[xyzcf]

I did not reasonate with Vicki Stark's book. Somehow, it didn't fit what I was experiencing.

From my understanding, narcissism is usually diagnosed in early adulthood...you don't suddenly become one later in life. It is a true psychiatric diagnosis.

We question what is happening with our spouses and certainly in MLC they display narcissistic characteristics and it's extreme...all about me, me, me...but when you look back, can you really say that your spouse has been this way throughout your entire marriage?

Certainly, we all have traits of narcissism. My husband and my daughter are both only children, so they were the center of attention perhaps as children, but I would not label either of them narcissistic.

And so, after too many pushes from the women in there, I left. I didn't feel heard or seen. I just felt pushed into some kind of club of angry women who're just bashing their H's, even many years after BD. But I did make some friends in there, and those women all doubt that their H's are narcissists.

Whatever you call their crisis, the impact on your life remains the same.....anger is part of our healing process but needs to be resolved at some point so we can enjoy life and not be consumed by how angry we are.

Sometimes we rewrite our story and we contemplate "what did I miss???"

I am very very sure that my husband loved me deeply for 34 years..until about a year before BD.  That is fact. Had he been a true narcissist, we would never had made it that many years, nor would I have the memories I have of the hundreds of ways he showed me his love......so the label doesn't apply in my case and I don't think it does in most of the stories I have read on. HS either.

[Inanna]

I was also struck by this…
“My H…has his ways of getting what he wants.. has a lot of anger within himself….some people at work are afraid of him”
Imho that’s quite a significant statement.
I’m not sure I have ever had anyone who has been afraid of me in my entire life, even if a few folks haven’t much liked me. Have you?

Yes, I was thinking about it some more, also because CEN came up in the Facebook group again.
And no, I really don't radiate that kind of "authority" towards people. Their first impression is always that I'm such a sweet girl/lady, haha. I can't recall anyone ever telling me they are scared of me. Or even feel intimidated. On the contrary, most feedback I get, also from clients is that people feel at ease with me quite quickly. It seems to be one of my strengths. And I would never abuse that either.

But I wrote something in the Facebook group and then some more via PM, because someone wanted to dive a little deeper...

I recognize that from my own H, this expectation (especially became visible when he slipped into MLC) that I should be able to read his mind so that he "doesn't have to spell it out" for me.
Someone else in the group mentioned to me that it's like expecting a mother to feel what her baby/child needs, which is natural for a mother to do, but cannot be expected from a spouse.
And yet, my H really believed it should be like that. He blamed me for not being a good wife because I could not read his mind. He even expected that I should always ask what he wants. And I'm like: huh? How can I know you want something if you don't say so?

It's really something he's trying to get from his mother, and no one can give him that. Even his mother can't because he is now an adult, not a baby or child anymore. He will have to deal with that "missing" and build a relationship with himself in which he feels confident enough and is emotionally mature enough to communicate his needs and feelings to other people, especially with his partner. It's a very vulnerable place to be in, to communicate like that, in contrast to expecting things, because in the first situation, you take responsibility for yourself and what you need; in the second situation, you just blame others for not getting what you want. In the first situation, there's a risk of being rejected; in the second situation, you reject others before they can reject you.

On some occasions, my H stated that he's aware of this and that he can't expect it from me, and his therapist is helping him to learn what he needs to learn. But apparently, he does not want to learn it with me. He'd rather be with the AP who "gives him exactly what he needs," like he's comparing her to me and concludes that it IS possible. Little does he know... it's limerence. Once that wears out, he will be exactly in the same spot once again. And so the pattern repeats itself.

And now I'm getting to the part where people get scared of my H:

Yeah, my husband seems to be crazy scared to share an opinion or a preference, if he doesn’t first know if it will match mine. It’s like he’s really avoidant of anything that smells like potential rejection. His sense of self must be so fragile, I now realize. But I didn’t understand it before BD.
And yes to the relationship problems. I didn’t know anything about his concerns and he couldn’t even put it into words either. It’s just so confusing.

Last time he expected me to just guess what was going on in his mind, was after BD, and I just became sooooo angry with him because he kept on saying that I’m the one who should know, while he just doesn’t give me ANYTHING to go on.

And last time we saw each other f2f, he screamed at me: “What do you expect from me?” And it just came out of the blue, because I was getting a bit emotional. It’s the other way around: it’s my question. And he doesn’t know what to expect from himself, so he’s just projecting it on me. He probably feels very, very powerless and helpless every time people want him to communicate his needs, preferences, and feelings.

And yet, he’s a hot-shot manager/consultant, leading a team of hundreds of people at work (250, if I’m not mistaken) and some people are even afraid of him because he’s so firm in his leadership. But same thing: people often need to guess and that’s why they get scared. He will always reject someone else first, before getting rejected himself.

I believe that being in a position of power like that, he really needs it to not feel like he’s just the failure his mother thinks he is. Nothing is ever good for her. Nothing he will ever do will be enough for her. And so, he has worked his butt off for many years to get where he is, just to have that feeling of power and control, that sense of accomplishment. And he is still going strong, even in MLC.

But deep down, he’s just a little child wanting to be seen, loved, and understood. But he’ll never get that from anyone else, until he starts connecting with himself, his inner child, and heal it, and get past his wound of rejection and starts being confident about communicating his needs and feelings.

So yeah, there is soooo much more nuance to the story. Not a black and white thing, definitely!

He always asks me: "What do you want?" and it's like he wants to somehow find out if what I want matches what he wants, but he just cannot communicate it. And then, in some way, it will turn out to be that thing that he wants, no matter what I want. That's so crazy, thinking about it now, because I was never really aware of this dynamic until now.
It's like this "game" of "how can I make my wife want what I want, so that it looks like she gets her way, but I'm actually getting my way." That seems to be what feels "safest" to him. But I stopped playing that game. And so, I became threatening to him. And he gave me the ultimate rejection: abandonment! (which was my CEN wound.)

It's manipulative, right? But I understand why he does it the way he does. Because it's very unsafe to ask for what he wants or share what he feels with his mother. And his mother has the exact same way of communicating, actually. She knows what she wants, and she knows how she wants to feel, but you don't know that, until it becomes your problem, and then everyone needs to comply... or otherwise... tantrum! But her way seems to be more malignant... like she really enjoys the drama, creating havoc and turmoil, setting people up against each other, mostly to deflect attention from her own issues and vulnerabilities, I guess.

My H doesn't really throw tantrums though (until now, when he's Monstering) but he can really create a stressful situation somehow so that I cave in and just give up to get rid of the stress and tension... I don't know, it feels that way, and it's very energy-draining, exhausting.
It's still not clear to me how he does it exactly. But it seems to come out from some kind of helplessness and powerlessness, and out of fear and frustration, I would guess. I think he really wants to be the "better" man, but he just doesn't know how. I would think he's highly frustrated almost all the time, not being able to find peace, because there's a rejection risk around every corner.

So yeah... I'm going to contemplate this some more, because it feels fresh... lots of little and big things to understand for me here...

[Treasur]

You might find it useful to consider how this dynamic made/makes you feel, regardless of why you think he does it.

If it’s any comfort at all, I suspect quite a few of us here recognise bits of that dynamic.

[Inanna]

You might find it useful to consider how this dynamic made/makes you feel, regardless of why you think he does it.

If it’s any comfort at all, I suspect quite a few of us here recognise bits of that dynamic.

Oh yes, definitely, I know how it made/makes me feel: like I'm being used. Like I'm just useful and then not useful anymore.
There was a time, like the first 18 years of our relationship, that I would allow myself to be used that way because I lacked that connection with myself and was desperately looking for external validation ("being of use" then became that validation)... so, in that regard, I used him as well. That was probably our trauma bond from the beginning, two CEN people together.

And then I stopped allowing it, after years of inner work and therapy, after going through my own rock bottom.
2019 was the year I recall I felt so good in my own skin for the first time in my life that I stopped enabling a lot of his behaviors, whatever good intentions he might have had.
2018 was the year his sexual abuse trauma resurfaced.

I mean, I can do the math. It went downhill for him and he couldn't get the same things from me anymore.
Corona lockdowns made it worse for him because he now had to work harder to get what he wanted/needed, work from home, not have the same impact on his co-workers with all the physical distance, being confronted with himself a lot and everything he was trying to get away from.

I thrived during corona because I finally felt free from all that pressure to perform (I really enjoyed all the time alone, away from the world, to further establish and strengthen my relationship with myself).

I became allergic to being used and to the level of stress, these situations brought on.
I guess, he felt he couldn't reach me in that way anymore, and started to detach emotionally.

Many triggers followed after his trauma resurfaced, probably also fueled by therapy, which isn't easy if you're avoidant and a runner.
Final triggers happened in 2022: his mother made his trauma all about her and a close colleague suddenly died in her sleep.
EA happened after that. Then PA happened. BD. BOOM!

He needs someone to use. I stopped allowing being used.
He threw me away like an old gadget. And got himself a new one before I knew I was discarded.
Now the AP is his next thing.

I never want to be in a relationship like that anymore. And I believe I won't be. Because I will recognize it when people try to use me. At least, I hope I will, sooner rather than later.
Of course, it would be great if H stepped up and broke free from that pattern as well. If I could, so can he. Time will tell.

[Inanna]

I did not reasonate with Vicki Stark's book. Somehow, it didn't fit what I was experiencing.

From my understanding, narcissism is usually diagnosed in early adulthood...you don't suddenly become one later in life. It is a true psychiatric diagnosis.

We question what is happening with our spouses and certainly in MLC they display narcissistic characteristics and it's extreme...all about me, me, me...but when you look back, can you really say that your spouse has been this way throughout your entire marriage?

Certainly, we all have traits of narcissism. My husband and my daughter are both only children, so they were the center of attention perhaps as children, but I would not label either of them narcissistic.

And so, after too many pushes from the women in there, I left. I didn't feel heard or seen. I just felt pushed into some kind of club of angry women who're just bashing their H's, even many years after BD. But I did make some friends in there, and those women all doubt that their H's are narcissists.

Whatever you call their crisis, the impact on your life remains the same.....anger is part of our healing process but needs to be resolved at some point so we can enjoy life and not be consumed by how angry we are.

Sometimes we rewrite our story and we contemplate "what did I miss???"

I am very very sure that my husband loved me deeply for 34 years..until about a year before BD.  That is fact. Had he been a true narcissist, we would never had made it that many years, nor would I have the memories I have of the hundreds of ways he showed me his love......so the label doesn't apply in my case and I don't think it does in most of the stories I have read on. HS either.

Aah, almost missed your wonderful reply, xyzcf!
Yes! That's it. Thank you for pointing that out. I also believe my husband loved me deeply. Cannot pinpoint exactly when he stopped loving me due to emotionally detaching, but it's probably also somewhere around 1 to 1,5 years before BD. Or it could be longer... it seems like a slow process of detaching.
He also did a lot to make me feel loved. He stood by me when I really went through a horrible time. I mean, he was my rock. I thought he would've ran many times, and he was still there, holding my hand through all of it.

Yet, at the same time, there were things like not being able to care for me when I was sick. It irritated him. But I had to care for him when he was sick. (But it's also in my nature.)
Those little things... I don't know. Not a black and white story, again.

So, the way I understand narcissism is that it's a spectrum?
And narcissistic personality disorder is scoring quite high on that spectrum?
But everyone has traits. And I think my H definitely has narcissistic traits that are now amplified in MLC.

So no, I don't think the label applies either, now that I went through this part of my story, reflecting. It would've been more obvious, not only to me.
I truly believe my H is capable of showing genuine empathy, which is something someone with NPD cannot, I believe. I don't believe my MIL has much empathy. She hasn't shown. Like ever. When she tries, it feels fake. You know? Like, they just copy what other people do, but there's no genuine feeling or emotion. She only cries when it's about herself and not getting what she wants or wanting people to feel sympathy for her because her life is so, so hard *boo hoo* No one's life is as hard as hers.

That's not my H at all.
I mean, we did years of refugee aid relief work as volunteers. Some of it was probably to boost his ego but still... he did a lot. He gave a lot. Without asking for anything in return. My MIL could not do such a thing. She tried, but she ended up complaining about the refugees not accommodating her too well. It's always about her.

So, I'm truly starting to see that my H's incapability to be emotionally mature is not because he does not have the potential, but because he just didn't learn how to. He doesn't lack the empathy. He has empathy but there's something preventing him from being the person he truly is. He lacks the skills and he has a deep fear of rejection. He has a fragile sense of self but there's a deep desire within him to get to know himself. I can feel it. I can see it.
My MIL doesn't have that desire. She just wants other people to accommodate the sense of self she thinks she has. And every time someone does not do exactly what she wants, she will make sure that person's life is either miserable, or everyone will know what a terrible person that is. Others have to work to keep her sense of self intact, even if it's entirely false.

My H has a strong desire to be himself but he doesn't know himself well enough to know what that is. He's on the search. He's seeking.
And I know he will find himself. I just don't know when that will be.

Okay... I know what I'm Standing for, haha. I do have faith, it seems 

[xyzcf]

You mentioned CEN:

"The definition of childhood emotional neglect is simply this: A parent’s failure to respond enough to a child’s emotional needs. When a child grows up in a household where emotions are not validated, accepted, or responded to enough, he learns how to put his own emotions aside.

A child who grows up this way becomes an adult who doesn’t value, trust, or even know his own feelings. This child may grow into a fully functional, outwardly strong adult. But he will feel a deep sense inside of himself that something is missing; that something isn’t right."

https://psychcentral.com/blog/the-face-of-childhood-emotional-neglect-cen#1

We often hear about MLCer's parents who are cold, don't show their feelings or emotions. They can be great parents in many ways...but lack "warmth" and the ability perhaps to physically connect...when you hug them, they do not hug back.

In my own thoughts about MLC, I often refer to Erik Erickson's stages of development. There are developmental tasks that need to be acheived during each stage, and if not achieved, they move on to the next stage without totally completing the previous one.

Living in an "emotionless" home where feelings are not expressed, certainly can stunt one's emotional development. The author of the article I posted also states that it can be generational and passed from one generation to the next.

I searched for the meaning of CEN and when I read this article it confirms what I know to be true about my husband's family...lovely people, no abuse, religious but his mom, who he was very close to, very cold.

It's what I figured out many years ago about him...and we say sometimes that the MLCer has to do this or they feel that they will die.

His reason for leaving me was that I am "too intense and talk too much"...that is the only reason he has ever given me ...and he's right...I am passionate and feel things deeply, pretty much an empath. I am a nurse. I grew up in a household where people "yelled" at one another and I remember his saying when we first married and we were having an argument, that he would not fight with me. After that, we seldom ever "fought" which is another commonality in the stories I see here.

I thought this meant that we were on the same page so much, and that we were so adult that we resolved any disagreements quietly.

People sometimes told me that I live life with an exclamation mark, which is true...he was always very even keeled......

We had a great marriage, lots of wonderful times and I think he was drawn to my enthusiasm for life...certainly ending our marriage after 32 years because I was "too intense and talked too much" really makes no sense does it?

Thanks for bringing the issue of CEN up. I have worked with abused children for years and know how severe the damage can be. In my husband's family, looking in you would think they were "perfect" but every family has its flaws and dysfunctions and we certainly carry the impact of our families into our adult life.

[Inanna]

"The definition of childhood emotional neglect is simply this: A parent’s failure to respond enough to a child’s emotional needs. When a child grows up in a household where emotions are not validated, accepted, or responded to enough, he learns how to put his own emotions aside.

A child who grows up this way becomes an adult who doesn’t value, trust, or even know his own feelings. This child may grow into a fully functional, outwardly strong adult. But he will feel a deep sense inside of himself that something is missing; that something isn’t right."

https://psychcentral.com/blog/the-face-of-childhood-emotional-neglect-cen#1

Thank you for mentioning this definition and link, xyzcf.

And I'm a bit similar, I think. I'm also quite passionate, have a lot of emotional depth (and I'm not afraid of the hard and uncomfortable feelings and emotions)n and I consider myself also an empath, got that feedback from others a lot, also. I thought my H was also like that, but it seems that he was just mirroring a lot of my emotional energy, I think. I was mostly the one who would express myself this way, but it never really happened through his initiative. He just went along. But looking back, it was mostly me. And now he calls it "my drama," which hurts, of course.

It's not drama. Not in the sense like his mother. It's an emotionally rich life with depth and it's often confrontational, because I don't avoid hard conversations. I used to, but I don't anymore. That was also part of my healing process after my rock bottom: I learned to fully embrace my emotions and feelings, feel them, express them. I'm not perfect, I also get emotionally reactive at times, but I'm definitely not "cold" or "distant" in that way. On the contrary.

My mother, though, is someone who I would consider "cold" and "distant" and that was my CEN wound. But she grew a lot in the past years. She had her wake-up call when she had breast cancer. She worked on herself, and I believe she resolved some of her own CEN trauma (which was much more severe than mine, but I do believe in intergenerational trauma).

But it seems that what my H had with his parents is even worse than my mom and I experienced. My grandmother was a loving woman, took great care of her children, but she had a difficult time when her husband, my grandfather, neglected her early on in their marriage and she couldn't stop getting pregnant. She only wanted two children, but the second pregnancy was twins (my mother and aunt), and then she got another child later on, so 4 in total with no help from my grandfather. He was a serial cheater but they stayed married until he died. She profoundly hated him.
It had a huge impact on my mother. And especially also my youngest aunt because she has BPD. She made our lives hell after my grandmother died. The family is now divided. Haven't seen my aunt in years.

My grandmother owned up to some of her mistakes. It enabled my mother to heal some of it before she died.
But what happens with my H and his parents: they are far from healing. My in-laws will probably never heal in this lifetime, let alone, own their mistakes. My FIL will die of cancer soon, and he's just making things worse because of a lack of awareness and insight in self. And now he's just getting too sick to even bother.
Both are truly toxic but my H is currently trapped. He can't seem to get away from them (emotionally, I mean).

After BD, first thing he did was go home to his parents and they took care of him, even though he was going from Airbnb to Airbnb until he found his apartment. But he sees them multiple times a week and his mother is doing his laundry. I mean, this is the woman he truly hated in the years before BD. And now his father putting that responsibility on him to take care of his mother after his passing... boy   

On top of CEN that is still unresolved, also being sexually abused by a male friend of the family my FIL let into the house for 6 years at a time (!!!)... I mean... it's just heartbreaking. I just can't imagine how to survive something like that. Somehow, my H survived. But because it's unresolved, now life is making him deal with it after all. Limerence will only hold it back for so long. He can't keep on running.

I know deep down that my H is also an empath to a certain extent, and that he's a passionate being with the potential of emotional richness and depth. I think he really immersed himself in it through me, through my emotional depth and richness, but the moment it's about him, he shuts down, obviously. And since he emotionally detached from me, it's now a huge threat to him, and he now calls it "drama." Gosh, he hasn't even realized the "drama" he will get from the AP, lol. That will be nothing like mine 

But yeah... it shows with his parents; his father being so emotionally avoidant... anything negative, he can't handle. At all. Wants to change the subject or just walks away from a conversation. He can't allow himself to feel anything that isn't neutral or positive. I think it scares him. I believe (and my H thinks so, too) a lot happened with my FIL in his childhood that he still can't address. There might be sexual abuse involved also, because he lived for a long time in a very strict Jesuit boarding school that didn't have a great reputation (child abuse was definitely part of it).
And his mother just thrives on drama. So weird that they're still together. Maybe she's a lot less dramatic when she's alone with him. Drama starts when people enter into her life. She wants to be in full control all the time. She's very negative, draining like an energy vampire. Maybe my FIL doesn't want to address any negativity because he has to put up with hers all the time. Always complaining, always blaming someone for something. So exhausting.

It's never about my H unless she gains something from it. Like when he has success at work; she uses it to brag to other people. But she will never tell him how proud she is of him. She just can't speak the words. He has no chance. It will never be enough for her.
My FIL has spoken those words to my H, but he doesn't stand up to his mother, he doesn't defend his son. His mother is always right. So what do those words mean? Nothing. Because when it comes to those important moments, my H will always be on his own. My FIL always backs up my MIL.

And him dying will not help. But this might sound a bit strange... I think it could be a turning point for my H when his father dies. It could change the whole FOO dynamic. My H has a huge chance here to stop this from being passed on to the next generation. I truly believe that. But whether he will take that chance or not... I can't say. Time will tell... I can only pray for him and trust that God has a plan.

[Inanna]

Gonna write a little more... It helps. It feels therapeutic.
Even though I can't be sure of all this. It's just what I feel. But I can't see in my H's head, nor in my in-laws heads.
Still, it feels good to get this out of my system. It's like through writing pieces of the puzzle fall into place and I get a little bit of a release; things are getting processed in this way.
So, lol, if anyone reads through all of this, bravo, haha. I know it's a whole lot!

—

When I re-read what I wrote in my previous post, I started to understand how essential it feels to my H to get that kind of validation he misses from his parents.
There was a moment, not long before the affair started, that my H did express this after he went to have a therapy session. His longing for true validation, and that he couldn't get it from me. He didn't really blame me, but there was an expectation that I should be able to give him more. We had a discussion about it.

But I felt like he was expecting something of me that I truly couldn't give him. Whatever I did, it wasn't enough.
I'm not someone who constantly validates and compliments people. I'm quite selective with the words "I love you" because when I say it, I want to really mean it. And I feel that if it becomes a habit of saying it, it just becomes words... a habit. You stop feeling it. You're so used to hearing it that it doesn't hold the same energy anymore. But I always say it back when my H said it. And then it sometimes feels so icky because he said it constantly but without feeling, without the emotion, and so when I said it back it often felt like... I needed to to prevent him from feeling rejected. But it's hard to put feelings to a habit like that. It goes by so fast also... I'm sure he didn't even register the meaning of the words anymore because it became a habit.

I tried to explain that to my H. I value those words. But he says it constantly, and he even kept on saying it when he was already in the affair.
I mean, what does it mean? Because, at BD, I got the words: ILYBINILWY. And in the week after, when he came to collect some things at the house, I asked him again: do you still love me? And the message changed to: no. So... "I love you" even though he added "but I'm not in love with you" at first, didn't mean anything anymore.

And later, in Monstering, it became: "I don't feel anything for you anymore. Nothing!!!"

I don't play with words that way.
I make sure people can FEEL my love, rather than using words all the time, because words are — in my opinion — quite easy. You can say it but don't mean it.

He didn't understand when we had that conversation. He said that he needed me to say it all the time. That I needed to say how proud I was of him and he wanted me to validate him more with words. And I felt like I was suffocating. Like, he was just expecting me to be his mother, I guess. A validation that runs so deep, that only a mother could give that to her baby. The ultimate validation. I don't think he really realized what he actually wanted, and that words would never be enough, even if I would seriously step up my game.

But I can't.
I'm a grown woman with my own identity, my own life, my own feelings. I'm not a mother even. I don't have children. I have dogs and cats and chickens, and I love them dearly. I might show something to my animals that my H wants for himself from me, too.
But my H is a grown man. With his own identity, his own life, his own feelings. He needs to be his own person, foremost. I cannot give him that co-dependency. My animals are dependent on me. But my H needs to be his own person. And I can love him as a wife and as his best friend, but I cannot "mother" him like I mother my fur and feathered babies, like I would mother my children, if I had any.

It felt so very suffocating to me, what he was trying to get from me during that conversation. I felt something shifted that day. Deep down, I knew something happened to us in that moment. I think he probably made a decision more consciously then to detach from me. I think, after that conversation, he opened himself up to other women. I think he was then ready to find it elsewhere and that he wasn't to hold back anymore.

He had several EAs during the course of our marriage, but I know he held back. He never crossed the ultimate line. He always worked his way back to me. He understood very well that he was playing with fire and kept himself in check. But this time... it was different. He was done.

But I still gave him the benefit of the doubt. I just thought he was truly struggling. He needed to sort himself out and I trusted that this time, he would also work his way back to me. But he didn't. He already left the marriage emotionally. The months after that conversation just went from bad to horrible. That was about 6 months before BD, I believe, somewhere in April 2023. The affair started as an EA, I now know, in May 2023, and by September, it became a PA. BD was on October 7.

Sometimes, when I have my darkest moments, it's hard not to think it's me. "If only I'd given him the validation he needed..."
But I know it's not true. No one can give him that validation. I like to see the AP trying, but she will fail, too. It's just a matter of time.
And he knows it. He stated it several times, during that conversation ("I know I need to validate myself more and that I can't expect it from you/others"), and after BD, and in his e-mails about his therapy process. His therapist is working with him on this matter, he said several times.

Yet... he just continues with the AP and continues to blame me for the "failed marriage," in which I had no say at all.
It's so twisted, this MLC, and everything that comes with it.

I can't have a man child as a husband. I'm done. It's so disrespectful toward who I am as a person. It's so emotionally immature.
I'm truly a very loving and warm person. People around me have no issue recognizing my love. I have plenty. I have so much love to give, that I'm still Standing! I mean, who does that after all this and everything that is yet to come with all his craziness? Lol.

It's not a lack of self-respect. It's love. Agape.
But I don't do "you need to love me this way." That's his broken way of not being able to receive my love.

He misses out on so much. I truly hope he will be able to heal, become whole, and open his heart to receiving, probably for the first time in his life.
And I can only hope he'll be open to receiving my love one day. But there's no guarantee. Sometimes, people are just too deep into avoiding that primal pain of missing out on a mother's genuine love, that they might never come to that place. Sometimes, life is just too short. Or the self-destruction is just too strong.
I need to let go. Let him have his process, his crisis, his life, his pain, his ... whatever it is. Plenty of people are willing and able to receive my love. That's my focus now. And loving myself, of course.
And I pray for him. Maybe some of that love will radiate on him through my prayers, who knows. God knows, and I trust God.

[xyzcf]

Sexual abuse is often mentioned in stories that are written here. I think many more men here  than we realize have been sexually abused...they block it out perhaps, may not even be aware.

We just don't know the impact that life has had on our spouses.

The intergenerational things...there has been more research lately on how trauma can change a person's DNA and that this can be transferred to their offspring...even many generations in the past. So some of our responses might be due to "stored memories" in our DNA. The study of this phenomena is called epigentics.

From:Epigenetic transmission of Holocaust trauma: can nightmares be inherited?
Natan Pf Kellermann

"The Holocaust left its visible and invisible marks not only on the survivors, but also on their children. Instead of numbers tattooed on their forearms, however, they may have been marked epigenetically with a chemical coating upon their chromosomes, which would represent a kind of biological memory of what the parents experienced. as a result, some suffer from a general vulnerability to stress while others are more resilient. Previous research assumed that such transmission was caused by environmental factors, such as the parents' childrearing behavior. New research, however, indicates that these transgenerational effects may have been also (epi) genetically transmitted to their children. Integrating both hereditary and environmental factors, epigenetics adds a new and more comprehensive psychobiological dimension to the explanation of transgenerational transmission of trauma. Specifically, epigenetics may explain why latent transmission becomes manifest under stress. "

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24029109/

I know that if this had not happened to me, I would find MLC a fascinating study...actually, when I step away from the pain and destruction it caused in my own life, I do find it fascinating.

Understanding possible causes helps me. My father was a POW during WWII, had severe PTSD....my thoughts are that my own trauma causesda releasing of some of his trauma in the way my body responded.

My husband uses a word now that "triggers" me...if my voice gets louder or I am even the tiniest bit excited (and he's done this to my daughter as well" he'll firmly state "calma"..... it truly is bizarre.

I can only pray for him and trust that God has a plan.

This will allow you the peace you need to find "joy" and truly live a fulkl life...with or without him....our response to this can be very valuable to our children.

[Inanna]

That is so fascinating, xyzcf!

My H's grandfather fought on the Eastern Front during WWII and was quite highly ranked. I know my H wants to know more about his life. His grandfather was sentenced to work camp in the mines after the war and he completely turned around, making friends with people who were seen as "less than" by the Nazis. He did his penitence.
Apparently, there are a lot of documents about his grandfather's life and history available but my H needs permission from his mother to get access, because she is still the living heir. But she refuses. She's very much ashamed of her father and that part of the family history. Another pain point between my H and his mother.

My H has experienced his grandfather's PTSD from close by. And how his grandfather met his wife, my H's "second mother," as he calls her, is truly a romantic story. It was after the war, and she's Hungarian. She lost her parents and as an orphan, came to our country and got adopted by a family over here. She met my H's grandfather here when he was doing his penitence. She was my H's everything before she died. She died when the sexual abuse started, so with that trauma, he also lost his only confidant, the only person he believed truly "mothered" him. I think that's also been a trauma for him. His grandfather died even earlier. They were both quite young, still.

So many factors play into this, right? It's impossible to know everything.
Yet, with every bit I'm learning, it makes more sense. It helps me understand. It helps me cultivate more empathy, even though I'm emotionally detaching. What are we without our empathy?

Maybe someday, I'll write a book about this... about everything I learned.
People already invited me to do so, after they started reading my blog (and in the meantime, I probably shared more on here than on my blog, haha. Need to translate some of the stuff I posted here).

It may sound weird but I'm actually already living a fulfilling life. BD threw my life upside down, definitely, it was very traumatic and the grieving process is still at the forefront of my life... and yet, it hasn't broken me, nor broken my life. I get fulfillment from the richness of life, from giving and receiving love, from genuine connection and being able to be of service to others, so in a way, that only enhanced after BD (of course, the first two months after BD were truly horrible and I couldn't see it like that back then). I mean, I thought my life was already quite fulfilling before BD, but now looking back, it's way more fulfilling now. Before BD, I was still very much feeling "oppressed" (for lack of a better word) by what was going on with my H.

I can actually say that BD and MLC has given my life even more purpose, even though it's not really my crisis, like it's a crisis to my H. It was inevitable. It was part of what needed to happen for me to continue what I was already moving towards before this all happened.

Don't know if there are other people in here who feel something similar. I'm sometimes hesitant expressing this because people find it hard to believe so soon after BD, or because they're very much struggling when BD was a lot longer ago. It's not a competition. It's just that... I don't know... it changed a lot for me in a positive way, like it was meant to happen so that I could continue to grow, and if it didn't happen, I would've probably come to a standstill or even gotten sick (physically, there was definitely something going on before BD, but that all disappeared after BD). I believe that what I felt internally was mostly what was going on within my H, and I needed to get away from that, otherwise, I would've gotten severely hurt myself.

I think this is what God tries to tell me now, that it's a good thing that it happened and I do not need to worry; everything will be fine, no matter the outcome. I think God wanted to show me how strong and powerful I really am. That he wanted me to be able to pick the fruits of my labor, all the inner work I did in all those years. He wanted me to move forward because I was on the right path, but my H was jeopardizing that and needs to fight his own battles now.

I do worry about my H from time to time (and I'm not the only one. I have many conversations with friends who know my H, too), that he is in the process of getting sick; that what I was experiencing before BD, being still in his energy, were signs of that. Like, hormonal imbalances, for instance, inflammation of the gut, being bloated, and this very deep anger that seems to mess with body temperature, bladder inflammation, and blood pressure. It all felt so unhealthy. I thought I was going into perimenopause, but after BD, and going through the initial shock and most extreme emotions, things settled quickly and all I felt is gone now. I was surprised. I believe I picked up on his inner turmoil and since he's not living at home anymore (he left the day after BD), I'm not subject to that energy/vibration anymore. But when I do have to meet him in person, it comes back, I can still feel it very easily. It's very draining also. I'm truly exhausted after just meeting with him briefly (fortunately, it doesn't happen a lot anymore). Really, I would not want to be the AP at this time (but they still have a long-distance relationship at this point), and this can't be healthy for his very sick father either... Everyone who comes in contact with my H probably doesn't feel right, not knowing what that is exactly... (although, many people may not have that awareness.)

Are there more LBSs who have a similar experience?