[limitless]

Thundarr,

BINGO! (To quote OP)

For my part, I think this guy is spot on about what he writes and I think MWD would agree.  I can relate to the woman as my W has mentioned me being self-righteous and angry (as have many here).  Perhaps we do have to own our part in causing this.  My W is now surrounding herself with people who see her as an intellectual and is pushing herself to complete her degree. Perhaps this really is a reaction to me. What if deep down she DOES want us to work out and I unknowingly prevent it? 

Lots of thinking to do......

And when I say Bingo - what I mean to say is that I think, should you continue on this path, have hit the nail on the head.  My comment is not related to the "flaws" that you state in your paragraph that you may or may not have - it relates to what Ready stated in his earlier post.  What you are commenting on in your post is Mirror work - something EVERYONE needs to do in order to improve him or herself.  (Not for your spouse, not for anyone else - but YOU).

At Bomb Drop my H "kindly" pointed out all my flaws - and, as with anyone, there were some truths intermingled with the re-written history.  When I read back into my threads - there was a stage that I went through where I felt tremendous guilt and anger at myself for "causing" this.  And, as DGU so aptly reminded us - we did NOT cause this.  This would have happened - regardless.  Did we contribute?  Maybe.....maybe not.  But, when I look at my H - the issues he is avoiding are issues he had WAY before he met me.

I guess one of the things that I've learned "thanks" to my H's MLC  - is that I had/have some flaws....some that I really didn't like about myself.  And, I learned that I could do something about these.  For a while - I beat myself up about them.  Now, I see them for what they were.....some bad traits that I choose not to have any more....and I am able to catch myself when I find myself falling into old bad habits.  My relationships with my friends, family, kids and myself have all improved.  I am actually learning to like myself and no longer feel that, should someone else not like me, that there is something wrong with me.

You know what?  Everyone doesn't have to like me....and that is completely okay.  It no longer damages my self worth......that is HUGE for me.

Did I make all the "mistakes"?  Sure.  Just like everyone.  Did I do some mirror work on those things?  Absolutely!  Do I blame my husband for my lot in life?  No.  Not anymore.  Except for those rare occassions when I have my pity party (they are shorter, now ) - I realize that the things he does are to HIMSELF.  It's a shame that he has separated himself from his own kids...I know that it is part of the script....but it still is very unfortunate.  But, there is NOTHING that I can do  - except be there for the kids as the best MOM that I can be.

Thundarr - spend the time in your own liminality - thinking.  It is SO worth the time.  And, some time later, you will find that being happy and finding joy is a choice.....that you can make - regardless of your W's situation.  Continue to work on yourself.  We are in control of our own situations.......that can be overwhelming or freeing....it's just in the way that you look at it.

limitless

[hobo1]

S&D
I know exactly how you feel.  By the time of BD anything I said or did was too late.
It would have been nice and rational if they told us what they felt.

We are not mind readers.   We didn't cause the MLC but some of their spew is accurate, but a normal marriage would not end like this.

[WarriorPriestess]

yes of course I see the controlling, fingerwagging behaviours, but so many of us do that at the beginning

I agree with this statement as well.  Just as there seem to be similar characteristics in many MLCers, there are certain personality traits that seem to be common among many LBS posters.  It's been a topic of discussion recently on several threads.

[StandandDeliver]

T&L - I agree that condemning the wife is not the answer either, I remember feeling exactly the way she does and I still have my moments. I just agree with the overall advice from Andrew, which seems to be that the wife is so focused on how she was wronged that she does not understand that her own behaviour will only exacerbate the running behaviour. I think the response by Andrew does not seem to fully understand the sheer depth of confusion and bizarre behaviour that we are often confronted with at BD by our MLCers. Nonetheless, having read a bit of the other content on the site, I do think much of what he is writing is generally in line with the beliefs on the forum. He seems to be generally more in favour of saving relationships if possible. I do not know if he is a MLC expert like RCR, but I do think he understands infidelity and relationship break downs quite well. Also, I think sometimes those of us on this site become so ensconsed in thinking about MLC that we actually forget that it is a real person we are discussing - our MLCers become almost stereotypes of themselves. I don't think it hurts to remind ourselves that whatever the cause, our MLCers REALLY do believe that they NEED to get out of the relationship, that we are at fault and that we do not understand them (ok they are often right about the final bit!). His point that we need to accept that 2 people are departing a marriage with different, but equally valid points of view, is hard to hear when we are screaming  but it is MLC, if you know what I mean. Still, the advice on here is that while we have been wronged, there is a requirement to work on ourselves and to consider where there might be some credence to our ex's perceptions of us, so it is not so different after all.

[kikki]

When you've been together for a quarter of a century, and maybe have children together, house, business and any number of other things and combined hopes and dreams.  And when the person who has been so close to you throughout all of this starts to withdraw, you feel it.
You ask what's going on for them - and they fob you off.  You are confused.
They detach some more - you ask again, and you get the same fobbing off.

They get angrier and angrier, and spend less and less time with you and your kids (if you have them), and doing all of the things that they used to do - and then, the piece de resistance - they announce that they are leaving!!!  Just like that.  And they go.
Of course they are going to think we are controlling when they want to escape and deny responsibility for the life that we had together.  It's their perception of our survival response. 

Who in their right mind wouldn't be asking 'controlling' questions?   Who wouldn't be trying to make sense of the situation and ask them to explain themselves.  Who would just say 'that's nice honey - off you go.  Have fun'.
I believe this is often a chicken and egg thing.  Which came first?  Their MLC behaviours and detachment, or our 'control'?

I know for sure if the boot was on the other foot, my H definitely would have been exhibiting the same LBS behaviours that we all did.

About the only complaint that my H gave was that we had a bad marriage, and that I was controlling.
I heard this for a very long time.
Recently - he said he knows that is not true.  He knows I wasn't controlling throughout our marriage.  He knows that he gave me a lot of reasons to become 'controlling'.  I was trying to hold my family together. It is a natural human response when your previously sane spouse threatens the family structure that they used to hold very dear to them.

Having said that - there have been plenty of areas that I have worked on for myself. 
And - if I ever come across MLC behaviours again - I'll know what is happening, and I'll be able to say 'that's nice honey - off you go, have fun', and leave him to it, as we have learnt to do.  He'd then have to come up with a better excuse for leaving me.  Too happy perhaps?

[Stillpraying]

Well said Kikki.

[BirdSoul]

True story: Shortly after BD, I gave my H a copy of Marshall's excellent book, "I Love You, But I Am Not In Love With You." (This, by the way, was one of the more rational things I did.) Months later, after H had vanished, he sent me a letter saying that he read the the book and it had "really resonated with him." I thought this was hysterical, because Marshall is pro-marriage and his book is aimed at SAVING marriages that have evolved into the ILUB stage. Marshall even says that "if worse comes to worse" and you feel you must divorce, there is a "right" way to do it, which involves having compassionate interactions with your spouse. My H refused to work on or discuss our marriage at all and divorced my from afar with zero interactions. We went through the entire divorce process remotely through lawyers! Zilch compassion. So either H never really read the book or only read the parts that "validated" his breakdown! I guess that was a big backfire! But the book is still good and I recommend it for LBS. Although I do think Marshall doesn't "get" MLC the way RCR does.

BirdSoul

[BonBon]

Kikki, well said.

I was also called controlling.  And then I was told, no, you aren't controlling at all.  So which is it?
Surely I tried to control the situation when my H suddenly decided he wasn't happy and wasn't into our marriage.  If I were on a sinking boat, I would also try to stop the water from rushing in.  What, you're supposed to just sit around and let your whole life fall apart?

Controlling is the tried and true mantra of the MLCer.  No different from a teenager. 
"Controlling" is code when an MLCer is ticked off because they want to do something they know they should not do, and the grown up (LBS) steps in and tries to prevent them from causing harm.
Just like a teenager.

Oh, and in the interest of full disclosure, I did something stupid...I didn't read the post from the beginning so I don't know what this expert said...all I know is that when I hear "controlling", my hackles get raised.  If I had a nickle for every MLCer who called an LBS controlling, I'd be at home with someone cleaning my house and doing my nails and bringing me champagne...

Bon

[honour]

Controlling is the tried and true mantra of the MLCer.  No different from a teenager. 

I wasn't called controlling. I wasn't called anything. When she returned to the country after BD and I asked "why?" she developed a soar throat and was unable to speak. Seriously. I received no explanation other than these "things happen" and "I need my own space."

The MLCer is capable of doing their own fair share of control.

The more a read of MLC and relationships and of this notion of control I wonder now if it was not me that was being controlled. I have been living a single life since 4th Dec 2010. At the beginning the heartbreak was so immense, so crushing and so mind numbingly bad it was a challenge to put one foot in front of the other. Eighteen months on and...I say this rather tentatively, I think I may be finding my own thoughts. All the things I would accept and compromise on because...well, that's what love does, right? Love puts others before self...doesn't it? I now wonder if they were aspects of her control.

I've said before how she had a mischievous sense of humour. Now I wonder if that really was what it was? What I perceived as humour others might have perceived as put downs. Was I being kept in my place?

Eighteen months of detachment and zero contact gives one time to think. I'm not sure if I'm rewriting history or I am seeing history with greater clarity. With more time I will work it out.

I'd be at home with someone cleaning my house and doing my nails and bringing me champagne...

You mean your H doesn't do this for you? My W told me it was normal in every marriage for the H to do this. DOH! 

honour

ok, the first part of this post was a serious point but I just couldn't resist the obvious gag. Hey! I must be in recovery, I can joke about this madness now

[hobo1]

Honour, my BD was also Dec of 2010, and I too believe that I was the one who was being controlled.  My ex was never verbal, she was passive aggressive.  When she didn't like things, she would withdraw and ignore people, and make them feel uncomfortable.

She, in retrospect, made me 'abandon' my family.  My sister, whom I was closest to, rarely visit with us, same goes with my uncle and my aunt, who were like my parents...  She would attend functions, but withdraw.  Over time, sensing the discomfort, I avoid going to places where she would withdraw.

I would stop going out with friends over the years because when I came home, there was this withdrawal... I don't want to say there will be hell to pay, because there wasn't...  she would just not be as nice, and not talk...  that is passive aggressive...  she had me whipped and controlled, and I didn't even know it.

I knew it was there, but accepted it, and didn't even acknowledge it.  I wanted to avoid conflict.  She also wanted to avoid conflict because I believe she has an avoidant personality disorder....  I love her, but in retrospect, do I want a relationship like that,?  Especially since she divorced me....  Things to ponder....  the life of the LBSer is not easy.