[LisaLives]

Stayed, I think you're right I might be taking my role as a mother a little too seriously.  My H left just after we got through the worst of the mistaken cancer diagnosis.  Our kids never recovered from the scare, and in fact the "healthy" son we took for granted was the one most hurt.  He barely got over the fact he almost lost a brother, then he lost his dad.  He had a horrible year, I know he was severely depressed.  He failed ALL his classes, so his status in high school is at risk, and he has had more than a couple panic/anxiety attacks surrounding all this.  So, I am feeling a little overprotective. 

But, their therapists and mine have warned me NOT to talk about MLC with them--unless their dad one day tells them differently, they need to respect that he is TRYING to make the best choices for them--I don't know, they're experts, right, I have no reason to think they're wrong.  I have told them I think their Dad is depressed and depression runs in his family and depressed people don't make the best choices.  But, he counters with telling them that she makes him so happy and their lives will be so much better with her--without realizing how much it hurts them...  I guess I just don't have faith my H will ever get out of the tunnel.  He has given up so much I fear there is no going back.  I hope I'm wrong, for his sake, but unfortunately I know more cases of men who die unhappy with their OW than ones that reconcile with their families--I figure the odds are not in my favor, so I should face the possibility. 

[Dontgiveup]

Is it possible that the cases you know are ones where the LBS had already closed the door to reconciliation?  That's one of the common reasons why some do stay with the OM/OW.

I am not saying anyone should have a false hope.....and facing the possibility he will not want to reconcile eventually is fine, but what your husband is doing has some high odds against it working out.  Having an affair, marrying the affair partner, marrying so soon after a divorce, a second marriage, children involved.......RCR has written about how these things are strikes against it working out......and consider the information below from Frank Pittman, who has written about affairs and relationships.
Pittman wrote:
Most of the deserted husbands and wives do get to choose whether or not to return to the old marriage.”

You may decide you don't want your husband back once he gets through the tunnel.....that may be more common than not.  But the odds are he will make it through the tunnel and odds are heavy that his upcoming marriage will not work out.

[Buggy31]

Now, those of you that say you don't have to endure or put up with any kind of abuse; are being truthful; but I endured a great deal of abuse; staying married, at least on my end; and from my experience; without some pain of some kind, there is NO gain of any kind; if you're that insistent that you'll not put with up with ANY kind of pain out of this crisis, you'll get what you want; you'll get left alone, completely; but, again, based on my own experience, you must stay within conflict in order to grow in another aspect of this crisis.

Yes!  This is important.  My children and I went to a local library before I was to drop them off with my H.  I was having quite the day with LOTS of anger...and wouldn't you know it we walked right into a drum circle.  A lovely man named Mr. Dearheart (made me think of SL)  was leading a group of children in a drum circle. The rhythms soothed me before I would have to see H which by the way for me just altogether sucks lately.  Anyway before I left Mr. Dearheart made the comment that the safest place in a storm is right in the MIDDLE of it...so now when I feel like running always I remember this. 

Also heard something else tonight which is that you DON't move closer to GOD without pain and suffering.  It's amist a crisis where you have the opportunity to grow....now some will run...like our dear MLCers...but the speaker said you can't outrun god...

HUGS
BUGS

[truth_seeker]

Also heard something else tonight which is that you DON't move closer to GOD without pain and suffering.  It's amist a crisis where you have the opportunity to grow....now some will run...like our dear MLCers...but the speaker said you can't outrun god..

Well said Buggy!

TS

[HeartsBlessing]

I truly believe that staying in a marriage while my H parades around another woman in what used to be my place is a horrible example for my teenage boys.  It is telling them I am a doormat and that the "institution of marriage" itself is so important that I will allow myself to be humiliated by a strange man that has taken over their father's body.  And in some ways, I think it contributes to the feeling that you need to work on yourself.  I don't totally buy that.

I am not perfect, and sure we had issues in our marriage, but the key is I was always willing to work on them.  I was not the person he says he needed, but he was not always the person I needed.  In a mature relationship we would have honored the commitment and worked around those things, but he bailed.  No one can meet everyone's needs, so all R's are constant negotiations, whether it's romantic, family, or just friends, we all give and take and maintain some kind of balance.  But he bailed.

There are lots of things I could work on, but I was never not okay with the person I saw in the mirror (and I don't mean an actual mirror, cause let's not get into body image issues... ;-)).  I am a good person, and I was a good wife.  And I truly believe that when I look at the fact that I have five years left with my boys, I have to think very carefully about what I do with the examples I am going to give them in the most important years of their life.  And I agree that if I knew that H were going to come out of this okay, standing and being strong and true would be perfect.  But there are no guarantees and having them watch him treat me like s$%^ and in the end still walk back to OW, would be far worse.  The medium, of divorce and watching me rebuild a positive life without him is the safest option for my kids—it is the only one I CONTROL.

Truthseeker hit the nail on the head with her reply; and you need to separate your personal feelings from what your husband is doing, LisaLives.

You're taking it personally, internalizing; and it has NOTHING do with you; and everything to do with him; if it hadn't been you, it would have been someone else.

What he is doing is NOT a reflection on you, or the example you may choose to set for your children.

And I'm going to tell you something from having been married, and am still married to a man whose parents divorced when he was seven years old; he was MORE damaged and traumatized from the divorce; than he would have been had they been fighting all the time, like MY parents did...I SAW up close and personal the guilt, the shame and the deep trauma my husband was STILL carrying around after over 30 some odd years after his parents divorced right into his MLC. 

This was the FINAL issue he had so much trouble facing; and it took him an additional SIX years to really start facing; but on top of that, God had to intervene, and allow circumstances to cause him to break his ankle; in order to bring him DOWN, helpless as the seven year old he was regressed to, emotionally, in order to FORCE him to face himself fully; and it still took him one more year to finish it all out.   

I have learned a great deal from watching and observing him; his mother had discovered his dad was having an affair; and went right on, and filed for a legal separation, when he was 4, THEN, she got the final divorce from his dad, when he was 7...so she ran from what his dad did; never faced herself, NOR did the work; and though she never remarried; she kept trying to cause a division between my husband and his dad, instead of staying OUT of their business.  It was definitely MLC; and his dad was dealing with the issues surrounding HIS parent's divorce when HE was small.....so the cycle was continuing there.

IMHO, NO matter how old a child is; divorce does do DEEP emotional damage; and the CHILDREN are the ones who get the brunt of the MOST damage, no matter how you, as an adult, might justify it, UNLESS you're in fear of your life because of physical abuse.

Sometimes God will lead a LBS out of the marriage; but most times, He won't; and the reasoning comes more clearly down the line; when the LBS has attained a greater understanding of themselves, AND of the crisis itself. 

You don't even really know how the children will react to a divorce between the two of you; REGARDLESS of the reason...from what I have observed within my husband, I'm thinking it will damage them in ways you'd never expect. 

No matter what a child will say; they ALWAYS feel they are at fault when Mom and Dad divorce; they feel they are the ones that are deficient; yet, they live in fear of being honest about their REAL feelings in that aspect; because they FEAR losing one or both parent's love; and they don't really have a choice, anyway; so they just go along......and it's sad that people are so quick to get a divorce, regardless of which side it comes from....I came to understand, that there is hope in every situation, as long as you still love the MLC spouse; and the damage they do; CAN be gotten past; but you have to be willing to do that kind of work to get there; as it's not easy.

Food for thought; and don't think for one minute, I haven't faced that crossroad of wanting to get a divorce; I did; and through someone the Lord sent to me; I was influenced away from making a life changing decision like that.

It's not my job to judge people for what they do; it's their life; but no one ever said life would be easy as pie for the whole time we are down here on this earth; trouble will always come in one form or another; and when it comes down to it; you will learn what's set before you, or keep cycling until you do learn, or die, whichever comes first...and I hadn't seen anybody get out of learning what THEIR part is within the breakdown of EVERY marriage; and yes, Ma'am, you, too, have your part; no matter what you say.

On the other hand, I really think the reason you don't "buy" working on yourself, is because, like most people; you are afraid of what you will see if you are totally no holds barred honest within yourself; I know I was; and I had your attitude once in the early days.....I asked why it was ME who had to do the work, when HE was the one who was doing wrong?   I thought I was just fine and dandy.

Turned out I wasn't; I had my own part in the breakdown of our marriage; issues that I needed to look at, growing, changing, and becoming; and it took YEARS to accomplish everything I needed to for and within myself.

I've said this many times; and I'll say it again; if you think you don't have anything that needs working on; you're most likely the one with the BIGGEST issue within; because EVERYBODY has got baggage; no one is an exception..even those who have learned some of Life's Lessons, still have MORE to learn.

If both people within the marriage were all they were supposed to be and had been; the crisis would NOT have happened; just as my husband's crisis, and my transition would NOT have happened, had we been where we were supposed to be in our growth...our marriage didn't "cause" each of our individual periods of growth; our  past ISSUES that were contained within our individual selves was what had caused his crisis; and my subsequent transition to happen.

My husband had an affair, LisaLives; my son also found out on his own, and urged me to get a divorce; he was 15; but I sat down with him, and explained a few things; one of which was that sometimes, it's NOT that easy; and the other was that there was still hope as long as I loved his dad; and was willing to stand for the marriage; I stood, mainly for MYSELF; my vows, and ultimately, my family; as there was a generation curse of 4 generations of divorce that had to be broken;(didn't know that until later on).

But what I showed our son in the example was this: You don't run at the first sign of trouble; you stand to see what's going to happen; and if you've got to stand in fire and brimstone, for a time, so be it; but you develop the courage to stand to see what will happen next; regardless of the breaking of their vows, you still have yours to consider; and children, especially older children, as I had; don't need to see that it's OK to run away;  and they need to see, that it takes more strength to STAND; than it does to run away; and end up facing it again sometime later; somewhere else.

He did not understand at first; but later on, he understood more; as he watched me deal, grow, change; become, and in turn, teach him the lessons I was learning.

It was later when I realized the fruits of my labor had borne fruit, as he thanked me for what I had done to keep the family together against the odds....when you stand, it's always hard.

Just my .02 cents; based on my own experience; I know it's not easy; I know it's hard, very hard to know just the right thing to do; but in the end, YOU are the ONLY one who will be living with your decisions; good or bad, you will make your bed; and you will lay in it, hard or soft.

EVERYBODY has choices; don't ever think you don't have a choice; you ALWAYS have a choice; it may not be the right choice at times; but you always have a choice; you're not stuck, nor are you forced to stay where you are.....but when you make decisions, think them out carefully; because most of them, will affect the REST of your life; for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction; and for every action, there IS a consequence.

Now, me, I'm a survivor, and I teach survival; AND I'm also Pro Marriage; always have been, and always will be; and I know, from again, experience, that it is possible to survive and thrive IN SPITE of the crisis; though the journey was long; and sometimes the heartache was deep; I kept going; I knew I needed to; because the end would not be reached, if I stopped walking the journey for myself.

If anyone gets angry with what I post; I can't help that; I just know to tell the truth of what I see.  No one, who walked with me from time to time during my journey ever told half truths, or lied to me, it was always the whole truth in whatever was told to me; and I didn't always want to hear it or understand it; but there were many seeds planted during that time; and these took root later on, beginning to grow, so someone else provided fertilizer and at a later time, someone else, provided water, in order to enhance the growth that was occurring within me; and I'm thankful for the tough love I got from time to time; the truth telling that was told to me, EVEN when I didn't want to hear it, and most of all, I am ever grateful for the genuine love that was also shown, even as the toughest things were said to me; that sometimes, broke me down, so I would see more clearly.

There is a breaking, a building up, another breaking, aspects; whole issues, and a journey; and it takes months, even years to finish; and even then, it's never finished; it continues; you learn till you're gone; and that's a fact. 

Might as well get to it; time's getting on down the road, just like it always has...but if you don't, you really are hurting yourself; not me, not anyone else; because, it is ALWAYS up to you, and no one else. 

There's no other way, I can approach any of this, but within the spirit of love and truth...because I have been there; different situation, same crisis, and most of the same circumstances...and I got through; you can too. 

Where I stand now is attainable by anyone who wishes to walk the road, and take the time to grow, change, and become...in that process, you learn to accept and embrace, forgive, and heal...and time is what you have to work with...no time limit on how or when it's done...just so it gets done. 

[HeartsBlessing]

Buggy,

Anyway before I left Mr. Dearheart made the comment that the safest place in a storm is right in the MIDDLE of it...so now when I feel like running always I remember this.

That's because this is where "His peace that surpasses ALL understanding" is found; within the MIDDLE of the storm...never at the beginning, nor at the end, but in the MIDDLE. 

[truth_seeker]

But, their therapists and mine have warned me NOT to talk about MLC with them--unless their dad one day tells them differently, they need to respect that he is TRYING to make the best choices for them--I don't know, they're experts, right, I have no reason to think they're wrong.  I have told them I think their Dad is depressed and depression runs in his family and depressed people don't make the best choices.  But, he counters with telling them that she makes him so happy and their lives will be so much better with her--without realizing how much it hurts them...  I guess I just don't have faith my H will ever get out of the tunnel.  He has given up so much I fear there is no going back.  I hope I'm wrong, for his sake, but unfortunately I know more cases of men who die unhappy with their OW than ones that reconcile with their families--I figure the odds are not in my favor, so I should face the possibility.

Now I'm not a therapist nor do I know your kids.  But, I will say that I discussed MLC with both my kids early on and prepared them as much as possible for what may or may not occur with their F.  It has helped tremendously because they can see it for themselves how their F is behaving even when he discredits it.  They know the truth.  I also feel strongly in protecting their R with their F as much as possible for any future repair.  I hope for them to be able to forgive some day and have a healthy R again whether I'm part of it or not.  That's my job as their M to preserve and protect.  The rest I leave to God to take of the details. 

IMHO if I hadn't done this it would have had more damage than necessary.  Though my S is very protective of his F he has only recently begun to open up and recognize the depression.  My H is notorious for "spinning" the message to justify his actions but it still doesn't make it true.  Truth always comes out. 

my .02

[stayed]

Lisalives, I am shocked that ANY counselor would advise against discussing MLC.  Actually shocked that they would advise about discussing ANYTHING that could possibly be responsible for FATHER'S behaviour.  I realize they are the EXPERTS but tell me, since when has it been wise not discuss something that is hurting you?  Since when has it been wise not to talk through possibilities?  Since when has it been wise to ignore your ISSUES, sweep them under the carpet?  I suggest you get a new counselor, one that has a much more open mind.

This isn't about a blame game.  There is enough blame to go around.  None of us are perfect.  This is not about YOU.  It is now, unfortunately, but the malady is your husband's Lisalives, now it is your responsibility to learn and grow from it.  You can help your sons monoever through this, which in the end will help you at the same time. 

The very fact that your h did this during/after such a terrifying year, is a typical INDCATOR of MLC.  Think about it, NOBODY in their right mind would ABANDON people who love them and need them at such a HORRENDOUS point in their lives.  Your h Lisalives, could not cope and he basically CHECKED OUT, rather then deal with it.  He CRACKED likelives and that is something that can be explained to children.

It's not an excuse.  Since when is an excuse required when somebody becomes ill?  If we are physically ill, we don't apologize for becoming sick, no, generally people surround us and care for us. 

This situation is similar but different.  The MLC doesn't want our help, in fact they totally turn away from us.  That is what makes this so unbelievably difficult for us LBS's, as we JUST WANT TO HELP them through it.  We want to hold them close and protect them, from themselves.... YET.... they reject us completely and often turn to someone else.  EXCRUCIATING!

Lisalives, I would try having a sincere talk with my sons.  A real heart to heart.  A talk about marriage and commitment.  About loyalty and responsibility. If your h has always been dependable then this needs to be told to the boys, so they can see how huge a character this change is for their father.  They are very capable of understanding BREAKING POINTS, hormones, changes in life that are unexpected. 

Try it Lisalives.  Slow this thing down.  Break it down into smaller bites, instead of examining it as a WHOLE.  Too overwhelming when you look at the big picture but like most anything else, when broken down into smaller, manageable pieces, always simplifies. 

Please keep us posted Lisalives.  We understand your thought process, we just don't see how rushing a Divorce through is going to CURE the situation, how that will protect you from the disrespect, the humiliation, the pain.  Time is the only thing that can do that, no reason to rush, it isn't going anywhere.

Hugs Stayed

[limitless]

This is an interesting discussion.

I read the article on the Twitter feed.  Regarding the LBS who fought to keep her husband from divorcing her.  Link is below.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2010/08/28/no-fault-divorce-my-fight-to-save-my-marriage.html

Hmmm?  She is against "no fault" divorce.  I get that.  She fought for 5 years to keep her husband from divorcing her.  Inevitably, the divorce went through.  And, New York passed a "no fault" divorce law - making this the law in all 50 states.

OK.  She had her principles.  She fought against something she believed to be wrong - no fault divorce.  She attempted to make her point.  Probably spent lots of money.  Spent lots of time.

But, if I step back and look at it....what did she do in terms of her relationship and marriage?  The beginning of the story sounded very MLCish.  Her H left her for another woman.  He wanted a divorce, so that he could marry the OW.  She fought tooth and nail to stop it....pretty much at any and all costs.  She eventually lost.

I am thinking about her H and the OW.  What do you think happened with them during the long arduous trek of him trying to obtain a divorce so that they could be together.  I can only think that his wife's protest pushed the two of them closer together.  They were united against their mutual foe (the wife) to obtain HIS freedom - so that THEY could be together.  The wife created a "you and me against the world" scenario for the husband and his "new love."  While I would not just lie down and allow my H to take advantage of me in a divorce suit - nor would I give him an easy path to severing our marriage - I do believe that the wife's actions in this article went a bit too far.

There was no paving of the way.  I would imagine that Monster was alive and well in the husband for the 5 years and many more to come.  I don't see any re-connection or reconciliation in their future.  While his new "relationship" may not last - (once they defeated their foe, they may find that they have nothing between them in common except their mutual hatred of his ex-wife)  - I don't see him returning to his wife anytime soon.

I agree.  If the MLCer wants a divorce - the MLCer needs to do ALL the work.  No reason to play into his/her hand.  No reason for the LBS (save for financial protection) to do ANYTHING regarding divorce.

But, if it were to come to this....I don't see me fighting the Supreme Court to prove my h does not have the right to divorce me.  I think that is just going too far.

It doesn't matter if she made a point - she lost the war.

Just my humble opinion.

Limitless

[growing every day]

Interesting article Limitless. I agree with you. What I took away from it is after time, the reason she started the process got lost. To me it seems as if it turned in to "I'll show you."  Principles became more important than the actual reason. She said she "loved" her H, but over time it seems as if that didn't matter any more. It became more that HE would not win.

I find it very sad. I am standing, and I have days that standing means different things. But I would never force my H to stay married to me. I will not help him. he's free to do what he pleases. But I can't even imagine forcing my H to stay married. Really... why would he ever want to stay with such a controlling and IMHO sad person.

Wow... I'm still shaking my head!