[StandandDeliver]

sorry - randomly cut part of my own post before hitting reply.

my hypothesis (that some MLCers don't "see the light" until the LBS is in a new R) suggests that for some standing was never going to work and so the LBS may as well move on:

[Thundarr]

My question was really about whether we give a sort of false hope to certain LBS's when we say that MLCer wake up eventually - everyone thinks: "That will be my H/W then" because we deeply want it to be

I anxiously await the answer to this question.  Is it enough to think/ know that most do wake up?  Are we wasting precious opportunities?  How much do we REALLY know?

[StandandDeliver]

Sometimes trying to think and type and post with 2 preschoolers ranting in the background is impossible - sorry for all the errors!

[justasking]

whether we give a sort of false hope to certain LBS's when we say that MLCer wake up eventually - everyone thinks: "That will be my H/W then"

That is why we try to encourage everyone to concentrate on ourselves and children. Focusing on the MLCer has the potential to keep you dangling forever and none of us what that. None of us know the outcome other than we have a right to a happy fullfilled life for ourselves.

That is why we also have to learn that we can be happy for ourselves and not rely on our H/W.

All this is very difficult and even us 'oldies' still cycle and get pulled in sometimes. When God gave us emotions He sure made all this very difficult.

But I wonder how many LBS think that part of taking the focus off the MLCer is about focusing on potential dates as a way to happiness?

xx

[Synicca]

I think it would depend on the MLCer type.

What if you have a vanisher and the LBS hasnt spoken or seen their W/H for more then lets say 6 months..
How would the MLCer even know that the LBS has "moved on?"

Even if its "fake" or "real" I dont think sending an email to the MLcer saying "Hey, check this out.im dating now"

(not trying to be rude here) I dont have a vanisher, so I wouldnt know. But it seems it would play a part in it.

If you have a CB...it might be easier. but then again, I think CB's may carry more guilt and think it is in the best interest
of the LBSer to move on anyway.

Its all a catch 22, like S&D says....

[StandandDeliver]

But I wonder how many LBS think that part of taking the focus off the MLCer is about focusing on potential dates as a way to happiness?

I would hate to think that dating is a "way to happiness", but it is a way to companionship once we have found happiness or, at least, contentment within ourselves. I am not suggesting that 5 mins after BD people run out and start speed dating, what I am suggesting is that the idea the getting involved means that WE are the ones ending the possibility of reconciliation could keep some of us dangling on the cusp of moving on far longer than we might if we accepted that our MLCer may NEVER see the light (or at least not until we ARE happily inside another relationship with a meaningful companion).

[Dontgiveup]

I think this may come down to whether the LBS trusts and accepts the MLC process.  I don't know the answer (or if there is an answer) as to whether the LBS moving on plays a role in waking up the MLCer.  I don't believe it does, but that's simply my personal belief.

From the Stories and Human Behavior article.
An MLCer may become stuck, but those are the rare cases. More common is for a person to regret their actions--often when they are too late because the spouse has closed the opportunity for marital reconciliation.


Yes, dating is a way to companionship.  I have been divorced for over a year and would be the first to confess that the lack of companionship is tough.  I also believe that my ex-wife is still way too entwined in my life (and me in hers) for me to move on.

And from my belief perspective, I believe God is more interested in my holiness (becoming Christ-like) than my happiness.  I know not everyone shares the same belief system, but that is mine.

This is also from RCR in the article Stories and Human Behavior.  I find it inspiring.

I believed in MLC and the process. I believed that MLC was a time of confusion; I believed in the concept of the Shadow and related fears that brought out. This helped me to understand Sweetheart's mixed up choices. I did not agree with them, but I gained an intellectual understanding. I believed in the addictive power of in-fatuation as well as the power of toxic guilt applied through emotional blackmail and this facilitated my compassion. Because I believed I was open to seeing Sweetheart's pain as well as progress.

This is from RCR earlier in this thread.  It is understanding things like this that have helped me to know that my ex-wife is not capable of a relationship while in her crisis.  I have witnessed this to be very true in my friend's situation.

"Relationships with an MLCer--so an MLCer's relationships are not stable--not while in the crisis. Sure, some MLCers marry the alienator and sometimes they last--ask my step mother's alienator. But in crisis those relationships are not stable; if they become stable it is because of the what they build once out of the crisis."

[StandandDeliver]

Relationships with an MLCer--so an MLCer's relationships are not stable--not while in the crisis. Sure, some MLCers marry the alienator and sometimes they last--ask my step mother's alienator. But in crisis those relationships are not stable; if they become stable it is because of the what they build once out of the crisis

But then there is an article somewhere that says that if the MLCer is still WITH the alienator they are probably still in crisis. So in order to come out of crisis the alienator needs to be dropped, and if an alienator is dropped how can they build something together post-crisis? What if your MLCer is a vanisher, or an on and off - how can we possibly pave the way, or be the lighthouse? How can we even know that they have not ALREADY started to exit the crisis WITH the alienator by their side?

I am sorry, as I said, I am just playing devil's advocate and probably not asking anything terribly new, but I do still have these (possibly unanswerable) questions.

[Freddygone]

I think we can all agree that this is not an exact science. I am 59 years old married for 31 years. Hmm, I dont think I would last so long based on the formula.
Many MLC dont come out the end, many come out too late.
It is hard being a stander, but you have to go with your heart and your conscience. My daughters said they wanted to see me happy again after I have watched this game for four years.
Will it end, wont it? Should I toss a coin. If it ends, will she be the same woman I knew?
One thing is certain, from a man's perspective there are many single ladies if you can be bothered after all this pain.
But I do think cake eating stops when they think the reserve may be lost.
Keep thinking, each case is different but surprisingly similar.

[Thundarr]

I posted this on my wall in relation to a discussion there, but upon catching up here I think it fits very well here also:

You all make extremely valid points.  I DO love my W, and I love her unconditionally.  I do not feel she is herself right now even though I see glimpses of the real her.  She acts like she is an addict, and I fear the addiction is her lawyer friend.  That is the struggle that I have in that I often wonder if this is truly MLC or if she has fallen into the temptation of an affair that has blinded her to her family.  I have known of women who put their boyfriends before their children, and work with many of those who deal with this daily.  I just wonder if somehow this infatuation really IS the issue and if it really has anything to do with childhood issues at all.  To forsake me and the children for some supposed "true love" would be unforgivable to me, and would be violating God's covenant of marriage.  Do I think this should be grounds for an annulment?  Yes, I do.  And I am not a hypocrite in that I would say the same for any other, AND I would not have faulted my W if she had gone this route 18 years ago.

Research into what is known as the "affair fog" indicates many of the same characterisitics of MLC - blaming the spouse, rewriting history, unbelievable selfishness, a sudden need for "space" and subsequent secrecy about comings and goings along with excessive cell phone use.  My W has shown all of these behaviors to the Nth degree.  That is one of the reasons I question what is going on and whether or not to stand.

I know that most on here either have or are dealing with an OP (and not the moderator type), and I can understand if anyone disagrees with my stance on this issue.  But, I would like to clarify WHY I hold the position I do.  My beliefs that the discovery of a Physical Affair (I wrote it out this time) would be the end for me stem from my own personal demons dealing with abandonment and feeling less than others.  I was brought up with the feeling that no matter what I did or do, I would always be the number 2 son.  My brother, who I have nothing but love for and is battling lung cancer so I have let go of my anger towards him, was always the favored son and still is.  He has never set foot in a college, used to deal drugs, slept with everything that would say "yes" no matter how they looked or what kind of person they were, treated women like objects and may even have children who he doesn't "claim."  I won't put myself on a pedestal, but I did none of those things and yet he is the one my mother seems to be most proud of.  I managed a chain of tire stores for 7 years, but whenever something went wrong with my mom's car and I had diagnosed it, she would always  get my brother's opinion and go with whatever he said.  I was ASE certified to repair and align front ends, and she would trust his call over mine.  Even today, she tells me to call him and get his advice before I make any kind of decision as if I'm nothing short of stupid.  So, I grew up being second best and the second choice and I'll be damned if I will feel like that in my marriage.  I DID have jealousy issues stemming from my W having a serious relationship before me and I struggled with them for years.  Now that seems like not such a big deal.  But, I cannot and will not live feeling like she prefers someone over me or that she is settling for me because an OM dumped her.

To clarify, if I TRULY believe she is in MLC and TRULY believe that she does not see what she is doing, I MAY be able to forgive whatever she does.  I love her and would lay down my life for her.  I've said that many times, but I've backed it up in real life and have the scars to prove it.  If I find out this is all about her falling for some a-hole lawyer or any other guy, I would not take her back if she begged on her hands and knees.  Does that make me a sinner?  Does that make me less than moral?  I CAN'T live feeling like second best, or feeling like she dumped me for someone else and treated my kids like this for someone else.  IF this is really just about an affair, then she had best hope she keeps him because this door will be shut.  I condemn no one for their views and will listen to no condemnation of mine. I am me.  I have found myself, and I must stand for what I believe in.  That may be for marriage, or it may be for justice as X mentions.  But, whatever it is for I will stand for something and I must be true to myself.

And I am not angry at all.  I am resolved.