[LettingGo]

Well, here's the thing, BrandNEw..... you don't get to define what standing is to someone else... you may see it as co dependent, and it might be. You may think that divorce is the only way the MLCer will wake up.... good luck with that... if someone else "stands" and you think they are insecure, co dependent fools, you may be right.... but, really? When do you (not you personally) keep your opinions to yourself? WHEN??? The COMPULSION to tell everyone what you think they should be doing "for their own good" is FIXING to the nth degree.... there is a LOT of it going on here, and a lot of justification and defense of it.

i would say that labeling someone else as CO DEPENDANT is the slippery slope of co dependence and fixing S'Mothering.

Divorce can be a standing action.  How can you claim detachment, letting go, and GAL when you steadfastly refuse to D despite the poor treatment by the MLCer?

This is not really your business when it someone else's life. MLCers treat everyone badly. ACCEPT IT!! They are not in their right minds... it's NOT a choice... and it's NOT personal.... If they had Cancer would you blame them for becoming the center of your attention? WOuld you blame them for sucking up all of the energy with their disease? Would you blame them for not getting better sooner rather than later even if that is their wish? Would you blame them for not being there for their kids?

Finally, would a CANCER diagnoses make you feel better about them.... would it make it easier to feel compassion and empathy? In my case, it absolutely would!! Because my husband seems, on the surface, to be capable of living real life.... but dig a little deeper than a 15 minute conversation and we are in murky territory.... I'm glad it's not Cancer, even though it's harder to understand.

By the way, DIVORCE does not = Detachment. By your definition, Divorce is a punishment for poor treatment by a sick person. Divorce can be a punishment.... for a lot of things... for cruelty.... for infidelity.... but if the person has a Disease or disorder, what exactly are you punishing them for? What? Being sick? Is the person you married a BAD person??? Did you really make a mistake and fall in love with a BAD person? Some people do.... Look back to your wedding.... was he/she a BAD person? Were you THAT fooled by a BAD PERSON??? With all of your youth and idealism.... were they a BAD PERSON???

I have news for you... if you want to divorce and date, and possibly reconcile with your MLCer one day IF THEY SHAPE UP and want it with you, then YOU are doing EXACTLY what they do with fence sitting.... wanting the marriage but not committing to it... until you see them behaving.... I really think that's ok..... but just SAY that's what it is you require.... THEM doing the work first before you commit.... I get that.... I don't even disagree with it.... just say that's what it is though.... it has NOTHING to do with STanding...

Standing really IS about commitment.... if you want to date, then just date for goodness sakes... but don't try and tell me you ALSO want your marriage to work out, because DATING while married COMPLICATES things to your detriment.... your marriage may STILL work out against all odds.... Synicca is one example of someone whose marriage has survived multiple infidelities and depressions, divorce, and remarriage... yet MLC has destroyed all they were able to overcome.... I can't speak for her, but I'm pretty sure that, as lonely as she might get, she learned how "dating while married" is not the answer you think it is...

My Grandmother lost the love of her life....my Papaw.... when he was only 52.... she would have been in her late 40's..... he died an excruciating death from Lung Cancer and, quite simply, working himself to death.... she never remarried. It sounds so romantic... yet, I know that many women secretly prefer a life all to themselves after their family is grown... no man to pick up after... no one to answer to... life insurance money to pave their way, as it should be....

She was asked once why she didn't consider remarrying and she said "Because the Screwin' I'd get wouldn't be worth the Screwin' I got!".... I don't know if she just didn't trust men, or if she thought she was "home free" from the obligatory sex.... I don't know!! But maybe, just maybe.... she meant that she trusted my Papaw.... and she didn't trust anyone else..... that loneliness wasn't all that bad considering the alternatives to being alone.... I've been divorced... it was amicable and no kids... people do it every day!! I don't hear many "wonderful" stories, but, hey!! SOmehow they seem to get along in life.... But, I will say that if you think divorce is an answer to anything, you don't really know the true cost. I wish I could caution everyone to go in with their eyes open, but if they don't ASK me, it's not for me to say!!

[Dontgiveup]

I'll post this here as well.  This is not in response to any individual post.  I am posting this because posters may not be aware that The Hero's Spouse has a mission statement.

Mission Statement

•To provide information, advice and support on how to Stand for marriage to men and women experiencing midlife crisis and infidelity in their marriages.
•To prevent divorces.
•To reduce the overall rate of divorce.
•To encourage an alternative to divorce.
•To encourage personal growth and loving of one’s Self.

[LisaLives]

I said CLEARLY, I am on MY THREAD to JOURNAL MY STORY.... PERIOD. Please ALLOW me to JOURNAL. You, and everyone else can read, disagree, agree, whatever.... I don't want to be TOLD what to do by anyone.... or WARNED repeatedly that I'm doing "it" wrong..... I'm 19 months into this... I don't have all or probably ANY of the answers.... but I sleep, I eat, I GAL, I'm not a NEWBIE. I don't tell others what to do except to BACK OFF on my thread....


LG, Are you not contradicting yourself here?  You want to journal on a public forum and not ever be questioned, is that your intention?  Perhaps you need to say that at the beginning of every post, or why bother, why not keep a private journal?  You said again, "back off my thread" you have said it before and I took it literally, I have stayed away from your thread.  I am not one that just absorbs lectures, I tend to need to ask questions and get clarification.  I have told you before that I read your thread out of respect and curiousity and sometimes I commented because I did not understand--my "advice" was never a directive, but more a question, of why that way and not another.  I stopped because you told me to.   

But you still seem to be taking things a little too personally.  You just ripped BrandNew a new one, for stating her opinion, not aimed at you, but just a thought, an opinion on what you said was "MY" thread?  Though, I have never said that I didn't want others to post opinions, I want ALL the opinions, especially the ones I don't agree with--if I only wanted agreement, I would just talk to myself.  Do you not see the anger in your post?  There was no tone or judgment from BrandNew--I think you owe her an apology, seriously... (and I hope BN is a woman, I thought so, but now I am doubting everything I have ever known or thought, so sorry if I screwed up yet again...)   

[BrandNew]

Lisa, Yes I am a woman.  I appreciate your support for being open to different perspectives on MLC and Standing.  I am thick skinned and see the anger in LettingGo's post toward me.  My post was my opinion on relationship dynamics between MLCers and LBSs.  I still believe in my statements, just as LG believes in her statements.  I really don't feel it is necessary to counter or defend myself.  I simply do not agree.  I do feel that as healthy detachment increases during this journey, our own anger and reactivity decreases.  We are all on our own journey.  I, myself, was codependent in my marriage, so I have my own tunnel.  My MLCer has his own and becoming an adult and being treated like one, I believe is part of it.  I feel that Standing for me is too maternal and codependent.  I don't want those roles anymore.   Complete collapse of previous roles.  So yes, I am divorcing and will date when it is final.  I love my husband and hope he gets through the tunnel with a more defined sense of self and autonomy.  I don't want the marriage for the sake of the marriage.  I want a loving healthy relationship.  Whether that is with my soon to be former husband or someone else, only time will tell.  Please note, LG, that my statements refer to my own choices for my own life.  I do not disagree with Standing.  I just hope that the cause for someone Standing isn't rooted in codependency, abandonment issues, and fear.  Am I t/jing?

[good4me]

I think that its really sad the way this thread is going at the moment. Don't we all have enough pain and sadness without arguing like girls in junior high . We are all adults here therefore there is absolutely no reason for the behavior displayed lately on this forum . I don't know what got this all started and frankly it doesn't matter. The bottom line is this : we are here to support and encourage one another. Nothing more nothing less. If for some reason anyone disagrees with something said here just let it go. If we cannot say anything nice how about saying nothing at all. We are supposed to detach from our MLCer maybe we need to use some of detachment here as well.

[LettingGo]

I feel that Standing for me is too maternal and codependent.  I don't want those roles anymore.   Complete collapse of previous roles.  So yes, I am divorcing and will date when it is final.  I love my husband and hope he gets through the tunnel with a more defined sense of self and autonomy.  I don't want the marriage for the sake of the marriage.  I want a loving healthy relationship.  Whether that is with my soon to be former husband or someone else, only time will tell.  Please note, LG, that my statements refer to my own choices for my own life.  I do not disagree with Standing.  I just hope that the cause for someone Standing isn't rooted in codependency, abandonment issues, and fear.  Am I t/jing?

BrandNew... I totally get what you are saying.... it's not how I feel, but I have already experienced divorce... and I have young children.... so my perspective is different.... I get what you are saying, though..... seems like you might have to try it out on your own to know what it is you want, but I don't want to put words in your mouth at all.... I get that you don't want your marriage "for the sake of your marriage".... I don't want that for myself either, BUT, I do see the stakes a being MUCH higher than some others do... perhaps because I've been divorced... still, I absolutely understand that, sometimes you are divorced against your will, or because you need to protect yourself financially, or because your MLCer has had a baby with his OW, or for whatever reason... FIRST OF ALL, you shouldn't have to explain to to anyone... but this forum was developed for "standers" so it puts you in an awkward position if you are the one who is filing.. I get that... or if you change your mine, which is your right - my right too!.... I get that....

It's hard for me to understand your point of view about Standing being "too maternal or co dependant".... I don't get that....but it's your life, pure and simple. I'm very sorry if I came across as criticizing you personally.... I will check myself.

[BrandNew]

Thank you, Letting Go.  I appreciate your response.  Very fair.  I didn't realize this forum was only for standers.  So maybe I shouldn't be posting.  The "maternal and codependent" comment was only about me and my codependency recovery journey, not about standers in general.  I didn't file, but I would have due to the continuing infidelity and then the OC recently born.  My MLCer is cycling.  I am kind, but detached.  I have to focus on my own journey and expectations.  I respect all of the LBSs here and the choices they have made for themselves and their families.  Should I stop posting here, including my own thread, since I am not Standing?  Please let me know.

[LettingGo]

BrandNew... the forum is OPEN, as I understand it, BUT, RCR started it as a haven for Standers.... people whose position is very misunderstood...

There are so many horror stories on this forum, I can barely stand it... I will say again that I feel so lucky that my own situation is only as bad as it is.... most people could not fathom it, though.

No one blames you for choosing to divorce.... even if you were NEVER "standing".... GOODNESS!! The circumstances are outrageous... they really are! There is no special martyr's crown for "standing"..... what is the point? If it is not in your heart, or if your MLCer divorces you, it changes your course!! There's NO CONTEST here!! If you want to be here, then be here.... what a crap hand you've been dealt... really!

The tone on the forum has changed... those of us that still hope for a reconciled marriage realize that, whatever the outcome, we have to move forward on our own and vanquish resentment from our lives and attitudes...... pity parties are still allowed, LOL!! There is a lot of resentment language being spoken here, and it doesn't have ANYTHING to do with where you are in your personal journey... there are "STANDERS" who, after two years or more, are so unforgiving that they are not fulfilling their OWN journey! They are missing out and becoming stuck! BUT, everyone has their timeline and lessons to learn.... I just disagree with the ham handedness of some on this forum.... to INSIST that others do as they say.... we are all different with different timelines, and 'tough love" is not always given with LOVE... sometimes it's all about ego.

I wonder about your position on standing being "too maternal and co dependant" but my Mother would probably say the same thing.... and THAT i understand... I disagree, but I understand. She's DIFFERENT than me!!

Although I don't strictly adhere to RCR's guidelines, because it is her forum, I DO respect them.... and if the focus is on Standing, then that doesn't mean others aren't welcome, but.... the focus IS on Standing..... not because it's the best or only way.... it's just her forum, that's all!! If you are getting support out of it, then stick with us!!

Nobody left behind.... just please, no MLCer bashing.... that's all we ask (not accusing you, by the way!!), and by bashing, I mean nasty stuff... not the usual "I can't believe what a jerk he is!!".... they are sick.... we all need to remember that...

[BrandNew]

LG - I love this forum.  I have learned so much from RCR and The Hero's Spouse.  As my detachment has increased, so has my compassion for MLCers.  Someone here mentioned how difficult it is to describe true letting go.  It is very peaceful, no anger or resentment toward the MLCer.  Lexapro has also helped.

The rollercoaster of emotions may resume, but for now I am grateful for MLC.  It forced me to go on a journey of self discovery and self worth.  I hope the same goes for my husband.  Fascinating adventure!

[unbroken]

but this forum was developed for "standers" so it puts you in an awkward position if you are the one who is filing...

So, LG, why exactly would a stander be in an awkward position if they filed for divorce?