[Thundarr]

HB - thank you for the very concise answers to all our questions!!  I do have one about something you wrote though.  You mentioned that anyone can have an emotional crisis and that the behaviors are similar, so how do we know the difference between that and MLC?  Also, your assertion that BD happens when they're deep in Replay is contradictory to most here, but I totally agree based in my own sitch.  Given that, how long does Replay usually last post-BD?

Sorry to continue to hijack, but we've all been in HB withdrawal!

[crazyforhim]

Thanks HB...when I did some soul searching of my own and really looked back, that's when it hit me. That his MLC started way back then, but I had no idea at the time of what I needed to do for ME. I think all the changing I did was for H.
Thank you so much for clarifying that for me...it was a short time the first time- we were only apart for 10 months so now
I'm wondering if this makes it harder for them since they have left TWICE now and 2 OW's.
He has convinced himself that we got back together once and it didn't work...how on earth would he think it's going to work
the 2nd time around???

[Anjae]

Thundarr, I'm not HB but think BD is already with them in replay. How deep I cannot say. From my husband's letters to OW1, ad the more and more stange behaviour he was having home, it is creal for me replay had already started. Very mild, at the time, butv already there.

HB, and what happens when the spouse leaves (no BD yet), and you are told) about other person by an anonymous phone call? That was my BD. Then husband told me he was planning to only let me know about OW1 a few weeks after he had left. He wanted to pretend they had meet after he left and fall in love. Problem was, whoever called me told me what he was planning to do, where that supposed first meeting was going to be and when. Husband said, I did not wanted you to find this way. I did not wanted to hurt you. There was no need of you knowing, to you it should had only started once I was out of home.

I told him that, given who OW1 was I would start to put two and two together and would know it had started before. Monsters and replay become much, much worst since he and OW1 went public. After the anonymous phone call he decided to assume her, a few more weeks after, and marked a day to made her public presentation has his girlfriend. Nuts, I know...

[limitless]

BD is the start of replay or very soon after Replay begins.  Not true in ALL situations...but true in most.

Regarding how you find out.....either the LBS gets the speech or the MLCer's affair is "found out" - sometimes by the MLCer's own self sabotage.  The MLCer wants to get caught.  How else would someone else know that much about your H's "plan?"  Why tell anyone?  If they are "found out" then they can pretend it happened by accident.

For me, my H wrote emails to his ex-wife proclaiming his love and his plan to divorce me - 2+ months prior to BD.  He then printed these emails out and put in them a drawer in the garage.  Why would he do that?  The emails were sent from his work address.  There was NO way I would have ever found out about them.  He would be still denying it...if I hadn't found the emails, 6 months after he left.  I can only guess, like your H, mine wanted to leave me - then later hook up with his ex-wife - like it had
just happened.  Like, surprise!

After BD - there is really nothing left to hide.  The MLCer can just go hog wild - living his/her life of wild, indulgent fantasy.  What held my H back, I'm guessing, was his attempt to try to still look like the "good guy" - who just left because he no longer was happy.  Not because he was a lying, cheater.

He still wanted the kids to respect him........

L

[Anjae]

limit, Always thought they wanna by caught. Mine still wanted to be the good guy after BD. I want to be happy (is motto before BD), I need a new life, I need space...But the was also capable of saying "I know now I'm the bad guy. I did not wanted to drag any of the two fo you into this".  At the time had no idea why he was bothered to had dragg the two (I and OW1) into that. Now I know, she had wrote him, couple of months before he left, that she was fighting for their love. That, because of thar, and to allow him to see her, she had to compromisse her values. That she hoped he did not let her down, since it was very hard for her to let go of her values. Husband said he did not wanted her to give away her values for him, that he, as well, was having to set aside is values do to what he has been doing. Think he saw it like: This is the great love story ever, we both overcome it all, our values, my marriage...

Never found out who phone me telling about the two fo them. Husband said that only he and OW1 knew about his plans. Given that it was a man that phoned me, someone else knew. Husband used to phone OW1 from his work (found this many years latter on their letters), so maybe someone from husband's company. Or maybe OW1 asked for the call to be made. He always said, it was not her, and somehow, I believe it was not her idea.

But, yes, they do want to be caught. Why? Don't really know.

[limitless]

Anne,

MLC man at my work had naked photos of OW on this work cell phone.  His wife (ex-wife) found them.  He definitely wanted to get caught - even if it was sub consciously.

If I were a betting woman (actually, sometimes I am) I would say OW had someone call you and tell you.  Theirs had been a clandestine affair, right?  She was probably pressuring him to leave you.  They probably had plans...that he had chickened out on.  She wanted to force his hands.  Just a feeling that I have.

My guess is my H's ex-wife really wasn't that interested, but told him that she couldn't be responsible for breaking up a marriage and a family (Catholic through and through).  So, she cut him off.  He had to prove it to her that he could do it.  Leave me.  Leave the kids.  It took him 2 1/2 months after his emails to tell me and another 2 1/2 months after that to walk out the door.  I don't think she gave him the time of day after he left.  She wasn't interested. 

I think it is "easier" for them if they just get caught.  They don't have to bring up the "courage" to Bomb Drop you.

JMHO.

L

[HeartsBlessing]

Ok Thundarr,

I copied this from what I had written as the third stage of a MLC..and I will BOLD where I assert that the BOMB is DROPPED during REPLAY.  The MLC'er is already within the  tunnel when they "bomb" the LBS...the first couple of stages pass almost without the notice of the LBS except for odd behavior observed.

I have NOT seen this particular aspect change in any way.

HB, and what happens when the spouse leaves (no BD yet), and you are told) about other person by an anonymous phone call? That was my BD. Then husband told me he was planning to only let me know about OW1 a few weeks after he had left. He wanted to pretend they had meet after he left and fall in love. Problem was, whoever called me told me what he was planning to do, where that supposed first meeting was going to be and when. Husband said, I did not wanted you to find this way. I did not wanted to hurt you. There was no need of you knowing, to you it should had only started once I was out of home.

Again the bomb is dropped during Replay; and Anne, to answer your question; it is entirely possible to be bombed through discovery; and you, like me, recognized the aspects of Replay, as it was happening.  Apparently, someone jumped the gun on your husband; I suspect, it was the woman he was involved with; but I feel your husband never had any intention of telling you what he was doing; he was trying to keep his affair a secret, so he could keep you, too; and that never works, as what is done in darkness NEVER stays there, it always comes to light.

The next thing that comes to me is that your husband had NO intention of leaving the marriage; nor did he have any intention of telling you about his affair, but knew if you found out about his affair; you'd leave him; and that is exactly what has happened, because you wouldn't and won't accept him again as a husband if he should wish to return in that aspect.

I could be wrong, but that is what I'm getting strongly; and this would NOT be a fault in you; not many people can accept adultery in their spouse; regardless of the circumstances surrounding the event.

Since he's gone and taken another OW since then, the situation has worsened; as now he's "punishing" you by having taken all of the money.   He's going to find out that there are serious consequences for his actions..but I digress. 

I learned more as time went on; and quite a few things were added to my store of knowledge; not much was changed from what I knew before; if anything MORE was added.

3rd Stage of a Mid Life Crisis

REPLAY

Now, Replay can take many forms, from Affairs, to a search for youth, catching up on "lost" time-although you can never "catch up" what you have lost in that time-but they don't know that.

They are still searching for outside sources to blame for their misery, and Replay is a perfect time for a totally stable man to go crazy and start an affair-although the SEEDS for this affair were probably planted while in the Anger stage. They will still try to reconnect with children, or if they were close to their children, distance from them-it is also during this time they become the total "opposite" of what they were, before they entered the tunnel, back in Denial. They undergo a gradual change in the first two stages, going from what they were to the direct opposite during this time. They will do things their husbands/wives never thought they would do.

Besides the affair, they will feel "entitled" to what they take, regardless of who they hurt, or how much of a financial bind they put their families in. Their reasoning becomes "Well, I have taken care of people my whole life, now it's time for ME to have fun."

The emotions, during this time, are in play, in a way they never have been, and they don't understand what's going on, and so they panic and "run"; but the running they do will rock the very foundation of a marriage.

They may drink, take drugs, curse God for what He "has done" to them-have multiple affairs, failing to see what they are doing that's so wrong-still with the attitude of it being "my" time now.

The "bomb" can and will be dropped during this time, shocking the sane spouse who probably has NO idea that anything was wrong, and the problems begin to escalate, as "crying and begging" ensues, and the Mid Lifer turns away, secure in his "reasoning" for his behavior and /or the affair/drinking/drugs/money spent.

Their behavior can disrupt the most settled of families, most especially the affair-the Mid Lifer's reasoning is that he/she thinks they have "missed out" when really, they haven't, and the OW/OM, they can/will get involved with will NOT be what they wanted all along, but they won't see that until they experience an "awakening" that gives them a direction, and starts them along the path to facing their issues; opening the door for the stage of Depression.

As long as the Mid Lifer continues "replay" behaviors they are nowhere near to being ready to start their way out of the tunnel; the "awakening" they have IF they come to it, is a "turning point" to beginning their journey out of the tunnel.

When the "awakening" occurs, they begin to suffer the next stage-Depression, and it is a low point of the Mid Lifer's journey.

The Replay stage is the LONGEST of the stages, and can last up to two years or even longer, depending upon the "replay" behaviors used during this time.

Given that, how long does Replay usually last post-BD?

Refer to the estimated time just above your quote for a possible answer...Replay will last as long as the person has a major issue to confront that is too painful to face.   That's all I know; and I do say that Replay CAN LAST UP TO TWO YEARS or EVEN LONGER, DEPENDING on the REPLAY behaviors used during this time.

HB - thank you for the very concise answers to all our questions!!  I do have one about something you wrote though.  You mentioned that anyone can have an emotional crisis and that the behaviors are similar, so how do we know the difference between that and MLC?

Dude, the ones in emotional crisis don't have the heavy confusion that comes in MLC; there is a type of confusion; but usually one in emotional crisis is very well aware of what they are doing to hurt others, whereas there are many things the MLC'er does that at various times, their awareness is simply NOT there...the MLC'er is deep within the FOG in a way that one going through the emotional crisis is NOT. 
 Also the one going through emotional crisis can exit this without resolving anything and won't experience a recurrance coming on at a later time; at least until it's time for the Transition/Crisis.

One other thing here, is that one going through an emotional crisis is more likely to understand they have a problem, and more likely to accept help for what they are dealing with, whereas the MLC'er doesn't WANT to be helped; they don't think anything is wrong with them.

In fact, one going through an emotional crisis can also experience the traumatic breakage that happens and these pieces can be stored within the psyche for a later time of dealing; it doesn't just happen in childhood; people in young adulthood can experience this as well.

When my dad died back in 1994, for example; I was 27 years old.    I suffered an emotional crisis; there was some depression involved; I realized at that time that was a transitional type of crisis, that I was going to need to adjust to losing a parent; but I didn't suffer the kind of fogged confusion I suffered during my Transition; and there were some aspects of his death that I simply "set aside" to deal with during my transition over 10 years later.

I did withdraw from my family for a time; just as my husband withdrew from me when his mother died; but I knew, and was aware that I was going through something.   Someone helped me through it, and I don't remember who it was, and I accepted that help.

I didn't finish dealing with it until later; but my awareness back at that time was actually much clearer than it was during my transition.

My husband's emotional crisis for six months after his mother's death wasn't fogged behavior; his angst was deliberately taken out on me; as he knew full well what he was doing; and I didn't see the deep confusion and fear within his eyes that I saw during his MLC.   I do remember he accepted help from someone; although, he,too, set aside several aspects concerning her death, and dealt with them later, during his MLC.


Your regular run of the mill cheater is one in consistent emotional crisis; but they are completely aware of all they do; their actions are deliberate; even though childish behavior is seen as they carry out their secrecy.  Unlike a MLC affair, however, secrecy is the key to maintaining their illicit behavior, and once blown out in the open, this is usually enough to bring about the end of the affair.

The WAS KNOW if they get caught, it's likely to mean the end of their marriage; whereas the MLC'er in their confusion really doesn't understand why the LBS gets SO angry at what they are doing; as they've buried their morals,etc.....yet, the WAS KNOWS, but does it ANYWAY.

Not so with the MLC affair; the MLC'er has already set their marriage aside to the point it does NOT exist for them,  and discovery will NOT ALWAYS result in the affair ending; and you sure aren't going to see any kind of remorse, unless it's for THEMSELVES; not like you would see in the Wayward Spouse who has all of their mental faculties in place.   

There are similarities in behavior; but there are aspects that set a regular affair apart from the MLC affair; just as there are aspects that set an emotional crisis apart from the MLC.

Also, your assertion that BD happens when they're deep in Replay is contradictory to most here, but I totally agree based in my own sitch.

People often see what they want to see; believe what they want to believe; and what results is a disagreement that becomes about who's right and who's wrong.

I never said I had all the answers, but there are many things I saw evidence of over and over that confirmed my writings back then, and even now.

I based all I wrote on FACTS not feelings or assumptions; not to mention my Insight.   Very little of what I've written came from me as a human being...and I've seen EVERYTHING I've written over time CONFIRMED more than once.  If I hadn't seen it in this way; I'd question myself on various aspects; but I have NOT seen any mistakes or misinformation within the writing I did about the Major aspects of MLC.   In fact, in May of 2010, I started out writing just enough to get people started, then waited on them to feed BACK all that I already knew; as they did, I fleshed out their starting of knowledge to help them learn more.

I needed to know that all I wrote was correctly heard and written out years ago when I was writing on these things on the other board.  Once I realized these aspects were accurate as these was given to me so long ago; I was and have been confident enough to help others without worrying that I was hearing "wrong".

I have been flamed, insulted, my words twisted, been told I was close minded, disregarding the opinions of others, and the list goes on...but those who do and say these things aren't hurting me; they're hurting themselves, and others with their actions, and choice to pass on what they believe is truth.

Don't think for one second, I'm not aware of what goes on in that aspect; there's not one thing I can do about it...and I don't have the need to spend the rest of my life on this or any other board correcting people's perceptions; I can only speak for myself when asked directly; or there is a wealth of posts one can access that I've written before over time, not to mention posts from other people that, by now, know as much as I do. 

If what I have just written angers someone so be it; sometimes people must get angry in order to become or feel better; and troublemakers will bear the eventual consequences of their actions.

I just know that when it all comes to an end, and I leave this world,  I will account to the Lord for myself as a INDIVIDUAL; and for what I have done; not for anyone else. 

[crazyforhim]

HB,
Thank you for your wisdom...can I clarify something you wrote.
Are you saying that the MLCer can exit REPLAY without ending the R with OW?

I know we all know our H's best and it seems like my H is different (can't explain how- just different)
Can they enter the 4th stage and still be with OW? Or when do they finally end the R- is there a specific stage?

Knowledge is power and I feel more powerful already....thank you!

[limitless]

Crazy,

In one of RCR's articles (DGU would know which one) she states that the OW can continue after the end of Replay - but the relationship will have changed.

L

[Anjae]

Limit, that MCL man at your work is something. And this trend of naked/ or half naked photos that people send to each other…everyone is in need of 15 minutes of fame?...

Well, if, by then, my husband had a mobile that could have pictures I may not had find it. I never touched his mobile.

Yes, think you and HB are right, phone call/BD to me most likely was OW1 thing.

That story of your husband and his x-wife and that she could not be responsible for the break of the marriage is pretty much like OW1 and her values…they play the, no, no, we are very moral one…the man/woman fells pressured, and, puff, there they go.

HB, Yes, he was trying to keep his affair secret. I have found, a while ago, a bunch of their letters. He never says he wants to leave (he may had almost before he had, there is a gap of a few weeks prior to his left and BD), they were meeting in secret. She was the one “directing” it all. Booking the hotels, looking at the trains schedules, telling him how to do, etc. And, always, keeping the “my love” and the, when he says he really respect me and does not want to hurt me, “I know, that is one of the reasons why I love you so much”. Only to add “but you know I need to have a certainty, I need to know you are fighting for us as much as I am.  Have you imagine us, in our little house, and the happy life we would have?”, he replies saying “no, I have not thought about that. I’mnot sure that is what I want”. From there on she is always pressuring, being adorable, saying he is so nice, a man like she has never meet before, etc. Also, I know he had been crying a lot, because he writes it to her. But he never told me that he cried or was unhappy.

The thing, HB, is that he left weeks before BD. So, if he really did not wanted to leave the marriage, why left? He knew that, even because he went to live with a single man that was part of our social circle, that I would soon find out there was OW1. But I’m going to agree that, yes, he wanted to keep both of us. “Everyone will get along, you’ll see”, he said. I would had got him back as a husband if he had dropped OW1 and wore willing to work hard on things. After she was gone he come after me, wanted me to be his girlfriend. We would divorce, he would have all the money, and we would start a new relationship. I told him, no. As husband and wife ok but the money issues he had caused would had to be repaid and things worked on. Also told him that he was still not on his mind. He had taken the money some weeks after OW1 went public. But yes, he knew I was not going to be around for him to have both of us.

Still, very well, if, but only IF, his faults are paid for (and I don’t mean just money), if he manages to come out of all this a better man, taken accountability for his mistakes, I may still want him as a husband. But he will need to do a HUGE amount of work on himself. Still, that is not going to stop me for carry on with my legal actions not demand all that the law grants me. Nor from moving on. So, yes, he may really become a fantastic great better man but I will be long gone.

I know he is in MLC. That there are a bunch of issues from childhood ne needs to address. But, like stayed, I’m not the kind who will not let him know, loud and clearly, what his mistakes and wrong dids were. No, would not keep doing that forever, but also don’t let him go with a “ah, alright, you’ve just ruined a marriage.” He needs to get the notion of what ruining the marriage and our relationship really was.

The other thing my husband knows since he left is that, if/when divorced, I intend to remarry. One more reason for him to keep dragging the divorce and come up with silly processes. While I’m still married I will not marry again. Control, again, I think.

HB, I think you're quite right, if we observe, things will always happen a certain way.

Yes, crazy, an MCLer can end replay and still be with OW/OM. But it will not be the same thing. Some MClers remain married to the affair partner, or with the affair partner. Some people here on the forum had talked about such cases. Don't remember a single one where the MCLer had been happy or did not regret had remained with the affair partner. Also don't recall a single MLC i know of, form my life, where the MCLer, once out of the crisis, had not regret it all.