[HeartsBlessing]

Crazy4Him,

HB,
Thank you for your wisdom...can I clarify something you wrote.
Are you saying that the MLCer can exit REPLAY without ending the R with OW?

NO, I never said that.   They must be past the affair and all replay behaviors before moving forward; unless they have managed to somehow put a particular issue aside for later.

I promise you I did NOT write that; and I don't advocate that view; my view is that the MLC'er goes through an "awakening" process which will lead to the affair dissolving; the OW/OM Withdrawal must be completed, although it can be processed right in tandem with the stage of Depression...but the affair partner should be GONE by the time the MLC'er is navigating through the 4th stage; which is Depression.

No one can handle an ongoing affair while depressed or even withdrawn; not even a MLC'er.   

I've watched so many situations over time, and in each one, the MLC'er began to wake up to what they were doing,  the affair partner was eventually left behind, and  the affair was processed for meaning...only then were the depression and withdrawal stages progressed through; ALTHOUGH; OW/OM Withdrawal CAN be walked in tandem with the Depression stage.   Also, the depression and withdrawal stages can be walked in tandem.

My husband got completely rid of OW, not long after his awakening happened; his Replay behaviors ceased completely, and I saw heavy flashes of the man I once knew; he walked through OW Withdrawal AND Depression at the SAME time; and I did the best that I could to help him through this Hell he was facing.

ALL Replay behaviors including the MLC affair MUST cease before the next stage is navigated...that's the view I have always held, and still hold.

I think RCR sees the depression and withdrawal and possibly acceptance as one whole stage, I do NOT; I see them as completely separate stages.

I sincerely doubt the affair survives past Replay; I've never seen it happen.   The affair is actually one of the aspects of Replay; related to the issues of the MLC'er; a symptom of their problems/issues within, not to mention they are on a journey to search for someone who can connect with them, which is what the MLC affair is all about to begin with.

The emotions are in play as never before; and this is what draws the MLC'er into a EA that could possibly become a PA later on....


I hope this helps.
 

[crazyforhim]

Thanks Limitless,
That was my next question...I wasn't sure if HB had articles too!

[Shantilly Lace]

CFH,
sometimes I feel Dearheart is dipping his toe in another stage awakening as he is still with ow.  It feels different.  I mean I have now tried to drive Dearheart out ( a few weeks ago) and he point blank refused, so where does that leave him.  In the past he has threatened to leave if I pushed, and man this time did I push.  Something changed but still he has plans with ow and the like.  To me  it is replay. 
He has reconnected with the house, his house, doing things around it, big plans and some coming to fruition. 
He is trying to connect with the eldest girls whom he had disconnected the most.  He spends time with them inviting them to go with him on jaunts, there is a whole heap of things he is trying to do with them.
 
oops thanks HB
 
 

[limitless]

CFM,

I found the article.

Here is the exerpt -

The Affair in Liminality
Some believe that the OW relationship will not survive into Liminal Depression and that this break-up may even be what facilitates the transition into Liminality. Though the latter may be true, it is not so in all circumstances, and the idea that the affair will not continue beyond Separation is misleading. The affair can continue through Liminality, but the nature of the relationship will change. The fantasy woman let her guard down and revealed herself; instead of infatuated, the MLCer may now feel trapped or stuck. Since he's destroyed everything else in his life, he might as well suffer through it and make this last thing work.


Here is the link:

http://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/mlc_overview_liminality.html

[Affaircare]

Wow I write a post and do a new project for a few days and LOOK WHAT HAPPENS!  LOL  Okay I have a lot of catching up and replying to do.    Let me jump right in!

Quoting Affaircare: "FOR THEM what you were doing to them hurt them deeply until eventually they hit an inner crisis point.  FOR THEM it was bad enough to consider doing what they know is wrong and what makes them internally ILL"

You've written that whatever we did hurt them badly enough to hit an inner crisis point.  How would that account for the single person who has an MLC?  That presumes it takes two to tango and I'm sorry but I don't believe that is true 100% of the time.   Maybe 1% or maybe 99% but not 100%. 

And what do I take from the statements my H has made over and over again that I haven't done anything to hurt him, ever and that these are his internal issues about failure and fears of aging and so forth?

I don't think anything is 100% BonBon.  There aren't 100% clinging boomerangs or 100% vanishers.  There aren't 100% affairs.  Very little in MLC life is 100%!   But even for a single person, the reason they go into MLC is because of some sort of crisis, and crisis means there is pain involved.  Something is hurting them.  Now, if they're single it may be something like being involved in a lifestyle that they also internally think is wrong...or doing something so against their inner core that they get conflicted about it.  But if they're married, a relationship of two individuals is involved, and often (not every single time but maybe 99% of the time or 98%...often) a portion of the internal conflict is that they thought THIS and it turned out THAT or they have slowly done THAT. 

As an example, BonBon, you say that your husband says his MLC is due to "his internal issues about failure and fears of aging."  I could say similar for my own Dear Hubby because when I was in MLC it was due to feeling like an old dried up prune,  like I couldn't have children, like we wouldn't have a sex life anymore, and like I wasn't ready to be "old" yet.  At the time I didn't even know those were part of the issue--I figured that out after or at the end so to speak!  And yep it's true I am the one responsible for not using healthy communication techniques to talk about my feelings or to help identify a healthier way to deal with it.  Yet I very much remember trying to talk to Dear Hubby and he sort of acted uncomfortable, changed the subject, and avoided.  After so many tries...I gave up trying.  Once you give up that, other things are "given up" on and it's like a cascade effect. 

So my post isn't about "hey, BonBon is to blame for her hubby's MLC and choices" but rather to say that the two of you were in an intimate relationship.   He made his own choices, but if the intimacy was not only physical but also emotional and mental, then there was some sort of break down or issue.  And rather than deflecting responsibility or saying that the two of you just need to "do dates" and you'll reconcile, I'm saying no--there are TWO parts here.  The good stuff that made you fall in love had diminished (doing dates) and the bad stuff that sort of puts out the flame of love increased.  If you only start to increase the good stuff--but continue doing the bad stuff--it's like adding wood to a fire and then putting water on the fire and wondering why the fire doesn't grow. 

If you only did 1% or 2% of the "damage" to the relationship, then you are personally responsible for that 1% or 2%.  The focus would be to look at your own self, and your own actions, and then actively work on the 1% or 2% that is on your side of the street.  Then thereafter the focus is to keep your side of the street clean and to keep looking for healthy ways to respond in the relationship.  The focus isn't on the MLC'ers issues or what they "should" be doing to face their issues.  Nope.  Look at yourself and if needed get your own self to counseling to do exactly what you're hoping for from your MLC'er: namely to be brave enough to face the fact you may have some work to do!

[Affaircare]

... ANY happening or change os some sort can spin someone into a crisis...My h's for example was his father having a heart attack...

We as their spouses, take the brunt of the blame for their unhappiness...or their significant other...I would tend to believe because we are the closest people to them

Yep, my personal theory is that none of us has a perfect childhood--we all have some sort of issues!  And in childhood we have little internal bombs implanted that are going to "go off" when we grow up. 

Then when we grow up and the thing occurs that sets off the bomb, some of us do not have the tools to deal with the bomb well.  Others have better personal tools or skills and deal with the bomb in a healthier way. 

[Affaircare]

Very interesting post here Affaircare.  My own theory is that MLC is caused primarily by the MLCer's personal issues, but that once BD occurs it is a prime time for us as LBSers to look at ourselves and our role within the relationship.  What do we need to improve about ourselves?  What can we do to improve the dynamic within our relationship?   Because you are right, none of us is perfect.  We all have issues, and perhaps we never would have faced them unless forced to.  That being said, I think if a MLC is brewing, it would happen even if the MLCer was married to "the perfect spouse."

  Well said!  I think this is about what I think too!

[growing every day]

MY H is 100% a vanisher Affaircare. He has not been home since January. Hard to believe that in a few months it will be a year since I have seen him. Sometimes I really have to close my eyes and think hard about what he looks like. The last time I saw him he did not look well.

In my therapy session today, I talked about how I had the dream that I had an woke up feeling as if I had passed my H by. I've worked on myself and in the end if I have passed him by, it won't be because I have not given him every opportunity to come home and to work on things. It's kind of like when someone goes to the doctor and says it hurts when I raise my arm over my head. And the doctor says.. well don't lift you arm over your head like that. Her knows how I feel , he knows I am here taking care of everything, he knows .....and I will no longer tell him.... he knows. But if thinking about him makes my heart hurt.. well as the doctor would say... don't think of him. I am finding it easier and easier to do.

Two months ago I would have never been able to say this. Now I can... and mean it. I have let go of my H and I have done so with love. I have forgiven him and I have forgiven me. He is not the enemy... he really never has been. There are no real winners and losers in this. Except that because of this I am learning to be the me that has been missing for so long. I wish my H were here to see it, but the truth of the matter is, he Isn't and hasn't been. That is not going to stop me. Every night I pray for God to protect my H and heal his heart.. whatever that means. Whether it's with me or not. I wish my H peace, and in doing so, I bring myself some peace. It truly is liberating.

[HeartsBlessing]

Yes, crazy, an MCLer can end replay and still be with OW/OM. But it will not be the same thing. Some MClers remain married to the affair partner, or with the affair partner. Some people here on the forum had talked about such cases. Don't remember a single one where the MCLer had been happy or did not regret had remained with the affair partner. Also don't recall a single MLC i know of, form my life, where the MCLer, once out of the crisis, had not regret it all.

Anne,

You're speaking of a totally different possibility; one where the MLC'er MAY choose to go on and marry the OW while in Replay; but this does NOT end the crisis, nor will it end the stage of Replay, the MLC'er who marries the affair is still in a fantasy world; therefore stays in REPLAY either for some time or the rest of their lives.  In fact, the crisis as a whole CONTINUES for the MLC'er...
And most of them after they go stupid and marry their affair end up stuck in the tunnel; the affair partner has NO clue nor inclination to help them; therefore their time can either be lengthened because of this mistake or they choose NOT to go any farther; and remain within the stage of Replay for the rest of their lives.


For a MLC'er to be able to return and rebuild their marriage with the LBS; the affair partner MUST be GONE completely in order to navigate to the next stage.  They must awaken to what they are doing first before things begin to change toward the latter end of Replay.

Either way; various issues must be resolved in order to continue navigation; and this depends on what their next move is; whether they decide to dissolve the affair and return to their spouse, or go on with their affair partner.

Again, the choice to do whatever they choose is up to THEM.

Oh, and in regards in any articles from me; you'll find them ALL over the board discoursing on various subjects.

[Affaircare]

AnneJ, you wrote: "Star, but if you, like Syn, think you play a big part in your husband's case and that it may make sense they leave and have another person, than, why do you mind so much they left and have another person?...Sorry if I'm sounding harsh."

Maybe it's because of a fundamental difference in the view of what marriage is and isn't.  For example, I view marriage as if *I* made a promise to my Dear Hubby to forsake all others for only him.  He did also make a promise like that to me.  BUT It is not relevant whether he is keeping his promise for me to hold MYSELF to keeping MY promise.  Also, I'm not in the marriage to have my needs met but rather to be a student of Dear Hubby and learn how to meet his needs. 

Thus, it doesn't make sense for him to leave and be with another person (because he made the promise too), but it does make sense to say "Hmmm...I didn't hold up my end of the promise and thus I do need to acknowledge that."

AnneJ, you wrote: "offmyrocker, you say "I have apologized to my h because i grew enough to know that there were some things that i could have done differently." But did he apologise to you for what he have done' I'm certain that, before the MLC he had also things he would had done differently.

It amazes me a bit that is the "offended party" that needs to look fault within and apologise and not the "offender".  Let alone when they have not even come out of the crisis and are still out there doing wrong things. OK, we can look within, nothing wrong with that but to think we are the responsable ones for someone MCL, or have a great part to do with it, is going too far.

Okay again I think this is a fundamental different way of viewing marriage and personal responsibility.  I'll use my own self as an example here.  My exH was verbally abusive in the form of calling names, screaming at loud volume, twisting my words, and making threats.  HOWEVER, during a fight that does not give me then the justification to also be verbally abusive to him!  So I look at myself and I realize "Hey guess what?  Yes it took years and I gradually slipped into responding in an abusive way, and yes it's kind of understandable how I got here, but facts is facts.  I'm being verbally abusive too!"  So I am personally responsible for myself and my choices, whether he is being verbally abusive or not.  If he is being verbally abusive, I have many, many choices I could make that do not involve being abusive back...and yet as humans the fact is that we often slip into that. 

So I'm in agreement with offmyrocker.  If I was calling him names, screaming, twisting his words or making threats to try to get him to stop doing something--I am responsible for what I chose to do.  Even if I'm the offended party, I gradually allowed myself to "go there."   And this is why I say that even if he continues to be verbally abusive, I can make other choices and I do have the responsibility to admit what I did do, learn new ways to respond, and keep my side of the street clean.  Thus, if he chooses to continue to be abusive, I am not joining in the fray.   Make sense?