[StandandDeliver]

Very, VERY often an MLC'er will say something like "I haven't been happy for years" and what they mean is that resentment has slowly been building over the years until it became intolerable (crisis). 

I wanted to go back to Affaircare's original post. Because I agree and disagree. I agree that it is easy to pretend that our marriages were perfect and that there was only something wrong with the MLCer. For most of us, that would be a rewrite of history. However, I never expected marriage to be "perfect". I never even expected it to be "easy". We were two complicated human beings trying to make a life together work. It required communication, openness and even some hard work. Our marriage was definitely not perfect for either of us at BD. I had some problems with H which I had tried in various ways and at various times to discuss. He did not want to discuss anything. He OBVIOUSLY also had problems with me, but when I asked him, he never LET on that I might be a problem. We talked about his problems at work, we talked about his identity issues (I still did not know he was in crisis, I thought he was just sorting out some things in his own head - in my own defense I had a newborn and a preschooler and was rather preoccupied with two small children, so I did sometimes just think, "fgs, grow up and realise that we all have problems and we need to accept we are adults and have responsibilities - this teenage angst is so badly timed". I reiterate, MLC did not occur to me at this point. H was only 34.)

I did contribute to problems in the marriage, but I have always been open to honest communication about things and I do not think that I am a horribly judgemental person. At some point in his crisis (and it may have happened insidiously or it may even have started from a good intention - to protect me when I was post partum and looking after a tiny baby) he decided that he did not WANT to talk about anything with ANYONE, me included. He spent months journalling (I found out a BD) and what he wrote was often vaguely crazy (some of it came out in MC) and generally VERY VERY teenage angsty - the sort of stuff that most of us did work out at around the age of 16 - 22. 

There was no opportunity for me to change anything about me, because I was not included in H's decision making process about the marriage AT ANY POINT. He internalised everything and made unilateral decisions about our family, including dating another woman, without giving me the option of working on anything with him. He spent a lot of time in the few months before BD, when he was in his affair, making me believe I was crazy. If I asked him to do the dishes, he would say that all I wanted him for was to help with the kids and I didn't love him anymore. I would respond, "of course I love you, but I am tired after looking after 2 infants all day, so yes I do want you to help with the kids too". And he would say, "but that is all that you want me for" and I would say, "no, but I could say the same to you, all you want me for is to look after the kids, is that true?"

Maybe if I had been on the outside of this discussion I would have seen that he was trying to tell me he didnt feel loved. But when I tried to show him I loved him, he would dismiss that too. If I tried to cuddle him, whatever. So I couldnt win anyway. How do you compete with the mother of all alienators, a psychological crisis. I could not get in his brain and alter his brain chemistry. I could not change anything about me that would have stopped his running. I truly believe that. Does that mean I am perfect. Of course not.

[kikki]

But when I tried to show him I loved him, he would dismiss that too. If I tried to cuddle him, whatever. So I couldnt win anyway. How do you compete with the mother of all alienators, a psychological crisis. I could not get in his brain and alter his brain chemistry. I could not change anything about me that would have stopped his running. I truly believe that. Does that mean I am perfect. Of course not.

Nicely put - 'How do you compete with the mother of all alienators - a psychological crisis'.

[StandandDeliver]

Wow T&L - great minds think alike - you have said what I was trying to say, but more eloquently!

[justasking]

None of it was reciprocated by my H. 

There will be no reciprocal conversations until the process is complete.

The discussion about the issues both before BD and post BD are reliant on the process being completed by the MLCer and reconciliation with the spouse.

We must all remember that these men/women who are true MLCers are thrust onto the journey by outside forces long before our time with them. We were then used to justify their unhappiness and leaving. But this journey and the processes involved have to be completed before any reconciliation can happen.

Like most MLCers my H has said and done some despicable things to both me and our children. But I know I can't blame him as I know why he is on his journey and the reason why he is on it. All I can do is completely detach and let him go.

Blaming them lets them pull us constantly on the rollercoaster, which will destroy us emotionally. T&L is right it is the MLC that is to blame and not our H/W. IMO the emotion tagged onto blame needs to be channelled into proactively moving forward with our lives and not make us feel hopeless and lacking control with the cards we have been dealt.

xx

[stayed]

Sorry, I don't accept any of the blame/reasons for spouses MLC.  I am more then willing to take my share of the blame for the state the marriage had gotten into.  No marriage is perfect.  Ours was no different, he had been slowly drifting into MLC since the 1997 or so.  We did counseling for about 6 or 7 sessions, but he played the counselor perfectly, made me look like a totally insane, menopausal witch, hehehe. Probably was true actually, I was menopausal.

There is lots of blame to go around in any marriage.  MLC is a whole new can of worms.  Nobody is to blame.  All any one can do is dive for cover, hang in as long as they can, try to stay healthy, mentally, physically and emotionally and see what happens. 

Nobodies the enemy here.  Venting is a healthy release.  If we can't vent in here, I am lost as to where we can.

hugs Stayed

[Thundarr]

Ok, so going back to AC's first post I guess I DID contribute to the breakdown of my marriage.  I chose to like Britney Spears and should have known that no rational woman would put up with that.  I also chose to be a conservative, not realizing that was a deal-breaker.  On top of that, I didn't age well and realize now that I could not expect any woman to have to live with that.  The kicker, though, is that I chose to be me and should not blame her for not liking 95% about me after 21 years together.  I also should not read into the fact that she told me she loved me every day up until less than a week pre-BD and that we made love several times a day sometimes in the months before BD.  I should know better than to read into the fact that my W posted about how proud she was of me on her Facebook back in March or that we would hold each other just about every night after she waited up for me to get home from school so that we could enjoy watching our favorite show while snuggling on the couch.  How could I have been so stupid?  I should have known better.

For any who could not detect it, or if it is not a part of their culture - that first paragraph was pure sarcasm.  The title of this thread would suggest a level of empathy for the MLCer, and I totally agree that they are not the "enemy" and that we should not treat them as such.  But, this whole $hit about "contributing to the breakdown of the marriage" is outrageous.  The marriage did not "break down," but rather one of the spouses did.  What is happening with that spouse has NOTHING to do with the other spouse and I cite my own sitch on that as my W has suddenly forgotten she's a parent and acts like the teenager from down the street who baby-sits from time to time.  I think it's ludicrous to say that the "marriage broke down" because, as so many before have stated, one of the partners was either unwilling or unable to take any action whatsoever to make things right.  And, honestly, I don't believe there really was anythnig out of the ordinary to make right in most of the cases.  Again, in my own sitch we struggled with money but rarely disagreed about parenting and enjoyed doing the same things and watching the same movies and shows together.  We enjoyed each other's company and made each other laugh daily.  As far as the 5 Love Languages go, I can testify that I practiced that.  My W's main love languages were quality time and physical touch, and those were practiced routinely.  My kids would vouch for that.  I worked my ass off for my marriage and family, and put up with more than most husbands would have.  My W was not and is not perfect, and I don't expect or even want her to be.  I would take the old W back as she was a wonderful mother and loving spouse, notwithstanding being a slob who hated to do housework and laundry.

AC, I'm pretty sure that you know that I have a great deal of respect for you and hold you in very high regard.  That being said, please do not take offense to what I'm about to say as I feel it needs to be said and I'm definitely open to a good debate and/ or counter-point.

I feel that a Discussion Topic such as this could be very damaging to several here, but mostly to the newbies on here.  I'm finally at a place where I feel both really good, hopeful, but also realistic about the fact that my W may never come back and I will have to permanently adjust to a new life.  I went into the thread expecting to find information about loving our spouses unconditionally and perhaps a bit of sympathy for what they're going through (I wouldn't trade places with her for all the money in the world) but what I found really read like blaming the LBS and pointing fingers at their shortcomings.  It rocked me a little bit and brought me down just a bit before I was able to get a grip and pull myself back up.  I really worry about someone whose pain is still raw reading that and spiralling into depression and self-loathing due to blaming themself for being abandoned.  I think we all have a responsibility to think about who may be reading our posts, and for every one like AC and I who are vocal and confident in what they write, there are probably 10 more who are either too afraid or too insecure to actually post and end up lurking and reading the whole time.  Those are probably the most fragile among us, and we all have a responsibility to comfort and reassure them as best we can.

I believe all the literature about MLC would point to the fact that the spouse is not at all to blame and that abandoning the family is part of the running away symptom. I've seen several men and women who have been through this state that it IS NOT about the spouse and that they did not cause it.  Shepherdess and Stayed's H come to mind instantly, and if I wasn't rushed I would be able to think of more.  AC, given that you have self-reported going through an MLC-like condition, is it possible that you may still be speaking from the fog somewhat?  I know that several have mentioned about a lady who had her own site about MLC that fell apart after several found out that she was still in the fog, so how do any of us know when someone is truly out as they can seem so lucid.  Not saying you are, AC, but your first post REALLY threw me for a loop as it seems to be a bit out of character for you.  Either way, I stand by my previous statements about how what has been written could be very damaging.

[honour]

AC, given that you have self-reported going through an MLC-like condition, is it possible that you may still be speaking from the fog somewhat?  I know that several have mentioned about a lady who had her own site about MLC that fell apart after several found out that she was still in the fog, so how do any of us know when someone is truly out as they can seem so lucid.  Not saying you are, AC, but your first post REALLY threw me for a loop as it seems to be a bit out of character for you.  Either way, I stand by my previous statements about how what has been written could be very damaging.

I was a member at the site to which you refer Thundarr and the original post of this thread bears alarming similarity to the tone of Christine's posts before she closed down her site.

honour

[LisaLives]

Thanks Thundarr--I had a hard time sleeping last night, which rarely happens to me, even through the worst and bleakest post-BD days--I am a good sleeper.  I resepct a lot of what AC writes, but I don't believe she comes from a true MLC perspective.  She writes more about "affair crisis."  I think that people who have regular vanilla affairs are also in a marraige crisis that can seem like a mini-MLC.  I think my exH may even be that, and not a true MLC.  However, even in the case of straight vanilla affairs and all the writings on it, there is a LOT of blame put on the other spouse.  I don't buy that.  Sure we all contribute to unhealthy aspects of a marriage, and after 20 years, I had a lot of time to screw things up.  But I always come back to--WHO turned, WHO walked away, WHO did not communicate.  Under all of that is a value judgment that it is easier, better, more exciting, whatever, to turn and look somewhere else than to work on the marriage. 

I know a woman had an affair when her husband refused to work on the marriage--you might say she was justified and HE should look at his issues.  It is true, and he will acknowledge he was sorry he did not try harder, but at some point, she should have thrown down the gauntlet and said, "if you will not work with me, I am done" and left before the affair.  There are rights and wrongs.  Good people can and do make mistakes all the time, and both people contribute to the state of the marriage, but I think for me to "work" on whatever I did wrong in a partnership, by myself, is a tremendous waste of time--after all one of my biggest offenses is that I don't clear the time off the microwave and I won't check pockets before doing laundry...  I have better things to do.  Plus, I would like to find a man who can look at the blinking microwave and be so thankful that we had great morning sex and I still took the time to make him breakfast, that perhaps he might empty his own pockets, or MAYBE even do a load of laundry once in a while! 

I don't blame my exH for any of his feelings or even for leaving me for not clearing the time off the microwave.  I blame him for not having enough love and respect for me and his kids, and our history, that he could treat me so horribly on his way out the door.  And so, sometimes he is the enemy.  He threatened to take my kids away and made me get an attorney to fight for child support.  At some point, some part of him became the enemy, and in many cases here, the MLCer may not be the enemy but MLC is, and for many people at some point in this journey, they have to be strong enough to FIGHT that person, so too much naval gazing and self-blame is not productive or conducive to self-protection.  Just my opinion, Lisa     

[CrazyStuff]

Thundarr

Thank you.   

I am in complete agreement with the comments in your post and especially the bit about:

I think we all have a responsibility to think about who may be reading our posts, and for every one like AC and I who are vocal and confident in what they write, there are probably 10 more who are either too afraid or too insecure to actually post and end up lurking and reading the whole time.  Those are probably the most fragile among us, and we all have a responsibility to comfort and reassure them as best we can

I won't rehash my own personal situation here except to say that my h. and I had made changes to our lives in the years before BD as a result of an earlier aborted attempt at MLC (seems to be quite common although at the time I didn't know what I was dealing with) and that we were closer than ever.      I knew instinctively that this was not about me and that there was nothing I could do except let my h. go to do whatever he needed to do.      It was only on finding this forum that the madness that had entered the life of my family began to make sense.      My h.'s crisis was not caused by me nor our relationship.    It has; however, pushed both of us into finding ourselves even if for now my h. chooses to distract himself with OW.     

I have no doubt that my h. is in crisis and the best thing I can do for both of us is to get to a place of strength and wholeness as an individual.       If I ever get a chance to speak to my h. about our marriage then I hope we can work out together what we want from a new relationship.   Until then back to taking care of myself first......



CrazyStuff

[BonBon]

After the first post I wrote on this, I was asked where AffairCare said her words applied to all....so as was suggested, I went back and re-read her post.  And I do believe she wrote with a very broad brush.  Some of her points may be valid indeed, but not for everyone.
And maybe that needed to be clarified better.  Maybe this is too upsetting a topic to not be very, very, even overly careful when painting with that broad brush.

I can't add much more or anything better than other people have and Thundarr's post was in my opinion, exceedingly well stated and got right to it. 

The first thing I though when I read the OP was that it was coming from an MLC point of view.  Sorry, but that's my honest reaction, one that I didn't want to say but was fairly certain of.  And I wonder who single people blame their MLC's on. And I wonder how the children who get trashed in all of this change themselves to better please the MLCer.  Sorry for the sarcasm but this is WAY too broad a brush and in my opinion, more excuses.

For the record, my husband is not the enemy either.  No matter how hurt, angry, betrayed I may have felt, I have loved him enough to stand and I would not do that to an enemy.