[Which of these do you believe was the main factor triggering your spouse's MLC?]

Which of these do you believe was the main factor triggering your spouse's MLC?

Stress and/ or burnout

12 (25%)

Medication

1 (2.1%)

Dealing with childhood issues

10 (20.8%)

Hormonal changes

3 (6.3%)

Depression

8 (16.7%)

Neurological changes, unrelated to anything outside

1 (2.1%)

Underlying personality disorder,

7 (14.6%)

Social fears (aging, mortality, children leaving, etc.)

2 (4.2%)

Genetics

0 (0%)

External factors (work, OW, etc.)

1 (2.1%)

None of these (please add a note) Death of his mother

3 (6.3%)

Total Members Voted: 48

Voting closed: August 20, 2016, 03:03:33 PM

[Thundarr]

Hey OP,

Please share your thoughts on this if you don't mind.  I posed these questions here since it was a discussion thread and it's great to get other viewpoints on this.

[Mermaid]

1.  How would you explain the correlation between age and onset?  Women tend to all go into it at around 35-45, men around 45-55.  Would you attribute this to hormonal changes?

There are some people who attribute some of these changes hormonal changes, such as Jed Diamond, in "The Irritable Male Syndrome" http://www.menalive.com/ims-splash.htm. We know that hormones affect mood and behaviour, but also that very few men actually have a sudden drop in testosterone. For most of them, it's a gradual process, and this doesn't correlate to the sudden changes in behaviour that we denote as MLC or psychological crises.

 The ages you cite as being typically MLC are not widely agreed upon. Not everyone goes through a crisis at midlife. Some go through crises at other ages (my H had an earlier one at 21); in fact Erikson says there are specific types of psychological crises at different ages. Other researchers say there is no evidence for MLC at all: see http://www.apa.org/monitor/apr03/researchers.aspx

2.  How would you explain the consistency of bizarre behaviors exhibited such as the eyes, illogical thinking, overwhelming compulsion to run away, magical thinking etc.? 

Why do you think there is a consistency in these behaviours? This forum, which is not a systematic, scientific basis for study, shows partners with a wide range of behaviours. For example, my H has never shown signs of magical thinking. All of the behaviours you mention are examples of defence mechanisms; they protect the ego at times of crisis. And all of us, including LBS, are susceptible.
 

3.  You mention that there are not truly stages, and that stages can be skipped altogether.  Can you enlighten me on some examples of this?

From this website, the myth of stages of dying, death and grief http://grief.net/Myth%20of%20Stages.pdf

In other areas of psychology, stages are not inevitable, step-like and connected to maturation, but the result of psychological reorganisations as individuals mature in social contexts together with their care giver. See Schaffer's chapter in "An introduction to Vygotsky " by Harry Daniels, 2001.

As for MLC itself, Sherman ""there is as yet no evidence for developmental periods or 'stages' in the mid-life period" Edmund A. Sherman - 1987 "male mid-life crisis" - Psychology

4.  Given your statements, do you believe that time frames are dependable in that this can take a certain minimum amount of time or do you believe that this can resolve in a shorter amount of time than what is generally believed here?

I don't think there is a minimum amount of time. I suppose that some people resolve their crisis quickly, so that it is not noticed much. I know one or two cases, personally. All it seemed to take was a couple of weeks retreat, and the individuals concerned realised what they wanted and what their response should be.

We are all here on the forum because of the deep crises we have in our lives, so these are longer term problems. The types of individual problems people have will also affect the outcome, as will their ability to find adaptive responses. Some people, as we know, manage to go through their whole lives without finding mature responses to the problems of life that they face.

5.  What is the minimum amount of time that a person has gone through this that you know of, and do you believe that they truly "come of of a fog"?

As I said, a couple of weeks. But their crisis wasn't so deep.

Do any of us truly come out of our fogs? We are all human, all fallible, subject to our own perceptions, and there is no ultimate truth or pure perception of reality. We all have defence mechanisms to some degree. We can feel more certain of our decisions, less confused, and behave more consistently with our inner beliefs at some times than others. Is this "being out of the fog? " What if one person thought they were being rational and clear, and another thought they were delluding themselves? This happens all the time.

Lisa, I've just seen your reply, and I'll check out your book references. Thanks!

 I don't think all MLC crisis corresponds to teenage behaviour (although sometimes they do seem to regress). The theory that parents have a hard time adjusting when their kids reach an age of their own maladjustment, is (as far as I can see) just a theory; there is no consistent, valid supporting evidence for this. (But please correct me if I'm wrong). Anecdotal experience doesn't count as evidence that it happens in the population in general.

Thanks OP.

which show that each decade there is a chance for a crisis.starting at 20 until 70

This also shows that hormones are not enough on their own. There are other factors too! But of course hormones affect us, and not just the main sex hormones, such as oestrogen, progesterone and testosterone. We are regular chemical banks of hormones, fuelled by the environment and food, which affect every aspect of our behaviour and thinking.

[Thundarr]

Very concise and detailed answers, Mermaid.  So, given those, might I assume that you discount the Conways' research and theories on this?  And, if so, what do you think their motives and intentions were with focusing on MLC so much in their literature and practice?

As a therapist, it has been incredibly difficult for me to label my W's behviors and actions when no extensive scientific research has been done that would corroborate the findings of the few who have written about MLC.  I know my W is going through something, and everyone around me sees it especially the kids.  Her personality change is drastic to say the least, and it is ironic that she fits so well with the W's of the other guys I talk to regulary on Lifetwo.  In fact, we often get it confused whose W we're talking about as they seem to show the exact same symptoms. 

This theory of it being specific psychological crises gives me some ray of hope of eventually being able to isolate the catalyst and minimizing its effect on the situation.  I would like to be able to help her in some way indirectly, but realize that any attempt to engage or intervene direclty would be seen as controlling and push her deeper into whatever psychological cave she has retreated into.  Any suggestions in that area?

[OldPilot]

1.  How would you explain the correlation between age and onset?  Women tend to all go into it at around 35-45, men around 45-55.  Would you attribute this to hormonal changes?

2.  How would you explain the consistency of bizarre behaviors exhibited such as the eyes, illogical thinking, overwhelming compulsion to run away, magical thinking etc.? 

3.  You mention that there are not truly stages, and that stages can be skipped altogether.  Can you enlighten me on some examples of this?

4.  Given your statements, do you believe that time frames are dependable in that this can take a certain minimum amount of time or do you believe that this can resolve in a shorter amount of time than what is generally believed here?

5.  What is the minimum amount of time that a person has gone through this that you know of, and do you believe that they truly "come of of a fog"?

1) See my previous post for this answer

2) Since so many of these crisis revolve around depression, hormones, and mental illness like condtions,
well I ask you have you ever seen a mentally ill person NOT act this way, while in the depths of crisis?
Now my knowledge is somewhat limited, because I am not involved day to day with mentally ill people as part of my job.
But I do have 45 years of dealing with a bi-polar mother to fall back on. And I can tell you that #2 describes that perfectly.

3) I disagree here with Mermaid, but only from my own experience having witnessed all the stages with my wife through withdrawal. So again maybe I do not have yet enough experience to see other sichs.
Also as far as the stages, are we talking about Heart Blessing/Conwat stages or RCR/Erichson as these are different and yet close to being the same?
I think that stages that appear to be skipped, or returned to, might be just erroneous information that is being given to the LBS.  I mean if my wife has an other person that I am unaware of, then every thing I have seen so far could be thrown  away. It would mean she is still in replay, and I agree she is still in Escape and Avoid. But whether she skipped stages or regressed to a previous stage I am not yet convinced of that.
I will only truly know when the entire process finishs and then I can go back and relook at what has happened.

4)Time is not a factor in this. - Only a gift - and it takes as long as it takes.

5) From the people that I have spoken to or read it appears that they do emerge from the fog.
How long - see #4.
However I can tell you that my wife went through PPD for about 4-5 months and then emerged completely normal.
Or she just went into remission until menopause came around.
Will I really ever know.

[Thundarr]

So, given OP's last answer I think we can draw a theoretical baseline here.

OP, can you compare and contrast your observation of your W's behaviors, attitudes and actions during PPD with what you have seen while she was in MLC?

[Synicca]

Thats a good question Thundarr.....since I went through PPD....I see alot of the same behaviours in my honey that I went through...
but...I would love to hear what OP has to say on that??

[Mamma Bear]

 OP Thanks for that.  You got me thinking about that Tootsie Roll commercial. The one where the owl says "How many licks til you get to the center of a Tootsie Roll Pop? The World may never know!"   

[OldPilot]

I will try however it was 23 years ago and it was a much shorter time frame.

I remember we were getting divorced, I was NO GOOD, life was horrible.
I remember just detaching for a while and NO action was ever taken on the divorce.
But I am sure that I made changes that may have eventually led to what is happening now.
Started closing my business earlier, tried to spend more time with my kids.
Appeasing my wife for what she wanted and her needs.

When it was over, everything more or less went back to normal.
My wife started taking B-6 to help with her hormones.
She had an awareness of what happened.
But it was not something we spent that much time talking about.
Life was then VERY  good.

That is all I can remember right now.
Maybe something else will trigger more memories.

[LisaLives]

Mermaid, I was not saying that it is always related to adolescence, only that there are theories that it is not self-age related, but related to external factors.  I just wanted to throw those books out as alternative theories--just to broaden his perspective in this searching phase.  Having read everything I could in my searching phase, I came out  believing in a phenomenon that we can call MLC, but I don't think the cause is the same for everyone, or that everyone experiences it the same way.   

I believe people have psychological breakdowns related to all different kinds of causes--just like we can have physical ones, and they can be as severe as a complete mental breakdown--like a fatal cardiac episode, severe like MLC, or a ruptured disc--or mild like a MLT or a torn ACL.  Some people will have severe issues, and are probably destined, some people have a predisposition but overcome it, and some people have no obvious reasons. 

BUT, I do think that there are so many common psychological indicators in MLCers that you can see predictive factors, certain FOO issues, narcissistic tendencies, intimacy avoidance...  But I don't believe there is any real evidence of a "process" or that everyone gets through the tunnel or fog.  But that's just me.  I know too many men who have been stuck in MLC lala land for a LONG time to believe they are processing anything in any timeframe--they will die of an STD or a DUI accident before they defog...  But anyway, I just wanted to throw some alternate perspectives out there...  Lisa

[WarriorPriestess]

This is a very interesting thread.  Mermaid, what you say about your H rings so true to me in many ways.  My H's MLC appears to be a perfect storm of major FOO issues, a lifelong struggle with depression, intimacy issues and workaholic/burnout syndrome.  A couple years ago, we were both researching health issues like adrenal fatigue and vitamin B and D deficiencies (physiological changes that can be caused by burnout) as possible contributing factors as well.

My H does seem very self aware in many ways.  He is a low energy MLCer.  He went straight from anger into an 18 month overt depression stage, and acknowledged that he was depressed, and that he had a long history of dealing with it.  He has a high level high stress job,  but has also been dealing with the current economic market and lack of job security/enjoyment for the last several years. 

He has not been wise with money, and although he made a lot in his past, he blew through it all, and now is very aware of being 50 years old, with no savings and no retirement funds. 
When I look at Maslow's hierarchy of needs, it is apparent that until he meets this level of needed safety and security, he will in no way be able to address those levels higher up on the pyramid.  For those of you who don't know what I'm referring to, here is a link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Maslow%27s_Hierarchy_of_Needs.svg

The theory of MLC being triggered by the wife's aging does not fit in my situation, as I am 13 years younger than H.  If anything, it helps validate that "it's not me."