[Faith]

HB, Thank you for your lengthy and intuitive response to me - I truly appreciate it.  I believe God uses you to minister to all of us here and I trust your words.  You are totally right that I have ignored H several times for a period of time, but then he has managed to suck me back in with crazy allegations and such.  I have gotten much stronger and feel like I can make that firm boundary now.  It's so hard to give up the fight to make them see reason and logic, but it has to be done.  I have had to encourage my D17 to give up that battle too as I see the frustration and anguish those conversations cause her. 

I want to thank every one of you who have posted such encouraging words to me here.  I would love to respond to every one personally, but just can't handle it emotionally right now.  Just know how deeply I appreciate everyone who took the time to respond - you are such a wonderful group of people.  I am praying for all of you.

[Stillpraying]

Faith,
I'm reading your thread and HB's posts and really feel being spoken to also.  maybe I'm wrong, but I always get a sense when something said just resonates with me and I feelo God directing a word to me also.  My H is far from God.  I can see it in his actions etc. Of course he justifies everything and believes he's forgiven even if he's not repentent.  He also makes sure to point out the 'damage' I am doing to the children and the things I 'should' be doing  (as he maintains he is doing ) if I want to be a good parent.  It's just laughable really.  Like he thinks I just buy it all .

I'm sitting here sweating after cleaning out the bungalow/shed since H removed all his junk last week.  It looks great and we can now store stuff that we've been keeping in the house.  So therapudic.  It's quite a warm day here so I am getting a good work out while at it. 

Another good book I've found helpful which discusses bounderies and a whole lot more is '10 life saving principles for women in difficult marriages'.  I'm reading it again on the train to work and it just gives me strength and helpful tips and examples of how to handle things even thoguh I'm not with H any more.

Hugs
and have a very happy christmas and new year.
SP

[Faith]

SP,
Those accusations about how we're "hurting" the kids must be part of the MLC script too.  They really are ridiculous.  My H also believes he's forgiven and that he and God are "just fine" because he was driven by me to his bad behaviors.  Our marriage was a mistake and not God's will, therefore it is God's will that we divorce and H is set free to be happy with someone else.  The stuff they convince themselves of is incredible, and it certainly doesn't come from any Bible I've read.  What makes me furious is when he tries to convince our daughters of these lies.  I pray constantly that they will have wisdom and discernment to know the truth.

Thank you for mentioning that book!  It sounds like something that could be very helpful for a couple friends of mine too, so I will definitely check it out.  Congrats on getting your bungalow cleaned out!  I agree, it's very theraputic to rid our space of their stuff once they've gone.  I can't imagine sweating though as it's very cold where I live!   

Merry Christmas to you too!

[HeartsBlessing]

Yeah what about the one:
"Someday the kids will have thier own lives and what are you and I going to do together??"

A gentle correction here, this sentence is NOT part of the MLC script; it indicates "future" speak, and part of this particular MLC'er wondering ahead of time what will happen once the children leave home; and he/she is LEFT with the spouse.  It can be part of their consideration when making a decision about THEIR marriage.   And, they may or may NOT speak of this; InThisForTheLongHaul got a very RARE look into her MLC spouse's mind when he spoke in this way.

This tells me he's seriously considering staying with her at a later time when he makes a final decision on HIS marriage; that's assuming nothing happens that changes his mind once this decision comes to the fore to be looked at.

This is also assuming that SHE will still want him; but this particular question/doubt that she might NOT want him to return to her, hasn't occurred to him, just yet, but it will.

They DO think they run the whole show, and this particular controlling aspect IS a part of the MLC script; they are controlling and manipulating; but at times, you will see "hurt" children within them, even at the very height of their rebellion.

For now, he's asking a lot of questions; most of them are within himself, part of his journey...this is also part of the LBS journey as they ask these same types of questions of themselves in a different way.

He's wondering if there will be anything "left" to work with once the children leave home; and it indicates he's aware this is will come in the FUTURE.

As a matter of fact, my husband and I had this discussion not long after he exited the tunnel the first time back in late 2002; and at that time, there were NO signs of MLC in him at that time; his secondary crisis didn't come until almost two years later.   This was a reasonable question for us BOTH to ask, as there IS a transformation to the couple they were before the children came along; the only difference is the couple is older; knows more, and this same question can come at a time when the children are nearly grown.

I remember when speaking with my husband, he spoke of things we could do; and a type of life we could lead once son had left home...he voiced that this would make a great many changes in the way we related to each other, and he was right about that.

It is often forgotten the MLC'er's SPOUSE is one of their issues, because they are part of their PAST LIFE, not to mention one of the four enemies as per Jim Conway the MLC'er must resolve during the crisis.

I have never seen the quoted statement as a "guilt reducer", or even passing blame onto the LBS; this is a FACT of life; children are born, grow up, and form their own relational bonds with others and start  households of their own; it is the way of the family to continue this pattern of the life's cycle.

This is also a valid question; and on occasion you CAN get some very profound things our of their mouths, as they continue their search for a "better" life, and deal with some of the real questions at hand.

Empty nest is a very real thing; my husband and I both went through this; and it called for an adjustment; believe it or not, it can also bring on a emotional crisis of a sort; because once the children "fly the nest" the first feeling the parent has is they are NOT needed anymore.

If your work has been done on your children to prepare them for lives of their own, they should NOT need you in a physically caring way(financial support, for example); except for advice at times, and as a sounding board.  Just like you did; they must be allowed to make their mistakes, fall on their faces; and learn to survive, and thrive as mature adults.

NO child was ever meant to remain with mom and dad for their entire lives; there comes a time when the birds must fly the nest and survive on their own.

I was "sheltered" "controlled" and "overprotected" as a child, and the work that should have done was NOT done on me; my HUSBAND had to teach me to be self sufficient; and this was NOT his job; but he did it; and I'm thankful he did.

In turn, I was determined our son would NOT be shortchanged in the way I was; so I started preparation with him when he was still a teenager; teaching him as we went along.

The question remains here is what are they going to do when you are gone for good?   Neither me nor my husband have our parents anymore; we never had help from either set; if we had allowed this, they would have CONTROLLED us, and we did NOT want that.

We did NOT want to be "parented" when we were ourselves, grown adults, and parents ourselves.

I asked for advice when I thought I needed it; and my husband asked the same of his parents when HE thought he needed it...otherwise, they were not allowed to interfere in our business.

We survived as we should have by pulling ourselves up by own bootstraps; and bearing this in mind, I taught son to be self sufficient.

He know if he needs help where we are; but he doesn't ask...call this "pride" or whatever; but he's SUPPOSED to operate in this way; as he has left our household; and has now formed one of his own.

Anyway, I digress...

This was what I remembered from experience; and I saw NO "reduction" of guilt in a statement of this kind.

A "reduction" of guilt is when they are using the children to manipulate and control the LBS; or even using other things within the situation at hand to accuse the LBS of the same things they are doing by using projection to try and get what they've done OFF their backs; and the LBS does NOT need to buy into this aspect....THIS is the MLC script at work.

They will use anything and everything to "reduce" their guilt; and the accusations, and projections WILL fly; right along with their confusion, and spewing; that is also intended to intimidate; and otherwise try and prevent the LBS from standing up to them and setting limits.  They are all about control and manipulating circumstances to fit their OWN agenda.

Be gentle as doves, but wise as serpents when dealing with your MLC spouse. 

Sorry about the hijack, Faith.

Take care.

[HeartsBlessing]

HB, Thank you for your lengthy and intuitive response to me - I truly appreciate it.  I believe God uses you to minister to all of us here and I trust your words.

Honey, bless your heart; I prayed really hard for what to say in answer to your question; and was startled when the "flood" started coming out of me to you.

The Lord has taken care of you all this time, Faith; and He continues to do so....you already know your husband is on the losing end of things; and he doesn't know it; but he will, in time; SEE what  he's done.

I am PRO Marriage all the way, and if a marriage can be saved, I work that direction, as the Lord encourages me to encourage others to stay with it; using myself as an example.

Yet, the Lord, too, for reasons of His own; will deliver a LBS out of their marriage; and I will not always know why, but the LBS will always know...some things aren't meant for me to know as a definite.

Yet, the Lord, when I was going through, presented the possibility to me that my husband could have decided to walk away forever; this was HIS choice; and it didn't matter what I wanted....another aspect of learning we can't control what others do, the decisions they make, nor do we control their growth; although we CAN influence it in various ways; by setting boundaries, and being willing to do whatever is necessary to help them face their consequences for their actions.

I was very discouraged, and broken hearted as I posted what I did to you; but I obeyed the Lord, as not everything I get is good, there is some bad mixed in, and when He gives me a message for someone, it must be given in full; or I will pay serious consequences for disobedience.

Some people don't understand this aspect in me; but after having been chastised several times in the past for "softening the blow"of  what I was told to say; I don't want to go that route again; and pay the price for disobeying the Lord.

My gifts are designed to be used for HIS GLORY, NOT MINE; and He uses me in various ways to help others; and sometimes that means delivering some hard news to others; but I do what I'm told, regardless.

He counseled me afterward, as I got pretty upset about what I'd had to post to you; I was thinking I was "adding" to your burden, but He said you would rather hear the hard truth, than to hear something empty that was designed to try and make you feel better.

You like knowing what you may be facing ahead; and I'm the SAME way...but it's hurts so much to see you in so much emotional pain; and I didn't wish to add to that.

He also reminded me that for every door He allows to close, another will open at a right time with something better.   He also reminded me that I didn't hold the future in my hands, HE DID..and He strengthened me after He spoke with me.

What really made me feel better was when He reconfirmed that He held you and your children in the literal palm of His Hands; and that He WAS taking care of all of you.

I knew this, already, but for once, just needed to hear Him tell me this again.

Faith, you know I love you; I always did; and somewhere in your heart and mine we knew it was coming to this as your husband was getting worse and worse in his behaviors, and nothing you did was stopping him.  You HAD set some boundaries before; but he violated them over and over.

When he shut out the Lord, and allowed the devil to control him; this was a final straw in this aspect....He doesn't give up on us; but like I said, He will give us enough rope to hang ourselves, if necessary to get our attention....and your husband is almost at the end of this rope.

It is a scary thing to fall into the hands of a living God; and we know He is NOT dead; but very much alive, and still working within each individual situation.

I hope this helps further....I'm OK; I was just a little shell shocked last night; not to mention very tired after that post.

Love to you,
HB

 

[NoRegrets]

In my H's case the quote was more like, "I just didn't see a future for us when the children were gone. We have nothing in common."

This was said at BD. It was used as justification for seeking love from another woman. It is not a reducer statement.

The desire for everything to be "amicable" is an attempt to reduce guilt.

[HeartsBlessing]

In my H's case the quote was more like, "I just didn't see a future for us when the children were gone. We have nothing in common."

This was said at BD. It was used as justification for seeking love from another woman. It is not a reducer statement.

This was and is definitely justification for his actions against the marriage...this and many more things can be said not only at BD but beyond as well, as the crisis progresses.

Big difference between that statement and this one:

Yeah what about the one:
"Someday the kids will have thier own lives and what are you and I going to do together??"

Which, like I said, was a valid question.    This is just to clarify the difference.

The desire for everything to be "amicable" is an attempt to reduce guilt.

This desire is an attempt, like you said, to TRY and reduce their guilt; to maybe get the LBS to "buy into" what they are doing; so they don't feel guilty.

My point here is there is a huge difference between these two statements; justification for their overt actions toward their marriage and spouse, and attempted reduction of guilt within themselves are two different aspects.

One other thing you might consider; they are telling the truth about their feelings as THEY see it considering that perception is everything during the crisis, their state of minds, and what they are facing; there are times during the crisis they have NO feelings for their spouse at all in any way, shape or form.  This is due to the emotional changes within them.

Right or wrong everyone has a right to how they feel, and the MLC'er is NO different than anyone else.

It is really easy to advise distance, detaching, and leaving them to twist in the wind until they figure themselves out; but this is NOT an easy process to accomplish, either, as it's easier said than done.

But the only way to save yourself and your sanity is to do these three things so you can survive and thrive.

One last thing knowing what they are doing, and trying to understand what they are doing; is NOT going to make this process go any faster; it can serve to suck you in so deep at a later time because you can't let go that you'll have more and more trouble extracting yourself from the quagmire of your own making...simply because the more know you know, the more you want to know; and the less it helps you to focus on YOU.

There was a time when I could NOT get any more answers for awhile; I was focused TOO heavily on him; never mind the fact I had enough to go on for awhile and really needed to keep walking my journey.

It was only when I let go in ALL ways that I started learning once again in various other aspects.

I have answered question after question after question on various aspects of MLC over time; and for each question I have answered another one comes...and that's OK; but when you allow your need or want for understanding to interfere with your journey; you are hurting, not helping yourself.

There is NO sense to be made of a process that NO sense CAN be made of.

I'm an analytical personality as a general rule; I like to take things apart and see how they work; and there was one a time when I looked anywhere and everything trying to figure this out.

I consider myself fortunate that I was able to get as much as I did in the way of answers/understanding; but even my own understanding didn't receive all and everything, and there is an "end" to my own knowledge, wisdom and understanding, just as surely as there is an ending to the crisis; whether by resolution or death of the MLC spouse.

With that said, I still don't have every answer there is; I don't believe anyone will ever attain it all.

I hope this helps.




 

[Faith]

HB, thank you again for your insight, care and encouragment.  You have no idea how often over the past 2.5 years I've visualized myself being held in God's hand.  It always brings comfort - thank you for reminding me.

My H had our girls on Christmas Eve and spent much of the day sending me nasty texts.  I finally told him "you keep telling me you have 'moved on', maybe it's time you actually do", meaning I feel that a person who has "moved on" wouldn't keep spending his time trying to instigate fights with his stbx.  What started his current rage is this....and I'd love feedback from anyone as to whether or not I handled this correctly.

H was to pick the kids up to spend the night with him and his family and celebrate Christmas Eve.  Late the night before he was coming, he informed my D that he would be coming hours before our agreed upon time.  Both girls had plans for the day and weren't happy with the change - neither was I.  He refused to budge, even after I got involved, and said he would be there in the AM to pick them up.  I finally told H that if he insisted on coming hours early to pick them up, he could wait in the car until they were ready to go.  When he came the next day, my younger daughter answered the door and let him in.  I came and told him I'd like him to wait in the car as I had stated earlier.  He became very beligerent and kept repeating that he would wait for HIS KIDS "right here".  He stood there for 30 minutes against my wishes (remember he is the "amicable" one).  After they left, I consulted with my lawyer who confirmed that since I have sole temporary use of our home, H does NOT have the right to enter and we can seek a harassment/restraining order if it happens again.

As my lawyer instructed, I sent H an email stating that he cannot enter our home without permission and if it happens again we will have to call law enforcement and get a restraining order.  This is what set off his texting rampage.  He again told me that he was trying to be "amicable" and I wanted to subject our kids to watching their dad hauled off to jail.  He told me how horrible I was to expect him to wait in the car.  He twice told me he would "pray for me" because I am so filled with hate and "anguish", he "hoped I could enjoy Christmas in spite of my bitterness", etc.  I responded that HE chose divorce and court, so he will have to obey the court order.  He does tell me ad nauseum that he has "moved on", so I finally told him that finding new girlfriends does not equal moving on and that his rage shows he is miserable.  I know that's more than I probably should have said, but he has left me alone for 3 days now so maybe it at least accomplished that.

Do you all think I am being difficult by not wanting him to come in the house when he picks up the kids?  Sometimes he uses the bathroom, or looks through papers on the counter - it just feels wrong at this point.  Would it be better for the kids if I suck it up and don't make a big deal about it, or should I set clear boundaries now that I have a court order to back me up?  My first priority is doing what's best for my teenage girls.

[Stillpraying]

Faith,
I don't know what is the 'right' answer but it sounds exactly how my H would behave.  I also believe in bounderies but it does get confusing sometimes when we want to do what is best for the kids.  However, respecting ourselves is also important for the kids to see.
Hugs,
SP

[devoted]

Hi I think amicable is my H favorite word..........

Lets be amicable about this......what exactly........ the divorce.......contact with the kids.......H not giving me enough money to live on because he can't afford it[hilarious]........H taking our family home from us.......just a few examples.

So you walk out on a 23 year M, 5 beautiful kids without even trying to make it work and no valid truthful reason or explanation and you want amicable.

Amicable for my H is about what he wants when he wants it.......changing things to fit in with his life and expecting me and kids to just go along with it everything is his way or no way.Like tonight  when H wants to change his contact day with kids as his job which is his life now is more important than his kids he does not get his own way so he spews at me.

Am not going to keep changing plans to suit him for a start it unsettles the kids and I'm entitled to a life as well.

Will probably tell his solicitor I am stopping him seeing them

Oh well can't keep accomadating H every need when he does not know the meaning of the word amicable xxxxxxx