[limitless]

wkramer,

I haven't read this entire thread....just bits and pieces - so I may have missed some things and may be off base.....

That said.

I think there is a reason that you are coming to this board and posting here.  It doesn't appear that you wish to incite or cause trouble.  Although an admitted adulterer coming to a site where the majority of the members have been cheated on is a pretty brazen act......

It is difficult - somewhat impossible - to detect someone's tone through the written word.  So, if I am sounding annoyed or angry or emotional in any way - it is not so.  Just curious.  Not of what you write, your story, your reasons, or any of that.  When your blog was posted.....I didn't read it...just the comments about it. 

I find it interesting that you are posting here and sharing your story - to those who would judge you - most of them very harshly.  Why would you do that?  That question isn't for me....it is for you.  And I don't need to know the answer.  But, maybe you do.

It is unlikely that you will be able to convince anyone on this site that you are happy.  Even if you are.  In this place, your ends would never justify (or excuse) your means.  And, I think that you know that.

So, ask yourself why you are here.  This is not saying that you have overstayed your welcome or that I am saying that I wish you would leave.  You can stay or go.....really doesn't matter.  As with any thread, I can choose to read it or not read it. 

But ask yourself why am I posting here?  If you are truly okay with what you have done and you are happy - why come here and try to convince those who would be your harshest critics?

Just some food for thought.

limitless

[wkramer]

It is unlikely that you will be able to convince anyone on this site that you are happy.  Even if you are.

I find that strange. I thought from what I'd read on this thread that most posters thought their partners had left selfishly in the pursuit of happiness. Is the claim that they leave for these reasons but don't find happiness?

Anyway I am happy but whether people believe that or not is not going to make any difference to my life is it?

In this place, your ends would never justify (or excuse) your means.  And, I think that you know that.

Sure - I know that.

So, ask yourself why you are here...

But ask yourself why am I posting here?  If you are truly okay with what you have done and you are happy - why come here and try to convince those who would be your harshest critics?

Well I came here after the details of my blog were posted here and I figured that rather than have a load of people speak on my behalf I'd rather speak for myself.

It wasn't ever my intention to try and convince people. I knew from my very first post that people here were likely to be amongst my harshest critics. As I said previously some of them seemed to have questions and having introduced myself here I felt like I ought to answer them.

[limitless]

I find that strange. I thought from what I'd read on this thread that most posters thought their partners had left selfishly in the pursuit of happiness. Is the claim that they leave for these reasons but don't find happiness?

Anyway I am happy but whether people believe that or not is not going to make any difference to my life is it?

I would think that most people here think (or want to think) that their spouses who leave for the selfish pursuit of happiness do not find the happiness they are searching for.

If the spouse does find the happiness they are searching for and can forgive themselves for pursuing it in such a selfish way....then good for that person - I guess.  I don't know.  There is something about having a conscience and how that will really hit you - when you least expect it....

My Aunt's 2nd husband was married and a father of 6 kids, when she got involved with him.  His youngest was less than 1.  He left his wife...married my Aunt.  They had 2 kids together.  They stayed together for a long time...even though they had much strife with their "blended family" - he had 6, she had 2 and then they had 2 together.  After many years - they divorced.....Were they happy?  I don't know...I guess so.  They loved each other.  The fall out for all the children was really sad.....most of them are struggling in their relationships.  I don't know if his 1st wife ever remarried.  She ended up raising 6 kids - on her own.......

I guess as long as my Aunt and her 2nd husband were happy......that is all that mattered to them?

Who knows?

Thanks for the response. 

limitless

[forthetrees]

Selfish or misguided, the leaving spouse is seeking happiness and seeks it externally instead of looking inside. Since the leaving spouse takes him/herself wherever he/she goes, the unhappiness follows like a shadow UNTIL he/she allows the bright light of reflection to enter and see that happiness is not the responsibility of another human being- rather it is and always has been within grasp of the MLCer, he/she just chose not to realize or take ownership over it.

I think that all the folks on this site would agree that no spouse is beholden to remain in a loveless marriage. Our pain comes from being blind sided, betrayed, left without a care on the leavers´part and being lied to repeatedly. There seems to be no respect for the time and love invested in the marriage and the leaver seems to dehumanize the left spouse in order to justify the cruel actions that inevitably unfold. As most of us sooner or later acknowledge, we´d rather be us than deal with the reckoning that the leaver sooner or later must face. I see us as finding a way to heal and reconcile or start a new life. I really cannot see how the leaver ever finds a deep peace with his/her actions that were so unnecessary and cruel. Maybe you are here to see that the LBS in the end is okay and that assuages your guilt, I don´t know. I do not think that the onus is on the LBS to grant peace to the leaver. Actions have consequences. Peace of mind is priceless.

[kikki]

Hi wkramer
Thanks for your patience and for your answers.
Am interested in why you set your blog up, and why you have continued it for so long? 
What does Anna make of it?  Do your ex wife and daughters know about your blog?  Just curious - thanks.

[Rollercoasterider]

(In truth I never really had to lie. My ex-wife never asked any questions that required lies)

I'm not really qualified to argue philosophy or semantics.
I never really had to lie. But what I did do was deceive her.
Perhaps this is splitting hairs too thinly?

Ya think?
You lied. Not telling your wife you were cheating on her was a life of omission.

Even if it was a MLC does that make the feelings any less real? Does it mean that the love I feel for my wife is somehow different to other people's love?

Let me first say that I have not read your blog and am not interested in reading it, not because it would sicken me (which it might), but because I am busy and have other things to occupy my time. So I don’t know if you are or were MLC and I don’t care.
But if it was MLC, then yes, it makes the feelings less real. Considering how we understand/define MLC here, the feelings for the alienator are in-fatuation. They are feelings and emotions created by hormones and lack depth and the odds of sustainability within the context of the turmoil of MLC combined with infidelity are low. Nothing wrong with in-fatuation; it is one of the ways of getting to in-love, but it has a better chance of getting their when the context is not infidelity (with MLC or without).
We understand MLC not as disease, but dis-ease which is close. MLCers are responsible for their actions—it is not legal insanity. And yet there is a lot of confusion and transformation during the crisis; change in the transition is at a higher rate than during non transition periods of life, when the transition is at crisis levels there is a lot of instability.

You state that you don't believe in GOD yet you and your friend kept your sexual affair a secret. Adam and Eve hid themselves out of shame and so did you because you knew what you were doing was wrong. [RCR Note: sorry, I included ther Adam and Eve portion of the reference only because the final portion needed the fuill quote for understanding]

Correct

According to Wikipedia (hardly the most authoritative of sources but nonetheless) "A sin is an act that violates a known moral rule in a religion"
I don't agree that our relationship was ever sinful (because if you don't have a religion then how can you sin?). It was wrong but that's not exactly the same thing.
There's probably not much point in pursuing this much further. It might be more suited to a philosophy discussion board!

Well, it was this that I found interesting and what prompted me to post. Don’t worry, I’m not looking for a discussion, but your response got me thinking. Yes, it is a philosophy discussion—which is not out of place on the board. But what I see is more semantics; you are splitting hairs again.
Sin has a variety of definitions, usages or connotations. One of the main definitions is turning away from God. Now clearly that doesn’t apply to you! But you said you know or believe what you did was wrong and yet you do not believe it was sinning. To me that is a contradiction. But then I can take the religious context out of the word sin. You can do that too and just replace it with the word wrong. Basically what I’m saying is, you (I think) know what someone means when they say you were or are sinning and it doesn’t need to be dismissed because the word sin has religious connotations.

Me, I actually try to avoid using the words right and wrong. It’s hard and so I think I must fail a lot, but I make the effort. Why? Because they are subjective and they are judgments. So is sin. So here is a more generalized definition or idea of sin.
An act that violates your own values, principles, moral or ethical code.
Sorry, it’s a bit convoluted with all those words, but I wanted to include them all. Example: I am Christian—Lutheran. I do not believe homosexuality is a sin. I’m ELCA and we recently voted to accept gay clergy in committed relationships. But other Lutheran Synods are against that and believe homosexuality is a sin. I am not choosing to believe it’s not a sin because my church gave me that permission. If the organization said it was a sin; I’d disagree—and still be Lutheran. According to some Christians I don’t even have the right to call myself a Christian! And yet I do and I will continue to do so; I don’t have to fit their definition.

There are a few comments from people that are pretty common betrayed spouse comments, so I don’t think I need to repost them or your answers, but maybe just explain a bit.

The comments about happiness…do you feel it justifies hurting people, and the comments about you seeming to be selfish and interested in your happiness at the expense of others…

Those are typical comments from betrayed spouses because those are the excuses we hear. We hear them from our spouses, we hear them from friends who are trying to convince up to accept that it’s over and our spouse is in-love with someone new, we hear them when we go around the Internet and read what people say about reasons for divorce and/or cheating. Hey, Jefferson wrote that the pursuit of happiness is right. Of course I will point out that he did not say the attainment is a right and just like you do not have the right to yell fire in a crowded theatre (unless there’s a fire or some other emergency, DUH) we will restrict someone’s right to their happiness if it removes the happiness of others…I’m think of extreme situations like Jeffrey Dahmer. Sorry, I don’t care if what he was doing made him happy. DUH

But at Bomb Drop or around that time we are often told by our cheating and leaving spouses that we are selfish for not wanting them to leave and for even wanting them to end their affair because if we love them we should want them to do what makes them happy.

Personally I am not fond of the word happy. I prefer to use the word joy and I feel it is a choice—whereas happy comes from hap which is like luck—happenstance.

People aren’t meaning to be sarcastic, or smart alecky or give cheap shots (okay, some might be), but some are asking those questions with a genuine desire for an answer from someone who they feel might be able to provide some insight into the other side—not necessarily MLC, but the perspective of the person choosing to have an affair. Sometimes the nature of the questions they want answered will simply feel like cheap shots.

Regarding your answers about why you stayed married instead of divorcing. I get it. I actually think those were some of the best answers I’ve read given your international situation. I commend you for doing that—though I wish there had been no infidelity and (of course) I wish you could have healed your marriage.

I’m also not one who will disbelieve your present happiness or think it’s false. I don’t think I have an opinion either way to be perfectly honest. Maybe things will continue to blossom in your new marriage and maybe they won’t, but I do hope they continue to blossom and a big part of me hates admitting that—as a marriage advocate who hates divorce and all.
My Dad and step-mother celebrated their 25th wedding anniversary this past Valentine’s Day. They aren’t soul mates and back when they were dating it did not seem like some sort of infatuation and hormonal pull. I think they love each other and they are comfortable and they are friends, but as I said I don’t sense a soul-mate sort of connection—or whatever sort of word that get my meaning across.
My Dad was the other man and my step-mother had been married for 20 years. Her first husband is a great guy and they are all friends. He was great at the time—wanted to meet my Dad, my brother and me and…well, did I say he’s a great guy? My Dad thinks he may have had some side-action as well and he did not seem to feel like a betrayed spouse, but then maybe he just put up a good front.
But I love my Dad, so I’m not going to go around hating alienators. I love my step-mother, I am not going to hate adulterers who leave for the alienator either.

[wkramer]

I guess as long as my Aunt and her 2nd husband were happy......that is all that mattered to them?

I doubt if most people are quite as narcissistic as that. Although, to be honest, even as I was writing the words I was anticipating the disagreement of everybody on this board.

[wkramer]

Hi wkramer
Thanks for your patience and for your answers.
Am interested in why you set your blog up, and why you have continued it for so long? 
What does Anna make of it?  Do your ex wife and daughters know about your blog?  Just curious - thanks.

My blog is a small extract of my diaries that stretch back twenty-five or more years. I don't know where I got the habit of keeping a diary from.

Anna read the diaries when she was pregnant. It made her laugh and cry - sometimes both at the same time.

Neither my ex-wife or my daughters have read my blog.

[Wed2Him?Whatever.]

I'm not entirely certain why you bothered with marriage, being atheistic...

So the only reasons to get married are religious reasons? Should atheists not be allowed to get married?

Of course atheists should be allowed to marry; I simply wondered why you wouldn't reject it as a necessary step to making a brand new pledge.

Oh and I apologize for the hostility.  My dad was a cheat.  It affects us; really really does.

[wkramer]

Ya think?
You lied. Not telling your wife you were cheating on her was a life of omission.

Okay I suppose that's true. A lie of omission is still a lie.

But if it was MLC, then yes, it makes the feelings less real.

Well I will agree to bow to the superior knowledge of you and other people on this site. Since I don't believe I ever had a MLC it isn't relevant to my own circumstances.

But then I can take the religious context out of the word sin. You can do that too and just replace it with the word wrong. Basically what I’m saying is, you (I think) know what someone means when they say you were or are sinning and it doesn’t need to be dismissed because the word sin has religious connotations.

I can't agree with this because the word DOES have religious connotations. Wrong, deceitful, lying, etc are all similar words but dispense with the religion.

So here is a more generalized definition or idea of sin.
An act that violates your own values, principles, moral or ethical code.

I think this is a great definition. I really do. But unfortunately I don't write the dictionary (and I assume neither do you?)

The comments about happiness…do you feel it justifies hurting people, and the comments about you seeming to be selfish and interested in your happiness at the expense of others…

I hope I've made clear that I have conflicted views about this. In general the answer to your question is that no I don't believe it justifies hurting other people. In reality mine and Anna's current happiness was attained by doing exactly that.

But at Bomb Drop or around that time we are often told by our cheating and leaving spouses that we are selfish for not wanting them to leave and for even wanting them to end their affair because if we love them we should want them to do what makes them happy.

So the spouse leaving thinks that the left behind spouse is being selfish? I've never even heard of circumstances like this. I can see how this is considered crazy.

People aren’t meaning to be sarcastic, or smart alecky or give cheap shots (okay, some might be),

Yeah some are.

...but some are asking those questions with a genuine desire for an answer from someone who they feel might be able to provide some insight into the other side—not necessarily MLC, but the perspective of the person choosing to have an affair. Sometimes the nature of the questions they want answered will simply feel like cheap shots.

I'll keep that in mind before answering any other posts. Thanks.

...and (of course) I wish you could have healed your marriage.

I really don't think I understand this wish. It was over in all but name. Both of us knew that.