[stayed]

I can pretty much guarantee that you will be the last person to hear or know about his remorse.  I eventually discovered that what they really can't face is that PERSON!  That person, that does those sort of things.  When my h finally faced his remorse, he sobbed most of the night... and I mean sobbed.  Not the "I feel so badly for me", it was the sobbing of somebody who couldn't believe he could ever be like that, and he SIMPLY did not know how ANYBODY could ever forgive him... let alone himself. 

For almost 2 years prior to that day, he remained arrogant, defiant, cocky, resentful (he desperately wanted me to give him a pass), angry at me for not letting him away with it.  It was pretty horrific.

Don't hold your breath my dear, but I would be very surprised if some day, you do not get a SINCERE apology.  I'm not sure they can go easily to their maker without at least speaking of their regret.  Little good that might do you though, other then it is always wonderful to get a sincere apology.

hugs Stayed

[CallanG]

I can pretty much guarantee that you will be the last person to hear or know about his remorse.  I eventually discovered that what they really can't face is that PERSON!  That person, that does those sort of things.  When my h finally faced his remorse, he sobbed most of the night... and I mean sobbed.  Not the "I feel so badly for me", it was the sobbing of somebody who couldn't believe he could ever be like that, and he SIMPLY did not know how ANYBODY could ever forgive him... let alone himself. 

For almost 2 years prior to that day, he remained arrogant, defiant, cocky, resentful (he desperately wanted me to give him a pass), angry at me for not letting him away with it.  It was pretty horrific.

Don't hold your breath my dear, but I would be very surprised if some day, you do not get a SINCERE apology.  I'm not sure they can go easily to their maker without at least speaking of their regret.  Little good that might do you though, other then it is always wonderful to get a sincere apology.

hugs Stayed

Thanks Stayed , I will hold on to your words when I am feeling low .

[Duthla]

Hello all,
I read this a few months ago and found myself nodding my head at the many descriptions of "apologies" I have heard over the years from my H. It also reminded me of what to watch out for in the future - are his words coming from a place of guilt or true remorse?
So far, all I heat is guilt-driven.
How many of you have heard your MLCers in this?


http://www.luke173ministries.org/466803

[Bewildered]

An article I found interestung ....

Why is it so terrifying to apologize?

A strong leader knows the power of an apology.  When a leader recognizes that something of value has been broken or lost, s/he has the power to mend it through the delivery of a good apology.
The decision to give an apology is rooted in the ability to separate behavior from the person that you are.  It takes a strong sense of self to step back and recognize when something happened that shouldn’t have, even when you played a part in it.
Sometimes an apology requires you to allow a part of your ego to die.  The reward is that once you let it die, you are stronger, with more integrity and a greater ability as a leader.
“If I hurt you, I’m sorry” doesn’t cut it.
A good apology has 4 features:
1. Admit what you did wrong.
This is about behavior not the person that you are. A statement like ‘When I — I failed to recognize your true value” or “When I — I jeopardized what was really important here which is—— and I regret that.”  It is an acknowledgement of what happened that shouldn’t have as opposed to an opportunity to highlight all that you did right or what other people did wrong that was even worse than what you did (defensiveness).  It requires a clear recognition of what happened that shouldn’t have.  ”If I hurt you, I’m sorry” doesn’t cut it.
2. Repair the damage.
What action can be taken to bring the situation back to wholeness?  Pay for the broken item, explain the situation to people who were affected, genuinely acknowledge what damage was done and take action to remedy it so it does not linger into the future.
3. Give reasonable assurance that it will not happen again.
Create new systems for safety checks, commit to a new course of action, or identify consequences that will be imposed to deter recurrence of the incident.
4. Ask what you can do to make it better.
Beyond the physical damage there is damage to the trust between the parties.  Commit to hearing their concerns, or taking actions that will repair the feelings of the injured party.  There is a responsibility on the part of the injured party to not extract such a heavy toll more damage is done and a cycle of victimization develops.
A crisis is the crucible in which a man, or a leader is measured and an apology is very powerful.  During this moment integrity, and values become evident.  It is an opportunity to rise to your better self, as James Burke did during the tragic Tylenol case in 1982 where the tampered seal of several bottles resulted in cyanide poisoning of seven people in the Chicago area.  As CEO, Burke immediately established a task force to take on two clear missions: 1. protect our clients, in keeping with the corporate mission statement, and 2. save the brand.
They immediately warned people using all available media (admit what is wrong), they stopped all production of Tylenol locally and then recalled over $100,000,000 worth of product nationally until they were clear on how people were being killed (give reasonable assurance it won’t happen again) and designed a tamper-proof bottle within two months.  Burke gave non-stop press conferences to show he was in charge and make himself available (ask what you can do to make it better).  Even though Tylenol was not found to be negligent in any way, they offered counseling to the grieving families and compensation (repair the damage).
In this crisis Burke showed the integrity and the root values of Tylenol, namely its customers’ safety over making money.  Burke took the bullet for what was happening to protect others and heal the relationship.  He did not focus his effort on making sure Tylenol was not seen to be at fault.
I’ve used this apology format in numerous situations from squabbles between kids, my relationships, and professional intervention to restore relationships after cyber bullying incidents.  It is really effective.  The key is to ensure that the apology is recognized as coming from a position of strength of character, an embodiment of your inner Warrior King.

[Bewildered]

An article I found interestung ....

Why is it so terrifying to apologize?

A strong leader knows the power of an apology.  When a leader recognizes that something of value has been broken or lost, s/he has the power to mend it through the delivery of a good apology.
The decision to give an apology is rooted in the ability to separate behavior from the person that you are.  It takes a strong sense of self to step back and recognize when something happened that shouldn’t have, even when you played a part in it.
Sometimes an apology requires you to allow a part of your ego to die.  The reward is that once you let it die, you are stronger, with more integrity and a greater ability as a leader.
“If I hurt you, I’m sorry” doesn’t cut it.
A good apology has 4 features:
1. Admit what you did wrong.
This is about behavior not the person that you are. A statement like ‘When I — I failed to recognize your true value” or “When I — I jeopardized what was really important here which is—— and I regret that.”  It is an acknowledgement of what happened that shouldn’t have as opposed to an opportunity to highlight all that you did right or what other people did wrong that was even worse than what you did (defensiveness).  It requires a clear recognition of what happened that shouldn’t have.  ”If I hurt you, I’m sorry” doesn’t cut it.
2. Repair the damage.
What action can be taken to bring the situation back to wholeness?  Pay for the broken item, explain the situation to people who were affected, genuinely acknowledge what damage was done and take action to remedy it so it does not linger into the future.
3. Give reasonable assurance that it will not happen again.
Create new systems for safety checks, commit to a new course of action, or identify consequences that will be imposed to deter recurrence of the incident.
4. Ask what you can do to make it better.
Beyond the physical damage there is damage to the trust between the parties.  Commit to hearing their concerns, or taking actions that will repair the feelings of the injured party.  There is a responsibility on the part of the injured party to not extract such a heavy toll more damage is done and a cycle of victimization develops.
A crisis is the crucible in which a man, or a leader is measured and an apology is very powerful.  During this moment integrity, and values become evident.  It is an opportunity to rise to your better self, as James Burke did during the tragic Tylenol case in 1982 where the tampered seal of several bottles resulted in cyanide poisoning of seven people in the Chicago area.  As CEO, Burke immediately established a task force to take on two clear missions: 1. protect our clients, in keeping with the corporate mission statement, and 2. save the brand.
They immediately warned people using all available media (admit what is wrong), they stopped all production of Tylenol locally and then recalled over $100,000,000 worth of product nationally until they were clear on how people were being killed (give reasonable assurance it won’t happen again) and designed a tamper-proof bottle within two months.  Burke gave non-stop press conferences to show he was in charge and make himself available (ask what you can do to make it better).  Even though Tylenol was not found to be negligent in any way, they offered counseling to the grieving families and compensation (repair the damage).
In this crisis Burke showed the integrity and the root values of Tylenol, namely its customers’ safety over making money.  Burke took the bullet for what was happening to protect others and heal the relationship.  He did not focus his effort on making sure Tylenol was not seen to be at fault.
I’ve used this apology format in numerous situations from squabbles between kids, my relationships, and professional intervention to restore relationships after cyber bullying incidents.  It is really effective.  The key is to ensure that the apology is recognized as coming from a position of strength of character, an embodiment of your inner Warrior King.

[BennHurr]

Interesting article - Funny thing is I received a text today from H telling me he was an idiot and he is getting tired of putting me through hell and he loves me.  Only time will tell if that is remorse or guilt.  He also asked for forgiveness (something he hasn't done until today).  I don't know I am very leery about clinging boomerang activity though.  It is something to look at though and use to evaluate somethings.

all of us with vanishers for partners would dream of having a clinging boomerang ;-)
can i give some advice?
all of the things you H has just done are wonderful. You can accept them all and tell him you appreciate all of them without having to dive back into the relationship. Guilt is good because its the beginning of remorse. He has taken a giant leap forward.
cheers

[FindingJoJo]

Interesting article - Funny thing is I received a text today from H telling me he was an idiot and he is getting tired of putting me through hell and he loves me.  Only time will tell if that is remorse or guilt.  He also asked for forgiveness (something he hasn't done until today).  I don't know I am very leery about clinging boomerang activity though.  It is something to look at though and use to evaluate somethings.

all of us with vanishers for partners would dream of having a clinging boomerang ;-)
can i give some advice?
all of the things you H has just done are wonderful. You can accept them all and tell him you appreciate all of them without having to dive back into the relationship. Guilt is good because its the beginning of remorse. He has taken a giant leap forward.
cheers

Yeah and it goes on and on and on.  He is moving forward and now he told me that none of this is my fault.  He Is more like a vanisher at the moment and I grow more when he is out and away to be honest.  The issue is that he recognizes what he has done, he now admits that he is the crazy guy and it isn't my fault.  He does nothing that I can see to move forward though, who knows maybe it is behind the scenes.  I think that true remorse will come though when he no longer does the things he says he is sorry for.

[Trustandlove]

Very good article on apologies -- somewhere here there was also a post on meaningful vs meaningless apologies.

Gary Chapman, the author of 5 love languages that we often refer to here, has also written a "5 languages of apology" book; he uses the four components of a good apology that are in the article Bewildered posted, and adds a firth -- requesting forgiveness. 

His angle is of course a bit different, and he's made it fit his "five" format, but the overall idea is the same.  He adds to it that what constitutes an apology to one person is different to another (love language format, again), but also says that "big" things need ALL the langua

His five are:  Expressing regret ("I am sorry"), accepting responsibility ("I was wrong"), making restitution ("what can I do to make it right?"), genuinely repenting ("it won't happen again") and requesting forgiveness ("will you please forgive me?"). 

Of course, forgiveness is in the gift of the other person, and a meaningful apology isn't conditional on the other party forgiving. 



And as to the guilt vs remorse thing, well, my H has expressed guilt many, many times, and in between some meaningless apologies once even did say he was sorry for having treated me so badly, but he's nowhere near any remorse, at least not that I can see. 

[BennHurr]

Interesting article - Funny thing is I received a text today from H telling me he was an idiot and he is getting tired of putting me through hell and he loves me.  Only time will tell if that is remorse or guilt.  He also asked for forgiveness (something he hasn't done until today).  I don't know I am very leery about clinging boomerang activity though.  It is something to look at though and use to evaluate somethings.

all of us with vanishers for partners would dream of having a clinging boomerang ;-)
can i give some advice?
all of the things you H has just done are wonderful. You can accept them all and tell him you appreciate all of them without having to dive back into the relationship. Guilt is good because its the beginning of remorse. He has taken a giant leap forward.
cheers

Yeah and it goes on and on and on.  He is moving forward and now he told me that none of this is my fault.  He Is more like a vanisher at the moment and I grow more when he is out and away to be honest.  The issue is that he recognizes what he has done, he now admits that he is the crazy guy and it isn't my fault.  He does nothing that I can see to move forward though, who knows maybe it is behind the scenes.  I think that true remorse will come though when he no longer does the things he says he is sorry for.

if we look at the unconditionals we wont be expecting him to express remorse before we forgive. forgiving is different to reconciling but i have found acknowledging our responsibility, whatever that maybe be, can help in that reconciliation process.
in other words you can be right or reconciled which ever you prefer.
i know if i wait for my W to apologize and show remorse before forgiving her then it will never happen. so forgiveness it is.
cheers

[FindingJoJo]

I agree BH- but one thing we can't do is ask them to forgive us over and over.  I fully understand my part have acknowledged it to him.  I have forgiven him on many levels and found great release for doing it.  I think that is partly why he now recognizes and wants me to know this isn't my fault.  He thought I blamed myself for it all.  I let him know I don't and I know my part in the marriage but have nothing to do with his crisis.  He has to go through it to be whole as I have to do my journey.