[Ready2Transform]

I think it's a fantastic opportunity to learn more about the thought process that goes on behind the PA's most of us are dealing with, and I thank you UP for sharing your story, even if it is not my own.  I know you're struggling with your own crisis too (which IS my story).  Having had an EA years ago, I know the remorse/guilt article Stayed posted has definitely been heavy on my own mind and how I could have done things differently, and will, if and when the time is right. 

The main thing is that we and our spouses are all human beings and on some level if we're not desiring to reconcile our marriages, we all at least share in common the desire reconcile this thing that has happened to us because of the choices they've made.  It's all just learning.

[StillStanding]

I think it's a fantastic opportunity to learn more about the thought process that goes on behind the PA's most of us are dealing with, and I thank you UP for sharing your story, even if it is not my own.  I know you're struggling with your own crisis too (which IS my story).  Having had an EA years ago, I know the remorse/guilt article Stayed posted has definitely been heavy on my own mind and how I could have done things differently, and will, if and when the time is right. 

The main thing is that we and our spouses are all human beings and on some level if we're not desiring to reconcile our marriages, we all at least share in common the desire reconcile this thing that has happened to us because of the choices they've made.  It's all just learning.

I'm not saying that UP should refrain from telling her story, only that she doesn't have to feel obligated to respond to people, especially those who may be lashing out at her because of what their own spouses have done. In the stories I was thinking of, the women who confessed to having an affair in their past were called selfish or irresponsible, and were basically told that they deserve no sympathy because of what they had done to their husbands or ex-husbands. That's not helpful to anybody.

I don't decide who "deserves" to have their marriages saved based on their life story or the choices they made. In fact, for a time, I didn't even read peoples' introductory posts on here. If I wanted to know something about their relationship or circumstances, I asked for clarification; this kept me from being distracted by irrelevant bits in the person's story.

[underpressure]

Thank-you everyone for the "emotional rescuing" i was seeking, including Doc, (whom my 5 year old child is fond of). I realize of course that the terminology is far too loaded for casual usage or applicable usage in this case (emotional rescuing). When we say "Help me" we are not necessarily saying that we need someone to sacrifice everything to help us, selfishly. Sometimes God can help us and no one else has to. Still, a cry for Help is a need of rescuing. I need rescuing. I have loved this man for 13 years. I still love him. I don't know how to help him. I can't fix him. I need to detach. First principal of Al Anon. He is abusive, narcissistic, controling and emotionally unavailable, and I still love him. IT IS OBVIOUS to me that as we both reach intense levels of identity crisis that I must learn to be a ninja at detachment and right now I am a blundering novice.

I did not seek to be unfaithful, but recognize that talking about my marriage with ANYONE, stranger, friend, male, female, is considered by some to be a supreme infidelity. That would make all members here, secretly posting their intimate scenarios to be unfaithful to their spouses. Well, I don't exactly buy that. But the point is once we enter into the unstated contract of discussing our common struggles here we also enter into a certain state of pre-forgiveness. "I forgive you for the crime you are about to commit against your marriage by telling me everything without consulting your spouse". I expect that part of that forgiveness should involve a suspension of judgement for my SAME error of revealing everything wrong with my marriage to two male friends and two female friends without telling my husband and thus creating a sort of emotional affair with in this case at least 4 people, Sheesh. My two female friends told me to leave him based on his treatment of me. I decided I needed to consult my male friends. One quickly broke down and tried to involve me in an EA which I refused, the other took our friendship to new levels, told me he loved me, but made no claim on me in any other way. This relationship probably made my H take notice and H asked me to stop talking with him. It was inapropriate even if unintentional and distant. He was right and I immediately stopped. But our problems persisted.  This was several years ago...

So now I am not turning to any close friend for advice about my husband, except that I am talking at length with my two sisters in law. They are not my husband's sisters, but they are the wives of my husband's brothers. They are experiencing similar abuses within their marriages and one of them in particular is becoming demonstrably good at detaching with love. She may save her marriage because of it. This is my aim.

I think there is a lot of personality disorder involved in my marriage, but I am not going to start accepting blame for everything wrong with my marraige AGAIN, and certainly not for everything wrong with someone else's marriage! I don't understand my husband. I think on some days his behavior fits the MLC script to a T ,and then on other days I think...wait? what? OF COURSE i feel remorse for what I have done. I continue to apologize. At first I still felt anger and guilt and not remorse. I was defensive. I was STILL ANGRY. My switching this final EA to a PA was done out of anger. It was an "end game". I was destructive and out of control. I was also scared, hurting and lost. H thinks his current MLC was caused by mine. I think mine started well after his did. I am not sure that it matters. We are both having severe pain.

He loves me. He has been making love with me since BD and continued to make love with me after he started seeing this other woman, whom he TOLD me about in advance. Every time I cry to him about it he says: "But it was OK for YOU TO DO IT" and so everyone could easily think this is simly a revenge affair. He is certainly getting his revenge. I am in serious pain that I will never ever ever be able to forget. If that is what I did to him, I shudder. I never thought what I did at the time would hurt him that much since he seemed to not really care about me anymore...I was wrong. And Doc is helping me to see that. Thanks to Doc I texted with H while at Legoland and S5 was in the wading pool. I just cried and texted. He texted too. He said "Spilt Milk".

He continues to treat me lovingly. Although it is all very confusing. The night he left me to move in with his mother he said through tears "I have treated you so badly for so long, I will never do that again."

There is more to this than a simple case of a Borderline Personality Disorder Girl recking havoc on a poor fool who loves her. In fact, it's got nothing to do with that. That's just not the case. But even if there is disorder and neurosis (which there certainly is) we are talking about 13 years, a child, a stepchild who cares deeply for her brother, and extended family that is hurting deeply too. I think everyone wants to fix this. Learning how to let him go while he still talks with me everyday, wants dates, wants sex, wants love from me, that's what I need. He IS a clinging boomerang, he IS in crisis. He is not making sense, but he is loveable, I love him. I want to help him by letting go. I don't know how to do it. I keep messing this up.

[Rebel Yell]

You know, I didn't see Doc being mean or anything like that. In fact he said the same questions I was thinking. I'm glad you are brave enough to be honest, it must be tough.
IMO never an excuse to cheat, but it's water under the bridge now and given another chance, I doubt you would have taken that road. It just causes too much pain for everyone including the kids. Now what he is doing is wrong and you are allowing cake eating. No easy way through this.

[underpressure]

Not that i want to drag myself thru this but for everyone's sake, MLC happens to people who have previously unresolved issues, whereas MLT is the normal mode for everyone else. I started a thread elsewhere about BPD and the OW and there was at least one reply that evoked the susceptibility of people closely exposed to others with Borderline psychosis who begin to perceive themselves as having the same symptoms.

In tears i asked my SIL if she thought i had BPD. She replied emphatically no. I asked my H if he thought i had it just after Doc posted his diagnosis. He said there are a lot jerks online.

My H had been married to a woman with BPD for less than a year before i met him. He is a defense atty in insurance and deals with medical evidence daily. Hecis extremely well read. He has known me gor 13 years. He is wrong about many things but it is odd for him to overlook BPD if that is indeed my problem.

Meanwhile i still find myself in tears when i discuss this stuff.

Im going on a zen retreat for women with my
Other SIL. Im goung back to al anon this week and...i will have someone other thsn my husbsnd puck me up at the airport. But i love him so much it is physicslly painful daily to go thru this. I want to focus on mysrlf...jee that sounds great...but i have this child here without his father.

[underpressure]

Frantic efforts to avoid real or imagined abandonment. Note: Do not include suicidal or self-mutilating behavior covered in (5).
A pattern of unstable and intense interpersonal relationships characterized by alternating between extremes of idealization and devaluation. This is called "splitting."
Identity disturbance: markedly and persistently unstable self-image or sense of self.
Impulsivity in at least two areas that are potentially self-damaging (e.g., spending, sex, substance abuse, reckless driving, binge eating). Note: Do not include suicidal or self-mutilating behavior covered in (5).
Recurrent suicidal behavior, gestures, or threats, or self-mutilating behavior.
Affective instability due to a marked reactivity of mood (e.g., intense episodic dysphoria, irritability, or anxiety usually lasting a few hours and only rarely more than a few days).
Chronic feelings of emptiness.
Inappropriate, intense anger or difficulty controlling anger (e.g., frequent displays of temper, constant anger, recurrent physical fights).
Transient, stress-related paranoid ideation or severe dissociative symptoms.

I have started having anxiety attacks since H started sleeping with OW. Its a short period of constriction where inseem to be forgetting to breath.

I have no intense anger or physical fights. I am having more alcohol than i want (want 0) while with my parents who drink. But when i get home i will be back to a carb-free alcohol free lifestyle.

Im sorry, Men, but overall i leave it to You to prove I have BPD. I just dont see it. Unless you think my anxiety and fear of being abandoned by my husband is indicative if psychosis? Is everyone here BPD then?

[StillStanding]

Why exactly are we trying to prove if someone does or doesn't have BPD? UP, if you are concerned about what emotional issues or personality disorders you might be suffering from, then I think you should be talking to a psychiatrist. It might also be a good idea, to help you deal with learning detachment.

In my opinion, I don't see how you can develop detachment in the situation you are in. You take what he says and does far too personally which is probably the worst thing you can do, with him being deep in Replay. You are still emotionally and sexually involved with your husband while he is seeing (and sleeping with) someone else, which confuses you far more than it does him; heck, he probably thinks this makes him a total stud—he's got two women who can't keep their hands off of him! Does he think he's going to get to call you up for the occasional booty call after the divorce is final?

Setting and enforcing boundaries will not be that hard, once you accept that his plans to divorce you have little to do with your behavior in this relationship. He is planning to leave because that is what he thinks will make him happy, and nothing you say or do at this point will change that. If anything, this gives you more power in your situation: he's already filing for divorce, so if you tell him to get out of the house as long as he is seeing OW, what is he going to do? Divorce you more?

[Rebel Yell]

"Im sorry, Men, but overall i leave it to You to prove I have BPD."
I saw doc ask if you had researched it, unless I missed something.
I know nothing about it myself. It sounded as if you think all men here were
saying you had it. And I may have missed it but that was the only reference I saw.
I don't group all women together on what one may have said and I'd appreciate
the same respect. My post was referring to your affair / affairs.

It's 100% up to you in what you do. We support each other here very
well. However folks will also say what they think. Some may hit you
with a 2x4 wrapped in foam, covered with velvet, and some will just
smack ya with one bare. It's up to you to do what ever you will with advise that's given.
We will support you anyhow. We have all made huge mistakes with this, and it doesn't
really matter, because this isn't about us. It's about a person in a crisis.

[justasking]

I see guilt in your actions, but not remorse

UP

On your other thread where this has been discussed in depth I see remorse. And part of the remorse is guilt. You don't have to justify yourself to anyone here just yourself and God.

IMO you are moving towards forgiveness of yourself from your affair. You know that needs to happen before you can move forward. Part of that is to gain detachment for you to heal for you.

At the moment you are starting many discussion threads. IMO this can and is confusing for you and makes you swirl like a tornado.

The positives I see since you started posting are acknowledging your affair and how it impacted on yourself, your H and your S. An ability to understand detachment even though you need to continue to learn to get there and an acknowledgement from you that your marriage hasn't always been calm and peaceful due to the character of your H.

Questions are good and let us gain knowledge and insight unless we are sooo vulnerable that it makes us dig our hole deeper. IMO emotionally you are getting stronger. But you are willing to agree with everyone about your personal situation and about your H. Take a step back. Reread your posts and you will get the answers you are asking at the moment.

And for what it's worth I don't think your BPD either just an emotionally traumatised individual looking to make things right.

xx

Rebel

I believe the quote Im sorry, Men, but overall i leave it to You to prove I have BPD was aimed in a general direstion of posters who had raised it and not at all men in general 

[readytofixmyselffirst]

One thing to remember is that we don't or should not make any diagnosis of a personality disorder or medical condition. We give advice based upon the facts you have given us. We have to base our advice on what we read and hope that it understand what we read. We then have to write and try to convey our message in words that hopefully help our friends on the forum.

I am going to go back and look at your statements and hopefully you will see a pattern.

My switching this final EA to a PA was done out of anger. It was an "end game". I was destructive and out of control.

From my point of view, you have been destructive and out of control for a long time. Your issues are deep and troubling. I am not a therapist, but I have read your threads and your posts. I am not writing this to hurt you but to let you see that regardless of your h, you have to work on your issues and become strong.

[/quote]I was raped when I was 11 or 12. Maybe about to turn 12. Not sure. It was at a party I and my friend should not have been at. I had felt ill and went upstairs and locked the door to the bedroom so I could sleep it off. This 20-yr old guy came upstairs, got in the door somehow, and raped me. I was screaming but no one heard me. Afterwards I was completely unsure what to do, so I stayed with my friend at the party, and I became my rapist's girlfriend.[/quote]

This has resonated with me for a long time. Party, alcohol and drugs were involved, and a rape. Throughout your posts, you often refer to alcohol and the consumption of alcohol. Often you feel compelled to drink (parents and h). It is something you don't want to do, but you end up doing it anyway. Sound familiar?

I preyed on boys at times (asking them out, using them, dumping them) while in HIGHSCHOOL. But I also continued to be preyed on, in situations similar to that first time. Making myself totally available to MY RAPIST.

Once again, despite your desire to stop, you don't. This has been going on for a long time and this behavior does not develop healthy relationships. In fact, it leads to a deep resentment and anger that you recognize. It is one thing to be attacked and never to see the attacker again, but to have to submit to your rapist again and again is very destructive. He was controlling you and hurting you. Yet went back to him despite everything in you body and mind saying no.

I see many ways i let him abuse me and many things i did wrong.

You have lets lots of people abuse you and then blame yourself. It all rolls back to the issues you have not dealt with or allowed yourself to heal. Once again, your own guilt and self-loathing makes you feel guilty.

I want my life back

What life are you talking about? He has been an abusive spouse for a long time. You did not engage in your EA and PA because you felt your life with him was bliss.I am also very sure that the EA/PA was neither fulfilling or desired, but once again, you felt compelled to "do" something. I think your comment should be "I want a life without the guilt and blame I have been carrying for a long, long time."

Part of my journey is to learn how to set boundaries to keep him from abusing me (verbally, emotionally) and letting him control and manipulate me into victimhood.

Is having sex with him accomplishing this? I think you really need to go back and read what RCR wrote and take those words to heart. It is interesting that as a true victim, you look at him placing you into a place that you already occupy. In fact, part of your guilt and self-loathing is being a victim. Let's face it, the number one thing a rape victim states that fills them with disgust is that they wanted to fight back and hurt their attacker and they did/or could not.

May I be so bold to suggest that you learn to make and set boundaries for you. How about no drinking? How about setting goals and expectations for yourself.

He loves me. He has been making love with me since BD and continued to make love with me after he started seeing this other woman, whom he TOLD me about in advance. Every time I cry to him about it he says: "But it was OK for YOU TO DO IT"

Does that sound like love? I am not here to judge you or him but just because one person has an affair does not make it okay for the other to have one too. Everything about his ACTIONS show control and manipulation. That may or may not be MLC, but it does reflect the issues you have had in forming relationships with men.

Im sorry, Men, but overall i leave it to You to prove I have BPD. I just dont see it. Unless you think my anxiety and fear of being abandoned by my husband is indicative if psychosis? Is everyone here BPD then?

This is very interesting and I really feel that you made the comment to men. You see the diagnosis as an attack and I actually see you fighting back as healthy. For so long you have been hurt and I see someone that needs some real TLC (hugs and validation) that your h cannot give to you right now.

I really do pray for you and your son and I mean you no harm. I really think you should have nothing to do with your h or any men in general until you resolve the issues that have controlled you and haunted you. In fact, a healthy you is more important than your marriage and it will help you be a loving mother and a capable and emotionally sound person. Then you can start to pave the way.

((((hugs))))