[LisaLives]

All we own are OUR OWN FEELINGS AND REACTIONS.  I did not come here to argue, and my posts are not necessarily advocating "dating."  They ARE advocating opening ourselves to the possibility of not strictly standing forever.  Many of my comments have been taken out of context. 

I do respect people who choose to stand--they have no questions--I admire that.  MOST people are not that morally convicted.  MOST people who come here in pain KNOW they won't stand forever, but their pain is no less real, their marriages had no less meaning, and the sudden shift in reality was no less shocking.  The problem though is that permanent standers dominate the conversation and newbies might be left wondering where they will go when don't have the stamina or desire to stand any longer.  Are they failures?  Do you really believe that? 

Why do you react so strongly?  Are you afraid if non-standers don't leave they might come back in several years with reconciled M's even though they did not stand?  Are you afraid they will be happier than they ever dreamed in new M's?  Why do my words bother you so much?  Take what you need and leave the rest…   I am not trying to convince anyone that I am right--only that if they have the same questions I have, if their situation looks anything like mine--meaning I did not have the perfect M and perfect spouse and they have no strong moral conviction to stand--that they owe it to themselves to explore their stand and their reasons for standing. 

And RCR says in many places that standing is different for every person.  Can you stand if you had an open marriage?  What would that look like?  Are you standing if you never date, but end up in an EA with your work spouse?  The idea that standing is behaving as if your marriage still exists while your MLCer is out leading another life with another woman and family is farce, at some point.  Was sex the only part of the vows that counts?  Why remain sexually chaste while separating finances is advocated? 

No one has to answer to me, no one has to read anything I write.  RCR has NEVER asked me to leave even though I have raised many of these issues before, but I always tell her I will leave if she wants me to.  I have corresponded with her about standing in my case, and she admitted it's a tough call.  But, on the other hand, the soft part of me that loved the man I married--heart, mind, body and soul--the person who made those vows with deep conviction, still feels like a stander in many ways, and still struggles every day with when I will know that I am totally done--will I ever be able to truly let go, and if not, why? 

And I still have to face my fears every day.  The fear that he might come back and I might have moved on.  If that happens, will what I have be better than what I might have with him?  Even if he did come back, could I ever forgive him?  And what about my kids, what is the best thing I can do for my kids, find a man who treats me well, or find a way that leads me back to their D, who has hurt both of them, also.  What would they really think if I ever took him back?  And if I wait, is that the easy way out?  Because no matter what happens, I can BLAME him forever—that I was true, but he screwed  up my life, that I sacrificed everything for him.  What ARE my biggest fears, and what will take for me to face them?  Are they emotional, sexual, financial, are they about pride, or esteem, or security? 

I do NOT have ANY answers, only questions, but I also don’t believe anyone, not even RCR has answers, only theories…  Love and light to all, ll   
       

[justbelieve]

LisaLives - i love your spark! You make me smile. i love when someone throws a 'spanner in the mix' so to speak.
Gives me more to ponder on.
Light and love to u too

[leftylulu]

I have enjoyed what LL writes mostly because it does make me think. I like having different perspectives. My daughter made me think last night. I am a longtime stander and continue my stand with no need to justify why I stand. At first I found it almost a little too contraversial but I don't mind it when I find myself outside my comfort zone. It means I'm growing.

Take care,
Lulu

[LearningIamOk]

I feel it has been very healthy for everyone to consider the issues put forth on this thread.

As LL points out, most come here in extreme pain. All are looking for answers. The answers are elusive because the MLCer is operating alone and on a very selfish plane of existence. Did we contribute to this? Probably. Can we fix it? No. Unfortunately, we need to wait for the MLCer to find their own way. This is very hard to allow to happen. A broken person trying to heal and figure out their life.

I believe that everyone here loves their spouse. Even if the love is there, are they prepared to Stand indefinitely? That's up to each individual. I only have to live with me. Each person here only has to live with themselves. It's all about what you can live with.

Do you want to Stand indefinitely? Then do it. There is no shame in that. It all depends on your personal preference. Will it be better for the LBS to continue a long stand or is it better to move on and hope for a reconciliation down the road? Only the individual LBS can make that call.

[Thundarr]

LL, I just want to thank you for a very well thought out and extremely well-written thread topic.  You speak for many of us in that we are young and do not want to spend our lives alone, although we still love the ones who no longer want to be with us.  I loved everything you said and it resonated with me in that I was part of the similar discussion on DGU's thread.  As of now I'm standing and have made no moves toward dating or pursuing anyone else as I have to prioritize the kiddos, but will that be the case by the end of the year?  By the end of next year?  I don't know what is most right for me, but I definitely want to share my life with someone and hope it's my XW.  But, if she really has made up her mind and moved on........

[stayed]

Welcome to your new thread Lisa Lives.  Know you are very, very welcome and your thoughts and insights are greatly appreciated.

hugs Stayed...

[LettingGo]

Lisalives.... where have you EVER seen any encouragement for anyone to stand indefinitely? I think you are projecting... bigtime... and I don't say that with disrespect or anger at all.... it just isn't making any sense... mething thou doth protest TOO MUCH!!

RCR DID start her forum for people who are NOT considering divorce... although most of us fall into the category of keeping it as on option... she mentions "Covenenant Keepers" as an example of those who "stand indefinitely", but so what if they do? WHO IS IN CHARGE OF YOU? Not me... Not anyone BUT you!!

I feel like you are "CONCERNED" that someone here will  get SUPPORT for "not divorcing or dating"... WELL... let me tell you something... the WHOLE WORLD supports people who feel divorce is best for them... the WHOLE WORLD supports those that feel infidelity deserves a kick to the curb.... the WHOLE WORLD is UNCOMFORTABLE with women or men who STAY with cheaters, because very often.... men/women stay with cheaters because of low self esteem.... but  I can tell you FOR SURE, that anyone on this forum who is STANDING FOR THEIR MARRIAGE is swimming against the tide.... taking the HIGH, HARD road.... following their GUT INSTINCT, but suffering RIDICULE for it....

No one came onto the "I'm moving on for a lot of valid and personal reasons" forum and tried to convince you to STAND!! We were just HERE... STANDING, and you showed up, QUESTIONING OUR PERSONAL CHOICE, and NOW, according to YOUR posts on THIS particular thread, you feel the NEED to warn us against "standing indefinitely"... uhhh. ...I feel comfortable in saying I have read every article published on this site by RCR... several times... if I didn't agree or get something from it, I wouldn't be her part of the time... but I CERTAINLY wouldn't be WARNING anyone against some phantom  encouragement to stand forever, or disagreeing with the SITE OWNER!!! WHY??? Like I said.. there are plenty of websites, forums and certainly REAL LIFE support for people who would NOT describe themselves as "standers".... WTH does this have to DO WITH YOU?

Oh, and to anyone who feels just like LisaLives, this is not an attack... but WTH are you gettin from this site if you DISA-firetruckING-AGREE with everything RCR started this website for??? Really? It's like an Atheist trolling on a CHRISTIAN website arguing with the convictions of the members..... no one asked you to agree or disagree... but WTH are you here for, really? HEALING? That's a crock... you are here because you are UNCERTAIN OF YOUR OWN CONVICTION..... think about that. IF YOU ARE SO CERTAIN THAT STANDING IS NOT FOR YOU... then why aren't you over on Match.com right this very minute??? Oh..... because you aren't CERTAIN and you have QUESTIONS....

[justwatching]

I find it hard to take one side or the other on this issue.  It is a topic that all of us have , or will deal with, determining whether to continue standing, or when it's over.  I've given my spouse many opportunities to reconcile and the answer is vague, and one quote, "I really haven't thought about it."  Facing the fact that a number of MLCer's do not come back, many of us will be left alone.  I know my wife's resolve and I don't see her coming back. 

I stood for my kids while they were teenagers.  I felt that since I had a solid upbringing, that I owed it to them to stabilize the household.  They are going to be 19 and 21 this year, and they need to move on somewhat with their lives.  I've been in a holding pattern for over four years and nothing has changed with regards to her personality except that she's not as angry. 

In summary, standing is a topic for this board and a time of letting go is also part of the process.  Trying to argue this topic is like trying to argue which religion is right.  I suggest you view all perspectives because we all have to to face the fact that our spouse may not return. 

[LisaLives]

LG, I always said I was uncertain.  I don't have strong convictions about much of anything... 

I am not sure why that rant was necessary, but if it made you feel better, so be it.  I have huge doubts about Christianity too, but one of my best friends is a PASTOR who loves to drink wine with me and have deep philosophical and religious discussions about where we differ and where we are the same and how she still chooses God and Jesus Christ.  She never rants at me, nor does anyone in her lectionary group who love my questions.   

And no LG, no one else knows what it is like to make the choice we make, to stand or not to stand when the person you loved becomes someone you don't even recognize.  No one else knows what it's like to ride the crazy train.  All I was doing was putting out there the thought that if you are not going to stand forever, how are you going to decide when you are done, and if you choose to stand, are you really sure why.  If those questions are too uncomfortable for you, then don't read them.  I am not the one protesting! 

Love and light to you, I hope that gave you peace, ll   

[xyzcf]

Why do you react so strongly? Why do my words bother you so much?

My own feelings about this is the exact opposite. Somehow the words of Standers seems to bother you a great deal.

I have been thinking a lot about this thread and why it concerns me. I feel like there is this thought pattern emerging, that is the same thought pattern that our MLCers have as well as the rest of the world. That marriage isn't meant to last forever, that MLC really doesn't exist and thus trusting the process is such a waste of time, 6 months post BD.....go out and date and you'll feel much better.

That's what so many LBSers hear from their families and well meaning friends, and I often read people's frustration of these words that are said outside a website that support marriages. So hearing it here, is disturbing.

Most of all, I believe in saving marriages. My marriage may not ever be rebuild, but perhaps something I say will help another marriage from this site make it. One marriage saved will be enough success for me.

For people who are not sure of standing or are new to MLC, the time that we need to heal is a time where a great deal of support and acceptance is required which leads me to.......

Many of my comments have been taken out of context.

The problem though is that permanent standers dominate the conversation and newbies might be left wondering where they will go when don't have the stamina or desire to stand any longer.  Are they failures?

Is it a problem that I as a "permanent stander" which I am not quite sure what that means because I have no clue really when that might change for me to "dominate" the conversation.
I have never said that someone who doesn't stand is a "failure" ;

The idea that standing is behaving as if your marriage still exists while your MLCer is out leading another life with another woman and family is farce

Well, that's not according to the information here. This is a crisis. For some of us, our marriage still does exist because for many people here, our belief system is such that this is what we believe.

Because no matter what happens, I can BLAME him forever—that I was true, but he screwed  up my life, that I sacrificed everything for him. 

OK Lisa, that sounds to me as really blaming him messing up your life. It may not be what you meant but it is how it sounds.

Look, a variety of opinions are very valid and exploring oneself is part of the journey for the LBSer. I could stay away from reading anything on this thread but for some reason, there is this undertone of us against them and I am very sorry to see that on a site that has been so valuable and supportive to so many people.

I do not mean to hurt anyone by what I am saying, I can only express what I am feeling...and somehow it is not even about my own stich, it just seems to go against the grain of the information and knowledge that we have gained about MLC.