[stayed]

I never knew that it was NOT a two way street, until I got on these boards.

Me either OP.  I was brought up to believe marriages were between two people.  A marriage that broke up, was the fault of the two people within the marriage. I really believed that too.  When this first struck, I TOTALLY  believed I had to have been partially responsible.  Then, along came MLC!!!

Who knew??

hugs Stayed

[Trustandlove]

This really is a contentious issue; so much depends on the age of the children, and on what exactly the MLCer is or isn't doing.  I've spent years saying you can love someone and not like what they are doing, I've talked about boundaries as they have become old enough to understand, I've stated outright that I love and miss the H that was, I never stop them seeing him.

But what exactly do we want them to have a relationship with?  Their father, of course, but 'their father' is well and truly missing and the person walking around in his body isn't very likeable, nor does he model good behaviour. 

I've just had my D worrying about how to react "in case" H does something, things he hasn't even done yet -- that shouldn't be the case.  And at the same time worrying that he'll just disappear completely.  Not right.  And I'm not going to tell her to appease him so that he doesn't disappear, as we all know that doesn't work anyway. 

Grrr....

[Moving Forward]

The impact a parent's MLC has on their children is a HUGE concern for me. I believe that children suffer a double loss  - they have to endure their MLC parent emotionally withdrawing from them and the family and perhaps leave the family unit to go to an OP (who may or may not have children).

Children suffer a second time because the parent who is left behind is completely blindsided and their life, as the LBS knew it are in free fall. This is real for children of all ages whether young or old at BD each child has to try and come to terms with a huge loss. I believe MLC has a root cause of FOO issues when a key stage of development was skipped because of an 'event' and resurfaces at midlife with a vengeance.

It was very important to me that my exH's MLC didn't cast long shadows into my 2 children's future. My son was 11 at BD and my daughter was 8 - they are now almost 15 and 12. I stripped my parenting style back down to absolute basics when my exH left me - I was there physically for my children, practically sorting their meals and welfare and giving hugs and cuddles. I was lucky because I 'got' MLC within a few weeks of my exH's departure and separated me and my issue out from my kids and their needs etc.

I believe that I have become a much better parent as a result of my exH's MLC. His departure has meant that I have had to be much more 'present' with my 2 children (S14 and D12). I have been very focused on my kids and the impact that their Dad's departure would have. Four years on and my kids are well rounded, typical teenagers with full social lives, spots and all the usual angst. I have had to work hard on not blaming their Dad's departure for all of their ills ...lets face it all teens go through angry stages and being anti social etc.

I think the key headings for me have been (in no particular order):-

1. Regular and consistent contact with their Dad.
2. I haven't taken up with another bloke - I have dated two people in the last 4 years.
3. Open and age appropriate communication with them.
4. Pro-active interventions/discussions about key things
5. Modelling respectful behaviour in all areas of my life.
6. Building and maintaining healthy self esteem for them.
7. Active listening.
8. Speedy responses to thorny issues.
9. Build their resilience to situations so they have healthy boundaries.

As my healing has taken hold, I have built my relationship with them with a better set of tools. I slip back, a bit like the game snakes and ladders but overall my kids and I have a solid foundation.

I recently had a 1.5 hour conversation with my exH, it was all still about him and his wants/needs/desires. Him him him. I walked away very pleased to not have him in my orbit anymore. He expressed a desire to be there more for the kids, spend more time with them blah blah. 4 weeks on and he is still self absorbed and choosing to not spend extra time with his kids. My exH is a very manipulative man, cunning and sly with a smart suit and shiny shoes. He looks and sounds the part and people are taken in by him. I no longer see him that way, my 'detached reality goggles' are on!!

Protecting my kids from his manipulation, whilst still encouraging them to love him (but not his behaviours) is an ongoing issue for me. I definitely haven't found the single solution but I hope that by being present with my kids, open, non-judgmental, able to apologise and listen to them I can counter their Dad's manipulation. Being this kind of parent is hard work and doesn't leave much time for other romantic relationships which I think has been fundamental to my kids feeling safe with me.

I would love to know how we can support children of MLCer' better on this Forum. There are lots of LBS here who have children but are struggling to come to terms with their 'new normal'. The single Dad's who are on this Forum are such an amazing bunch - they show real love to their children and I am positive their relationships with their children will so much stronger and deeper as a result. It may not seem it at the time but the opportunity to be an awesome single parent is really a gift. Hard work but an amazing gift.

Well done for raising this issue Kikki, it is an issue so many LBS are concerned about but don't focus on it because we are too busy or have other concerns. It is not easy.

I am looking forward to seeing how this thread develops.

[Musica]

1. Regular and consistent contact with their Dad.
2. I haven't taken up with another bloke - I have dated two people in the last 4 years.
3. Open and age appropriate communication with them.
4. Pro-active interventions/discussions about key things
5. Modelling respectful behaviour in all areas of my life.
6. Building and maintaining healthy self esteem for them.
7. Active listening.
8. Speedy responses to thorny issues.
9. Build their resilience to situations so they have healthy boundaries.

Agree MF these are all important.

However the first one depends on the MLCer ... and on the kids too. My MLCer is in a particularly horrible phase ... chose to be on holiday for a month with OW last Summer when the Ds were here, then he was home when we 3 were away for a month.

Now he's going away for half term with OW, after asking last week what days the Ds were free so he could take them out ... I gave him 5 days of the week to choose.

So when my Ds see what he does, and feel he chooses her over them, they don't want to spend time with him, they are angry with him. Its a downward spiral, and he is the one in control of that, not me. So the regular and consistent contact goes out of the window, and when they do see each other, they don't enjoy the time together.

Its a vicious circle at the moment. I don't see it improving unless he changes his focus from OW to his Ds ... Ds refuse to meet OW.

xx

[kikki]

Thanks everyone for continuing the discussion.

MF, thanks for sharing your thoughts and experiences. 

I believe that children suffer a double loss  - they have to endure their MLC parent emotionally withdrawing from them and the family and perhaps leave the family unit to go to an OP (who may or may not have children).

Children suffer a second time because the parent who is left behind is completely blindsided and their life, as the LBS knew it are in free fall. This is real for children of all ages whether young or old at BD each child has to try and come to terms with a huge loss.

Agree completely - this hits the nail on the head.

Protecting my kids from his manipulation, whilst still encouraging them to love him (but not his behaviours) is an ongoing issue for me. I definitely haven't found the single solution but I hope that by being present with my kids, open, non-judgmental, able to apologise and listen to them I can counter their Dad's manipulation.

Being this kind of parent is hard work and doesn't leave much time for other romantic relationships which I think has been fundamental to my kids feeling safe with me.

I think you summed things up brilliantly here. 

I would love to know how we can support children of MLCer' better on this Forum. There are lots of LBS here who have children but are struggling to come to terms with their 'new normal'.

Nearly four years into this, this is something that I think about daily for my children.  How to continue to get them through this thing with the least amount of damage, and with the greatest amount of positivity for their own futures.

Its a vicious circle at the moment. I don't see it improving unless he changes his focus from OW to his Ds ... Ds refuse to meet OW.

Musica, this is absolutely the same case with my H and our boys.  He consistently makes his new life with the OW his priority - always has done, and for the past three summers, chooses holidays with her over spending time with his children. 
This hurts them deeply, although they pretend they no longer care. 
What a mess.

[Trustandlove]

Excellent post, MF -- and I know you have worked very hard with your children.

Mine were children when H left, they are now teens, with, as you say, all the "usual" teenage things.  But on top of that is a huge feeling of having been abandoned by their father; they've all articulated it. 

The one thing on your list that we struggle with is the "regular and consistent contact" -- I have the same problems as kikki and musica in that my H texts if and when he feels like seeing them, and then yes, gets miffed if they have other plans.  He only attends school events if it is convenient and so on. 

There are times when he does remember things, and then the kids get very excited that he called about the exam results, for example.   

Holidays can be trouble -- the last two years have been a disaster at Christmas (he doesn't ask to see them for any other holidays), when he invited them to Boxing Day lunch, the first time not saying anything about who else would be there and it turned out it was OW and her entire extended family including the dog; last year he promised they would be on their own but when they got there he said OW wanted to come anyway.  Children came home in tears; this year we've made other plans for the post-Christmas period already, D did see him and told him so, apparently he was miffed but he hasn't said anything to me -- it may well come out in other ways. 

They absolutely don't want another such situation, and of course do want to see him (which I've never hindered); there are plenty of days free around Christmas for that, and of course he continues to be welcome here with us.  The first years of the crisis he did spend Christmas with us, and quite a lot of other time as well; it's the last two that it's been very different. 

The children are adamant that they aren't toys to be passed back and forth; in general I think that they do feel they have a stable home with me, they've never had rooms or anything at H's flat, which is very much a designer bachelor pad.  We believe that he now stays with OW most of the time, which by extension means with her teenagers as well. 

Like kikki and musica, he always chooses time with OW (or other things) over time with the kids, D articulated it this way:  "we're third -- first is work, then anyone or anything else, then us". 

I love your list, it's what I strive to achieve as well.  I do believe I am a MUCH better parent than I might have been because I really do remain very actively involved, and strive to make sure that any issues about anything are discussed promptly.  Both to deal with the issue at hand and to teach them that difficult conversations are necessary, that things can't be swept under the carpet.

I try to do as you do, MF, in that I remain polite and as neutral as I can be with him, however I, too, am now dealing with an MLCer who is now directing the anger at me.  This wasn't the case in the earlier years; perhaps latest OW has something to do with it but I only say that because his behaving in this manner coincides with her arrival on the scene. 

The children have tried to tell him how they feel, they have also written that has only resulted in anger directed at me.  I generally don't respond. 

The issue of communication over the kids is one that I struggle with; it's anything but regular and consistent.  As time goes on we live more and more our own lives; the last time I talked with my H (18 months ago?) I did say that I would always work with him for our family, however in the current situation (I put it better at the time, can't remember now) my priorities would be protecting myself and the children. 

Oh, I'm not writing very well today, I'm in a hurry.  But yes, this is an important thread.  Very much so. 

[Trustandlove]

Have been thinking about this thread all day; I just looked on the sheet where I keep track of how much actual contact my children have with H, and see that he has seen one  S back in March (drove him to a sports fixture), then next in September -- S and D went for lunch with H.  The other S he saw on his own early April, then once in early October with D.  He's seen D a few more times, has had lunch or a walk with her 5 times since Easter, including the times with her brothers.  We all attended his mother's burial in August.

This lack of contact has been going on for the past 10 months or so; before that he'd come to our house every week to cook dinner and eat with the children.  He did that for about 18 months, before that he'd come once a week to spend some time with them.  The coming and cooking were all at his own instigation; he stopped very suddenly after Christmas last year and in August gave the children a letter (in response to their having written how they felt) that said he wasn't coming any more because of me, and blaming me for everything else that was wrong. 

I completely second what musica said:

Its a downward spiral, and he is the one in control of that, not me. So the regular and consistent contact goes out of the window, and when they do see each other, they don't enjoy the time together.

H is a good cook, so they do like his lunches, but they've fed back to me that there was nothing to talk about, or that he talked about himself and how he needs to lose weight.  He once tried to bring up this situation with D, but apparently told her that it was me who was the one with the problem (because I wasn't OK with his choices, didn't go find someone else, and so on) which completely isn't appropriate.   Anything D said fell on deaf ears. 

In my case I think a lot of the MLC had to do with not feeling he was ready to be a father when they were born, and now he wants that unfettered life that he somehow thinks I denied him.    So doubly absent parent. 

But, rather than just saying what is happening, is there anything we can do?  All my attempts to involve him in parenting have failed; he now even refuses to acknowledge that special needs S won't 'get better'. 

[kikki]

D articulated it this way:  "we're third -- first is work, then anyone or anything else, then us".

T&L - I think this is at the crux of the problem.  Our children feel just as betrayed and abandoned as we do, but how do we walk the fine line of encouraging them to have some sort of a relationship with their MLC parent, all the while helping them develop the skills and understanding in how to deal with their parent's crisis behaviours.  Not an easy task.

My boys would probably say that their Dad puts work first, OW and other work related enablers second, band practice third, and then they may come fourth if they are lucky.
Heck, even the OW apparently said to Bursty recently that he doesn't act like a father.  She has barely been around him and the boys, so wouldn't have been able to observe his strange behaviour towards them (apart from the obvious one of living with her instead of them - duh!), and she is not a parent herself, but after observing quite a few skype sessions this year between S19 and his Dad, apparently she said he wasn't being a very supportive father, more of a mate. 

Anger and blame projected towards us when the kids don't jump when the MLCer says jump is not an easy time.  It took a long while, but Bursty finally seems to be taking responsibility for this now. 

It took the boys a long time, but I personally think it did help when they could stomach occasionally coming across the OW.  Try as a MLCer might - there is no way they can pretend that there is ever going to be any sort of connection there.  It did help to diffuse the pressure.
There is no way that the younger two would ever agree to sitting down and sharing a meal with her, but S19 has in recent months, and Bursty said he was pleased that S19 had the 'maturity' to be able to do this and to be polite.  I just nodded my head.  He then said, but he's not at all interested in engaging her in any sort of conversation though? 
That one will probably take him a further year to mull over. 

And if anyone doubts the nutcase level here - imagine having this discussion with your wife of 20 something years - talking about your girlfriend that no one in the family likes 
I can only but imagine, that in those moments, he is back in life two, and it's part of the dissociation (or compartmentalisation).

In terms of their lack of support with any raising of our children, I do find I just have to be grateful, that he is continuing to support the boys financially.   As for the rest of it - I don't know that there is anything else that we can do, apart from accept that there will be zero parenting.
I find that whenever I have asked for help, it has ended up a bit of a mess.
For instance, I am fed up with being left with 100% of everything to do with all our assets and responsibilities.  I finally asked him to please be responsible for getting S15's scooter serviced.  He willingly did, but he didn't bring it immediately back.  Surprise, surprise, the scooter ended up being stolen.  It turned up weeks later - very damaged.  Meanwhile, Bursty managed to lose the key that we had for it. He has no clue where he has put it.

He's less reliable than my three teens put together.  I just have to accept that he is a man in crisis, and that it will continue to be bizarre. 

Is there anything we can do about the lack of parenting?  Honestly, I do not think that there is. I just find that day by day, we have to make the best decision in the moment, and take each day as it comes.

[kikki]

Came across these articles again recently, from the Self Focus thread.

http://jamesjmessina.com/toolsforcontrolissues/eliminatemanipulation.html

http://jamesjmessina.com/toolsforcontrolissues/letgoofuncontrollables.html

http://jamesjmessina.com/toolsforangerworkout/handlingresentment.html

[Jagger]

Hi Kikki and  all fellow Lbs's,

Ive given this so much thought since my h's crisis began almost 2 and a half years ago. I put my children( d14,s9,s9) and myself in therapy right away. It was a godsend but I was initially a little miffed and perturbed because their therapist didn't focus on the trauma of having been left by their father. I didn't understand it at the time but I am so very grateful for it in retrospect.

His focus was on building their self esteem so that they could navigate their everyday life effectively. He guided  them  to find the  tools necessary to control their own  world and to not get dragged into their fathers crisis. His phillsophy was more or less " this is a horrible situation that you are in , but you don't have to be a victim, you are only responsible for yourself and your future."

I beleive that our children get their cues from us. If we focus on our MLC crazy absentee husbands/wives , they will as well. They don't have the life experience to navigate what is essentially a midlife problem. Kids need one good  healthy parent to nurture and guide them through childhood and adolescence into adulthood. A relationship with the absent parent is a bonus, but we as The LBS are not responsible for that relationship. If we're not careful that is exactly what happens. That role is thrust upon us by both our H/W and our children. Our children follow and want to please but often they have to deny their feelings and that is where the damage begins. They just want to trust us. They are on their own life journey  and they need to feel safe and free to do .

Hopefully, when our spouses emerge from the tunnel , they will be able to make an honest  attempt towards a genuine relationship with their children.

My 2 cents for what it's worth.

Hugs jagger