[stayed]

I can see from reading your experiences, that my family was "spared" a great deal of the anxiety, stress and heartbreak that your families have been subjected to.  Being the ages they were, by the time he reached full blown MLC, and the fact that we moved to Europe with only 1 child in tow, they had very little contact with him, during his worst. 

As you know, we had a bit of a honeymoon phase for the first two years here in Europe.  Then his mom died, our children became engaged, two actually married and one was expecting our first grandchild(she miscarried that one), when the evil fear of GROWING OLD set in and he fell totally into the black hole of MLC.  Found himself an nice OW, in between the 2 marriages... that being sometime between September and December of 2004.   

They were exposed minimally.  Summer of 2005 our youngest son returned to Canada to start university.  My mother was in the final stages of cancer.  Was undergoing radiation and really was not safe home alone.  I honestly felt it was my duty to stay and care for her.  My siblings had done more then their fair share, while I was moving around the world with my h and kids.  None of them could afford to take the time off work, I was not working and felt it was my turn to take on the burden they had all been baring, all these years that I was away. 

During that year, they saw plenty of their father.  All of them could see how bat$hit crazy he was.  Fortunately, they were spared the in your face, day by day, CRAZINESS that your children have been exposed to.  They saw enough of him to realize that part of the weird, irritable, cranky, hard to please man that they saw in 1997 onward had been the prelude to this grand finale, out of his mind crazy that was coming home every few months, from 2004 to 2006.  BUT definitely not to the extent that any of you are having to deal with.

My heart goes out to you and your kids.  Thank goodness they have you as mom's and dad's. 

Jagger, I was just about to post when your posting prevented me.  What an amazing approach by your counselor!  I would never have thought of that.  I would have thought it necessary to dwell on the MLC parent for a portion of the treatment, then to go on to the life lessons, self esteem, take responsibility for yourself approach.  Must say, I am impressed!  Looking forward to hearing from others.  I am ever hopeful that due to proactive LBS's and good counseling, much damage can be minimized. 

Hugs Stayed 
 
   

[Trustandlove]

A relationship with the absent parent is a bonus, but we as The LBS are not responsible for that relationship. If we're not careful that is exactly what happens. That role is thrust upon us by both our H/W and our children. Our children follow and want to please but often they have to deny their feelings and that is where the damage begins. They just want to trust us. They are on their own life journey  and they need to feel safe and free to do . 

I like this, J.  I know in my sitch my H has been trying to thrust that role upon me, saying things such as "you don't encourage them to see me", as if it WERE my responsibility, when he knows that he is welcome to any time, it is completely within his control.  And being upset that he isn't consulted about our plans, when in reality he is completely removed from our lives. 

And yes, our children SO want to trust us.  Mine struggle with H in that regard, especially D -- she says that she has a very hard time with things H says because she so wants to trust him and believe him because he is her Dad, and then she goes away and thinks  about it and realises what he says isn't true.  It's very hurtful and confusing for her, which IMO is all the more reason for us to be completely open, honest and trustworthy. 

I do wonder how good it is for our children to see the full-on craziness; if he ever comes out of it might it be better that they don't have that as a memory?  Just thinking out loud.    Kind of like the way we need to keep away from it. 

[IStillMatter]

My dad died when I was 12.  My mom went into a deep depression.  My life was chaotic.  I think that's when I started having control issues.

Now I look at my D13.  I can see her heart is breaking but she has put up a shield of anger.  I have to be careful to allow her to have her own feelings about her dad without projecting my own hurt into the mix.  I want her to have a dad/daughter relationship - but it needs to be a 'healthy' one and not just because I want her to have a chance at what I didn't have. 

[stayed]

Wow, life gets so confusing at time.  Reading your personal situation ISTillMatter, just makes this all so much harder for me to grasp.  Your father DIED... he couldn't help that... he just plain couldn't.  Our spouse, the parent of our children, have a mental break down of sorts... and can't seem to pull their heads out of their backsides, to save anybody... themselves, their children... you.

It really doesn't make a lot of sense to me... Hugs Stayed

[Trustandlove]

I was talking to D this morning about why she thinks so many MLC parents text or talk to their kids like teenagers or buddies post BD. Without even having to think about it, she said, "I don't think it's as much about them wanting to appear "cool." I think that when they hurt us, they want to act like our peers so it takes away their responsibility as a parent who should know better and do better. The problem is that they aren't our peer. They still are our parent and it's all just pathetic and cliché and adds to the discounting and the hurt." 

I copied this from Phoenix's thread -- it's so very well put.  It's exactly why my H spends more time with OWs sons and with his nephews than with his own children, because he can be just their buddy, to them he's not a parent who isn't measuring up. 

And it's exactly like my D says -- she so wants her father to be a dad, and she wants to trust and believe what he says, and when she realises that's not the case it does her head in.

[Stillpraying]

......
For some reason in the real world, people seem to assume that divorce is a two way street.
That it is a RELATIONSHIP BREAKDOWN, nothing can be further from the truth.

I never knew that it was NOT a two way street, until I got on these boards.

I thought the same...that TWO people both decided not be be married any more.  Now I know different.  two people are responsible for their own part of the problems in the marriage but it only takes one to decide to leave.   That's where this all sucks!!  We had TWO people agreeing to a life long commitment and then only one has to call it quits.

I recently made this statement to my sister as she dismisses the enormity of the impact of H's betrayal and abandonment and the 2 OW's has on my kids.  A few months ago she flipped me of by stating that 'It happens to many kids today'  .  Yes it does but that doesn't make it any less upsetting for them, her nephews and niece.
We have not been invited as a family to her place ONE since exH left (apart from a birthday or Christmas when everyone was invited).  This I find hurtful the most.  That my own family don't wrap their arms around these little ones.  I pray for good male role models in the lives of my kids.  The older 2 now go to 'Boys Brigade' at a church nearby and I am so thankful for these young and older men who can demonstrate what it is to be a man.

Please keep sharing on this thread people.   It is inspiring and so helpful to read what is helpful to our kids and other kids we know, going through this.
Hugs,
SP

P.S  Keep wondering what my boys (11,9 and 7) think about dad's new t-shirt   The back of a woman with long hair getting out of the water semi naked).  For some reason I really noticed it when I dropped S7 off.  Couldn't help thinking it looked ridiculous on a 47 yr old man with a newly grown beer gut.  I know these kids are way more intuitive than we give them credit for.  Probably just roll their eyes  ::)and get on with being kids at dad's place.

[Trustandlove]

I agree about the importance of good male role models, particularly for our sons.  Daughters need them too, though -- their fathers are their models for how men can treat women. 

My S and I have talked about this, and he's listed all the men in his life that he does look up to; it still hurts and confuses him, though, that his own father doesn't want to be a dad. 

My D has a poster in her room saying, among other things, that sometimes you have to get lost in order to find yourself;  that as has been a starting point for this kind of conversation, that perhaps Dad is lost (and that's why he's unable to be a dad) and needs to find himself. 

What I try to keep on the right side of, however, is that my kids have sometimes thought that it is up to them to do something to get dad to be a dad; I do say outright that it isn't their responsibility, and that in truth it isn't even possible for them to "do" anything. 

They, D in particular, do want to "do" something; we have talked a lot about how any change has to come from him, and that having healthy boundaries is what they can "do". 

An example of such a boundary is that D shouldn't be put in the middle between either dad and the boys, or dad and me. 

[in it]

On the Women Winter Workshop thread that was started there were some other ideas of how to save money..property taxes etc..

This thread doesn't have to just include holidays etc..but they are coming and with it more emotional situations.

If anyone has any suggestions on how to save money this year due to whatever thier circumstances they are welcome to post it here!

[in it]

http://www.thesimpledollar.com/little-steps-100-great-tips-for-saving-money-for-those-just-getting-started/

[Tired Of It All]

Hi,
       Thanks for posting this.   I am always looking for ways to save.  My Mil and I make some presents (cookies, jam and candy).   We will pool the things we have and this helps both of us. We try to buy some gifts that are not gender specific, an adults and a childs. We have them wrapped and ready in case someone brings an extra person.  Everyone gets a gift. We usually buy these after Christmas.  We are bargain shoppers.  I don't mean to sound cheap but,  I didn't come from people with a whole lot of money.  I have learned to be frugal.
                                                   Thanks!  K