[Phoenix]

Dear Voyager and Stayed,

Thank you for your always wise, thoughtful and supportive replies.  After I posted last night, I saw the thread on Children and OW/OM and was not surprised so many of us are dealing with this complicated and stressful situation.  My daughter expressed today that she is having thoughts about becoming an attorney or some similar career to support and affect change for children in custody situations.  She is frustrated by the courts increasingly standard decision that parents have shared custody. In our state, youth must adhere to the order of the court regarding custody and visitation until they are 18 years of age. Some judges take the child's views and desires into account, but most feel the best interest of the child is automatically served by having an equal relationship with both parents unless one has been proven unfit (not as easy as it may sound). The other parent can be found in contempt of court if she or he does not make the child go for visitation, and I just read an article today about a 14 year old boy who spent 4 days in jail for refusing visitation with his father.  It's absurd, but a lot has changed with the court system in the U.S.  It used to matter if infidelity was involved, but now states are No Fault and most judges don't bat an eye or even allow testimony as they do no see how it is relevant to support and custody.

I think my D has good reason to be concerned.  If her father files for divorce and legally pursues custody, he is likely to get 50% or anything else he requests below that amount of time.  D is appalled that kids are mandated to live in or visit unhealthy environments, morally questionable if not objectionable conditions, etc. And in her case the OW is someone she knew as my good friend and who was like a trusted aunt to her.  D cannot and will not see OW as her father's partner in any stretch of the imagination, will not legitimize them in any way, and sees them both as reprehensible betrayers.  Meanwhile her kids are allegedly "just fine" and will accept whatever (of course their father (also a LBS) started dating someone 17 years younger as soon a he filed for divorce against his adulterous wife, so he likes shared custody and having time for his new love.  Good grief. They are all nuts.  Marriages, families and children's mental health are not disposable, yet of the four adults directly involved in this, I am the only one standing and not with another partner.

Our D has clearly expressed her sentiments to her father, but he continues to disregard her as he did with the affair and quitting on our marriage and family.  I am also concerned that D will be dissuaded from continuing counseling if he does not stop asking for the name of her counselor and trying to get information about her sessions.  Unfortunately, many states do not have confidentiality laws for children, and even noncustodial parents have the right to access a child's medical and counseling records.  Our D said this only discourages kids from seeking counseling and speaking the truth for fear of how it will impact them and their situation in the future.  Grrrrrr.
Phoenix

[xyzcf]

One more thing to add to your stress level and it is hard to see a way out. I can see how some parents go "underground" in order to protect their kids.

I would hate to see her break off all contact with her dad, for both their sakes so my only suggestion is to somehow convince your H that he needs to see her without OW. Would your daughter consent to that?

Good luck and let us know what happens.

[Voyager]

Phoenix,
In my last post I commented that your D has said she doesn't want to see her F whilst OW is around. Not closing the door on him, but on the situation.
Therein lies some compromise in that they could see each other on neutral territory without OW.

I'm astounded by how the custody laws pan out where you live. I am not being flippant when i say that it sounds like a campaigning issue. Are there any Charitable groups or action groups that support the rights of children where you live?? I think your D has many good points to make about unhealthy environments etc.

Have you consulted with a Lawyer already?

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

[stayed]

Phoenix, I am shocked as well.  The U.S.'s seems to be moving backwards, I know in Canada and GB, children over the age of 12 have the right to make such decisions.  Unbelievable that a child must be subjected to such situations until they are 18... also, doesn't make much sense, seeing as they can move out of the home almost any time they want. 

I agree with the others, you need to talk to a lawyer and find out the TRUTH.  Believe me, everything you hear is not always true, so find out for yourself, from a lawyer of the state.  Assume NOTHING dear!
Hugs Stayed...

[True to myself]

I just wanted to point out that my D wanted to see her dad on her own. The few times he could manage it, OW rang him every time. D asked him if she could see him more and he said it was difficult if she wouldn't accept OW.

D said to H, 'you just don't get it, do you?'   And he didn't! So now there has been no contact between them for 6 months. He just couldn't see D on her own. It didn't fit in with his plans. So sad.

[stayed]

True to Myself, that is really sad!  He is going to have some issues to deal with from such a decision.  Why they think they can shove OP down the children's throats never fails to amaze me.  My h also tried that on our youngest son, who simply said, "sorry dad, can't do that.  I would be rude to her and that would be a nasty way to behave in her home and all.  Won't do it.  Don't want to know her, nor see you with her.  I have enough bad memories attached to this sh*t".  H never mentioned it again.

Good for your daughter though T&M, she is strong like her momma.

hugs Stayed...

[Phoenix]

D feels strongly that she cannot have a relationship with her father if he is in any contact with the OW.  Her father is as alien to her as he is to me.  His strange behavior and total disconnection from her for the 8 months prior to now (while still in the same house) has really changed the way she feels about him. Not to mention that he yelled and swore at her and stood over her with clenched jaw and fists when she dared to not just accept his behavior and excuses.  I don't mean that she was rude or disrespectful. These were times when she would try to share her feelings with him about how much she missed him, her family, her life...

He didn't even speak to her on her birthday when still living at home, but disappeared with OW the night before her b-day party, showed up a couple hours before the guests arrived and was furious that she did not accept his offer to greet guests and act (the operative word being ACT) like father of the year.  She said she will not provide the stage on which he can pretend to the rest of the world that he is the "good guy" when he has been so emotionally cruel to her and me and is nothing of the man we once knew.  She is grieving her father as if a death, but the body snatcher who has take over her father's mind, is toxic to her emotional and physical health and she needs to be NC for her own well-being. She is much happier and healthier with him out of the house and says she truly does not miss him.  She literally gets a bitter taste in her mouth when anyone speaks of him.  Se has stopped grinding her teeth and having nightmares since he moved out.

Interestingly, I think she has the perspective ad detachment down much better than I do, but society and the courts do not want to accept that stance from a young person.  Why should their need to do what is best for themselves be overlooked or different than the rest of us?  I understand they are not the LBS, but they are the Left behind Children, every bit as betrayed and abandoned, disillusioned and shocked by a parent they thought they could always count on, and should have been able to. 

MLC is so sad and destructive to these innocent young lives even when parents want to believe it is not or "children are resilient." We are all resilient in some way, but that does not mean unscarred and unchanged...

Phoenix

[kikki]

Just wondered how everyone handles this?

If the MLCer wants to remain a part of these events, do you allow it?
Or is this a boundary that you have put up - as a consequence for the continuing R with the OW (in my case this is becoming more and more public - despite the fact that he tells me he isn't ready to have a relationship with anyone - huh?.  I have to wonder what he is having with the OW then  To a large extent the boys and I are protected from this as he is living in another part of town and doesn't interact with any former friends, just his new 'hip' and work crowd.)

My kids (teenagers) don't want their family traditions split into two different locations, and would prefer that H comes here.
They have never met OW - at least not since she became the OW!! They did two years ago when she joined us in our home for dinner - before she became the OW.  She is so unmemorable that all three of our kids cannot recall her at all!!!

I'm pretty sure H knows exactly what reaction she'd get from them.  They are usually the most polite kids, but would have no problem in telling her what they think of them both, given what they have experienced in the past couple of years.

Would love to know thoughts on this one ........

[Synicca]

Kikki

Last year, for Thanksgiving... we would usually go to my family, but I was to much of a wreck, (h and OW professing their love to eachother on his FB) That day...so he went to his parents and I went to mine.

for Christmas, Ow had left early that morning back to NY, so H spent Christmas with me and My D at home.
( I ended up in the ER with an allergic reations to some anitbiotics) LOL!!

New years, H and I spent it "secretly" together at his Apartment.

my H's birthday He spent alone...My bday just passed he is in NY with OW. My D's 13th Bday in Feb, my H came to her
bday party and stayed for several hours.

Now that it has been a year, I wouldnt mind if he came to my family or vis versa...We actually spent a family reunion
(his family) together and easter he was with OW. He did come to my mom's for a gathering while OW was in NY

LOL...wow...that sounds VERY confusing huh?  This would not be a boundery for me..family is family no matter what.
(in my eyes)

[kikki]

Oh Syn you had me chuckling 

That is kind of confusing BUT I guess what you're saying is, you do whatever feels right at the time???  No hard and fast rules as the rollercoaster is everchanging?