[Velika]

IANTE, so interesting.

A few things I often wonder about re neurobiology and MLC:

• Why the sudden onset? I know I have read on other threads that there is an initial awareness that something is not right, but there seems to come a point when the person lacks awareness and instead projects outward. What might explain this if there is a chemical imbalance?
• What role might exercise play in this? It seems like many MLCs are preceded by sudden, intense fitness regimen. Would weight loss or endorphins play a role on brain chemistry?
• (Related)  A neurologist I spoke with told me that my MLC-H may have had a small stroke or aneurism. I remember feeling concerned that he was exercising so intensely that he could have a stroke. Could it be that our spouses' sudden behavior/personality change is not biochemical but biophysical? Has anyone looked into this?
• (Also related) My husband's MLC presented along with intense migraines. These coincided with SSRI use. I recently saw him and he was rubbing his temples. Has anyone else witnessed this in his/her MLC spouse? If so where were the headaches located, and were they accompanied by fevers or other physical symptoms?
• Vis a vis "pseudopsychopathy"/psychopathy. In the years leading up to bomb drop my MLC-H became increasingly interested in boxing. Post bomb drop several people told me they thought this was strange and out of character. I remember at times catching him watching a boxing match with a kind of blank look in his eyes and feeling a little unsettled. Now he is on to hunting, and even watching videos of how to skin animals. I know R2T mentioned these same interests in her MLCer who prior to MLC was a vegetarian. Have others also noticed an interest in violence in the MLCer?
  

Thank you in advance for any insights.

PS It is nice to read this thread with just insights and questions about neurobiology. Thank you!

[Roma]

Neurology and neurobiology and not the same thing. A neurologist wouldn't necessarily know anything about nerobiology or  psychopathy.

[Velika]

Neurology and neurobiology and not the same thing.

Forgive my clumsy terminology. I mean a sort of general idea about how the brain is physically operating.

Updated to add: I think others will understand general meaning behind my question. Thank you!

[Anjae]

I know I sound like a broken record, but MLCers do not suffer from psychopathy. Psychopathy is not reversible, MLC is. Once the crisis is over, the person goes back to normal.

We really have no idea what areas of the brain are affected during MLC, but the ones that are, are not permanently affected, as they would be in psychopathy (or another personality disorder). Same for most mood disorders, they are not reversible (some types of depression are, by bipolar or schizophrenia aren't).

One day there may be knowledge to reverse personality disorder as well as the irreversible mood disorder. For now, the best it is possible, it to have people who suffer from any of those conditions stable (sually with medication).

MLC is different. It is also different from conditions that permanently affect the brain. It is, for example, more similar to post-partum depression, since like post-partum depression, once it is gone, the persson is back to normal.

Neurotransmitters imbalance? For sure. MLC seems to have chemical imbalances of all sorts (hormones and neurotransmitters are chemicals).

But, can we please stop trying to link MLC to psycopathy and other personality disorders? Personality disorder do not show in adulthood. People who suffer from them don't go back to normal once the storm is over.

I don't think MLC is such a complicated thing from a neuro point of view. It is pretty much covert depression. Not that it is an easy thing, but it certainly is not psychopathy or schizophrenia.

• Why the sudden onset? I know I have read on other threads that there is an initial awareness that something is not right, but there seems to come a point when the person lacks awareness and instead projects outward. What might explain this if there is a chemical imbalance?

Easy, a chemical imbalance will get worst. Think menopause. Women have an awareness of it. However, for some women, the hormonal changes are very big and the woman starts to act strange, including projecting outward.

For MLCers, the depression is getting worst and worst. Outward projection is normal in depression. The person cannot see clear.

• What role might exercise play in this? It seems like many MLCs are preceded by sudden, intense fitness regimen. Would weight loss or endorphins play a role on brain chemistry?

Yes, weight loss and or/endorphins would play a role in brain chemesty. Those two things provoke changes in the brain. Same for adrenaline. However, and unlike what people think, exercise alone does not solve depression, If it did there would be no depressed sports peopel, and there are. And, of course, MLCers who exercise would stop being depressed. They don't.

• (Related)  A neurologist I spoke with told me that my MLC-H may have had a small stroke or aneurism. I remember feeling concerned that he was exercising so intensely that he could have a stroke. Could it be that our spouses' sudden behavior/personality change is not biochemical but biophysical? Has anyone looked into this?

Your husband could have had a stoke, or a aneurism, but have you ever seen a stroke or aneurism surviver? Trust me, they don't look like, or act like the way our MLCers do. They will have impairments and they need a recovery period. MLCers just keep speeding up. Well, biochemical is part of the biophysical and biophysical can involve biochemical.


PS: as an aside, how many of you have actually seen and talked to a real psycopath, let alone live with one? There is very strict criteria for someone to be a real psycopath. Trust me, you would have know if your spouse was one.

[kikki]

Anjae, don't think any of us (don't want to speak for anyone else but that was my assumption) were suggesting our MLCers were psychopaths.
We were noting the extreme changes in behaviour and personality and wondering if it was possible that those same areas of the brain had been affected by something (neurotransmitters, inflammation, reduced blood flow due to the depression etc) to produce out of character, unfeeling behaviours.

It is possible to have TIA's (transient ischaemic attacks) that are not full blown strokes that do not necessarily manifest in physical symptoms, or miniscule brain bleeds that affect a certain brain region but are not discovered because the person is not rocking up for a brain scan.

At this stage, none of us who have been in this for any length of time have any clue whether our MLCers will ever be normal again. Sometimes, it doesn't seem to be reversible.

[Anjae]

Anjae, don't think any of us (don't want to speak for anyone else but that was my assumption) were suggesting our MLCers were psychopaths.

Maybe not, but that is the idea that, at least to me, comes across, especially if articles about psycopathy are posted. And it is not the first time that it is mentioned that the MLCer is a psycopath. Or a narcissit. Or having some other personality disorder. I don't mean necessarly on this thread, but on the board.

I know it has to do with the parts of the brain that may be affected. But even if they are the same, the effect is not the same. And it is never enough to stress that, as a general rule, MLC is temporary.

Depression would explain all we see, including the out of character traits. Same with hormones. Or a combination of both.

We all would like to know what causes MLC and how to solve it, but I think we sometimes go too far and get into very complicated things, when, most likely, it is something relatively simple when compared to many neurological or psychiatric issues. It is just that nearly no one in the health professions is paying any attention to it.

And, of course, it would really help if MLCers calmed down their crazy lives. But they don't.

[xyzcf]

Anjae

I know I sound like a broken record, but MLCers do not suffer from psychopathy. Psychopathy is not reversible, MLC is. Once the crisis is over, the person goes back to normal.

I think that it may be that not all the spouses on here are having a MLC....indeed, after 7 1/2 years I see no signs of his crisis being over, I do however see signs that are listed under psychopathy. I also see signs of narcissism and depression and Aspergers and other mental health issues.

His actions, the way he lives his life...there is something really really wrong. He is one who I cannot see coming out of this...in some ways he is worse now than ever.

I don't know why, but I "suspect" something going on in his prefrontal lobe...articles like this help to educate me about the many things that can happen when there is a pathology in the brain and the causation of the change in behavior.

Since there is not any diagnostic test for MLC, we do see some come through their crisis but I am not sure these long term crazy spouses will ever "get better".

[Velika]

Anjae, don't think any of us (don't want to speak for anyone else but that was my assumption) were suggesting our MLCers were psychopaths.
We were noting the extreme changes in behaviour and personality and wondering if it was possible that those same areas of the brain had been affected by something (neurotransmitters, inflammation, reduced blood flow due to the depression etc) to produce out of character, unfeeling behaviours.

At this stage, none of us who have been in this for any length of time have any clue whether our MLCers will ever be normal again. Sometimes, it doesn't seem to be reversible.

Yes, I think the best way to try to understand what might be going on with the brain and regions that might be affected is to compare to better understood conditions or patterns of behavior.

I read that because depression and psychopathy affect the same regions, you can learn more about each by studying the other.

I was told by the neurologist that small aneurysms and strokes can go unnoticed. I can't claim any of our spouses had this.

I agree that there is no reassurance any of these MLC spouses can recover.

[kikki]

Maybe not, but that is the idea that, at least to me, comes across, especially if articles about psycopathy are posted. And it is not the first time that it is mentioned that the MLCer is a psycopath. Or a narcissit. Or having some other personality disorder. I don't mean necessarly on this thread, but on the board.

Although you do know that those of us that are on these particular threads have always believed that something went seriously wrong in their brains to produce these sudden behaviours.
I didn't read the whole article, but if those particular brain areas are not functioning in psychopaths, it would appear that they are born that way, and it is not their fault per se, but of course they remain a chilling threat to society.  Or as one of the famous examples showed, accidental injury to a particular brain area showed an extreme change in personality. We just don't have obvious reasons for the extreme changes. And because it involves an OW/OM, it gets masked behind that.

Our MLCers have developed some especially chilling thought processes and behaviours. They may resolve, we all hope they do, but some simply will not. 

[Anjae]

Yes, I think the best way to try to understand what might be going on with the brain and regions that might be affected is to compare to better understood conditions or patterns of behavior.

We have been doing this for years. I am not certain that, in the end, it took us mucn further than depression.

We do not have any idea exactly what MLC affects. We have no scans, no tests of MLCers brains, hormones, blood tests. The article about psycopatjy states: "It is important to recognize that this method provides only indirect evidence of the possible regions implicated in psychopathic symptomatology" most likely because no one knows exactly which regiong are affected nor has direct evidence.

Kikki, if you read the article, they really don't any certainty about the brain regions. It is the same for most psychiatic issues, until it is know what causes them, they are psychiatry, when the cause becomes know (like dementias or epylepsy) it becomes neurology.

Psychopathy is of real mof psychiatry, meaning it is not known what causes it or what areas of the brain are trully affected. It is thought that psychopathy comes from birth.

I was told by the neurologist that small aneurysms and strokes can go unnoticed. I can't claim any of our spouses had this.

I don't know about small aneurysms, but small/tiny strokes can, and often, go unnoticed. it is not possible to know if any of our spouses had one of those. And they may have had it and be totally separated from MLC.

We really do not know that much. We know MLCers suffer a personality and behaviour change. We know that once out of crisis the MLCer strange behaviours are one, thus the damages/affect parts of the brain is not permanent.

Kikki, I am fairly sure something went wrong in the brain and at an hormonal level. Stress is an hormone and, for me, stress is a huge factor in MLC. Stress has big effects on the brain, behaviour, etc. I just don't think it is something much more complicated than stress and depression and its effects on the brain.

Those effects can cause many damages while the person in under suich stress and depressed. But in MLC, once the crisis is gone, the behaviours are also gone and the person goes back to normal. So, the effects are temporary. Which makes sense. Once the crazy MLC behaviour/lifestyle ends, the levels go back to normal.

Or better, once LIminal Depression wears off. Liminality is a hard place and one where things are still imbalanced.