[a]

Hi

To those who understood my intention - thank you.  To those who were offended i am sorry.  We all need to heal in our own way - and i realise that understanding the psychology behind human behaviour offers comfort.  My wish for you all is that once you have finished analysing and trying to understand that you finally find an answer that is acceptable and comforting to you.  Like Dr Eagleman, a neuroscientist' said the greatest three words that science has ever contributed to exploration and discovery is "I DON'T KNOW". 

The more science discovers the more it realises that we haven't even scrapped the tip of the iceberg.  I think this also applies to the working of the human brain the most complex organ that is, as yet, not fully understood - no matter how many discoveries have been made so far the paradigm will shift with future discoveries and maybe so will theories of psychological disorders

Up until recently it was accepted that our genes and therefore our biology was hard wired in the genetic code - now science is discovering that is not the case that in fact our thoughts and our environment can alter the expression of a gene and therefore could alter the expression of the way a hormone is produced.  So my hope for you and myself is that at some point - once we have all finished dissecting the MLC - we come to find that we don't really know and that's OKAY.  That's all i was trying to convey - not very well it seems - so for me i think once we become okay to leave this behind and accept not really knowing we can then start to put the same effort we have put into understanding our MLCer into understanding ourselves and our need for answers and how we can find peace from it all.

thats all

cheers
moment

[Velika]

An adverse reaction to a vaccine and MLC are two very different things. I have relatives, friends as well as my aunt boyfriend, who have had the whole lot of vaccines necessary for certain parts of the Globe, they are not having MLC. And my cousin who had MLC only had the standard vaccines necessary for Portugal, for a man his age (children now have more vaccines then we did when we were kids).

Velika, it is true that there is no way of knowing how a person will react to receives multiple shots at once, but there are many people who have got multiple shots at once and they did not had MLC.

So, as a cause/source of MLC as a whole, vaccines are, in my view, like strokes, they may have something to do with a specific individual MLC, but it is not possible to apply it to all (or even most) MLCers.

I agree. I think what I am likely witnessing in my husband is a result of a chemical imbalance with possible influence of SSRI. When I read your description of cortisol that made a lot of sense.

But, I think that if a person's "MLC" kicked off right after receiving multiple travel vaccines, I would suspect a possible adverse reaction, especially if this person seems to  be having a more extreme version or gets progressively worse. If the person took Lariam (which can trigger psychosis) that might be further evidence in these cases.

Vaccines contain many adjuvants, heavy metals, agents, fetal tissue, animal protein, preservatives, etc. and whereas some people may tolerate multiple vaccines easily, many parents have watched first-hand as their children have been transformed overnight by an adverse reaction to a vaccine. This is not to say vaccines cause MLC, just to say that vaccines in some individuals could cause a radical personality change similar to MLC.

Yes, mini strokes can have a different effect depending of the part of the brain they hit. Or the intensity of the mini stroke, but they cannot be the cause of MLC. It does not apply no all, nor to most MLCers.

You are likely right, but it is too bad we cannot do brain scans.

Not everyone comes out of MLC. Most people do. And sometimes people come out of MLC, but remain with the alienator for reasons of their own.

Do most people come out of it? I can't tell from this site, although I do think it attracts more extreme cases. When I read more general articles elsewhere it sounds way more temporary than what I read about here.

I think it may be easier to accept that your husband is having a MLC. That is what has happened to him. I tend to stick to hormones/brain chemicals, and possibly electric circuit imbalance for the cause of MLC.

Interesting, and yes I think you are likely right.

Regarding SSRIs, some people think they can lead some depressed people to bipolar. SSRIs seems to work well, or ok, for some people, and to have disastrous effects to others.

This is the only external I know of in my husband's case that I can point to. Again, I wish we knew more.

So my hope for you and myself is that at some point - once we have all finished dissecting the MLC - we come to find that we don't really know and that's OKAY.  That's all i was trying to convey - not very well it seems - so for me i think once we become okay to leave this behind and accept not really knowing we can then start to put the same effort we have put into understanding our MLCer into understanding ourselves and our need for answers and how we can find peace from it all.

Moment, I hear what you are saying. Maybe for some of us it actually brings a certain amount of peace to try to understand what may be going on. My husband was a caring, sweet guy who often expressed happiness with our life. He adored our little boy. I just can't accept and don't believe in his right mind he would suddenly run away, traumatize his wife and son, and choose to reduce his time to his precious child to just some brief evenings and weekends. I think it's precisely because people have always accepted this as just "how things go" that nothing is done to truly examine what is going on.

This is not just true for MLC but for many phenomena that eventually come to light as not inevitable but the result of specific events.

Anyhow, good discussion as always!

[a]

Hi
Anjae - I do not follow Freud/Jung and am completely ignorant of their theories – so you certainly made an assumption there that is not true and I guess this is what we all do - it does beg the question – are we not making assumptions ourselves about MLC – just a thought.  I mean science and mathematics make many assumptions for example we assume parallel lines never cross and based on this assumption we have built principles of geometry.  What if two parallel lines did cross at infinity?? Would that not result in a different set of mathematical principles??  I simply follow the idea that science does not have all the answers and that with new discoveries these answers change and paradigms shift.  In addition most scientific conclusions are based on subjective observation - you cannot separate the observed from the observer to me this is a wondrous phenomenon and something to be embraced – it shows that science is a creative process of discovery and should not be held back by absolutes.

I believe that our conditioning colours our experience and perception of the world as well as our basic value system and that is what i refer to as the unconscious - our basic internal values, projections and perceptions.  At times of crisis that is when our unconscious manifests in a big way and that is when our core belief system (for lack of a better word) either stands us in good stead or sends us down a path of self-destruction - and that’s what i was referring to in terms of MLCers and their belief systems/unconscious. 

My brother went through a severe depression in midlife - HE DID NOT manifest it by having an affair and acting out in a self destructive way.  He was aware and capable of recognizing that his inability to have feelings of love for his wife and children was not the norm for him.  At his worst he was capable of recognizing something was not right with him.  I do not believe my brother is the exception I think more people who go through midlife depression act contrary to what we have come to believe is typical of a MLC – as LBS’s we experience a different version of midlife crisis and this is what is reflected on this forum and in the media in general as typical of a MLC.  However my brother experienced a MLC, diagnosed as such by two therapists, and yet his ability to rise above his symptoms of discontent, anxiety, paranoia, grief, hopelessness etc and not act like the “typical” MLCer on this forum brings into question how was he able to react differently.  Instead he sought therapy, anti-depressants, meditation, running and yoga and of course to ride out the deep cyclical waves of depression he resorted to online gaming till the small hours of the morning - a far less destructive coping mechanism for his depression. Five years later he has recovered and has an amazing appetite for life and a more peaceful look on life – he no longer sweats the small stuff. 

I do not think that my brother is the exception – this forum is about the MLcer who bails and becomes self destructive.  We don’t typically get to see the MLCer who is more self aware – I was personally privy to my brothers MLC and that has obviously coloured the way I perceive MLC.  My question at the time was - What caused my ex to experience his MLC that is typical of this forum? and what caused my brother to react in a completely opposite manner?  The thing is that their MLC was experienced one year apart and I got to see these complete opposite behaviours.  Finally, I sat down and started to write down the family dynamics in my ex’s family and his childhood experiences and then I did the same for my brother.  It was like chalk and cheese.  And that is why my perspective about MLC has changed and I concluded from my subjective observations that how we react is in large part based on this inner core belief system, that is so much a part of us, we often don’t know what it really is until in times of crisis and that’s why it’s that unconscious part of us.  This core belief has enabled you as the LBS to take a more compassionate route, however there are just as many if not more LBS’s who have taken the route of recrimination, blame, hate and unforgiveness.  So what makes your reaction different to theirs?? For me it’s an inner belief system.

Of course I denied this perspective for a very long time I found comfort in the MLC theory on this forum to explain the poor choices ex was making.   But in the end I could not escape that I was being presented with the contrast between Ex and my brother.  I believe what made my brother’s reaction different to the typical MLC is his core values, his core belief system which enabled him to still have that voice of reason that told him something was not okay –  “That voice that said I should feel love for my wife and children, that the urge to cut and run is not what i really wanted deep down inside, that i must still have feelings of  love for my family only they are buried under an overwhelming sense of hopelessness” – his words not mine. 

The same can be said for something like postpartum depression – only woman who have psychotic episodes may land up killing their babies however psychotic episodes are very, very rare and not every woman who has one kills her baby so again what separates the woman who kills from the one who doesn’t.  And maybe the reason for my perspective, while very simplistic compared to discussion on this thread, is that it is based (like every other theory here) on subjective experience. 

In the end we all want the same thing to find closure – the thing is that at some point it has to come because I certainly do not want to still be here another 6 years down the line still focusing on ex while he lives his life to the best of his ability without any thought spared on his past – we all deserve to let it all go and move on – unless of course you have made a decision to stand then I guess you have a different course of action.

Take care
moment

[limitless]

Moment,

Very good and thoughtful post!

I certainly can't understand what makes an MLCer do one thing vs. the other.  It has been said that those who are more aware and do not run....experience an MLT (Mid Life Transition) vs. the MLC that many of us experience. 

I don't know if belief systems have an impact or not.  There are MLCers who had strong religious beliefs - who went against those beliefs and had affairs...abandoned their families.  While others, like my Ex, who had no religious belief systems - and did the same thing. 

I think it has more to do with the ability to cope with the feelings of depression and the willingness to talk to someone about those feelings (a therapist or advisor - NOT an OW/OM).  My Ex had no coping skills.  Running...addictions....and blaming others are the bulk of his "coping skills."

In MLC - they are said to become the opposite of what they were.  Going against their own belief system seems to be the new normal.

Again...this is just my own opinion, based upon what I have experienced and seen.

Very good discussion.

L

[Ready2Transform]

unless of course you have made a decision to stand then I guess you have a different course of action.

Yes, many here are standers.

I hope the end result is that MLC becomes acknowledged in the same way other disorders are. I hope that acknowledgment by the medical community can provide alternatives to the experiences we are having for others in the future, just like I hope more natural treatments and cures become the norm in the future for everything. The mentally ill used to just be put away and now we understand that's not proper treatment. We'll evolve with this too, I believe. Several here in this conversation are even members of the medical community, so their interest is really a huge step in the right direction, and gives credibility to these concepts.

But you and I have different beliefs on this, moment. I don't aim to change yours. We all must walk our own path. And self-healing vs. taking interest in MLC study are not mutually exclusive, as many of us exhibit. I am defensive of my fellow LBSs when it is suggested otherwise.

Love that oxytocin link, Hmmm! I know Anjae first brought up cortisol many discussions ago. I know I've got a link somewhere that talks about how when estrogen and testosterone are low, it's not the other that replaces it - it's cortisol - and this leads to an array of mental issues. Some MLCers have responded positively to testosterone treatment (not sure if any of the guys have chimed in about their wives taking estrogen replacement), but I know for mine his levels were in a healthy range when he was tested in 2010. More "umbrella" thinking for MLC, which I agree with completely. My dad always uses the comparison, where asthma and emphysema are different disorders, both fall under the umbrella of COPD. MLC is like that (in my mind). Which is why we all belong here.

[a]

Hi Limitless

Thank you  and yes maybe copying skills is the better term.  When i say belief system i do not mean a religious system i guess i keep using the wrong terminology - i guess i mean an inner value system - my brother and i are not particularly religious and in fact we do not follow a religion we were however raised in a less dysfunctional family with a stronger sense of doing no harm - we were raised to be kind but not because God said so just because it is one of the only real things you can offer another living being.  having said this as a family we had our ups and downs but the downs never pulled us apart and we tended to rally around each other.  Ex had a very different experience and i know he never really knew how to be supportive especially when the chips were down.

take care
moment

[a]

Hi R2T

accepted - we are on different paths - while i may challenge the norm it is not done to anger but rather to free the soul

wish you well

[limitless]

Hi Limitless

Thank you  and yes maybe copying skills is the better term.  When i say belief system i do not mean a religious system i guess i keep using the wrong terminology - i guess i mean an inner value system - my brother and i are not particularly religious and in fact we do not follow a religion we were however raised in a less dysfunctional family with a stronger sense of doing no harm - we were raised to be kind but not because God said so just because it is one of the only real things you can offer another living being.  having said this as a family we had our ups and downs but the downs never pulled us apart and we tended to rally around each other.  Ex had a very different experience and i know he never really knew how to be supportive especially when the chips were down.

take care
moment

Hi Moment,

I am the one who used the term "religious" values....all of us have an inner value system (even though, for MLCers, I would question this  ).  You are not using the wrong terminology.  I understood what you meant regarding belief systems.  It is just difficult to for me to understand how someone with ANY type of belief system could justify (within himself) how adultery and abandonment would fit into ANY belief system??!!??

Neither my Ex nor I are religious.  (In spite of the fact, just before BD, my Ex started going to Church!  This is so ridiculous - as, later, I found out that he had started going to Church to help convince OW#1 that she was actually is true wife (as they were married in the Church) and I was a 30 year affair!).  It is all so laughable now...how crazy is that?  Attending Church to persuade someone to sleep with you?  Did I say that I believe MLCers are crazy?

I think an MLCer either abandons his inner belief system and/or manages to justify how his actions fit within that belief system.  (Which is all part of MLC, isn't it?  Minimizing the damage caused, denying the responsibility, blaming everyone else?

It's all par for the course.

L

[a]

Hi Limitless

It is crazy??? and very confusing and like you i will never, ever understand how someone who professed to love you could be so deliberately hurtful and at times down right cruel - for me in the beginning it was such a difficult reality to accept because i had believed my ex to be kind and compassionate but that's the thing - i had seen him be unkind at times but i excused his behaviour and denied he was capable of being spiteful.  Maybe because this side to him only reared its ugly head on rare occasions.  I guess we are all capable of showing our darkest qualities but how dark these qualities become once again boils down to that inner value system which for me includes the ability to be empathetic. Do we ever truly see someone - when we love them we view them through the lens of love which often includes denial of certain traits we are unwilling to accept about that person. 

But at the end of the day all i know with any real certainty is that I don't know and will never really know.

maybe it's as simple as the following tale

An Old Cherokee Tale of Two Wolves

One evening an old Cherokee Indian told his grandson about a battle that goes on inside people. He said, ‘My son, the battle is between two ‘wolves’ inside us all. One is Evil. It is anger, envy, jealousy, sorrow, regret, greed, arrogance, self-pity, guilt, resentment, inferiority, lies, false pride, superiority, and ego.

The other is good. It is joy, peace, love, hope, serenity, humility, kindness, benevolence, empathy, generosity, truth, compassion and faith.’

The grandson thought about it for a minute and then asked his grandfather: ‘Which wolf wins?’

The old Cherokee simply replied, ‘The one you feed.’
https://wizdompath.wordpress.com/2008/03/05/an-old-cherokee-tale-of-two-wolves/


moment



 

[xyzcf]

Hi R2T

accepted - we are on different paths - while i may challenge the norm it is not done to anger but rather to free the soul

Moment you have used the word "offended" a few times because you have been expressing your personal point of view. This does not offend me in the least. This is how we learn.

However, you have also insinuated that somehow those of us who believe that there is a scientific basis for MLC are somehow not looking critically at our relationships. Comments such as:

 

so for me i think once we become okay to leave this behind and accept not really knowing we can then start to put the same effort we have put into understanding our MLCer into understanding ourselves and our need for answers and how we can find peace from it all.

its just that what I would like for all of you is that you move on to a place of acceptance that you invested yourself in someone who was not capable of doing the same for you – there is no real explanation or reason for it, it just is.  I truly hope you can all move on with your lives in peace and joy.

it is not done to anger but rather to free the soul

I am not in your shoes. I did not live your marriage. However, I am experiencing a good life, a rich and full life and an acceptance of the way things have turned out for me. Understanding MLC from a scientific approach has not hindered my growth in any way.

Perhaps it is because I am a nurse that I am interested in human behavior and what causes physical or psychological disorders. I, and others have often commented that if this was not happening to me and my family, I would find the whole concept of MLC rather fascinating.

I personally think that something "happened" to our spouses when they were very young, developmental, trauma and/or physiological that laid the groundwork for their crisis to occur several decades later. I personally also feel that there is a strong spiritual component in the destruction of the family on so many levels in our society and the general acceptance of divorce. We share, as you have shared your thoughts about what we believe, about MLC, about the world. One person's thoughts do not merit more than another's. It's fine for each of us to come to the conclusions that we do in order to experience growth.

Sometimes I think we feel that the LBSer must get "better" much faster than they do....I would say it took me 5 years to start to feel alive again, some will take less time, others will take more time but I do think that almost all of us will eventually come to a place of acceptance and peace. In nursing, I studied the term "homeostasis" which in simple terms is  "The tendency of the body to seek and maintain a condition of balance or equilibrium within its internal environment, even when faced with external changes."

However, homeostasis goes beyond physiological balance and indeed when looking at a person holistically also takes into account their psychological equilibrium as well.

During MLC, the person is certainly not acting as a "balanced individual" but the pendulum can certainly swing the other way, indeed the body will almost demand that it does to come to a state of homeostasis whereby things function more normally and perhaps more calmly.

So, understanding of MLC doesn't mean that I am stuck or not progressing. For me, the ability to reflect on causes of this crisis actually allows me to let go of any thoughts that I caused this or that somehow it is my fault. As well, and again this was my experience, I never saw a cruel or unkind thing in my husband, not towards me, nor towards others. Thus, I do not condemn him for his misfortune for having a crisis because understanding possible causes allows me to realize that this is not some random event. It is happening and he is not at fault for it (although many will disagree with me, these are just my own beliefs).

I am sorry if in any way you feel that I am not taking you seriously but I don't like to be put into a category of somehow being less than healed because I believe that the crisis has measurable and real biological causes.