[a]

Hi Kiki

I am so sorry for you and your boys suffering - i certainly was not trying to minimise anyone's experience of their MLCer's behaviour - i was simply offering a different perspective.  My greatest flaw i think is my naivety - unlike some LBS's here i refused to see the signs in terms of who my H actually was.  I was simply trying speak to those LBS's on this forum who like me may have been naive and in denial about who they truly married.

To finally be honest with yourself and see the wood from the trees is no easy journey.  it is filled with self doubt and a lack of confidence that you are able to perceive things as they are. And in the beginning it was so easy for me to accept some of the theories about MLC because to believe that my ex was depressed meant that i was not a failure to have married and invested myself in someone who was not who i believed him to be and who in the end was living up to his belief system nothing more nothing less

take care
moment

[Velika]

I do think MLC is an umbrella term. I think each LBS tries to examine as honestly and intelligently as possible what led up to bomb drop, as well as family history, external factors, possible medical issues. Likely you are right that something in the MLCer allowed them to cross a line. What tipped them over? This may be different for each person.

I think we have to look at clues such as how quickly our MLCer changed, if their overall personality and behavior is consistent with previous personality and behavior, and how consistently they behave post bomb drop.

In my case, I think that a person who is previously very calm, pragmatic, rational, good sense of humor who is suddenly running out of the house, making paranoid statements, and threatening to call the police -- something very serious is happening neurologically/psychologically. Many of these MLCers do not act in their own best interests, financially or emotionally. Their behavior to their children changes suddenly and radically as well.

I think through trial and error and an individual look at our own situation we can try to sense what we are dealing with and then respond in a way that feels healthiest to us.

[kikki]

I know some people come out of what we are calling MLC, but do all, really? When I read some accounts on this board I have to think that the person as their loved ones knew him/her is unlikely to return. This is very sad but I've had to think that I may just never know what happened to my husband.

Velika, the change in my MLCer has been so extreme, and BD was 6 years ago for me, that I too wonder if coming out of this and being anything like the person that he used to be is even a possibility.  I pretty much doubt it.
Haven't given up hope entirely, but it's no longer seeming all that possible, or all that likely.  This really is an enormously cruel disorder. (or cluster of disorders).
Only those who have witnessed such enormous personality and behavioural changes in their loved one, seem to understand our loss.

Moment, thank you for your words.  I can completely understand that this has been an enormous journey for you to get to this place of acceptance.  To realise that we may not be perceiving things as they actually are would be enormously challenging and disconcerting.  Keep going, you are on the right path.
I agree with Valika.  Each of us must examine and take apart our own lives and history, and deduce what is going on.  Each situation is unique.

[osb]

... Sometimes i think to try explain a MLCers behaviour via disorders like ADD and ADHD etc minimises a person suffering  who truly has these conditions.  All i was trying to say is that sometimes and certainly not in all cases, a MLC is just a man bored with his marriage seeking a do -over. nothing more nothing less and when we are bored and dissatisfied - we act out in ways that seem to indicate a psychological issue because their behaviour is so contrary to the person they have appeared to have been.  Please understand that this is not said to minimise that some MLCers may suffer psychological condition however these conditions would have been present prior to their MLC and not suddenly appear in MLC.

I think this is an interesting perspective, but really goes against what we now know about how the brain works. Psychiatric conditions are the product of many discrete changes in neurotransmitter function and brain pathways. You can get the same symptoms in completely different diseases - that doesn't mean that someone who's depressed and starts hearing voices has suddenly become schizophrenic, but that a non-schizophrenic individual can also suffer hallucinations by virtue of being depressed. Or to put this properly into context, someone who is undergoing MLC (which I'm guessing might be a form of dissociative disorder, or some other disengagement of the thinking frontal cortex from the feeling amygdala, resulting in a flight-or-flight resposne) can also present as having depression, or alcoholism, or a personality disorder, or some other biological mess. But unlike some of the latter messes, MLC seems to have a time-course and may revert to 'normal'.

I think it's not 'wishful thinking' to blame MLC on a suddenly dysfunctional brain. But what we LBS's do with that information will vary. Some will try to form and medicate the MLCer, some will walk fast away from them, and some will try to wait it out but protect themselves from the fallout. None of these are wrong approaches, it's just how each individual happens to perceive their choices.

[Ready2Transform]

Nodding to all. I think we've all reached common ground on this. It's a two-parter: what happened, and what do we do now that it has? Unique in each way, but certainly it's great to have support along the way for whichever path we take.

[xyzcf]

Moment stated:

Yes our hormones can sometimes get the best of us but really our hormones would never push us to behave against our unconscious beliefs, our own sense of right or wrong.   At the end of the day no mental anomaly other than a socio and/or psychopath would ever lead you to murder.  While this is an extreme example it is being used to illustrate a point which is no hormonal or other mental disturbance that is experienced during a MLC would ever make you do something that you would not have done anyway. 

I disagree with your statement. Indeed, in postpartum psychosis which occurs in 1% of all pregnancy's, a totally normal woman has been known to murder her own child. There is nothing in that woman's previous existence that indicated that she would do this, and the same woman, not experiencing postpartum psychosis would be horrified at what she had done.

I think as an LBS we are often in denial about a lot of things, we don’t want to accept that our Ex is capable of some of the things they have done and so we try to use logic to explain it – it makes us feel better that the person we married is who we thought they were – to admit that we may never have truly known this person seems so wasteful and it taints our memory of the moments we shared.

Understanding the pathophysiology of disease is an important way for the LBSer to heal and accept what has happened to their life. There are many theories and research and as with others things we can identify certain pre conditions that might have caused the MLC.

I have no doubts about the morals and values of the man I was married to for 32 years. The person he is now is not at all the person he was. So for me, acquiring knowledge about causation is the way to accept him as he is now without "blaming him" for something that is out of his control.

Bottom line we have to accept what is and not try to always find some kind of explanation – the truth is there is no explanation for unkind and deceitful behavior other than the person was always capable of behaving in this way not because of some chemical imbalance but because of their unconscious belief system (to them affairs, betrayal are to a certain extend acceptable) and thought patterns and therefore in their inability to be compassionate and empathetic - we just did not see it because our love was blind.

This may be true in your marriage but for many other people on HS, they were not blind for years of their lives. The do know what kind of marriage they had, other people close to them knew too and they did know who their spouse was. Many chemical imbalances will cause abnormal behavior. For example, Diabetics whose blood sugar levels drop too low may act and appear drunk. Low potassium can lead to muscle cramps, hypoxia (decreased oxygen) at high altitudes causes altitude sickness (headache, fatigue, loss of appetite, vomiting) and the list goes on and on.These are facts so why is it difficult to think that a chemical imbalance can and does cause symptoms that are totally out to the norm for any individual?

[Velika]

OSB and XYZCF, this is so interesting and helpful to read.

I think what you mentioned about postpartum psychosis is so important. I am following a thread on HS by a man whose wife had MLC. He, his doctor, therapist, support group, and her parents are all aware something is wrong with her.

His wife is behaving almost identically to my husband. Why, then, am I the only person in my husband's life who has tried to get through to him that something is wrong? (Don't worry ... I now know not to attempt this.) Why aren't his parents calling, concerned, or coming to stay with him?

Sadly, it's sexism. When a man abandons his loving wife and cherished child and the home he knew for years all of a sudden to run to the arms of someone he barely knows and give up everything, we somehow think he is doing what is natural to him.

This same sexism applies in the case of an LBS man, who may be forced to move from his home, lose his children, and his wife when she has an MLC.

I think it's great we're speaking up here, asking questions, pushing the envelope. I hope more people will start to question what we call MLC and share their honest stories.

[kikki]

I agree Velika.  It is sexism.  And when it becomes reduced to an affair and a bimbo, it just adds insult to injury.

I do believe that a large part of the reason that this has never been formally researched is because men are terrified to look at something that appears well beyond their own control. Far easier, to continue sweeping it under the carpet.

[Hmmm]

Lying awake here and just found a great description of MLC by a doctor who puts it down to the cortisol from stress counteracting oxytocin thus leading to disconnection.

She went through a tough time by the sound of it but is doing great now x

http://www.saragottfriedmd.com/why-do-i-feel-disconnected-the-cortisol-oxytocin-connection/

[Anjae]

Ready2, here we have a vaccines boletin. Some people do not have it in order, but for many things it is necessary to have our vaccines up to date. I think the only one for adults that here is necessary to take for your whole life is tetanus.

Several of those that Kikki mentioned Mr Bursty had are only necessary if we go to certain parts to certain parts of the Globe. Hepatitis B I think is given to kids now, but it is not mandatory to current adults.

I doubt vaccines have anything to do with it. Pretty much every single Portuguese has vaccines. Not everyone here is having a MLC.

And if vaccines did it, then everyone who has went to certain parts of the Globe would be having a MLC. That is not the case.

An adverse reaction to a vaccine and MLC are two very different things. I have relatives, friends as well as my aunt boyfriend, who have had the whole lot of vaccines necessary for certain parts of the Globe, they are not having MLC. And my cousin who had MLC only had the standard vaccines necessary for Portugal, for a man his age (children now have more vaccines then we did when we were kids).

Velika, it is true that there is no way of knowing how a person will react to receives multiple shots at once, but there are many people who have got multiple shots at once and they did not had MLC.

So, as a cause/source of MLC as a whole, vaccines are, in my view, like strokes, they may have something to do with a specific individual MLC, but it is not possible to apply it to all (or even most) MLCers.

Yes, mini strokes can have a different effect depending of the part of the brain they hit. Or the intensity of the mini stroke, but they cannot be the cause of MLC. It does not apply no all, nor to most MLCers.

Not everyone comes out of MLC. Most people do. And sometimes people come out of MLC, but remain with the alienator for reasons of their own.

I think it may be easier to accept that your husband is having a MLC. That is what has happened to him.

I tend to stick to hormones/brain chemicals, and possibly electric circuit imbalance for the cause of MLC. Vaccines and strokes are not something I would consider. ADD/ADHD, Bipolar (or any other mental illness) do not exclude a person from having MLC. OP's mother is bipolar and, if I am not mistaken, she had a MLC. How does MLC on a bipolar looks like? Try to multiply what we deal with by 10 000.

Yes, Moment, our genes can be changed. I don't recall the possibility of genes to be altered with thoughts, but I remember that the ambient we live in can change our genes. And it is known that negative thoughts can lead to depression, depression leading to certain chemical and hormonal alterations.

Negative thoughts alone will not do it. Only when coupled with a biological reaction, be it hormonal, chemical, or other. I'm not so certain the MLC behavior is tied to their unconscious belief system. That would mean that our MLCers unconscious belief system is a very nasty one. The other reason I do not believe that is because Mr J wrote OW1 that he had to break his values to do what he was doing (having an affair with her and wanting to leave, then leaving).

And unconscious belief system sounds like the sort of thing Freud and Jung would go for. Much I like Jung (I do not like Freud's work, nor do I find it very reliable), the unconscious applied to MLC is interesting from a more spiritual perspective, but does it not cut it neurologically nor biologically.

Yes, our hormones, and brain chemicals levels would make us do things against our belief system. It happens to people with Bipolar, especially in their manic phase. Or some people with hypothyroidism. Or think about addicts. Or like Ready2 said, schizophrenia or ADD. They are not choices.

In fact, a socio or a psychopath have different brain wiring than most people. Same goes for paedophiles. There is a reason why those people are considered mentally (and times also neurologically) ill. And the reason can be found in the brain.

Are you familiar with addiction and compulsions? If so, you know that those lead people to do things against their belief system. Every single day. Are you familiar with soldier behaviour in the battle field (in combat)? If so, you also know that often, because of the excess of adrenaline and other hormones, will also do things that are against their belief system and that, in the battle field (in combat) their brains change, and so do their hormones an their heart rate.

Stress alone can lead people to do many things that go against their belief system.

So, what you suggesting, Moment, is that we accept something that is not true. Most of us had spouses who were good people. Then MLC hit and they changed. That is why we know they are having a MLC. Otherwise we would not have notice a thing. When we meet our husbands they were not the OM in a one night stand. They were normal, caring, decent, good people.

As for acceptance in the way you were referring to, I think you are aware several of us here in this discussion are old timers. We have long moved from the sort of attachment newbies, and even mid timers, have.

We simply think that there is something far more than "oh, he/she just chose to do it". And we develop an interest for neuroscience, genetics, etc.

Regarding SSRIs, some people think they can lead some depressed people to bipolar. SSRIs seems to work well, or ok, for some people, and to have disastrous effects to others. Long before MLC Mr J had been depressed. The depression come from burnout. He as given Prozac. The Prozac drove him nuts and he had to stop. To my knowledge he never took a SSRI again.

There are other meds that may work better than SSRI in certain cases/with certain people. 

Hmmm, I vote on the cortisol (stress) for the main villain in MLC. Cortisol is an hormone, so, it goes back to my belief that hormones play a huge part in MLC.