[Thunder]

Ray,

I think everyone comes here for support.

We read a lot of the articles and LBS's stories and try to give our honest opinions/advice and also to vent our hurt feelings.
I think that is what this site is all about.
What may seem like an attack may just be someone thinking they are helping you.

Don't be too harsh with them.  They mean well and care about you.

I have always had compassion for my MLCer.  I have never called him names or talked ugly about him.  That's not who I am and my XH doesn't deserve that kind of treatment.
I also have never bad mouthed any one else's spouse.  That's insensitive.  They may be angry with them but they love their spouse.  I respect that.

My X is a good man.  I know he didn't deliberately set out to hurt me, but I do agree with RCR that we can still hold them accountable for their "choices."  Their not mentally incapable.
Ever MLCer has choices.  They just tend to make the wrong ones.

Yes, you are a defender of the weak and mentally unfit, but that's just who you are and there is nothing wrong with that.  You're a compassionate man.
Defend away!   

[in it]

OMG Ray That's not what I'm saying at all!

 I'm so sorry about your father. It was years and years ago and no one was aware..battle fatigue or shell shocked is what they called it. No one understood what these men went through unless you were one of them.
That scene in Patton was disgusting by most peoples standards.

I went to see saving Private Ryan ( my first "date" with the ex after the second baby was born) I sat there and cried through the first scene.  The horrors of war and what happens. I have no idea how men endured them. It does change them.

I'm tired of justifying myself and I'm tired of hearing that I'm "defending" my wife and I'm tired of having people who don't understand or believe in MLC continue to tell me that I shouldn't be "defending" my wife and to either insinuate or to come right out and say that this is her choice and her fault. It's ironic that my friends in Alanon seem to understand what my wife and I are going through when so many here don't. Does anyone read the articles portion of this site or do any research or do you just come here to express your opinion and vent your hurt feelings?

You are suffering and it's obvious.  Something about that IMHO is familiar to you. We would just like to see you a bit happier. Keep defending her if that makes you feel better.

And yes a lot of us are hurt, and we vent, we are human.and it does not make us any less understanding of what spouses, ex spouses, SO's  etc are dealing with.  We also realize we can't help them. So there is no one to focus on but ourselves.

I've been to Alanon..one of the steps is to realize we are powerless. Isn't that just a bit frustrating?

You are right, it's not her fault Ray, but her moving out and doing what she's doing IS her choice. No one came and forced her to leave or kidnapped her right? You didn't tell her she had to leave or anything right?Are you saying due to her condition she could not make a decision not to? That this condition has incapacitated her so much she made this decision against her own will?

You don't have a vindictive, vicious, abusive spouse. It makes it a lot easier to cut them loose if you do.It's not that Lbs's don't believe in MLC..IMHO it's just no excuse to treat people the Mler's were once married to and had children and a life with this poorly.

[gman242]

I meant no disrespect or harm whatsoever, myself, to ROS.

When I read your post, I read something eerily familiar in it all. You mentioned not contacting her, she contacts you frequently, but when she doesn't, it's hardest on you.

As in it was noticing, you're suffering and that right there, is suffering. Every contact you have with her is hope, without it, it's despair.

I do believe in MLC, I do believe in the process of it, but I personally don't believe there is anything noble about suffering, especially the sins of others.

My wife acts like we're still best friends, that we're even together sometimes and that OM doesn't exist. I thought I was alone here in this.. Many other people's MLCers rage, spew and are convinced that the OP is the love of their life and all they do is flaunt it. As in it was saying, that makes it all too easy to let go and detach.

With a W like yours and mine, it's nearly impossible. That's why it was the hardest thing of this for me to understand and that's why I also put so much hard work into getting beyond it. W isn't feeling the consequences of her actions because you're there when she wants you. She's not growing or healing and neither are you, because it's hard when you're apart and you're waiting for the next contact. 

I'm not privy to what goes on or is said between you, so you have to take that with a grain of salt. And also, nobody else can tell you what to do. But we all care and as there are many different people on the forum here, it all comes out in many different ways.

You can still stand, you can still understand, you can still hope and love, but you can also get off that cycle with your W. What's going to happen is going to happen, the process will work itself out one way or the other. But you can also just sit back and watch it and not ride the roller coaster. That is something you do have control over.

That's my advice in a nutshell, but as Levar Burton says, you don't have to take my word for it.. 

[Velika]

This  is bringing to mind an excellent article I recently read, "When his midlife crisis turns into marital terrorism" (https://debramacleod.com/mans-midlife-crisis-turns-marital-terrorism/)

The author does a fantastic job of drawing distinction between a true crisis and self indulgent, cruel behavior. I encourage everyone to read it.

Ray, I think you are 100 percent right that your wife is unwell, if not with "dis-ease" but (in my opinion) some type of poorly understood frontotemporal lobe issue. I don't think this is simply bad choices. Some people on this forum have also looked into this as a type of addiction. Like gman, though, I think there may have been clues in some cases that the MLCer had a personality disorder or anger issues or depression  leading up to it -- at least in some cases. (Not all.)

I am no contact for over a year. While I felt I had to do this given my own traumatized state, it creates a sense of unfamiliarity that I think further damages the relationship. I actually think if you are going to go no contact, the best time is right after bomb drop.

On the flip side, if you can manage to treat your spouse with a level of distance, it may help them as Gman writes (our posts crossed) your wife to feel consequences. Also, it is harder to monster at someone who you don't really have a connection to anymore.

 I went no contact due to extremely abusive behavior that I did not recognize as abuse at the time. I went no contact at about twelve months after about three cycles of abuse/manic state. I think that if I had not done this it would have been a repeat of the year before, abuse and power play and manipulation with overt cruelty and lots of blame, projection, etc.

However, I think if I had gone no contact immediately after bomb drop, I would be far ahead either now. Both in terms of my own healing and also in terms of having drawn firm boundary early on to prevent ongoing mistreatment.

In a way, our behavior is often addressed at two scenarios. One is that our spouse can and will recover and the other is that they cannot and will not ever recover.

You sound like an amazing person and incredible and thoughtful family member. I think you should feel confident to trust your own perceptions and feelings about how to best navigate in your situation.

[in it]

However, I think if I had gone no contact immediately after bomb drop, I would be far ahead either now. Both in terms of my own healing and also in terms of having drawn firm boundary early on to prevent ongoing mistreatment.

Perfectly worded V.

I agree with you I delayed my own healing and focusing on me and doing my own mirror work staying involved with him. Right after BD I should have shut the show down. And had not one thing to do with him. Staying in contact gave him opportunity to manipulate me. Then I would even feel sorry for him when he was abusive..."Oh poor him he's having a Mlc"..no he's  controlling miserable and abusive and always has been. After having time to look back and reflect.

Did way more damage to myself having anything to do with him.

I ended up totally traumatized this time- including physically.

And about any article I have read said when going through a break up/ divorce. Minimum 30 day NC right off the bat.

[heroIam]

Ray,

I think everyone comes here for support.

We read a lot of the articles and LBS's stories and try to give our honest opinions/advice and also to vent our hurt feelings.
I think that is what this site is all about.
What may seem like an attack may just be someone thinking they are helping you.

Don't be too harsh with them.  They mean well and care about you.

I have always had compassion for my MLCer.  I have never called him names or talked ugly about him.  That's not who I am and my XH doesn't deserve that kind of treatment.
I also have never bad mouthed any one else's spouse.  That's insensitive.  They may be angry with them but they love their spouse.  I respect that.

My X is a good man.  I know he didn't deliberately set out to hurt me, but I do agree with RCR that we can still hold them accountable for their "choices."  Their not mentally incapable.
Ever MLCer has choices.  They just tend to make the wrong ones.

Yes, you are a defender of the weak and mentally unfit, but that's just who you are and there is nothing wrong with that.  You're a compassionate man.
Defend away!   

Thunder, great advice.  Though I do get angry at my H for what he's doing (or not doing) - I don't like to badmouth him.  He doesn't deserve that.  No one does.  H is unconscious and hurting and looking outside himself to soothe inner pain.  I also don't agree with total NC.  I think it depends on your situation and who you are.  I think very dark is more suitable for my situation.  I don't have a monster, thank god.  Just a vanisher of sorts. 
Everyone needs to do what works for them. 

Ray, you sound like a kind, compassionate soul. That is a strength.  Don't lose that with all of this MLC business.

[Watcher]

I believe that I have empathy for my W. I do read everything that I can on MLC and I'm always reading RCR and HB. I'm frustrated with the MLC. Obviously I don't condone nor appreciate the way she is treating me.  The ultimate consequence that she will potentially have to face is losing me for good.

We both live in NC. My W is abusive and has rage towards me at times so NC works best for me. If I had contact she would be manipulative and abusive. I think her use of the Silent Treatment is by far the worse form of abuse. She is a control freak and makes sure that everyone is in line with her ideas and that includes our kids. Everything that I read about Psychological Abuse tells me that is what she utilizes against me. So I need NC for my survival.

As for deploying NC at BD, I believe that would have been difficult. In hindsight we would like to think that we could have utilized it a lot sooner. However, we were all emotional wrecks  at the time and probably were suffering the effects of PTSD. I could not even begin to describe the things that I did for my W during those first 2 months.

Now I did not feel like I owned NC until the start of month 22. It just took me that long to feel myself again unfortunately. Now it's really not difficult because she has her MLCer version of NC on me. Good grief, something like 650/735 odd days of our crisis has been spent in NC. Obviously, if we do want a relationship at some point, NC is going to have to end. She is going to have to figure herself out eventually  If not, I will be just as fine.

However, she is still one angry Monster at 25 months. Velika I did like the article and I agree, she is a Marital Terrorist. Maybe that's how I will refer to her in our next email exchange, LOL...I do agree Velika, the ongoing mistreatment does need to be halted and the sooner the better.

[Velika]

However, she is still one angry Monster at 25 months. Velika I did like the article and I agree, she is a Marital Terrorist. Maybe that's how I will refer to her in our next email exchange, LOL...I do agree Velika, the ongoing mistreatment does need to be halted and the sooner the better.

We can't let the terrorists win.

[in it]

I for one do not negotiate with terrorists.
And that article may helpful after first BD? ..just not quite blunt enough for me.
If it had read:
If you are getting no sleep, being verbally abused filled in on your ex's sex life with the ow by him.etc etc (I'd rather not go into.) Emailed and called on the phone.
If you are being stalked at work and at places you go to eat and hes generally being an @$$hole? End it by whatever means possible and do not go back.Slam the damn door and nail that sucker shut.
Sometimes you have to burn a few bridges so the crazies don't follow you.

[Thunder]

Watcher, there are certain cases where NC is the only, and best way, to deal with the situation.

Abuse is abuse, whether it is physical or emotional.
Both are equally destructive.  Broken bones or a breaking a spirit.

Your W has controlled every one around her for a very long time.  Your in laws and your boys are a product of this right now.
But you broke out of it.

I'm just so very proud of you, you see that control is not what you want anymore.  You should be able to have coffee in the morning.  Work out when you want to.

Equal partners, in every aspect of your marriage, is what you are now demanding.
It's really not too much to ask for.  That's what a healthy marriage is all about and you are not willing to settle for less.
Good for you.

There are no queens or kings here, just 2 people who work together and respect each other.
Only way it works.