[Savoir Faire]

Sounds like your H is seeing the light Mae, I hope he continues on the upward rather than the other direction

You've been at this a long time and have done very well despite not really knowing what was going on. 

I urge you to go back and read Stayed's  longer posts from the first pages, she made so much sense and it would provide you with some direction.  I admit I used to read Stayed's posts and sometimes say out loud REALLY???  And now I just say YES, YES YES!! 

She's been where you are and since I have been studying MLC for four years now and have a really good understanding, I know the importance of leaving them to their own crisis.  It is difficult when they contact, I think the ones who don't are better to be honest, stops all expectations and heart-string-tugging.

I hope he keeps up the counselling sessions and the medications help. I am always a little worried about the medications as sometimes they have a negative affect as the prescriber's don't see MLC as a 'thing' and are prescribing from a different perspective and often get the doses wrong as the MLCers description of what's going on differs from the real problem.

I do worry you remain in contact for the wrong reasons. It's a pity that hindsight is just that   I look back over my old posts and see a very desperate woman but we all have to do what we think is right.

[stayed]

I do worry you remain in contact for the wrong reasons. It's a pity that hindsight is just that   I look back over my old posts and see a very desperate woman but we all have to do what we think is right.

I do as well Savoir Faire, as so many of us think we KNOW our spouse.  The sad part, WE DO NOT KNOW this person.  This person who stands before us now... this is NOBODY we know, or ever knew.  Sure we saw some of these less then desirable traits throughout our marriage... BUT NOT ALL AT ONCE... we saw little bits of these things... heck, lets be honest, we all HAVE these traits but for the most part, they are kept under control. 

I think the greatest worry is when we THINK we have it all figured out.  Expectations are our greatest KILLERS! 

Hugs Stayed

[Mae]

Hi SF,

Thanks for visiting my thread.....I actually will go back and read Stayed early posts to me......I know those first few days/weeks were terrible...I was a mess. I'm glad I am in a much better place now......maybe you bounce back quicker after the third time.

Yes I tend to agree that no contact with the MCLer is a quicker path to healing. I vacillated over taking that route this time......it was a hard decision to reach but contact with H seems to be working for me this round, as no contact worked better the last round. I think it's because I know what I'm dealing with...the last two times I was clueless, we both know that my H has depression  and now my H has actively admitted to and is trying to manage it and get better. I do not believe he is going through MLC....although that may also be in the future.

So far we are on the same page with the current plan and the future plan. Current plan H is taking care of himself, working through the depression and all the issues that surround it. Future plan is for him to move back but the whys and wherefores and whens have NOT been discussed or firmed up yet. I have a timeline in mind but haven't discussed this with H, I am content to let things play out, no pressure from me, no R talks. He initiates contact and I don't try to set up times to see him anymore.

I am lucky that there is no OW to muddy the waters further, if there was....things would be different.

I am not standing still, I am taking care of my family, the house, going to work etc and trying to work on myself. I am taking all the opportunities I can to treat myself and enjoy my life right now.

I do get impatient. I do miss him a lot. I do think 'when will it be 'our' time just for us?' I need to wait, to be patient, to let time do it's magic healing work on both of us.

Can you be a bit clearer SF about your last point? I do worry you remain in contact for the wrong reasons. What would you suggest might be the 'wrong' reasons' for staying in contact with H?

HA....Stayed we posted at the same time....again any clarity about this last point would be appreciated!

[Mae]

EXPECTATIONS ~ I guess in remaining in contact with my H I do have them.

1. I have the expectation that my H will come home in time.
2. I have the expectation that my H will not begin a EA/PA with another person.
3. I have the expectation that my H is trying to sort out his issues.
4. I have the expectation that we will reconcile in the near future.

In having these expectations I am also aware that some or none of them may come to pass. My H may sort out all his issues and in the end decide he prefers to live alone or wants to explore other relationships.

I THINK I am ok with having expectations but also trying to be aware that things may change, that these are not set in stone.

This time away from H has been very good. I can manage very well without him, so I am secure enough in myself that if my future doesn't include him....I will manage, I have enough faith in myself and seen the evidence all over the board that attests to LBS surviving and thriving without their spouses.

It's finding that right balance between hope, expectations and preparing your 'plan b'.

Are 'hope' and 'expectations' interchangeable in this sense? It seems as though I could replace 'expectation' with 'hope' and still retain the meaning. I hope these things will happen but I also expect that they will as well.

[Savoir Faire]

Hi Mae,

Sorry I wasn't clear about the reasons.  At the beginning of crisis we all do things we wish we hadn't and I look back and realize I would have totally denied I was doing things I was actually doing.

After much soul searching I have found there are only a couple of reasons for any actions, or that our reactions come from two sources - 'Love' and 'Fear'  I worry that many LBS allow their husbands to cake-eat out of fear rather than love.  I denied being fearful and thought i was acting out of love.  Maybe there was a little of both but most was fear.  If I was going to be completely honest, I was fearful H wouldn't come back if I didn't do X or Y for Z and thought I actually had a part in that.  I had NO part in anything that involved his actions, none at all.  The wrong reason is actions due to fear and you are the only one who can answer if that's your catalyst.

You say you don't think your H is in MLC?  Could yo elaborate a little on this, it may help to sort your own head out a bit.  In the end it doesn't matter if they are in MLC or not but I would have a hard time forgiving someone who did all the stuff my H has done and not in MLC.  I actually think it would be near impossible to forgive his actions if they were not a reaction to his FOO issues and brain chemistry.  I would not forgive a cheat under any other circumstances and he would have to show true remorce for all he's done.

[Mae]

Thanks for the explanation SF...that is so helpful.

Are my actions in particular in maintaining contact with H and generally being patient, loving and supportive from a base of 'fear' or 'love'. That is a good question.

I think if my actions were from a base of 'fear' I would be doing things differently. Perhaps I would be trying to make contact with H (I don't, I only respond to his contact). Perhaps I would be trying to get him to discuss when he is coming home or if he still loves me (I don't even go there). Perhaps I would be trying to discuss his progress with his family or friends or trying to stalk him on facebook or by any other means trying to keep tabs on him (I have relinquished the option of spying on him or trying to gauge where he is at other than what I can discern when I have contact with him). In essence I think if my actions were from a base of fear I would be doing all I could to try and control the outcome....instead I have ceded control to him, this is his journey and only he is in control of it, definitely not me, I can support or suggest (which I do) but I definitely do not make demands of him or expect him to do any of the things I would like to see him doing.....he is willingly doing them himself.

Do I feel like he is cake-eating? Not really.....he came home once and then promptly bolted again. Is he popping in and out of home like he still lived here? Absolutely not in fact I think he feels displaced and shut out from home. Is he having his own 'woe is me pity party'......not really.....he admitted he was struggling in the beginning but he doesn't complain at all about his situation (and neither should he).....oh he did mention about his budget being tight....but he got no sympathy from me on that front.

I do NOT think he is having a MLC.....I think he is having another depressive episode. His first one was seven years into our marriage.....so he would have been around 29....with all the symptoms of depression (now that I can look back on it)....far too young for MLC....maybe quarter life crisis if there's such a thing. Then again at 36....still too young for MLC but this time did a runner....now fast forward to now, he is 40 (again probably too young for MLC, with none of the classic symptoms of MLC EXCEPT for depression....no replay behaviour, no OW, no monstering, no rewriting marital history, no blame, no anger.....just wallowing depression and even the wallowing has improved. All his symptoms fit the description of 'depression'  rather than MLC. He has improved a lot over the past few weeks being away, counselling and now taking meds for depression. It took around six to eight weeks for him to come out of depression the 2nd time. He is hitting the eight week mark now and I see signs of improvement although a ways to go yet as this episode has been the most severe and therefore will take longer to recover from. Also take into account the work once he is better to understand the triggers leading to his depression and all the rest of it...that could take quite a bit of time and he needs to work through it all before coming home I feel.

Depression is a terrible terrible illness, it devastates families and relationships. My H's relationship with his darling daughter is virtually non-existent now because of depressive episode #2 and #3....she couldn't forgive him for leaving us and for the hurt it inflicted on me. So definitely YES I think his brain chemistry is way out of whack.........what person in their right mind, who was loving the day before, the SAME day even can go from looking at you and saying 'we are in a funk' to suddenly dropping everything and leaving. I think counselling and meds are helping to get him back on track......FOO issues....oh yes he has plenty of those, abusive drug addled father who beat his mother in front of him, and beat him and his brother as well. Plus a genetic predisposition for mental illness (crazy runs in his family).....how I could miss the obvious I don't know...I feel so stupid now. FOO issues NEVER addressed.....he refused to talk about his childhood....just blocked it out.

SO how could you not be there for them?

[stayed]

In having these expectations I am also aware that some or none of them may come to pass. My H may sort out all his issues and in the end decide he prefers to live alone or wants to explore other relationships.

I THINK I am ok with having expectations but also trying to be aware that things may change, that these are not set in stone.

I can "get" your definition of expectations.  That makes sense to me.  I was a person that NEEDED my hope, or as you call it, EXPECTATIONS!  I was prepared to realize that my "hopes" might never be fulfilled, but at the time, I NEEDED them to get out of bed each day.  I also could sense that my NEED to grasp onto hope, was very slowly diminishing.  I was learning to accept while still hoping for the best.  Many people talk about not being able to do that, that they HAD to let go of hope, as HOPE was holding them back from moving forward.  I didn't have that feeling.

Hope is an essential part of my makeup.  When my father was dying of cancer, I HOPED the diagnosis was wrong, or that he would defy the odd's and somehow survive it.  It didn't happen.  In fact, he was gone in record speed.  That being said, I accepted it because I could SEE how uncomfortable he was, how much pain he was in, and I simply did not want him to suffer a day longer then he did. 

Personally, I think MLC is "depression"!  Your h to me, oozes MLC.  My greatest concern is the way he returns now and then, planning on staying over and then bolts.  I worry that with so many of these episodes that he will eventually determine that the CAUSE has to be you.  As when he returns, his anxiety starts acting up on him.  Depressed people I suspect, look for "outside" reasons for their depression, heck, don't we all!  For the record that particular behavior is SO MLC!  Your h has not decided yet about who or what is the cause of his depression.  That will depend on what his "counselor" is actually saying, or at least how your h is TRANSLATING what his counselor is saying to him.  Then again, as SF says, it really doesn't matter what you call this... MLC/depression, it is effecting you and your family... neither is a good thing!

Not all MLCers or depressed people have other people, but sadly, the vast majority do.  I cannot tell you how many people have come to this forum absolutely 100% convinced that their partner DID NOT HAVE A LOVER... only to discover, not only did he/she have a lover, they had had that lover for many, many years.   I am hopeful that your "expectations/hope" are able to accept that possibility, as ruling it out, could leave you with a horrible shock to deal with in the future, if you were to discover there is another person.  Sadly, many of us know what that feels like and we truly are hoping and praying that you will not have to experience this disillusionment! 

As mentor's, I often find it difficult as to how much I should or shouldn't say.  I want people to be prepared, but at the same time have generally found that nobody can really prepared for something awful.  Childbirth comes to mind, with that thought... nobody could have possibly prepared me enough for that... lol .  The good thing about that example.. WE ALL SURVIVED didn't we? 

My grandma always told me, "what did not kill me, would make me stronger"... I have found that to be the most truthful thing anybody ever told me.

Hugs Stayed

[Mae]

Thank you Stayed.

I feel I am similar that I need to have hope but don't feel as though hope is impeding my progress forward. Heck I'm not even sure I need hope....but it sure is nice to have.

My greatest concern is the way he returns now and then, planning on staying over and then bolts.  I worry that with so many of these episodes that he will eventually determine that the CAUSE has to be you.  As when he returns, his anxiety starts acting up on him.  Depressed people I suspect, look for "outside" reasons for their depression, heck, don't we all!  For the record that particular behavior is SO MLC! 


Stayed....THIS is also my biggest concern too that he will come to the conclusion that 'we' or 'I' am the root cause of his depression. I will need to have a discussion about this at some stage. What gives me hope is his willingness to come down and see us again even if he does get anxious after.....although it has been a week since our last face-to-face contact. He hasn't made any plans to see us this weekend so maybe next weekend. His desire to make his way home is also evident.

I'm dying to know what is being discussed at his counselling sessions.

Yes....the warnings about OW.....the first depressive episode he 'thought' he was in love with one of his workmates, because that was a 'dead end'  he moved on pretty quickly from that idea. I remember him not being able to articulate the 'cause' of his unhappiness. There was obviously something wrong and the first thing he did was blame the marriage 'we have grown apart, nothing in common' etc.......we hadn't, perhaps we had got into a rut, but there was plenty of loving, cuddles and closeness, I love yous, kisses morning and night right up until BD.....I was floored....had no idea. So right after BD he starts looking around for the 'external' cause of his unhappiness. He went to work, friend was there....he feels happy to see her....wallah he equates that feeling of being happy to see her with 'being in love' with her therefore that is why he is unhappy. Came home and told me he had figured out what was wrong, 'he was in love with someone else'....it's comical when I look back on it. For the record I do think he was infatuated with her....they were spending a lot of time together (as part of a closeknit group of friends), he was unhappy, had withdrawn from me physically and emotionally and was having an EA with his group of friends, all his energy emotional and physical was being poured into the friendships. When the depression started to ease, his ties to the group started to become less and less until he stopped going out altogether with them and the group broke up. Now only one of the group (I call him BF2) is still a good friend, all the rest.....no contact anymore. I always say he had an EA with his clique.....but really does that count? I'm feeling sad now after recounting my memory of that time.

None in episode #2.

None in episode #3....and I keep grilling him about it.

My H seems to be similar to Noex's, although Mr Noex is the poster child for wallowing depression...leaves my H in the dust. There is also no OW in that situation, although there was an early attempt by Mr Noex which again was a dead end. Neither of our WDs (Wallowing Depressives) seem to be attracting anyone.....thankfully.


I feel like Bipolared sometimes and her thread name 'Stop trying to make OW happen. She's not going to happen'....so NO OW....not even a smidgen. And I would be HUGELY shocked if there was one in the background. Now what I wouldn't be shocked about is if one pops up in the future. I'll deal with that if it happens and good to be aware of the possibility. But I can see that the MCLer and OP almost go hand in hand but not in my case.

I don't mind you saying EVERYTHING Stayed.....the warnings, the cautions, the 2x4s....it's all helpful.

I expect to get a call from H today, he has an appointment to see a rental property which is very nice and which I'm lining up to be our little 'love pad'......so I have a huge expectation there.....hope it doesn't blow up all in my face  ....seriously though I will only go there if I get invited....no pressure, no hints.

[beyondblessed]

Mae, what you describe in your BD2 is exactly how my xh "fell in love" with his boss.  We went from married 16 years in January 2016 to divorced July 2016 and yesterday I heard the love birds are now engaged.  lol. The funny thing is that her own H was working with them this whole time....and if they do marry, it will be #3 for her.  And like I mentioned, she met #2 at this same workplace.  She really loves her coworkers. .married or not.   

[Mae]

YEP...a workplace romance is the only way I could see H hooking up with someone else.

Your ex's boss sounds creepy like a workplace 'black widow' except she spits the partners back out when she's done with them.