[Bewildered]

Great thread and very interesting but IMO read below how you intervene and think this is IMO a combination of fate/god/time and learning from experiences outside of the LBS control?

Intervene as a group; well this could mean - you, and children + others (work colleagues/friends/strangers etc)- truth darts

But the most important thing O got from this is don't stop trying - but the timing needs to be right and the intervention needs to be done with honesty, calmness and control and you the LBS needs to know when to back off or keep the pressure on

So exhausting and worrying (can I do this, Can I get this right , Do I want to )
just thinking about it - so don't do this or attempt until you are fully detached and emotionally stable, let go of your Marriage (the old one) and be prepared to be let down, ignored, shouted at, criticised,  blamed, stone walled, the list of horrors is endless ...

BUT if you know 99% that you can do this - what have you got to lose - he/she has already gone, emotionally/physically?  If this was a person at work/neighbour and you thought you could help them you would try wouldn't YOU? and after you would feel exhausted but glad you have attempted to help them? and when it/if it makes a difference it was/would have been so worth it??

So treat your MLCer as a person needing help not your H/W be remote and detached and maybe we can make  a difference

what do you think??
 


Intervening When Sin
Is Destroying a Marriage

by Joe Beam, Family Dynamics Institute

This is the short version of the Family Dynamics Intervention Document. The complete version can be found on their website.

          Every marriage can be saved. No matter how bad it is, what has happened, or what is happening, every marriage is salvageable. Not just salvageable. It can be made wonderful and loving. Our nonprofit ministry, Family Dynamics Institute knows from experience that even those marriages that appear to be the most hopeless really aren't hopeless at all. God can do anything, including changing a relationship between two people who no longer even want the change. God still works powerfully in the lives of people and can salvage and make wonderful the most hopeless marriage.

     When a couple is at each other's throat, or when one or both are involved in behaviors destroying the marriage, the couple must be calmed; they must be moved back from the precipice before any constructive work can be done to salvage the marriage. No amount of explaining, lecturing, teaching, pleading, or anything else gets through to a person when he or she cannot think logically. The only way to reach the mind is to calm the heart.

     If the marital crisis exists because of an addictive sin practiced by either spouse, there must be intervention by people who have a relationship with the couple.

     What do we mean by addictive sin? We define it as repeated involvement with a person, chemical, or anything else that destroys the relationship between the married couple. The key isn't just that the behavior is repeated but that the repetition makes the marriage unworkable.

     When this kind of addiction -- to a person (adultery), to a chemical (alcohol or any other drug), or to anything else (such as gambling, spousal abuse, etc.) -- exists, someone close to the addict must intervene to stop the destructive behavior. The only marriages that cannot turn around and become what God wants them to be are those where one or both mates refuse to quit the sin destroying the marriage. When the sin stops, the right things can happen to create love and intimacy and commitment. Until it stops, nothing can save them.

Intervention -- Interrupting Addictive Behavior

     The good news is that intervention does work.

     The bad news is that church leaders often avoid intervention because the very need of it usually presents them with anxiety and apprehension. They often fear they don't have enough evidence, enough skill or training, or enough understanding of the situation. Not knowing what to do, they do nothing at all. It isn't that they don't care; the simple fact is that they don't know the pathway. The don't have a valid process.

     If there were ever a case where inaction is worse than the wrong action, this is it! We understand their fears, doubts, and apprehensions, but the most likely result of doing nothing is that the crisis will escalate and the marriage will end. If shepherds in the kingdom don't act, they can't expect anyone else in the church to act, either. If people God placed in positions of leadership step in to help the marriage, the power of God will be with them.

The Proven Process of Intervention

     In the early 1960s Vernon E. Johnson developed a model for intervening with chemically dependant people. People, even experts, believed things like: "You can't help someone until he reaches rock bottom" or "You know you can't help someone who doesn't want help." Johnson ignored those prevailing views and forged ahead. He felt that there must be a way to help people who don't want help. He realized that the chemically dependent person remains in that state only because he or she lives in a state of self-delusion. He reasoned that if a focused group of people could break through the alcoholic's or drug addict's rationalizations, they could bring him to a point of lucidity where he would recognize a need for help.

     The same principles for intervening also hold true for a person caught up in any sin controlling his or her life. Why? Because the same process of self-delusion occurs. At the very moment a person accepts that truth about himself, he usually accepts the path of healing offered by those who brought about the realization. That process works just as well with someone enmeshed in adultery or addicted to gambling as it does with a person addicted to alcohol or drugs. Break through the self-delusions and you have the opportunity to put the person on the path to recovery. To understand how that works, it is essential to understand the process of self-delusion.

     The First Phase of Delusion -- Rationalization

     Self-delusion differs from normal rationalization in that when a normal rationalization is confronted, "a dose of the facts is usually enough to bring him or her back through the rationalization to reality." But in self-delusion, "Every [inappropriate] behavior is rationalized away, and the person is swept further and further from reality and further into delusion . . . The intellect continues to suppress the emotions and defend against reason until the truth is buried beyond reach."[1] A kind of pathological mental mismanagement takes over.

     The person convinces himself on a conscious level that his actions aren't wrong, no matter what anyone says, but on the subconscious level something quite different happens. "His bad feelings about himself have been locked in at the unconscious level by a secure, high, and seamless wall of rational defenses. This is why he can believe what to everyone else seems patently unbelievable. Because of the wall, he cannot get at those bad feelings about himself. He is not even aware that they exist. But they are, nevertheless, chronically present in the form of a free-floating mass of anxiety, guilt, shame, and remorse."[2] Without intervention, those negative emotions lead to the next phase.

     The Second Phase of Delusion -- Projection

     The free-floating negative emotions caused by intense rationalization usually express themselves by attacking others. The most vitriolic attacks typically aim themselves at anyone who tries to convince the sinner that his or her actions are sinful or that he or she should stop the behavior. He quickly assigns them evil motives and/or evil actions and responds emotionally in proportion to the threat he perceives from them.

     While these projections appear to be mean and spiteful, the self-deluded person sees them as vindicated and just. Just as rationalization must be an unconscious act to benefit the self-deluded, so must projection.

     The Third Phase of Delusion -- Repression

     The sinful behavior controlling the person tends to escalate during Phase Two. She sticks to her arguments and justifications for her behavior but they aren't enough anymore. She has to find a new way to cope with her sin. Without awareness of what she is doing, she moves into Phase Three -- Repression.

     "They continue to rationalize some of their behaviors (those they can bear to face), and they repress those they cannot rationalize."[3] Every action he or she can no longer justify now just disappears from memory. The "amnesia" comes from completely psychological origins. She chooses not to remember, but the choice isn't made with the conscious mind; it's made in the subconscious. She's keeping herself from facing her own contradictions.

     The Fourth Phase of Delusion -- Altered Memory

     If one can convince himself that his spouse has always been a bad mate, or that life has been a man-made hell for years, then it's easy to rationalize that leaving that spouse isn't a sin; it's survival! A person in Phase Four doesn't alter memory about just the distant past: they've reached a stage of self-delusion that alters memories of things that happened recently. It's the next logical step after Repression. If he can't forget an act, he alters the interpretation of what happened so that it justifies the act.

     It's not important that you understand all the nuances of self-delusion but you must grasp the two basic points we made about them. First, the self-deluded person is incapable of extricating him- or herself from the controlling sin. Second, you should not let the addicted sinner's rationalizations and defenses cause you to lose your focus during the intervention.

Deciding to Intervene in the Delusion

     The key is to act NOW. Every day you wait makes the situation worse, allowing another phase of delusion to take over or to become stronger.


Performing the Intervention

     In its simplest form, intervention is presenting reality in a receivable way to the person out of touch with it. Intervention breaks down the defenses long enough for truth to shine through.

     Presenting reality means presenting specific facts about the addicted sinner's behavior and the consequences that have happened or will happen because of that behavior. The intervention must be objective, unequivocal, and caring. While intervention is confrontational by nature, it isn't punishment.

     Intervention involves six steps.

     First, Gather the Team

     Recruit a group of three to five strong team members. Each team member should have some type of relationship with the addicted sinner that is being negatively affected by his or her actions, must be willing to risk the relationship with the addicted sinner, and have specific knowledge of unacceptable behavior on the part of the addicted sinner or specific knowledge of a negative consequence the addicted sinner will face if he or she continues to pursue the sin.

     Second, Gather the Data

     The intervention team must be prepared to convince the addicted sinner of his or her sin. The information with which to confront him must be specific incidents or consequences that will cause him to admit -- even momentarily -- his sinful behavior.

     First present him or her with evidence of the sinful behavior. Everything must be in unsparing detail. "I saw you kiss her" instead of "I thought you were being a little too familiar."

     Second, present him or her with the consequences that already have been or will be if the person continues in this behavior.

     During the rehearsal each member reads each of his or her statements aloud to the group. The group either approves or amends the statement. They make sure that every written statement is devoid of antagonism, generalizations, and subjective opinions.

     Take turns playing the part of the addicted sinner, responding to the group in every possible way that you can imagine the real addict might respond. With each reaction from the "sinner" the group discusses and decides what their best response to that dodge should be and who should make it.

     Fourth, Finalize Details

     Decide the date, time, and place for the intervention. Decide who will get the addicted sinner there and what method he or she will use. Know who will go first, who follows, and the like. Know who will give each response to anticipated reactions. Know who will give the response to any unanticipated reaction. Set every detail and then make them happen.

     Fifth, Do the Intervention

     Do the intervention just as rehearsed.

     Of course, the prayer that went into the preparation for this meeting will bring the wisdom of God, as He promised. Bathe the process in prayer from beginning to end and the results should be that the person finally has a moment of spiritual lucidity.

     Sixth Step, Be Willing to Do It Again

     If you recall that the person is addicted to sin and that the sin so controls her that she isn't thinking clearly, you won't let yourself become too discouraged by apparent failure. If the intervention fails to get the addicted sinner on the path to healing, reconvene the team and do it again. Gather more data -- both of actions and consequences -- and give it another try. If that doesn't work, try it again.

     Keep doing the interventions until the person starts the path of healing.

[Trustandlove]

My feeling is that the intervention probably has to come from someone other than the LBS; perhaps a clinging boomerang would listen to the LBS, but it seems to me that in cases where the MLCer (or whoever else) doesn't fear losing the LBS then that person would have no clout.  Clout is important; the intervention IMO needs to come from someone the MLCer respects.

Adult children might be candidates, but rarely younger ones, as they are too entangled emotionally.    If all team members need to be willing to risk their r with the person, children rarely are, and younger ones shouldn't be made to choose.  IMO this is only appropriate in cases of severe substance abuse, etc. 

In theory if the LBS really can treat the MLCer as if they were a person that needed help rather than their spouse it might work; the LBS would have to be completely independent IMO, financially as well as otherwise....   

But the theory is good, I think; I also think, like Bewildered says, that it is a combination of fate/god/timing, etc.  It is somewhat beyond the control of the LBS simply because we can't know what else is going on in their lives, all of which will have an impact. 

I remember back many years ago when I was behaving badly; no one every attempted a "formal" intervention, but many tried to say things; it was the one friend who kept on doing so that eventually made an impression, but my coming out of it still wasn't directly due to that. 

I know that with my alcoholic father a formal intervention was done, which did result in him getting help; with an alcoholic friend of my brother's it had no impact 5 years ago; earlier this year he did agree to seek help, but still wasn't willing to do the work needed himself.  So with him it will take a lot more.

And with my father, he is now also doing some things which result in a fractured family (not adultery), but absolutely doesn't think he is doing anything wrong so won't listen one iota.  Mainly because the person he cares most about doesn't feel there's a problem. 

So, sorry about the long-windedness, I do think it comes down to the person/s doing the intervention being ones that the "sinner" for lack of a better word really respects.

??

[justasking]

Performing the Intervention

     In its simplest form, intervention is presenting reality in a receivable way to the person out of touch with it. Intervention breaks down the defenses long enough for truth to shine through.

     Presenting reality means presenting specific facts about the addicted sinner's behavior and the consequences that have happened or will happen because of that behavior. The intervention must be objective, unequivocal, and caring. While intervention is confrontational by nature, it isn't punishment.

     Intervention involves six steps.

     First, Gather the Team

     Recruit a group of three to five strong team members. Each team member should have some type of relationship with the addicted sinner that is being negatively affected by his or her actions, must be willing to risk the relationship with the addicted sinner, and have specific knowledge of unacceptable behavior on the part of the addicted sinner or specific knowledge of a negative consequence the addicted sinner will face if he or she continues to pursue the sin.

     Second, Gather the Data

     The intervention team must be prepared to convince the addicted sinner of his or her sin. The information with which to confront him must be specific incidents or consequences that will cause him to admit -- even momentarily -- his sinful behavior.

     First present him or her with evidence of the sinful behavior. Everything must be in unsparing detail. "I saw you kiss her" instead of "I thought you were being a little too familiar."

     Second, present him or her with the consequences that already have been or will be if the person continues in this behavior.

     During the rehearsal each member reads each of his or her statements aloud to the group. The group either approves or amends the statement. They make sure that every written statement is devoid of antagonism, generalizations, and subjective opinions.

     Take turns playing the part of the addicted sinner, responding to the group in every possible way that you can imagine the real addict might respond. With each reaction from the "sinner" the group discusses and decides what their best response to that dodge should be and who should make it.

     Fourth, Finalize Details

     Decide the date, time, and place for the intervention. Decide who will get the addicted sinner there and what method he or she will use. Know who will go first, who follows, and the like. Know who will give each response to anticipated reactions. Know who will give the response to any unanticipated reaction. Set every detail and then make them happen.

     Fifth, Do the Intervention

     Do the intervention just as rehearsed.

     Of course, the prayer that went into the preparation for this meeting will bring the wisdom of God, as He promised. Bathe the process in prayer from beginning to end and the results should be that the person finally has a moment of spiritual lucidity.

     Sixth Step, Be Willing to Do It Again

     If you recall that the person is addicted to sin and that the sin so controls her that she isn't thinking clearly, you won't let yourself become too discouraged by apparent failure. If the intervention fails to get the addicted sinner on the path to healing, reconvene the team and do it again. Gather more data -- both of actions and consequences -- and give it another try. If that doesn't work, try it again.

     Keep doing the interventions until the person starts the path of healing.

Is this based on WAS or MLC or both? My major concern for this is that it appears that we can all get our group of people together and then tell the MLCer all their sins until they repent.

If you are a newbie then you are a long way from this place and need to learn about MLC and detachment. There is no easy path through the tunnel it takes time, patience and detachment.

Even as a seasoned LBS (not sure if I can call myself that lol) I am sceptical about this intervention. We are told to detach and let go. But this goes to the other extreme of gathering your friends to intervene. IMO you wouldn't see the MLCer for dust.

Follow your intuition to the letter it will never let you down. Hand your MLCer over to God/Universe and get out of the way i.e detach, let the rope go, get on with your life. When the time is right you will know what to say and when to intervene. And it isn't always us. Other people in the MLCers life also have a potential role to play, when the time is right.

IMO the intervention part gives the impression that you can move your MLCer along and out of the tunnel. If it doesn't work the first time then do again and repeat until it does. Well it might help but what you don't want is an MLCer coming home to soon before facing the necessary issues and then disappearing at a later date. If YOU felt it was right to intervene and your MLCer is still in replay then that gives them further justification to run in the opposite direction.

Our MLCers have to heal and continue on their journey. I follow my intuition closely and it hasn't let me down yet. My children have intervened when they think it is right. The structure of the 'intervention' as identified sounds to structured and to organised plus manipulative. No one knows from moment to moment what our MLC has in their heads. I agree if  by chance an MLCer starts to talk to you then you have an opportunity. But otherwise I think each MLCer is so individual that detaching and acting on your own intuition is the only way forward plus truly getting out of the way of the process.

[MLCwife]

Is this based on WAS or MLC or both? My major concern for this is that it appears that we can all get our group of people together and then tell the MLCer all their sins until they repent.

If you are a newbie then you are a long way from this place and need to learn about MLC and detachment. There is no easy path through the tunnel it takes time, patience and detachment.

I think this might work for a plain old affair, or maybe some other addiction.
But what about the MLC'er that has not done any sinning or just plain wants out of the marriage?
Is that a sin to want to be divorced with no other divorcable offense?
What we see with most MLC's is that nothing that anyone else DOES makes any difference.
Only when the MLC has run its course can some sort of action be taken.
I think that JUST ASKING is corect in what she has stated above.

[Covenant for Life]

Yes, it is a sin to "just want to be divorced."  God hates divorce - hates it!!  Go read Malachi 2.  That person is violating the marriage covenant, breaking a life-long vow to God and to his/her spouse, abandoning his children, destroying his/her family unit, the list goes on!  And, all of it is sin, brought on by the unbelievable selfishness of the MLCer.  God will just not allow that MLCer to experience permanent joy, peace, happiness, and love when it was obtained by leaving others' lives in shambles.  God may allow the MLCer to temporarily think they are happy for a season, but in God's time, all will reap what they have sown.

Just wanted to say that one of the reasons the world's divorce rate is so high is because so many think that it is NOT a sin to just want out of a marriage.  So many think marriage vows are no big deal.  Well they are to God and what you or I think will not matter one iota when we stand before our creator. What God thinks is what we will be judged by.   God makes it clear in his Word what his will is for marriage and he hates - absolutely hates - divorce.  And so should you and I.

[Faith]

I would have never been able to assemble 4-5 people willing to do this who had a relationship with H.  My friends and family would have been willing and eager to help, but H has surrounded himself with people who will encourage him to go "be happy" and cut off contact with those who disagree with his new value system.  As the article said, I have found the men of the church are too afraid/hesitant to get involved and instead stand back and "pray" for the family as it's torn apart.

It's a method that could be worth trying, but I bet finding a LBS with a group willing to get involved in this way is very rare.

[Mitzpah]

Faith,

I so agree with you!

I bet finding a LBS with a group willing to get involved in this way is very rare.

That is why I think the intervention must be Spirit driven and we (LBSs) are to be in the prayer closet - that is where battles are won...
Jesus, help us

[Bewildered]

Truth, Lies and Self-Deception
None of us are beyond deceiving ourselves.
Published on November 30, 2008 by Dr. Stephen A. Diamond, Ph.D. in Evil Deeds

Folie a deux is an idiomatic French expression meaning "craziness of two." This fascinating syndrome is referred to diagnostically in the American Psychiatric Association's DSM-IV-TR as Shared Psychotic Disorder, one of several types of psychosis. How common is this condition, what causes it, and what can it teach us about the nature and perils of self-deception?

A delusion is, by definition, a psychotic symptom: a fixed, false, irrational conviction not comporting with objective reality but clung to vehemently nonetheless. Shared Psychotic Disorder refers to the onset of such a delusional state of mind in someone as a consequence of close relationship with another person already suffering from psychosis. Yes, in this sense, psychosis can be communicable. This relatively rare mental disorder illustrates two vital truths: Psychosis--contrary to the conventional mainstream view--is most often not merely the manifestation of biochemical aberration or a "broken brain," but a fundamentally psychological phenomenon. And, as such, it demonstrates the dangerous degree to which the human mind is capable of massive self-deception. It proves the awesome power of psychology.

None of us are beyond deceiving ourselves. Such self-deception, which in its most extreme and pathological forms we deem delusional, is much more pervasive than most imagine. Consider the ordinary example of some heated conflict with a spouse, lover, relative or close friend. How is it that after the fact, each participant can have a completely contradictory version of what happened? Objectively speaking, first A happened, then B occurred, then C was said, D followed, etc. But what if the objective facts or our own behavior don't comport well with how we see ourselves? We distort the facts to support our particular point of view and to sustain our beliefs about the kind of person we are or want to be. When the objective facts threaten the ego and its integrity, we experience what social psychologists call "confirmation bias," a kind of cognitive dissonance known more recently as "Morton's Demon." We dismiss certain facts incompatible with our myth of ourselves in favor of other less threatening and more corroborative ones. We twist the truth. And we become convinced of the veracity of this twisted truth. And we do all this unconsciously. We don't even know we're doing it. This goes beyond mere "cognitive distortion," resulting in a radical rewriting of history and reality for the purpose of preserving our precious self-image or persona. In its most extreme form, such self-deception can lead to certain delusional beliefs symptomatic of psychosis. This illustrates clearly the powerful unconscious cognitive component of psychotic disorders of various kinds.

Take the current Casey Anthony case (see my previous post). Casey Anthony is charged with the first-degree murder of her missing two-year-old daughter, Caylee. From the start, Casey has denied any culpability, claiming steadfastly that her daughter was abducted by her babysitter. Is this the objective truth? Or is it a lie? If it is a lie, is it a conscious lie or an unconscious one? In other words, does Casey know she's lying? Or does she actually believe the lie? If she turns out to be completely convinced that the lie is true, is she really lying? Or is she telling the truth as she sees it? If the latter turns out to be the case, then Casey could be considered delusional. From a forensic psychology perspective, this could conceivably become a key component of her legal defense.

But what of Casey's parents, especially her mother, Cindy Anthony? Both seem convinced that Casey did not harm their granddaughter and is telling authorities the truth. Is this a conscious show of support and solidarity for their daughter, an effort to protect her from abandonment and prosecution? Are they lying? Do they speak of Casey's innocence outwardly but inwardly believe in her guilt? Or are they lying to themselves? Denial is a potent form of self-deception, an unconscious psychological defense mechanism designed to ward off unacceptable or inconvenient truths. Could Casey Anthony's parents be, perhaps like her, so deeply in denial that they have introjected their daughter's delusional belief about what happened, becoming enmeshed in a folie a trois?

While such cases are extreme, this sort of symbiotic dynamic is present in most relationships to some extent, with partners regularly entering into and supporting the subjective reality of the other. Even when that necessitates deceiving themselves to do it. Evidence of this can be commonly seen in co-dependent relationships in which the severity of abusive behavior or substance abuse or mental illness in one person is minimized by the other. This insidious self-deception occurs not only in couples, but in families, friendships, groups, religious cults, political parties and entire countries. Cognitive dissonance leads us to disregard or negate all that could contradict our cherished self-image or insult our personal or collective narcissism. So the truth we see is highly selective, serving to reinforce primarily our experience of ourselves as good, kind, honest, religious, spiritual, loving, etc. Or, in some cases, confirmation bias or Morton's Demon can even lead to the rejection of positive qualities which seem incompatible with one's deeply entrenched negative view of oneself, thus destructively perpetuating it.

Interestingly, when the individuals in a folie a deux are eventually separated, the person who adopted the other's delusional beliefs typically no longer exhibits psychotic symptoms, while the original and more dominant delusional partner (the "inducer" or "primary case") remains psychotic. Why is that? It is due partially to the fact that the person who takes on another's delusional system is somewhat more psychologically intact compared to the inducer to begin with. Therefore, when removed from the delusional inducer's direct influence, they no longer fully partake in nor endorse his or her distorted subjective reality. Indeed, they may have passively or even lovingly joined with the other for the sake of solidarity and support in his or her delusional version of reality precisely so as not to abandon or be abandoned by the other. A concrete illustration of this dynamic can be seen in cults of various kinds, in which passive followers fanatically internalize the charismatic leader's grandiose and paranoid delusions. Think Charles Manson, Jim Jones, David Koresh, Adolf Hitler, Osama bin Laden and others. If and when susceptible followers leave the cult, these symptoms tend to diminish over time.

In truth, we deceive ourselves about a great many matters, from bad behavior, to how we feel, to the ever present existential fact of death. Such self-deception is fundamentally related to Freud's broad conception of the unconscious--the unknown aspects of our psyche--and specifically to Jung's notion of the shadow: those unacceptable traits and tendencies in ourselves we hide from both others and ourselves. This very capacity to deny our own selfishness, fears, cruelty and complicity in evil-- unconsciousness-- is itself a treacherous sort of self-deception. Which is why growing gradually more conscious during the course of psychotherapy can be a shocking, painful and sobering process. C. G. Jung noted the therapeutic importance of consciously tolerating the "tension of opposites" we today term "cognitive dissonance," and that such unadulterated confrontation with the truth about oneself is almost always initially experienced as an insult to the ego--a devastating blow to our narcissism. No wonder we so fervently resist this process. It takes considerable courage and commitment to be brutally honest with oneself. But it is precisely this willingness to stop our chronic self-deception and face the truth that finally sets us free.

B xx

[nuthutbuddy]

Told my H today that i cannot see him anymore. His response "thats a bull#*@% move, ill see you thursday when i pick up d16!" Major delusional thinking! He moved out sept 2011, lies with ow and her 3 kids. Been playing cat and mouse with him. No more no more! Does not live in reality which is my fault but finally ready to give a major dose of reality 101!

[Writingmom]

This was very helpful insight!  Thanks for sharing.  The delusion bug has bitten many men in midlife around here, not necessarily those in crisis.  This helps to take the frustration out of the equation because any way you look at their "logic", it doesn't add up.  But oh how convincing they can be.

Thanks again.