Midlife Crisis: Support for Left Behind Spouses
Archives => Archived Topics => Topic started by: 1trouble on April 26, 2019, 11:05:20 AM
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When I first joined this site I remember seeing discussion threads dedicated to discussing the OM/OW.
I also devoured anything I could get my hands on, here and elsewhere, about not only MLC behaviours BUT the OW/OM dynamic.
There were LBS's openly discussing their experiences and thoughts about the OW/OM.
Some of the threads were serious, some slightly comical, I learnt a lot from those threads and others.
In REAL LIFE, MLC is not understood, even derided and so all of us have found it hard to talk openly about what has gone on, or is going on, because people in RL don't understand and we run the risk of sounding crazy ourselves, with some of the MLC behaviour we have to deal with.
So this discussion board has to be a place of safety and somewhere, where we know we wont be judged.
Today I have read comments that I feel may stifle this openness...…..comments saying things like 'not to focus on the OW'....
how 'name calling is wrong'.....
Why is it?...........who says it is.?.........Its my opinion that you have to get to a point of acceptance and detachment and to do that you have to understand and that may mean going round and round talking about something until you understand it. It may mean name calling and venting and anger, but why is that wrong if it helps someone to get it out there...…?
No-one is calling YOU names so relax and let them vent...….I have seen plenty of LBS's over the years with very derogatory names for the OW/OM....so what!
Also for some their OW/OM is a constant in their lives because of children, they may be being baited by an OW/OM......they maybe relatively new to this, they maybe struggling with self esteem issues.......part of sharing and talking helps......
SO lets accept everyone is different, if this thread isnt your bag, dont post here...…….leave it to the people who need to post..
we all are different with different situations and we all heal in different ways and we all have different coping strategies and some will heal quicker than others.....and some will have absolutely nothing to do with the OW /OM and some have to deal with them a lot because they have kids and some will have to deal with the OW/OM because they are trying to drag them into the drama.
This thread is for those people...…..focus and discuss all you want.....if this thread dies without anyone posting on it, then maybe I misunderstood the need for it.....
But if you feel the need to rant, name call, compare notes about OW/OM do it. if you want to give guidance/support to others in your situation or a similar situation, pass on your experience of what worked for you. etc etc....
then use this space to do it and I hope others let you without judgement......because years ago on here thats exactly what would have happened... ….
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YAY! I love this thread!
Because I have been personally derided by people for calling OW a hooker, et al. Well, this homewrecker only appeared after XH became a high-powered executive, earning over $300k a year. Would she still have been interested when he was 23, and BROKE?!?
Sorry but if you can't vent here, you can't anywhere. And I just call it like I see it.
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Here are a couple of the old threads too for anyone interested
https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=30.0
https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=1454.0
https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=423.0
https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=1593.0
https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=1859.0
https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=1946.0
https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=2088.0
https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=2649.0
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comments saying things like 'not to focus on the OW'....
how 'name calling is wrong'.....
The "basics" of understanding MLC is that it is not about the LBSer and not about the marriage.
The OW/OM is part of the crisis and most MLCers have this in common. But they are not to "blame" for the crisis.
The problem with venting our rage/anger and hatred towards the OW/OM is that this takes the focus off our work that we need to do to heal.
The idea of this thread, to allow a place to vent and "scream" makes me think of mob mentality...to whip everyone into a frenzy of name calling and hate...that's what I see name calling..hate.....
Is Hero's Spouse a place of HATE or a place of healing and growth?
If you need to vent in this way, perhaps a personal journal is a more appropriate place to let out your anger and rage, or a gym or going for a long walk....MLC is going to last for a long, long time....the LBSer gets to choose how they will spend that time. Spending it condemning the OW/OM and calling him/her names will increase the biological stress responses that are already in overdrive in your body, causing physical and emotional harm.
I'd rather see people use other techniques to calm their nervous system so they can go about life and securing their financial and legal issues in a calm and efficient matter. Spending that energy into being a single parent to their children and showing our children how we handle difficult situations...without name calling which to me is a violent act would be much healthier.
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I'm here and I'm going to post something I'm sure is going to get attacked.
I'm one of those people who has really struggled with the OW. I don't say too much about it on my thread because I will get the usual don't focus on her, don't hate her, don't name call her, forgive her, she's a person with problems, well she's the person who contributed full on to blowing my world up.
I don't vent here about it, because I'm scared to but when I talk with some LBSs privately, I let them vent and I vent too. You know what, I feel better afterwards. If I'm to say that I'm ok and don't care one bit about the OW, that she means nothing to me, that she's below me, that I'm superior, I would be lying. I hope to reach that place one day, but I'm not there yet. I still hate her with all my guts because she knew what she was doing.
I am still doing my mirror work and focusing on my future, but my feelings are my feelings.
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Well, Milly, your H's OW is a special brand of evil.
BUT what I see from you is you living your life, working on yourself, moving forward and growing.
I think your feelings about OW are valid and I think xyz's concern for people is also a valid one. Most of the time, when people say they are concerned about those who have too much hate for the OW/OM, it's directed at people who blame the OW/OM almost totally for the affair, as if the OW/OM used some kind of witchcraft to lure their spouse away. Or they are so consumed by rage and anger, they can't get started on GAL and moving forward. They get stuck in a cycle of hate and anger and stay there so long it's detrimental to them.
In reality, at a certain point after the initial pain and anger of learning about her existence, the OW didn't matter. I blocked her on all social media and chose not to even acknowledge her existence. (Again, this is just MY opinion) My H did what he did, is doing what he's doing, all of his own volition. I don't like the OW by any stretch or think she's a decent human being, but I don't spend any time thinking about her. She only enters my thoughts peripherally, as in if I think about "Oh, today is H's bday," I also know he's spending it with her.
I don't forgive her. Hell no. I just don't consider her at all. I don't have kids so she's really not a part of my life at all. (I honestly don't know how those of you who have to deal with having an OP in your kids lives handle it because it just seems awful.)
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I'd also like to add that for ME (not everyone, but ME), looking at OW's social media and seeing her pictures, etc, would impede my healing. I know some people can handle looking at pictures and knowing all about the OP, but I just can't.
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What Milly said......X 1,000,000
I am so tired of feeling like I need to apologize for anything I've said/done re: OW.
Whenever I look at their social media, I am actually quite offended.....you really blew up your family for THAT?!?
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I’ve had my own issues regarding the ow. My h was having a MLC otherwise he wouldn’t have even glanced her way. But he WAS having a midlife crisis which made it oh so easy for him to fall into her trap, otherwise he wouldn't have glanced her way. She knew he was in an intact marriage when they met at an out of town function involving alcohol. She didn’t care and they proceeded jointly to get me out of the picture and get him divorced after spending all 3 nights with each other. By then he was gone. Hard not to have some negative feelings about her. She can’t be in her right mind either because MLCer’s are no catch in any of the ways that matter - character, integrity, loyalty. Often personality disordered or having a MLC themselves so is it no wonder they don’t care?
On the other hand I realize that if it wasn’t her it would eventually be someone else who was ready and willing because that’s what most MLCer’s do. Somehow the ow is an important factor in resolving his issues and the presence of someone to have a affair with is just how it goes with MLC.
I stopped ages ago calling her awful names, not because she didn’t deserve it but because it kept me focused on what they were doing instead of what I needed to do. I kept me stuck and delayed my own growth. My ongoing anger was wearing me down and doing nothing to either of them. I had to stop. If she has to be mentioned to anyone for any reason I never use her name, she is just his girlfriend. Not at all the same as a wife. In fact that’s pretty disgusting as it is for a married man to have a girlfriend and other people will smell the yuck without me having saying anything more.
I recently just started doing this when posting here. Whenever I refer to h or his ow, it’s lowercase, not caps. Small thing I know but I’m saving the Caps for people that deserve it.
I’m not offended at all if other posters want to rant some about it. We’ve deserve to vent what we feel. Suppressing is no good either - how long before the lid really blows off? The only way I managed to stop was when I became aware of what all that anger and negative energy was doing to me and the trade off was simply not worth it in the end.
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Well the second time I ended up here I am thankful people allowed me to vent and get out my anger. It did help me heal.
Again my situation was different. I didn't need to vent about the OW/ EXOW.
In 2013 it was about what happened to me and how mad that made me feel. That was the focus.
But I'm pretty sure back in 2010-2011 I had a few choice names for her and no one stopped me from expressing myself.
However full responsibility is put on the ex. She was a catalyst-that's all- nothing more. And if it wasn't her it would have been somebody else.
I have a question for anyone who reads this:
Can anyone recognize their anger as a possible step/stage in the grieving process?
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Today I have read comments that I feel may stifle this openness...…..comments saying things like 'not to focus on the OW'....
how 'name calling is wrong'.....
Why is it?...........who says it is.?...
RCR for a start.
Also, name calling is not being open, is just name calling and it goes agains HS rules and code of conduct.
Do you think it makes sense to focus on OW/OM and call them names? What purpose does it serve?
The person responsible is our MLCer, not OW/OM. There are people on this site that have end up in court because of name calling to OW/OM in real life and doing other things againt them.
Hard to see how that served the LBS.
I understand that, in the initial shock, a person may say a dirty name. However, if it carries on, it means we are placing our energy in the wrong place.
Yes, some OW/OM are really problematic. In such cases a LBS must protect his/herself, including legally. Name calling and being angry is not going to protect the LBS. It may, in fact, it may lead to the opposite.
The problem with venting our rage/anger and hatred towards the OW/OM is that this takes the focus off our work that we need to do to heal.
This. Also, in some cases, OW/OM is no longer OW/OM, but married to the MLCer, which means they are now the spouse, yet some LBS still keep invested in that person and still call names. As soon as there is a marriage, regardless of how it started, the person becomes a spouse, there is no more affair.
Is Hero's Spouse a place of HATE or a place of healing and growth?
A place of healing and growth.
May I ask why such investement on OW/OM, 1trouble? You're not a newbie, out of BD, still in shock. Your ex-husband is married to is OW, he is no longer your husband. Yet, you remain too focussed on his wife. Why?
As I said above, HS has rules and a code of conduct. Name calling is not allowed. Hate also isn't. Therefore, a thread to name call and to use hate, if that is the purpose, goes against HS rules.
As posted by 1trouble, HS already have several threads on the OW/OM issue. Why the need for a new one? And everyone talks about the matter on their own threads and received adequated help for their situation.
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The problem I see is what does focusing on the other person do for you?
The other person is just a prop in this play, they are not the main character.
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comments saying things like 'not to focus on the OW'....
how 'name calling is wrong'.....
The "basics" of understanding MLC is that it is not about the LBSer and not about the marriage.
The OW/OM is part of the crisis and most MLCers have this in common. But they are not to "blame" for the crisis.
No they are not to blame and no-one is saying that BUT they are part of the hurt and part of not being able to accept the crisis.
Its what a lot of LBS's struggle with.
The problem with venting our rage/anger and hatred towards the OW/OM is that this takes the focus off our work that we need to do to heal.
There is a huge difference, IMO opinion between rage/anger and hate...……
and to talk about the OW/OM also IMO can actually aid healing...….this is part of what we a lot of us face, the crisis and the AP.
And the AP is what causes a lot of LBS's the most pain....maybe not you, but then XYZ you had a long time dealing with your MLC'ers crisis without even knowing about an OW....so your pain came in stages, its not the same for everyone
The idea of this thread, to allow a place to vent and "scream" makes me think of mob mentality...to whip everyone into a frenzy of name calling and hate...that's what I see name calling..hate.....
Is Hero's Spouse a place of HATE or a place of healing and growth?
Again the Hate word XYZ why is that?
This is to get this site back to what I saw it was years ago when I went back in the archive and how it was when I joined, which is an inclusive and supportive non-judgemental place...where those who are dealing with like minded situations can share, support and not judge.....
And yes sometimes vent...vent at the craziness of some of the AP's, vent at the injustice and the spitefulness thats coming their way...vent their kids have to go to stay with the MLC'er and OW.
you need to vent in this way, perhaps a personal journal is a more appropriate place to let out your anger and rage, or a gym or going for a long walk....MLC is going to last for a long, long time....the LBSer gets to choose how they will spend that time. Spending it condemning the OW/OM and calling him/her names will increase the biological stress responses that are already in overdrive in your body, causing physical and emotional harm.
I'd rather see people use other techniques to calm their nervous system so they can go about life and securing their financial and legal issues in a calm and efficient matter. Spending that energy into being a single parent to their children and showing our children how we handle difficult situations...without name calling which to me is a violent act would be much healthier.
Name calling maybe a violent act in your opinion but I have seen on a huge amount of threads the OW referred to as 'pondlife 'pondscum' 'parasite' 'tool' 'Sasquatch' and many more.....this is from LBS's before me and it never stopped their healing.....
Name calling may be a violent act to you, to me it helps others get the anger out there.....
AND what dismays me is that you pick up on one point....the name calling.....when that's a very small part of what this thread is about
What I want to do is let those who need it be able to discuss stuff and help each other without judgement, like they were able to do years ago.
Like it or not some LBS's are dealing with particularly nasty divisive AP's...…. this is now those LBS's every day reality
AND some LBS's really struggle with the AP and need to be able to discuss this and to share HERE...why are they not allowed to do that without judgement?
It actually helps healing in my opinion to be able to know those people oepaoniWhy
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With regards to anyone who feels they aren't able to talk about the OW on their own threads without having to apologize for it, my feelings are, as I said to Milly, venting when you have a cray cray OW who is seeking you out, getting in your face and being nutso is different than just continuously screaming "OW is a ow!! OW lured my H away!! OW broke up my family!!" and never moving past that intense blind rage.
Everyone has vented to some degree about the OP. When people indicate that they are checking the OP's social media or things like that, it's a logical question for others to ask how it's serving them and to suggest they focus on themselves and not engage with the OP at all. Especially an OP who is presenting characteristics of a PD. They want you to engage so why give them anything they want? And absolutely, when you are doing things to vent your rage that land you in jail, that's a huge problem and not something anyone here or IRL would champion.
We all say all the time, we can only control ourselves. We can't change anything about the situation. Giving energy to the affair won't change anything. Whatever the reason for our spouse being with the OP, they are with them and will be until they decide not to be anymore.
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I've called my wife's OM names, and called om/ow on other people's threads names.
I don't see anything wrong with it. I don't hardly ever mention ON anymore but I did at first. I think it's part of our(LBS) healing process. If we can't come let our anger out here??? Then where can we?? That's what we are here for us to help others heal and get past our pain. Hell I've called my wife names on here. I think it's just part of it.
10 years down the road u will still think OM is a POS!!! I understand my W is the cause and I'm sure she pursued him, but in my book he's crap too. JMO.
Are we saying no names at all, like skank, or tramp, or just no bad names like @#$!# or @#$%!?
If someone is hurting or angry and want to call OM/OW a name???? Oh well!! JMO.
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Name calling is not allowed. Hate also isn't. Therefore, a thread to name call and to use hate, if that is the purpose, goes against HS rules.
Could you please stop being the HS [police]? [RCR Edited for rude inappropriate and uncalled for reference]
Because between this & "lariwriter, you don't belong here!", it's grown really tiresome. This thread was formed to vent - not "hate" - and indicated to be such a thread. So if you don't like it, don't look at it!
But while we're on the subject, RCR's very own words were, "I get it....she really is a wh*r^."
So, did RCR break her OWN "rules" when she wrote that?
No, what I have said is that I understand why an LBS would call an alienator that. I have not said you should call anyone that. My understanding is not an endorsement.
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I know I am new but this is my two cents.
I had real anger issues with the other man. I Wanted him and her dead, I didn't want to do it myself but I did wish the plane would fall out of the sky when they were visiting each other. I still have never seen a picture of him and I am glad for that. He lives 2000 miles away and I am glad for that. I called my wife a Wh23re and said I wanted to beat this guys a$$, but I wanted her to watch.
All of that being said, I really didn't start to heal emotionally until I started praying for the OM. I found God and it really elevated my thought process. I prayed for his safety and that he could find his way back to his wife.
I didn't want to go through life being the angry resentful man. That I was in such a dark place that i had nowhere to go but up. I have my moments and I cycle occasionally were I am still angry. But overall I could and wouldn't begin to heal until I changed my thought process. I wish now that I could take back all of the angry words I have said. I am better than that !
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Anjae
I had a sweepstake with someone how long it was going to take you to show up!
You what?
a) this is a discussion thread
b) what you did goes agains what RCR request LBS not to do
c) what I said is either fact - HS rules, being RCR who says it, etc., question to you, that you did not adress or common sense.
d ) that was rude and uncalled for.
Name calling is not an opinion. It is name calling. Your for the supposed lack of openess of HS involves the fact that LBS are told not to name call OW/OM.
Opinion is also not hate. What some LBS write about OW/OM is hate. Also, some LBS medically diagnose the OW/OM with a personality or mood disorder = mental illness. Unless the LBS knows from the OW/OM doctor that OW/OM has a personallity or mood disorder, saying "the OW/OM is borderline/narcissist, etc." is wrong. Saying "I think OW/OM may be borderline/narcissist" is not. The "I think" makes all the difference.
HS always told LBS not to focus on OW/OM and not to name call. Always, since it existed back in 2010.
Everyone can share their experience with OW/OM and people do it daily. You are bringing up a non-issue and saying people who advice agains name calling OW/OM and LBS not to focus on OW/OM are being judgmental, when those are part of RCR way, that is, HS way.
Discuss what exactly? What people already do everyday on their threads? Did anyone said LBS were not allowed to talk about OW/OM? I don't think so.
Now, can you kindly answer my questions? Properly, if you please. Thank you.
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but then XYZ you had a long time dealing with your MLC'ers crisis without even knowing about an OW....so your pain came in stages, its not the same for everyone
Actually 1 trouble I knew about OW 10 days after BD. It was and always will be very painful so please do not dismiss my pain as being less than others.
Name calling is against the guidelines for this site. You are free to be abusive outside of HS. Please respect the mission of HS.
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JEEZ...…..
This thread is meant to be a chance for THOSE WHO NEED TO AND WANT TO to discuss the OW/OM without judgement...
ITS NOT ABOUT NAME CALLING persae....!!!!
This thread is for those people...…..focus and discuss all you want.....if this thread dies without anyone posting on it, then maybe I misunderstood the need for it.....
then use this space to do it and I hope others let you without judgement......because years ago on here thats exactly what would have happened... ….
This is my answer...............
XYZ.....if name calling was against HS policy then there would be hardly any posters including those who reconciled like seekingpatience, rainbowgal, offwhitelily and many more!
I was not dismissing your story, as if I would!!
I think you know me well enough XYZ to know I am not like that! I have never been dismissive of anyone's story or pain, even if I have (lately ) been accused of it!
If I got your story wrong I apologise
Now can we STOP the arguing that seems to go on here...ALL the bloody time and let this thread be a thread for those who are struggling with the AP and the stuff they have to deal with because of their spouses MLC choice of AP
BECAUSE the way this is going is not how I wanted it to be
THIS IS ABOUT LBS's WHO ARE STRUGGLING with the OW/OM concept AND dealing with the OW/OM intervention in their lives, their contolr over the MLC'er and the OW/OM seeing their children etc. etc...
And about allowing them a space to be able to do that ..the name calling is a way of depersonalising the AP IMO it is a part of healing FOR SOME
ITS NOT about anything else and despite me being vilified (which btw I don't care about, because HEY I have done my mirror work and I dont have issues !)
I started this thread because I wanted to give those LBS's a safe place!!
Though TBH the way this has gone off...which seems to be the norm lately ...it would be a brave LBS, especially a newbie who does post on here!!!
Thanks to all who have been brave thoughxx
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I think most of us DO NOT focus on the OW. But, if we have interactions with our MLCers, and certainly if we have kids, we do have some kind of contact, albeit mostly indirect, with the OW. And I think it is important that we talk it out. It isn't focusing on it any more than talking about what we did over the weekend. The OW is a part of our lives so long as the MLCer is. And even more so when we have kids--no matter what age they are. It's a fact. We can dismiss it and "ignore" it all we want. Or choose to focus on other things. But it is still there.
I personally WISH I could forget she exists. I pray for that day to come. And maybe it will. But wow, in early days, and even as I begin year 4, it is pretty raw when you have to watch another person living what used to be your life. Sure we all get a life. A new life. One without our "person" who chose to discard us without much (if any) explanation, and seemingly replace us with a downgraded model. I like the anecdotes and stories of OW. They are damaged for the most part. I am not being clinical. But well, in my case, this person entered into a relationship with a married man whose wife was in the middle of chemo. She knew him for 9 months--worked for him. And I truly cannot wrap my arms around the kind of person that could do such a thing. I'm not dismissing H from the blame. But, I took vows with him. I don't focus on her. But I see her. Hear about her. Hear stories of "them" together at events or on social media. And it sucks. And I don't really want to talk about it in RL either b/c then I look like a bit of a stalker.
Anywho, just my 2 cents. I, for one, am happy this thread is here. Thank you 1T!
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XYZ.....if name calling was against HS policy then there would be hardly any posters including those who reconciled like seekingpatience, rainbowgal, offwhitelily and many more!
It is and always was. In the past some things passed, mods can only read so much. Since March 18 2019 RCR posted on the sticky part of the board clear guidelines, rules and sactions for those who break the rules: https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=10725.0
It may be a good idea to read RCR's The Hero’s Spouse Code of Conduct. You already broke it a few times on this thread alone. This is RCR forum, we all have to follow her code of conduct.
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Well.......you're in the Army now, 1Trouble!
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A couple more thread links for those who are interested, these links include not just the dynamics but
situations where the MLC'er has a child with OW and meeting the OW
https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=2420.0
https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=2649.0
https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=5632.0
https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=4043.0
https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=5689.0
https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=8570.0
https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=10550.0
https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=5881.0
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Just a couple of observations.
This is an interesting thread title. It's a discussion thread, without a clear discussion direction. (Not a criticism; just an observation.)
I don't post very much anymore. My thread would be really dull because I don't have kids, don't like to talk about my work or hobby and H has vanished. So life would be summed up as "Work, ride, eat, sleep, repeat." B-O-R-I-N-G.
But I do still read a fair amount, and I would also say that there have been some changes to 'the way things used to be' on HS. My 2 cents, for what it's worth, is not so much that the topics have changed, or what can or cannot be said has changed, or the focus on standing or not has changed.
My perception of what has changed is the filter through which posters receive each other. My sense is that posters are quicker to perceive a comment as negative. That there is a little less room for grace. That differences of view become positional and personal - sometimes very quickly.
It might be because this is now a community where many have been here quite a while and think they know each other enough to assume what someone will do next. Old arguments get hashed and rehashed, and the gems of diverse experience and opinions (because that's mostly what is on offer) get lost in personality skirmishes. It's one of the sadder aspects of human nature.( And it's only my perception, so others will see things differently.)
ANYway, getting back to the subject at hand.
I don't think there's been any implicit or explicit direction not to talk (or trash talk) the OW/OM so much as there has been encouragement to think upon why one might need to?
In some cases, it is because the OP is in one's face. In many cases, probably most, it's because it is easier to feel anger toward the OP than the MLCer because our feelings are less conflicted about the OP.
I think others on this thread have said it well. Realize that putting the focus on the OW/OM.....puts the focus on the OW/OM. Is that where you want your focus to be?
No doubt, it is helpful to have a healthy outlet for unprocessed feelings toward the OP. Just stay aware that what one feeds is what grows. Anger may not be what one wants to feed, because anger can turn us on each other, too.
For me, venting rarely makes me feel completely better. Yes, it releases the pressure. But the need to process whatever the underlying emotion is is still usually still there, waiting to catch me the next time. For me, I find it better not to give them much attention at all -- which is SO very much easier with a vanisher.
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I enjoy threads like this. Not because I love calling Ow a POS Wh@re or whatever else. But because me personally, I enjoy seeing people post about their Ow/Om and for me to go “Oh hang on. My Ow does/did that”. It’s not just me. I know for me personally certain things “pop up” about her and things she said and I forgot them last week but now I remember.
Now. I suppose I’m different because I guess in my heart of hearts I don’t believe their was an actual affair. I have a gut feeling, I kicked H out before the affair could start. So I think had I not kicked him out when I did. There would have been an affair. I could be wrong ofcourse but there are so many factors that lead me to believe thing. But I guess that’s for another time. So Ow being with my H. Isn’t much of an issue. Technically neither of them actually did anything wrong. I guess morally they did as they started up less than a month after BD. But yeah.
My issue comes from Ow and the things she knows. For example, she knew AAAAALLLLL about me. H uploaded some pics of me and him on FB. She liked and commented them. We had chats in his comments on his social media. And I was told from a work friend, that Ow told H after I kicked him out, that H needed to find someone to make me jealous. Ow goads me constantly online. And I mean CONSTANTLY. It used to be quotes that would slag me off and H must have told her to take them down or whatever. Because she would eventually delete them. Whereas now she goads me with comments she makes to her friends, which are in direct relation to things I’ve posted on my social media a hour or two before her comment. I don’t rise to her. I don’t retaliate. But as of yet she’s not stopped. There was even a point where she called my children feral. However, H doesn’t believe she did. Typical. Her main aim, it seems right now is to keep me and him away from each other. I believe she’ll do just about anything to keep her claws firmly dug into him. I mean I could go on and on and on really and use up the whole thread on her.
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I for one hate other woman. I think she is a ow. Before my h ( a married man) she was with another married man. She is/ was desperate . He told her so many lies about how we were getting a d , i was served papers and we had gone to court. When she found out all this was a lie , she must have given h an ultimateum( spelling wrong). She also had fear for her children. ( of course i was crazy per h) But rather than end an affair with a married man she got a restraining order against me. What normal person would do that.
These woman are evil. Sure these woman supposedly mean nothing but they definately are manipulative. To hold on to these mlcers. No matter how many lies ow caught my h in , she is still with him. The fn nuts. He has proved he is unfaithful, not responsible, lies, left his kids . I cant understand why she stays with him. Not to mention he is broke af.
As far as im concerned , regardless if im divorced from h, he is still having an affair. If he marries her , it will still be an affair in my book. Because that is how it started.
H is demented and needs help. She is just plan desperate , stupid, greedy, selfish . I cant wait til the day she hurts like all of us here on hs. If karma exists ( which i do not believe in) that what i hope karma brings her.
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I always saw the "name calling" rule here as something we're not to do to each other. I think it's human nature to position the OPs in our minds as something, especially during the anger phase. I certainly did. And it passed. Now I have no feelings for either of them. Maybe pity? But that's just how it manifested for me. It's hard telling how I would feel if I still had to deal with them. Also knowing they both started out as affair partners (she was also married) doesn't validate their marriage to me and "un-affair" them. In their own lives, they can frame themselves however they want, but I only see them from my own perspective, which is my ex-husband who cheated emotionally, physically, and financially with this other man's wife. That's not anger, that's just the truth.
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Keep believing - my Ow is the similar. H is her (minimum) fourth person she’s been with that was someone else’s man. She also knows H lies. She know he cheats - he’s cheated on her and she knows. She knows it all. That said, I do believe it will be Ow who ends it and I think shr will end it for another man
R2T - I also feel pity for my Ow. It shows how damaged she is and how little self respect she has to still be with him. Had she been a young naive 18 year old. I would accept that. But this is a fully grown adult. She’s older than me!
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Quite honestly , if you dont like the discussion of this thread , dont read. Others can do/ say what they want with this thread. No opinions from any one who disagrees with this thread is needed. There are many other threads people can read. Stay off this one
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Thank you 1T for starting this thread. I for one am reluctant to post about OW for fear of being judged. I don’t feel currently strong enough for further judgement- I deal with it enough from MLCer.
I’m not sure how name calling became an issue. Personally I try to avoid name calling on here. In RL with people I’m close to I have a particular name and even an emoji for OW. But name calling & swearing is not me.
That said I do think its easy for people to say detach from OW, don’t focus on her etc when they aren’t dealing with a particular kind of OW. I hold my H fully responsible for his decisions and by no means have I ever thought it’s is only OW at fault. However I do believe OW in my situation cast her net and purposely went after my H knowing full well he was married and had 2 small
children. In fact she worked on him for some time. I also saw the manipulation from her in messages. If you follow my story you will see that I blocked her from all social media as she was in fact stalking my life for a long time before I even knew she existed. My focus on OW is at times only to serve me and my children as things my friends have found out about and informed me have helped me when fighting for my children in court and it benefited me. In RL I am not hateful towards her and in fact when I recently came face to face with her I held my head up and even said hello to her. With dignity.
Now in my situation OW and her family are around my children. They have to stay at her house often. She ignores them, doesn’t feed them and sabotages any time H spends with his girls alone. She insists he treat her kids like his own, emotionally and financially but treats my children like an inconvenience. She does not have a single care in the world for my children even as a mother herself. Yes I hate her because I would like to know if any mother who sees her children hurting and being treated this way ignore or not focus on OW. I only vent here or those close to me. In RL I am
completely focused on protecting myself and my children and creating a better life for us. Being angry with OW is not preventing me from doing that. There needs to be some outlet for the anger and yes anger and even hatred can be part of the healing process. It’s only when we become consumed with it and when it stops us from functioning and we make decisions or take actions fuelled by this anger and hatred that it becomes a problem.
For those of you who say they barely give OW a second thought- I envy that your in a position to do that. Had it not been for the fact that I have children who are exposed to that relationship and to someone who blew up their lives with H without a shred of empathy or compassion for 2 innocent children as a mother herself- I would have perhaps been where you are. Part of my focus on OW is to know exactly what my children are exposed to- as there Mum I have a responsibility to be aware of this. I was recently told to have a look at some historical social media posts of OW. I was horrified that my children are exposed to such vulgar, sexually inappropriate behaviour. One post even talked about her being stoned (when her own child must have been only 2 or 3). Yes part of me wished I had not seen that as I can’t really use it to change anything but I was informed by someone who
thought I could use it for my case. Part of me was also glad I saw it so im fully aware of who they around and maybe damage control as best as I can. In my case my children are not only exposed to OW but also to her grown up children who are just as bad or worse than her. I may sound judgmental when I say this but my children pre MLC were not exposed to this kind of environment and were brought up very differently not just culturally but morally.
As for ‘thinking’ or ‘knowing’ OW has PD makes no difference. I can only deal with what I can see...and what I see is a manipulative sick OW (yes I could come up with quite a few other names) who ‘in my opinion’ is personality disordered. I don’t need to know her to have this opinion as I’ve seen enough to strongly suspect it. That does NOT mean I am diagnosing her or anything else but I am allowed to have my opinion just like anyone else is.
I have to say that my recent discoveries and focus on OW has actually helped give me some insight into this process and nothing is clearer to me now than the fact that MLCer is the complete opposite to who he was. He would never have been attracted to someone who is so vulgar, manly or crude. I am
literally the opposite to her and he would always say he loved that I was feminine and prim and proper. His perceptions, values, opinion, likes and dislikes are the complete opposite. So the focus on OW has helped to confirm my H is a textbook MLCer. If it weren’t for the fact that my children are caught in the middle I would stand back and watch the crash that is coming with interest.
I work very hard to not wish bad on either H or OW (despite the constant monstering) and try to have faith in karma.
I also want to say that I do not agree that just because MLCer is married to OW that you should change your perception or view of OW. A marriage built on lies, deceit, destruction and at the cost of others pain is not one to be respected. At the end of the day just because OW becomes his wife does not take away from the fact that she was OW to begin with. If H broke up with OW and started a relationship with someone else then perhaps I would not have the same level of anger towards her (again depending on how she was as a person and how she treated my children). Hating that person would mean I am over focused on MLCer and still very much attached to him.
1T I wish I was on the site a few years back when it seems that there was more understanding and less conflict.
I’m all for helping LBS’s to detach and focus on themselves but do not think by telling them
not focus on OW is necessarily the way and can come across as dismissive if they are struggling with a difficult OW who is being flaunted and rubbed in their faces. I’m not sure if I’m being over sensitive here but I find some posts patronising and self righteous.
Let’s hope that one day I am able to not focus on OW...when my girls are old enough to deal with her and are able to stand up for themselves and look after themselves. Until then I’ll do whatever I need to do to protect them within my own personal boundaries of maintaining my self respect, dignity and being a good role model for them.
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I think others on this thread have said it well. Realize that putting the focus on the OW/OM.....puts the focus on the OW/OM. Is that where you want your focus to be?
No doubt, it is helpful to have a healthy outlet for unprocessed feelings toward the OP. Just stay aware that what one feeds is what grows. Anger may not be what one wants to feed, because anger can turn us on each other, too.
For me, venting rarely makes me feel completely better. Yes, it releases the pressure. But the need to process whatever the underlying emotion is is still usually still there, waiting to catch me the next time. For me, I find it better not to give them much attention at all -- which is SO very much easier with a vanisher.
I would like to contribute here. I will not vilify ow. I prefer not to know too much about her. The relationship that my h. has with her is a source of inner frustration, however, I know that he is the one who stepped out of our marriage. She was just available. She clings to him. He is a very lovely person, so, in a way, I can understand that.
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Megogirl,
I am sorry that you find this post necessary.
Anjae is straight talking and abides by rules. I can understand that you are angry at your h's choices, including his choice of ow. Mst of us have to deal with this and we deal...
Name calling is not allowed. Hate also isn't. Therefore, a thread to name call and to use hate, if that is the purpose, goes against HS rules.
Could you please stop being the HS gestapo?
Because between this & "lariwriter, you don't belong here!", it's grown really tiresome. This thread was formed to vent - not "hate" - and indicated to be such a thread. So if you don't like it, don't look at it!
But while we're on the subject, RCR's very own words were, "I get it....she really is a wh*r^."
So, did RCR break her OWN "rules" when she wrote that?
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One of Hearts Blessings (HB) most interesting articles: https://thestagesandlessonsofmidlife.org/lifes-lessons-misdirected-anger-at-the-other-woman/ - Misdirected Anger at the Other Woman.
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Could you please stop being the HS gestapo?
I’m sorry, you said what?
This is totally unacceptable.
You need to apologize to Anjae and all those offended by your flippant use of the word ‘gestapo’. These people were responsible for unspeakable atrocities against humanity and for sending numerous people to their death in gas chambers and by other vile means.
This comment is extremely offensive.
And, please explain:
Well.......you're in the Army now, 1Trouble!
What Army???
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I’m all for helping LBS’s to detach and focus on themselves but do not think by telling them to not focus on OW is necessarily the way and can come across as dismissive if they are struggling with a difficult OW who is being flaunted and rubbed in their faces. I’m not sure if I’m being over sensitive here but I find some posts patronising and self righteous.
Bewildered, this a a great example of what can happen with the written word. :)
Maybe you're being sensitive; maybe you're not. Maybe (I might think) you're defensive. Probably you're not. Maybe you're referring to my post, maybe you're not.
But, if you are finding some posts patronizing and self-righteous, that really *is* the way the message is being received by you.
Which doesn't mean that the post is patronizing. Or is self-righteous. Or dismissive. The writer may really just be wanting to share that not thinking about the OW was the best way they found to detach. Or discuss how they approach the topic of OW/OM.
You're the only one who can look at why you're received the message as you have. Just like I'm the only one who can look at why I've received your message as I have. (I don't actually think you're defensive. I just think this is great example of how different experiences influence the reception of a message.)
Sometimes I think HS should name the "discussion" threads "(dis) agreement" and "agreement" threads. ;D
BTW, if it was my message that made you feel that way, I am sorry if I left that impression.
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Interesting message timing.
This, on the other hand, is pretty clear.
Could you please stop being the HS gestapo?
I’m sorry, you said what?
This is totally unacceptable.
You need to apologize to Anjae and all those offended by your flippant use of the word ‘gestapo’. These people were responsible for unspeakable atrocities against humanity and for sending numerous people to their death in gas chambers and by other vile means.
This comment is extremely offensive.
And, please explain:
Well.......you're in the Army now, 1Trouble!
What Army???
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YAY! I love this thread!
Because I have been personally derided by people for calling OW a hooker, et al. Well, this homewrecker only appeared after XH became a high-powered executive, earning over $300k a year. Would she still have been interested when he was 23, and BROKE?!?
As Anjae said, name calling can be counterproductive. In your case, you are facing potential felony charges and prison time for calling OW a ow. I wonder if you actually do get jailed whether you will change your tune and finally realize that calling OW a ow had life altering consequences that are entirely your own fault.
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The concept that "if you don't want to read this thread then just don't do it" doesn't allow posters to go against the Mission Statement for Heros Spouse nor the Code of Conduct. It is a privilege to be able to participate in this forum and it is not a free for all. Like many things in life, there are rules, and for good reason.
To discuss ways of dealing with OW/OM or situations concerning the OW/OM is one thing...but in the opening post 1trouble stated the following:
But if you feel the need to rant, name call, compare notes about OW/OM do it.
Sorry, that goes against the Mission Statement and Code of Conduct for Hero's Spouse.
There are many other places if you want to use derogatory words to talk about the OW/OM. Heros Spouse is not one of them.
Please read this carefully:
"Mission Statement
To provide information, advice and support on how to Stand for marriage to men and women experiencing midlife crisis and infidelity in their marriages.
To prevent divorces.
To reduce the overall rate of divorce.
To encourage an alternative to divorce.
To encourage personal growth and loving of one’s Self.
This is accomplished by…
Offering a community for non-judgmental support.
Teaching and encouraging Agape and Forgiveness for all people and all situations.
Providing resources for continuing development and education.
Offering individual Coaching
We make no judgments; all are welcome. This is a place of love and support, not a place to degrade and insult others—including your MLC spouse.
Though heavily influenced by Christianity, people of all Faiths are welcome.
Though most of us are heterosexual, we do not discriminate based on sexual orientation."
https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=1146.0
The Code of Conduct is located at:
https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=10725.msg715366#new
for posters who are not familiar with the terms of agreement for use of this forum.
Which includes:
Sometimes our emotional turmoil leads to conflict with each other. We understand this, but our situations are no excuse for poor behavior and mistreatment of others.
I have already seen the disrespect to other posters, specifically those who are clearly stating the rules.
If you don't like the rules, take it up with RCR...but in the interm, you are expected to abide by what is written in the Mission Statement and the Code of Conduct...none of us are exempt from this.
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Quote from: megogirl on Today at 01:17:27 PM
Could you please stop being the HS gestapo?
This is what I mean by HATE, pure and unadulterated HATE to use that word in reference to one of our members will not be tolerated.
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Could you please stop being the HS gestapo?
I’m sorry, you said what?
This is totally unacceptable.
You need to apologize to Anjae and all those offended by your flippant use of the word ‘gestapo’. These people were responsible for unspeakable atrocities against humanity and for sending numerous people to their death in gas chambers and by other vile means.
This comment is extremely offensive.
It is more than totally unacceptable and extremelly offensive. I have mentioned many times I have Jewish blood (as well as mourish one, just like many other Portuguese do). It would be totally unacceptable and extremely offensive to say it to anyone, to say it so someone with Jewish blood it is something else and even worst.
Discussion presupposes that some will agree and others will disagree with an argument/idea/etc.
I have sound like a broken record for years on end saying OW/OM is a sympthom of MLC, but OW/OM is a person, not a thing. The damage caused by an affair is very different than the damage cause by a MLCer buying cars, houses, etc.
An affair, MLC or not, is hurtful. No one denies that. No one ever said LBS cannot discuse the real issues and pain caused by OW/OM. People do it daily.
What people were always told is not to focus on OW/OM. In the past much more than know. They also used to be told straightforwardly that engaging with OW/OM, meddling in the MLCer's relationship with OW/OM, let alone when the MLCer is married to OW/OM is no-no.
If anything, of late LBS haven't t been told what they used to be told when it comes to OW/OM.
Regarding OW/OM that is a real danger to LBS and kids. Venting on HS about is only venting. If the OW/OM is a real danger to LBS and kids the LBS must speak to a lawyer and/or the police. LBS with small kids/underaged kids can also request sole custody of the kids if they think the MLCer is not fit to have them/is involved with someone not fit for the kids.
Or can court request the kids are not allowed to see OW/OM if OW/OM is truly a danger. No amount of name calling is going to help the LBS being safer.
As for social media, social media can be made private and it is possible to block people from seeing our social media. Sure, fake accounts can be created, but that is another matter. Same for calls/texts from OW/OM, their number can be blocked.
Make sure you always keep evidence if OW/OM, or your MLCer, does anything illegal, offensive, etc. If you have a lawyer, give the evidence to your lawyer.
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There is nothing wrong with the alienator as a topic of discussion. LBSs need to vent and it is part of their healing. I get that.
Anjae, first, I could not find a specific reference to name-calling on The Code of Conduct—I think it was likely there in one of my early drafts though and I mentioned name-calling as something not to do in recent posts. The Mission Statement does say that this is not a place to degrade or insult and that includes the MLC spouse.
Sure, not calling names is a good idea, but I think the problem Anjae is that you are being too literal regarding rule and looking at the letter of the law rather than the spirit. This is why I was so resistant to setting down specific rules of conduct. Yes, they are important and they protect us, but where there are rules there are police and I don’t want us to be the board police.
Those who say it’s not healthy to focus on the alienator and what does it serve you… are also right, but we need to accept the process of both MLC and of how LBSs recover. Yes, I’m all about Grace and Agape and Forgiveness, but I really hope I’m not self-righteous about it and that is what some of the complaints about this thread seem.
There are some here who are posting derogatory or name-calling sort of remarks about their MLCer or the alienator that bother me because I can see it is harmful to them and it is enabling them to remain in victim-mode, but there are many others who are not stuck in anger, but who are still using their anger as par to their healing.
For goodness sakes, I wrote about b!tc#-Mode (https://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/standing-actions_balancing-love_tightrope_b!tc#.html) and how venting is sometimes necessary!
I find this discussion absurd—in-fighting about whether you an have a Topic Discussion about the alienator.! Seriously people! Of course you can. It will be monitored and if it gets out of hand the mods will be here…but I really dislike even the assumption that it will get out of hand. We are adults and we can vent and talk about what we have experienced without going after each other.
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One last post then I’m outta here. Yet another thread blows up and diverts away from the purpose of the discussion.
No one here can be sure their ow/om is worse than anyone else's.. They are ALL horrible in their own unique way. It does appear some situations are more challenging than others but not every poster talks about their ow/om in the detail that other posters do. So who knows whose got it bad and whose got it not so bad?
Something else to consider,,,many AP’s are also in crisis. For the AP’s that are also married or otherwise in a solid R until BD, that means your H or W is the OW/OM to another devastated LBS. We all know what our MLCers are capable of so its very likely that the other devastated LBS is name calling, venting, about YOUR husband/wife in the worse way possible.
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You lost me, RCR. Are we to follow your HS Code of Conduct and HS mission statement or ignore it?
Name-calling is not mentioned in the code of conduct.
Or is it a free for all? I am sorry, but spirit is not palpable, rules/codes are and you wrote them.
This could be a cultural language thing--spirit versus letter of the law is a saying here.
So, it is fine to call me gestapo, among other things, it is fine if I name call others? Because that is a clear contradiction with your own code of conduct that Xyzcf just posted.
I did not say that it was okay to call you names or anyone on this board. The topic of this thread was supposed to be about the alienator.
I have no idea why you are siding with name calling and hate. There is at least one poster on this thread that is in court for name calling OW in real life. Therefore, name calling is not a good thing.
I sided with no one. I said people are allowed to have a thread about the alienator and I said those who were saying that focusing on the alienator is not healthy are also right.
You really, really, lost me RCR. Siding with hate and name calling? ??? ??? How bizarre.
Consistent and understanding of the process. Not policing and no, no bizarre.
Yes, you wrote about b*tc#-Mode, but if I well recall, that had more to do with the LBS being tough with the MLCer than name calling OW/OM. Venting does not apply to name call and hate towards HS members, does it? Because that has happened on this thread. And you said nothing about it.
i never said it applied to HS members. This thread is meant to be about the alienator.
You have just opened the door to a lot more name calling and abuse by endorsing it. I am truly sad to see you write and do so. You have also showed the Code of Conduct you wrote has no value. Nor does your Mission Statement.
What I refuse to endorse is being the board police.
RCR edited in post to keep comments close to the original.
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There is nothing wrong with the alienator as a topic of discussion. LBSs need to vent and it is part of their healing. I get that.
Anjae, first, I could not find a specific reference to name-calling on The Code of Conduct—I think it was likely there in one of my early drafts though and I mentioned name-calling as something not to do in recent posts. The Mission Statement does say that this is not a place to degrade or insult and that includes the MLC spouse.
Sure, not calling names is a good idea, but I think the problem Anjae is that you are being too literal regarding rule and looking at the letter of the law rather than the spirit. This is why I was so resistant to setting down specific rules of conduct. Yes, they are important and they protect us, but where there are rules there are police and I don’t want us to be the board police.
Those who say it’s not healthy to focus on the alienator and what does it serve you… are also right, but we need to accept the process of both MLC and of how LBSs recover. Yes, I’m all about Grace and Agape and Forgiveness, but I really hope I’m not self-righteous about it and that is what some of the complaints about this thread seem.
There are some here who are posting derogatory or name-calling sort of remarks about their MLCer or the alienator that bother me because I can see it is harmful to them and it is enabling them to remain in victim-mode, but there are many others who are not stuck in anger, but who are still using their anger as par to their healing.
For goodness sakes, I wrote about b*tc#-Mode (https://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/standing-actions_balancing-love_tightrope_b*tc#.html) and how venting is sometimes necessary!
I find this discussion absurd—in-fighting about whether you an have a Topic Discussion about the alienator.! Seriously people! Of course you can. It will be monitored and if it gets out of hand the mods will be here…but I really dislike even the assumption that it will get out of hand. We are adults and we can vent and talk about what we have experienced without going after each other.
Well the problem is not that some people are disagreeing, even disagreeing about whether the disagreements will get out of hand.
The problem is the people whose sole contribution to HS is fire spitting anger at the affair and mistreatment of other posters.
How many chances is Mego going to get?
I see her posts in a delayed manner because she has me blocked. But I still see them when we’re on the same thread.
This thread afforded her a prime opportunity to do both of her favorite things: get fired up about the immorality of the affair and make offensive statements to others.
I’m absolutely certain that was not 1trouble’s intent and not what she wanted to see on this discussion thread. Yet here we are again being subjected to it.
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One last post then I’m outta here. Yet another thread blows up and diverts away from the purpose of the discussion.
No one here can be sure their ow/om is worse than anyone else's.. They are ALL horrible in their own unique way. It does appear some situations are more challenging than others but not every poster talks about their ow/om in the detail that other posters do. So who knows whose got it bad and whose got it not so bad?
Something else to consider,,,many AP’s are also in crisis. For the AP’s that are also married or otherwise in a solid R until BD, that means your H or W is the OW/OM to another devastated LBS. We all know what our MLCers are capable of so its very likely that the other devastated LBS is name calling, venting, about YOUR husband/wife in the worse way possible.
I wish HS had a “like” button
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Well the problem is not that some people are disagreeing, even disagreeing about whether the disagreements will get out of hand.
The problem is the people whose sole contribution to HS is fire spitting anger at the affair and mistreatment of other posters.
How many chances is Mego going to get?
Forever. I was called out for saying people should abide by the code of conduct and mission statement, both written by RCR, Mego was told nothing for her name calling and hate towards others.
I can't think of anything more ridiculous than those who say people most follow a code of conduct and a mission statment written by the board owner to be chastise by the board owner for doing so while name callers and abuser are allowed scot-free.
I believe you should give the example, RCR. And be respectfult to those of us who have been here for years looking after your board and helping others. Rather than having you allowing people to mistread us and gave them ammunition to do so.
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Maybe I will get kicked out of here for saying this, but here goes...Mego spent several months praising RCR to high heaven and doing nothing but talking about how she was her hero, while insulting and denigrating the rest of us.
I was called a fly multiple times by Mego and she made references to swatting me repeatedly.
RCR devoted a whole post to publicly chastising me, based on reading only a few posts that I wrote that others did not like. Interestingly, when she posted her new code of conduct here, I noticed that the posts that she publicly shamed me for did not violate that code in the slightest. So why the public lecture about what she found lacking in my personality?
I hope RCR does the right thing here and shows us that we do not have to kiss her ass to not get a purple public whipping.
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Moderators can we please get this thread back on track. 1Trouble I am so sorry that your thread has been blown up - It certainly is a subject which every LBS can relate to. More relevant and beneficial to newbies and LBS within 5 or so years since BD who need support and a place to vent as we all know we are unable to do so in RL.
I used to recommend HS to many on a few FB groups that I am on. I haven’t done this for some time. This thread is the classic example of why. 1T started a very interesting thread and yet was questioned why such a thread should exist. Seriously if you disagree with a topic, or a situation does not apply to your stage of your journey - please don’t comment. Why is it necessary to debate everything that you don’t agree with? The majority of members read and ignore. Why some posters feel it absolutely necessary to share their views (either disagree or agree) on every single post beats me! We have long time members commenting that they fear mentioning things on their threads in fear of being judged and criticised. This is very sad for a support forum. It certainly is not the same atmosphere that it was when I first joined.
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... Mego spent several months praising RCR to high heaven and doing nothing but talking about how she was her hero, while insulting and denigrating the rest of us.
You are correct, Goner.
I was called a fly multiple times by Mego and she made references to swatting me repeatedly.
You were. And wrongly so.
None of my posts violates the new Code of Conduct, or has ever violated the Mission Statement. Yet, I was chastised more than once. Same is true of other members, including mods (current and former), the abusers were told nothing for months. And when they were it was because all hell broke lose.
I have no idea why people get reprimands for telling people they are breaking the Code of Conduct or the MIssion statement, but not for insults, hate and name calling. Things that under the Code of Conduct call for sanctions.
It is well known fact on HS I do not kiss ass. I do not intend to start now.
I believe you own all of us that have been insulted and suffered hate because you have protected them an apology, RCR.
I also believe you own a gigantic thank you to those of us who have been here for years on end doing daily work on your board. Be it mods, former mods, or old times. Even those who have been here for not than long.
There would be no HS without the work of those who are here daily, working for free, helping others. Yet, we are often very poorly treated when people who do nothing but insult and spew hate are told nothing.
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I think 1t will agree that the definition of discussion includes all forms of opinions on a topic. Disagreeing doesn’t become a problem until people cross the line and start responding with nastiness.
How many times is this subject going to come up? “If you don’t agree with a topic don’t post on it” has been said a few times and I just don’t understand it.
Isn’t that the same as saying “Don’t post unless you agree with what I think”?
Why the opposition to entertaining opposing viewpoints?
Or just ignoring them and moving on?
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Sadly many posters thrive on debating with everyone. They will debate on almost every topic under the sun and IMO thrive on coming across as more superior or knowledgeable than others - irrespective if they have experienced the topic firsthand or not. This repetitious daily behaviour raises many red flags personally for me.
Most LBS’s are emotionally raw and require much needed support. Isn’t this what HS is about? The majority of LBS’s are conflict avoidant, they don’t need anymore drama in their lives. All they seek is support from others who have experienced the MLC process. They are mentality drained from their experiences with the Mlcer and the manipulation of the OP. Many have financial, mental and health issues that they are dealing with. Make this a safe haven not a war battle ground.
IMO I find that most of the stronger LBS’s on here are old timers. They have regained their strength due to the time. But sadly IMO some of these Old Timers have forgotten parts of their own journey.
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I also believe you own a gigantic thank you to those of us who have been here for years on end doing daily work on your board. Be it mods, former mods, or old times. Even those who have been here for not than long.
I can’t help comment about this. RCR is the founder, the person who launched the forum. In spirit AT THE VERY LEAST, this is our forum. I’m sure this board is here for our benefit way more than for RCR’s benefit. Im not sure what purpose it serves her personally to “own” the board. She set it up for our benefit, not hers. I’ve been personally attacked here as well but did not expect intervention.from above. If we keep hauling RCR in here to break up our fights then how much longer would she want to be the “owner” of such a forum? I am grateful this board is here, thanks to her effort to create it. I would like to acknowledge her incredible contribution with this whole website including the forum.
Anyone who does daily “work” on the board - what do you mean? If you are or were a moderator and the work is too much then step down. But I’m not sure what you mean by daily work, Anjae. Please explain.
What I find disturbing is that once these threads start derailing there is no shortage of posters on EITHER side of the dispute that refuse to let it go and let the thread return to its original purpose. To me that shows incredible disrespect to the person who started the thread - discussion thread or personal thread.
At the moment I am incredibly frustrated because this WAS a promising discussion thread that would have garnered much interest. But now look at it - just another thread to throw onto the blown up pile. Consider how you may have contributed to its demise instead of starting a blame game with RCR at the centre of it.
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"If you don’t agree with a topic don’t post on it” has been said a few times and I just don’t understand it.
Isn’t that the same as saying “Don’t post unless you agree with what I think”?
It is.
Why the opposition to entertaining opposing viewpoints?
Or just ignoring them and moving on?
I don't know. Those you do not like opposing viewpoints and who do not answer when they are asked questions may know. Thinking that only their point of view is valid? That a discussion thread they start is only for them and the ones who agree with them? That they don't have a good ansewr to what they asked or are afraid their answer leads to more questions? Who knows.
The problem here is a little more complicated than normal.
1trouble's first post says
But if you feel the need to rant, name call, compare notes about OW/OM do it.
. 1troube herself is telling people they came name call OW/OM.
That is agains HS Code of Conduct.
One of 1troubl's offensive posts was removed. Mego's one were not. Then RCR come by said name calling was not a problem and falled upon me because I told people they shout abide by the Code of Conduct, that does not allow for name calling or hate.
Which one is it? Because, going by what RCR posted on this thread, name calling, crossing the line, etc. is fine. Asking people to follow RCR's own Code of Conduct and Mission Statement that forbid those things is wrong.
I cannot see the logic.
I don't know if 1trouble "definition of discussion includes all forms of opinions on a topic" because her post that was removed was aimed at me because I don't agree with her on a number of things.
As usual, bad behaviour is rewarded on HS.
Daily work Anon means work from the tech one to the suppor one. Who do you think does those things? Mods and in the case of support old timers and other as well.
Are you aware several of us have been mods, or were, for years on end? Mentors as well when the mentoring program existed. It was not RCR doing that, it was mods and mentors. It still is mods who do a lot, and several old timers and a few others. You do not see RCR around daily, do you?
RCR herself has posted more than once she does not hve time for HS. She relies, and had relied for years, on her mods, several of whom are now old timers. Some remain mods, some do not.
RCR, OP and all the mods know what I mean.
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This thread is not about agreeing or disagreeing. It is a form for some lbs to rid stress. If venting of ow helps release stress for you.then there is nothing wrong with that. For those of you that venting and using harsh words does not help you heal or release stress , this thread is not for you. Not every thread is going to fit your part of the journey. Thats all . Its that simple . No reason to discuss weather name calling ow is right or wrong. Quite frankly it is a proven fact that swearing helps release stress . So similarly calling ow names is the same.
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RCR, OP and all the mods know what I mean.
Anjae, come on,, I figured that’s what you meant which is why I referred to it in my own post. Bigger question now is why do you persist like a dog with a bone - you just can’t stand back and leave it alone, can you?
My last post - otherwise I become yet another poster that contributes to the blowing up of what could have been a good discussion thread.
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Leave what alone, Anon? Name calling, abuse? It is very interesting how several of you become so upset with me and others, but not with abusers and name callers.
Is abuse and name calling something that should be let go? I don't think so.
If you do not appreaciate the work and hours put by current and former mods so that you can you be/use HS, well ...
I and other board members are not OW, Keep. Name calling and abuse HS members is a no-no.
Being fine with name calling and abuse, including of board members, says more of those of you who are fine with it than of those of us who are not.
Don't worry, Anon. 1trouble herself blew the discussion when she insulted me on a post of hers that was removed by the mods. Mego did it by insulting me and others.
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So here goes...... one of the biggest thing that bothers me about ow , is she thinks she is better than me. She thinks h picked her. I kind of laugh about that. She just happened to be the one there.
Before i knew h was in mlc h had ow 1. I actually ended that. ( another story). Next in line was the one he is with now. But she thinks she is special and im crazy , b!tc# and whatever else told her about me.
Another thing is that every person told me their r wont last. Well its been 4 years. Ugh How can that be? Either she is very manipulative, h is that controlled or they are in love. Or she just wants to keep the game going.
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I think 1t will agree that the definition of discussion includes all forms of opinions on a topic. Disagreeing doesn’t become a problem until people cross the line and start responding with nastiness.
How many times is this subject going to come up? “If you don’t agree with a topic don’t post on it” has been said a few times and I just don’t understand it.
Isn’t that the same as saying “Don’t post unless you agree with what I think”?
Why the opposition to entertaining opposing viewpoints?
Or just ignoring them and moving on?
Bold statement above are my own added emphasis.
Nas, these are very interesting questions, and I am equally befuddled by the discomfort with differences of view. I find it particularly disappointing when what sets things off isn't even really disagreement, but a different view, or a post where someone offers their experience, or something to think about.
I can appreciate RCR's frustration on many levels - she already has a houseful to parent. And with due appreciation to Bren, I would certainly hope a group of adults who have, in most cases, been put on an involuntary path toward personal growth don't need a moderator to help them learn to get along with others, including those with whom they disagree.
One of the most interesting things about this forum is the range of perspectives and experience. I find there are some people with who I agree, some with whom I don't, some who I avoid, some who I seek out, and all of whom I learn something from.
For what it's worth, I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with a discussion thread where folks feel the need, and have the space, to work through difficult feelings. I think it can even be beneficial, because if this community can't hear people work through their frustration, who will?
But my spidy senses do stand on end a little, because it is very easy to tip into ugliness. And ugliness has a habit of sticking around.
Sadly many posters thrive on debating with everyone. They will debate on almost every topic under the sun and IMO thrive on coming across as more superior or knowledgeable than others - irrespective if they have experienced the topic firsthand or not. This repetitious daily behaviour raises many red flags personally for me.
Maybe. Or maybe they just have a different perspective.
Most LBS’s are emotionally raw and require much needed support. Isn’t this what HS is about? The majority of LBS’s are conflict avoidant, they don’t need anymore drama in their lives. All they seek is support from others who have experienced the MLC process. They are mentality drained from their experiences with the Mlcer and the manipulation of the OP. Many have financial, mental and health issues that they are dealing with. Make this a safe haven not a war battle ground.
Support comes in many different forms. Some of the most supportive people in my journey were folks who did not let me get away with feeling sorry for myself. That included LBS friends, my best friend in RL and my mother, who made it clear that "no daughter of hers" was going to sit feeling sorry for herself because she's been left by a man. That was within 2 months of BD, BTW. I never doubted they supported me when they called me on my self-sabotaging behaviours. (I didn't like it, mind you)
IMO I find that most of the stronger LBS’s on here are old timers. They have regained their strength due to the time. But sadly IMO some of these Old Timers have forgotten parts of their own journey.
Maybe. Tho I doubt it.
This thread is not about agreeing or disagreeing. It is a form for some lbs to rid stress. If venting of ow helps release stress for you.then there is nothing wrong with that. For those of you that venting and using harsh words does not help you heal or release stress , this thread is not for you. Not every thread is going to fit your part of the journey. Thats all . Its that simple . No reason to discuss weather name calling ow is right or wrong. Quite frankly it is a proven fact that swearing helps release stress . So similarly calling ow names is the same.
If you are referring to the the Keele University study, they also found that swearing to relieve pain was more effective for people who didn't do all the time. :-)
I'm not sure calling people names is a logical extension. Name calling tends to dehumanize the person, and and when we dehumanize people, we lose our empathy for them.
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Good Evening 1trouble,
Well you had an interesting thought here but I see it's been blown to hell like so many other interesting topics before it.
I never called the OW names in my case nor was I angry with her. She was a child when this nonsense began. A child in almost all senses of the word. She wore pigtails and carried a Hello Kitty backpack and wore a Hello Kitty jacket and watch. She had no figure to indicate she was a woman and sucked on lollipops. She wrote page after page emails about him being her knight in shining armour and how age differences were unimportant because she had an old soul. They went to arcades together while in Russia rather than the Hermitage.
No threat to me.
That's not to say I don't understand the desire and even need to vent at times.
What continues to bother me in relation to the original intent as I perceive it of the topic is the lack of understanding and use of the human emotion of anger.
People have a right to be angry at times. Anger is a human emotion. I do understand some are conflict avoidant and so anger is hard for them to express and hard for them to be exposed to. Yet, anger has its place in the human experience.
Anger, when directed properly, by self or with the help of others, can propel a person forward when little else will.
Anger is a natural stage in healing just as is sadness and depression. Some stay in sadness and depression stages much longer than others but those people get platitudes and understanding about well, it takes as long as it takes, feel the emotion, etc. Yet those who express anger are spanked with little understanding, told to be bright and breezy, called bitter etc. God help if someone had told me to have agape love for my ex when he was monstering at me yet again. I thank God for those women who helped me channel my anger productively and make the most good of it rather than shower me with platitudes and tell me how I should feel.
For some the betrayal as well, has many additional betrayal layers. We've had OW who were sisters, friends, relatives to name a few. Then there are those that were blessed with bigger monsters than others, even violent monsters, not to mention the divide between Clingers and Vanishers. And it's not everyone's goal to reconcile. Personally, I'd rather he respect me and fear harming me again, then to swallow whatever garbage he tosses my way and pretend I'm bright and breezy with what he had done at the time as I believe love isn't possible without respect.
One size advice doesn't fit all. And that should be OK.
In sum, being conflict avoidant is just as unhealthy and part of being codependent, as the opposite side of the coin, which is being angry and all that goes with anger including being controlling. One is just more acceptable currently on HS.
As to looking at and discussing the OW, at times I found it useful. We gather information and compare and contrast in order to learn about MLC at certain stages. The OW holds clues in my opinion to the process. Mine reverted back to when his father began his affair with his OW for example. Behavior fit. OW appearance, behaviors, and mannerisms fit. It answered some questions for me, for example.
Then I moved on. Natural progression through stages. Geez I'd rather deal with an angry person rather than someone stuck in victim mode any day. That was a beautiful part of HS then. No judgement. No one size fit all. The pendulum has swung too far one way.
That's not to say we should be calling each other names. But as someone who's been called many names on here, it's our choice whether or not to take the names personally or not. I choose to not and that works for me.
Lp
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I don't have a problem with anger. I am not one of the LBS who was anger free early on. In my case it was more furious than angry. Still, I didn't name call and didn't come to HS name calling and spewing insults on other members.
Anger is useful if used the right away. Problematic if it lands us in court or jail, or we never let go of it. Same with name calling, if lands you in court, it is a problem not a benefit for the LBS.
In real life, at least here, LP, the name calling and hate would had landed a few LBS in court. So would having a site owner saying there is nothing wrong with name calling and allowing members to name call and hate.
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The stages of Grief. Anyone remember them?
Denial
Anger
Bargaining
Depression
Acceptance.
These are the ones I agree with, I understand there can be more. I don't know about the rest of you, but I didn't move through these in a linear fashion. I did Denial, Depression, anger, bargaining, anger, denial, anger, depression, anger, depression, acceptance, anger, depression, anger, acceptance.
My MLCER does not have an "ow", it appears work is his op. I still get angry from time to time. If I had to deal with an op, forced to deal with it on a regular basis, being force to send my kids to be with her, I'd be angry. And I GET TO BE ANGRY!!!! It's not the being angry that is the issue, no one gets to tell us how we feel. It's how we, as individuals DEAL with that anger that matters. Do we feel angry and let it pass? Do we lash out at others who don't believe the same as we do? Do we vent in a safe place so we don't do something foolish in real life? Do we allow our anger to control us?
There is nothing wrong with anger. There is nothing wrong with venting our anger with a snide name from time to time. I'll own being petty from time to time, it doesnt make me a bad person. There is nothing wrong with cycling around and having our anger revisit us. And sometimes, what looks like anger is fear and sadness and the helplessness of the unfairness of it all. Who doesn't need a "I get that." when those feelings hit us?
We get through to acceptance on our own timeline, not anyone else's. No one is less than because the op is still in their life and won't go away and they are still angry or hurt or sad.
For those of you who are human, and have an ow/om and you still hurt, you have my deepest sympathy, I give you virtual hugs, and hope you make your way to joy at whatever speed it takes for you to get there. I grok venting as a way to work through things.
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No Anjae, you don't have a problem with anger as a human emotion. What I see at times is that people misconstrue your desire to discuss and debate a topic with your being angry or bitter. You and I have had some very productive and interesting debates over the years yet none degenerated into either of us calling the other names or calling for moderation from RCR.
I don't claim to understand the reasoning behind the latest purple post. It seems more of the attempt to balance and give the impression of understanding all sides in hopes of defending the underdog. Same old story we've seen play out before.
Anjae, you've stepped up into a void and been kicked over and over again for your efforts. It's not changing or stopping. So when will you either change your behavior/approach or just live with being kicked and not having your efforts appreciated.
The message seems clear to me at this point. Will you keep banging your head on the brick wall?
Lp
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I agree with everything LP said.
Which does not happen every day.
Maybe even only today. ;)
But I do agree.
Anger is a useful emotion. I personally find it's better to use it than to live in it.
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I remember the stages of grief. However, I no longer recall the order. It was too long ago.
Anger and hate are not the same thing. A lot around here is hate, not anger. Some can be fear and not anger. But hate is huge and has been of late.
Do we feel angry and let it pass? - some do and some never felt anger, Mitz, for example.
Do we lash out at others who don't believe the same as we do? - some do. not a very good idea, but it happens a lot.
Do we vent in a safe place so we don't do something foolish in real life? - excellent idea. a journal is a good place to do so. Or a HS personal thread with our usual "warning venting".
Do we allow our anger to control us? - some, like their MLCers do. not a good option.
I truly do not get the name calling, so I cannot say I get it. I do not swear. Be it on HS or in real life.
I also do not understand why people still call names to OW/OM many years down the road and are still angry at OW/OM, but often have no anger toward the MLCer. And LBS whose spouse is married to OW/OM should stay away from their ex-spouse and their new spouse. Nothing good will come of meddling in such relationship.
LP, I don't think it is wrong to want respect. RCR was unfair. Nothing new, happens all the time. I don't like unfairness. You may be fine with being called names, but I am not.
Yes, you and I like to debate and have done so many times without any name calling. Of late HS members aren't that much found of debate.
Well, if LBS want to dive into the abyss, be my guest.
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Onward, ;)
Thank you. I don't suppose the newer people get your point but I found the subtle humor wonderful. And I'd hope you continue to make me think as always.
Lp
I agree with everything LP said.
Which does not happen every day.
Maybe even only today. ;)
But I do agree.
Anger is a useful emotion. I personally find it's better to use it than to live in it.
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Well 1T, I have had limited experiences with OW. She was an employee of ours who I had met and periodically worked with for about a month. I left to see a relative who was ill and actually died the next day, and she and xh started their affair up right after. She lives in my xh's home country which is considered third world or developing. I am from the US. Anyways, at the beginning I was extremely angry with this woman, so much so that I envisioned her dying painfully numerous times (still do occasionally). I couldn't wrap my head around how a person I had just interacted with, went to lunch with a few times, and knew I left to essentially bury my Grandmother, would get involved with my then h. It was mind boggling. Still is. Nevermind what xh did. Words couldn't even express that pain.
As for name calling, I have one for xh Inuse occasionalIy. Can't be said here lol. Generally I refer to her as a prostitute which she is. Or maybe a more accurate word would be sugar baby? I think that's the new age term for a prostitute who doesn't walk the streets. At the time she and xh started their nonsense, she had just moved out of an apartment that she lived in with another guy and I was told, another girl, who was supposedly that guy's gf. That proved not to be true later on. He was her bf. She was also engaged to another guy from her home village who worked in South Korea. That's what she told xh. I'm not too sure that guy was actually going to marry her or if he was using her as well. She would send XH pics of the money that guy sent her and constantly bragged about her soon being a SK citizen. Which I know she was only saying to push xh quicker to divorce. You know, before this hot commodity gets snatched up! And later on around the time xh wanted to reconcile, she sent him screenshots of their break up and how that guy begged and cried for her. She told xh he was harassing her and her responses to that guy were so cold. Like stilted responses. We're done. Leave me alone. Things like that. It was disgusting. I realized immediately, well I already knew, that she was trying to catch any guy that would take her out of her country. She didn't really care about anyone. And later of course when xh would tell her he didn't want to marry, all of these suitors would come out ofnthe woordwork. Her dad wants to marry her to a guy in Oman, a doctor from the UK was interested in marrying lol. You'd think her motive would be obvious to xh, but he didn't care as they usually don't. As long as the drug works, nothing else matters.
I found out recently a person who I thought was someone else's wife I had accepted a friend request from was actually her. So she had stalked my FB page for two years. Once I unfriended her, she made a new id and tried to add me again :o :o :o :o :o ??? ??? I don't even know what to say about that.
She's your typical OW. Deranged, destructive, manipulative, et cetera. Threatens to kill herself occasionally, threatens to tell everything to xh's family, you know the drill. Marry me or I'll try my damndest to destroy you. Funny thing is only she would look the fool to his family. Doing something like that may even impact her ever being allowed to return to her parent's home if xh's family informed them. They're from a very different culture. But again they may support it if they think it'll get them a one way ticket outta poverty and into the US. Idk. They have to know there's no way she can afford to stay in Dhaka, pay rent for a decent apartment, have a new phone, new laptop, new clothes et cetera on any wage she could obtain there with no degree. In fact, I pitied her a bit for that reason. I wondered how far I would go if I lived in a third world country in their version of upper poverty. Would I mess a married guy if he was the equivalent of the recent one billion dollar lotto ticket? I don't think I would, but I'd be a different person. In her lifetime, she will never get another chance with a guy like xh. So her claws are sunk in deep. Like I said before, I honestly believe he could beat her and she wouldn't leave him. He certainly verbally abuses her.
Yes, I mulled over lots of things regarding her, but I know none of it matters. She could've been anyone. In the gist of things, she's nothing. She doesn't care about anyone and it may be no one in this world truly cares about her either. It shouldn't bring me comfort but it does. She will likely never know true joy or happiness in her life. Only suspicion, paranoia, and hatred because based on their messages, I know she certainly can't stand me.
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Anjae, no it's not wrong to want respect.
Yes, I am not fond of unfairness.
Yes, the purple post was not seemingly fair.
However, as you've said before it's her site and she runs it as she chooses. Based on history of behavior, you know how these things are addressed.
Yes, I don't care if someone on an anonymous forum calls me a name. It rarely happened directly to me but behind my back mostly.
Expectations.
We are told not to have them in relation to the behavior of the MLCer. I find that applies to dealing with other situations in life as well.
I don't expect fairness when past history has shown patterns of unfairness/illogical reasoning as is true in the case at hand.
I simply choose not to invest my time or emotion where it is not appreciated.
Some battles are not win-able.
Some wins are not worth the price paid.
Both are true here as nothing will change based on history. So the only two choices are banging ones head on a wall or changing ones behavior and expectations that I can see once one has said their piece.
I know who and what I am and I'm at peace with that. What another says about me is irrelevant to my life.
Lp
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I find this discussion absurd—in-fighting about whether you an have a Topic Discussion about the alienator.! Seriously people! Of course you can.
RCR, it's totally absurd.
If the alienator doesn't like to be called a hooker, well then maybe she shouldn't act like one. It's just that simple.
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A little while ago something changed for the better. It seems now it went back to what it used to be.
Sure, RCR can run her forum as she wishes. But if a forum owner writes a code of conduct and tells people they have to abide by it, said forum owner cannot fall upon those that are following it and say nothing to those who are violating it.
Or they can, but they are being illogical and making the Code of Conduct they created void. It would make sense to tell us if we should, or should not, follow said Code of Conduct and Mission Statement as we were told we had in March.
Today it seems it was not longer important to do so. Clarification would be important.
There is a minimum of expectations we all have in life. Same for being in a forum that states the inconditionals aplly to everyone and has rules. One expects those things to be followed.
OK, maybe that is to expect too much logic. ;) ::) :)
I'll give it to some of you, you have MLCers with very complicated OWs. However, maybe what should be asked is why are your MLCers with those women. What does the MLCer gains from such relationships? Still, the LBS cannot change the relationship between MLCer and OW/OM.
All the LBS can do, in case of need, is too protect his/herself and kids.
As a general rule, OW/OM is the person who was willing to be OW/OM.
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Maybe you guys should have a message board or a discussion forum set aside for your personal disagreements. You guys have gone back and forth arguing with each other so much that the thread itself and it's purpose has been lost. I am a newbie and would have loved to hear someone else has lost it and said hateful things to their ex after BD. I wouldn't feel so much same and regret if I understood maybe someone else did it to and was able to grow and heal from it. THE FEELING OF HATE IS REAL ! not constructive but it is a definite issue for some Newbies !
Maybe call the disagreement thread the Sandbox
I would love to hear discussion and disagreement but when it consumes the topic by personal attacks and thread police taking over i'd rather watch Springer !
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I am a newbie and would have loved to hear someone else has lost it and said hateful things to their ex after BD. I wouldn't feel so much same and regret if I understood maybe someone else did it to and was able to grow and heal from it.
A ton of us have. Let yourself off the hook, friend! The biggest screaming match happened the day the affair was confirmed. It was over the phone, and he went from full monster to breaking down. I'd been holding back emotions for months while he was out of the house acting like it was all my fault, trying to hide the affair. I let it all rip. Said some things I can't remember. Said a ton I can and will never forget. Sometimes I just took breaks to primal scream, then headed back in for more. I was in a full rager.
He started clinging again within a week. I apologized at one point. I clarified to him that my feelings were still very real, and I wasn't apologizing because I'd hurt him with them - I was apologizing because a rage that deep hurt ME even more. He was shocked at that notion, but acknowledged it.
It was only one day in this crisis and had no bearing going forward on any of his behaviors, choices, or outcomes. Trust me on that. In the time to come, I have no doubt you'll realize yours is the same. Hugs.
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Anjae please just drop it! The phrase beating a dead horse almost fits the bill.
You once again have severely hi-jacked a thread that could have benefited so many LBS’s desperately seeking support and have turned it into a post with your own motives and agenda. Please start a thread of your own to discuss your issues, and hurt and anything else that you feel you need to share.
People are reading this thread because of the title - it is appalling what has happened on this thread.
At the end of the day this is RCR’s “created” forum. She can do and say whatever she pleases. If people don’t agree with her they have a choice to either leave the site or accept what it is. I note your comment where you stated that she has been absent - yes that may have been true in the past, but it is evident that she has made it her business to be more present over the last 2 months due to many issues. Yes this forum is successful because of the hours that many contributors have selflessly volunteered over many years. Every member on HS has benefitted from the numerous posts and links. We have new posters coming on board regularly with updated theories and different ideas. MLC is not a OSFA situation - there are many variations. I personally love reading theories of newer posters and love the alternative perspective.
Anjae please allow this thread to get back on track. Please show respect to 1T.
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I am a newbie and would have loved to hear someone else has lost it and said hateful things to their ex after BD. I wouldn't feel so much same and regret if I understood maybe someone else did it to and was able to grow and heal from it.
A ton of us have. Let yourself off the hook, friend! The biggest screaming match happened the day the affair was confirmed. It was over the phone, and he went from full monster to breaking down. I'd been holding back emotions for months while he was out of the house acting like it was all my fault, trying to hide the affair. I let it all rip. Said some things I can't remember. Said a ton I can and will never forget. Sometimes I just took breaks to primal scream, then headed back in for more. I was in a full rage.
Oh yah.
Full on rage here, too. Once. After he said he was leaving. I let fly with everything I had. Which was rather a lot. He turned the tables, and made it all about poor him.
And held that one bout of rage as evidence of how difficult I am. I am sure the woman he is with now has heard how I "flew off the handle" and how much he needed to get away from the "miserable situation" he was living in.
Never mind that he had BD'd me and been raging for weeks.
Or that an extremely emotional situation might provoke an emotional response.
The thing is, I didn't like how "losing it" made me feel. Which started a long, hard, continuous journey to detaching my emotions from his actions. I didn't want to give him any more reasons to justify blaming me.
Or give myself any more reasons to think he was right, and it was all my fault.
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I was furious at Mr J, but no hateful things said by me. He was the hateful and violent one.
There were arguments before and after BD.
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Going back to the original intention of 1t's thread - as I understand it - is the wish to say it is ok and normal for some of us to want to vent our feelings about ow/om on HS and to make a space for that. Probably safer here than in RL lol.
Yes, I think most of us know intellectually that ow/om is not the sole cause of our spouse's behaviour. That if it wasn't them, it would be someone else like them. Most ow/om seem to be tripped over in a sense in easy places...coworkers or old friends. I think most of us also know there is a time when it is easier to be angry with ow/om than to accept the horror of what our spouse we love/d is doing. Or for some a time when we feel as if we are in some lose/win competition. And that there is a point when focusing too much on ow/on gives them a kind of virtual power that they often like and doesn't serve us.
But as LP says, anger is a valid emotion and can be a useful one. Depends what we do with it.
And not all ow/om are 'equal' in their effect on our lives beyond the reality of them being an ow/om.
Some HS posters experience a lot of disordered aggression or abuse from ow/om. Some are trying to protect kids from ow/om who have drink or drug issues. Some are trying to protect their finances or houses from ow/om who see these things as part of their 'pay off' from the affair. Some are stalked or threatened, directly or indirectly, or dealing with legal cases initiated by ow/om. Some can clearly see a pattern of how their spouses more extreme behaviour or monster is influenced by the agenda of ow/om. Some are trying to deal with practical things when communication with their spouse is controlled by ow/or or even obviously read/written by ow/om. So, on a practical level, for some LBS the ow/om IS a significant player in their life if an uninvited one. It seems normal and reasonable and healthy to me that HS is a place where you get to say that, where you get to not zip your lip, where you get to express your anger or ask for help in protecting yourself from crazy nasty people who want to hurt you or your kids.
My understanding of the 'code of conduct' is that we should not attack or dismiss or name call other posters. Doesn't bother me much if others want to call ow/om any rude name under the sun tbh. They are crappy people on a spectrum of crappiness and they have played a part in creating severe damage to our wellbeing...we get to call them a w***e or an a$$hole here if it makes us feel better or helps us manage our emotional reactions in RL.
At the same time, all of us have seen or done things that simply feed either ow/ow's sense of importance or taken us pain shopping for no LBS benefit. If we see posters cycling round that loop, particularly if they are doing so obsessively fixated on things like the deep meaning of ow's haircut or om's new car, then experience tells us to wave a flag. If only bc it rarely helps the LBS do what they need to do to survive and focus on what will actually help them. And disordered, immature or self-centred people like drama and attention but don't much like being ignored or treated as insignificant. But people have the right to ignore it and certainly have the right to feel whatever they feel about ow/om. (Although it seems to me that most of the really disordered crazy stuff comes from ow rather than om?)
In my case, I was never going to be a fan of someone who slept with my h but the responsibility for the affair was his. I was deeply hurt not just by the affair but also the realisation that my h had invited this stranger into our lives and told her things about me and my life that were private. I was sometimes shocked by snippets that showed the nature of their relationship and that did show me clearly that my h was no longer the same kind of person. But my anger and sometimes fear was bc she stalked me before I even knew she existed, sent me threats and nasty notes claiming to speak on behalf of my then h (who either knew or didn't, but didn't stop her), stole from me and evidently saw me as a threat to be destroyed. Long after I had stopped standing or wanting my h back. My recovery did require me to make some choices about how I handled that and how much it hurt me. I do not wish her well and tbh find her repulsive as well as pathetic, but I count it as a win that I did not let her actions drag me into a vindictive response. And sometimes that took a LOT of emotional self-control when I was exhausted, bewildered and heartbroken. So if I get to manage that by venting a bit about her on HS, that's good enough for me.
And I take silent comfort in the fact that she will ALWAYS be the second wife, that she married a man who can spend twenty years with people who loved him and then throw them all under a bus and that if the price of her love requires medication, psychiatrists, lies, destruction and cruelty to others it is not what I call love or would want in my life. And being a magic fix for a broken man who blew up his life and self respect to win you requires a lot of effort and energy. So, I suspect her karma bus is the unfolding reality of all of this. My xh's is probably a mixture of who she is, losing me (bc I am rather rare and splendid and loved him very much) and having erased twenty years of his own life story. I don't wish them well at all...I hope they have a hideous divorce in a few years that upends their lives as much as mine was upended.(my own L says this is almost inevitable from her experience lol) But whether that happens or whether they are blissfully happy in their self-created drama makes zero difference to my future life or happiness.
In the end, what I want most from ow is for her to f**k off out of my life. I resent that my h invited her in...i would like her to go back to being the uninteresting stranger that she is. In my case, no contact with both him and her is the easiest route to that.
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Newbie here and my first time posting, though I’ve been reading along for over a year now….
I’d like to start my own story thread sometime but have not yet due to h/ow online prying….
I love and second everything Treasur said about the spirit of this thread. I'd been writing a reply, but struggling to find the right words to say the same…that’s one of the things I love most here - finding my thoughts and feelings in this mess articulated so beautifully and perfectly and beyond anything I could come up with….
In my situation, I found this thread and the opening post to be of interest and felt frustrated by the turn things took.
To me, reading along, it is feeling rather like “don’t focus on the ow/m” has actually come to mean for some posters “don’t mention the ow/m”
Also, from what I’ve noticed, many posters (not all, and based only on the stories I am familiar with so far) who say that they “barely give ow/m a second thought” or that ow/m is just not part of their life, and “don’t focus on ow/m, don’t give them your energy/time/brain space etc” are in a situation where this approach is possible.
They may be many many years post BD, have no contact with their MLCer, have no children, be dealing with an ow/m who keeps to themselves, or have a personality/emotional resources etc that support this. Many LBSs who are seen as “focusing too much on ow/m” are not in these situations, and can benefit from somewhere to discuss their experiences and challenges with the ow/m.
In my own situation, I have kids who may at some point in the future, have to be around ow. This is a horrifying thought to me, and I feel it is part of my duty of care to my kids to know what they are dealing with. She also has kids in their early 20’s. My kids are lower primary aged and I would want to know more about ow kids as they have been raised by a mother who is proven to be severely lacking morally. So I value the experience of other LBSs who are/have been in this position...
I do wonder if in this case, on this thread, it was actually necessary for anyone to intervene at all? No one had even called an ow/m a nasty name...
Seems like maybe, if the concern is for someone who is stuck in hating and blaming the ow/m for the MLCer’s actions, posters here could help them by pointing this out when it is actually happening. Seems like what happened here was a bit of a preemptive strike, in case anyone might call ow/m a nasty name. As Treasure just said, I don’t really care what names ow/m gets called!
I don’t know, but a bit of me also wonders if we really need to protect the rights of ow/m to exist in a world where they are not called the occasional name on an internet forum, esp. an internet forum supporting LBSes? To me, 1trouble’s opening post referred to name calling of the ow/m, NOT of each other here on the forum. And as I understood it, was more about the occasional name, not a constant obsession.
Thank you 1trouble for starting this thread…I’ll be reading along :)
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Wow, this turned pretty explosive pretty quickly!
Anyway, the original topic is what I want to comment on.
My h lives with ow, I very rarely think about her and I have never had any contact with her.
I learned quite a lot from my younger years as my Father (God rest his soul), left my Mother for the world champion of evil ow!
My Mother never once called her anything and didn’t interact in any way with her. She just carried on with the dignity I know her for and left my Father to get on with it.
As a teenager I was taken to meet her along with my siblings and what a disaster area she was. I’m sure the term affair down was coined just for her. She tried endlessly to cause as much trouble for my Mother as possible and eventually caused my Father to have a nervous breakdown. I hated her with every fibre of my being and would openly either totally ignore her or be openly hostile.
My Father tried many times to return to my Mother but because of the way he had treated her prior to BD and later when my Mother moved on and met her now husband my Father was devastated.
The ow continued on her path of manipulation and control, even her own children have nothing to do with her. She was the epitome of evil, hated my Mother and is, tried to cause all kinds of trouble for my Mother by being evil to us, his children all in an effort to get my Mother to bite. She never once did.
I learned from my Mother that, in her opinion, to lower yourself to resorting in mud slinging with a class of person such as the ow is adding fuel to the fire of the “soulmates stick together “ scenario.
I think when my h dropped the bomb I was so shocked and devastated, as were we all, I was speechless.
I can well understand what it is to be that angry and I can empathise with the need to vent. I personally don’t see any harm in venting on here as it’s done to alleviate some of that anger at a time when it could be done in RL with consequences.
Just my opinion
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I find it interesting Shock, hearing your experience as a child with your father's ow, and especially with the way your mother handled things.
I've only once called ow a wh*r^, in a message to my dear friend shortly after BD, and I do feel a bit yuck about having done that now. Just for myself, I've nothing against anyone else using any name they want. But for me I was surprised that it felt yuck (as ow surely deserves it and no harm done) it just somehow does feel like what your mother said about lowering myself to ow's level, so I refer to her in RL as dismissively as possible just as h's affair woman, and here liked what Anon said on this thread about reserving capital letters for worthwhile people, so lower case ow/m.
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Exactly Ever,
The ow/om of this world are best left to it. I know from my earlier experience just what a total disaster these people are and I always remember my Mothers words.
I’m never going to lower my standards to be in a slanging match with a person not worthy of my time or thoughts so I just put all that energy into me.
Let the ow/om drag our mlcers into the hell they create and leave the LBS to find their peace.
God bless you all
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Maybe you guys should have a message board or a discussion forum set aside for your personal disagreements. You guys have gone back and forth arguing with each other so much that the thread itself and it's purpose has been lost. I am a newbie and would have loved to hear someone else has lost it and said hateful things to their ex after BD. I wouldn't feel so much same and regret if I understood maybe someone else did it to and was able to grow and heal from it. THE FEELING OF HATE IS REAL ! not constructive but it is a definite issue for some Newbies !
Maybe call the disagreement thread the Sandbox
I would love to hear discussion and disagreement but when it consumes the topic by personal attacks and thread police taking over i'd rather watch Springer !
Oh yeah I blew up as best I could. I was staying in a guest room when I finally got hold of his phone and saw all their texts, pics and stuff. I actually had enough sense to record everything. He came looking for his phone shortly after and we got into a wrestling match because he kept trying to snatch it from me. His parents were in the next room and I didn't want them knowing our business so I couldn't really even scream at him. But I did say a lot of extremely hurtful things. I remember I was shaking I was so angry and I couldn't release it. I wanted to punch and kick him. I even thought about bashing him in the head with a weight that was in the room. Yeah, I was out there :-\ :-\. I told him I was going to show his entire family his d*** pics ;D I was gonna fly to her parent's home and show them her pictures. Later on, I wanted to send them to her family on FB! I never did it though. All he did was cry and say he was sorry over and over. At one point I was scared I may have caught an std or something, and demaned he get tested. He had even texted her while we laid in bed together! Nasty ass b*****d! It was crazy.
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Everything in this thread comes down to detachment, the one basic thing that I advise every one when they arrive.
If you don't or can't do it then every other thing gets messed up.
The other person has an important role to play,
They are broken too and yet they might be interacting with
Our children.
So still can you detach?
If not why?
If you have an issue, how do you fix yourself if you are
So attached to it?
This is all I can say on everything at the moment.
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I am very saddened to see how this thread went after I went to bed...(it was 11pm in the UK)
It was suppose to be a safe place for discussion
Yes this is a discussion but frankly in some posts I see judgement and discouragement.....
And sadly, what I think some of you fail to realise is not everyone is so forthright.
There are some very fragile people on this board, just starting out their journey, there are others like BS who is dealing with so much crap in RL she needs a safe place here.....
There are others who read these boards and are frightened to post and when a thread goes, as this one has gone, I have no doubt they will not have the confidence to post.
I feel saddened the way this board continually seems to go this way lately and it is starting to discourage those who really need support to reach out and get it.
I partly expect this was going to happen, and that's why I opened the thread explaining why I felt it was necessary....If I had of left the name calling bit out, then I am sure something else would have derailed this thread because thats the way it seems to go lately.
When I read posts saying 'personally I never had a problem with the OW....' and "I realised its stopping my healing'...…
'and you should stop focusing on the OW'.....which I have seen on this hread and others ..
it really dismays me.....
Because those posts are, inadvertently, dismissing how some people are feeling OR making others feel somehow they are weak or inadequate for feeling how they do....have you ever thought of that?.................
There are some people who were gaslighted before BD there were some who were told they were never loved......and then saw their MLC walk out the door to be with the OW..........and for some (sadly) it has effected their self esteem.
There are some still being hounded by their OW or both their MLC'er and OW ....
(this has not been my experience BTW) but that doesnt stop me feeling huge compassion for those LBS's
I wanted to bring those all together here to talk about and share their experiences and to get support......
There are some, like BS, who have to hand their small children over to the OW ....there are some who have lost homes, livelihoods and everything in a blink of an eye .......and see the MLC'er and OW together .....supposedly living in 'paradise'.
and are finding it hard to move forward .....
They have every right to be angry and hurt and if some direct that toward the OW then why shouldnt they.....?
We all process stuff in our own time JUST BECAUSE IT WASN't YOUR EXPERIENCE DOES NOT MAKE IT RIGHT OR MAKE IT SO..
And just because you are forthright and have no problem saying how you feel, not everyone is the same.....so we need to step back here and be kinder and a bit more thoughtful toward others...…..a lot of the people contributing on this post have been here for a long time.....but I feel some people forget how they felt when they first come here and some are only seeing everything from their own experience...….IMO...
I hope now this thread can go forward in a more positive light and I hope it hasn't discouraged anyone who is struggling with the OW's presence from getting the support they need
And OP your latest post proves my point ..................Wheeling out these mantras regarding detachment and asking them why they cant detach ...….makes people who are struggling feel inadequate.....
it takes a very long time to get to detachment and along the way you need to vent.........and talk and share to get to that hallowed ground..
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Well, 1t, I think a lot of the responses here show that your instincts were right that some people need this space.
Imho OP is right about detachment. Ish.
DOING detachment and TRYING to acheive detachment and FEELING detachment are not the same. And some things are are a lot harder to Detach from.
I read an old post somewhere when someone said what they felt was a kind of 'furious sadness' which was about the carnage that had replaced what used to be their family's life. Pretty good phrase I thought.
It takes a lot of time to find our own version of detachment and some bits of it we may have to learn to live without.
I never imagined I would experience what it was like to receive graphic death threats.
In a way, I did detach from that bc it was so surreal....but ow was a player in that...and my detachment took me to the point of PTSD disassociation tbh where I no longer cared much about anything. So, I won my detachment good girl points but at a very high cost. Ditto, I have no words to explain what it is like to see and read about the soulmate wedding of someone who was your h literally weeks before, to see a public story in which almost two decades of your existence have been erased and diminished. I am pleased that I was detached enough to not do any of the things I wanted to do to scream that I was a real human and to p*ss all over their pretty story bc it would not have helped me for more than an hour. But oh my god, I wanted to...and that was less than a year ago.
Before real detachment comes acceptance I think. Surface acceptance at first and then layers and layers of shocked WTF moments before we get to a deeper kind of acceptance that we can feel instead of think. And then with that acceptance, probably the beginning of really feeling detachment.
I'm about 3 years in. I can do detachment. I have flickers of feeling it on a day to day level. But do I really feel detached from everything I lost, everything that shocked me so much, all of my fears and everything that happened? Not even close.
I am sat outside my mother's room right now, alone, bc she is not well. Is there a bit of me that resents that and feels that my mother deserved better from the sil she loved so much for so long? That ow was/is part of a situation that hurt and disrespected everyone who loved and supported my h and me? And do I feel angry at the idea of them enjoying a lovely weekend morning brunch say while I am here alone? Absolutely.
As 1t says, the path to our own version of detachment is a long tough one and venting and raging at the unfairness of it is part of that path for some. If being able to be honest here that we are NOT detached helps us to wisely ACT detached in RL in our own best interests, that is probably a good thing and it costs nothing for the rest of us to validate and virtually listen.
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I agree with everything Treasur and Evergreen said. They are my feelings, too.
Shock, I found your information on your father's OW very interesting. I think it's helpful to many of us to hear a first hand experience of what these OW are like. It makes me feel better for sure.
My H's OW is in my face, has caused problems with my kids, has sued my D and I, has written me disgusting messages but even if she hadn't, my feelings are my feelings.
About Old Pilot's post regarding why I can't detach, I no longer wonder or worry about this. Detachment is not something you can make yourself do, nor is there anything wrong with me since I haven't yet detached.
Yes, almost 5 years, and I haven't yet completely detached. I hope to get there one day, but it's not today. Is there something weaker about me than the LBS who detach quickly? Maybe. But it's not a fault nor is this something wrong about me. As an LBS, I have done nothing but question what I have done wrong during my marriage, after my marriage, and all my life. I have been nothing but gracious, hard working, done my best to survive, support my kids both financially and emotionally single handedly, so I'm not going to take on board that I still have something to correct in myself because I'm not detached. I loved my H. I trusted my H completely. He tells me he never loved me. He cheated on me. I am still attached. What does that make me? I don't know, but not some lesser person.
As I told another LBS in private, I could have handled H leaving me, I could have handled having to deal with supporting my kids by myself, but the affair totally destroyed me. It made me feel like I was ugly, uninteresting, stupid, not good enough in bed, not good enough as a partner, not someone anyone would be proud to be with, and I'm still struggling with these thoughts.
I know the affair is also my H's fault. I know he chose, as a married man, to unbutton his trousers. I did tell him this in the beginning. I'm always going on about my H and his bad behaviour, so I'm not protecting him or believing he is innocent. However, and I might be wrong, I get the impression on HS, that the OW is to be protected. We are not allowed to speak badly about her. Actually, we are frowned upon if we even mention her, so I don't. But I'm still thinking of her, so this virtual message that comes across on HS to not mention the OW because it will help the LBS get over her, hasn't worked for me. I'm just keeping quiet about it. But I do think that if I could let it out about her, it would help me. There are only so many times I can complain about something my H did without it becoming boring to me, or I'm desensitized about that matter eventually. Wouldn't it be great if I could reach that point with the OW, too.
I'm much better about OW now than I was at the beginning, I have learned from my mistakes, such as engaging with her. But hearing from others to not do this, didn't work. Like an addict, I had to see for myself. So I don't blame other LBSs who still engage with the OW, or spy her on social media, I did it, too, until I didn't. It's a progress we need to work out ourselves by trial and error.
I think there's nothing wrong with other LBSs offering advice on how to deal with the OW but then letting the LBS do it her way. Maybe I'm perceiving it wrong, but when we are told to ignore the OW, or she is just a symptom (which is a great message by the way), it feels like I'm less than because I still have emotions about the OW. I envy the LBSs who feel that the OW is nothing. I want to feel like that. I hope to get there one day, but in the mean time, I don't want to feel like I'm some crazy, drama desiring, vulgar ex-wife because I still talk about the OW.
And for the LBS who are still suffering freshly about the OW and the affair. I still call my H's OW disgusting names in private as in the car, or in my head. She is probably the worst person I've ever had to deal with in my life. Then I switch my image to a big red stop button and move on to other thoughts quickly before my heart starts palpitating, I turn red, get fuming mad, and ruin my day.
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I get what you’re saying Trouble. Well, I get it bc I can check most of those boxes.
2 kids, 30 years.
Gaslighting? Check.
He convinced me I was old and fat. He left me for a younger woman.
Lose everything? Check
His income was literally ten times mine, financially he had all the power.
Issues with the kids? Check
He and his family alienated me from my adult daughter. A mutual “friend” posted his wedding with the affair partner under one arm and my daughter who hasn’t spoken to me in five years under the other... all smiles.
Did I forget the pain? I remember it like it was yesterday.
That’s why I’m still here.
I remember what pushed me down, “the monkey-braining” and what gave me power, “focusing on myself.”
As an old-timer 98% of the time, I can skim through the same conversations that have been repeated on here in a million different ways over the years and hopefully gently (but maybe it’s not perceived that way bc of the pain) and recommend guidance to help the betrayed spouse find their way out of that dark cloud of pain.
I know... I’ve been there. I’ve done it.
Number one trick to get back your power?
Firetrucking take it.
How?
Stop publicly calling the affair partner a dumb-dumb-stupid-head (or home wrecker, or ow, or Voldemort, to the public they all sound the same,... weak and pathetic) and address them with the most powerful tool you have...
Silence.
I know this through experience. I’m not being dismissive to newbies pain, I’m letting them know, it’s normal to vent, it’s normal to make mistakes, I did it too but there’s a better way. It’s not much different than watching a 3-yr-old about to touch a hot stove. “Hey, don’t touch, that’s gonna burn”. Hopefully they won’t touch, if they do, well, hopefully they will realize my words came from experience.
You don’t like my advice? Keep scrolling.
You have a different opinion and would like to discuss? Again, that’s why I’m here. Ask away. If your a newbie, and afraid to ask publicly, send me a message. You’re not weak, just rightfully so, in a lot of pain. I read this forum for over a year before I was strong enough to post. I get it, I remember, and I hope I can help.
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When my mother cried this morning and asked where my h was (bc dementia means he is still my h in her head)..I wanted both of them to burn in hell with my mother's sad frail confused face on a constant video loop. And I would have punched anyone who said I 'should' feel anything different than how I felt. As Milly says, there are so many places in RL where we have to drink the STFU smoothie....I hope that HS is always a place where 2x4s are reserved for our actions as LBS not our feelings.
My feelings change nothing practically but part of my power as Nah describes is that I get to feel whatever the f**k I feel. As an adult, I am responsible for what I do with those feelings but I get to feel them and to resent the situation created to please others that caused me and my mother today such distress.
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Yes, anger is normal and needs a place to go.
Personally, I attack other people’s affair partners all the time.
Surprised?
I never said I was perfect. ;)
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Fantastic but not perfect is just fine, Nah ;)
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Dealing with BD/MLC is dealing with Grief.
For a good number of us - the BD will lead to the end of our marriages - and our spouse will end up with the OW/OM.
In a way it is very similar to the death of a spouse - only worse - because in death the person left you - but not willingly.
The death of a spouse usually does not involve betrayal, gas lighting, etc.
Yet even in the death of a spouse - there are the 5 stages of Grief and one of them is Anger.
Why then do we deny the Anger when we are healing from BD?
In terms of the LBSer - anger can take many forms.
It can be anger at the MLCer, anger at the OW.
It can also at certain stages of healing can be anger at ourselves for being a self perceived doormat or for not healing "fast enough".
It can be anger at God - how could God let this happen?
It can be anger at others for not understanding why we just don't "get on with out lives (6 months after the BD - sheez ::) )
It can be anger at our kids for accepting the MLCers behavior - or for accepting the other woman.
In some instances - it is simply a phase and it will dissipate on its own - just like denial and depression.
In some cases it is helpful to have a therapist assist us in working through the stages of grief.
But anger is a necessary phase - and to deny it is harmful because it will simply crop up somewhere else at a later date.
Many LBSers have been fixers or placaters. They learned to smooth things over in life.
I was one of the types of people. It took a very long time for me to find and acknowledge my anger.
In my upbringing - anger under any circumstances was deemed "wrong".
This is why I think there was no fighting in my marriage - neither of us understood how to deal with anger so we suppressed it.
My MLCer never expressed anger - and never told me he was frustrated or unhappy - until BD.
And then full monster came out.
Think about that a minute - monstering is a reaction to having a lot of pent up anger that was never expressed.
And once that monster is out of the box - it is like a hurricane.
That is not healthy.
So I think it is important to acknowledge your anger.
And acknowledging it means feeling it - giving it voice.
This forum is supposed to be a place for healing.
It will be a very sad situation if we can't allow a healthy amount of anger be voiced here at the appropriate times.
It is very true that eventually not focusing on the OW/OM is the final goal - but that happens usually with time.
It is fine to preach about detachment - but detachment is a long process.
You can't simply wake up one day and say - "Ok, from now on I am going to be detached."
It doesn't work that way.
I have in the early phases of my recovery from BD referred to the OW as "pond scum" or "parasite" on my HS threads.
In 2015-16 no one had any problem with that on this forum.
Many of us had "pet names" for the OW and our MLCer.
I called my MLC "OB" for Ostrich-boy because he stuck his head in the sand when it came to dealing with issues.
It was harmless and sometimes the names LBSers gave were funny.
It was a way of letting off steam.
Yes, it is possible to go too far with anger. If you are running out slashing OW/OMs tires - that is a crime.
Unfortunately, for at least one poster here - the name calling resulted in a felony charge.
But these are not the norms.
The normal venting of anger should be accepted as part of the healing process.
Stages of grief in terminal illness[edit]
The stages, popularly known by the acronym DABDA, include:[6]
Denial – The first reaction is denial. In this stage, individuals believe the diagnosis is somehow mistaken, and cling to a false, preferable reality.
Anger – When the individual recognizes that denial cannot continue, they become frustrated, especially at proximate individuals. Certain psychological responses of a person undergoing this phase would be: "Why me? It's not fair!"; "How can this happen to me?"; "Who is to blame?"; "Why would this happen?".
Bargaining – The third stage involves the hope that the individual can avoid a cause of grief. Usually, the negotiation for an extended life is made in exchange for a reformed lifestyle. People facing less serious trauma can bargain or seek compromise. Examples include the terminally ill person who "negotiates with God" to attend a daughter's wedding or an attempt to bargain for more time to live in exchange for a reformed lifestyle.
Depression – "I'm so sad, why bother with anything?"; "I'm going to die soon, so what's the point?"; "I miss my loved one; why go on?"
During the fourth stage, the individual despairs at the recognition of their mortality. In this state, the individual may become silent, refuse visitors and spend much of the time mournful and sullen.
Acceptance – "It's going to be okay."; "I can't fight it; I may as well prepare for it."
In this last stage, individuals embrace mortality or inevitable future, or that of a loved one, or other tragic event. People dying may precede the survivors in this state, which typically comes with a calm, retrospective view for the individual, and a stable condition of emotions.
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I’m not sure if we are all talking about the same thing.
Yes, anger is useful and a necessary tool for healing.
In other groups I’m often attacked by what I call the “forgiveness police.” Many people who don’t get it, want the betrayed to jump from shock to forgiveness.
No, it’s normal to cry, punch things, make mistakes, etc.
Someone on this thread said they vent about the affair partner while they’re driving. Perfectly normal.
All I’m saying is publicly, on Facebook, to the MLCer and ESPECIALLY the affair partner...
Hold your head up high and don’t give them one crumb of satisfaction. Venting directly at them gives them exactly what they want. Attention that they “won”
You will get so much more satisfaction in the long run with them looking back at you wondering why you don’t care. You might have to pretend at first, in time it becomes your reality.
It’s repeated often, bc it’s true...,
The best revenge is living a good life.
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onward,
exactly. dehumanize an ow! whats wrong with that. ? i am not calling anyone names on here. im strictly talking about ow. and yes swearing helps. same difference in my opinion in calling ow names . and i dont know anyone on here doing it ALL THE TIME.
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I haven’t really commented on here because I didn’t like the way the discussion was going and more times than I care to remember we have witnessed this in-fighting which saddens me!
When I came to this site 7 or so years ago it was a warm, caring place to be. I don’t remember anyone verbally attacking anyone else’s posts!
Lately there seems to be a lot of nastiness and aggression creeping in which to someone who’s feeling fragile and vulnerable isn’t a pleasant experience!
Personally I’ve always had a ‘name’ for my H’s other women bar one because I felt they were all vile, ghastly woman who my children hated! Only one seemed a nice lady but she didn’t last long and from what I know my H hurt her and her young children deeply. Having names for the other OW was my way of coping/dealing with it. It was for me! I wasn’t making them important but I couldn’t bring myself to use their actual names so I gave them other names.
I’ve barely felt much anger throughout my H’s crisis - I’m not any angry person. I’m loving, caring and generally happy. Someone referred to me recently as a sunny person. I am slow to anger. Maybe I’m the odd one out but I just don’t really feel angry. All I’ve ever really felt is huge, deep sadness for what my H did to us, our life, finances, home, children etc!
I think none of us should fear what we post or what someone else may say. I only object if another poster is aggressive, rude or just downright nasty.
Discussion threads on the whole are useful. I just can’t see why they often deteriorate into bitter arguments
X
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1Trouble, in the spirt of discussion, I wanted to explore some of this a little further with you.
Yes this is a discussion but frankly in some posts I see judgement and discouragement.....
I'm sincerely not sure which posts those are. One person's judgement can be another's wise counsel, and at some point it is important to recognize that what you see (the collective you, not you you) is exactly that - what you see.
And sadly, what I think some of you fail to realise is not everyone is so forthright.
True not everyone is, but do you see that there is a little judgement in your statement, too?
I mention it, not start an argument, but as an example that judgement can be found everywhere if one looks or that is what one is pre-disposed to see.
There are some very fragile people on this board, just starting out their journey, there are others like BS who is dealing with so much crap in RL she needs a safe place here.....
There are others who read these boards and are frightened to post and when a thread goes, as this one has gone, I have no doubt they will not have the confidence to post.
This is true, and good to be mindful
I feel saddened the way this board continually seems to go this way lately and it is starting to discourage those who really need support to reach out and get it.
I partly expect this was going to happen, and that's why I opened the thread explaining why I felt it was necessary....If I had of left the name calling bit out, then I am sure something else would have derailed this thread because thats the way it seems to go lately.
Or, maybe the name-calling bit is exactly what concerned folks. I don't know.
But it's possible that encouraging people to call the OW/OM names lends the impression that it is OK to call people names. And that spills onto the forum. And that concern about the arguing is shared.
When I read posts saying 'personally I never had a problem with the OW....' and "I realised its stopping my healing'...…
'and you should stop focusing on the OW'.....which I have seen on this hread and others ..
it really dismays me.....
OK -- can you share why it dismays you?
If someone has personally never had a problem, that is their truth. If someone shares that they realized it's stopped their healing, that is their truth. And isn't sharing the range of things that helped our healing important?.
Because those posts are, inadvertently, dismissing how some people are feeling OR making others feel somehow they are weak or inadequate for feeling how they do....have you ever thought of that?.................
Are they? Or is that a perception?(she says gently)
If someone sincerely experienced healing by NOT venting about the OP, or by stopping venting about the OP, how is that dismissive or calling someone weak?
There are some people who were gaslighted before BD there were some who were told they were never loved......and then saw their MLC walk out the door to be with the OW..........and for some (sadly) it has effected their self esteem.
This I know is true. Because it's my truth.
There are some still being hounded by their OW or both their MLC'er and OW ....
(this has not been my experience BTW) but that doesnt stop me feeling huge compassion for those LBS's
I wanted to bring those all together here to talk about and share their experiences and to get support......
Not my experience either. As I've said earlier, support comes in many forms, and experience does, too. I've found that venting actually hurts me more than it helps me. If someone wants to vent, go ahead and vent.
But do you not want me to talk about my experience -- or the sharing of that experience - because you think it isn't compassionate? It's quite compassionate if one can see the message as 'I have found that venting makes me hurt more, not less, and I don't want to see you hurt more, either."
There are some, like BS, who have to hand their small children over to the OW ....there are some who have lost homes, livelihoods and everything in a blink of an eye .......and see the MLC'er and OW together .....supposedly living in 'paradise'.
and are finding it hard to move forward .....
They have every right to be angry and hurt and if some direct that toward the OW then why shouldnt they.....?
Sadly, this is the experience that binds pretty much all LBS' together.
We all process stuff in our own time JUST BECAUSE IT WASN't YOUR EXPERIENCE DOES NOT MAKE IT RIGHT OR MAKE IT SO..
Completely agree
And just because you are forthright and have no problem saying how you feel, not everyone is the same.....so we need to step back here and be kinder and a bit more thoughtful toward others...…..a lot of the people contributing on this post have been here for a long time.....but I feel some people forget how they felt when they first come here and some are only seeing everything from their own experience...….IMO...
Your feelings are your own, and you have every right to feel them. But none of us really know the motivation, memory or intention of another unless we ask and they have a chance to clarify.
I hope now this thread can go forward in a more positive light and I hope it hasn't discouraged anyone who is struggling with the OW's presence from getting the support they need
And OP your latest post proves my point ..................Wheeling out these mantras regarding detachment and asking them why they cant detach ...….makes people who are struggling feel inadequate.....
it takes a very long time to get to detachment and along the way you need to vent.........and talk and share to get to that hallowed ground..
Speaking only from my experience, I found the concept of detachment one of the things that helped from the very beginning. Being reminded to detach never made me feel inadequate. It definitely frustrated me that I found it hard to detach. I would mutter to myself A LOT: "detach, detach, detach'.
Detachment is the encouragement my LBS friends used, and still use, to help me find solid ground on the days when I still struggle and want to scream.
I'm not bringing this up to disregard any one, or dismiss them, or discourage them. Only in wholehearted agreement that we all must and will find our way. And not everyone's way is the same.
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Nice post Onward.
Maybe it’s bc I’m the youngest of five so I have thick skin.
Very rarely do I read a post that angers me, even if it’s directed straight at me. I have often been needlessly defended by others bc someone disagrees with my opinion. It’s just an opinion. I also notice posters often referring to the “good old days” on here when everyone got along. Ummm.., no, people are people and I’ve seen the disagreements have been going on since I can remember.
Anyways.,,
Personally I feel most posters (esp the long timers) come from a caring place, most write with respect, sometimes we are trying to be helpful but might not put it on the right words (I’ve done this) and I have often seen people apologize.
Hey, we all have something in common, our hearts have been broken, but we still have enough left to at least try to lift up the ones behind us.
I appreciate you. <3
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That is right. EVERYONES WAY IS NOT THE SAME . So once again , if some want to vent (call ow names) why has this thread become about which way is right or wrong regarding healing? I just dont get it. its just a way to get anger out. if i choose to beat a wall , who cares? if i choose to call ow names , who cares? let lbs go through the grieving process the way it works for them. I just dont get how this can be an arguement / disagreement.
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Sorry for any confusion…I posted this earlier and then panicked and un-posted….seems that for me currently, the process of carefully going over things, trying to find the right words, hoping that what I am meaning to say is what I will be understood to be saying etc is a bit much like writing emails to my h early on, trying to sort things out regarding our children and finances….
This was before I realised that however well thought out, reasonable, kind etc MY messages were, h/ow would come back with whatever crazy/irrelevant/monster/awfulness they were going to anyway...
Also with h/ow and the online prying, I don't feel particularly safe posting and am struggling to balance enough information to make sense here, with enough information to identify me...
What I posted earlier was a question, particularly for anyone who has needed to use a private investigator or similar to find out more about ow/m.
Though thinking about it now, I'm not even sure this thread is the right place to ask this? My apologies if it's not...
I don’t have a story thread yet, so a little background:
BD was late 2017, found out about ow (BD2) a couple of months later. H now lives with ow, I moved out with our kids. I have had legal advice.
Our kids are lower primary school aged, ow has kids in their early 20’s - she is older than me, possibly older than h who is 8 years older than me (I’m late 30’s). H is now “Mom’s cool rocker boyfriend” to her kids and barely sees his own - twice for 1/2 an hour each time in the past 9 months, doesn’t even phone them. I contact h infrequently regarding our kids and finances. He almost never contacts me. A Semi-Vanisher maybe?
Anyway, h’s new MLC friends (who he met ow through) are not a particularly appealing crowd - drugs, restraining orders, abandoned children etc. and I know there are drugs with h and ow.
So when/if h remembers that he has kids and wants to see them or if ow pushes to get involved (she wrote h’s emails early on regarding our children and financial matters (I know this, not suspicion) and I believe also influenced h to question my care of our kids) I would want to know more about what my children are dealing with. Ideally I’d delay them meeting ow for any length of time I possibly could.
So, anyone who has used a PI to find out about ow/m, what was your experience?
I’m guessing the legalities/logistics of what information can be found will be different country to country, but did you find useful information in your situation?
What impact did knowing so much more about ow/m have on you?
I get that this is next level “focusing on the ow/m”, and is only something I would consider in the interests of protecting my children. I’m also interested in hearing reasons why doing this is a very bad idea, or any other things it would be good to consider.
Thankfully this is not something I am needing to do right now, but as someone who likes to have all the information, and some time to sit with things and to know what to look out for/what questions to ask etc, I thought I’d see what others may have experienced….
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I have refrained from posting on this thread because my H had no ow.
So I never, thank the Lord above, felt the rage that many of you have had to go through.
If my H had found an alienator, would I have called her names? Knowing me, probably. Would I have felt bad about it? Probably not.
I have no idea what I would have done, but I sure as heck don't blame one person on here, male or female for venting or raging about these parasites. Some of them have been positively horrible people.
I have used "pond scum" when referring to someone's ow more than once. So sue me. That's what I personally think of these people. Scum.
They may not be the right person to blame, as a matter of fact their not, they made no vows to us, but they were part of the "team" who helped break up the marriage. What kind of people are they? They knew, or found out, these were married people who in most cases had children. How do they justify being with these MLCers?
Calling them broken, selfish or desperate is spot on.
Btw I loved Airmid's post, and also yours Nah. You not perfect? ;D Who knew.
The Hero's Spouse Mission Statement. Love each other, Love your Spouses and Love yourselves.
No where does it say to love the alienator.
Also I can find no where in the Code of Conduct that states you can not call an alienator a name.
Maybe I missed it.
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Hi Evergreen
Thank you for posting and I am so sorry for the situation you find yourself in x
I used a PI when I realised my MLC'ers OW wasn't healthy and she knew who I was and where I lived, but at the time I knew nothing about her so for me it was protection, if I needed it.
All I had to go on was her phone number.
The PI said they maybe able to get all they needed from the phone number BUT if it was a pay as you go mobile then they would need to do more investigation.
The agreement was the £400.00 would cover whatever they needed to do whether it was simple or whether they had to do other things (Which I wont go into on here) .
All I wanted to know was who she was and where she lived, to put me on a level footing with her
As it turned out they came back an hour later with what I needed to know and her facebook page.
I realised as soon as I saw her picture, she had been in my road a few weeks before which unnerved me a bit
Personally it was the best £400.00 I spent
Keep posting Evergreen xx
Thunder great post xx
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Also I can find no where in the Code of Conduct that states you can not call an alienator a name.
Maybe I missed it.
Thunder, perhaps this is only my interpretation, it is from the Mission Statement, not the Code of Conduct concerning name calling, either to the OW, other forum members, our MLCer, their families..in other words being respectful to others.
Teaching and encouraging Agape and Forgiveness for all people and all situations.
We make no judgments; all are welcome. This is a place of love and support, not a place to degrade and insult others—including your MLC spouse.
The topic of this thread is not an issue. The need to vent, to be angry, to have a place to let off steam is understandable.
Respectful discussion is always welcomed but language is important. Obviously, there is a very large divide over this issue..it is a very sensitive one for many and some posters feel the need to use degrading terms in reference to the OW/OM.
Many have expressed why they don't consider that to be helpful to the LBSer and certainly the insults towards other HS members is very sad to see.
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Thank you so much for your reply 1trouble
I'm sorry you were in a situation where you needed to use a PI too, but good to hear that it was money well spent...I suspect I would feel the same, and also as you say, see it a bit like insurance...protection if you end up needing it. It's so disturbing though, that she had been in your road!
I did a bit of my own investigating right after I found out and ended up with her address, last name and fb page. I already had her phone number and picture from h's phone.
So I guess it's more of a background check I'm after. Anyone else that I didn't already know well, who was going to be around my children (day care, nanny etc) I would absolutely get a police check on.
Maybe I'll start by finding out from a PI what they can do in my situation, and the costs...
Thanks again 1t xx
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I don’t have a story thread yet, so a little background:
Thanks for having the courage to post, welcome to the board.
I encourage you to start posting(on your own thread) and being able to learn from us and to also share your knowledge.
I hate to meet people like this but I will also tell you that even though you see some arguing here that this is one of the best places to share your story.
Since you are a subscriber you can also share on that board which adds a little more privacy.
Again welcome to the place that none of us wanted to ever be.
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I just found this thread today and it is 10 pages of insanity that I thought had a lot of promise. I have highly edited the following post to take some truthful stings out. I hope the message comes across without setting anyone off into a tail spin. ::)
Personally I think there SHOULD be a place where people can vent all their negative feelings about OM/OW. There is a prevalence for people (as seen here) to jump on the ''your not allowed to talk about them'' bandwagon. We all know the reasons that YOU feel they shouldn't be spoken about, but maybe someone else NEEDS to say it...to get it out.. and get healed.
I know I for one personally have no need to speak about her. That is just because I have already dissected it and seen it for what it was very very early. I have healed that small portion of it. But if it comes to the situation where she starts to interact with my kids I will lose my $h!te probably. And I really don't care if people don't like it. Because losing my $h!te on here is better then losing my $h!te in real life.
On the other side we also have to agree that if you get stuck in focusing on them for a long time, if you are acting out in ''real life'', if you are being hostile and name calling...and that is where all the rage and anger is focused...then it will never heal. That is looking for a scapegoat for the problem.
The OM/OW is an @$$hole. Plain and simple. They engaged with a married person, they continued a relationship they knew would cause pain. They are selfish and deeply character flawed. If you need to come on here and scream and shout and name call and get it all out...you should be able to do that...but then you should be able to move on. Don't sit around doing that for years on end because that means you are just as stuck as the MLCer. And no matter who the OM/OW was or is... no matter how $h!tety they behaved...the problem is in fact in our spouse.
There is a lot of ''pack'' and ''bandwagon'' mentality for silencing people on here. Not just for OM/OW talk but many other issues. I have noticed it, and generally tend to avoid it and not interact because it is of no use to me. You can not truly learn if you only look at things from one perspective.
How can you know what is truly happening on a farm for instance if you constantly listen to the ''baaing of sheep''. You need to see from the sheep's point of view, but also from the Shepard, and the sheep dog, and the wolves. Only then can you piece together the whole picture and find the truth.
One case of MLC does not equal a whole. That includes HB or RCR, or any of the well known and respected veterans. Anjae, Stayed, Barbie, RCR....all have very different MLCers. Would anyone dare to tell one of these ladies that their MLCer is not a MLCer because ''mine didn't do x, y, or z''?? Absolutely not. Individual details do not matter, patterns do.
At the same time I find it almost disturbing how much people seem to almost worship RCR and HB. They wrote some good $h!te, they made decent articles, they managed to get through and provide guidance to lost people. They got us together in a place we can share, and heal, and grow. They deserve a great deal of respect for that. But some people show almost a reverence that is unreal. They were just people too. They were women in pain, they firetrucked up...they made mistakes...they still do. Stop expecting them to be super human. Stop telling other's that they can't do stuff X way because ''RCR did it Y way''.
People need to feel they have a voice. People need to know they can get out their darkness, and their pain, and their fear....without being judged, or bullied, or shut up. Sometimes they need a 2x4, sometimes they don't need you to pander to their ego or fragile self esteem. But sometimes...they just need to have a laugh and vent.
As for the name calling in the policy...pretty sure that is mostly for us to each other. Not a LBS to an OM/OW. It isn't likely a OM/OW is going to be here reading it and get offended. We aren't supposed to call each other names, we aren't supposed to call our MLCer names, and probably not start entirely bashing the OP 24/7....but that doesn't mean you can't vent about the OP. How is that not entirely obvious? Why does RCR need to spell it out for us like we are school age children?
And if you really wanna get picky and literal about the rules... scroll down to ''Inflaming and provoking conflict''. Constantly coming into EVERY conversation to tell people how they are wrong for feeling how they feel is pretty close to that in my opinion. How can we tell someone they CAN'T have a discussion thread because it doesn't fit OUR view point? Particularly when there was a disclaimer AT THE BEGINNING asking people to allow this space to be for said reason. The same people do it, in the same way. Every time. ::)
I have a deep respect for the people who spend their time giving guidance and help on HS. I know it must take a lot of work both physically and emotionally. Without these people a lot of people would be stuck and lost in pain, unable to heal and get through this. But I do not think ''time served'' gives anyone a higher status that they are not to be told when they are wrong.
At the end of the day we are all adults. We shouldn't need to have good behaviour spelled out for us. We should be able to actively tell people they are out of line, and they should be able to constructively use that...apologise...debate...move on. None of us are here because we are perfect. None of us will get out of this unless we accept that sometimes we are wrong. Because it is only noticing the wrongs, fixing them, that we grow and learn.
Stop taking everything so literal, learn to lighten up, learn to channel your rage and pain...learn to accept you are not always right. Then grow and get the firetruck out of here. 8)
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Thank you for the welcome OldPilot :)
I'll keep working towards a story thread, here or on the other board...
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My goodness. What happened here???
It sure seems to be alot judgemental people here lately. My morning coffee just turned bad. Good Lord.
I think main issue is a few people have issues with each other. It's been going on lately. I wish y'all could work things out.
Father5 you may be a newbie but you said it best my friend. I hope they listen.
Evergreen, as OP said this is a great place and it's helped me survive. Please keep posting.
I love this site. Main thing people need to think about is what the great NAH said. WE ARE NOT PERFECT, nobody is!!! Nah , you've never made me mad. But you sure made me laugh a few times. Ha.
I hope every one can get back on track. I sure miss my morning peace moments.
Have a good weekend my friends
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Good discussion. Anger is NORMAL. Controlled anger comes in time. As long as we continue to grow and learn, then it's all good. Getting stuck in any ONE spot is the enemy. Then life becomes like ground hog day.
Sounds like a lot of growing and learning is happening. Good.
Hugs Stayed
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I locked this thread to give a cool down period for everyone and time for me to decide what to do with it.
These days I am trying to address one thing at a time, I am not pulling in so many quotes and I am trying to write shorter posts. Sometimes I fail, but what seems more problematic is that I don’t get to all the issues at once or I don’t answer everyone’s concerns or questions at once.
My initial response was meant to say that I do not have a problem with a thread that is on the topic of the alienator.
In saying that I was not trying to say anything else-such as that we should or should not name-call, rage, vent bully, research, discuss…
Had I started this topic I would not have made it an open invitation to name-call. I might have said it could be a place to vent which is why I did not include rant in what I might not suggest since rant seems to me a synonym to vent.
Off on a tangent for a moment about name-calling. Since this was what seemed (to me) to be what got people the most riled up, I’ve been thinking about it a lot these last 24+ hours. I think it is subjective and to make no name-calling a rule would be too controlling as well as confusing. At DB I called Chuck Sweetheart. Technically that was a name I was calling him. But yes, when we use that term—name-calling—we are talking about negative names. But what about names that are not positive, but not really derogatory—perhaps neutral? Some of the names I recall from D were Peter Pan and Ghost. In an earlier post on this thread, Airmid told us she called her MLCer Ostrich-Boy and she said it was a pet-name. If it’s a pet-name, is it okay? She also said she called the alienator parasite and pond scum. I’ve seen several use pond scum over the years. I wonder if it is because I have not edited that out of my articles or we all think alike! I know I edited it out of the manuscript years ago, but originally I had a section about the alienator with the heading Pond Scum. I did remove it because I did not want to be derogatory—and clearly there was a time when I was—and because it was not professional. I understand when you guys use derogatory terms, but please do not take understanding for endorsement.
Yes, we need to step carefully with the nicknames we give our MLCer and the alienator, so some could be edited out by a moderator and you may be asked not use them, others will pass.
A few of you mentioned that you felt the no name-calling was more about not using it against board members. Yes, that is also true—though that negate anything I said above. Honestly I even get lost with the initials we give to shorten board names. At DB I spent 3 months confused about SA3—what did it mean—I searched the glossary of acronyms to no avail; everyone but me seemed to know. Well, it was StillAlone3 and I felt pretty stupid when I figured it out—since the context made it clear to most others!
I did not address the gestapo comment in my initial post because I was trying to stay on the specific topic of saying the thread topic was okay AND because it was so egregious to require more than a post. I am trying to keep issues that lead to action regarding The Code of Conduct more private. And I just failed at that by mentioning it here and yet you need to know something is being done—basically damned either way!
I am sorry that my use of the word policing/police may have seemed to endorse the comment. That was not my intention and I was not even connecting them together until someone kindly pointed it out to me—though her auto correct went awry and I got to read that my comment of please sing was like an endorsement. I didn’t get it until I said it fast a few times…a strange time for a laugh, but I needed it. I asked if there is a better word and she said policing is actually fine and fits the context—it was just unfortunate to come when there was that gestapo reference and so got connected. I looked up synonyms after she pointed out the connection and found nothing better or that seemed as accurate.
The calling out of one poster by another by saying you had a sweepstakes when that person would show up…
That post was removed. It was inflammatory and helped send this thread into the conflict-ridden gutter. Whether you felt certain that person would show up to contradict or bully or police or whatever; the only purpose in saying it was to be mean and incite more conflict.
In my initial post I addressed Anjae personally.
Why?
Why not Xyzcf also?
If I was calling Anjae out, why not call out the gestapo comment too—I edited that comment out, but it remains in a ton of quotes and I’m not sure what to do about that, so have not edited those posts.
Well, in my mind I was talking to Anjae, not calling her out. I was trying to explain why I did not have a problem with the thread topic? Why not include Xyzcf then? Good point. I didn’t think of it—after reading through I was responding to what was closest to my post and Anjae seemed to me to be a leader of the side which seemed against the topic. We also have a history together, so I felt comfortable talking to her. I have a history with Xyzcf too, so probably should have included her.
Xyzcf has since (on the mod board) offered an explanation for her initial post which helps me to understand better where she (and others I assume) was coming from.
A thread to discuss the alienator is fine with me. When I read 1trouble's first post though, I immediately became concerned at what she was proposing, concerned because it crosses many borders of decency that create turmoil.
I think that is an excellent point—and the thread di go off the rails. Before reading Xyzcf’s post on the mod board, I just thought she felt a thread topic discussing the alienator should not be allowed.
For each of us our attention may be drawn to different things a person says. For me the comment that really rang true was this:
Its my opinion that you have to get to a point of acceptance and detachment and to do that you have to understand and that may mean going round and round talking about something until you understand it.
I’ve said this basic thing so many times and to me it is a perfect reason why a thread like this is acceptable. The name-calling comments took a back-seat to me. I did not agree with them as an endorsement as they came-off, but the other comment just took more center stage and so I took less notice of the name-calling comment.
I have debated whether to remove the off-topic posts and continue this thread—getting it back on track, or archiving it and starting a new thread instead. I think I will start a new thread with my own explanations to avoid suggestions of things like name-calling… as what you should do. Maybe you will do that, but it doesn’t need to be endorsed. I will not start it right now—got to get going. Maybe tonight or tomorrow. I want to take the time to craft my opening post.
I have probably missed some points I had wanted to comment on as I read and I am sorry if I have not addressed something you feel is important.