Midlife Crisis: Support for Left Behind Spouses
Archives => Archived Topics => Topic started by: zinger on June 17, 2011, 07:30:33 PM
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First, let say that I am standing. However, I have been thinking about how my H must think I am crazy for not having served him with divorce papers. I have been pretty dark with communication, I have stated my belief that we can create a new and better marriage and that it is in the best interest of our daughters for us to remain a family. I just think that he must think I am so pathetic for choosing to stand despite his atrocious behvavior towards me and our 2 daughters. I sometimes wonder that if he comes out of his MLC, will having divorced really prevent him from coming home? I know several people who when their spouse started an affair and chose not to work on the marriage began divorce proceedings. In 2 cases, the WAS/MLCer (not sure if they were MLCs although both situations sound very much like MLC to me) ultimately asked for a second chance with the LBS. One accepted their WAS and the other did not. I guess I just wonder if in some respects, we LBS who stand and don't initiate a divorce are hurting ourselves by not telling our MLCers in no uncertain terms that we will not tolerate a marriage where our spouses are not 100 percent committed to us. We all say that when MLCers return, we have to create a new marriage anyway, so I guess I'm wondering why not say unequivocally to our spouses, "This marriage is over since you refuse to return and commit to this marriage" and then if the divorce happens or they return before it goes through, you can start a new marriage with a new commitment? Thoughts???????
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Zinger
I cant tell you what to do only my thoughts on your question. I believe that asking for a divorce is the worst thing you can do . Your H could take you up on the offer then what would you do ? He might not even being thinking about a divorce so why plant the idea ? It hasn't been that long since he moved out. I know it feels like forever but around here a few months is a drop in the bucket. My H left January 2011. Yes it knocked me on my a-- but I am still breathing and things are getting a little easier most days.
hang in there you can make it
Hugs :)
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Dear Zinger,
First, a divorce is really really expensive and I agree it can put ideas into their heads. Unless there is a financial reason or you want out of the marriage, asking for a divorce is not going to push him through the tunnel any faster.
I did file for a legal separation because my H left the country and I could no longer trust anything that he said or did. He told me he no longer wanted to be marriaed to me and we both looked at one another and said..well, what do we do?And we said, I guess we need to see a lawyer..my appointment was before his so I beat him to it.
He's had 9 months to stop this but he continues to want his freedom..he knows I absolutely believe that this is the wrong decision for us.
But I am 56 years old and hav only worked 2 years part time over the last 8 years due to his job promotions and he has this crazy fascination with Asia where he could easily run to next..besides, I also worked hard for our money and I did not wish to see one cent spent on another women.
So, unless you have some fears ..I would not initiate a divorce expecting that it might cause him to return. Just keep a close watch on your finances.
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Z, I had no idea what to do at BD, but he told me he found his soulmate and was TAKING my kids. So yup, I raised the spectre of divorce and called my attorney the next day. I was totally freaked that he could take them from me--I mean I was a stay at home mom with no real income. I also knew that "WE" were already technically clients of the best divorce attorney in town and I know that game, whoever calls first gets them, and I wasn't taking any chances.
I also respect the standers on this site, but I live in a small town and I was not going to be humiliated with him parading around with her, who is young enough to be his daughter. I don't know how others do it, but I could not face that shame and humiliation. I would have looked like a fool to stand. Other people don't "get" MLC. So I know what you're thinking and I did take the other road. I am not sure how it will turn out, but our divorce should be final this month and his wedding will be this summer. I am not sure what would have happened if I had stood and been more patient and understanding--only time will tell, I guess. You have to do what feels right to you, but be careful to listen to YOU, not your family or friends, they have other priorities--really, and you need to be sure where you "stand" before you make any rash decisions, unless you have to...
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I wonder this too. I would not initiate a divorce as why should you do the legwork but I do wonder...in some cases that the MLCer needs to follow the destruction all the way through with the D to feel "totally seperate" in these cases it may be best not to FIGHT the D but let the chips fall where they may and not DRAG it out so much. In my case..for financial reasons...and because of the state I reside I have some time to wait it out and buy more time which will benefit me financially. This is the only way I make my decisions at this point...what will benefit me and the kids and then I do it. I think there may be something to the Divorce in the MLC process but again I wouldn't move forward with divorce unless the MLCer really takes the initiative.
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I am six months into this. I brought up divorce, and my wife called an attorney. I retained one, but we are in a holding pattern. She has not followed through on a meeting that was supposed to be planned.
I am also wondering if I should push my lawyer to go all the way through.
My wife is not working, and she is expecting everything to be the same when divorced, except without me.
I tried to explain to her that I cannot afford an apartment and a house, she wants to keep the house, and doesnt want to work....
we are separated so thats how it is now.... she is having it the best of both worlds.
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I am tempted to go for the divorce, and then if she wakes up, I would be glad to take her back.
Divorce is actually better for me financially. but not for her, and we would also need to sell the house....
She is in fantasy land. Thinking that all will be exactly as it is without me. I am also sick of a marriage where she is not a wife.
She still cares for the kids, which is also odd to me. She just doesnt love me or want me.
She is mean and sarcastic to me, but to the rest of the world, she is sweet and wonderful.
I know we have standers for years, but its six months, and I am thinking divorce.
Dont get me wrong, I love her dearly,.... and wish like hell this fog lifts. But I have a life to live too... Life is too short to wait around for years for someone who may not come back....
Divorce is not detrimental to me, it cant be much worst than it is now... its beneficial financially, and maybe this will wake her a## up.
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Divorce in itself will not wake anyone out of the fog. The MLC process must be gone through.
Here's part of RCR's article Standing: Clarifying the Concept part 2
If you wanted or expected Standing to fix your marriage within six months, you did not Stand long enough. If you have decided that you do not want to be married to the same person in the future, then you do not need to continue Standing. But your MLCer will not be the same person in a few years when he comes through his MLC. It sounds to me that the problem is how you were Standing. What contact limitations--if any--did you put between you and your MLCer? Try Standing from a distance.
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Personally I don't think it would help at all. I think you should ask for a divorce only, and ONLY, if you are absolutely done and don't want to be married to him any more, even if he wanted to come back.
Getting legal advice to protect yourself is different, yes, by all means do that. But asking for a divorce won't wake him up.
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I sometimes wonder too zinger. I have heard of one situation where the wife divorced her MLC H, and year or so later found a new boyfriend. It was only once the H discovered she had the new boyfriend that he suddenly realised he was in real danger of losing her completely and came running her way. She broke up with the new boyf (they had not been together very long) and started dating her H again and eventually they were reconciled.
In all honesty, there are times when I truly don't think it matters what you do - for one situation a divorce decision may show the MLCer the LBS strength, standards and mettle and for another it may confirm that the LBS was an unforgiving b***h or B******d. For another situation it may remind the MLCer how wonderful the LBS is, but it lends to their belief that there is too much damage to go back.
So, while I find most of the info on this site unbelievably helpful and wise, I do think that there are a few areas (ie the divorce scenario) where there are no guarantees no matter what you do. I sometimes think I should get a lawyer and divorce H to send him the message that I do find him and his behaviour unacceptable, I will not be married to anyone who would show so little respect to thoughts and feelings of those around him, no matter what the reasons. I also wonder if taking some control back in this situation and making the marriage final will give me the finality I need to close a door rather than living in hope for years when that hope could be false. I think this may be the main dilemma of many LBSer - do I trust a process that tends to play out in a certain way, but also has no guarantees? Or should I just cut my losses and move on and truly take control over my life including who I am married to, which is something that is in my control. It will not end my mourning and sadness which will be there whatever I do, but it will give the reins of my life back to me. Because I don't think that H coming back is dependant on our marriage status (in fact he famously said, we could only get back together in the future if we were divorced :o, but as with all MLC statements, I would not place a bet on him meaning that). I know the divorce question is a big one on here and there are people who are against divorce in almost any circumstance - but in truth, none of us is "pro-divorce" (well except some of our MLCers of course) or we wouldn't be here asking these questions and agonising over it.
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Thanks for everyone's responses. A few clarifications I guess...I do not believe that a divorce will speed up MLC process or even affect it in anyway. I did not raise the question because I am becoming impatient or expect that after 8 months there would be movement in my H. As I said in my original post, I am pretty NC with exception of contact about kids. I am getting a life and actually feel pretty good these days--i have gotten a lot of helpful distance and feel much stronger than I have in years.
My question is really about down the road, years down the road, if and when my H completes his journey, and if and when at that point he desires to reconcile. If I "stood" by traditional standards, not initiating divorce, I wonder what kind of message that sends to my H and really, more importantly, to myself. Because truthfully, I do not want to be married to this MLC person. This is not to say that I don't want or wouldn't work hard towards a new, better marriage with my H if and when he were to make it through the MLC process -- I ABSOLUTELY would based on our history and our children. But asking for a divorce NOW says to him and to me that currently this relationship is unacceptable and I have no interest in being a part of his current MLC life and choices. Again, not with the intention of affecting his journey or expediting his journey or manipulating his journey AT ALL. Just for the purpose of being clear to him and to myself about what kind of relationship I want to be in.
I hope that helps clarify my question and point for discussion.
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I am divorced. Of course your current relationship with your MLCer is unaccetable. I understand why an LBS gets to a point where they just can't or won't do it any more. I get that.
You say you would be willing to work toward a new, better marriage if your husband makes it through the MLC process. Chances are pretty high that he will. Standing is about helping you refine those relationship skills by working on the Self through the Unconditionals.
From one of the Standing articles:
Do you think going through the divorce process will be easier and less painful than Standing? Do you think being divorced will be easier and less painful than Standing? You can choose not to Stand and seek or agree to divorce. But that choice will not be easier or less painful. It may be resolved faster, but the pain and regrets linger and have no reconciled ending.
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Zinger I thin the problem is when the LBS initates the divorce it is telling the MLC'er that they are shutting the door on the relationship.
We all agree that your marriage was over at BD, all of our marriages were over at that point.
By filing for divorce you may be shutting the door on a reconcilliation down the road.
Not to say that it can't be done but I think it is another nail in the door keeping it closed.
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OP -- I hear you. Might another way to look at it rather than nailing the door shut is to completely set them free? Give them nothing more to run from or push back on except themselves? Or perhaps I can see the value in not initiating the divorce, but if a MLCer asks for a divorce, agreeing rather than saying "I don't accept that." Doesn't that just cause immense frustration and additional rebellious urges on the MLCer?
DGU -- I definitely don't think that getting a divorce would be easier than standing. And can't one still refine those relationship skills while they are divorced?
I guess my question boils down to this: If we all agree that divorce is a piece of paper, and it can't stop an LBS from working on your self and it likely won't prevent the MLCer from returning if they ultimately choose to, but it DOES create a symbolic end to the old damaged marriage, and it DOES set the MLCer completely free to journey as they need to, and it DOES send a message to the MLCer of a clear and symbolic boundary as far as what the LBS will and will not tolerate as acceptable treatment, why run from, push back or try to stop MLCer from getting a divorce.
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Zinger, interesting thought, plus the clarity of your quandary!
But asking for a divorce NOW says to him and to me that currently this relationship is unacceptable and I have no interest in being a part of his current MLC life and choices. Again, not with the intention of affecting his journey or expediting his journey or manipulating his journey AT ALL. Just for the purpose of being clear to him and to myself about what kind of relationship I want to be in.
I hope that helps clarify my question and point for discussion.
I think everybody missed ZINGERS point. She is saying, she does not like this man in MLC. She does not wish to be married to the person he is now. She is not ruling out future reconciliation but the point she is trying to make is worthy of consideration.
I see exactly where you are coming from Zinger. You are simply saying, this is not the man I married, nor do I wish to be married to THIS present person. There is no way ANYBODY can answer that for you Zinger. You know your heart, your soul and your mind. It is YOU who will have to live with the outcome of such a decision.
For myself, I just plain did not know what to do! Being in that state, I chose to "FREEZE"... LET TIME pass, take a look at it further down the road. I have this thing about 3's... 3 hours, 3 days, 3 months, 3 years... others use the 48hour rule. I always did any soul searching in 3's as well. When I asked myself a question or thought I had come to a decision, I gave myself the 3 day rule, plus asked myself the question 3 times. On the 3rd. asking and after the obligatory 3 day wait, if I gave myself the same answer, then I did it.
Now, this gets complicated, because if I got mixed responses in any of those 3 day/3time asked periods, I shelved ANY decision for at least 3 mos. This deviates from your initial enquiry.
I think for most of us in here, we find it hard to believe, that the person we loved, married, had children with, grew older with, wasn't still in that BODY and MIND, somewhere. He/she still looked the same. Often they sounded and talked the same. As long as we saw anything that resembled the person we loved, then I guess most of us were willing to "hold off" from doing anything drastic.
I sure can understand your LOGIC though. This is not the man you married. You don't like this man and you surely do not have to tolerate or stay married to him.
Like most things about this MLC crap... there really are no right or wrong answers. We simply have to be true to ourselves.
Hugs Stayed
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Quite honestly Zinger, I can't see any reason why an LBS'er and and MLC'er can't complete their journey, married or divorced. As long as one does carry on with their journey.
Perhaps the motivation, incentive to complete our journey is reduced if we divorce. I just don't know, as quite frankly, I fail to see how the pain, suffering, looking within oneself can possibly be avoided. It is just the nature of this "sort" of situation.
Hugs Stayed...
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If we all agree that divorce is a piece of paper, and it can't stop an LBS from working on your self and it likely won't prevent the MLCer from returning if they ultimately choose to, but it DOES create a symbolic end to the old damaged marriage, and it DOES set the MLCer completely free to journey as they need to, and it DOES send a message to the MLCer of a clear and symbolic boundary as far as what the LBS will and will not tolerate as acc
First of all, I'm not sure we all agree on all of that, but let's set that aside.
I do believe that people can reconcile whether there has been a D or not. I know two cases personally.
Perhaps the motivation, incentive to complete our journey is reduced if we divorce.
I do think the suffering of this journey is what helps people to change - both the MLCer and the LBSs. And I think that is one benefit of standing. Since I have not "moved on" I have been forced to look at myself much more than if I had. I have also looked at my H and what he is going through. When he came back after a year, I half thought to myself that it was too soon, that I hadn't finished working on myself. That was true. It took almost 3 years to see his depression. The first few years all I saw was his replay mask.
There's no one right way to do this. This website and forum shows you techniques that are likely to help you, particularly during his replay. You still have to be true to yourself.
I would say that there are ways to show your H that you do not approve of his behavior without Ding him. My H knows. I have never told him I would take him back regardless.
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Might another way to look at it rather than nailing the door shut is to completely set them free? Give them nothing more to run from or push back on except themselves? Or perhaps I can see the value in not initiating the divorce, but if a MLCer asks for a divorce, agreeing rather than saying "I don't accept that." Doesn't that just cause immense frustration and additional rebellious urges on the MLCer?
Yes I pretty much agree with what you wrote.
We should validate their desire to get a divorce.
I guess the part that I am trying to stress is that it should be their divorce, we should not help them with the process.
As Dr. Phil says they need to earn their way out of the marriage.
They need to do all the work required to make it happen.
We should not help them.
I think when it becomes our divorce then the door is being shut.
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The main concern that I would have had regarding a quick divorce is that, in my situation, it could have created a situation where H felt able to immediately marry OW before really spending any time living with her - it would also increase the chances of a pregnancy etc. While we are still married they are less likely (not totally unlikely) to do that. That means that H (in theory) has had enough time living with OW to at least recognise her flaws and realise she is human. Now even if a divorce and remarriage come later, H will at least have a little insight into what he is getting in to...
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Yep, there have been two different questions asked. Why should the LBS run from, push back, or try to stop the MLCer from getting a divorce? That's a different question that should the LBS pursue a divorce........and there's the other question of does it matter either way?
Here's a link to the article It Doesn't Matter What You Do.
http://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/self-focus_choose-joy_acting-as-if-fake-it-til-you-make-it_it-doesnt-matter-what-you-do.html
I agree with Stayed in the choice of a "freeze"......same sort of concept as a Stand in giving yourself time to make good decisions that you have less chance of regretting. I like to say that I will leave the regrets to my MLCer. Very few MLCers do not end up regretting their behavior. Very few.
I understand the point. The point is not unusual. Who on this forum likes their MLCer in their present MLC emotional state? I would dare say that is somewhere close to zero.
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Z--I struggled with this a lot. If I had not needed health insurance I would have divorced him the day after BD.
I truly believe that staying in a marriage while my H parades around another woman in what used to be my place is a horrible example for my teenage boys. It is telling them I am a doormat and that the "institution of marriage" itself is so important that I will allow myself to be humiliated by a strange man that has taken over their father's body. And in some ways, I think it contributes to the feeling that you need to work on yourself. I don't totally buy that.
I am not perfect, and sure we had issues in our marriage, but the key is I was always willing to work on them. I was not the person he says he needed, but he was not always the person I needed. In a mature relationship we would have honored the commitment and worked around those things, but he bailed. No one can meet everyone's needs, so all R's are constant negotiations, whether it's romantic, family, or just friends, we all give and take and maintain some kind of balance. But he bailed.
There are lots of things I could work on, but I was never not okay with the person I saw in the mirror (and I don't mean an actual mirror, cause let's not get into body image issues... ;-)). I am a good person, and I was a good wife. And I truly believe that when I look at the fact that I have five years left with my boys, I have to think very carefully about what I do with the examples I am going to give them in the most important years of their life. And I agree that if I knew that H were going to come out of this okay, standing and being strong and true would be perfect. But there are no guarantees and having them watch him treat me like s$%^ and in the end still walk back to OW, would be far worse. The medium, of divorce and watching me rebuild a positive life without him is the safest option for my kids—it is the only one I CONTROL.
And that is where I wonder, is divorce sometimes the best answer for reducing collateral damage—especially the kids?
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From the Doormat article:
We live in a divorce-happy society. No matter what there will be people who think that merely through the act of Standing or wanting your cheating spouse home you are on the doormat. For better or for worse has no real meaning to many people--including people who say it in their vows; they apply their values to you and if you don't follow their values and belief systems there is something wrong with you; you must be weak. Why would you want someone who mistreats you? They don't understand that you do not want the mistreating Monster. Why would you believe he will change then? If the Monster is a new MLC personality, you have good reason to believe the Monster is not permanent.
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This is a great discussion Zinger. Thanks for putting up there. Every single one of you have given me food for thought. Aspects I had never considered before, I find myself pondering.
That comment loveisntweakness, about what we do, does matter, interesting comment from your husband, because honestly, it really is hard to see whatever we do has any effect whatsoever. I get the idea of "paving the way" but something about saying it, makes me uncomfortable. As quite often, what I more often then not see, is some major "sucking up"! I honestly understand that people feel what they feel, but "validating" some of those feelings, in the name of "paving the way".... makes my stomach turn.
I agree with Dr. Phil, unless we are divorcing to protect ourselves financially from ruin, then let the MLCer/cheater earn his / her own way out of the marriage. Let him / her pay for the divorce, heck why should it cost me a cent, I didn't want a divorce.
I can also see what Zinger is saying, if the MLCer wants to be free, then let him be free... totally free. I think whether you divorce or not, one still has to go through this process. I think we mistaken moving on as, finding a new partner. I don't think I would have been finding myself a "new partner" for a long, long time... whether he divorced me or not. Look at Dontgiveup, he's divorced, he's still working on himself and he isn't even interested in looking at other possible partners. Maybe he's the exception!!!
I guess, it really doesn't matter. As long as you are doing it for the right reasons and not to GET THE ATTENTION of your MLC spouse.
hugs Stayed...
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Great feedback. Thank you all for sharing your thoughts--hearing all of these different viewpoints is really, really helpful.
LIW--it is helpful to hear what your H has said in terms of how your actions impacted him. Perhaps that is a good topic for another discussion thread. We could entitle it, "Straight from the Monster's Mouth" ;) Also, i get what you are saying about forcing the LBSer to continue to journey, even if we feel like we have already completed a marathon--there is always more to learn, always more to grow.
S&D--I agree with your point about divorce freeing up the MLCer to marry the OW sooner than they otherwise could. That also would bring the kids into it sooner and that alone is a good reason to hold off the D for as long as possible (particularly with young kids like mine).
Stayed--what can I say, you are the ultimate diplomat and i so appreciate your support and understanding--thank you :)
Thanks again to all for engaging in this discussion with me. It really is so helpful to hear so many different views and I agree that there is no right answer, just right for each of us.
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LIW--you raise the issue of boundaries and mistakes and forgiveness. I struggle with all of those in this whole ridiculous ride. I have actually read everything I can on polyamory wondering if I were open minded enough to go there--if that would be the answer, could we all live happily as a big extended family, is that the answer? Isn’t it possible that we are all just not open to love enough and that is our whole problem? What is absolutely required in a marriage thereby its absence is unforgivable, what is forgivable and what is really not important? Sexual fidelity, honesty, financial stability, love, compassion…
I don't even know the answers for myself when it come to a romantic R. But I think my kids know there is a difference between any mistakes they will ever make and what their dad has done. We have even talked about what would happen if they find themselves in the position their dad is in--what would I do, and they know the answer. I will never be proud, but no matter what they do, they will always be my kids and I will always love them and forgive them, but I will also always stand by that woman and their kids, too and they better know that. And there are no other mistakes they could make that have to do with loyalty—even if they denounce me, I would still love them from afar, just as I love their Dad and I would forgive them if they came back, as I would probably forgive their Dad, if he ever were to come back.
I think the difference is their dad walked away from a family. When you have kids, it is not just leaving a R, you leave a FAMILY and all it stood for—for another woman, the mother of some other kids. It's a loyalty issue. We talked about this the other day, that I would die for them with no hesitation and there was a time I would die for H, knowing that he would take care of what mattered most to me, our kids. I can’t say that anymore. And for me, that’s the biggest FEAR, knowing that there is no one else in the world I trust to put my kids first if anything ever happens to me. And they feel that, one even said to me at one point “I understand if he couldn’t choose you, but I always thought he would choose us (meaning he and his brother), but he chose her over us.”
And that’s a mistake I can’t afford to make. I can’t choose anyone over my kids. Not now, after what he has put them through, not even H if his needs are so great that they would negatively impact our kids. That’s the part that scares me about any possible R process. He would have to come back to me whole and in a position to nurse his kids back to emotional health, I do not have what it takes right now ot take him back broken and try to rehabilitate him and our two kids—someone would lose in that deal and I fear it would be me. Does that make sense?
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Stayed......that was very kind of you to say. I don't know if I'm an exception, I just believe that my ex-wife and I have a foundation that would be hard to match with another partner. And, since my ex-wife has been a Boomeranger (even post-divorce), that would be difficult to explain to a dating partner since her and I are in fairly frequent contact.
I can see where you are coming from regarding Paving the Way....and how it could be viewed as "sucking up". Where I see the difference is that "sucking up" sounds active, possibly even pursuing. I think Paving the Way is more about simply keeping a respectable connection in place so that when the MLCer has progressed through the tunnel, they can become the pursuer again.
Paving the Way can be as simple as responding vs reacting. Paving the Way is related to the Unconditionals since the MLCer will test for the LBS forgiveness.
Here's part of one of RCR's blogs that gives some insight:
He left, he cheated, he blamed you for everything that is wrong, he spewed Monster yuck at you…it is normal to think that you will not want to reconcile. He doesn’t believe you. He tests you with more spew and the alienator relationship continues. It will take 1-3 years of your consistent Standing for him to believe in it. This is Paving the Way.
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I'm a little concerned Lisalives, that you are perhaps taking your role as a mother a bit too seriously. Yes, I agree our children must come first, no argument. That being said, I have found that children understand much more then we give them credit for.
Most of the parents in here have managed to teach their children about MLC, depression and problems like this. They use this as an example to teach their children that and OATH IS AN OATH, even if ONE party violates that oath, that does not negate your sacred OATH.
By standing and bettering ourselves, hopefully our MLC spouse is working their way through their issues as well, we are showing our children that adults do not simply walk away, when the going gets tough. We live in a world which often comes across as heartless, disrespectful, greedy, selfish and no moral values. We can change that belief, simply by honouring the vow we took to our spouse.
It may not work out, the spouse may never return, you may still end up divorced but you have shown your children that marriage is not something ANYONE should take lightly. That marriage is a sacred union, that must not be put assunder, without very good cause.
I don't think there is any greater lesson one can teach their children. This is not a case of your children vs. your husband. This is about you and your h. These situations have lasting consequences to our children, if you and your h were to reconcile and were able to build a marvelous new marriage (because the old marriage is dead... it is gone, forever), that could change the whole outcome of everyone future. Instead of the children, talking about when their dad walked out on them, they would talk about how dad had a crisis. Left them all for a while. Mom never lost faith and hope in dad. When dad came back, she led them into a wonderful new marriage.
The lesson for your son's would be, NEVER GIVE UP HOPE! ANYTHING can be done, if two people love enough and are willing to do the work.
Nothing is ever cut and dried lisalives. We can direct our children's attitudes. Instead of letting a comment go by like that one about choosing OW over us... you could easily have said... "and that shows you, how HORRIBLE mid life crisis is! Would you EVER have believed your father could do such a thing? Never, me either. When he comes out of this, he is going to need us. We must get strong." We have far more control then we give ourselves credit and our children are far more reasonable and intelligent too. Don't sell any of you short.
hugs Stayed...
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Where I see the difference is that "sucking up" sounds active, possibly even pursuing. I think Paving the Way is more about simply keeping a respectable connection in place so that when the MLCer has progressed through the tunnel, they can become the pursuer again.
I think your idea of Paving the Way is right on the money Dontgiveup. I am afraid, the way that many are using it here, is much more like my idea of "sucking up", which I totally agree, is pursing, which is probably why whenever people mention it, I feel my stomach turn. I like the idea of it being a "respectful connection", yes that is much better.
I think you need to post this on pretty much every thread that uses the term PAVING THE WAY... cause honestly, most of the time all I am seeing is "sucking up", ahhhhhhhhhhh pursuing.
Thanks that was really helpful.
hugs Stayed
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Let me make something crystal clear in regards to BOUNDARIES..
Boundaries are for YOU; NOT the person you set them on; a boundary will NOT make a person stop their behavior toward you; in fact, a boundary won't "make" another do anything they don't choose to do.
When you set a boundary, you've decided what you will and won't accept within a person in the way of behavior, or otherwise; the person the boundary is set on, has TWO choices: either accept the boundary and change their behavior/way of relating to the person who set the boundary, OR walk away/continue to behavior, no matter what.
It is up to YOU to enforce the boundary with a consequence, but that consequence needs to be something you can live with; and carry out....
For example, I drew the line set a boundary on my husband's disrespectful way of talking to me; I told him to stop, or I would leave the room....now, notice, I didn't tell him I would ask him to leave or anything harsher; I simply stated that I would leave the room; and I did, on MORE than one occasion; and when he followed me; I restated my boundary and removed myself again from his presence.
Basically, I was letting him know that I did not wish to be around him; if he could not be respectful to me...but I did NOT "make" him do anything; I only took care of myself, and enforced my boundary.
There were various aspects of disrespect that I had to keep chipping at within him; as I set boundaries on one aspect, then another.
He could have left at any time, the door was open; he already knew that he could leave; but he didn't; after testing my limit/boundary several times to make sure I did mean business, I saw him start to change.
Now, those of you that say you don't have to endure or put up with any kind of abuse; are being truthful; but I endured a great deal of abuse; staying married, at least on my end; and from my experience; without some pain of some kind, there is NO gain of any kind; if you're that insistent that you'll not put with up with ANY kind of pain out of this crisis, you'll get what you want; you'll get left alone, completely; but, again, based on my own experience, you must stay within conflict in order to grow in another aspect of this crisis.
And, I knew these things; say what you want; but I was willing to do WHATEVER it took to stay with my husband; and bring my marriage through, navigating it to safer waters; and almost single handedly, I accomplished that; with the help of the Lord.
Yet, at the same time, I was journeying toward a better person; growing for the future; and changing for a lifetime.
It takes a LOT of strength to deal; and keep dealing; even as the garbage falls around you; and I saw alot of garbage fly all during that time.
Through these areas of conflict, I learned to set healthy boundaries; and set the consequences for ME; knowing that my boundaries didn't have anything to do with him, and everything to do with me, and what I would and would NOT accept out of him in the way of behavior and otherwise.
It was, at times, a very painful process, and I wanted, many times, to just call a halt, and just quit; but it's not in me to quit; so I kept going; and went right on through; because there's NO short cuts in that area; only going through.
There IS a point in time, where you are going to have to deal with something or many things, that you would not want to deal with; in the way of behavior, as in teaching the MLC spouse at a later time in reconciliation what is acceptable behavior toward you; and having them FIGHT you, because they want the OLD; and are willing to literally get in your face about it; and all the boundaries in the world did NOT make my husband back down; but then, neither did I.
There were times when I had to back off and regroup; then go right back into the conflict; this was NOT about being right or wrong; this was about being treated good or well; and I decided at one point if he couldn't do it, he was free to leave; and that was also made clear to him at that time. I didn't threaten him with anything; I just let him know how I stood. And left the room again.
You don't get through all of this without some misery and suffering that will come from the MLC spouse before it's all said and done.
I don't wish to start up a debate on this; I just know what I know from my own experience; and I don't feel "entitled" nor even "expect" people, not even my husband to treat me what's considered right; but neither will I allow people to walk on me, either; walking away when I know I need to.
There is NO easy way to navigate this crisis; and there is NO easy way to the end; and no one, ever, gets everything they want; and this is also something that is learned during the crisis...even the MLC'er learns this; or is supposed to.
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And in some ways, I think it contributes to the feeling that you need to work on yourself. I don't totally buy that.
I am not perfect, and sure we had issues in our marriage, but the key is I was always willing to work on them. I was not the person he says he needed, but he was not always the person I needed. In a mature relationship we would have honored the commitment and worked around those things, but he bailed. No one can meet everyone's needs, so all R's are constant negotiations, whether it's romantic, family, or just friends, we all give and take and maintain some kind of balance. But he bailed.
There are lots of things I could work on, but I was never not okay with the person I saw in the mirror (and I don't mean an actual mirror, cause let's not get into body image issues... ;-)). I am a good person, and I was a good wife. And I truly believe that when I look at the fact that I have five years left with my boys, I have to think very carefully about what I do with the examples I am going to give them in the most important years of their life. And I agree that if I knew that H were going to come out of this okay, standing and being strong and true would be perfect. But there are no guarantees and having them watch him treat me like s$%^ and in the end still walk back to OW, would be far worse. The medium, of divorce and watching me rebuild a positive life without him is the safest option for my kids—it is the only one I CONTROL.
And that is where I wonder, is divorce sometimes the best answer for reducing collateral damage—especially the kids?
Working on yourself is not an admission of guilt or fault on your part for your H's behavior and MLC. It is an opportunity for the LBS to gain a different perspective on themselves, grow and heal in whatever way possible for them. None of us are PERFECT. There must be something that you have wanted to do, try, experience or learn while in your M and being a Mom. It is an "opportunity" for YOU not anyone else. I know it's difficult to look within ourselves especially when this wasn't planned and instead thrust upon us without our approval. But why waste the time you have now in focusing on your H, or worse yet the OW instead of on YOU! Meet YOUR needs.
Your H and OW are the ones who should be ashamed of themselves and hide not YOU. Hold your head up high and to hell with what everyone else thinks. I too live in a very small town and I NEVER cared or hid from the people in the community because I did NOTHING wrong. Besides everyone knows what they did and are up to. It eventually works it's way out without your needing to do a thing. Trust me on this. I know exactly how you feel.
Forget the idea that Standing is about your H coming back. Standing is for YOU. Take Your time, make decisions which are best for YOU & your kids. Learn something new, take up a hobby if you don't already have one, go out and explore new things and you'd be surprised what opens up to YOU. Take MLC out of the equation for a moment. For example: Ask yourself if there is something you've always wanted to do which would be of benefit but didn't? It doesn't have to be outrageous but something simple.
The kids have already been hurt by your H's actions so damage has already been done but getting a D or Not doesn't change this. But your actions in how you handle yourself during this time will be noticed by them as you know. Actions do speak louder than words. Standing doesn't mean allowing our H/W's to treat us like $hit or being a doormat. That's what boundaries are for. Our children learn from us and needs to be re-enforced. Both good or bad they learn no matter the age. You said you have 5 years left with your boys but you know that's not necessarily true. Maybe living with you yes but not in your life.
Something I ask myself often which helps me clarify in my decisions during this time is "What example do I want to be for my kids as well as for myself?"
You're doing great and keep going. Try not to get sucked back into the drama and lose focus of You. Yes, it sounds selfish but it's not by our choice but it's necessary to move forward.
Sorry for the long post. And yes, I'm new to this and still a rookie but what choice do we have really? I'm not much of a gambler so I'd rather bet on me and my kids any day. Much better odds. ;D ;D
((Hugs))
TS
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from: loveisntweakness
I would say that there are ways to show your H that you do not approve of his behavior without Ding him. My H knows. I have never told him I would take him back regardless.
Agree! I too have never told my H I'd take him back regardless but I have held him accountable when he's gone too far. If that's pressure quite honestly I don't care. There are just some things I won't let slide. My kids being top priority. I don't ask too much of him and have given him his freedom and space. TBH much of it is for our benefit as much for H.
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Stayed, I think you're right I might be taking my role as a mother a little too seriously. My H left just after we got through the worst of the mistaken cancer diagnosis. Our kids never recovered from the scare, and in fact the "healthy" son we took for granted was the one most hurt. He barely got over the fact he almost lost a brother, then he lost his dad. He had a horrible year, I know he was severely depressed. He failed ALL his classes, so his status in high school is at risk, and he has had more than a couple panic/anxiety attacks surrounding all this. So, I am feeling a little overprotective.
But, their therapists and mine have warned me NOT to talk about MLC with them--unless their dad one day tells them differently, they need to respect that he is TRYING to make the best choices for them--I don't know, they're experts, right, I have no reason to think they're wrong. I have told them I think their Dad is depressed and depression runs in his family and depressed people don't make the best choices. But, he counters with telling them that she makes him so happy and their lives will be so much better with her--without realizing how much it hurts them... I guess I just don't have faith my H will ever get out of the tunnel. He has given up so much I fear there is no going back. I hope I'm wrong, for his sake, but unfortunately I know more cases of men who die unhappy with their OW than ones that reconcile with their families--I figure the odds are not in my favor, so I should face the possibility.
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Is it possible that the cases you know are ones where the LBS had already closed the door to reconciliation? That's one of the common reasons why some do stay with the OM/OW.
I am not saying anyone should have a false hope.....and facing the possibility he will not want to reconcile eventually is fine, but what your husband is doing has some high odds against it working out. Having an affair, marrying the affair partner, marrying so soon after a divorce, a second marriage, children involved.......RCR has written about how these things are strikes against it working out......and consider the information below from Frank Pittman, who has written about affairs and relationships.
Pittman wrote:
Most of the deserted husbands and wives do get to choose whether or not to return to the old marriage.”
You may decide you don't want your husband back once he gets through the tunnel.....that may be more common than not. But the odds are he will make it through the tunnel and odds are heavy that his upcoming marriage will not work out.
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Now, those of you that say you don't have to endure or put up with any kind of abuse; are being truthful; but I endured a great deal of abuse; staying married, at least on my end; and from my experience; without some pain of some kind, there is NO gain of any kind; if you're that insistent that you'll not put with up with ANY kind of pain out of this crisis, you'll get what you want; you'll get left alone, completely; but, again, based on my own experience, you must stay within conflict in order to grow in another aspect of this crisis.
Yes! This is important. My children and I went to a local library before I was to drop them off with my H. I was having quite the day with LOTS of anger...and wouldn't you know it we walked right into a drum circle. A lovely man named Mr. Dearheart (made me think of SL) was leading a group of children in a drum circle. The rhythms soothed me before I would have to see H which by the way for me just altogether sucks lately. Anyway before I left Mr. Dearheart made the comment that the safest place in a storm is right in the MIDDLE of it...so now when I feel like running always I remember this.
Also heard something else tonight which is that you DON't move closer to GOD without pain and suffering. It's amist a crisis where you have the opportunity to grow....now some will run...like our dear MLCers...but the speaker said you can't outrun god...
HUGS
BUGS
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Also heard something else tonight which is that you DON't move closer to GOD without pain and suffering. It's amist a crisis where you have the opportunity to grow....now some will run...like our dear MLCers...but the speaker said you can't outrun god..
Well said Buggy!
TS
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I truly believe that staying in a marriage while my H parades around another woman in what used to be my place is a horrible example for my teenage boys. It is telling them I am a doormat and that the "institution of marriage" itself is so important that I will allow myself to be humiliated by a strange man that has taken over their father's body. And in some ways, I think it contributes to the feeling that you need to work on yourself. I don't totally buy that.
I am not perfect, and sure we had issues in our marriage, but the key is I was always willing to work on them. I was not the person he says he needed, but he was not always the person I needed. In a mature relationship we would have honored the commitment and worked around those things, but he bailed. No one can meet everyone's needs, so all R's are constant negotiations, whether it's romantic, family, or just friends, we all give and take and maintain some kind of balance. But he bailed.
There are lots of things I could work on, but I was never not okay with the person I saw in the mirror (and I don't mean an actual mirror, cause let's not get into body image issues... ;-)). I am a good person, and I was a good wife. And I truly believe that when I look at the fact that I have five years left with my boys, I have to think very carefully about what I do with the examples I am going to give them in the most important years of their life. And I agree that if I knew that H were going to come out of this okay, standing and being strong and true would be perfect. But there are no guarantees and having them watch him treat me like s$%^ and in the end still walk back to OW, would be far worse. The medium, of divorce and watching me rebuild a positive life without him is the safest option for my kids—it is the only one I CONTROL.
Truthseeker hit the nail on the head with her reply; and you need to separate your personal feelings from what your husband is doing, LisaLives.
You're taking it personally, internalizing; and it has NOTHING do with you; and everything to do with him; if it hadn't been you, it would have been someone else.
What he is doing is NOT a reflection on you, or the example you may choose to set for your children.
And I'm going to tell you something from having been married, and am still married to a man whose parents divorced when he was seven years old; he was MORE damaged and traumatized from the divorce; than he would have been had they been fighting all the time, like MY parents did...I SAW up close and personal the guilt, the shame and the deep trauma my husband was STILL carrying around after over 30 some odd years after his parents divorced right into his MLC.
This was the FINAL issue he had so much trouble facing; and it took him an additional SIX years to really start facing; but on top of that, God had to intervene, and allow circumstances to cause him to break his ankle; in order to bring him DOWN, helpless as the seven year old he was regressed to, emotionally, in order to FORCE him to face himself fully; and it still took him one more year to finish it all out.
I have learned a great deal from watching and observing him; his mother had discovered his dad was having an affair; and went right on, and filed for a legal separation, when he was 4, THEN, she got the final divorce from his dad, when he was 7...so she ran from what his dad did; never faced herself, NOR did the work; and though she never remarried; she kept trying to cause a division between my husband and his dad, instead of staying OUT of their business. It was definitely MLC; and his dad was dealing with the issues surrounding HIS parent's divorce when HE was small.....so the cycle was continuing there.
IMHO, NO matter how old a child is; divorce does do DEEP emotional damage; and the CHILDREN are the ones who get the brunt of the MOST damage, no matter how you, as an adult, might justify it, UNLESS you're in fear of your life because of physical abuse.
Sometimes God will lead a LBS out of the marriage; but most times, He won't; and the reasoning comes more clearly down the line; when the LBS has attained a greater understanding of themselves, AND of the crisis itself.
You don't even really know how the children will react to a divorce between the two of you; REGARDLESS of the reason...from what I have observed within my husband, I'm thinking it will damage them in ways you'd never expect.
No matter what a child will say; they ALWAYS feel they are at fault when Mom and Dad divorce; they feel they are the ones that are deficient; yet, they live in fear of being honest about their REAL feelings in that aspect; because they FEAR losing one or both parent's love; and they don't really have a choice, anyway; so they just go along......and it's sad that people are so quick to get a divorce, regardless of which side it comes from....I came to understand, that there is hope in every situation, as long as you still love the MLC spouse; and the damage they do; CAN be gotten past; but you have to be willing to do that kind of work to get there; as it's not easy.
Food for thought; and don't think for one minute, I haven't faced that crossroad of wanting to get a divorce; I did; and through someone the Lord sent to me; I was influenced away from making a life changing decision like that.
It's not my job to judge people for what they do; it's their life; but no one ever said life would be easy as pie for the whole time we are down here on this earth; trouble will always come in one form or another; and when it comes down to it; you will learn what's set before you, or keep cycling until you do learn, or die, whichever comes first...and I hadn't seen anybody get out of learning what THEIR part is within the breakdown of EVERY marriage; and yes, Ma'am, you, too, have your part; no matter what you say.
On the other hand, I really think the reason you don't "buy" working on yourself, is because, like most people; you are afraid of what you will see if you are totally no holds barred honest within yourself; I know I was; and I had your attitude once in the early days.....I asked why it was ME who had to do the work, when HE was the one who was doing wrong? I thought I was just fine and dandy.
Turned out I wasn't; I had my own part in the breakdown of our marriage; issues that I needed to look at, growing, changing, and becoming; and it took YEARS to accomplish everything I needed to for and within myself.
I've said this many times; and I'll say it again; if you think you don't have anything that needs working on; you're most likely the one with the BIGGEST issue within; because EVERYBODY has got baggage; no one is an exception..even those who have learned some of Life's Lessons, still have MORE to learn.
If both people within the marriage were all they were supposed to be and had been; the crisis would NOT have happened; just as my husband's crisis, and my transition would NOT have happened, had we been where we were supposed to be in our growth...our marriage didn't "cause" each of our individual periods of growth; our past ISSUES that were contained within our individual selves was what had caused his crisis; and my subsequent transition to happen.
My husband had an affair, LisaLives; my son also found out on his own, and urged me to get a divorce; he was 15; but I sat down with him, and explained a few things; one of which was that sometimes, it's NOT that easy; and the other was that there was still hope as long as I loved his dad; and was willing to stand for the marriage; I stood, mainly for MYSELF; my vows, and ultimately, my family; as there was a generation curse of 4 generations of divorce that had to be broken;(didn't know that until later on).
But what I showed our son in the example was this: You don't run at the first sign of trouble; you stand to see what's going to happen; and if you've got to stand in fire and brimstone, for a time, so be it; but you develop the courage to stand to see what will happen next; regardless of the breaking of their vows, you still have yours to consider; and children, especially older children, as I had; don't need to see that it's OK to run away; and they need to see, that it takes more strength to STAND; than it does to run away; and end up facing it again sometime later; somewhere else.
He did not understand at first; but later on, he understood more; as he watched me deal, grow, change; become, and in turn, teach him the lessons I was learning.
It was later when I realized the fruits of my labor had borne fruit, as he thanked me for what I had done to keep the family together against the odds....when you stand, it's always hard.
Just my .02 cents; based on my own experience; I know it's not easy; I know it's hard, very hard to know just the right thing to do; but in the end, YOU are the ONLY one who will be living with your decisions; good or bad, you will make your bed; and you will lay in it, hard or soft.
EVERYBODY has choices; don't ever think you don't have a choice; you ALWAYS have a choice; it may not be the right choice at times; but you always have a choice; you're not stuck, nor are you forced to stay where you are.....but when you make decisions, think them out carefully; because most of them, will affect the REST of your life; for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction; and for every action, there IS a consequence.
Now, me, I'm a survivor, and I teach survival; AND I'm also Pro Marriage; always have been, and always will be; and I know, from again, experience, that it is possible to survive and thrive IN SPITE of the crisis; though the journey was long; and sometimes the heartache was deep; I kept going; I knew I needed to; because the end would not be reached, if I stopped walking the journey for myself.
If anyone gets angry with what I post; I can't help that; I just know to tell the truth of what I see. No one, who walked with me from time to time during my journey ever told half truths, or lied to me, it was always the whole truth in whatever was told to me; and I didn't always want to hear it or understand it; but there were many seeds planted during that time; and these took root later on, beginning to grow, so someone else provided fertilizer and at a later time, someone else, provided water, in order to enhance the growth that was occurring within me; and I'm thankful for the tough love I got from time to time; the truth telling that was told to me, EVEN when I didn't want to hear it, and most of all, I am ever grateful for the genuine love that was also shown, even as the toughest things were said to me; that sometimes, broke me down, so I would see more clearly.
There is a breaking, a building up, another breaking, aspects; whole issues, and a journey; and it takes months, even years to finish; and even then, it's never finished; it continues; you learn till you're gone; and that's a fact. :)
Might as well get to it; time's getting on down the road, just like it always has...but if you don't, you really are hurting yourself; not me, not anyone else; because, it is ALWAYS up to you, and no one else. :)
There's no other way, I can approach any of this, but within the spirit of love and truth...because I have been there; different situation, same crisis, and most of the same circumstances...and I got through; you can too.
Where I stand now is attainable by anyone who wishes to walk the road, and take the time to grow, change, and become...in that process, you learn to accept and embrace, forgive, and heal...and time is what you have to work with...no time limit on how or when it's done...just so it gets done. :)
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Buggy,
Anyway before I left Mr. Dearheart made the comment that the safest place in a storm is right in the MIDDLE of it...so now when I feel like running always I remember this.
That's because this is where "His peace that surpasses ALL understanding" is found; within the MIDDLE of the storm...never at the beginning, nor at the end, but in the MIDDLE. :)
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But, their therapists and mine have warned me NOT to talk about MLC with them--unless their dad one day tells them differently, they need to respect that he is TRYING to make the best choices for them--I don't know, they're experts, right, I have no reason to think they're wrong. I have told them I think their Dad is depressed and depression runs in his family and depressed people don't make the best choices. But, he counters with telling them that she makes him so happy and their lives will be so much better with her--without realizing how much it hurts them... I guess I just don't have faith my H will ever get out of the tunnel. He has given up so much I fear there is no going back. I hope I'm wrong, for his sake, but unfortunately I know more cases of men who die unhappy with their OW than ones that reconcile with their families--I figure the odds are not in my favor, so I should face the possibility.
Now I'm not a therapist nor do I know your kids. But, I will say that I discussed MLC with both my kids early on and prepared them as much as possible for what may or may not occur with their F. It has helped tremendously because they can see it for themselves how their F is behaving even when he discredits it. They know the truth. I also feel strongly in protecting their R with their F as much as possible for any future repair. I hope for them to be able to forgive some day and have a healthy R again whether I'm part of it or not. That's my job as their M to preserve and protect. The rest I leave to God to take of the details.
IMHO if I hadn't done this it would have had more damage than necessary. Though my S is very protective of his F he has only recently begun to open up and recognize the depression. My H is notorious for "spinning" the message to justify his actions but it still doesn't make it true. Truth always comes out.
my .02
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Lisalives, I am shocked that ANY counselor would advise against discussing MLC. Actually shocked that they would advise about discussing ANYTHING that could possibly be responsible for FATHER'S behaviour. I realize they are the EXPERTS but tell me, since when has it been wise not discuss something that is hurting you? Since when has it been wise not to talk through possibilities? Since when has it been wise to ignore your ISSUES, sweep them under the carpet? I suggest you get a new counselor, one that has a much more open mind.
This isn't about a blame game. There is enough blame to go around. None of us are perfect. This is not about YOU. It is now, unfortunately, but the malady is your husband's Lisalives, now it is your responsibility to learn and grow from it. You can help your sons monoever through this, which in the end will help you at the same time.
The very fact that your h did this during/after such a terrifying year, is a typical INDCATOR of MLC. Think about it, NOBODY in their right mind would ABANDON people who love them and need them at such a HORRENDOUS point in their lives. Your h Lisalives, could not cope and he basically CHECKED OUT, rather then deal with it. He CRACKED likelives and that is something that can be explained to children.
It's not an excuse. Since when is an excuse required when somebody becomes ill? If we are physically ill, we don't apologize for becoming sick, no, generally people surround us and care for us.
This situation is similar but different. The MLC doesn't want our help, in fact they totally turn away from us. That is what makes this so unbelievably difficult for us LBS's, as we JUST WANT TO HELP them through it. We want to hold them close and protect them, from themselves.... YET.... they reject us completely and often turn to someone else. EXCRUCIATING!
Lisalives, I would try having a sincere talk with my sons. A real heart to heart. A talk about marriage and commitment. About loyalty and responsibility. If your h has always been dependable then this needs to be told to the boys, so they can see how huge a character this change is for their father. They are very capable of understanding BREAKING POINTS, hormones, changes in life that are unexpected.
Try it Lisalives. Slow this thing down. Break it down into smaller bites, instead of examining it as a WHOLE. Too overwhelming when you look at the big picture but like most anything else, when broken down into smaller, manageable pieces, always simplifies.
Please keep us posted Lisalives. We understand your thought process, we just don't see how rushing a Divorce through is going to CURE the situation, how that will protect you from the disrespect, the humiliation, the pain. Time is the only thing that can do that, no reason to rush, it isn't going anywhere.
Hugs Stayed
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This is an interesting discussion.
I read the article on the Twitter feed. Regarding the LBS who fought to keep her husband from divorcing her. Link is below.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2010/08/28/no-fault-divorce-my-fight-to-save-my-marriage.html
Hmmm? She is against "no fault" divorce. I get that. She fought for 5 years to keep her husband from divorcing her. Inevitably, the divorce went through. And, New York passed a "no fault" divorce law - making this the law in all 50 states.
OK. She had her principles. She fought against something she believed to be wrong - no fault divorce. She attempted to make her point. Probably spent lots of money. Spent lots of time.
But, if I step back and look at it....what did she do in terms of her relationship and marriage? The beginning of the story sounded very MLCish. Her H left her for another woman. He wanted a divorce, so that he could marry the OW. She fought tooth and nail to stop it....pretty much at any and all costs. She eventually lost.
I am thinking about her H and the OW. What do you think happened with them during the long arduous trek of him trying to obtain a divorce so that they could be together. I can only think that his wife's protest pushed the two of them closer together. They were united against their mutual foe (the wife) to obtain HIS freedom - so that THEY could be together. The wife created a "you and me against the world" scenario for the husband and his "new love." While I would not just lie down and allow my H to take advantage of me in a divorce suit - nor would I give him an easy path to severing our marriage - I do believe that the wife's actions in this article went a bit too far.
There was no paving of the way. I would imagine that Monster was alive and well in the husband for the 5 years and many more to come. I don't see any re-connection or reconciliation in their future. While his new "relationship" may not last - (once they defeated their foe, they may find that they have nothing between them in common except their mutual hatred of his ex-wife) - I don't see him returning to his wife anytime soon.
I agree. If the MLCer wants a divorce - the MLCer needs to do ALL the work. No reason to play into his/her hand. No reason for the LBS (save for financial protection) to do ANYTHING regarding divorce.
But, if it were to come to this....I don't see me fighting the Supreme Court to prove my h does not have the right to divorce me. I think that is just going too far.
It doesn't matter if she made a point - she lost the war.
Just my humble opinion.
Limitless
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Interesting article Limitless. I agree with you. What I took away from it is after time, the reason she started the process got lost. To me it seems as if it turned in to "I'll show you." Principles became more important than the actual reason. She said she "loved" her H, but over time it seems as if that didn't matter any more. It became more that HE would not win.
I find it very sad. I am standing, and I have days that standing means different things. But I would never force my H to stay married to me. I will not help him. he's free to do what he pleases. But I can't even imagine forcing my H to stay married. Really... why would he ever want to stay with such a controlling and IMHO sad person.
Wow... I'm still shaking my head!
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And, New York passed a "no fault" divorce law - making this the law in all 50 states.
Yup it did and I will be able to thank the lawmakers here for my divorce as my wife waited until the law went into effect to file.
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Fighting to save your marriage and fighting not to get divorced are two different things and I think she had her focus on the wrong one. She needed this website.
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For her, yes -- it wasn't 'paving the way'.
but I think she makes an important point. Where divorce is more difficult it makes it more in everyone's interest to not see that as the quick fix.
Now she may not have done herself and her marriage any immediate favours, but I agree with her point about standing up for a principle (as opposed to standing as we here define it). The other side of that coin is of course also understanding the importance of marriage vows. It all goes together. the simplistic way to put this is that it marriage is harder to get out of perhaps people will think more carefully about what it means to go into it.
So that's a different angle than we talk about here.
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Totally agree and have said that to many during my journey. Many people give up too easily.
I remain shocked at how quickly and easily people can get divorced in the US.
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I think that both length of marriage and whether there are children should be considered in determining how quickly a divorce can occur (except in situations of physical abuse).
Two twenty year olds getting married and deciding after a year it wasn't right and divorcing is one thing. 10-30 years of marriage and/or children involved should make divorce take longer. I am shocked at how many places do not require the high earning spouse (often the one doing less childcare to pursue a career) to financially support the spouse who made more career sacrifices (whether it was reducing hours, working part-time or staying at home) for the children.
In my situation I gave up 7 years of earning power to look after my kids and to be "flexible" for H's career - moving every 1-2 years. He decided to run off on me in just about the only country in Europe that does not award alimony. He therefore is offering me a measly amount but feeling very generous because quote "he doesnt HAVE to give me anything" In the meantime I STILL have to find a way to do the lions share of child-rearing and get a full-time job while he swans about on his 6 figure salary with his girlfriend who made no sacrifices for any of it and is not reaping the financial rewards built on the back of my support.
I almost feel like starting a lobby group for parents who are abandoned in these sorts of situations - they still are predominantly women although I have heard of men in this situation too.
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meant "NOW reaping the benefits", she most definitely is.
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I am shocked at how many places do not require the high earning spouse (often the one doing less childcare to pursue a career) to financially support the spouse who made more career sacrifices (whether it was reducing hours, working part-time or staying at home) for the children.
In my situation I gave up 7 years of earning power to look after my kids and to be "flexible" for H's career - moving every 1-2 years. He decided to run off on me in just about the only country in Europe that does not award alimony. He therefore is offering me a measly amount but feeling very generous because quote "he doesnt HAVE to give me anything" In the meantime I STILL have to find a way to do the lions share of child-rearing and get a full-time job while he swans about on his 6 figure salary with his girlfriend who made no sacrifices for any of it and is not reaping the financial rewards built on the back of my support.
I almost feel like starting a lobby group for parents who are abandoned in these sorts of situations - they still are predominantly women although I have heard of men in this situation too.
S&D
First let me start by saying I understand where you're coming from BUT please understand not everyone is in the same position. In my R, I was the "high earning spouse" making the 6 figure salary you mentioned. I too made many sacrifices but NONE of which abandoned my children, reduced any time with them as I attended every school function, sports activity, doctors appointments, etc. while still maintaining a very stressful high demand job.
When we are quick to judge and make general statements then we run the risk of losing sight of the "real" problem. MLC and the effects it has on a family and community. We want so desperately to point the finger and lay blame yet it clouds our judgement. Becoming bitter and angry. If we become so fixated on the problem we will never come up with the solution.
Am I to be collateral damage because I am in the minority being the primary breadwinner in my family as a woman? REALLY? I don't think so! Should we get our pitch forks and go after those "high earner spouses" because of the pain? Well we're all in the same boat high earner or not.
MLC does not discriminate - Male/Female/Race/Origin/Income/Education and the list goes on.
Please before we make blanket statements, think about what effect MLC has on EVERYONE involved and focus on bringing awareness towards a solution rather than compounding the problem. My H lives with OW and has abandoned us not because of my earning power or because he was the stay at home D. He did this because he is in a crisis of his own and we all know what that is - MLC! Period.
So if I sound offended that is not my intention as I know everyone here has good intentions and it was not meant as a dig. I get that... but I also see quite a bit of finger pointing in the wrong direction and it doesn't solve anything. It only feeds the anger, hurt and pain. Personally I would rather see MLC taken seriously as an illness instead of as a joke...therefore possibly early detection and treated before it hurts the family. But we will NEVER get there if we blame "all those men because well their men and that's just the way they are" or "those high earning spouses" or "those OW/OM". (note sarcasm) Come on! Well I'm not buying it!
My .02.
TS
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Here's my two cents...
ARE YOU FRIKKIN' KIDDING ME?
If you want to be married, you stay married. PERIOD.
How many MLCers say "We have to get a divorce in order for there to be any chance of us getting back together" ? :o
Exactly.
If you want a divorce, go ahead and get one... there's no stigma.... sometimes you have to protect yourself financially and there's no option of legal separation... BUT, you asked as if it might "wake up" the MLCer and cause them to "do something". BIG MISTAKE.
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If you want a divorce, go ahead and get one... there's no stigma.... sometimes you have to protect yourself financially and there's no option of legal separation... BUT, you asked as if it might "wake up" the MLCer and cause them to "do something". BIG MISTAKE.
We all know they will DO SOMETHING it just might not be the SOMETHING you want. :o :o All the more reason not to RUSH into anything until YOU are PREPARED and READY
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Good point...
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In the words of Dr. Myles Munroe "The Greek meaning of the word Divorce is to Defect". (Thanks Buggy for pointing me in his direction)
The dictionary meaning for defect is: to desert a cause, especially in order to adopt another.
So if you are ready to defect from your marriage then get the D otherwise continue to stand until you are in a much better place within yourself to base your decisions. D or Not it shouldn't stop you from progressing on YOUR journey. Why rush if you don't have to?
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truthseeker, if you felt that i was implying that high earning LBS's were not victims of MLC then I must have worded what I was saying quite badly, I am sorry. I was not omplying that women could not be a high earning spouses (I didn't even refer to gender, I used the term spouse) and if the MLCer was not the high earner and the LBS was, then I am not suggesting for a second it is less painful or that they deserved to be abandoned. MLC sucks for all LBS's I know - it is not like the pain of rejection knows gender or economic status etc.
And I am most certainly not making any statements about women (or men) not being good parents because they are working! But in many of the situations I have encountered on here, unfortunately, LBS's have been left with the children and with years out of the workplace, or with lower earning potential and in those situations where the MLCer feels he does not "owe anyone anything", the financial and stress repurcussions are huge on top of all the other MLC crap.
So maybe that is a generalisation, and I appreciate that situations are all different. Unfortunately legislation rarely works on the basis of vast difference. Legal systems are based on normative generalisations. I am completely unprotected financially (the price I pay for naivity, trust and following H to a country where he is required to pay me NO alimony, I guess) - fortunately I have good qualifications and will hopefully get a job and some money coming in soon and be a working mum too - but the stress of trying to find a job, on top of being abandoned with the small kids and having threats made about savings and housing etc - it may not be more painful, but it certainly adds a dimension of stress. In my own situation, my H wanted me at home while the kids were young, until MLC hit and then I was a burden.
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I guess what i am saying is that I disagree with legal systems that do not protect people who have been abandoned. In your case I would argue that your spouse should not be able to claim financial support because he chose to commit adultery and abandon the marriage. In my situation, my H should be forced to pay alimony as compensation for at least as long as it takes for me to have a standard of living that reflects something similar to the one that we built together, because HE chose to commit adultery and leave.
I was throwing it out there as a topic of discussion more than anything else - i know that these issues should be looked at from all the angles and I am happy to say that I probably have thought about things with an element of bias relating to my own particular circumstances. I am not judging anyone with regards to gender, social or economic status....
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Last post on the topic - I thought that i had written in my original post that I meant IF the high earner was the MLCer abandoning the family, I guess I forgot to type that bit (it was in my head) I guess I should stop posting so late at night...
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So maybe that is a generalisation, and I appreciate that situations are all different. Unfortunately legislation rarely works on the basis of vast difference. Legal systems are based on normative generalisations. I am completely unprotected financially (the price I pay for naivete, trust and following H to a country where he is required to pay me NO alimony, I guess) - fortunately I have good qualifications and will hopefully get a job and some money coming in soon and be a working mum too - but the stress of trying to find a job, on top of being abandoned with the small kids and having threats made about savings and housing etc - it may not be more painful, but it certainly adds a dimension of stress. In my own situation, my H wanted me at home while the kids were young, until MLC hit and then I was a burden.
S&D
Thank you and there's no need for an apology. You bring up very good points and believe me I know how you feel. If you will notice in my previous response I said I "was" the high earning spouse" and primary breadwinner. My sitch now is very similar to yours in that I naively chose to believe my H, gave up my job, relocate to a new state and surroundings where I knew no one but H's family. I did this because I thought we would have a better life with less stress. Little did I know I too would be abandoned with the kids, have no support, had to pull my 401K to live on, fight H for some support, and all the other issues you mentioned. So yes, I understand your pain all to well as I too wonder what I will do next financially or otherwise. It's all in my thread if you're interested. But all that being said I still do not wish to add further legislation which will be based on generalities.
Yes, I agree it should be difficult under certain circumstances to get a D, given length of marriage, children, etc. If anything maybe make it difficult for the "predator" whose come into the marriage and hold them accountable as much as the "WAS". Maybe they'll think twice before having a hand in destroying a family. Probably not going to happen. Now wouldn't that be interesting. ;D ;D Just saying.
But the real point I was making is if we begin to lose focus on the real problem which is MLC then we get nowhere.
BTW: I didn't feel judged. IMO this is a healthy topic of discussion and one which is often shied away from.
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truthseeker - off to read your thread now. I felt I needed to clarify, because my orginal post was badly written and did not really reflect the way I think about the topic. You are right that the focus should stay on MLC, as much as I would give up money, earning power, status (maybe even gender ;)) to be in a sitch where I had never heard the following words: mid-life crisis, alienator, affair, abandonment, OW, OM, LBS etc.......
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I guess what i am saying is that I disagree with legal systems that do not protect people who have been abandoned. In your case I would argue that your spouse should not be able to claim financial support because he chose to commit adultery and abandon the marriage. In my situation, my H should be forced to pay alimony as compensation for at least as long as it takes for me to have a standard of living that reflects something similar to the one that we built together, because HE chose to commit adultery and leave.
I completely agree with you about this S&D.
Just read your comments truth_seeker. Interesting idea. I don't give a tinkers doo doo about the OP but, I'd quite happily accept any financial contribution from him/her, for being stupid enough to get mixed up with a married person. No problem with that, in the least, hehehe.
We obviously need some LBS Judges!
hugs Stayed
hugs Stayed...
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I have wanted to come back to this for some time. I printed it so I could really think about it completely. There is a lot here, but a lot that I don't know how to process. So, breaking it into chunks:
HB wrote:
Truthseeker hit the nail on the head with her reply; and you need to separate your personal feelings from what your husband is doing, LisaLives.
You're taking it personally, internalizing; and it has NOTHING do with you; and everything to do with him; if it hadn't been you, it would have been someone else.
What he is doing is NOT a reflection on you, or the example you may choose to set for your children.
And I ask:
I agree that what he is doing is not a reflection of me, but how I CHOOSE to react to it is the only thing I control. How are/were you SO CERTAIN your H would come out of it. I am not--so many people here believe they can be the lighthouse, but I believe I actually drove my H away... I loved him totally and completely, but how do I know he is not one who will be lost to the fog forever? In hindsight, he has never shown me any strength. I have been the one for the last 20 years that has bent and adapted to everything, and believe me, that was painful and difficult. I truly believe that my growth is what caused the death of our marriage. But my growth was also what saved my son's life, so there is no way I would give that back... Several weeks ago, when discussing part of our cancer journey, my other S14 asked me "when you were doing all this, what was Dad doing?" And I tried to be as diplomatic as possible and told him that Dad was always with me and we were a team, and he said, "well the way I saw it, dad was taking care of his parents, and you know having them around is like having two more kids..." Well I nearly drove off the road, that he knew something about my marriage and H's family dynamics that even I could never put into words was shocking...
HB wrote:
And I'm going to tell you something from having been married, and am still married to a man whose parents divorced when he was seven years old; he was MORE damaged and traumatized from the divorce; than he would have been had they been fighting all the time, like MY parents did...I SAW up close and personal the guilt, the shame and the deep trauma my husband was STILL carrying around after over 30 some odd years after his parents divorced right into his MLC.
This was the FINAL issue he had so much trouble facing; and it took him an additional SIX years to really start facing; but on top of that, God had to intervene, and allow circumstances to cause him to break his ankle; in order to bring him DOWN, helpless as the seven year old he was regressed to, emotionally, in order to FORCE him to face himself fully; and it still took him one more year to finish it all out.
I have learned a great deal from watching and observing him; his mother had discovered his dad was having an affair; and went right on, and filed for a legal separation, when he was 4, THEN, she got the final divorce from his dad, when he was 7...so she ran from what his dad did; never faced herself, NOR did the work; and though she never remarried; she kept trying to cause a division between my husband and his dad, instead of staying OUT of their business. It was definitely MLC; and his dad was dealing with the issues surrounding HIS parent's divorce when HE was small.....so the cycle was continuing there.
IMHO, NO matter how old a child is; divorce does do DEEP emotional damage; and the CHILDREN are the ones who get the brunt of the MOST damage, no matter how you, as an adult, might justify it, UNLESS you're in fear of your life because of physical abuse.
Sometimes God will lead a LBS out of the marriage; but most times, He won't; and the reasoning comes more clearly down the line; when the LBS has attained a greater understanding of themselves, AND of the crisis itself.
You don't even really know how the children will react to a divorce between the two of you; REGARDLESS of the reason...from what I have observed within my husband, I'm thinking it will damage them in ways you'd never expect.
No matter what a child will say; they ALWAYS feel they are at fault when Mom and Dad divorce; they feel they are the ones that are deficient; yet, they live in fear of being honest about their REAL feelings in that aspect; because they FEAR losing one or both parent's love; and they don't really have a choice, anyway; so they just go along......and it's sad that people are so quick to get a divorce, regardless of which side it comes from....I came to understand, that there is hope in every situation, as long as you still love the MLC spouse; and the damage they do; CAN be gotten past; but you have to be willing to do that kind of work to get there; as it's not easy.
Food for thought; and don't think for one minute, I haven't faced that crossroad of wanting to get a divorce; I did; and through someone the Lord sent to me; I was influenced away from making a life changing decision like that.
And I ask:
I do not WANT a divorce, he filed, he did the work, but as in the example given, how much of an obstacle am I supposed to make of myself. His wedding is planned. He believes in her and their R. They are soulmates... Yes, I think he's crazy, but I will look like the crazy one if I lay myself on the proverbial tracks. Isn't is better to step away and let them self-destruct on their own? Believe me I KNOW my kids are suffering and will probably feel the jabs forever, but what do I really risk by forcing myself to be strong and rise above all the insanity. I changed my entire life so I could get a job and health insurance and provide for my kids. In a way that forced him to go to her--he needed someone to NEED him. I think that if I had made myself weak and possibly suicidal, as I think she was, he might have come back to me, but would that have been the right thing to do--to pretend to be something I am not and never want to be, just to save my marriage?
HB wrote:
It's not my job to judge people for what they do; it's their life; but no one ever said life would be easy as pie for the whole time we are down here on this earth; trouble will always come in one form or another; and when it comes down to it; you will learn what's set before you, or keep cycling until you do learn, or die, whichever comes first...and I hadn't seen anybody get out of learning what THEIR part is within the breakdown of EVERY marriage; and yes, Ma'am, you, too, have your part; no matter what you say.
On the other hand, I really think the reason you don't "buy" working on yourself, is because, like most people; you are afraid of what you will see if you are totally no holds barred honest within yourself; I know I was; and I had your attitude once in the early days.....I asked why it was ME who had to do the work, when HE was the one who was doing wrong? I thought I was just fine and dandy.
Turned out I wasn't; I had my own part in the breakdown of our marriage; issues that I needed to look at, growing, changing, and becoming; and it took YEARS to accomplish everything I needed to for and within myself.
I've said this many times; and I'll say it again; if you think you don't have anything that needs working on; you're most likely the one with the BIGGEST issue within; because EVERYBODY has got baggage; no one is an exception..even those who have learned some of Life's Lessons, still have MORE to learn.
If both people within the marriage were all they were supposed to be and had been; the crisis would NOT have happened; just as my husband's crisis, and my transition would NOT have happened, had we been where we were supposed to be in our growth...our marriage didn't "cause" each of our individual periods of growth; our past ISSUES that were contained within our individual selves was what had caused his crisis; and my subsequent transition to happen.
And I ask:
Oh believe me, I have issues, I still have issues and things to work on, but after 19 years of marriage and being told that all our issues were mine, and believing him, and believing that his family was perfect where mine was SO dysfunctional, or as he always put it, nonfunctional, I felt like I finally got myself to a peaceful place, and that was what he found so threatening. After 19 years, I grew a backbone, and that scared him. I do not want to be the person I was when we married. I do not care that I will never be perfect enough for his mother--that's her issue not mine, but he has to grow enough to not care that I don't care, or it can never work. Is that wrong? A few years ago, I would have agreed with you, that I needed to do whatever it took to make my MIL happy, because that would make my H happy. But I finally realized that nothing was ever going to make her happy, so I would always lose. I loved him, but until he resolves his mommy issues, he will never be happy, not with me, or OW, himself or his kids--do I think he can get there, I have no idea...
HB writes:
My husband had an affair, LisaLives; my son also found out on his own, and urged me to get a divorce; he was 15; but I sat down with him, and explained a few things; one of which was that sometimes, it's NOT that easy; and the other was that there was still hope as long as I loved his dad; and was willing to stand for the marriage; I stood, mainly for MYSELF; my vows, and ultimately, my family; as there was a generation curse of 4 generations of divorce that had to be broken;(didn't know that until later on).
But what I showed our son in the example was this: You don't run at the first sign of trouble; you stand to see what's going to happen; and if you've got to stand in fire and brimstone, for a time, so be it; but you develop the courage to stand to see what will happen next; regardless of the breaking of their vows, you still have yours to consider; and children, especially older children, as I had; don't need to see that it's OK to run away; and they need to see, that it takes more strength to STAND; than it does to run away; and end up facing it again sometime later; somewhere else.
He did not understand at first; but later on, he understood more; as he watched me deal, grow, change; become, and in turn, teach him the lessons I was learning.
It was later when I realized the fruits of my labor had borne fruit, as he thanked me for what I had done to keep the family together against the odds....when you stand, it's always hard.
Just my .02 cents; based on my own experience; I know it's not easy; I know it's hard, very hard to know just the right thing to do; but in the end, YOU are the ONLY one who will be living with your decisions; good or bad, you will make your bed; and you will lay in it, hard or soft.
EVERYBODY has choices; don't ever think you don't have a choice; you ALWAYS have a choice; it may not be the right choice at times; but you always have a choice; you're not stuck, nor are you forced to stay where you are.....but when you make decisions, think them out carefully; because most of them, will affect the REST of your life; for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction; and for every action, there IS a consequence.
Now, me, I'm a survivor, and I teach survival; AND I'm also Pro Marriage; always have been, and always will be; and I know, from again, experience, that it is possible to survive and thrive IN SPITE of the crisis; though the journey was long; and sometimes the heartache was deep; I kept going; I knew I needed to; because the end would not be reached, if I stopped walking the journey for myself.
If anyone gets angry with what I post; I can't help that; I just know to tell the truth of what I see. No one, who walked with me from time to time during my journey ever told half truths, or lied to me, it was always the whole truth in whatever was told to me; and I didn't always want to hear it or understand it; but there were many seeds planted during that time; and these took root later on, beginning to grow, so someone else provided fertilizer and at a later time, someone else, provided water, in order to enhance the growth that was occurring within me; and I'm thankful for the tough love I got from time to time; the truth telling that was told to me, EVEN when I didn't want to hear it, and most of all, I am ever grateful for the genuine love that was also shown, even as the toughest things were said to me; that sometimes, broke me down, so I would see more clearly.
There is a breaking, a building up, another breaking, aspects; whole issues, and a journey; and it takes months, even years to finish; and even then, it's never finished; it continues; you learn till you're gone; and that's a fact.
Might as well get to it; time's getting on down the road, just like it always has...but if you don't, you really are hurting yourself; not me, not anyone else; because, it is ALWAYS up to you, and no one else.
There's no other way, I can approach any of this, but within the spirit of love and truth...because I have been there; different situation, same crisis, and most of the same circumstances...and I got through; you can too.
Where I stand now is attainable by anyone who wishes to walk the road, and take the time to grow, change, and become...in that process, you learn to accept and embrace, forgive, and heal...and time is what you have to work with...no time limit on how or when it's done...just so it gets done.
And I ask:
You say it is attainable by anyone. Do you really believe that? I believe that if I were willing to "play the game" and even he has called it that--to make his mother happy, I could have him back, but would it be worth it? I would have lost a son. OW is willing to do whatever it takes to make his mother happy. She has the right career and the right demeanor. I was always too strong for that--I wouldn't wear makeup 24/7, make sure I had a perfect manicure, and say whatever it took to impress their friends... How much should I give to save my marriage, and how do I weigh that against what I want my boys to see and respect in their own relationships?
I don't have the answers. Believe me, I know I don't and I have been challenged over and over and over in so many ways by so many people, I feel like I am dizzy from changing my mind--internally, of course, the decisions I have made have really been few, but life changing, like closing a business and getting a job. And I am not above working on myself--my new job has forced me to grow in ways I NEVER dreamed, and I practically s$%^ bricks every day before I get dressed, but I do it, for my kids, for health insurance, and a paycheck that means stability in MLC... But saving my marriage means not doing those things and being what he wants me to be--am I supposed to do that? If my kids were younger, I would probably stand and nurse him through this, but these are their formative years--and I'm not getting any younger. If he never comes out of this, I need a career that will give me a retirement and let me pay for college--I don't have time to worry about him, I have to worry about me, and my kids and grandkids. I felt and still feel like I can choose him, or me and my kids. Do you really think I can do both? If I did, I would sacrifice me, and what if I lose?
Thanks, from the bottom of my heart for making me think, and I don't disagree, but how do I know? Should I give it all up to get him back? I know I still could, but what if I lose?
I truly respect all of you and while I believe in marriage and I am loyal to a fault, my first loyalty is to my kids and I don't see standing for him at this point to be the equal to standing for them. What am I missing?
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I don't think you are really missing anything.
One of the impressions I get is that you either don't believe in, or don't accept the MLC process. As far as the issues with his mother that you referred to......those are emotional issues that are likely part of the cause of his MLC. The MLC process will utimately help him figure those things out. As todays blog from RCR mentions, Replay is about avoiding these issues.....but he will ultimately face them.....and other woman won't be the answer.
Will his marriage to other woman work out? Highly highly doubtful.
Will he get through the "fog"? Highly highly likely
I think there are a lot of things you are still unsure about.....and that's part of what Standing is about.....to help YOU figure those out. You can't control his behavior, but you can learn the Unconditionals and Accept the process of MLC.
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I agree that what he is doing is not a reflection of me, but how I CHOOSE to react to it is the only thing I control. How are/were you SO CERTAIN your H would come out of it.
I know that RCR states that she had a "knowing" that her marriage would be restored. HB has stated that she knew with or without her H that she would be okay. So, that tells me that she knew there was the chance that her marriage would not be restored. Most do not "know" - most are not certain. I wonder if my H will ever be back. While, at the same time, I feel deep inside that we are not finished. I'm not sure what this means - but I believe one day we will speak to each other and have some type of a closure.....whether or not we will reconcile....I don't know. I have to trust the fact that most MLCers do make it through the tunnel and most (if not all) regret that actions that they have taken while in the tunnel. I have hope that my H will come to this realization. On the other hand, if he does not - while on this journey - I will find that, like HB, I will be okay one way or the other. Today, I choose to Stand. Tomorrow, I choose to Stand. Some day, I may choose NOT to Stand - and be ready for a new relationship or some other path. Until then, I let it go - live my life like he isn't coming back - and try to find some joy. There is such a thing as free will. Your H has it. So, do you. In many cases, it is the LBS would makes the final determination of whether or not the marriage is restored. In some cases, the pain is too deep - the time is too long. This is up to you. You have choice. Just as I have choice.
I am not--so many people here believe they can be the lighthouse, but I believe I actually drove my H away... I loved him totally and completely, but how do I know he is not one who will be lost to the fog forever? In hindsight, he has never shown me any strength. I have been the one for the last 20 years that has bent and adapted to everything, and believe me, that was painful and difficult. I truly believe that my growth is what caused the death of our marriage. But my growth was also what saved my son's life, so there is no way I would give that back... Several weeks ago, when discussing part of our cancer journey, my other S14 asked me "when you were doing all this, what was Dad doing?" And I tried to be as diplomatic as possible and told him that Dad was always with me and we were a team, and he said, "well the way I saw it, dad was taking care of his parents, and you know having them around is like having two more kids..." Well I nearly drove off the road, that he knew something about my marriage and H's family dynamics that even I could never put into words was shocking...
I believe that you are taking responsibility for your H's crisis. You may feel that if you would have been like this, or you would have done that - then your H wouldn't have had a crisis. You did not cause it. Just as you cannot fix it. If you would have been more needy - it would have been because you were too needy. My H has had issues on and off for a long time. I did not cause them. But, he blamed me when he left. That is part of the script. Blaming the spouse - because the MLCer is not ready to take responsibility for their own actions.
Honestly, NOTHING you would have done would have changed anything. This is NOT your fault. Trust in this.
I do not WANT a divorce, he filed, he did the work, but as in the example given, how much of an obstacle am I supposed to make of myself. His wedding is planned. He believes in her and their R. They are soulmates... Yes, I think he's crazy, but I will look like the crazy one if I lay myself on the proverbial tracks. Isn't is better to step away and let them self-destruct on their own?
Yes. It is better to step back and stay out of it. There is no such thing as "soul mates." Love is a choice that is made by two people - who spend the time and live through the life experiences together. Any short term "schmoopie" love is infatuation....and hormones. Nothing more. I am not sure what you mean by laying on the proverbial tracks? Are you doing something self destructive? If so....stop. Your first and foremost responsiblity is to care for yourself. You cannot take care of your children unless you are first healthy and strong. Focus on that. If your H is getting married to the OW (there are others here with similiar siutations) - step back.....stay out of it....let "real life" hit them right between the eyes. This is not real. This is a fantasy.
Believe me I KNOW my kids are suffering and will probably feel the jabs forever, but what do I really risk by forcing myself to be strong and rise above all the insanity. I changed my entire life so I could get a job and health insurance and provide for my kids. In a way that forced him to go to her--he needed someone to NEED him. I think that if I had made myself weak and possibly suicidal, as I think she was, he might have come back to me, but would that have been the right thing to do--to pretend to be something I am not and never want to be, just to save my marriage?
You did not force him to go to her. Unfortunately, infidelity is a symptom of MLC. They MLCer needs a needy and helpless OW - as the MLCer feels poorly about himself. This needy and wanting person makes the MLCer feel better about himself. You do not need to nor should you compete with the OW. Again, she is not important. Just a symptom - like a runny nose or a cough. It is something an MLCer will do - during Replay. While in Replay the MLCer is avoiding facing the real issue (HIMSELF). Replay is avoidance. The OW is an avoidance. It is only through avoidance that the MLCer will be able to learn that even though he avoids dealing with his issues - the avoidance does not ultimately make him happy. He is then forced to face himself. This takes time (much time) so you need to stop watching the pot boil and get to living your life.
Pretending to be something or someone who is not you - will NOT save your marriage.
Oh believe me, I have issues, I still have issues and things to work on, but after 19 years of marriage and being told that all our issues were mine, and believing him, and believing that his family was perfect where mine was SO dysfunctional, or as he always put it, nonfunctional, I felt like I finally got myself to a peaceful place, and that was what he found so threatening. After 19 years, I grew a backbone, and that scared him. I do not want to be the person I was when we married. I do not care that I will never be perfect enough for his mother--that's her issue not mine, but he has to grow enough to not care that I don't care, or it can never work. Is that wrong? A few years ago, I would have agreed with you, that I needed to do whatever it took to make my MIL happy, because that would make my H happy. But I finally realized that nothing was ever going to make her happy, so I would always lose. I loved him, but until he resolves his mommy issues, he will never be happy, not with me, or OW, himself or his kids--do I think he can get there, I have no idea...
Good. You got it, there. My H also has Mommy issues. She is a controlling Narcissist. And guess where he is living right now? Yep. With his Mom and Dad. At 57! You are right. HE needs to deal with those Mommy issues. HE needs to grow up. OW will not solve it. Only HE can solve it. I understand how you feel about the MIL issues. My H always gave in to his Mother. This is something that I hope he changes (when he gets out of the tunnel) as this made him (and me) miserable for so many years. He will never be happy - until he becomes his own man - and speaks up for himself to his Mother. (Mine is the same way). I believe his Mommy issues are some of the main reason he is having an MLC today. (So, I have even more to "thank" her for).
You say it is attainable by anyone. Do you really believe that? I believe that if I were willing to "play the game" and even he has called it that--to make his mother happy, I could have him back, but would it be worth it? I would have lost a son. OW is willing to do whatever it takes to make his mother happy. She has the right career and the right demeanor. I was always too strong for that--I wouldn't wear makeup 24/7, make sure I had a perfect manicure, and say whatever it took to impress their friends... How much should I give to save my marriage, and how do I weigh that against what I want my boys to see and respect in their own relationships?
You do not need to become OW. So, don't try. You need to be yourself. We all have issues that we need to work on. Take this time to work on yourself. Take care of your kids. Leave your MLCer and OW to live their fantasy life. It will crumble on its own. You don't need to help it.
I don't have the answers. Believe me, I know I don't and I have been challenged over and over and over in so many ways by so many people, I feel like I am dizzy from changing my mind--internally, of course, the decisions I have made have really been few, but life changing, like closing a business and getting a job. And I am not above working on myself--my new job has forced me to grow in ways I NEVER dreamed, and I practically s$%^ bricks every day before I get dressed, but I do it, for my kids, for health insurance, and a paycheck that means stability in MLC... But saving my marriage means not doing those things and being what he wants me to be--am I supposed to do that? If my kids were younger, I would probably stand and nurse him through this, but these are their formative years--and I'm not getting any younger. If he never comes out of this, I need a career that will give me a retirement and let me pay for college--I don't have time to worry about him, I have to worry about me, and my kids and grandkids. I felt and still feel like I can choose him, or me and my kids. Do you really think I can do both? If I did, I would sacrifice me, and what if I lose?
You should never sacrifice yourself. Take care of you. Focus on the kids/grandkids. Take care of your career and future. He has to figure out his issues on his own. You need to let go of the idea that if you do something - he will come back or change. YOU cannot change that he is in MLC. YOU cannot do anything for HIM. Don't sacrifice yourself. DO the things you need to do. Let him go.
I truly respect all of you and while I believe in marriage and I am loyal to a fault, my first loyalty is to my kids and I don't see standing for him at this point to be the equal to standing for them. What am I missing?
Stand for yourself. Stand for your kids. Leave him to twist in the wind. Focus on YOUR life. He needs to go through his journey....and you, yours. It is not a journey that you can take together. I know this to be true.
Do not focus on your relationship or your H. Put it in a box on a shelf. Give it a rest.
I think you are doing what I did the first few months after my H left. I constantly questioned myself....I felt guilty....like I had driven him away. I felt responsible for the break up of my family. I think is was important that I looked at what I had done to lead to the demise of my marriage...but I also think it is important that I realized that this wasn't my fault. This was/is my H's issue. The kids and I are, unfortunately, collateral damage.
My priority was to pick myself up......get back to my life....and be a Mom to my kids. I let go of my husband.
Don't beat yourself up with guilt and remorse. Look at yourself...fix what needs fixing and be proud of yourself for doing it.
Hugs,
Limitless
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LisaLives
Wow! Limitless' post is awesome.
Here is something from RCR's current blog for you to really consider as you watch your husband's behavior and choices.
Replay cannot progress until the MLCer thinks the marriage is over and acts on that belief–though often with cycling confusion. Replay is an avoidance of issues, but avoidance is the manner in which midlife crisis facilitates facing issues; the MLCer must learn that denying and avoiding fail so that he can face the issues.
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my son also found out on his own, and urged me to get a divorce; he was 15;
That is interesting, both my children have urged me to divorce. They are older S19, D21. They feel it will be easier for them if the ties are cut completely. Quite extraordinary really because before we all found out about the adultery the three of us adored W. We were a close loving family.
I was saying to S & D that their mum was unwell, that something was causing her to act like a teenager again and they responded by saying to me "dad, even teenagers know right from wrong". I didn't know how to reply to that.
honour
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They feel it will be easier for them if the ties are cut completely.
The easier way is not always the best way.
I hope you don't make decisions based on what your children want. It is not their marriage. Or their decision.
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They feel it will be easier for them if the ties are cut completely.
The easier way is not always the best way.
I hope you don't make decisions based on what your children want. It is not their marriage. Or their decision.
In light of truth_seekers post I was simply sharing my experience of how children can view this thing.
honour
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In my case my D17 said the same thing about wanting me to divorce her father. When I asked her why she said 'to punish him'.
CrazyStuff
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In my case my D17 said the same thing about wanting me to divorce her father. When I asked her why she said 'to punish him'.
CrazyStuff
Interesting. For my D21 I think she is so disgusted by her mother she doesn't want to be associated with her, for my son I think he will find it less stressfull for him.
And no, I won't divorce or not divorce based on their views but it is important, even at their ages, to keep an eye on them and make sure they are coping ok.
One of W lines before she ran away was "the children are old enough to understand". Well, it seems they understand but not the way she was thinking.
honour
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I think Llimitless wrote excellently, and, as usual, DGU hits the nail on the head in just a couple of sentences.
LisaLives, I certainy agree that "pretzeling" yourself -- doing whatever it takes to please MIL, for example, isn't the way to go. you are right there. you are right about a lot -- the bit about sorting out your career, taking care of your kids, all that. That's living YOUR life.
We're all uncertain; I've had some experiences that I might call "knowings", but I know that my own fears and anxieties get in the way of those, and that I still have no idea if my H will turn back to me or not.
What I do know is that this takes a long, long time. I remember reading in the Divorce Remedy chapter on MLC (and it just glosses over it, to tell you the truth) that you should think of something that required more patience (I think that was the word) than anything you could ever imagine, and then multiply by a million and you might begin to have an idea. In other words just a huge amount of time.
It IS a process. For us as LBS as well, I think. I've gone through the thinking that I drove him away with my anxieties or what have you; we didn't have a cancer experience but do have children with special needs that pretty much consumed me for 10 years. And, like you describe, I used to never feel that my H was "in it" with me; he found it hard to deal with and found reasons not to participate.
Like you, I spent a lot of the first couple of years thinking "but I had no choice" but to deal with children situation; I, too, felt and still know that if I hadn't put all that effort in my children wouldn't be where they are today. At BD my H accused me of feeling that life had dealt me a "bad hand", that he just wanted to be light; I just got angry and thought that I'd be happy to be more lighthearted if I had more support with the serious stuff.
That was all before I really understood that this is a process. And I can tell you that it took me over 2 years to see that I hadn't accepted the process. And I'm STILL working on surrendering to it.
I know those feelings. I can tell you that in the intervening years H has admitted that the effort I put in was necessary (and he has also forgotten he said that...); I have watched him go through all sorts of things; grasping for the golden ring only to find that it wasn't the holy grail. But he continues to go his separate way.
It's so hard to separate out their actions from our feelings, if that makes sense; or rather, it's so hard not to attribute huge meaning to every action. My H continues to assert his extreme separateness from me/us; I still get a sinking feeling with each thing; must remember that it's part of the process rather than something very personal against us. And believe me, I know how hard that is.
Trust the process. And learning to do that takes time as well.
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Limitless,
Your post was awesome. I am soooo happy you are my mentor. :D
All my adult children have told me to divorce H and that they don't want to have anything to do with him. They tell me I'll find someone else who will treat me better.
I tell them that yes he is an a$$hole, but he's my a$$hole and I want him back. I also encourage them to have a relationship with him. I tell them that it's never good
to cut people out of their lives. H even accused me of trying to turn the kids against him. I told him that I don't say anything bad about him and I tell them not to cut him
out and to call each one and ask them. I don't think he ever did.
There is no easy path here and I struggle everyday. But as HB said I will be fine with or without him.
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Limitless,
Great Post and comments as always :)
Foxy xxx
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Hello everybody, I have similar comments from my 2 D (25 & 21), that I should Divorce my wife as this affair has gone on since Feb 2007 and BD Jun 2009,was I blind? In May I went home , I work away luckily, and my wife said she did not want a Divorce, wanted her family back, but her narcissist boyfriend was pushing. So I expected nothing.
A week later I was wrong footed and received papers siting my unreasonable behaviour, but it was all lies. She had signed the papers the following day.
I asked my wife why she wrote all that stuff and she said...well I had to put something but even the solicitor thought it was 'limp'. I asked why she thought I would sign lies. She said this has to end because 'people are hurting now'. They have been hurting for 3 years.
So on advice from my lawyer he said I could contest and counter petition. So I answered her petition with counter to each point and brought an adultery petition naming her boyfriend. So now the narcissist has it on his plate and so far there has been no papers signed. Neither my wife or her boyfriend have acknowledged so far.
I told my solicitor to just sit on it now. They need time to think.
Clearly both my wife and this narcissist boyfriend are both in MLC and feeding each other. But when it is right between the eyes, they are a little stunned. Am I right ?
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If you read my thread you'll know my H has continued to threaten D. So early on, in order to protect myself I issued him with L separation papers as this is an option in the state I live. Threw my H into panic, went to court and got a temp order siting his OW in the legal order to stay away from kids and any other future OW relations among other things.
Now fast forward to a few weeks back, my H in one of his "temper tantrums" throws at me that I served him with papers to D him! As if this was my choosing to which I calmly replied that was not in fact the case and go look back at the legal papers to see what it really was. Also throw in a few truth darts in the process as this was actions taken based on a lack of trust in him and will need to be earned rather than given blindly. So now we have another court hearing coming up to make the legal S final. I have mixed feelings but I am ok with whatever the outcome right now. That may change as it closer to the day.
I share this because it's clear the MLCer doesn't know what they want. D one minute then pain the next. I took his toy away and he's having a tantrum. Mommy is no longer mothering this boy! LOL Not being disrespectful but that's how I have to think of my H at this time to remind me he's not finished growing up.
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My God truth_seeker, you are so right. I did not realise that this (divorce threat) was just another toy.
My wife in fact has since this happened said she does not want to communicate with me now (she wasn't much before) she says I am frightening. I think because nothing seems to phase me now, everything is in shreds and I'm still standing, but yes another toy has been removed.
It was always a threat before, then a push and now the table has turned she (or they) dont like it. It can't be used any more.
Certainly she is looking for a fight, but I wont give her a fight. It is truly a tantrum.
I too am quite relaxed about the process as for me the bond of about 35 years together does not break with a licence being taken away, a divorce simply would make things more obvious.
I believe this is part of their journey to try and blame it all on others. It must be very frightening.
There is always the possibility that they could remain with this alienator, and that must be even more frightening for them. At my age I dont have so much time to rebuild, but I can just go and sit on a beach.
Thank you everyone for echoing my experiences, it makes me realise I am not going mad.