Midlife Crisis: Support for Left Behind Spouses
Archives => Archived Topics => Topic started by: StandandDeliver on September 05, 2011, 03:36:32 AM
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OK, despite all the great advice on this website, which I think is very helpful in getting us past BD and clearly works in some situations, I have read numerous accounts and articles (including many anecdotal and personal testimonies on this site) which suggest that for some MLCers the only thing that makes them "wake-up" and regret their decision, is when the LBS actually finds herself in a happy new relationship and doesn't even want the original marriage back anymore. Some people say that it is time that makes a difference, but by the admission of MANY MLCers themselves, it was when they saw their former spouse moving into a relationship without them that they panicked and thought "what have I done?". I think that for us LBS's this presents a bit of a conundrum. And I worry that this is more the case with" on and off's" and vanishers.
It makes me worry that for a percentage of MLCers the ONLY thing that his going to make them face themselves and reality is when reality slaps them across the face with the truth: they have lost the LBS forever. Which means that some of us may be standing when the only thing that could get the MLCer looking our way is to STOP standing and find someone new, and write off the first marriage.
I am playing devil's advocate somewhat here, I know, but I would like a discussion on this because I know that standing worked for some on here, but what if there really is no "one size fits all" approach. What if some of us are better off just cuttint our losses and finding a special new person to love for the rest of our lives because our MLCer is never going to come back anyway...if you see what I mean?
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StandandDeliver ~ I must say that I totally agree with you. I have read numerous articles to stating that when the MLCer finds out the LBS has someone new in his/her life, that seems to wake them up. Then the MLCer persues the LBS. I have thought about this alot. I am thinking of just letting my H think I have
met someone else. I feel like the MLCers feel like the LBS is just sitting back, waiting on them to come back. They love that.
I am in no way ready to date nor do I want too. But I am tired of my H thinking I am just sitting here waiting for him to come back. I have never told him that
I want him back. We have never discussed anything since he left. He's a conflict avoider and he was never one to communicate at all. When he left he told me I deserved better and he wanted me to find someone else. :o I couldn't understand that. At that time I didn't know he was already living with someone else. :o :o
So now I know he wanted me to find someone else to take the guilt of himself. Didn't work! I seriously don't know how he could think I could start dating right away when he ditched me in a phone call and I never saw it coming. Wierd.
So now I am almost into this 7 months. So I think I may let him think I am dating. Others may not agree with this, but I know my H better than anyone and I think it would really bother him. I don't know........it's definately something to think about.
NB
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Good topic.
I think the one thing that I must point out is that there is a time and place for everything.
You may be right with your assessment of this issue, but that does not mean that if you just start dating that you will get you marriage back.
That is also not fair to the person you are dating.
You must be emotionally whole and know where you made your mistakes.
If not you are more than likely just going to cycle back with your new partner to the place that you are in with the old relationship.
You would still be dependent or co-dependent on another person.
I think I have read somewhere that you should wait at least 1 month for every year that you have been married.
There is good reasons for that.
Any ways I look forward to this discussion and will try to participate.
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OP - you are absolutely right I think. And that is why it is a catch-22. In order for some spouses to "snap out of it", the LBS's actually have to have REALLY moved on and found someone new. Which really renders the marriage almost unsalvageable. I do not think that it would be right for anyone to "use" a completely unsuspecting stranger to accomplish the reunification of a marriage.
Maybe pretending might work, but it would be hard to pull off tbh and it would be worse that humiliating if the MLCer ever caught wind of the pretense (which, I think NB is why I would caution against any obvious fabrications - if he happens to "wonder" because you are going out alot in the evenings or not answering the phone at night or something then fine, but I would avoid actively saying that you are doing something that you are not doing as a ploy.)
I just wonder if counselling everyone that if they just wait long enough their partners might come back actually interrupts the healing process (or gets it stuck after a number of months) for people whose spouses simply won't return or even experience true regret unless reality forces them to acknowledge that they have really lost the LBS for good. In which case counselling people to wait until they are emotionally healthy to start a new relationship would seem wise, giving them advice on working on co-dependancy issues remains wise, and information on healthy habits to take into a new R as well as signs of being ready to be able to handle a new R might be helpful. And maybe ways to keep working on themselves even once in a new relationship would seem to be just as necessary as giving people advice on how to salvage a marriage or reconciliation if a MLCer comes back... I know that that is not the purpose of this forum, this forum wants to see marriages saved (as do I!) but I wonder if RCR needs a "sister site" for people who feel that standing has ended, that they wish to continue to work on themselves, they want to maintain a reasonable R with the old spouse especially if children are involved and still require dealing with MLCer help for that, but are venturing back into the world of relationships... sorry, just thinking as I write now ...
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This is a very interesting subject because this is also what I have seen with other people AND my own experience. My wife also said after BD, 'you deserve someone better' but I think statements like this are fishing for you to give their self esteem a boost.
I saw with other people who have been through this that they come awake when their partner moves on with someone else. Then they are truly sad and can see the destruction for the first time, because it finally impacts on them. Until that point they feel they have a reserve parachute, YOU.
My wife has this other guy, wont give him up, so I leave to find work in another country. He is a severe case or Narcissism, very controlling obnoxious character. My daughters hate him with a vengence and they are not children.
Each time I went home (I left to work away) my wife would say 'have you met anyone else'. I would say truthfully 'Yes I meet many people at work, but they dont compare, I am very picky'.
My wife and I were still friendly and getting on OK, but I will not share my life with this other person, this narcissist.
But I went home in May and I had whilst I was away this time, been surprised to meet a lady who really had the fireworks going off, and this for only the second time in my life. This is someone you meet and instantly it is special.
So when my wife ask me the same old question, I answer truthfully...'Well actually YES, I have met someone rather special and she is very different'.
A few hours later my wife wants to 'have a talk' she asks me the details and I explain that this is really someone special, not just an ordinary person but she really lights me up and it seems it is mutual.
She is very cuddly that evening watching TV, also very unusual over the past year it has been difficult. She makes a hint, saying that reconcilliation would be hard. I agree, but say nothing is impossible.
The next morning I get ready from the spare room to go to the airport and my wife is waiting to see me off. This is unusual. Then she is in hysterics.
She does not want a divorce, wants her life back, wants everyone to come home. Tears, tears and more tears. So I ask who wants a divorce. She says her new man wants her to divorce or he wont hang around. I explain that this has clearly always been the problem, no matter how well we get on he is in the way, now after 2 years being apart enough is enough.
The following day she signed divorce papers blaming me, I disagreed and filed for Adultery naming him so that he has to sign. And now it is parked, because they dont want to face that and sign.
I think they are both in MLC and they dont want to face things, dont want to accept responsibility. But they want a reserve parachute.
Take it away.
This week my daughter tells me that her Mum is finally talking, talking. What a mess she is in.
But is she just cycling?
When you have been with a woman you love for over 30 years, it hurts like hell to see them cry, but you have to hide that pain and just be careful that you dont hurt someone else in the process.
I need to be alone a little longer, even if there are fireworks.
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Good topic S&D,
I am 44 years old, a divorcee with 2 children, I'm self employed and quite attractive - my primary love language is 'quality time' and I am on the cusp of an amazing part of my life - I never one imagined in my wildest dreams that I would post something like this anywhere (in RL or VL!).
I have stood for my marriage, I didn't initiate divorce proceedings and when they were served I didn't fight it BUT I did the best fiscal deal I could to secure my kids future. I believe I have protected my children from most of the fallout of their Dad leaving me and marrying the OW - all this and I am almost 2 years to BD anniversary (which was also my 14th wedding anniversary).
I have a space in my life where my exH once stood - I haven't rushed out to fill that with another man in my life as I recognised very early on that I would be jumping from the frying pan into the fire. I cannot see myself going out and 'finding' a man but I believe I am in a good place (emotionally) to meet someone and take it from there.
I had a brief fling last summer with a guy - it was fun and carefree and he helped me through a very difficult time with my exH (inadvertently I have to say!!) but he is an alcoholic and I didn't want to be with a guy who was in denial about his issues. He showed me that I could take a risk and feel like the 'old me' again - it really brought out Mr Angry in my exH (hmmmm I know!). I didn't feel guilty for seeing this guy - all things happen for a reason - but I realised that I need to be in tip top emotionally healthy place for any future relationship I had to be on good solid ground.
My two children told me on holiday in July that they'd be discussing it and have decided I need a boyfriend - how touched was I that they raised it with me...we discussed it but they understand it really isn't a priority for me right now.
As far as my exH is concerned I treat him with kindness and respect and believe that when he has travelled his MLC I will be able to have some kind of relationship with him but right now that is not possible - he is not someone I would want in my life if I met him now (and I have met lots of men who are in MLC mode when I've been out and about and GALing!!).
I am still 'work in progress' and have lots of male friends but feel very strongly that I will meet someone when the time is right and that because of the hard work I've done I will be able to make he most of that relationship with a clear conscience - it could be with my exH but it wouldn't be the end of the world if it wasn't.
I wouldn't judge anyone who went out and started dating but I would counsel them that MLCers are running from pain and dealing with their issues and we need to be careful that we don't end up doing excatly the same. I have this exact situation with a friend and I can see she is on a road to self destruction trying to 'get on with her life' as it's 'my time to live' - all MLC script but I don't believe she's in MLC, I think she is in pain and just wants it to stop.....
good topic and I am really looking forward to seeing the discussion develop.
P
xx
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I wonder the same thing also. Do they need some sort of monumental BOMB DROP themselves? Do they get stuck where they are because they are confident that we will wait it out? I have been jerked around by my H not knowing what he wants, thinks or feels. I think I should hit him with a waffle iron and see if he thinks or feels anything after that. >:(
To give up on 30 yrs of marriage is painful. But it is also painful to have the hope that someday, any day now, things could turn around. It may never happen. I know I am becoming a better person because of this, but heck, can't I still have some flaws? LOL Why do I have to fix everything about me? So at this juncture, if it is 1 month for every year together, I will be almost 60 before I can even start thinking about a new relationship. Ugh!
OP, give me a call some time in the year 2016 and we can go for coffee and see if we like each other. ;D ;D ;D
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I wouldn't judge anyone who went out and started dating but I would counsel them that MLCers are running from pain and dealing with their issues and we need to be careful that we don't end up doing excatly the same. I have this exact situation with a friend and I can see she is on a road to self destruction trying to 'get on with her life' as it's 'my time to live' - all MLC script but I don't believe she's in MLC, I think she is in pain and just wants it to stop.....
EXACTLY - Very well put.
OP, give me a call some time in the year 2016 and we can go for coffee and see if we like each other. ;D ;D ;D
Oh I am not going to wait that long to meet you, but date yes I will have to really think about that.
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Such a timely discussion, as I recently posted an account from a former MLC W who states that she woke up once she saw that her H had found someone new, and now she is desperately trying to win him back and feels a world of guilt over what she did to both their lives. It DOES seem like she was carrying on with no end in sight until HE moved on. I've been debating this over and over in my head about whether or not my W would ever come to the point where she can honestly assess her own issues and turn back to me. I know it has happened for some, but I just cannot see myself slogging through years of this and dealing with things I never thought I could. I don't want this to kill me in the process.
I'm very interested to find out where the information came from about people waking up after their spouse had moved on. I would not want my W to come back just to keep someone else from having me, but rather because she honestly wants to be with me. If you could point us to (or even better copy/ paste and share on here) some other accounts of former MLCers who have stated that this is what brought them out I would greatly appreciate it.
Also, I just want to add I disagree with the "1 month for every year of marriage." Everyone is different and should start dating when THEY feel like they're ready. Am I ready for another R? No. A roll in the hay? Maybe. I would be curious as to what length an LBS would have to go to in order for the MLCer to wake up.
I think HB even states that her H became fearful that he would lose her for good and this is what started him turning back. Of course, she had no one else but it was that fear in him that sparked the change. Definitely something to explore. As someone said yesterday, we are pioneers here!!!
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I am delighted that you and I will meet sooner rather than later. About the dating, I will not be PURSUING. I have learned somethings here. ;D
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Love the thread....
I often wonder this same thing, when I went through PPD, it was when my H moved on that brought me closure
to waking up.
but, I think it would depend on the type of MLCer we have. My H would think "It was his fault" so "she should date"
I am a firm believer that this is what he would do. I am not sure he would all of sudden decide to come home.
He has to much guilt for that. but then again who knows!
When I signed up for the dating site, he was concerned that I was spending money on something so "pointless"
but he didnt beg me to stop. H knows that I am not ready or even willing to date another man.
But, I also said I would wait a year from the date him and OW met...well that date is fast approaching (sept 11th)
and I think he may be worried about that. (being in NY and all) LOL!!!
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Hmm, Syn
Could that be a reason he's moving back now?
Remember us all joking about that LBS dating site? Maybe we should all start dating each other and drum up a few more success stories with our MLCers. I think RCR said the ratio of men to women here was 1 to 4, so I MIGHT actually be able to get a date under those circumstances. Maybe. LOL!!
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Thundarr,
This woman blogs about how she basically had some sort of crisis and an EA (she does not admit to this but it is what appears to be the case) and then after divorcing her husband and leaving him and their children to shack up with her new man she has a lightbulb moment. Now, she states that it was science that brought them back together, but she also mentions that when she finally takes the step to get her H back, he has just embarked on a new R himself (she makes that sound very incidental, but I personally think it is something of a coincidence that the lightbulb goes off around the time her H is considering becoming serious with another woman (ie creating a new family for the husband and sons she abandoned). So it is anecdotal, yes, but I think you learn more from what she doesn't say than what she does tbh.
Also, if you read the return stories thread on the Community board, many of the stories include spouses realising "too late" i.e after the wife or h has found a new partner, that they have lost them.
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/marry-divorce-reconcile/201101/boomerang-the-short-story-divorce-reconciliation-and-remarriage
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Thundarr,
I really dont know if that could be the reason....maybe it is and it pushed him to "think" about what he is doing?
I have no clue...but, at this point it means nothing until I see some action..lol
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I came across this today:-
Change of scene has no effect upon unconscious conflicts.
--Edmund Bergler, M.D.
There's no running away from the internal strife. Whatever haunts us must finally be confronted and resolved if we're ever to grow and thus contribute to our world its due. When we keep secrets locked away, the secrets begin to keep us locked away as well.
It is folly, and yet entirely human, to think a new location, a new job, a new lover will cure whatever troubles us. The truth is, however, that whatever trips us up is at the same time trying to edge us forward to new awareness, and thus the next level of growth. Our troubles are tools for a strengthened foundation. Without them, we'd soon crumble.
When we consider the conflicts we encounter as opportunities for further development, they excite us rather than provoke anxiety. Changing our perspective can make the same scene appear quite new.
I think it seems relevant to this thread??
P
x
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Here is the most recent post from "Sue," whose testimony I posted on my thread and on the Discussion about MLC bad behavior. Her post from earlier this morning was very timely as she was the one I referenced as waking up WHEN she realized her H had found someone else. She clarifies this a bit and adds a little more to it. Again, copied and re-presented with permission:
"One of the turning points for me was knowing that he was interested in seeing someone else but that was one of the later incidents. When I came home to visit my grand kids were at my house, everything seemed right, more right than it had in a long time. I came home in winter to our house is in the mountains, it was the warmest winter day on record and with the sun shining in the gum trees everything looked so beautiful and so right. I already had feelings that my new relationship was not even close to being suitable and spending time with my man cemented all this. So it wasn't just that he was starting to see someone else. The lightning bolt took many forms as if someone knew I needed to be overloaded to see the truth.
Part of the MLC disorder does not allow us to be introspective. As far as I was concerned at the time I was making all the right choices in my life and part of me didn't understand why my man was trying to hold on to me. I did not see it as cake eating.
I have always loved my man but those feelings of 'I love you but I'm not in love with you' have a way of breaking onto the surface. I didn't see that he was waiting for me rather I saw that he was not getting on with his life. It's a subtle difference but an important one. I never went out of my way to hurt him and I never disregarded his feelings it's more like it wasn't relevant (even though of course it was).
I am in no way trying to excuse my behaviour but life witnin the MLC is very different and I felt differently about everything. My parents and my son all tried to reach out to me but I saw it more as trying to interfere than trying to help. We have no insight into ourselves at this time. We think we do but it a very warped version of reality. To the point where you ask yourself why aren't my friends and family ahppy with my new choices.
I hope this explains a little bit from inside the MLC mind. I know from some of the stories I have read on here that many people experiencing the MLC become cruel and heartless. At no time was it my intention to hurt anyone, even myself but the victim count becomes higher the longer the MLC continues.
Sue"
So, this advances our discussion a little more. The thought of losing her H WAS a catalyst, but not the only one. This brings up questions about whether there is a point in the MLC process that this tactic would be effective and if there was a point it could be disastrous. Also, is the fact that her current R wasn't stable a factor? And, lastly, was she coming out of the fog anyway and starting to see things? I've posted questions to her for clarification and will bring them over once she has replied.
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I've been trying to read quickly and just want to weigh in briefly...hope brief is possible with me. ::)
First, I just emailed Rachel Clark--her Blog is Marry, Divorce Reconcile referenced in Reply # 12. I asked her if she'd like to comment--either directlyto me or by registering...so we will see.
There seems to be a confusion that this cannot be a part of Standing. Well that's not precisely true. It can be a tactic used if the Stander is not actually dating but it may appear so--it may simply be GAL that an MLCer sees and fills in the blanks on their own.
If you are truly dating, then yes, that's not Standing anymore--not my definition of it at least.
I sacred Sweetheart in the end though. I made sure to not be home a few times when he got home from swing shift. I was hanging out at Borders--can't do that anymore.
But for him it was just a tidbit fear I think, because he knew me. And yet he didn't see through it either, he was overtly curious, bugging me about who I was with and was it a guy. It was hilarious.
The thought of losing her husband WAS a catalyst, but not the only one. This brings up questions about whether there is a point in the MLC process that this tactic would be effective and if there was a point it could be disastrous. Also, is the fact that her current relationship wasn't stable a factor? And, lastly, was she coming out of the fog anyway and starting to see things? I've posted questions to her for clarification and will bring them over once she has replied.
But as Thundarr pointed out, it's merely one of the catalysts. An MLCer still has to go through the tunnel and be at a point where they are ready. If your Replayer sees you dating, this may be a great relief--they can either stop feeling guilt about their own infidelity or they can even blame you for being the one to cheat.
Also, is the fact that her current R wasn't stable a factor?
Relationships with an MLCer--so an MLCer's relationships are not stable--not while in the crisis. Sure, some MLCers marry the alienator and sometimes they last--ask my step mother's alienator. But in crisis those relationships are not stable; if they become stable it is because of the what they build once out of the crisis.
Was she coming out of the fog anyway and starting to see things?
I won't speak for her specifically, but in general, yes. That's why it was one of a few catalysts. Hey, some MLCers have come home prematurely and stayed after such a scare. But it's like coming home with a gun at your head and maybe things will be okay or even seem great for years...until the crisis repeats itself.
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IMO it is possible to move forward and on without our MLC without dating. I think the MLCer can 'feel' the distance increasing and that our lives are becoming happier and more content as time moves on. Two weeks ago when I told my H I could no longer stay in our home and it would be sold he looked absolutely crestfallen. It is possibly the last tie between us as a married couple. When he comes today the for sale sign is up. Another blow. This isn't to catch him but is athe reality of his bad decisions.
Remember we have a journey as well and that must be completed otherwise we make the same mistakes all over again in any new relationship we might have.
I have a friend whose H went into MLC. He was deep in replay and she was distraught. We spoke at huge length about the process and our journey. Bang on the first anniversary of BD she met someone else and fell head over heels.
Sadly I watch this relationship 18 months in and she is making all the same mistakes she made with her marriage. All the things that are happening are the things she said had gone for good. She abandoned her journey and fell in love.
Wonder what the future holds for them.
Meanwhile her H remains in replay and not moving forward at all.
xx
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"OK, despite all the great advice on this website, which I think is very helpful in getting us past BD and clearly works in some situations, I have read numerous accounts and articles (including many anecdotal and personal testimonies on this site) which suggest that for some MLCers the only thing that makes them "wake-up" and regret their decision, is when the LBS actually finds herself in a happy new relationship and doesn't even want the original marriage back anymore."
Is a new relationship for the LBS what makes them "wake up", or did they just simply make their way through the MLC process? It would seem to be the latter.
And if the LBS has actually moved on, they would not be a Stander......so the information on this website would not be applicable to them from that vantage point.
Also, I'm not sure it's a wise choice if an LBS is actually dating someone, and using that to try to manipulate the MLCer.
MLC Takes Time. And the MLC process must be gone through.
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DGU:
Also, I'm not sure it's a wise choice if an LBS is actually dating someone, and using that to try to manipulate the MLCer
I agree which is why I clarified my point when I wrote the following in my second post
I do not think that it would be right for anyone to "use" a completely unsuspecting stranger to accomplish the reunification of a marriage
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DGU:And if the LBS has actually moved on, they would not be a Stander......so the information on this website would not be applicable to them from that vantage point.
Again, I understand that having a relationship ends a stand, that was sort of my point with the whole catch 22 thing - the new R presupposes the LBS moving on, so if my hypothesis (that some MLCers don't "see the light"
I know that that is not the purpose of this forum, this forum wants to see marriages saved (as do I!) but I wonder if RCR needs a "sister site" for people who feel that standing has ended, that they wish to continue to work on themselves, they want to maintain a reasonable R with the old spouse especially if children are involved and still require dealing with MLCer help for that, but are venturing back into the world of relationships...
My question was really about whether we give a sort of false hope to certain LBS's when we say that MLCer wake up eventually - everyone thinks: "That will be my H/W then" because we deeply want it to be.
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sorry - randomly cut part of my own post before hitting reply.
my hypothesis (that some MLCers don't "see the light" until the LBS is in a new R) suggests that for some standing was never going to work and so the LBS may as well move on:
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My question was really about whether we give a sort of false hope to certain LBS's when we say that MLCer wake up eventually - everyone thinks: "That will be my H/W then" because we deeply want it to be
I anxiously await the answer to this question. Is it enough to think/ know that most do wake up? Are we wasting precious opportunities? How much do we REALLY know?
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Sometimes trying to think and type and post with 2 preschoolers ranting in the background is impossible - sorry for all the errors!
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whether we give a sort of false hope to certain LBS's when we say that MLCer wake up eventually - everyone thinks: "That will be my H/W then"
That is why we try to encourage everyone to concentrate on ourselves and children. Focusing on the MLCer has the potential to keep you dangling forever and none of us what that. None of us know the outcome other than we have a right to a happy fullfilled life for ourselves.
That is why we also have to learn that we can be happy for ourselves and not rely on our H/W.
All this is very difficult and even us 'oldies' still cycle and get pulled in sometimes. When God gave us emotions He sure made all this very difficult.
But I wonder how many LBS think that part of taking the focus off the MLCer is about focusing on potential dates as a way to happiness?
xx
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I think it would depend on the MLCer type.
What if you have a vanisher and the LBS hasnt spoken or seen their W/H for more then lets say 6 months..
How would the MLCer even know that the LBS has "moved on?"
Even if its "fake" or "real" I dont think sending an email to the MLcer saying "Hey, check this out.im dating now"
(not trying to be rude here) I dont have a vanisher, so I wouldnt know. But it seems it would play a part in it.
If you have a CB...it might be easier. but then again, I think CB's may carry more guilt and think it is in the best interest
of the LBSer to move on anyway.
Its all a catch 22, like S&D says....
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But I wonder how many LBS think that part of taking the focus off the MLCer is about focusing on potential dates as a way to happiness?
I would hate to think that dating is a "way to happiness", but it is a way to companionship once we have found happiness or, at least, contentment within ourselves. I am not suggesting that 5 mins after BD people run out and start speed dating, what I am suggesting is that the idea the getting involved means that WE are the ones ending the possibility of reconciliation could keep some of us dangling on the cusp of moving on far longer than we might if we accepted that our MLCer may NEVER see the light (or at least not until we ARE happily inside another relationship with a meaningful companion).
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I think this may come down to whether the LBS trusts and accepts the MLC process. I don't know the answer (or if there is an answer) as to whether the LBS moving on plays a role in waking up the MLCer. I don't believe it does, but that's simply my personal belief.
From the Stories and Human Behavior article.
An MLCer may become stuck, but those are the rare cases. More common is for a person to regret their actions--often when they are too late because the spouse has closed the opportunity for marital reconciliation.
Yes, dating is a way to companionship. I have been divorced for over a year and would be the first to confess that the lack of companionship is tough. I also believe that my ex-wife is still way too entwined in my life (and me in hers) for me to move on.
And from my belief perspective, I believe God is more interested in my holiness (becoming Christ-like) than my happiness. I know not everyone shares the same belief system, but that is mine.
This is also from RCR in the article Stories and Human Behavior. I find it inspiring.
I believed in MLC and the process. I believed that MLC was a time of confusion; I believed in the concept of the Shadow and related fears that brought out. This helped me to understand Sweetheart's mixed up choices. I did not agree with them, but I gained an intellectual understanding. I believed in the addictive power of in-fatuation as well as the power of toxic guilt applied through emotional blackmail and this facilitated my compassion. Because I believed I was open to seeing Sweetheart's pain as well as progress.
This is from RCR earlier in this thread. It is understanding things like this that have helped me to know that my ex-wife is not capable of a relationship while in her crisis. I have witnessed this to be very true in my friend's situation.
"Relationships with an MLCer--so an MLCer's relationships are not stable--not while in the crisis. Sure, some MLCers marry the alienator and sometimes they last--ask my step mother's alienator. But in crisis those relationships are not stable; if they become stable it is because of the what they build once out of the crisis."
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Relationships with an MLCer--so an MLCer's relationships are not stable--not while in the crisis. Sure, some MLCers marry the alienator and sometimes they last--ask my step mother's alienator. But in crisis those relationships are not stable; if they become stable it is because of the what they build once out of the crisis
But then there is an article somewhere that says that if the MLCer is still WITH the alienator they are probably still in crisis. So in order to come out of crisis the alienator needs to be dropped, and if an alienator is dropped how can they build something together post-crisis? What if your MLCer is a vanisher, or an on and off - how can we possibly pave the way, or be the lighthouse? How can we even know that they have not ALREADY started to exit the crisis WITH the alienator by their side?
I am sorry, as I said, I am just playing devil's advocate and probably not asking anything terribly new, but I do still have these (possibly unanswerable) questions.
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I think we can all agree that this is not an exact science. I am 59 years old married for 31 years. Hmm, I dont think I would last so long based on the formula.
Many MLC dont come out the end, many come out too late.
It is hard being a stander, but you have to go with your heart and your conscience. My daughters said they wanted to see me happy again after I have watched this game for four years.
Will it end, wont it? Should I toss a coin. If it ends, will she be the same woman I knew?
One thing is certain, from a man's perspective there are many single ladies if you can be bothered after all this pain.
But I do think cake eating stops when they think the reserve may be lost.
Keep thinking, each case is different but surprisingly similar.
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I posted this on my wall in relation to a discussion there, but upon catching up here I think it fits very well here also:
You all make extremely valid points. I DO love my W, and I love her unconditionally. I do not feel she is herself right now even though I see glimpses of the real her. She acts like she is an addict, and I fear the addiction is her lawyer friend. That is the struggle that I have in that I often wonder if this is truly MLC or if she has fallen into the temptation of an affair that has blinded her to her family. I have known of women who put their boyfriends before their children, and work with many of those who deal with this daily. I just wonder if somehow this infatuation really IS the issue and if it really has anything to do with childhood issues at all. To forsake me and the children for some supposed "true love" would be unforgivable to me, and would be violating God's covenant of marriage. Do I think this should be grounds for an annulment? Yes, I do. And I am not a hypocrite in that I would say the same for any other, AND I would not have faulted my W if she had gone this route 18 years ago.
Research into what is known as the "affair fog" indicates many of the same characterisitics of MLC - blaming the spouse, rewriting history, unbelievable selfishness, a sudden need for "space" and subsequent secrecy about comings and goings along with excessive cell phone use. My W has shown all of these behaviors to the Nth degree. That is one of the reasons I question what is going on and whether or not to stand.
I know that most on here either have or are dealing with an OP (and not the moderator type), and I can understand if anyone disagrees with my stance on this issue. But, I would like to clarify WHY I hold the position I do. My beliefs that the discovery of a Physical Affair (I wrote it out this time) would be the end for me stem from my own personal demons dealing with abandonment and feeling less than others. I was brought up with the feeling that no matter what I did or do, I would always be the number 2 son. My brother, who I have nothing but love for and is battling lung cancer so I have let go of my anger towards him, was always the favored son and still is. He has never set foot in a college, used to deal drugs, slept with everything that would say "yes" no matter how they looked or what kind of person they were, treated women like objects and may even have children who he doesn't "claim." I won't put myself on a pedestal, but I did none of those things and yet he is the one my mother seems to be most proud of. I managed a chain of tire stores for 7 years, but whenever something went wrong with my mom's car and I had diagnosed it, she would always get my brother's opinion and go with whatever he said. I was ASE certified to repair and align front ends, and she would trust his call over mine. Even today, she tells me to call him and get his advice before I make any kind of decision as if I'm nothing short of stupid. So, I grew up being second best and the second choice and I'll be damned if I will feel like that in my marriage. I DID have jealousy issues stemming from my W having a serious relationship before me and I struggled with them for years. Now that seems like not such a big deal. But, I cannot and will not live feeling like she prefers someone over me or that she is settling for me because an OM dumped her.
To clarify, if I TRULY believe she is in MLC and TRULY believe that she does not see what she is doing, I MAY be able to forgive whatever she does. I love her and would lay down my life for her. I've said that many times, but I've backed it up in real life and have the scars to prove it. If I find out this is all about her falling for some a-hole lawyer or any other guy, I would not take her back if she begged on her hands and knees. Does that make me a sinner? Does that make me less than moral? I CAN'T live feeling like second best, or feeling like she dumped me for someone else and treated my kids like this for someone else. IF this is really just about an affair, then she had best hope she keeps him because this door will be shut. I condemn no one for their views and will listen to no condemnation of mine. I am me. I have found myself, and I must stand for what I believe in. That may be for marriage, or it may be for justice as X mentions. But, whatever it is for I will stand for something and I must be true to myself.
And I am not angry at all. I am resolved.
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Like everyone here I have wondered what it will take to shake up and wake up my H. More and more I do think it will be when I completely move on: when I am out of this house, moved to another state or city, lost all the weight I want to lose and when I've met someone else or at least dating. Only then do I think my H will sit up and take notice. BUT-given how he treats me and how Monsterish he is to me so much of the time, I also think that he will never ever change his mind. He is completely and totally convinced that I am his problem and only problem.
This past Saturday, my S and I walked the beach at sunset that my H, S, myself and our sweet dog that passed away a couple of years ago used to go to regularly. I felt brave as I walked in the breathtaking beauty of the near deserted beach as the blue sky turned shades of pink and orange. But at the same time I felt sad knowing that my S and I have lost two beings we loved with all our hearts-my H and our dog. Both my H and our dog are ghosts to us now, even though my H is still in our lives though but a shadow of his former self. As my S and I walked the beach, I started to feel a small flame of strength and renewal. I have been listening to Louise L. Hay quite a bit lately and I know that only I can make my dreams come true with the help of God/Higher Power. Somewhere deep inside my head and heart I know that I can have a wonderful life without my H in it and I want to hang on to this belief with all my might because I know that it will ultimately save me. I have been alone like this before when my mom died almost 30 years ago. Back then I came to this same belief of having a wonderful life as a way to honor my mother and from it I gained huge amounts of strength. I realize now that somewhere along the line in my M to my H I lost that belief in myself which is why my H's MLC brought me to my knees. It is very healing to find myself starting to believe in myself again now. Deep down I know that I will ok and that my life can be all that I want it to be-no matter what happens with my H. So while I still want my H in my life, I do not want the Monster/stranger he has become. I want the H I fell in love with years ago. But I don't know if he will ever find his way back to the man he was. Slowly but surely, I am finding peace and beginning to accept my new life. As everyone here says, I am truly on a journey.
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Wow Thundarr,
instead of Lawyer read architect and you are my clone. Is that possible?
Very surprised that my wife puts the ahole before my daughters, but I have seen it. It's not natural.
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Very interesting discussion.
Since OW I been having an on and off that become a vanisher. He left almost 5 years ago. Like Moving Forward I'be had a summer fling. It was nice but.
Since MLC is a journey, both for us and our MLCer, does it comes to a point when we have healed and are ready to move on? Even if the MLCer is not? Because I'm getting to that point.
It starts to long make sense to keep waiting. I'm healed, I'm happy, I would like companioship and a relashionship. I do not know when, or if, my husband will come out of his MLC. So, should I keep looking after myself and move on or keep waiting for something that one does know how it will turn out?
Somehow, lately, the possibility of rebuilding my marriage is making less and less sense...
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"Like everyone here I have wondered what it will take to shake up and wake up my H."
I am not one who believes that an MLCer can necessarily "shake up and wake up" from MLC. I think the line below from earlier in this thread from RCR is good insight.
An MLCer still has to go through the tunnel and be at a point where they are ready.
"More and more I do think it will be when I completely move on: when I am out of this house, moved to another state or city, lost all the weight I want to lose and when I've met someone else or at least dating. Only then do I think my H will sit up and take notice."
If you (or any LBS) has moved on, what does it matter if the MLCer takes notice? And how will you know that they took notice because you moved on and not simply because they completed their crisis?
"I also think that he will never ever change his mind."
You can look on many (many) different threads on this forum and see this commonality among the LBS.
From RCR's article Stories and Human Behavior
If you are the typical LBS, after a while you believe your marriage will not survive, often because your MLCer is just one of those stubborn ones who once he makes a decision, he won't change it. Really? Like your MLCer isn't now changing his decision to be married to you?
I think the main reason that LBS think that their MLC is one who won't complete their crisis is because of the reality of MLC Takes Time. On a different website, one of the contributors who went through MLC himself says "MLC is not a short term issue".
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Dontgiveup, I think my H will most likely end up changing his mind and may come out of the MCL. And it may not be because I've move on. But yes, it takes time. Too much time. Without a deadline.
When I look back and see 5 nearly five years behind me and have no ideia how many more there will be... Like I posted below, more and more it makes no sense to me to be wainting for his MLC to be over. I've changed a lot, I have not see him since May 2008. He become a vague memory.
RCL is right when she says that many times the MCLer will be back just to find out the LBS has moved on. But, if we, ourselves, have changed, move forward and starting to think we may no longer want the marriage back, should we still be waiting? For what in that case?...
I now I may be sounding harsh or unkind but, like the MLCer the LBS also changes its mind. And starts to see things in a new light.
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"should we still be waiting? For what in that case?"
These are questions only you can answer......and my post was not meant to answer them for anyone. It was simply a reminder that it's common for the LBS to think that their MLC will be one to not make it through MLC.
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Yes, I know I'm the only one that can answer that question. :)
I know some men that went through MLC and come out of it. In several of the cases the wifes had divorced, remarried, had children with second husband. The wifes remained happy with the second marriage, their MLCer went through a period of a few relashionships, then time on their own, then trying to find someone to spend their life with.
One of them has often told me he had done the worst mistake of his life when he left his first wife and married OW. He stayed married to OW for two years and, for what he told me, it was hell. His first wife moved on and is still married to her second husband.
What I've seen from people I know is that the MLCer always comes back too late, after the LBS has already moved on.
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"What I've seen from people I know is that the MLCer always comes back too late, after the LBS has already moved on."
Yep, that seems to be most common.
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"What I've seen from people I know is that the MLCer always comes back too late, after the LBS has already moved on."
Yep, that seems to be most common.
So DGU do you think that one thing has anything to do with the other?
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Not necessarily as a direct correlation. There are a few LBS who may have already started dating in the first year or two after bomb drop, but we don't see those MLCers rushing back because of that.
My guess is it's a normal thing for an LBS to want a companion/relationship after "x" amount of years.....and at some point, nearly all MLCers make it through their crisis.
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Not sure, OP. I think it’s a conjugation of factors. LBS moving on, bad experiences with OW, especially if they marry her, realising they really love LBS.
Dontgiveup mentions that if LBS starts to date quickly those MLCers will not rush back. Well, the wives of these men I know divorced them pretty quick and remarried. One of the men married OW and had two children with her. His life with her, according his own words has hell. She was nice, wonderful, everything he had dreamed of while the affair lasted. As soon as she was married she changed. Became possessive, mean, and so on. Unlike wife nº 1, divorce with wife nº2 (OW) was nasty. He told me that it did not took him long after marrying OW to realise he had made a mistake, the big mistake of his life, he now says. And now he only has praise word for his first wife. He had gone after her after the second divorce but she had moved on.
Dontgiveup, I agree with you, after a certain number of years, it is normal for a LBS to want companion/relationship. At some point the MLCer will come out of the crisis. But is is too late. Or maybe not. The LBS may find a companion/relationship that will not last and the MLCer may still have a chance.
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Not necessarily as a direct correlation. There are a few LBS who may have already started dating in the first year or two after bomb drop, but we don't see those MLCers rushing back because of that.
A friend over on Lifetwo's W starting wanting to reconnect with him IMMEDIATELY after he had signed the D papers. She initiated sex with him and actually made the statement that she had hurt alot of people for the first time in her crisis. Total time from BD to this was 9 months. OP knows who I'm talking about.
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What a fascinating discussion. Something I think a lot about even though I'm a mere "infant" in this whole journey. BD for me was just 8 months ago. Here are my, rather random, reactions to the issues that have been brought up in this discussion.
My H is an "off and on" contact type. I hear from him once or twice a month. Always cordial, kind.
We don't talk about our R, OW, the future, just keep things friendly. There's no monster at all anymore. If anything, he makes "contrite" statements from time to time.
But he's going deeper into the tunnel with each month, I can definitely feel it. And the contacts are decreasing as he continues on in.
Relationship with OW is getting more intense, I think. At least my intuition tells me she's becoming more demanding. All according to script.
If I could have a guarantee my H was going to want to reconcile at some future time, even if I knew the time period was going to be 5+ years, I would make the decision today to keep standing no matter what. (I suspect many of us would.)
However, it's my impression standing doesn't seem to work out all that well much of the time for the LBS.
I base this impression (and obviously that's all it is) on what I've read on this board and the DB board during the 7 some months I've been coming around.
There's something like 400 people on this site. How many reconciliations have there been? Just a handful. There are another handful, from what I read, that seem to be maybe heading in the reconciliation direction.
The reconciliations on the DB board seem even scarcer. Obviously, I've not done an analysis, this is just what it "feels" like to me. Divorce seems more the norm than reconciliation on both sites.
I understand this site is relatively "young" and that many, if not most, of the posters here are early in their journey. But the DB site's been around at least a decade.
There seem to be more divorces, usually around the 2.5 year mark, than other outcomes.
That's depressing and discouraging. But not enough to make me want to give up. I get sad when I think about the challenges for me in the future but, at the same time, a big part of me does believe in the MLC process and that my H is simply not in his right mind at this time.
When I first found this site I was so psyched because RCR's articles are so sensible. Here was hope in a seemingly hopeless sitch!
Where else do LBSs get encouragement to stand and detailed directions on how it's done? Precious few places. So I started out here with high hopes that standing was the answer and that it would work out for me. Now, I'm not so sure.
Don't get me wrong. I'm still committed to standing. For how long, I don't know. But at least until H divorces me (if it comes to that) and maybe until when/if he marries OW or someone else. And (who know?) maybe even beyond that.
I hope those things won't happen. But I'd be a fool to think that there's not a significant probability they could happen.
As to dating. Well, yeah, I really miss male companionship. Big time.
But I also know I'm in no condition emotionally for any kind of romantic relationship, even a casual friendship with a man, until I've learned much more about who I am, what part I played in the demise of my marriage, the mistakes I made and who and what I want to be when I "grow up"!
I've been married 38 years. If you put any stock in that statement that for every year of marriage it takes one month to recover from abandonment, I need 38 months of healing.
Given that I've already put in 8 months, I've got 2.5 years before I'm going to be "ready" for my next relationship.
So, I tell myself I'm going to look at it like I've gone to a junior college and am working on my associate's degree in "marriage recovery"!
2.5 years is about the minimum time H will continue to be in MLC isn't it? Well, I know it could be a lot longer but the 2+ year timetable is an optimistic number. So, I'll see what's happening then.
In the meantime, I have a lot of therapy, recovery, reading, writing, GALing, traveling, thinking, hoping, praying, enjoying and living to do!
TMHP
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Dear friends,
Here is some clarity from me about post #12.
The OW, my ex-husband’s new partner, was my close friend. I had actually suggested they get together in a joking way, well before our divorce (we remain very close to this day, though spotty for a couple years). She moved in with my ex days after our divorce was final, a few weeks before my new partner moved in with me. My light-bulb moment had nothing to do with her (they’d already been together for nearly a year). It had everything to do with confronting what I had lost, through my own introspection and with some help from a book about affairs (to start). That helped because I could see the universal nature of our experience…That LOTS of people in good marriages “succumb” to outside love.
My husband and I do not see what happened as an MLC. We see what happened as us both having lost connection to each other, and more important to ourselves (and so of course, we lost connection with each other). He could see I was not meeting some of my deepest and most precious needs in our marriage (and at the time, we thought that was about the marriage, and later realized that was not exactly right).
We never use the word “abandon” because it implies blame and judgment, the quickest way to create resentment between us (or anyone for that matter). He supported me leaving the marriage, even though it was very painful, bc he wanted to see me meet those needs and he honestly saw that our marriage was not supporting those. He didn’t want to stay married to me if we couldn’t support each other meeting those deepest needs. He, too, realized he hadn’t met many of his own deep needs for years in our marriage (and at the time, we believed it was about the marriage, but later learned it wasn’t).
We loved each other enough to give each other freedom. But of course, we had the miracle of realizing that we *could* meet those needs within our marriage, and to experience our own freedoms from with our partnership. We also never considered me as having ‘abandoned’ him or the children, as—at the time—we thought that our very close proximity and friendship would simply make our family bigger. We truly believed that to be the case, and I still believe we would have come close. And I thank all the stars in the sky, that we get to make our family *together*, this way, bc I know it is so much better for us all. But no one in our situation saw anyone ‘abandoning’ anyone else..
I didn’t have an EA. I had strong feelings for a man outside our marriage, and I was totally honest with both him and my husband. True, I felt love and lust and all that, as in an emotional affair. But we were all totally honest at all times. No sex until post-divorce. In our view, having an affair is about secrecy. Also, the affair literature is basically brutal when it comes to humans having feelings outside their primary attachment bond…which, in reality, is totally normal. To fight that, is pain.
We have come to a very deep awareness that this extremely universal experience happens to the best of us.. Humans are primed to fall in love with other humans (see my post Sex at Dawn Juan (http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/marry-divorce-reconcile/201107/sex-dawn-juan)). We are not meant to be monogamous, and monogamy is damn hard work. Since we’ve learned more about this, it has brought us the deepest healing yet (the affair literature simply brought me anger, hatred, and blame). Also, we have a culture that isolates us from one another and community, and in many ways, is inhumane. My latest blog post, VOL-DIVORCE (http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/marry-divorce-reconcile/201109/vol-divorce-which-shall-not-be-named)touches on this. This, too, has been an incredible wake-up call as to why so many of us are fleeing our marriages.
I hope this helps clarify some of our perspective. I’m working on our memoir so there will be a lot more depth once that’s done.
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I just wonder if counselling everyone that if they just wait long enough their partners might come back actually interrupts the healing process (or gets it stuck after a number of months) for people whose spouses simply won't return or even experience true regret unless reality forces them to acknowledge that they have really lost the LBS for good.
You titled this thread Standing vs. Moving On which is actually a misuse and misunderstanding of both concepts. I know what you mean and you really seem to be talking—at least initially—about dating.
I’ve said this so many times and people just don’t seem to pay attention.
Standing isn’t still. Moving on is something everyone should be doing as a part of Standing and if they are not Standing. Moving on, moving forward, GAL, whatever you call it, it’s creating a fulfilled life for your Self. Standing should never be about waiting. Just because a person is choosing not to date does not mean they are waiting. What about all the widows and widowers out there who choose not to marry again—are they waitting to die?
Move forward, move on, get a life…basically keep living or start living; there is no pause button.
In which case counselling people to wait until they are emotionally healthy to start a new relationship would seem wise, giving them advice on working on co-dependancy issues remains wise, and information on healthy habits to take into a new relationship as well as signs of being ready to be able to handle a new relationship might be helpful.
That is a main purpose of Standing. For me and for many the true purpose is to save the marriage and saving the Self becomes byproduct. But Standing is a Grace period in which a person puts there decision to end the marriage on hold—often just because emotional turmoil is not a healthy time to make life-changing decisions. Some Standers are Covenant Keepers and thus they will Stand for a lifetime. But I call it Standing instead because that is not so stringent and it religion is not a requirement.
I have to admit that I do not know that I would have Stood forever; at Bomb Drop I was 32 and childless. Many of you older than I was—and are still older than I am. You are beyond your childbearing years and you invested those child-raising years with your spouse. Me, I investd my Self and my future with Sweetheart, but for us it was a future we had not yet realized—we’re still trying to realize the children part. It’s not a requirement or anything, but I think the longer a couple has been married, the older the LBS is and perhaps the ages of the children—who may be adults will increase the likelihood that a person will Stand. Now I have nothing to base that on other than thoughts, but I still had not created the parenting part of my life. I was usually the youngest Stander in the group and 6.5 years later that is still true—though now there are a few more my age.
My hypothesis (that some MLCers don't see the light until the LBS is in a new relationship) suggests that for some standing was never going to work and so the LBS may as well move on.
]It's my impression standing doesn't seem to work out all that well much of the time for the LBS.
This is one of those common misconceptions. Standing isn’t supposed to work—well, other than that it is supposed to work on you. I know, I said my purpose was to save my marriage, but don’t confuse my personal purpose as a Stander with general purpose of Standing. Most Standers start out with the primary purpose being the personal purpose of saving their marriages and they progress to where their primary purpose is saving their Self and saving the marriage , though still important, becomes seconday—or even tertiary.
And maybe ways to keep working on themselves even once in a new relationship would seem to be just as necessary as giving people advice on how to salvage a marriage or reconciliation if a MLCer comes back... I know that that is not the purpose of this forum, this forum wants to see marriages saved (as do I!) but I wonder if RCR needs a sister site for people who feel that standing has ended, that they wish to continue to work on themselves, they want to maintain a reasonable relationship with the old spouse especially if children are involved and still require dealing with MLCer help for that, but are venturing back into the world of relationships.
Other than the last clause, that is par tof what this site is for and about. What it is not is a site about dating or starting a relationship—other than with your original spouse. But all that other stuff is part of this. Yes, the primary purpose and focus is Standing, but I know the odds.
As I say in the Mission Statement, not everyone here will choose to Stand…and yet all are welcome.
Everyone is looking for a magic potion and when some of you find me, you think you’ve found it. Don’t I wish. My goal is that by educating and offering a safe place for support I can prevent divorces—thereby reducing the divorce rate. But will the rate of regulars at this site be more marriages reconciled than ended? Maybe someday when my message has wider spread and people are more open to it—I do think it is possible. But for now it’s still small.
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Thundarr
I appreciate your exception. That exception would be extremely rare. I don't know the story obviously, but based on her behavior and time frame you indicate, color me skeptical she was experiencing MLC.
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DGU,
She did seem to meet all the criteria, and her H says she was going through something well before BD and he didn't recognize it till much later, as did we all. She did have a PA and his finding out and confronting her about that post signing appeared to be a catalyst for her beginning to wake up. They are still not reconciled, and he does not think she is out of it yet. My point was just that the thought of losing the spouse for good was enough to at least bring her to a point of clarity.
I want to go on record to say that I strongly disagree with the letter from the lady from the other site. We are not made to be monogamous? Excuses, excuses. There is temptation in the world, but people can be extremely happy by not giving in to it. So, she and her H decided they would be happier getting D'ed so they could sleep with other people? Good for them. It makes me wonder if they both may be still in some sort of MLC, or if they just weren't the type to get married in the first place. I would be interested to see the circumstances behind their marriage. I won't judge them, but still I think she should speak only for herself and not generalize her beliefs to the overall population. Just my .02.
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I disagreed with several points in that letter. The line about men and women not being made to remain monogamous made me want to scream. And how about her countless attempts to say that they never used the word "abandoned?" Hmm... maybe that made her feel better, but I doubt her children would agree. She broke up a marriage and a family. She left her husband. That sure seems like abandonment to me whether she wants to call it that or not. She needs to take responsibility for her leaving and not using a certain word just because she would feel judged if others used it is pretty immature.
I wonder if she has ever heard of the word covenant. Lifelong vows. For better or for worse until death parts us. She does not have a God given right to pursue her own happiness while destroying her family and the lives of her innocent children. Maybe she needs to learn the art of self control. She made a commitment. That letter was just another example of what is soooooo wrong with society today and why so many marriages end in divorce - whether MLC is a cause or not. I am thankful for her children's sake that her family was put back together again.
Hopefully, she has matured the second time around. No marriage partner can satisfy all of your needs anymore than you can satisfy theirs'. And what - once you discover that - do you do??? Leave and join up with someone else who also cannot satisfy you. Maybe if people stopped being so selfish we would have more precious children growing up in stable homes where both parents put the needs of the children, the family, and the marriage ahead of their own individual desires. It is called loving one another. God's two greatest commands are for us to love Him and to love one another. He did not say anything about being in love with ourselves.
So, thanks, Thundarr for stating your opinion to this letter. It made me feel freer to express mine.
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I disagreed with several points in that letter. The line about men and women not being made to remain monogamous made me want to scream. And how about her countless attempts to say that they never used the word "abandoned?" Hmm... maybe that made her feel better, but I doubt her children would agree. She broke up a marriage and a family. She left her husband. That sure seems like abandonment to me whether she wants to call it that or not. She needs to take responsibility for her leaving and not using a certain word just because she would feel judged if others used it is pretty immature.
I wonder if she has ever heard of the word covenant. Lifelong vows. For better or for worse until death parts us. She does not have a God given right to pursue her own happiness while destroying her family and the lives of her innocent children. Maybe she needs to learn the art of self control. She made a commitment. That letter was just another example of what is soooooo wrong with society today and why so many marriages end in divorce - whether MLC is a cause or not. I am thankful for her children's sake that her family was put back together again.
Hopefully, she has matured the second time around. No marriage partner can satisfy all of your needs anymore than you can satisfy theirs'. And what - once you discover that - do you do??? Leave and join up with someone else who also cannot satisfy you. Maybe if people stopped being so selfish we would have more precious children growing up in stable homes where both parents put the needs of the children, the family, and the marriage ahead of their own individual desires. It is called loving one another. God's two greatest commands are for us to love Him and to love one another. He did not say anything about being in love with ourselves.
So, thanks, Thundarr for stating your opinion to this letter. It made me feel freer to express mine.
You're very welcome, CFL, and I will say you stated the points much better than I did. That's why I wanted to carry over your whole post. Good job!!
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No marriage partner can satisfy all of your needs anymore than you can satisfy theirs'. And what - once you discover that - do you do??? Leave and join up with someone else who also cannot satisfy you. Maybe if people stopped being so selfish we would have more precious children growing up in stable homes where both parents put the needs of the children, the family, and the marriage ahead of their own individual desires. It is called loving one another.
The part in bold really resonated with ME.
Having read all the marriage builder books about "HIS NEEDS" "HER NEEDS"
and what you should do to fill those "NEEDS" I guess you can lose track of what is really important.
SELFISH - well that is a MLC trait in a nut shell, so when it is all about NEEDS and
all you hear is about them being SELFISH, you know it is MLC.
I agree with Thundarr CFL - great post.
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I thought that letter was totally bizarre. I didn't get it at all.
The lack of empathy for what the effects of what sounded like that ghastly 60s "fad" of wife-swapping were doing to the unfortunate children of these families was chilling. Sorry, but what she was advocating was child abuse.
My considered opinion.
TMHP
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Trusting - wife swapping, yes. My thought this morning was that it seemed much like the modern-day swinger lifestyle. Totally gross and disrespectful to each other if you ask me. Selfishness to the core.
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I agree Thundarr, I could not finish reading it, she lost me early on in the ode to self. Thaundarr we have talked many times about how long we stay for this ride, I know my wife is MLC, we have seen the dead eyes, the irrational behavior, all the signs are there. How long do you stand for your marriage, I think is an individual decision, something we each need to decide based on our own strengths. I will not do anything till my wife makes it plain her intentions, if she divorces me and marries the OM then so be it I will move on, I cannot date, or really do anything till she releases me from our vows, nor would I want to. it is all up to her where we go from here. She is a vanisher, I have not seen her in 5 months, the OM is a minipulator who specifically targetted a married woman, he obviously has issues. I pray for both of them to see where they are at, I hope they both come to their senses, though I do not hold out much hope right now. Is my wife having a PA most likely, I cant prove it, they are very secretive so I wait, I pray, I live. I miss talking to a woman more than anything in this world, I talk to my sisters, and stepmom, but that is not the same as having a woman across from you looking at you as you talk, and being able to listen to them and just connect. I miss that more than anything while my wife is off having her fantasy. It is what it is, I will wait till it is time not to wait, I feel that I will know when that is, I trust that god will help me to know when that time comes, No matter when the axe falls, I plan to be alone a year minimum, because I know I am n good to anyone in my present state. That I think is the point of the stand, it is the time we need to be where we can make a decision trhat works for us because we know it is the right thing to do. That we have become ourselves again and not "we", or "us" that we were before, not the couple, not the melding of two people, we become the indiviuals we are at our core. for better or for worse, and it gives us the time to heal the "worse" we find in ourselves.
Tigger
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Tigger, as always your points are excellent. We have to decide when it is right for us and there are many variables involved in this decision. RCR made several great points in relation to a post I made on my thread this morning, and I have to give them much thought. She is right that I am in no position to make a decision of any type right now, and honestly I've thought many times that the right thing to do would be to wait until this has passed and decide about the sane woman who will hopefully show up at the end rather than the bizarre, insance, child-like demon Monster that looks like my W right now. I know I would not want to be married to who she is right now, and if she were to stay this way I wouldn't take her back for a million bucks. Well, maybe if we were on a deserted island with no cell phone service and no internet. Maybe then.
I just wish there were a way to get past the hurting of all this. The Loneliness Bug is really bothering me right now and I really dread the upcoming holidays. While she is out gallavanting around, I will likely be Christmas shopping by myself and worrying about how to afford to give my kids a good Christmas. I keep hoping and praying every day for not only a good end but also a quick end to this as it can't be healthy for me or the kids. There really is no good answer to this. Now that it's a weekday again, I have to go back to worrying about getting the SA in the mail once more. Normally I wouldn't worry so much, but I hate to have anything with my kids in the eyes of the courts. I'm OK with how things are now, even if she isn't too involved in their lives. I would like the security of knowing she can't take them, but I just hate the finality and officialness of it all.
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First of all.... I'm SO GLAD that I'm not the only one who finds this woman Rachel's letter to be utterly ridiculous justification to try and make what she and her husband did to their marriage OK!! I read her blog, or perhaps it was part of a Psychology Today article posted on here some time ago... I found it disturbing the first time around, and now THIS.... the follow up to her original thoughts!! It's all a bunch of "I'm ok, you're ok and whatever we do is ok because we're learning crap.." well, that's partially true... we are all human and make mistakes in life so we can learn and grow... our whole lives are a journey, and she and her husband may feel this way authentically, but I don't relate to her attitude at all....
That being said, there seems to be quite a lot of talk about whether to "stand" for your marriages going on around here.... FIRST OF ALL.... YES, I'm YELLING like I love to do.... along with the dot dot dot thingy.... try making a life for yourself for two years and THEN see where you're at? I know you've all read the standing articles.... what part of "Replay lasts a minimum of 24 months" are you forgetting? The first YEAR of this is YOU trying to find your footing after the devastation of BD, then..... who knows. Depends on your contact type.
Recovery from divorce takes a minimum of two years, so really, you shouldn't even be thinking about a new relationship.... then what are you gonna do? Sign up for Match.com (I already did, by the way.... just being honest.... prospects aren't very good IRL around here) go on one date, find your new true love who has NO baggage, no debt, no MLC or transition comin' down the pike, no ex wife, no kids, no alimony or child support, go on a few fabulous dream vacations and then get engaged for six months, then plan your destination wedding where your ex, your kids and your parents will all be so happy for you? Then, at Christmas, your kids can divide their time between your ex's house and your new home? And all this happens so fast that, lets see..... oh, on the fast track, only four years have passed.... FOUR YEARS!!!
I think you are worrying about "what if I'm wasting my life waiting for my spouse to wake up and come home" and RCR reminded you that standing ISN'T STILL!! Stop wasting your life!! As OP says, you got the gift of time... I for one, enjoy my freedom from husband...unfortunately, it comes at a price, and the price is HE IS WITH OW when he's not working or here. Now, that's a very high price to pay for freedom, but since it isn't my CHOICE, I'm sure as hell gonna enjoy the heck out of it while I can before his depressed self dumps her and comes home to finish out his MLC.... I have hobbies I put aside.... trips I didn't take...ducks to get in a row... a whole life to finally get spring cleaned and organized...without him looking over my shoulder or micromanaging!!
The down sides are obvious.... he's still having bad sex with OW, while I've got BOB. 8) I used to love BOB, but now.... I'd like something more meaningful, LOL!! Oh well, play the hand you're dealt and quit trying to see tomorrow..... focus on the PRESENT. Note to self here....
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LG Too funny. I spent 5 hours in the car with the Ds coming back yesterday. What you are saying to us above here is : Don't get in the car on the Garden state Pkwy north on Labor Day headed towards NYC and then after 2 miles ask "Are we there yet?" :o :o :o :o and then Ds cried What? 5 hours? You should have told us. :o :o :o I for one know it'll take a couple of Christmas trees with H at Bowser's. So what? For the last 3 or 4 years of his withdrawal and depression I did it all anyway. then had to listen to "You missed a spot." :o :o "Tree crooked" :o :o :o
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LG , I'm sending you the parking ticket $$ That was so stupid. Like what? 2 minutes late? And you were happy about $1 hotdogs :o :o Galing is expensive. So many consequences for us from our crazy antics on the boardwalk. Jersey Shore. Snookie. Sorry Hi Jack.
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LG,
Who or what is BOB? Maybe it's a woman thing I'm just not aware of.
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Battery Operated Boyfriend.... you know you're laughing.... you know you are!! ;D ;D ;D
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Battery Operated Boyfriend.... you know you're laughing.... you know you are!! ;D ;D ;D
Well if he is not then I am ;D ;D ;D
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LOLOL!!! I needed that today!
Maybe you could paint a face on him and start working projecting a personality on him. LOL again!
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Lol - wicked! I love it! Puts a different perspective on 'pull my nightie down when you've finished' I work with a guy named Bob - puts him in a different light
SK x
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! Puts a different perspective on 'pull my nightie down when you've finished'
SK x
:-[
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LG, that's the best laugh I've had in an age! You and Mamma Bear keep me smilin'.
I wanted to tell you, also, how much I appreciated your last post on this thread. You said, much more succinctly, what I was trying to say in my earlier post about the gift of, and need for, time to heal.
As we all accept the MLCer needs time to process and go through their journey, we, too, must accept that we need time, perhaps just as much as the MLCer until we'll be emotionally and spiritually ready to go forward with our intimate relationship lives.
I get tempted, and even some people close to me urge me (most interestingly my own D,) to begin to "reach out." I've gone to SeniorPeopleMeet and looked around.
But the answer is not there or in any romantic relationship--at this time. That would be no better than what my H has done which is to use the power and intensity of a romantic relationship to mask his depression/pain.
The only way out is through. (D*** it!)
TMHP
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T I was messing - it's an expression an x friend of mine used in ref to her h - they are now divorced!
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This is a very thought provoking topic. I for one thought at one time moving on meant finding someone else. I've since learnt that is isn't the answer. As OP pointed out in an earlier post, it's not fair on the other person. We need time to grieve, heal, work on ourselves etc. I know we are all different - I have friends say that the only way to get over him is to find someone else! For me it's not the answer. I have learnt that we are responsible for our own happiness.
My parents were almost married 50 yrs when my Dad died, 6 yrs on and she's not at all interested in another relationship. Whereas a work colleage lost his wife just over a year ago - shortly after she died he joined a dating agency, found someone else and has been with her ever since. Must admit I find it hard to get my head round that but like I say everyone is different.
SK xx
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SK, A friend told me a saying a while back that summed up a phenomena I've seen a number of times in my life:
"Women mourn, men replace."
TMHP
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Lest I've offended any of the wonderful men on this site by my last post, I want to state that the saying is of course, a general one. We all know exceptions to it, I'm sure.
My father was widowed at age 74. He lived to be 87 and never looked at another woman. He was definately a one woman guy. I also have a good friend who was widowed at age 47. He waited 5 years before remarrying.
TMHP
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I want to go on record to say that I strongly disagree with the letter from the lady from the other site. We are not made to be monogamous? Excuses, excuses.
I disagreed with several points in that letter. The line about men and women not being made to remain monogamous made me want to scream.
Rachel is correct, as a species wer are not designed for monogamy. It is pretty obvious we are not monogamous. We—many of us—want to be and we try to be—but if we were monogamous this forum would not exist. Monogamy is about biology. It does not mean we can choose to be monogamous. She said it is work—and you who dealing with your spouse’s infidelities doubt that?
That is not an excuse; it’s truth.
And for the record, I have never felt Rachel was MLC. Their split was mutual as well as amicable.
There is temptation in the world, but people can be extremely happy by not giving in to it. So, she and her H decided they would be happier getting D'ed so they could sleep with other people? Good for them. It makes me wonder if they both may be still in some sort of MLC.
She was not MLC then and it seems that you either do not know her story or you are reading into the words of someone whose beliefs are different than your own and using those differences to diagnose MLC. She and her husband remarried each other and we both support the Coalition for Divorce Reform and its Parental Divorce Reduction Act.
I won't judge them, but still I think she should speak only for herself and not generalize her beliefs to the overall population.
But it sounds like that’s what you are doing.
And how about her countless attempts to say that they never used the word abandoned? Hmm... maybe that made her feel better, but I doubt her children would agree.
It was not about her children. She and her husband mutually agreed to end their marriage. Now it is about the children—and each other—because they have since learned about the detrimental effects of divorce on children.
Here is what I told her a few minutes ago in an email.
These feelings of being abandoned bring up a lot of defensiveness in the Left Behind Spouses (LBSs). Their spouses are cheating and often flaunting it and they are blaming them for everything. And the LBSs feel they did nothing wrong. Maybe they didn't, but it doesn't mean they were perfect and did eright either--their wrongs were not marriage breakers.
I think maybe they took offense because you said it implies blame. I agree with you that it does. It's one reason I don't like to say abandoned spouses and call them left behind spouses instead. And yet I also admit that I would have blamed Sweetheart for a divorce. But I don't mean that in a grudge holding way either, I mean that it was his divorce and I feel the person actively trying to end the marriage should own their responsibility for it. That doesn't mean I was blameless in breaking pieces of it, but I would not take blame for ending it. If something is broke, fix it.
You guys in this forum are examples of unilateral divorce. 80% of divorces are unilateral. Rachel’s divorce was not unilateral. As for how her children felt about it…here is part of her letter; the emphasis is mine.
We also never considered me as having ‘abandoned’ him or the children, as—at the time—we thought that our very close proximity and friendship would simply make our family bigger. We truly believed that to be the case, and I still believe we would have come close.
She broke up a marriage and a family. She left her husband. That sure seems like abandonment to me whether she wants to call it that or not.
No, she and her husband agreed to break up their marriage; they left each other. Abandonment is unilateral. They abandoned their vows by mutual agreement.
She needs to take responsibility for her leaving and not using a certain word just because she would feel judged if others used it is pretty immature.
She and her husband have reconciled and she is working to educate people about the damages of divorce. Sounds like she’s taking responsibility and beyond to me.
I wonder if she has ever heard of the word covenant. Lifelong vows. For better or for worse until death parts us. She does not have a God given right to pursue her own happiness while destroying her family and the lives of her innocent children.
Maybe she doesn’t have a God given right to anything—you are placing your belief systems over someone else. I don’t know her religious or spiritual beliefs, but I will defend her right to them. Not everyone believes marriage is a covenant and not all couples make their marriage a covenant. Not everyone is Christian and there is nothing wrong with that.
I may wish they did—not saying I wish that or that I don’t. But what I wish is irrelevant.
Maybe she needs to learn the art of self control. She made a commitment.
And she renewed that commitment.
I thought that letter was totally bizarre. I didn't get it at all.
The lack of empathy for what the effects of what sounded like that ghastly 60s fad of wife-swapping were doing to the unfortunate children of these families was chilling. Sorry, but what she was advocating was child abuse.
Wife swapping, yes. My thought this morning was that it seemed much like the modern-day swinger lifestyle. Totally gross and disrespectful to each other if you ask me. Selfishness to the core.
The only references I see to swinger and wife-swapping are from your responses to her letter. Rachel said she made a joke and you ran with it. It’s okay if you don’t find it funny and ironic that the woman who Rachel referred to as the OW was that same friend. She had an OM too. Some of you have done the same thing. Some of you admit you will date when your divorces are final. And yet you are condeming another person for doing something you admit you will do if the situation gets to that point?
You are commenting as though she was doing these things and encouraging these things while married.
First of all.... I'm SO GLAD that I'm not the only one who finds this woman Rachel's letter to be utterly ridiculous justification to try and make what she and her husband did to their marriage OK!!
Rachel does not think it was okay. She is likely more liberal than most of us here regarding marriage and vows, but she no longer thinks divorce should be so easy.
So how many of you are familiar with Rachel’s story—she tells it in her first blog post at her blog on Psychology today?
From the letter I posted here you can surmise she divorced and remarried her husband and that both of them had relationships with other people. He was in a relationship with a friend of Rachel’s and she states it was a year old when the divorce was final. So her husband had a relationship while they were legally married. Her relationship did not become physical until after her divorce was final. And yet I saw a lot of you bashing Rachel and saying nothing about her spouse. Some people separate and divorce is just a legal completion. Not us here, we don’t want to be divorced and thus we are choosing to recongize ourselves as married even when our spouses do not share that view.
Rachel doesn’t share all of your views either. You want to reconcile with your spouses—people who do not share your views, people who are not sharing your religious belies, who are feeling doubt and who are turning away.
When your spouses turn again it may not be toward their former beliefs. They may find new spiritually healthy beliefs—they may be Christian but different than what they were before, or they may choose something else.
See how easy it is to throw stones?
You throw stones at the alienators whose sins are no worse than those of your own spouses and yet you want to forgive and reconcile with one and stone (metaphorically in most cases) the other.
Wow, where’s the Grace in that?
MLCers who return are broken; they don’t usually come back whole and healed. You will get back uncertain men and women who feel shame and guilt and who may have also made some new and exciting changes and discoveries on the journey. You might not like those changes—and I’m not talking about the negative Replay behavior. They may have some new ideas that frighten you and some of you will turn away from reconiliation at that point. But some of you will still want to reconcile.
Standers are Standing for sinners, men and women who no longer meet their standards of appropriate behaviors, and who may no longer hold congruent or complementary beliefs…and yet you still are Standing.
So how fair is your condemnation of Rachel?
Please invite folks to not mistake our clarity, peace, healing and understanding of our experience with being defensive or justifying what they see as their stories. We have a healed and more truthful awareness of what happened to us than those stories allow for. If our truth and peace makes them so uncomfortable, I hope they’ll look at that and ask why.
I will admit I am a bit nervous posting that because of which portions of her statement you will pummel with stones. Her ending is a reconciled marriage—the same thing you want. Her life and beliefs and means of peace may not be the life you seek for yourselves, but that does not mean it is inappropriate, entitled, defensive, justifying or selfish.
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I did read her original Psychology Today article. Maybe it is her tone that grates on me.... maybe it is her style. You are right, I am judging. Instead of judging, I'd like to say that I truly believe it is her and her husband's right to live their lives how they see fit, however, the article still comes across to me as baloney.... Again, maybe it's just her style of relating her story that I don't like. I also guess that even with my sense of humor, I'm shocked her husband was having a relationship with her friend and she seemed fine with it. I really can't relate to that one....
We all know that humans aren't biologically designed for monogamy. But the affairs our spouses are having are all about RUNNING and REPLACING and EMOTIONAL BONDING, and purely selfish behavior. Fine for consenting adults, but there are kids involved... and for a lot of us, we are seeing a recreation of the SAME abandonment that we felt as children of divorce... yet our spouses are doing these same things that hurt them so badly! It is hard to see it in my own kids' eyes....
I'm glad Rachel and her husband have changed their opinion on the effects of divorce... I did get that from her first article, but they don't owe me agreement with my opinions or values, and I don't owe them agreement with theirs. I don't know her personally, and I'm sure she's a wonderful person based on your friendship alone, but I still don't like the article.
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I, for one, was familiar with her original story and had read it just a few weeks ago. To me, the letter she wrote was of a different tone altogether and completely altered my views of her account. THAT was what I was responding to, and also why I did not comment before the letter was posted.
I will await her more detailed blog and will be happy to read it before commenting further on this.
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I did read her original Psychology Today article.
But it's not an article. She has a blog with several posts--what you may call articles. So I can't tell if you are referring to her initial blog posting or a different blog posting.
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I was referring to the blog posting that was linked in post 12. I had read that a few weeks ago and was very inspired and encouraged by it, but when I read the letter I had a very different take.
I think the sticking point for me and for others on here is the kid issue. They had kids, so the fact that they were attracted to others outside the marriage and pursued them meant that they disrupted the lives of the kids and that was what was selfish to me and probably others. Had they not had kids, and just decided to go their separate ways mutually the more power to them as I would not seek to impose my values on them. But, the kids had no say and were innocent. I feel that when people enter into a relationship and choose to have kids then they take on the responsibility of providing a stable home and family for the kids. It becomes no longer about the husband, wife or both. It becomes about the family. I take issue with how readily she puts emphasis on the marriage itself and not feeling fulfilled or what-have-you, and chooses to chase her happiness at the expense of the kids. Take it for what you will, that's my take on the letter. Nothing against her or her H (who did not write the blog or the article, and is really a third person in both), but I just don't agree with their ORIGINAL decision. I think it's great that they reconciled and the blog post points out that both DO appreciate the value of the family at the end. The letter was the issue, not the woman or the overall story.
I really think you may have dissected and judged my response out of context. I did not say we ARE made to be monogamous, just that I thought that was a lame excuse for getting a D. I also did not condemn HER, but stated my disagreement with her other views stated in the letter. I apologize to her if she took anything I wrote personally as I did not mean it that way, and as I said I would be happy to read her other blogs as well.
Again, I speak only for myself but I feel that others would likely agree.
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There's something like 400 people on this site. How many reconciliations have there been? Just a handful. There are another handful, from what I read, that seem to be maybe heading in the reconciliation direction.
The reconciliations on the DB board seem even scarcer. Obviously, I've not done an analysis, this is just what it "feels" like to me. Divorce seems more the norm than reconciliation on both sites."
I’ve been thinking the same. There are many LBS here – actually every week we become more and more -, and very few reconciliations. Shouldn’t the reconciliations be balanced with the growing number of LBS that keep arriving here?
We have what? 1 reconciliation for every 25 LBSes? 1 for every 15? Still, the numbers are low.
I know everyone has a different time frame. Some of us have had BD 5, 8, 10 months ago, other 3,4, 5 or more years ago. But, still, shouldn’t the proportion between LBS and reconciliated spouses be higher?
Maybe RCR or one of the older members of the forum can share their view on this subject.
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Those who add each week may be fresh off bomb drop, or just a few months past bomb drop. If I had to guess, I'd say most who post here and in the first 1-3 years of the crisis. A very small number on here are even at 4 years.
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I agree with you, Dontgiveup, the ones who post may be just a just out of BD or months from it. For what I've read here most people do seem to be 1-3 years into the crisis. I'm a month and a week short of 5 years. I just had to look twice to my previous sentence...nearly 5 years?... :o BD and first months now looks like something out of a freak comedy show! ;D
Still, why so manyLBS (new or enduring ones) and so few reconciliations?...
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I don't know that this site is an accurate sample for a number of reasons.
First and foremost, working through and recovering from MLC is a process that can take several years. This site is only a couple of years old and many of the people who are posting here have only recently had the bomb dropped on them.
Also, not everyone who reads this site posts on it; they could be working through their issues with the help of a therapist, minister, or other support network. There is no way to know how many people are receiving help simply by reading the discussion.
Finally, there could be people who posted here in the past but, as their situations evolved and reconciliation became likely, stopped in order to focus on their marriages.
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I think this sentence from the article Stories and Human Behavior might directly answer your question.....why so few reconciliations?
"More common is for a person to regret their actions--often when they are too late because the spouse has closed the opportunity for marital reconciliation".
So, I guess the answer would be that because by the time the MLC process completes itself (and the MLCer is ready to return) the LBS has moved on. I would say this would be more common that not.
I think one of the reasons RCR does this is to help teach people "how" to Stand.
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Thanks for the reply StillStanding. I know that not everybody that reads posts. I read the site for like an year or more and only started posted recently.
Yes, it makes sense, it may get to a point where the situation evolved and people are working on their marriages intead of posting.
But I must tell that when I read the hardships that go along reconciliation I'm really not sure I'm up to it. I've come so far and changed so much, move so much further that I have no desire of been sucked back into the depression, uncertainty, touch’n’go, and everything else that comes with it. It is almost like this 5 years have been the easy part and, in case of a reconciliation, then will come the really, really hard part.
Dontgiveup, "More common is for a person to regret their actions--often when they are too late because the spouse has closed the opportunity for marital reconciliation". I think it is not so much a question of the spouse having closed the opportunity but had moved on. To me they are not the same thing.
Right now what I feel is like I’ve overgrown the person I was, my marriage, my husband. This I would not even like the wonderful life we’ve had because many things that were part of it become outdate. So have become some of my tastes and behaviours.
The woman I’m now can not be the wife of the husband I had. She also can not be the wife of the present MLCer husband. And I have no idea if she could be the wife of the man that will come out of the MLC. Or if he could be my husband. So much changed.
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AnneJ
Yes, one is a result of the other. The opportunity is closed because the LBS has moved on.....possibly having remarried by the time the MLCer is through the process and desiring a return.
And of course you don't know if it would work. You've both changed, which is in part why reconciliation is hard work. However, even though you've both changed, typically the core values return similiarly to what they were before.
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I've been wondering about many of these same questions a lot lately. Sure, there are plenty of anecdotal posts on the "Returns" thread, but not a lot from members. It makes me question how effective these strategies are. I understand the theoretical framework for many of the strategies, but ultimately, I wonder if an MLCers return is based soley on the each individual mlcer. I think of how Stayed seemed to have dealt with her MLCer very differently from RCR and HB.
A lot of places in the forum the following notion gets referred to a lot:
Most MLCers do make it through their crisis. Most LBS's ultimately have the final says as to whether or not they want to reconcile.
Where does that info come from? sometimes I worry that we are all just blindly quoting one another ;)
Not to be a party pooper but am in a low cycle and questioning everything..
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Zinger
I posted this earlier in this thread. Though it doesn't directly say the MLCer will make it through their crisis, regretting their actions implies that. Jim Conway's materials also reference that in his experience, the majority of MLCers complete the process.
From the article Stories and Human Behavior
More common is for a person to regret their actions--often when they are too late because the spouse has closed the opportunity for marital reconciliation.
Here is a reference to the LBS ultimately having the final say.
From RCR's blog Infidelity Statistics:
In Private Lies Frank Pittman said that “the more in-love romantics end up back in the marriage than married to the affair partner a few years later. …Most of the deserted husbands and wives do get to choose whether or not to return to the old marriage.”
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Dontgiveup
So, the journey does not have the same time frame for both, LBS and MLCer. I think it is on RCR articles, that the MLCer crisis has begun quite before BD.
What I sense is the LBS will be in shock, hurt, angry, furious, grieving but, at a certain point, will start to heal, to change. And a day will come when the LBS has moved ahead of the MLCer, that is still on the crisis.
Therefore, the timings do not coincide. I wonder if the crisis, the journey for both spouses, all the work that we have to do on ourselves (and when out of the crisis the MLCer) is more for making each of the partner grow, evolve and, hopefully, a much better person, than for the marriage in itself… I know this idea will not suit well with many of you.
Zinger
Yes, the LBS has the last saying when it comes up to a reconciliation. Imagine my husband would be knocking on my door tomorrow, sincerely wanting to reconcile. It would be up to me to decide if it was worthy or if I wanted it or not. It gets to a stage in which, even if invisible, the dynamics change and, so to speak, the LBS starts to have, and finally has, the upper hand.
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Thanks for the replies. I do remember reading pitman and conways books. Thanks for the reminders! Guess I'm suffering from Swiss cheese brain too!!
Stand on everyone!!
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Thanks for the replies. I do remember reading pitman and conways books. Thanks for the reminders! Guess I'm suffering from Swiss cheese brain too!!
Stand on everyone!!
We're all suffering from swiss cheese brain! ;D
Hugs
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Yes, the MLC process begins before bomb drop. RCR writes that Bomb Drop is usually either during Replay, or initiates Replay.
Jim Conway writes that the crisis builds slowly below the surface, beneath detection. In simplification, Conway writes that the first part of the crisis is a gradual build up of doubt and anxiety. He refers to Replay as the middle part. Then, he writes, there is a gradual coming down from this doubt and anxiety, back toward their core values....only more refined.
In my case, in the months after Bomb Drop, I was able to reflect back to the behavior changes in my wife. They were subtle and not that much out of the ordinary. One of the things for example was an increase in her desire to exercise. She started wanting to run in 5K races. We also bought her some home exercise equipment, which never really got used, or she would give up on it after a few weeks.
And you are also correct about the marriage thing. I hope I am not misstating this, but I think RCR refers to marriage as not being 50/50, but 100/100 (again, I hope I am not misstating that).
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My W all of a sudden became obsessed with this Eating Out Surviival Guide and would bring it everywhere. She would get very upset when she didn't have it with her, and once went out in the pouring rain to get it out of the van. She lost alot of weight and grew her hair back out. I was very stoked as her sex drive went through the roof, but in hindsight I wish none of it ever happened. It was a great first 4 months of the year, but it nose-dived like nobody's business.
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Looking back I can also trace signs of changes and reflect about certain behaviours. Some were small odd things, like wainting to move to the USA (we live in Europe) for an year to work in some guy's shop in Cleveland or Pittsburg (can´t remember what city it was). Other were more, now, obvious stuff, like buying too many clothes, sleeping less, saying absurd things, obsessing with age, specially how young for his age he looked. He started comparing himself with men 10 years young and measuring how well he "scored" compared to them! :o
Well, my husband is still in replay. Its been 5 years! May take a while to be back to core values...
Back to core values after replay makes sense. But what about the LBS? Our core values did not include OW/OM, leaving, not caring for spouse, monster, running, blamming, and all those other amazing traces of MLC. ::) But nor did the MLCer values include none of those things. If it is hard for us to deal with such change of values it must be really, really hard for a MLCer to realise they have throw away everything they believed in and thought valid.
I would not want to be a MLCer! It is so, sooooooooooooo crazy!!!! ::)
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This is hard, but we ARE standing. While we are standing we are evolving too. Don't you feel the changes.
If we feel the changes maybe we pull the MLC along, as we get calmer, stronger maybe we can give them some security when they come out of Tunnel. Like the Groundhog on Groundhog day, he peeps out of the tunnel to see if the sun is shining then bobs back.
WE need to have grown, detached and be safe so that we can make a clear judgement without feeling we have to reconcile and also look after the welfare of these poor frightened people, without putting ourselves at risk.
In some ways we need to be like calm parents to a child that has fallen over. They did not mean to hurt us.
Dont get me wrong this has been the most painful experience in my life since my father died when I was young. But what does not kill you makes you stronger. This isn't about me the Stander, we just have to watch and have empathy, something they dont have at the moment.
We need to be the rock they can rely on, and to the Groundhog the sign that the winter is over.
So, we need to work on ourselves so that we are ready before they are, or they will go back in the Tunnel.
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Great post, Freddy
I know they did not meant to hurt us, that they are hurting as well.
Your image of the Groundhog peeping out of the tunnel to check the sun describes quite well their state of mind. That is one of the parts I find more difficult, after we have grown to have to think out to lool after such a frail person without stoping caring for me.
So, we need to work on ourselves so that we are ready before they are, or they will go back in the Tunnel.
That is tough work. But I guess it is part of the process. Sometimes I see myself has the lighthouse in the middle of a tremendous storm. The storm lashes out at me, the waves nearly swallow me, it last forever. Or so it looks like. The storm breaks and I, the lighthouse, still stand there, tall, strong, keeping pointing the way to the ships, not letting them sink.
A bit pretencious, perhaps, but it does help me go through this.
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The lighthouse analogy is a good one, AnneJ.
To comment on why we don't see more reconciliations, I think it's also because those who do reconcile in large part get off boards like this. Now this board is still new and full of people in the early stages so that's part if it here, but my experience on other boards is that people who do reconcile often just want to put boards like this firmly in the past -- it's a reminder of the horror of it all.
Also, because this can take such a long time, those who have been in it for a few years and still not reconciled tend to taper off posting and then not come back if/when a reconciliation has taken place, as places like this then aren't seen as necessary, and besides, they already weaned themselves off. There are only a few, such as stayed and HB, who come back to help.
I personally know of a few cases in RL that have reconciled; don't know all the timelines but there are a few 5+ year ones. That said, I'm sure there are many more where the LBS has closed the door before that amount of time.
I agree that it is tough work; I can see how far I have come, but also where there is still work to be done. So, deep breath, keep going.
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I don't think we should underestimate how much the MLC is aware of the Stander.
In one way they want to know that you are there.
I believe that when they come out of the tunnel they hope that you are going to be receptive. However at that point they will have realisation of the devastation and hurt that has been caused and will probably NOT expect you to be there. In the opposite situation they would probably not stand.
To a degree this is why I believe we need to be consistant, calm but have boundaries and be firm.
Yes we understand, yes we have felt pain and have maintained stability, but it has to be stated by our firmness that this is unaccepatble and wont be allowed to continue.
This is why I have read here that we should be cautious that it is actually over and that they show all the signs of it being completely over before we can allow our guard to drop.
I think most of us will react to early and maybe have another cycle to deal with.
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SK, A friend told me a saying a while back that summed up a phenomena I've seen a number of times in my life:
"Women mourn, men replace."
TMHP
Geez, my W must be right about me lately when she says I'm too much like a woman. H mourning here.
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Maybe the saying should be "LBS's mourn, MLCers replace."
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To comment on why we don't see more reconciliations, I think it's also because those who do reconcile in large part get off boards like this. Now this board is still new and full of people in the early stages so that's part if it here, but my experience on other boards is that people who do reconcile often just want to put boards like this firmly in the past -- it's a reminder of the horror of it all.
Trust, yes , it makes sense. If one has reconciled most likely will not want to be remembered of all the horror, hurt and hardness.
wondering, I 'm with you, the saying should be "LBS's mourn, MLCers replace."
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Just wanted to offer up a bit of my own back story.
My H left once before, about 6 or 7 years back. He was gone nearly a year, during which I had no clue he was cheating. What snapped him out of it was when I started to heal a bit and told him I wanted to sell the house and move out of state to be with my family. I was not dating or even threatening to date, but this was a clear 'end' to any future R between us.
H pannicked, came clean about the affairs, asked forgiveness, and moved home.
FTR, he busted @$$ to be a good H. For my part I worked hard to forgive and rebuild my trust in him. BUT, I had NOT learned the lessons needed to have a strong healthy relationship. Looking back, I can see that I was very early in my healing and detachment when H returned - just barely getting back on my feet again.
The next few years were honestly great. We were closer than ever (or so I thought), we even decided to have a child and planned to adopt 2 or 3 more.
Looking back though, there were many red flags that I missed or in some cases even refused to acknowledge. My H was still RUNNING from facing the consequences of his actions and struggling to find a balance between who he wanted to be and the shadow RCR talks about in her articles - even years after moving home again.
I guess my point is that, yes, it can 'work' to shock a cheating spouse into coming back. Unfortunately I think that if both have not learned and grown from the crisis, you will not be reconciling, merely limping along in the same old broken relationship. I also happen to think that the stage that the LBS has reached is far more important than where the MLC spouse is at, especially since many (most?) who return are still deeply damaged people. It seems to me that when/if they try to return, it is at the point of ONLY BEGINING to heal from their crisis, not really at its completion.
It did occur to me early on that H very well might come back if I went totally dark, cut off all contact, and moved home with our daughter to be with my family. I chose not to do this because I felt I did not have the right to take D away from her father, despite the fact that he chose to break our family apart.
Sometimes I do regret my decision to stay, especially after finding out how H had exposed D to his OW from the beginning of his affair. It it hard to be here with no family of my own. But, I am convinced that staying to work on myself and to allow D to have the best possible relationship possible with her daddy (given the circumstances) - was the right choice. If I had left - for a different state or a new R - I would have just been doing my own running.
I have come to believe that standing is not a tactic to regain my marriage. It is the space and the time I need to heal. It is only after healing myself that I can ever hope to have any sort of healthy relationship with anyone in the future.
And, for the record - I do not measure the success or failure of this site in the admittedly small number of reconciliations. I see this board as a success each time I read someone post some small step in their their journey to healing, growth, and peace in this madness surrounding us. There are thousands of these healing steps being taken here every day. It is amazing and beautiful to see. It gives me strength when I am spent from dealing with this mess.
I will now get off my soapbox and go make some coffee.
((Hugs)) y'all.
- Zen
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HFZ,
Your post reminds me why I was drawn to your thread from the first time I ever read any of your posts.
I think you wrote exactly what I believe Standing to be.
At first, like any Newbie, I came to this site in hopes of finding "the way" to regain my lost relationship. It took many months and much reading to realize and accept that there is no going back. It took me awhile to accept that my marriage had died. And, it had died long before BD.
To me, this is what Standing is about. Learning to heal....learning to live on - in spite of what is going on or not going on with my H. I have always suspected that my H was a deeply troubled man - although he hid it very well. I see now that he is severly troubled. His shadow has plagued him and he has tried to avoid and run away from it for years. During the time we raised our kids - he busied himself with being a really wonderful Dad - to our girls. For my Son - it was not the same situation. Its funny (strange - not HaHa) that we sometimes repeat the errors that our parents made. My H's father treated my H somewhat harshly - giving him credit for very little. And, at the same time, my FIL doted on his daughter. My H did the same thing with our kids. He completed adored our oldest D, spent the most of his time with our youngest D, while he was tough on our Son. Trying to make a "man" out of him. It's funny - my H tried so hard to make a man of our Son - while, in reality, my H was just a scared little boy. It didn't help that I doted on and babied our Son. It is just this last year - after his father left - that my Son has begun to start to become a man. He is, after all, the man of the house now.
I see now that my H is very troubled. Running, spending....getting himself deeper and deeper in a hole. And, there is nothing that I can do for him. It is time for him to face the consequences of his actions....and learn to stand on his own. He is so very far from that. He has much to experience and very much to learn.
So, as opposed to the questions that I used to ask 6-10 months ago - questions like "When" and "How" and "Why" - I now know that it isn't important for me to know those answers. Actually, there are no answers.
Just me and the kids. He is gone. He is lost.
Hugs,
Limitless
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L, I always feel like you and I are on a similar LBS timeline.
When I got to this board I was just starting to move away from 'tactical' standing and starting to stand for myself. This is a whole new ball game, but I do believe it is a much better path for me, for my daughter, and strangely... even for my H.
Recently I had a thought that struck me as odd. I realized a while back that I would be OK if H never came home. Recently I realized that I might even be OK if he comes home too. Made me realize that for a while I didn't think I would be able to be OK if he returned.
Still a long way to go on this journey. Glad to have you here to share it with.
8)
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Hope for Zen, Wow..What a great description of the meaning of standing. I love what you wrote:
And, for the record - I do not measure the success or failure of this site in the admittedly small number of reconciliations. I see this board as a success each time I read someone post some small step in their their journey to healing, growth, and peace in this madness surrounding us. There are thousands of these healing steps being taken here every day. It is amazing and beautiful to see. It gives me strength when I am spent from dealing with this mess.
This is so important...our journey to wholeness. I going to have to reread this everytime I'm in a slump. Just the other day, I mentioned how I was discouraged at not hearing enough stories of reconciliations on this board. I'm glad I read your post...It helps to refocus. I also believe that when people start to reconcile that they tend to leave the forum. Some will stay to help others, others will want to put some of the pain behind them. It takes special people to stay around to help others because it's hard to read about all the pain. Even myself, only one year into this, can have a hard time reading the extreme pain of a newbies story.
Thanks for reminding me of the true purpose of standing. I know no matter what, I am coming out of this a stronger, better person.
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Recently I had a thought that struck me as odd. I realized a while back that I would be OK if H never came home. Recently I realized that I might even be OK if he comes home too. Made me realize that for a while I didn't think I would be able to be OK if he returned.
Interesting. I've been feeling the same. Just that, if he comes back, will only be taken back without OW on the picture. I've had all the drama of a 3rd person in the equation with OW1.
And yes, I agree that standing is a time for us to heal, and, if possible come out a it a better person.
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OK - I am sort of going off on a complete tangent here, but having seen some recent interactions of H on fb (we are not friends but have some mutual friends who he sometimes, well rarely, interacts with) that are definitely of the teenage variety, I keep wondering HOW is it that the alienators do not notice how juvenile our MLCers behaviours are? I just don't get it! Do they think it is normal for people in their mid to late 30s to use lots of teenage vocabulary and endless smilely faces (like a 14 year old?). I saw something H had posted and the way it was written struck me as odd and I couldnt explain why until I realised it was written in the manner that his 15 year old cousin might write a note to a friend on fb - not like mature man at all.
If these MLCer display behaviours that cycle between preschool to teenage behviour, how does ANOTHER adult, presumably not in MLC, not notice how bizarre some of the MLCer's interactions are for a middle aged person?
Sorry, hijacking my own discussion topic here, but if anyone can suggest a plausible reason?
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This is clear, and what I have seen is that the other adult is also in MLC too. I think this is why some of these replays last so long is that when two people both in MLC interact the process is almost feeding itself.
My wife and the OM wear some crazy stuff, you should listen to the music CD's he produces and she listens to. She would never listen to this juvenile stuff and they do look ridiculously scruffy. The way they speak and laugh at other people when clearly it is them that are rediculous. Maybe it takes to MLC's to tango?
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We've also seen so many embarrassing 'tweenage' behaviours - some have disappeared, some come and go.
The worst stage would have had to have been the crude 'humour' - my previously gentlemanly H turned into a douche bag, as our eldest son now calls him. Not good!
I too have scratched my head over how the OW can't notice. Not sure if they all are in MLC or if some just never grow up.
I think so many of them are so dysfunctional, desperate and needy, they go along with whatever because this rubbish is better than the alternative (which is to be without our H's) in their eyes.
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If the alienator is younger, then it's not MLC... it's just psychological immaturity. My husband said very early on that his OW was "Extremely immature" and the other day told me I gave her too much credit if I thought she was manipulating him because "she's not a deep thinker"... the whole R between the two of them is socially and psychologically immature... they are both spiritually and emotionally void, so there is that vacuum to fill.... they don't recognize it in each other because they are so self absorbed and equal in their immaturity. MLCers typically are naive about manipulations, particularly when it comes from females... they just cannot believe she isn't just hopelessly and forever IN LOVE with him.... like a tragic love story where they have no choice but to go on without one another "because of society".
If the alienator isn't younger, then it MIGHT be MLC, or just an immature person with "issues". People who aren't self aware just bounce along in life like billiard balls on a table... my husband was always like that... thought that it was LIFE, and not his choices that caused him problems.
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OK - I am sort of going off on a complete tangent here, but having seen some recent interactions of H on fb (we are not friends but have some mutual friends who he sometimes, well rarely, interacts with) that are definitely of the teenage variety, I keep wondering HOW is it that the alienators do not notice how juvenile our MLCers behaviours are? I just don't get it! Do they think it is normal for people in their mid to late 30s to use lots of teenage vocabulary and endless smilely faces (like a 14 year old?). I saw something H had posted and the way it was written struck me as odd and I couldnt explain why until I realised it was written in the manner that his 15 year old cousin might write a note to a friend on fb - not like mature man at all.
If these MLCer display behaviours that cycle between preschool to teenage behviour, how does ANOTHER adult, presumably not in MLC, not notice how bizarre some of the MLCer's interactions are for a middle aged person?
Sorry, hijacking my own discussion topic here, but if anyone can suggest a plausible reason?
Because the OW/OM is very imature, because they are in a midlife crisis, because they have regressive behavior, because of the social group they belong to. Like you I'm not friends with my Husband on FB but we share some mutual friends + my SIL. Husband and OW2 (she is about to turn 36) look like silly teenagers in their comments. My amazement is not about husband and OW but about my SIL. I'm not so much amazed of some of the friends (well, in reality acquaintances). How came my SIL does not get that husband (her brother) life is a teenager life? And that OW2 must be a bit childish for a age? Maybe become my husband become a bit successful in his new, DJ-party boy, new life. All that glitter and la-la-la land and "oh, you're the man" can make people go ga-ga.
OW1 (29 when the affair begun) I think let herself fall for the "unhappy" married man. She was more mommy type. Very caring and sweet. Also, of course, dazed with is "success".
LG, I think its that, psychological immaturity. Still, why does my SIL finds all that normal?... She was always a balanced person...
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AnneJ,
I am guessing your SIL is not seeing it because she simply does not want her B to have a "problem". My H's family all know (without a shadow of doubt) that he is in a crisis and they still defend some of his behaviour as if his choices are rational. So if people who are not in denial about their relative's problems find it hard to comprehend, someone who denies seeing the problem (because they can't admit that their loved one has faults/problems that might run deep) will refuse to see it any way but the way that suits...
Thanks for responding to my hijack everyone. It makes sense - H's OW is in her mid 20s, so too young for MLC, but undoubtedly immature and definitely with issues...
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Part of my LBS journey took me to a website called baggereclaim.com - it is a site for OW who are in 'recovery' because they recognise the destructive nature of relationships with attached men.
In it's archives it has a piece about what makes the OW an OW - and it boils down to low self esteem, denial of issues, accepting crumbs and a complete and utter lack of boundaries and self respect.
it's a very informative site and focusses on emtionally healthy relationships with emtionally available men - which is a great message for LBS everywhere - where you're standing fr your marriage or moving on.
P
x
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Rachel continued to read this thread after I posted her email and when I responded to your responses. She sent me this response for posting.
Dear Kindred Souls,
I think I understand why my letter was so upsetting to some of you. I received Thundarr’s original post from RCR via email. [Actually it was StandandDeliver'spost, Reply #12] I read it out of context. I did not have much time, and chose not to read the rest of this thread before responding. I forgot, for a moment, to remember and state clearly how much pain my H and I went through. Maybe this would have made reading my post a little easier.
Our D experience occurred over nine-months. By the end of that process we did truly believe that our children would be “better off” with happier, more fulfilled parents… Just like SO many others have come to believe in this crazy divorce culture. This “belief” may be one of the biggest reasons that most of the 80% of unilateral divorces occur….bc the Leaving Spouse has bought into this tragic myth. Just like we did. I know many of you were angry, reading about that in our experience. But I felt very sad to read your responses to my letter –many, as RCR says “casting stones”—in my direction, if even inadvertently. Obviously, given our reconciliation, we don’t believe that stuff anymore…I was trying to explain our experience to you because RCR asked me if I’d like to give more clarity about what happened to us. I decided to write in hopes of giving more info and perspective from _reconcilers_. We did reconcile. We learned. We changed. I am one of those few.
What can I say that will inspire you to ask me questions, or feel moved to read ALL my blog posts? With those posts, I try my best to articulate the things we have learned that made our reconciliation possible. Very few reconcilers are out there writing and researching …I’m SOO grateful to RCR for her work. But there are not many of us doing this. From reading this thread, it seems there are far too few reconciliations. I’m working to find the magic bullet to change that. It’s why I’m starting to work with RCR and others on the Coalition for Divorce Reform.
I have educated myself deeply about our divorce culture, and that culture now makes me so upset. It drives most of what I do… People flee thinking they will become more fulfilled, when it fact, the opposite is almost certainly what will happen. I am like you. I felt enormous pain when my husband partnered with another woman…even though she was my friend, and even though I had “condoned” it and thought I supported it. Even though we had an amicable divorce that we had finally –through much work and pain—decided mutually, that we wanted. But there was still great pain. And it has taken a lot of work for me to be close to the OW, my friend, again. But it has been so worth it.
Now, I spend *every* free moment working to educate and inform people not only about the risks of divorce, but about the universal urge to flee a marriage when personal needs are not getting met. And it is also true that understanding human biology and sexuality has totally healed our angst and pain, in a way that nothing else came close to doing. I share this very clearly with people in pain and struggling with infidelity because it totally changed our marriage and healing. That discussion of sexuality is part of what made my first letter so uncomfortable for many, I think. I’m not saying anything about condoning non-monogamy, but I am saying monogamy is very hard and it goes against our own biology. Knowing that makes understanding people’s humanity a lot easier for me. But in all honesty, it took me—a biologist by training-- a year of processing and working with the information, before I could achieve that level of healing.
I rarely spend a lot of time writing blog responses like this, because I’m so focused on using the little bit of time I have to write blog posts and my memoir. I am hopeful those will make a wider impact—reaching the very spouses who have left people like the ones here, and maybe, inspiring those spouses to return. I am trying to make a difference, to help. After reading through all your responses, after my initial sadness at reading some of the stones being thrown at my letter--my heart upwelled with such tenderness and love for all of you and your pain and I felt called to write a more explanatory, heartfelt letter.
I’ve been deferring any paid work for more than 2 years; our family has been managing on my husband’s salary, specifically so I can work on the blog, or working on the memoir. This, while being a full-time stay-at-home mom. My whole GOAL is to shift this culture away from divorce. Jesus is one of my heroes. He was one our greatest teachers and lovers of understanding, inner peace, compassion, forgiveness, and unconditional love. I don’t have shame, blame, or resentment anymore, in part, bc of his lessons. I have forgiven myself and my husband, because I understand what happened, and how human we were, and how we were doing the best we could with what we had at the time. As we all are always doing.
With love, peace, and hope to you all for the love you want, Rachel
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AnneJ,
I am guessing your SIL is not seeing it because she simply does not want her B to have a "problem". My H's family all know (without a shadow of doubt) that he is in a crisis and they still defend some of his behaviour as if his choices are rational. So if people who are not in denial about their relative's problems find it hard to comprehend, someone who denies seeing the problem (because they can't admit that their loved one has faults/problems that might run deep) will refuse to see it any way but the way that suits...
If the resons is my SIL not wanting to see her B has a problem I wonder what would it takes for her to see a problem with him... I don't know what she knows or does not know. I mean, what he has told her and the rest of his family, except that we were separated (that was 5 years ago). But if one of my brothers would drop by my house, has he did with is S, with a woman I did not know, after spending 20 years with someone, I would thought something was wrong. Add to that all the crazy behavior that followed, OW2 and so on...and it is hard to ignore that something is going on with him...Still...maybe she does not want to see because it is too painful.
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Thank you for your reply to this thread, Rachel.... I really appreciate it! I also appreciate that your point of view has shifted.... we all have skeletons in our closet and hopefully have learned from our mistakes...for instance, I have had inappropriate relationships when I was much younger and didn't give it a second thought, though I never considered myself to be "hopelessly in love" with a married man with children... not sure I could have gone THERE... I was also married and divorced once before, amicable, with no children, yet I still saw the devastation and deep disappointment it caused for my ex husband and in laws... again, learned from my mistakes.
Can you tell me if you or your husband were children of divorced or blended families and how that influenced your decisions, if at all? I know that my husband and I both seem to have a PATHOLOGICAL desire to keep our family intact, which is weird, given his MLC compulsion to abandon us and consideration at one time early on to divorce... It's our own way of "doing over" that part of our childhoods....
Thanks again for your reply....
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OK - I am sort of going off on a complete tangent here, but having seen some recent interactions of H on fb (we are not friends but have some mutual friends who he sometimes, well rarely, interacts with) that are definitely of the teenage variety, I keep wondering HOW is it that the alienators do not notice how juvenile our MLCers behaviours are? I just don't get it! Do they think it is normal for people in their mid to late 30s to use lots of teenage vocabulary and endless smilely faces (like a 14 year old?). I saw something H had posted and the way it was written struck me as odd and I couldnt explain why until I realised it was written in the manner that his 15 year old cousin might write a note to a friend on fb - not like mature man at all.
If these MLCer display behaviours that cycle between preschool to teenage behviour, how does ANOTHER adult, presumably not in MLC, not notice how bizarre some of the MLCer's interactions are for a middle aged person?
Sorry, hijacking my own discussion topic here, but if anyone can suggest a plausible reason?
I really could have written the same thing you did - felt the SAME way.this really struck a cord.. My ex had different vocabulary even, words she never used before. And I do wonder how others dont pick up on how bizarre all that is. And some do, they just dont know what to do about it. .I don't know the reason but some of the physchology stuff I've read re MLC suggested that it's like a second adolescence. Somewhere it said that MLC's didn't successfully pass through their adolescence stage - so they are repeating it now. I had an interesting perspective because I knew my ex as a teen and I saw that same teen behavior again in the MLC - except this time around, I was the problem.
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First off, thank you Rachel for responding and clarifying your positions on things. RCR mentioned that I for one may have taken what you wrote the wrong way, and your recent writing indicates that to be the case. I thank you for standing up for what you do and hope and pray that we see a change in this divorce culture. I cannot imagine how badly future generations will be affected by all this and the damage that is being done to kids even today. I don't believe in divorce and thought my W didn't either, but she filed on me before we even had a chance to talk. I don't know if she will see it through or not, but I am devastated like many others here. It's just not right. My kids are suffering, I'm suffering and she most likely is. We were such a happy family and I didn't think anything other than death would ever change that. We are literally living in Hell.
On the subject of the bizarre behavior, our D18 was using my W's phone and happened to check her texts between she and her lawyer friend. She gave me this puzzled look and said my W was writing stuff like she would have at 15. Truly strange and not like a 41 year-old at all. She couldn't believe how juvenile and dumb it was, and that she was texting paragraphs of nonsense and he was answering with one-word replies. Astounding.
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Thundarr, sounds normal for the sitch from what I have learned. It's a thrill it's an inoxicating addictive high that chemistry. It is a tough ride to take. Hang in there.
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I think the MLCer comes out of his crisis when he is ready. I think what makes this time go faster and easier for the LBS'er is if they spend that time, wisely caring for themselves. Discovering who they really are and who they want to be. I think the LBS'er simply takes advantage of the times that the MLCer is in crisis.
The time passes much faster for the LBS that is focused on themselves as they are learning, growing, maturing within themselves. They can't see the time as wasted. The MLCer sees the strength, power and inner contentedness of their LBS, which is obviously very attractive. Sadly though, the LBS has moved on in a different direction and place then their MLC'er. As Dontgiveup has been patiently trying to tell everybody, RCR's role in this, is to try to help the LBS'er to improve themselves while giving their MLCer the time they need to complete their process.
The truth is, people who divorce once, are not nearly as timid about divorcing a second time. They have overcome their discomfort of walking away from a marriage, not nearly as likely to "tolerate" traits that are annoying and of course, having been through it once have not made the financial commitments mistakes they made the first time around, so are not as FEARFUL of the financial consequences of DIVORCING. Basically, giving your marriage a second chance after an MLcrisis, is no more of a risk then marrying a total stranger. Also, it usually takes people many years to find another partner, probably almost as long as it would take for the average MLC'er to come out of crisis.
hugs Stayed
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Also, it usually takes people many years to find another partner, probably almost as long as it would take for the average MLC'er to come out of crisis.
hugs Stayed
I never considered the above. It is probably very true. Judging by what I saw out at the singles event the other night, it would take years to find an appropriate companion/relationship. People are really broken. I am willing to wait for my broken H, but to take on someone else who has baggage and issues. NO WAY! I am done wanting to fix anyone else. They are on their own.
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No kidding learningIamok! No kidding. I found the same thing. Once experience I had, some X-cop tried to impress me with some stupid old, stake out he was involved in before he retired and became a "security guard" at the Parliament Building... :o yea, right, I was impressed.... wtf :o :o
Most of the stuff I have read and most of the people I have talked to who have been through this, claim the MLCer does eventually come out of this. Usually the LBS isn't available anymore. I have to say, the devil I had before MLC was one hell of a good man. Very loving, responsible and all round nice bloke... I can't help but think, with my luck, I'd probably find some dude who was all damaged like I was when h and I first reconciled... wouldn't that have been a recipe for disaster?
hugs Stayed...
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I think the MLCer comes out of his crisis when he is ready. I think what makes this time go faster and easier for the LBS'er is if they spend that time, wisely caring for themselves. Discovering who they really are and who they want to be. I think the LBS'er simply takes advantage of the times that the MLCer is in crisis.
The time passes much faster for the LBS that is focused on themselves as they are learning, growing, maturing within themselves.
Agree with Stayed the above view ........... I feel sorry and sad that my H is where he is in his life and wish he was able to get through his issues faster and become the person I have always believed he was and would mature into .. BUT he is not this person .. for now .. but I hope he will be one day BUT I feel that I am the lucky one why - I am not where he is .. So ... take the time as suggested to change yourself for the better .. and if your MLCer is good enough for the new you then so be it if not sad but hey ?
B x
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I am currently facing this dilemma with myself. Should I stand or move on? Had a good summer with H being around and interacting well, but then he's gone crazy again, hooked up with OW and treating our D's badly.
I want him to feel the loss of his family, I want to tell him I'm done with him ... but if he changes in a few months or even longer, then I would be willing to work with him on a new relationship. How do I explain that and make him understand the loss?
By move on I don't mean find someone else in a hurry, I don't think that would be wise in any event.
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lpxpe, you seem to have missed the point we were making here. Standing is no longer what this is about for most of us anymore. This whole situation belongs to our MLCers, we realize that, accept that! Our challenge now, is to become the best people we can possibly make ourselves into, with or without our spouses.
We recognize that MLC takes time. We consider this time to be an advantage to ourselves, also to the MLCer, even if he/she does not realize it. All of us can see that over the years of our marriages we became codependent, forsaken our personal identities and gave away a good part of who we were and who we were meant to be. We now see this time as an OPPORTUNITY to rectify this dilemma.
Time is no longer a concern, it is a friend. We have the time, however much time WE NEED to find ourselves and REBUILD. This is not going to happen in a week, a month, a year, could take several years. MLC takes several years as well. Seeing as we LBS's are really in no condition/state to be making major decisions, this is much needed time to FIX OURSELVES, help our children adjust and learn from this without destroying their lives and our own, as well.
This has become all about us now.
hugs Stayed
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Stayed, thank you. I have a lot of thinking and learning still to do, I know that. I have read lots of your posts, very wise words. Thank you xx
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It's a process lpxpe! A long process, sometimes when you think you have it pretty much figured out... WHAM... you don't know nothing! You are doing great dear. Still being on your feet is an achievement with this crap. Also, it takes a good couple of years or even longer to actually be able to see ANY GOOD that could possibly come out of this.
Like most things, once you actually get through it, with or without your marriage, there is a feeling of achievement.
hugs Stayed
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But I think what so many people are saying here is that mentally and emotionally they CAN'T move on until they cut that invisible rope that is "STANDING" for their marriage. I think as people, and especially as mothers, we feel a pull every day to be the best that we can for different ends. I have always felt that standing for me, for my kids, for my marriage, for my career force me to invest in different aspects of my life and personality. And ultimately I decided that I am standing for my kids.
And in that regard, I was explaining to my S14 yesterday that every single day we make THOUSANDS of choices, from which teeth to brush first to how to treat the people we love. Some of them are more important than others, but each one changes us, if only for a second. And more than anything, happiness and love are choices. If I choose to spend an extra ten minutes in the shower, for myself and know I am using all the hot water, I may be choosing happiness, but I am not choosing love for anyone else in my house, and ultimately, am I choosing happiness if I make others around me miserable? What I try to teach my kids every day is "CONSCIOUS LIVING." That all our choices matter and that we should not walk through life unconsciously but with awareness of how we impact the people we love, or might love, or love us.
And that is where standing for my marriage has always been hard, because every single day, I would make different choices FOR HIM, and not for me, my kids, my career. Standing to me always meant putting him first. And I can't do that, I just can't. If I could cognitively believe that by standing for my kids and for me was somehow equal to standing for my marriage, I could call myself a stander, and in some ways I do, contrary to the opinions here and RCRs belief. In many ways I believe I will be standing for my marriage until I marry another, and I actually don't think I could ever do that, I just don't see the purpose since marriage to me is about kids, and I don't intend to have more of those... Whether I date or have sex, live with another, as far as I'm concerned does not matter because none of that closes the door on R if he chooses it. And in MY reality, if he expects me to forgive ALLLLLL his madness, then he would have to accept my conscious choices to make the most happiness I can for myself and my kids while he is having his narcissistic tantrum.
The only thing I don't buy is the double standard, that MLCers can do anything while "standers" sit back and try to become the person their MLCer wanted while patiently waiting. Because I could work on the things he said bothered him, but I LIKE some of those things about me. And truly the only way to learn that was to date and see what other people like in me--otherwise the only perspective I have is his. Anyway, I feel here the same dilemma I felt, STANDING for your MARRIAGE is an anchor in your journey to yourself, I don't see how it can't be.
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Hey Lisa,
First off, as always you expressed yourself so eloquently and your points are very solid. I have some of the same concerns you do, but have a few differing perspectives.
I have given alot of thought about how or why we would need to change ourselves if this is really all about the MLCer. Common sense would dictate that we would need to stay true to ourselves as they should want to return to their old lives once they come out of this. But, I've been communicating with another LBSer on here who is divorced already and his perspective is that we change almost like the MLCer is changing in that we take on new hairstyles, clothes, habits and such so that they will notice us and not associate us with their old selves as much. That makes sense to me. I have no interest in changing what I like about myself just because my W used that as an excuse to do what she did.
For heaven's sake, she told me she disliked 95% about me. How would I change that much? Why would I ever want to? I like what I like and that's final. I'm not going to give up my hobbies just so I can compete with some OM somewhere down the road. If it comes to that, count me out anyway.
She also told D10 that she was divorcing me because I liked Britney Spears And yesterday told her that she was divorcing me because I was irresponsible. She said this because I left D10 in the toy section as Wal-Mart (in sight!!) while I went to get something from another aisle. I guess I need to become a different person. Maybe even change my name as well, huh?
I will take this time (and it's no gift, btw) to work on myself as I really have nothing better to do. I won't do it so that she might come back, though. I also stand for my family, and I consider her part of that. I want the prodigal to return to the flock (soon!!) but have to keep moving forward in life. If the right person comes along and W is still treating me like crap with no signs of turning around, who knows. I know I won't grow old alone hoping she will come back someday. I'm glad to see that you are also leaving the door open to R if your husband does the heavy work. By my definition, that makes you a stander but just not one that's standing still.
Thank you again for your contributions!!
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Hi Lisa and Thundarr, these are interesting points you are making and I see the relevance. My first and immediate reaction at BD was consern for my wife and why did she feel it was necessary to do this?
Then I admit to a little panic. This had been going on for 2 years while I was clearly sleepwalking. Now 2 years after BD I am 59 and, let's be fair, time starts to be like sand in an hour glass.
Maybe it is different for men I dont know, but I have had more help from ladies with this problem than men. Even my male friends shy away from help. They will discuss, but not give any help because they are bewildered too.
But from ladies I have had much support and encouragement to be strong and stand and they make it clear that I need not be alone.
So any of you guy thing you are heading for being alone, if you are looking after yourself mentally and physically, this experience is like a mental gym that simply tones you up for whatever the future holds. And it seems that age is not against you.
So going back to what Lisa was saying, I dont think you have to lock yourself away and wait for this MLC to blow over. Have a life and learn and maybe your prince will come back, but there are other princes if he drags his heels. I think the MLC has a race to recover before the stander forgets what they were like before MLC. But for us, life should not stand still while those grains of sand are falling through the hour glass. Particularly if their are not so many left.
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Everything about this situation is confusing LisaLives. I suspect that most people in here, fluctuate like crazy from one minute to another about what they want to do, or think they want to do, or hell, even feel they must do. There is no 101 Course: Help, My partner has betrayed me, gone crazy and dumbed me like last nights trash!
This event in my life, sent me on a Journey for My Soul. Always thought of myself as strong, happy and independent, then my h went crazy, betrayed me and left me for another woman. Under that tough persona of mine... was a JELLY FISH... a spineless, scared jelly fish. I was forced to find where Stayed went, or was... hehehe... not sure, which. STANDING is how I found me.
I don't think STANDING changed me, I really didn't think I needed changing, just that the real me, got lost somewhere along the way, while being a wife, a mother and whatever other hat I felt I needed to wear. I actually think it helped me get the real ME back.
I wrote this about standing on I See The Light. Your honesty in declaring your non-standing status, seems to have triggered some very interesting discussions. I for one, think it's great.
When LBS's question why they are STANDING, I confess I find it slightly amusing. I remember thinking and feeling the same way. Then one day, it dawned on me, what else could I do? I was so shell shocked, so scared, so heartbroken, I was of no use to anybody else. Whether I divorced my h that very day or waited indefinitely, I was still going to feel like "hell". There really was no other OPTION but to STAND, as I simply was in no condition to make any sort of decisions. Plus, divorcing, moving on, whatever, was not going to change the process, as there was only one way out of this and that was through the pain.
Frankly, I never felt I was STANDING for the marriage. I was STANDING until I could cope on my own. Until I could make rational sensible decisions. I was standing until I could walk and chew bubble gum at the same time. I was standing until I could accept that 29 years of my life had not been wasted. That we had not been MISERABLE and UNHAPPY that entire time. In fact life had been pretty damn good for most of that time. Learning how to move on, without feeling like I was DEVALUING 29 years, that was the hard part.
Of course you are going to question what you are doing! That's part of the process. It's even possible that quite a few of you will one day decide your STAND is over. That you are ready, willing and able to move on without the old marriage, old spouse... with JOY even!
As long as most leave this FORUM feeling better about themselves, able to take control of their lives and resume a happy, contented, healthy life, then this FORUM has served its purpose.
hugs Stayed
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Lisa, I agree with your quote here and it really brought me back to two years ago when all this stuff started:
The only thing I don't buy is the double standard, that MLCers can do anything while "standers" sit back and try to become the person their MLCer wanted while patiently waiting. Because I could work on the things he said bothered him, but I LIKE some of those things about me. And truly the only way to learn that was to date and see what other people like in me--otherwise the only perspective I have is his. Anyway, I feel here the same dilemma I felt, STANDING for your MARRIAGE is an anchor in your journey to yourself, I don't see how it can't be.
In those early days just after bomb drop, all I could think about was how I could change to make my MLCer love me again. I thought of working on my butt to make it cuter (not kidding), buying sexier clothes, avoiding saying anything petty or negative, trying new things, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Then I stopped. I've written of this here many times but essentialy what made me stop was after a year of trying to be whatever I thought he wanted me to be was and seeing those efforts were fruitless, I asked him what else I needed to change to make him happier. The answers he gave, having already used the answers I tried to change, were RIDICULOUS. THAT was when I realized he was insane.
Everything changed right then and there. I stood up, reared up actually, and told him I would NEVER ask him again what he did or didn't like about me and I told him he was insulting and ridiculous and so forth. Most importantly, I told MYSELF that I might be standing, sure, but NO WAY was I going to change for HIM. Any valid complaints he had about our marriage had already been worked on but they were small and few. The rest was CRAP and if he wanted to be married to somone else, he should have thought of that a long time to go and frankly, he was free to go ahead and do it now. I might have been able to watch him change and let him do his thing but he was NO LONGER GOING TO HAVE THAT POWER OVER ME!!!!! If he wanted to change, fine...and if I was going to change at all, that would be because I needed to in my heart and my soul and perhaps my brain but NOT in my dress or appearance or my lifestyle or in any ridiculous and petty way that he mentioned.
I made that abundtantly clear and I have stated it on more than few occassions when it needed it to be said. I have not waivered nor will I. This is the place you get to where you realize, you won't sell your soul just to keep someone in your life. The chips will fall where they may.
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Lisa, yes, in a way I need the invisble rope (and the visible one of still legaly married) to be removed.
I've never changed because of what my husband would like me to change. Well, I don't even remember we wanted anything about me to change. Months before he left and BD we both wanted to change our livestyle, were thinking about having children, move house, etc.
My changes come becouse of all this process, of all that had happened (and not just with my marriage/husband but also with my family) during this 5 years.
The result if that the husband that he was before left/BD does not fit the nowadays me. Let alone the man he is currently. If we are standing waiting for our spouses to go back to what they were, well, that will not do for me. Because I'm no longer that woman who liked and had everything in common with my husband, include lifestyle. My lifestyle is very different now and I don't want the old one back.
Of course that some things did not change in me. Of course that some of the changes may be due to age, to had become older. Whatever the reason, my old husband does not do, current husband is not even a possibility. So, I don'te see much sense in wait for him to change back to what he was, since if it is only that it will not do.
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Exactly, BonBon
BeStar
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I find myself agreeing with everything the girls are saying. But it applies to men too.
My wife not long after BD had criticised everything from my teeth, parentage and foot size, said on reflexion,
'why did I do this?, I had it all, lovely home, friends, money, a life most would envy, a perfect husband, safe , quiet life, but it was not enough'.
Then, she continued her affair with this degenerate but professional man who has never been married, never had children but was in his second relationship which had lasted 17 years, and she told me one argument she had took her 2 days to calm down from.
So you see, this is not about us, not how big your but is or anything you can fix. You change yourself for YOU.
This is about something different. I mean simply that it is different.
They have to try something different.
In an earlier message someone said 'Was dumped by my partner' or something similar. If only that were true.
We don't get dumped, that would be easy, we get put aside but not discarded.
They think we are 'in reserve' like some potted fruit.
Well I ain't going to be Jam for anyone. I am top quality preserve.
They have to fight to get you back.
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Freddygone, I actually agree with you about making them FIGHT to get you back. I also believe they must be held accountable. This is an illness yes, but they are AWARE of what they are doing. To simply allow them to return with little to no accountability, is simply unacceptable.
In order to have a better, more respectful, appreciative, loving marriage... a totally new marriage, there will have to be a lot of changes. Changes from both side, not just one. And HONESTY is the most important change of all... no more keeping your feelings to yourself... honest explanations of what both of you are thinking. Whether you really, truly like this or that....
Man, a lot of changes...
hugs Stayed...
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They think we are 'in reserve' like some potted fruit.
Well I ain't going to be Jam for anyone. I am top quality preserve.
They have to fight to get you back.
And that has always been my problem with standing, like the covenant keepers. I don't want to be the only one fighting for my marriage, I want him to be willing to put himself out there for me, because the way I see it, when the chips were down, he bailed, so I would never have faith that he wouldn't do it again if he wasn't willing to "put skin in the game," so to speak.
You know that saying about who invested the most in breakfast, the pig or the chicken--I don't want to be the only pig in this breakfast! And that's why I admire covenant keepers and people like Syn and LG--they are willing to give everything--that's faith and I admire people who have faith, but I just don't. I am not sure that I don't have a certain amount of faith in a higher power, but people--not so much... And in the whole scheme of things, I don't think any higher power gives two shakes about my marriage--there's too much other important stuff out there.
My pastor once talked about "beautiful people" and by that she meant people of beautiful faith--in god, but there are people who have beautiful faith in other people and I admire that even more, it's harder. If you ever hear Taylor Swift talk about why she still gets excited when she gets nominated for anything, that's beautiful and I hope she never loses that faith. Anyway back to work, my clients still have some modicum of faith in me, so I better deliver!
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Stayed,
I agree with you particularly about honesty. While H is still in his tunnel but reconnecting to me, I still at times keep my mouth shut but when I don't, I am 100% honest. That was not true pre-MLC nor during the worst part of replay. Once out of the tunnel (if ever), honesty on my part will prevail still and I will keep my mouth shut less....
Lisa, I'm quoting you again:
And that has always been my problem with standing, like the covenant keepers. I don't want to be the only one fighting for my marriage, I want him to be willing to put himself out there for me, because the way I see it, when the chips were down, he bailed, so I would never have faith that he wouldn't do it again if he wasn't willing to "put skin in the game," so to speak.
Now that my H has reconnected to me, I have heard apologies and various things but I have not experience the empathy that I deserve. I have tried to demand it but he is still in MLC and so, unwilling, or unable to give that empathy. Now if I ever do get this, my problem is, I think I will still feel what you wrote above. What I don't know is how you get to that place of faith in your spouse again. I didn't want to give him that faith to begin with having been so hurt by a previous relationship but I did because he convinced me I should. How many times does the boat have to sink before you realize the waters simply are not safe?
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Ok, I'm confused. Why would the waters be any less safe with him than with anyone else? If he has come through his crisis, and you believe in the process, then he should be a much safer risk than others would. Someone else might have yet to go through theirs, and you would be back at square one.
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I see Thundarr, what she is saying is that once a bomb goes off it is safe afterwards if it is completely detonated. MLC is over.
If you start with another and you don't know history, experiences, or if there is bomb brewing AGAIN.
From Jaws.....just when you thought is was safe to go back in the water. No No No
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MMMMMMMMMM interesting way of looking at it. The problem is, there just is no way of knowing ANYTHING for sure. This is sort of like getting on an airplane the day after a big crash. The likelihood of there being two air crashes within days of each other, seldom happens. I always feel like the stat beasts have been fed, so I need not worry.
Plus, our expectations are definitely reduced after something like this. We realize now, that nothing is perfect, one can never say "never". Man, I miss my rose coloured glasses. :-[
hugs Stayed
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So you see, this is not about us, not how big your but is or anything you can fix. You change yourself for YOU.
This is about something different. I mean simply that it is different.
They have to try something different.
In an earlier message someone said 'Was dumped by my partner' or something similar. If only that were true.
We don't get dumped, that would be easy, we get put aside but not discarded.
They think we are 'in reserve' like some potted fruit.
Well I ain't going to be Jam for anyone. I am top quality preserve.
They have to fight to get you back.
Beautifuly putted Freddygone. No, we were not dumped by our parters. They lets us in limbo while themselves are in a real dark over emotional and irracional place.
stayed, I don’t know if it’s a case of them fighting for us to be back. That is nice, but… To be is more a case of how they come out of it. They may fight us much as they want for us, but if they have not become a better person they were before it all happened, not much point in having them back. At least, like I have explained before, I’ve moved so far that my husband become whole againg and be is old self before BD will not do.
Before coming fighting for us they have to fight for themselves, much as we’ve had to go through this.
I completely agree with you about them being held accountable. Back and no accountability is really unacceptable, and dare say, unhealthy for, if that is the case, the future relashionship.
Lisa, while in MLC none of them is capable to fight for their marriage. Actually they are not even capable of fighting for themselves. They just get into one mess after another. When after MLC, yes, they must be willing to fight, and help the LBS, with the marriage. I think that if they succesefully complete MLC they will not do the same again.
That is correct, Thundarr, we may run the risk of couple up with someone that may go through their own MLC. That is why, now, I find it very important to know a person background, setbacks, how they handled them. However, the thing is, sometimes we may become incompatible/not like the person (and they not liking us) by the time the journey is over. Even if the MLCer as completed the journey and come out well of it.
So, in the end, the LBS may discover that will be better with someone else, even if that person have had their onw MLC. We change with age, we change with this, we change with family events. We and our spouses may no longer find ourselves in the same track.
I’m one month short of 5 years of this. No away I will go back to my previous life. Don’t get me wrong, I loved my husband and our life. But it was our life when I was 5 years younger, before BD and a million other things that come along. That life no longer suits me. Now, imagine my husband come out of this as he was. Well, he will be miles away from this new me. And he may never become someone that will be on the same track I’m at.
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Thundarr,
I think you were referring to my post...and I did not mean that I would be looking to put my faith in someone else...on the contrary. For one thing, I love my H and we are still together but should that change, I'm "out" of the relationship thing. That sounds short sighted and even bitter maybe...but really, I married at 35 so had a long list of heartbreak, severe in some cases, before H. I thought he was my saving grace...and then this MLC. So, this marriage is it for me. I would not attempt it again with someone else.
What I meant was I don't know if I can let down my defenses enough to put my faith and trust in him again. He is reconnecting, though still in MLC, but trying very hard to make things up to me. I am finding it extremely difficult. I know that it needs more time, more progression on his part as well. But I don't know that I can get to that place of trust and faith that I had with him before once the time is right.
Which leads me to what Stayed said...nothing is perfect and maybe those rose colored glasses will never appear again..that is a good thing in a way but it was really nice to have that faith in him. What a shame.
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I get what you mean now, Bon, and also AnneJ.
In my case, I disagree with Freddy though. I WAS dumped, discarded, thrown away. My wife filed for D before even warning me with the famous line "I'm divorcing your ass" when I caught her in a lie and somewhere she had no business being. She didn't put me on hold, tell me to wait, admit she was going through something etc. She dumped me like trash after 21 years. I'm not jam or jelly or butter. I'm spoiled meat covered in maggots.
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I get what you mean now, Bon, and also AnneJ.
In my case, I disagree with Freddy though. I WAS dumped, discarded, thrown away. My wife filed for D before even warning me with the famous line "I'm divorcing your ass" when I caught her in a lie and somewhere she had no business being. She didn't put me on hold, tell me to wait, admit she was going through something etc. She dumped me like trash after 21 years. I'm not jam or jelly or butter. I'm spoiled meat covered in maggots.
Thundarr, you're still quite at the begging of this. I felt like you when my husband left and then when BD come. It took me a long time to stop feeling dumped.
You are not spoiled meat covered with maggots. You're a great husband, currently with a disfunction wife, and a wonderful and strong father. And, in time, you'll be a brand new and much better man.
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I'll second that AnneJ! (((((((((( Huggs Thundarr ))))))))))
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Thundarr,
Dumped or not...that doesn't matter.
What matters is how you feel about yourself. I'm hoping that you wrote that meaning she looks at you in that way...or that you feel that she's treated you as though you were spoiled meat...
I'm hoping that you don't actually feel that way about yourself! If you do, or if anyone reading this does, then you are giving your confused mess of a spouse WAY too much power. I felt that way too for awhile truth be told. NOT NOW. NOT EVER AGAIN.
Why would you, or anyone who feels that way, let someone who has turned into a selfish ass, make you feel that way? Why would their opinion count for anything AT ALL during this stage of their life???? Well, many of us do make this mistake. If you haven't Thundarr, again, I'm writing this to whomever might feel this way.
Bottom line...Don't let an MLCer make you feel worthless. EVER. They are the ones who need to look at their sorry behavior, their sorry words, the mess they've made out of things.
Just remember that.
And I write this with a hug!
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Hi Thundarr, You are still freshly wounded. In a little more time you will see the real spoiled meat and it won't be you!
Sorry to say but it will be the W. A good man/father doesn't become "spoiled" because your wayward wife say's so. Learn that fast!
The best revenge is to not let her see you hurt or spew. Smile even if it's fake! Her MLC job is to bring you down past her level. Be wise and strong.
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Hey all,
I didn't think about how that sounded until I was on the way home. I didn't mean I think of myself like that at all, but was just responding to Freddy's comment about jam being put aside. I meant I was being treated like spoiled meat - thrown out with the trash. I do not look at myself this way whether she's in her right mind or not.
Thanks to you all for the support, though!!
((((((HUGS))))))) to all!!!
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Freddy and Thurdarr’s analogies made me think of how scary we must look to our MLCer once we are no longer a wreck.
They walked, did (are doing) all those wrong, sometimes mean and nasty things, let many of us in financial dire straits, and here we are, with a smile on our face and enjoying life.
We are strong and to them, we must be really intimidating. They no longer have a clue how to deal with us. Must be tough. They are no longer (not they ever were since the MLC beging, they just thought so) calling the shots. Can’t bother, upset or anger us. How frustrating.
The frustration that comes of this makes them, I think, become even more mad at us, caring on doing loony stupid things. And, I would guess, at the same, madder at themselves.
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Thundarr, we were ALL thrown out like a sack of trash. That is what happens. You'll figure it out... you're still early on! I really, really admire the men on this forum... you guys are a different breed, for sure!! Pat yourselves on the back.... Like all LBS, we look good to the rest of the world (once they get over their uncomfortableness of us not seeking revenge on our sick spouses, LOL!!). You bring a lot to the table, and I'm glad there are more men here now to support the others..... OP used to be the lone Rooster here, hahaha!!
Glad to see you postin, Rookie! ;)
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Thanks LG, and I agree with ALL being thrown out like a sack of trash! exactly how I felt some 3 yrs ago! lol
AnneJ is right on the money with her post and when LBS's get to the 3 yr point or so ( or further) you will see her post to be exactly true.
I agree we will/do look strong,powerful, intimidating, and HAPPY to them to the point it does frustrate them even more. It's true they no longer call the shots on anything! And it appears ( at least in my case) that they will find someone in which they can call the shots with which of course will also be short lived.
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Someone once said that there was no better revenge than success.
I am not saying that we are seeking revenge, because I have no desire for any kind of retribution, I really want my wife to be happy with or without me, but the way to combat the way we feel (at being dumped) is to be happy, successful and not affected by monster.
Once MLC sees a happy successful person they start to think......why would I leave that person? Maybe they can do without me? Maybe someone else is going to take them?
Was I as valuable to them as I thought or maybe I needed them more than they needed me?
I am sure they will start to think all those things as they search for an answer.
Clearly looking at a sad, dejected person is not going to make them want to consider coming back to you. Or anybody else to find you an attractive companion.
Wear a smile, have bounce in your step, always be pleasant, look at the world through those rose coloured spectacles. See what a huge difference it makes. See how many people find you attractive and approachable with that kind of outlook.
I tell you your inner mood shows on the outside. I know sometimes it can be hard but with practice it becomes easy. Lighten up.
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But I think what so many people are saying here is that mentally and emotionally they CAN'T move on until they cut that invisible rope that is STANDING for their marriage.
Yes, this is a psychological barrier for some. Though Standing and moving on are not separate and mutually exclusive concepts, many people can only understand them and do them separately.
Standing to me always meant putting him first. And I can't do that, I just can't.
Well I hope not! You know intelectually that is not what Standing is about, but what will it take for you to accept that emotionally? You don’t have to, but what you want Standing to be—about putting your Self first, that is what it is. Yes, the purpose and motivation come from the marital crisis and there is a goal of reconciliation or at the least a putting aside of the decision to end the marriage and consider reconciliation if the opportunity presents itself. But the way to get it to present itself as a valid opportunity is by putting Self first.
I believe that being Self-Centered is a great thing! It is a process of self-centering which is to become balanced within Self. To be selfish is completely different. Selfish is choosing what you want at the expense of others, being centered within Self is about becoming a whole and healthy person.
The only thing I don't buy is the double standard that MLCers can do anything while standers sit back and try to become the person their MLCer wanted while patiently waiting.
I was patient during my Stand, but I was not waiting. Some may have said my life was on hold since I was not dating. Well, Grandpa died in 1992 and Gram has not dated since, but few people would say she put her life on hold. Dating and having a romantic partnership is not the end all and be all of life.
STANDING for your MARRIAGE is an anchor in your journey to yourself, I don't see how it can't be.
Anchor is such an intersting term. When Sweetheart worked at the family business he had the nickname Anchor. He apprenticed for a few years and then finaly left the store and worked on his own while putting himself through college. But the others—some were cousins, some were not family members—meant the nickname as an insult; he weighed them down. The name still follows him. If he goes into the store even now someone will likely greet him with hi Anch. He came out almost in tears to me as I waited in the car one day. The person wasn’t trying to tease—I don’t think so at least.
But when I mentioned the nickname to my Mom without relaying the story details she automatically assumed it was a positive name of strength. When the crisis started my Dad said I was a rick—implying strenght. I’m a swimmer, rocks are not good when swimming!
So Standing for your marriage may be an anchor in your journey. It may be the anchor that gives you stability and consistency or it may be the anchor that keeps you from moving forward and weighs you down.
You get to choose which anchor it will be.
I have given alot of thought about how or why we would need to change ourselves if this is really all about the MLCer. Common sense would dictate that we would need to stay true to ourselves as they should want to return to their old lives once they come out of this. But, I've been communicating with another LBSer on here who is divorced already and his perspective is that we change almost like the MLCer is changing in that we take on new hairstyles, clothes, habits and such so that they will notice us and not associate us with their old selves as much. That makes sense to me. I have no interest in changing what I like about myself just because my wife used that as an excuse to do what she did.
Change is an inevitable part of living. But why would you try to change what you like—unless you are chaning to something you like even more? It is a natural part of the process to start out by trying to make changes either according to the MLCers demands or to entice the MLCer. Maintaining that as the purpose is unhealthy, but doing it in the beginning is just a normal part of people cope and it can get them to the point where they change for their own Selves. There is also tha benefit that often changes meant to attract the MLCer are those the person likes about their new Self. Each person will choose to drop some of the changes, but it is a time of Self-discovery and sometimes you’ve got to try new things to discover whether you like them.
But if you resist changing because you stubbornly refuse to do something because it is what someone else wants, you are missing out on an opportunity to discover some new things—and you will like some of those things if you accept rather than resist.
Being true to your Self is being true within the changes you make and keep. It doesn’t mean you refuse to change.
For heaven's sake, she told me she disliked 95% about me. How would I change that much?
And you are giving credibility to an MLCer why…?
She also told D10 that she was divorcing me because I liked Britney Spears.
Sweetheart and the alienator were well-matched because neither likes steak. I can’t figure out the complain regarding me because though I like it we don’t buy it and we’ve only been to steakhouse once, wait, twice, but on one of those occasions I only got soup. One of the repeated complaints that I think originated at the midlifewive’s club and it’s book How to Survive Your Husband’s Midlife Crisis was that the MLCer is leaving because you bought bagged salad.
That sort of irrelevant complaint is part of the script.
I was also told that my hair was too frizzy and he liked straight hair.
Well complain to God then!
Though I must admit I did discover antifrizz serums and now I can manage the curls—but I don’t use it to straighten—tried once and it wouldn’t work anyway. My hair is the envy of most people and the alienator tried to tell him my hair was too frizzy too—he’d actually complained about it long before they et, so she just knew it was a weak spot.
I did not change my hair, but I did allow him to find me a product to tame it and I love it. Negotiate.
When LBS's question why they are STANDING, I confess I find it slightly amusing. I remember thinking and feeling the same way. Then one day, it dawned on me, what else could I do? I was so shell shocked, so scared, so heartbroken, I was of no use to anybody else. Whether I divorced my h that very day or waited indefinitely, I was still going to feel like "hell". There really was no other OPTION but to STAND, as I simply was in no condition to make any sort of decisions. Plus, divorcing, moving on, whatever, was not going to change the process, as there was only one way out of this and that was through the pain.
Earlier today I put this in the Coaching Archives for Gullstaff.
Suppose you stop Standing. Then what? What changes? Your wife is still gone and you are still not emotionally ready for a relationship with someone else.
People think it is Standing that takes the strength. No, it is living and you really do need to go on living. Whether you Stand or not, your situation is the same. You still need to detach and heal. I advocate Standing while doing that because it helps to protect your love and I believe it leads to Forgiveness more readily than not Standing.
You know that saying about who invested the most in breakfast, the pig or the chicken--I don't want to be the only pig in this breakfast! And that's why I admire covenant keepers and people like Synnica and LettingGo--they are willing to give everything--that's faith and I admire people who have faith, but I just don't.
Covenant Keepers is a Biblical group and thus they are more strict. But being a Covenant Keeper does not mean you will reconcile with your spouse if the opportunity presents itself. It means you will honor your marriage vows by not remarrying until your spouse dies—literally, being dead in your eyes doesn’t count. A covenant keeper may choose to no loner be in a realtionship with their spouse—think domestic violence—but will also choose to not take another mate as a part of the vow to forsake all others.
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well said Freddygone. I'm glad I read your posted, it lifted my spirits. I too want my ex to be happy. I told her that several times - said 'why wouldn't I want you to be happy WITH or WITHOUT me?' And like you said freddy, and I'll use the lighthouse analogy someone here made, being happy yourself may show the MLC what happiness really is and isn't - be the lighthouse!
And I surely think when the MLCer sees us pulling away, they just may follow. Just like how we push them away at times when we don’t detach, try to contact them, try to talk about the R and M - stuff like that. You push, they pull. You pull, they may push.
I'm often confused at what some people view as standing and moving on - I don't think it has to be one of the other. I think moving on can be standing - thought I don't think moving on with someone else should be the definition of moving on. And there shouldn't be someone else if you truly haven't moved on. I've had some very casual dating but I don't think anyone else deserves to get hurt by the MLC. Especially not by us if we're not ready to start a new relationship.
I talked about this in IC tonight, prompted by this post actually…which is why I suppose I’m babbling.
And whatever the situation, we need to MOVE ON with our lives, whatever the outcome and be happy either way. Success stories aren't and shouldn't be about successful reconciliation. They can include them, but shouldn’t be limited to them.
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And whatever the situation, we need to MOVE ON with our lives, whatever the outcome and be happy either way. Success stories aren't and shouldn't be about successful reconciliation. They can include them, but shouldn't be limited to them.
This is the point I have been trying to make since I joined this forum. Success is not determined by whether we RECONCILE! When we begin this journey, our goal is to save our marriages. As we learn and grow, our goals become more refined. We want our marriages but ONLY if it can be a better marriage, happier, mutually fullfilling. Time and much thought, which is something we LBS's do a lot of, begins to expose the "cracks" in the marriages/relationships we thought we had. Either that, or as time goes on, we change so much we realize that what we once had, will simply not "cut it anymore".
As much as most of us have HATED this time, "time" is becoming that wonderful gift that OP always talks about. If we use it wisely we learn so much about ourselves and our lives. Quite honestly, it wasn't my husband who made me devote too much time into my family, home and little into myself, it was ME. I am the one who IMPOSED this behavior on myself. Time has shown me the truth about myself, it was nobodies fault, it was an evolution that at the time probably was needed for the benefit of the family but like most things, I took it to the extreme. I virtually IMPRISONED myself, trying to be "everything to everybody". Self inflicted, self imposed!
Our MLC'er did the same thing, trapped themselves into a certain role and now are trying to brake out of it. How long we would have continued our self imposed martyrdom if our spouse had not gone "nuts" and pried us out of our comfort zone. No way of knowing. The genie is out of the bottle, she can't be stuffed back in. It is onward and hopefully upward for most, as the alternate is "death" or "stagnation"... not an option in most cases.
In my OPINION, success is gauged by where we are at the end of this. Are we happy? Did we find an alternate life, maybe not better but much better suited for who we are now? SAVING our marriage is not the ONLY GAME in town. The main GAME in my opinion is US, how we FEEL about ourselves in a year, 2 years... hell, 10 years down the road. What did we do with this situation?
You hit the nail right on the head Standing4Myself. Reconciliation is not the only sign of SUCCESS! To limit our possibilities after undergoing this grueling process would be tragic. To deny ourselves the option of abandoning our STAND for our marriage is unrealistic, too restrictive. WE have been forced down this road, forced to take this journey, the least we can do is CONSIDER all our options and choose what is BEST for ourselves. We owe ourselves happiness and whatever form that takes, is SUCCESS.
hugs Stayed
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Very true S4M and Stayed ... I agree with that, and I am coming now to the point of being able to say that I am happy within myself, I am a strong person, and I know that my future will be good no matter what my H chooses to do. My happiness comes from within myself, living to my values and giving my love and time to others, and myself too. In the past I maybe forgot myself and later resented this not being recognised, mainly by my H. Today will be a great day, and tomorrow is looking good, the future will take care of itself, and I do not worry about that now. I think my journey has been successful, and its not over yet, I will do more than survive, I will flourish.
Got my rose coloured specs Freddygone!!
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What a brilliant statement Stayed.
There are so many wonderful points shared on this Forum, it is better than any therapy.
There is so much we learn, but this point about this experience allowing us to break free from OUR prison is so true.
If we look around at so many married couples that are in a mundane routine, following the same track but not knowing why....they often hold contempt for teir partners and feel trapped.
We have been given a gift, yes a gift, of being able to see reality and any new relationship will be blessed by what we have learnt.
I know this was a painful experience, but I am so much better for having had the experience. I am a better person and I am no longer trapped, sad or attached. I am FREE.
My Rose coloured spectacles are firmly in place. Even my poor wife looks lovely but very, very stressed and troubled. They don't understand, but if we have the opportunity, we can explain what we learnt. But now is not the time.
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Rose coloured specs in place and never being taken off again.
You know folks, however this turns out, we are are going to have a BRAND NEW RELATIONSHIP! The old one/ones are dead!
I have no regrets either Freddygone... none whatsover!
hugs Stayed
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This goes back a few posts, but it is something I often think about.
What stayed said about it being no easier to have a new r with our spouses than to have one with someone else, and on balance, I'd choose to do the work with my spouse, given the opportunity.
That can be the other way around as well: no easier to have a new r with someone else than to have a new r with our spouses...... they'd be different, to be sure, but on balance my feelings are the same. It's a lot of work either way.