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Author Topic: Discussion Standing vs Moving On

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Discussion Re: Standing vs Moving On
#100: September 08, 2011, 12:25:53 PM
OK - I am sort of going off on a complete tangent here, but having seen some recent interactions of H on fb (we are not friends but have some mutual friends who he sometimes, well rarely, interacts with) that are definitely of the teenage variety, I keep wondering HOW is it that the alienators do not notice how juvenile our MLCers behaviours are? I just don't get it! Do they think it is normal for people in their mid to late 30s to use lots of teenage vocabulary and endless smilely faces (like a 14 year old?).  I saw something H had posted and the way it was written struck me as odd and I couldnt explain why until I realised it was written in the manner that his 15 year old cousin might write a note to a friend on fb - not like mature man at all.

If these MLCer display behaviours that cycle between preschool to teenage behviour, how does ANOTHER adult, presumably not in MLC, not notice how bizarre some of the MLCer's interactions are for a middle aged person?

Sorry, hijacking my own discussion topic here, but if anyone can suggest a plausible reason?
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Nina Simone

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Re: Standing vs Moving On
#101: September 08, 2011, 12:45:54 PM
This is clear, and what I have seen is that the other adult is also in MLC too. I think this is why some of these replays last so long is that when two people both in MLC interact the process is almost feeding itself.
My wife and the OM wear some crazy stuff, you should listen to the music CD's he produces and she listens to. She would never listen to this juvenile stuff and they do look ridiculously scruffy. The way they speak and laugh at other people when clearly it is them that are rediculous. Maybe it takes to MLC's to tango?
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Re: Standing vs Moving On
#102: September 08, 2011, 12:50:14 PM
We've also seen so many embarrassing 'tweenage' behaviours - some have disappeared, some come and go.
The worst stage would have had to have been the crude 'humour' - my previously gentlemanly H turned into a douche bag, as our eldest son now calls him.  Not good!

I too have scratched my head over how the OW can't notice.  Not sure if they all are in MLC or if some just never grow up.
I think so many of them are so dysfunctional, desperate and needy, they go along with whatever because this rubbish is better than the alternative (which is to be without our H's) in their eyes.
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« Last Edit: September 08, 2011, 12:51:55 PM by kikki »

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Re: Standing vs Moving On
#103: September 08, 2011, 12:55:14 PM
If the alienator is younger, then it's not MLC... it's just psychological immaturity. My husband said very early on that his OW was "Extremely immature" and the other day told me I gave her too much credit if I thought she was manipulating him because "she's not a deep thinker"... the whole R between the two of them is socially and psychologically immature... they are both spiritually and emotionally void, so there is that vacuum to fill.... they don't recognize it in each other because they are so self absorbed and equal in their immaturity. MLCers typically are naive about manipulations, particularly when it comes from females... they just cannot believe she isn't just hopelessly and forever IN LOVE with him.... like a tragic love story where they have no choice but to go on without one another "because of society".

If the alienator isn't younger, then it MIGHT be MLC, or just an immature person with "issues". People who aren't self aware just bounce along in life like billiard balls on a table... my husband was always like that... thought that it was LIFE, and not his choices that caused him problems.
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Lao Tsu

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Re: Standing vs Moving On
#104: September 08, 2011, 01:04:23 PM
OK - I am sort of going off on a complete tangent here, but having seen some recent interactions of H on fb (we are not friends but have some mutual friends who he sometimes, well rarely, interacts with) that are definitely of the teenage variety, I keep wondering HOW is it that the alienators do not notice how juvenile our MLCers behaviours are? I just don't get it! Do they think it is normal for people in their mid to late 30s to use lots of teenage vocabulary and endless smilely faces (like a 14 year old?).  I saw something H had posted and the way it was written struck me as odd and I couldnt explain why until I realised it was written in the manner that his 15 year old cousin might write a note to a friend on fb - not like mature man at all.

If these MLCer display behaviours that cycle between preschool to teenage behviour, how does ANOTHER adult, presumably not in MLC, not notice how bizarre some of the MLCer's interactions are for a middle aged person?

Sorry, hijacking my own discussion topic here, but if anyone can suggest a plausible reason?

Because the OW/OM is very imature, because they are in a midlife crisis, because they have regressive behavior, because of the social group they belong to. Like you I'm not friends with my Husband on FB but we share some mutual friends + my SIL. Husband and OW2 (she is about to turn 36)  look like silly teenagers in their comments. My amazement is not about husband and OW but about my SIL. I'm not so much amazed of some of the friends (well, in reality acquaintances). How came my SIL does not get that husband (her brother) life is a teenager life? And that OW2 must be a bit childish for a age? Maybe become my husband become a bit successful in his new, DJ-party boy, new life. All that glitter and la-la-la land and "oh, you're the man" can make people go ga-ga.

OW1 (29 when the affair begun) I think let herself fall for the "unhappy" married man. She was more mommy type. Very caring and sweet. Also, of course, dazed with is "success".

LG, I think its that, psychological immaturity. Still, why does my SIL finds all that normal?... She was always a balanced person...
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Re: Standing vs Moving On
#105: September 08, 2011, 02:14:27 PM
AnneJ,

I am guessing your SIL is not seeing it because she simply does not want her B to have a "problem". My H's family all know (without  a shadow of doubt) that he is in a crisis and they still defend some of his behaviour as if his choices are rational. So if people who are not in denial about their relative's problems find it hard to comprehend, someone who denies seeing the problem (because they can't admit that their loved one has faults/problems that might run deep) will refuse to see it any way but the way that suits...

Thanks for responding to my hijack everyone. It makes sense - H's OW is in her mid 20s, so too young for MLC, but undoubtedly immature and definitely with issues...
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Re: Standing vs Moving On
#106: September 08, 2011, 02:21:09 PM
Part of my LBS journey took me to a website called baggereclaim.com - it is a site for OW who are in 'recovery' because they recognise the destructive nature of relationships with attached men.

In it's archives it has a piece about what makes the OW an OW - and it boils down to low self esteem, denial of issues, accepting crumbs and a complete and utter lack of boundaries and self respect.

it's a very informative site and focusses on emtionally healthy relationships with emtionally available men - which is a great message for LBS everywhere - where you're standing fr your marriage or moving on.

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Re: Standing vs Moving On
#107: September 08, 2011, 03:26:56 PM
Rachel continued to read this thread after I posted her email and when I responded to your responses. She sent me this response for posting.
 
Dear Kindred Souls,
 
I think I understand why my letter was so upsetting to some of you. I received Thundarr’s original post from RCR via email.
[Actually it was StandandDeliver'spost, Reply #12]
I read it out of context. I did not have much time, and chose not to read the rest of this thread before responding. I forgot, for a moment, to remember and state clearly how much pain my H and I went through. Maybe this would have made reading my post a little easier.
 
Our D experience occurred over nine-months. By the end of that process we did truly believe that our children would be “better off” with happier, more fulfilled parents… Just like SO many others have come to believe in this crazy divorce culture. This “belief” may be one of the biggest reasons that most of the 80% of unilateral divorces occur….bc the Leaving Spouse has bought into this tragic myth. Just like we did. I know many of you were angry, reading about that in our experience. But I felt very sad to read your responses to my letter –many, as RCR says “casting stones”—in my direction, if even inadvertently. Obviously, given our reconciliation, we don’t believe that stuff anymore…I was trying to explain our experience to you because RCR asked me if I’d like to give more clarity about what happened to us. I decided to write in hopes of giving more info and perspective from _reconcilers_. We did reconcile. We learned. We changed. I am one of those few.
 
What can I say that will inspire you to ask me questions, or feel moved to read ALL my blog posts? With those posts, I try my best to articulate the things we have learned that made our reconciliation possible.  Very few reconcilers are out there writing and researching …I’m SOO grateful to RCR for her work. But there are not many of us doing this. From reading this thread, it seems there are far too few reconciliations. I’m working to find the magic bullet to change that.  It’s why I’m starting to work with RCR and others on the  Coalition for Divorce Reform.
 
I have educated myself deeply about our divorce culture, and that culture now makes me so upset. It drives most of what I do… People flee thinking they will become more fulfilled, when it fact, the opposite is almost certainly what will happen. I am like you. I felt enormous pain when my husband partnered with another woman…even though she was my friend, and even though I had “condoned” it and thought I supported it. Even though we had an amicable divorce that we had finally –through much work and pain—decided mutually, that we wanted.  But there was still great pain. And it has taken a lot of work for me to be close to the OW, my friend, again. But it has been so worth it.
 
Now, I spend *every* free moment working to educate and inform people not only about the risks of divorce, but about the universal urge to flee a marriage when personal needs are not getting met. And it is also true that understanding human biology and sexuality has totally healed our angst and pain, in a way that nothing else came close to doing. I share this very clearly with people in pain and struggling with infidelity because it totally changed our marriage and healing. That discussion of sexuality is part of what made my first letter so uncomfortable for many, I think. I’m not saying anything about condoning non-monogamy, but I am saying monogamy is very hard and it goes against our own biology. Knowing that makes understanding people’s humanity a lot easier for me. But in all honesty, it took me—a biologist by training-- a year of processing and working with the information, before I could achieve that level of healing. 
 
I rarely spend a lot of time writing blog responses like this, because I’m so focused on using the little bit of  time I have to write blog posts and my memoir. I am hopeful those will make a wider impact—reaching the very spouses who have left people like the ones here, and maybe, inspiring those spouses to return. I am trying to make a difference, to help. After reading through all your responses, after my initial sadness at reading some of the stones being thrown at my letter--my heart upwelled with such tenderness and love for all of you and your pain and I felt called to write a more explanatory, heartfelt letter.
 
I’ve been deferring any paid work for more than 2 years; our family has been managing on my husband’s salary, specifically so I can work on the blog, or working on the memoir. This, while being a full-time stay-at-home mom. My whole GOAL is to shift this culture away from divorce. Jesus is one of my heroes. He was one our greatest teachers and lovers of understanding, inner peace, compassion, forgiveness, and unconditional love. I don’t have shame, blame, or resentment anymore, in part, bc of his  lessons. I have forgiven myself and my husband, because I understand what happened, and how human we were, and how we were doing the best we could with what we had at the time. As we all are always doing.
 
With love, peace, and hope to you all for the love you want, Rachel
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Re: Standing vs Moving On
#108: September 08, 2011, 06:27:04 PM
AnneJ,

I am guessing your SIL is not seeing it because she simply does not want her B to have a "problem". My H's family all know (without  a shadow of doubt) that he is in a crisis and they still defend some of his behaviour as if his choices are rational. So if people who are not in denial about their relative's problems find it hard to comprehend, someone who denies seeing the problem (because they can't admit that their loved one has faults/problems that might run deep) will refuse to see it any way but the way that suits...


If the resons is my SIL not wanting to see her B has a problem I wonder what would it takes for her to see a problem with him... I don't know what she knows or does not know. I mean, what he has told her and the rest of his family, except that we were separated (that was 5 years ago). But if one of my brothers would drop by my house, has he did with is S, with a woman I did not know, after spending 20 years with someone, I would thought something was wrong. Add to that all the crazy behavior that followed, OW2 and so on...and it is hard to ignore that something is going on with him...Still...maybe she does not want to see because it is too painful.
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Re: Standing vs Moving On
#109: September 08, 2011, 07:50:10 PM
Thank you for your reply to this thread, Rachel.... I really appreciate it! I also appreciate that your point of view has shifted.... we all have skeletons in our closet and hopefully have learned from our mistakes...for instance, I have had inappropriate relationships when I was much younger and didn't give it a second thought, though I never considered myself to be "hopelessly in love" with a married man with children... not sure I could have gone THERE... I was also married and divorced once before, amicable, with no children, yet I still saw the devastation and deep disappointment it caused for my ex husband and in laws... again, learned from my mistakes.

Can you tell me if you or your husband were children of divorced or blended families and how that influenced your decisions, if at all? I know that my husband and I both seem to have a PATHOLOGICAL desire to keep our family intact, which is weird, given his MLC compulsion to abandon us and consideration at one time early on to divorce... It's our own way of "doing over" that part of our childhoods....

Thanks again for your reply....
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The softest of stuff in the world penetrates quickly the hardest insubstantial. It enters where no room is...

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