Midlife Crisis: Support for Left Behind Spouses
Archives => Archived Topics => Topic started by: Affaircare on November 08, 2011, 01:41:26 PM
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Lately I have been having a major problem with a few posts and where they are heading, and I am concerned that I'm the only one seeing it.
MLC'ers may indeed be addicted to the "zing" of an affair or may be in MLC fog and seem to not be themselves, but what I'm hearing is almost a "it's all THEM and THEY have the issue--I'm fine" kind of tone. I know it may not be popular or easy to hear, but a marriage is TWO individuals in intimate relation with each other, and somewhere along the line it may have been working great for you, but it wasn't working so great for your spouse! You wouldn't want to be in a relationship that was misery for you but "perfect" for your spouse--and somewhere along the road you might hope that they would care that it's not working for you. And yes, some MLC'ers may be in "fog" and may have re-written history, but to say that it's all "THEM" and "THEIR issues" is just ignoring the toothpick in your own eye to point out the toothpick in theirs.
Again I do realize it is hard to hear, and I realize it even may hurt to hear, but even if it was sheer heavenly bliss for you, if it wasn't sheer heavenly bliss for your spouse then there is an issue and you BOTH need to address it, not just them. Very, VERY often an MLC'er will say something like "I haven't been happy for years" and what they mean is that resentment has slowly been building over the years until it became intolerable (crisis). However, the LBS will look at photos from Christmas 9 months ago and say "S/He was all smiles! LOOK! They were happy! They've just re-written history to justify!" but in reality, the nine months also included nightly fighting, ignoring each other, coming and going and barely seeing each other, the LBS saying snipey hurtful things, turning the cold shoulder to each other, being demanding or controlling or manipulative, ignoring each other's physical needs, etc. So it's not 100% "re-written history"--there really and truly was something wrong for those 9 months but the LBS looks at the pictures as proof "they were happy" and just goes on to dismiss everything the MLC'er says!!!
So ultimately it is up to you to decide. You can choose to put all the blame on your MLC'er (just like they are doing to you) and say "they have a mental disorder" and "we only have to work on ourselves because we didn't love ourselves enough" and close your eyes. OR you can consider that a small portion of what the MLC'er said has a point. FOR THEM things were not hunky dory and they had very bad skills to communicate that to you. FOR THEM what you were doing to them hurt them deeply until eventually they hit an inner crisis point. FOR THEM it was bad enough to consider doing what they know is wrong and what makes them internally ILL. And yes a person in MLC does blameshift, does experience fog, and does justify--but the reason you work on yourself is because of the small percentage of what an MLC'er says that really is true. You work on yourself to stop thinking of your spouse as an extension of you and view them as an entirely separate and equal individual who may well be 100% DIFFERENT than you--and to stop treating someone you say you love with the cold shoulder, fighting and blaming of your own.
If you just dismiss what the MLC'er says, then you would be doing exactly what you accuse them of: blaming someone else and not having the courage to face YOURSELF. So for those of you who are LBS's here, I lay down a challenge. Rather than looking at your MLC'er and thinking, "Wow they are a mess" and then listing all their disorders and personal issues, think about what they said and ask yourself "What part of this holds a kernel of truth? What do I need to learn as a person or hear as a partner from this?" The way you chose to treat them in the past may not have been nearly as bad as what they say or claim, but what would happen if your MLC'er said, "You ALWAYS try to make me go shopping" (using hyper's example--thanks hyper) and you said "Hmm...so it sounds like you feel like I try to force you to do stuff. Is that how it seems to you?" WHOA! You just "heard" them and you didn't say they were right or wrong or anything....just asked what it seemed like in their world! Because as much as your world and how it seems is "real" to you--their world and how it seems is "real" to them!
Anyway, I'm sure this will be interesting and I'm expecting some flame but I'm ready. Let's discuss.
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Please let me give you a high five!
This is what I always thought the forums were about!
hugs, L
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Affair
I am not offended or upset in the slightest by your awareness of the "blame game" that is exhibited around here. Yes at times I too can easily blame my H but the truth of the matter is that "we" got to this place because of "our" actions or lack of actions. We failed to do our part to make the other partner heard and followed thru on their feelings and perceptions of our faults/shortcomings. It is so very easy to place blame on the MLC spouse that has left or stayed at home. But I know I contributed to this crisis. There are alot of things I am learning to do differently in regards to my H and our marriage. Change can be very hard but I love my H and myself enough to make the changes that will bring true happiness and a sense of self awareness. I now realize that I cannot and should not expect my husband to make me happy and complete me. That was selfish of me to put that kind of pressure on him.
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Quoting Affaircare:
"FOR THEM what you were doing to them hurt them deeply until eventually they hit an inner crisis point. FOR THEM it was bad enough to consider doing what they know is wrong and what makes them internally ILL"
You've written that whatever we did hurt them badly enough to hit an inner crisis point. How would that account for the single person who has an MLC? That presumes it takes two to tango and I'm sorry but I don't believe that is true 100% of the time. Maybe 1% or maybe 99% but not 100%.
And what do I take from the statements my H has made over and over again that I haven't done anything to hurt him, ever and that these are his internal issues about failure and fears of aging and so forth?
I'm sorry...I'm not trying to flame. I don't think its bad to analyze but I just don't agree with this in all the cases.
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This is very well said. MLCers are not the only ones capable of rewriting history, denial, and projecting their issues onto others. And the fact that the MLCer is in an obvious crisis can make it easier to do so.
Just as our spouses bring their issues and emotional baggage into the marriage (not even counting MLC!), so do we. I suspect there are a large percentage of readers and posters who could admit to control and codependency issues, abandonment issues, and victim identity issues. I'm starting to think that if an LBS doesn't actually see a counselor of their own, they are missing an opportunity to heal themselves.
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SS I agree with you too.
BonBon,
ANY happening or change os some sort can spin someone into a crisis...My h's for example was his father having a heart attack...
We as their spouses, take the brunt of the blame for their unhappiness...or their significant other...I would tend to believe because we are the closest people to them
HUgs,
L
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Hi AC
Infidelity is a terrible thing, whether the cheating spouse is in an MLC or not. However, I've always thought if there is a bright spot from the whole ugly mess it's the opportunity to address any shortcomings that have been brought to the forefront by an affair. If these things do get addressed, then the recovered relationship gets better than either party had believed is possible.
Also I think the offending spouse learns (the hard way) that going out to find somebody else is no way to solve their problems.
What you are saying isn't wrong just be careful how you say it. Some spouses really are near-perfect and still get cheated on.
If I find my suspicions are right and my H is interested in an OW I am willing to look inside and see what I could've done better.
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Very interesting post here Affaircare. My own theory is that MLC is caused primarily by the MLCer's personal issues, but that once BD occurs it is a prime time for us as LBSers to look at ourselves and our role within the relationship. What do we need to improve about ourselves? What can we do to improve the dynamic within our relationship? Because you are right, none of us is perfect. We all have issues, and perhaps we never would have faced them unless forced to. That being said, I think if a MLC is brewing, it would happen even if the MLCer was married to "the perfect spouse."
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"FOR THEM what you were doing to them hurt them deeply until eventually they hit an inner crisis point. FOR THEM it was bad enough to consider doing what they know is wrong and what makes them internally ILL"
You've written that whatever we did hurt them badly enough to hit an inner crisis point. How would that account for the single person who has an MLC? That presumes it takes two to tango and I'm sorry but I don't believe that is true 100% of the time. Maybe 1% or maybe 99% but not 100%.
Where does Affaircare state that MLC is always the fault of the other spouse? There is nothing in her post that suggests that. Maybe you should re-read the original post, especially the part where she said "OR you can consider that a small portion of what the MLC'er said has a point."
And what do I take from the statements my H has made over and over again that I haven't done anything to hurt him, ever and that these are his internal issues about failure and fears of aging and so forth?
He may very well be telling the truth; that doesn't invalidate what Affaircare said.
I'm sorry...I'm not trying to flame. I don't think its bad to analyze but I just don't agree with this in all the cases.
And Affaircare wasn't implying that it was true in all cases. Nothing that we discuss is 100% true in all cases, otherwise would wouldn't be making distinctions such as "Vanisher", "Clinging Boomerang", "High-energy MLCer", "Low energy MLCer", or all of the shades in between; there would just be this monolithic syndrome called "Midlife Crisis".
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Affaircare
I like the title of the thread, as I agree the MLCer is not the enemy. My issue, however, is that I get the impression you are very closely relating MLC to a lack of communication, and other issues, in the marriage. I'm not so on board with that. MLC is caused by a lack of development from an earlier time in life. MLCers lack coping skills. Most LBS are more than willing to work on the marriage. The MLCer is not. Not even close. MLCers have the Urge to Abandon. MLCers run.
From Affaircare
"And yes, some MLC'ers may be in "fog" and may have re-written history"
This applies to more than some MLCers, it applies to virtually all. They are symptomatic of MLC.
From RCR's article Midlife Crisis Takes Time
"Though no one is perfect, in the beginning you will search your own behaviour for what went wrong. Since the MLCer often offers a long list of your transgressions, it is not a difficult search. In the beginning, many LBS's accept this blame, using it as the excuse for the bad marriage. For many experiencing this crisis in their marriage, there was no bad marriage. Though nothing is perfect, many problems were not significant enough to warrant danger. The problem is the Midlife Crisis."
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DGU,
I also strongly agree with you about the coping skills...MLC have MANY issues, but I do believe this may just be the one that cause an issue to turn into FULL BLOWN CRISIS!
hugs,
L
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Affaircae, there is a big difference between saying it is not the LBS fault and that the MCLer is the enemy. The enemy, if there is one, is the MCLer unbalanced brain/emotional umbalance/hormonal change. And the worst enemy of an MCLer is the MCLer itself.
It may be so that, in normal affairs, both parts have a fault to a certain degree but in MLC don’t think so.
“You wouldn't want to be in a relationship that was misery for you but "perfect" for your spouse--and somewhere along the road you might hope that they would care that it's not working for you.”
No, but I never notice that our marriage was misery for my husband nor that he ever though it was not working. Only a few months before BD (when he was already involved with OW1) did he star talking of how he thought the marriage was not working. However, he never gave any reason why it was not working. Only that he needed to be free, he needed space and be life by himself. Before that he was always happy with our marriage. Actually, after he left, he said he had always loved to be married and that it was He and his issues, not me. That he was the one that had not know how to solve his issues.
“FOR THEM things were not hunky dory and they had very bad skills to communicate that to you. FOR THEM what you were doing to them hurt them deeply until eventually they hit an inner crisis point. FOR THEM it was bad enough to consider doing what they know is wrong and what makes them internally ILL.”
Well, it was their inability to communicate or look for help (doctor, therapist) that lead them to the crisis. The LBS does not have a magic wand to read into their minds. And If they look happy and all smiley the Christmas before, one more reason to the LBS not to be aware there is something wrong with them. And what is the time between Christmas and BD as been just like all the other times of many years or marriage? Laughter, joy, some fighting (all couples fight, that is hardly a reason for MLC), not ignoring each other physical needs? If nothing was different?...
But sometimes we do see something is wrong with them, will ask them to tell us, to go see a doctor. They have told us they are not happy with themselves, we try to help, to listen. It still does not work. The MCLer will find AW/OM, get all infatuated and things just go downhill from then on. I did notice something was wrong wih my husband (so did he, he said he was depressed), and so did his company doctor. I and the doctor tried to make him say why he was not well/happy and to convice in to see a therapist/took medication. He never explained why he was not happy, did not accept counsel or medication. Hardly my fault, I would say…
Can’t see what I was doing to hurt him that took him into crisis and OW, except taking good care of hi. Besides, he himself told me it was not I but he. And he told me so again after OW1 was no more.
Their world my be real to them but it certainly is not the real world of the couple of the marriage. Their vision of the relationship is impaired. They are not on their normal self.
It is not a case of working on ourselves because we did not love ourselves enough. I did love, and still do, love myself enough. And yes, they have a mental disorder. Even if temporary.
Otherwise they would be like all those people that have normal affairs and not MCLers.
As for treating them with the cold shoulder, it comes a point when after you keep treating them with all your love, but all you go back is kicks and monster that, for your own sake, with do need to detach and let them be.
Given that all the parts of what he said had to do with him not being happy and it was not my fault but his not much I can come up with…The only thing he said that could have me though was his “I though you no longer loved me”. When asked why dis he though that the reply was “I don’t know, I just thought you did not loved me anymore.” One does not have much to work with, does one?...This is not to say I do not have flaws, I do. But my flaws were the same they always had been since 20 years ago. So were his. I did not a MLC nor an affair, he did.
As for the “you’re always trying to make me go shopping” that is a very, very childish, not to say silly reason for someone to have an affair, let alone a MLC.
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AC, MLC is real, yes everybody who is married for years has some types of "issues" with each other. A could shoulder, a rant etc a few times a year or more.
That is a GOOD reason to get up and leave and abandoned kids, homes, drain bank accounts, relive the teenage years???. And then try and cling to us for more advice and assistance?
There's divorce reasons ( alcoholics, abuse, drugs, continous cheating, etc, etc.) and then there just plain old MLC and rewriting history is real in them.
Explain the 22 yr old girlfriend or boyfriend or the dumpster diving they do. You CANNOT miss MLC behavior vs a bad marriage behavior. That you can trust.
Want a good laugh, google MLC for dummies as the blue print for this mess is all there.
To me, it seems you have taken to heart from you spouse the knit pick'n things we all were told of why they wern't happy for "years" lol.
Sorry, I was not a saint, but definitely a decent H and good dad to the kids. Ex went off the deep end and trust me, even her own family saw it.
If you read posts here, you have to see how crazy and back and forth etc the spouse is. NOT many here will tell you that the spouse is stable and doing fine! Lol. Just MY 2 cents :)
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Ill jump in here...
I firmly believe in MY case...That I DID have alot to do with Honey's crisis..Sorry, but Thats what I believe..I think that OUR personal issues played a part in HIS pain.
I think the issues got to be to much, he felt overwhelmed by work, family, money..etc.
But for 2 years...I didnt sleep in the same bed with him, he openly told me that he would cry when he left for work..because he missed me so much..I AM to blame for that.
NO R is perfect and NO ONE is perfect...There is NO perfect marriage. so to say you had a wonderful, blissful marriage...Would seem a little far fetched to me but that is just my .02
The crisis may have been started long before issues came to light...but there must be some validity to what most if not all say at BD.
My H also told me it wasnt my fault, that I was a perfect wife..giving, compassionate, and he hated doing this to me. That I did NOT deserve it...but he also cried telling me how hurtful it was to sleep alone....but did not blame his crisis on that fact.
There is always room to GROW in ones life...everyday is a journey, MLC or not.
((hugs))
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Rcr has stated that with the blame coming from the mlcer... There is a grain of truth... I had to look real deep inside me and figure out why my h didn't feel loved or had his needs met... Its there in what they tell us. Is it the cause for them making the choice to leave? No. Is it the cause for their choice to have an affair? No. But they also have very real feelings... I have apologized to my h because i grew enough to know that there were some things that i could have done differently... Better... No the communication was not there. He should have talked to me. And i was blindsided. But that doesn't negate what our spouses felt. I believe that until both spouses are able to introspect and look at their contributions to the problems that led up to them making the choice to walk away or have an affair... That you can truly not reconcile... You have to be able to meet somewhere in the middle and to learn what it is that your spouse needs... Not what u think they need.
Thank you for the thread.
OMR
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AC, MLC is real, yes everybody who is married for years has some types of "issues" with each other. A could shoulder, a rant etc a few times a year or more.
That is a GOOD reason to get up and leave and abandoned kids, homes, drain bank accounts, relive the teenage years???. And then try and cling to us for more advice and assistance?
There's divorce reasons ( alcoholics, abuse, drugs, continous cheating, etc, etc.) and then there just plain old MLC and rewriting history is real in them.
That's it. There is a bif difference in the behaviour on an MCLer and a non MCLer. Of course a rant, a lack of communication here and there, some ups and downs (things that all marriages have) are not a good reason to abandon, drain bank accounts, have a regressive and juvenile lifestyle nor the type of marriage rewriting history that MCLers do.
Like DGU said, the LBS is always willing to work on the marriage. The MCLer is not. And also, DGU is right ALL MCLers are in fog, ALL. Not just some.
There is a huge difference between a normal affair and a MLC affair, a bad marriage and MCL behaviour. In a normal affairs, most times the straying spouse is willing to work on the marriage and does not want divorce. Divorce often happens because the cheated spouse wants one. In MCL we could say it is the other way round, the MCLer is not willing to work on the marriage and wants a divorce. The cheated spouse does not wants a divorce and would like to work on the marriage.
Also, a person that in a normal affair will not desplay monster to the spouse.
And, of course, we would notice if our spouses were miserable for years, just like we notice that is something wrong with them. We always notice that there is another person even if we have no evidence of the fact. We would pick and unhappy spouse that was so for years and years on end. Don't forget that the MCLer is depressed, the judgement is clouded.
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Very, VERY often an MLC'er will say something like "I haven't been happy for years" and what they mean is that resentment has slowly been building over the years until it became intolerable (crisis). However, the LBS will look at photos from Christmas 9 months ago and say "S/He was all smiles! LOOK! They were happy! They've just re-written history to justify!" but in reality, the nine months also included nightly fighting, ignoring each other, coming and going and barely seeing each other, the LBS saying snipey hurtful things, turning the cold shoulder to each other, being demanding or controlling or manipulative, ignoring each other's physical needs, etc. So it's not 100% "re-written history"--there really and truly was something wrong for those 9 months but the LBS looks at the pictures as proof "they were happy" and just goes on to dismiss everything the MLC'er says!!!
So ultimately it is up to you to decide. You can choose to put all the blame on your MLC'er (just like they are doing to you) and say "they have a mental disorder" and "we only have to work on ourselves because we didn't love ourselves enough" and close your eyes. OR you can consider that a small portion of what the MLC'er said has a point. FOR THEM things were not hunky dory and they had very bad skills to communicate that to you. FOR THEM what you were doing to them hurt them deeply until eventually they hit an inner crisis point. FOR THEM it was bad enough to consider doing what they know is wrong and what makes them internally ILL. And yes a person in MLC does blameshift, does experience fog, and does justify--but the reason you work on yourself is because of the small percentage of what an MLC'er says that really is true. You work on yourself to stop thinking of your spouse as an extension of you and view them as an entirely separate and equal individual who may well be 100% DIFFERENT than you--and to stop treating someone you say you love with the cold shoulder, fighting and blaming of your own.
I agree with all of this so completely. I was responsible for so much that went wrong in our relationship. Many would say "no, he's to blame" but all they really know is that he up and left with OP. They don't really know what went on behind closed doors, for years. At the very least, I was responsible for not loving myself enough to live my own life and relying on him, too, much.
I came to this forum declaring all the ways I needed and wanted to change, after finally & seriously reaching out for help through a therapist but realizing I just couldn't afford it after two sessions. So, I figured a forum could possibly help. All of this is precisely why I am not ready to see him yet ( he finally asked if we could meet up ) although I would like to. I just haven't completed fixing all of my issues just yet. There are many.
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Very, VERY often an MLC'er will say something like "I haven't been happy for years" and what they mean is that resentment has slowly been building over the years until it became intolerable (crisis). However, the LBS will look at photos from Christmas 9 months ago and say "S/He was all smiles! LOOK! They were happy! They've just re-written history to justify!" but in reality, the nine months also included nightly fighting, ignoring each other, coming and going and barely seeing each other, the LBS saying snipey hurtful things, turning the cold shoulder to each other, being demanding or controlling or manipulative, ignoring each other's physical needs, etc. So it's not 100% "re-written history"--there really and truly was something wrong for those 9 months but the LBS looks at the pictures as proof "they were happy" and just goes on to dismiss everything the MLC'er says!!!
So ultimately it is up to you to decide. You can choose to put all the blame on your MLC'er (just like they are doing to you) and say "they have a mental disorder" and "we only have to work on ourselves because we didn't love ourselves enough" and close your eyes. OR you can consider that a small portion of what the MLC'er said has a point. FOR THEM things were not hunky dory and they had very bad skills to communicate that to you. FOR THEM what you were doing to them hurt them deeply until eventually they hit an inner crisis point. FOR THEM it was bad enough to consider doing what they know is wrong and what makes them internally ILL. And yes a person in MLC does blameshift, does experience fog, and does justify--but the reason you work on yourself is because of the small percentage of what an MLC'er says that really is true. You work on yourself to stop thinking of your spouse as an extension of you and view them as an entirely separate and equal individual who may well be 100% DIFFERENT than you--and to stop treating someone you say you love with the cold shoulder, fighting and blaming of your own.
I agree with all of this so completely. I was responsible for so much that went wrong in our relationship. Many would say "no, he's to blame" but all they really know is that he up and left with OP. They don't really know what went on behind closed doors, for years. At the very least, I was responsible for not loving myself enough to live my own life and relying on him, too, much.
I came to this forum declaring all the ways I needed and wanted to change, after finally & seriously reaching out for help through a therapist but realizing I just couldn't afford it after two sessions. So, I figured a forum could possibly help. All of this is precisely why I am not ready to see him yet ( he finally asked if we could meet up ) although I would like to. I just haven't completed fixing all of my issues just yet. There are many.
Star, but if you, like Syn, think you play a big part in your husband's case and that it may make sense they leave and have another person, than, why do you mind so much they left and have another person?...Sorry if I'm sounding harsh.
Syn, all marriages have wonderful parts and not so wonderful ones. I had a good marriage.
But let me tell you that if my husband would had spend two years spleeping away from me I would not need a MLC to end the marriage. Clearly, something was wrong with the marriage if that was the situation.
offmyrocker, you say "I have apologized to my h because i grew enough to know that there were some things that i could have done differently." But did he apologise to you for what he have done' I'm certain that, before the MLC he had also things he would had done differently.
It amazes me a bit that is the "offended part" that needs to look fault within and apologise and not the "offender". Let alone when they have not even come out of the crisis and are still out there doing wrong things. OK, we can look within, nothing wrong with that but to think we are the responsable ones for someone MCL, or have a great part to do with it, is going too far.
And what about the single people that have MLC and say and do all the things our spouses did (minus breaking the marriage)? Was it also someone elses fault?...I doubt...but...
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From Midlife Crisis Takes Time
"But please understand that no matter how great or small your flaws and transgressions, they are not the cause of someone else's Midlife Crisis."
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From Midlife Crisis Takes Time
"But please understand that no matter how great or small your flaws and transgressions, they are not the cause of someone else's Midlife Crisis."
Thanks, DGU. I'm totally with you on this one.
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Star, but if you, like Syn, think you play a big part in your husband's case and that it may make sense they leave and have another person, than, why do you mind so much they left and have another person?...Sorry if I'm sounding harsh.
Why do I have trouble believing this?
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Annej
no he has not. BECAUSE HE'S IN A CRISIS. You keep expecting something normal from someone who can't even figure out which side is up. If I did some things that i was sorry for... Whats the point of an apology IF YOU HAVE CONDITIONS WITH IT... So must he HAVE TO apologize because I DID? ??? Its coming... IN HIS TIME. And because i have dropped the bitterness as a way to live... I have opened the door to communications with him... He just told me that he didn't know if be can forgive himself... Can he verbalize it right now? Probably not. But if i sit there and say " u jerk, u caused all my misery" then i guess i wouldn't have grown and start to understand how this all happened. And i can tell u in my case and im sure many others... Being angry and bitter and expecting something good to come out of this WILL NEVER HAPPEN.
OMR
OMR
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Star, but if you, like Syn, think you play a big part in your husband's case and that it may make sense they leave and have another person, than, why do you mind so much they left and have another person?...Sorry if I'm sounding harsh.
Hi Annej. To me, it doesn't make sense that he went off with Op but that's just me. I don't think I could do that... 'wouldn't want to. I didn't agree with it and I didn't condone it but that was his decision. I couldn't trap him in a cage, lol. I've always had issues with jealousy and whatnot ( issues, I say! ). It was just all a mess. We were young. We didn't know any better. But I never thought, and still don't think, it's all hopeless.
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Star, but if you, like Syn, think you play a big part in your husband's case and that it may make sense they leave and have another person, than, why do you mind so much they left and have another person?...Sorry if I'm sounding harsh.
Why do I have trouble believing this?
Yeah...Anne, I don't know how you mean for it to come across, but often your posts seem deliberately provocative. It's like you keep wanting to make some sort of a point, but it is not a supportive one. Not nice.
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Affaircare, I think your post is perhaps a little "one size fits all" but from what I have read in your other posts I am sure you mean well.
When I found out about the adultery in a telephone conversation with W, my W said she was confused, "I'm confused, I am confused", she said. "No one plans for this to happen".
When she eventually came home she said, "I'm not so dependent on you now". I had no idea what she was talking about. She had her own career, bank account, income, retirement plan, successful in her career as a manager working internationally for a multi national.
She also said to our daughter, "I'm[her] not the first person for this to happen to and I'm sure I won't be the last". And to daughter, "you've had relationships, you must understand. back me in this, back me in this".
On another occasion when I asked her "why?", she said, "I think its because I don't love you any more". "Its not you its me", she said. "I've discovered myself", she said.
In hindsight the closest I can come to seeing the signs in the months before BD was one occasion when I was moaning about the work a plumber had recently done in our bathroom. I was just thinking out loud. She said, "why are you having a go at me?" I was confused and said "I'm moaning about the plumber." "it feels like you are having a go at me.", she said. My mind often goes back to that incident and think how strange it was.
I do a little running to keep fit. Before BD she told me I was obsessed with running. I wasn't obsessed with running but around that time she had joined a gym in the country in which she was working and was very enthusiast about Spinning and how much it made her sweat which was good because it helped weight loss. She was projecting her recently acquired obsession on to me.
She was coming home at weekends after BD (I had at this time learnt a little about MLC) and one evening I sat down next to her while she was watching TV. I was in such emotional agony, but after a little while I very gently said to her, "you know what you are going through is a recognised condition". Her bottom lip started to quiver and she said, "I can't help it."…"If the children ever need me you will let me know won't you?" It was emotional agony. My anguish was so intense. It just seemed like she was going into self-destruct and there was nothing I could do to help her.
So I guess I am saying she never told me she was unhappy. She never told me I was doing anything wrong before BD and she didn't tell me I had done anything wrong after BD. She told our son, "now you and your sister have grown up its time for me [her] to grow up". Therefore growing up equates to lies and adultery. It was all just so strange and made no sense.
"FOR THEM what you were doing to them hurt them deeply until eventually they hit an inner crisis point. FOR THEM it was bad enough to consider doing what they know is wrong and what makes them internally ILL." This statement could easily be interpreted as harsh by those LBS here who may have been subjected to gaslighting and other forms of psychological bullying from their MLCer. The MLCer could have been telling the LBS its "all your fault" and made them believe they are very bad. Battered and abused spouses stay in relationships because they rationalise they are such bad people they deserve their beating.
I can envisage circumstances where people may do things that are "wrong" i.e. impoverished people may steal to feed their families or someone may kill in self defence in life and death scenarios but I struggle to envisage circumstances where someone "has to" commit adultery and make themselves internally ill.
When some LBS say they are working on themselves I don't think this an admission of wrong doing but rather acknowledging their need to recover from heartbreak and pain. And some LBS have been in abusive relationships where the MLCer has waged covert aggression against the LBS. Thus the LBS is working on themselves to improve their self-esteem and heal from the wounds they have received during the storm. Some LBS have been well and truly worked over. "working on themselves" is synonymous with recovery and seeing clearly.
honour
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Quote from Annej:
Star, but if you, like Syn, think you play a big part in your husband's case and that it may make sense they leave and have another person, than, why do you mind so much they left and have another person?...Sorry if I'm sounding harsh.
Why on earth would this question need to be asked? The majority are here to stand for marriages...
hugs,
L
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Dido Anne on your posts! You to DGU. To me, MLC is as obvious as all the books and articles on it. My ex came "out of the fog for a few brief moments back in Feb and layed with me and said she could not believe she divorced me, that i am the only one who cares for her, that her friends ( who were new ones she had since BD) were not really her friends, and how could I still take her in with all she has done. it's a fog they are in, a bad mlc fog.
Yes, we can be made to feel guilty of some of our short comings with them over the years and try to improve on that but like Anne said, 'What about them"? Zip, nothing, nada from them but pain. pain and more pain until time heals it.
Ex's famous last words as she left, "the kids will be fine". enough said.
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When some LBS say they are working on themselves I don't think this an admission of wrong doing but rather acknowledging their need to recover from heartbreak and pain. And some LBS have been in abusive relationships where the MLCer has waged covert aggression against the LBS. Thus the LBS is working on themselves to improve their self-esteem and heal from the wounds they have received during the storm. Some LBS have been well and truly worked over. "working on themselves" is synonymous with recovery and seeing clearly.
honour
I agree with this, too. It's been hard to decipher the root causes of the issues I had during our relationship and now. He was passive aggressive and conflict avoiding and I do believe he gaslighted me for a long time, too. But I do recognize the issues I've had since I was a child.. nothing, too, major but maybe, being with him so young simply wasn't the best thing for me.
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Star, but if you, like Syn, think you play a big part in your husband's case and that it may make sense they leave and have another person, than, why do you mind so much they left and have another person?...Sorry if I'm sounding harsh.
Why do I have trouble believing this?
Yeah...Anne, I don't know how you mean for it to come across, but often your posts seem deliberately provocative. It's like you keep wanting to make some sort of a point, but it is not a supportive one. Not nice.
Sorry WP and others. No provocative. Really just asking. This thread was about AC thinking that the partner plays a role in someone MLC. Syn refered that she has not been sharing a room with her husband for two years and Star says she was responsable for so much that went wrong with her relashionship. This is a place for support but also for questions.
If so, if the LBS thinks they play some important part in the MCL crisis or in the marriage break up, perhaps they may find it less hard to accept that their spouse went looking for something they may not be getting at home. Note I was asking, not affirming. I'm again saying "they may".
But it is true, if my husband would not share a room with me for two years my marriage would had been over. And if, in reverse, I would not share a room with him for two years I would had to accept that he went for someone else.
LBOHG, read above. To me, if the LBS thinks they are such big part of the crisis, and that they did things that took to it, and given that leaving and another person are part of the crisis, a LBS that thinks like that may (again may) be less upset with another person than a LBS that does not think that had contributed to the crisis. Does this makes sense?
And, well, Syn has always said she had not shared a room with her husband for two years. Don't think that is an unknown issue here.
But, so that there are no doubts, I do not think the LBS dids or not dids have anything to do with the crisis. A spouse that does not share a bedrrom with a spouse (there is a break in intimacy and a distance between the couple) may have something to do with a normal affair but not with a MLC. Again, may.
Star, no, it does not make sense your husband went with another person. But since it is MLC you should not blame yourself nor think that those wrong things you feel responsable for are the cause of his crisis.
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Annej said:
"This thread was about AC thinking that the partner plays a role in someone MLC. Syn refered that she has not been sharing a room with her husband for two years and Star says she was responsable for so much that went wrong with her relashionship.
Star, no, it does not make sense your husband went with another person. But since it is MLC you should not blame yourself nor think that those wrong things you feel responsable for are the cause of his crisis.
I wouldn't say, and don't believe, I was the cause of his mlc ( not even sure that's what's going on with him ) but I'm taking responsibility for the things that I clearly did wrong and regret, mlc or not.
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Annej said:"This thread was about AC thinking that the partner plays a role in someone MLC. Syn refered that she has not been sharing a room with her husband for two years and Star says she was responsable for so much that went wrong with her relashionship."
I wouldn't say, and don't believe, I was the cause of his mlc ( not even sure that's what's going on with him ) but I'm taking responsibility for the things that I clearly did wrong and regret, mlc or not.
I know you did not say you were responsable for his crisis. And you we not. But I sense a little bit of uncentanty in you. That, perhaps, if you've not done those things the crisis wouldn't had happened. Maybe I'm wrong in that feeling...
We all (or almost all) did wrong things, or not so right ones, in our marriages. If we were to go back we would had done them differently. And we most surely will do them different in the future.
However, the MLC transcends all the wrong or not so good things that were in a marriage.
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Affaircare - I too read your posts and always enjoy your wisdom and approach.
I'm wondering if most things in life come on a spectrum. Some mild - some severe.
All most of us have to go on, in the experience that we each have experienced.
For me - my H and I have been together for 24years, and were always very very close, but also independent in many ways. We supported each other, communicated well and had a loving, fun relationship and have three wonderful teenagers.
Something very very serious occurred to my H over the past three years. Not only have I observed it, but also our children have been devastated by it. Our friends and family also no longer recognise my H.
From what I have read of your MLC, if you don't mind me saying, sounds very very mild in comparison to what I have experienced. My H's crisis has been extreme.
He could barely function, his anxiety was severe, he was an enraged monster, and he ran fast ........ we had no idea where he ran to for the first three months. But he kept coming back every day to see me - all the while he was paranoid, and restless - and wouldn't come within a five metre radius of me. He kept saying that people were going to think he was nuts for leaving me, as I am the most amazing person.
Over time, he is slowly coming back to functioning. He has said things like - he felt like he was going to die if he didn't leave at the time (he now knows this was a strange thing to feel), he has said on many many occasions, that when he left he was incapable of having a relationship with me, that he is still incapable of having a relationship with anyone. He is sorry that he stopped talking to me a year or so before the BD hit - but he said his head was so noisy, and he could barely articulate a sentence.
I could go on - but I just wanted to demonstrate that whatever occurred to my H was very real, and very scary. He stopped functioning in any way as a spouse and as a father, and as a friend.
While I agree that every marriage has areas that could be worked on - my H knows from past experience that I happily work on anything that he brings up. But here lies the difficulty - he stopped functioning as a partner. He went into extreme crisis. He stopped allowing me to meet any of his needs. He kept me back from him emotionally and physically because he wasn't coping. He said that he felt as if he was drowning, and grabbed onto the nearest log of wood (the OW).
He has had a very large meltdown. He himself admits that he thinks he had a complete breakdown.
I am hoping that he moves through this so that we can restore our marriage, and return to discussing things and working on things together.
While I am far from perfect, I am aware that we all have many things to work on in life. Life is a journey. We are not going to learn them all in our youth - some things take time. This is how life is. I agree - if the MLCer has a complaint or criticism about us, we should look at it sincerely. This is part and parcel in any relationship.
It doesn't take away from the fact that most of us are dealing with very out of character extremes of behaviour. I don't think for a moment that my H is my enemy. I love him dearly, but something definitely has happened to him. I hope he makes his way through the tunnel one day.
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No this post was about blaming the mlcer for everything. Like they do to us. Making them "the enemy" like they made us. How can we look at them rewriting history of the marriage and its wrong... and when we do it... Its ok. The LBS is not perfect and without any faults... It does not mean that if u recognise something that you could have done better... Then u r the cause! It means that u are human to and not infallible.
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Annej,
Yes I do get that, however I think that what may be considered a pet peeve is a whole other story that bringing another person into a personal situation...especially if infidelity comes with them
HUgs,
L
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Annej Said:I know you did not say you were responsable for his crisis. And you we not. But I sense a little bit of uncentanty in you. That, perhaps, if you've not done those things the crisis wouldn't had happened. Maybe I'm wrong in that feeling...
Uncertainty, yes, but not about whether or not, had I not done what I did wrong, his mlc would have been prevented. I realize my situation is complex. I'm trying to make sense of it all and make the smartest decisions for me. :)
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What a great thread!
AC I have to agree as before I suspected MLC for my H and he announced he wanted to be separated but still live in the same house, I thought it was ME and what I wasn't giving him in the R (we did have problems in the R before BD).
I do agree they are going to have the crisis no matter what but maybe there are situations that may accelerate it rather than it happening later.
My mom passed away and then a few months later H's dad passed away- talk about crisis waiting to happen but then when OW comes along...don't know if the MLCer is actually looking for a R but an escape and the OW is everything that I wasn't in the R.
I have come to realize this first hand and as every situation is different I can relate to AC's post as I was not there for H before BD. Part of me didn't blame my H for leaving- I think I would have left me too at that time
Some MLCers have a worse crisis than others and some make it through as a MLC transition so do we play a tiny role in this...I believe so but not enough to cause it but enough to not help it (if that makes sense)
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"FOR THEM what you were doing to them hurt them deeply until eventually they hit an inner crisis point. FOR THEM it was bad enough to consider doing what they know is wrong and what makes them internally ILL."
I know this topic is very related to a post I made on RCRs thread about experts. I do not believe my exH is the enemy. And in fact, he has said this very thing to me. However, I still beg to differ. I do not know a marriage without problems. Mine had problems and some of them I caused. BUT, and this is the big BUT, I was always willing to work on them. I begged him for years to go to some sort of therapy with me because we had such huge issues communicating and compromising. He told me he was miserable because I would not spend ALL our vacation time with his mother anymore, that it left him so hurt and empty that I forced him to have an affair with a woman who would do what it took to make his mother happy...
Well if you don't see the dysfunction in that... I knew if I continued to compromise MYSELF as I had done for 20 years to make his mother happy, I could "save" my marriage, but his mother was KILLING ME. I know I did things that hurt my marriage--but I needed help, I couldn't do all the heavy lifting. I know he is in pain and he feels so bad for what he did that he had a heart attack, but I can't own that. I am not perfect, but I loved him and wanted to work with him, but I needed help and he couldn't give it. For 20 years I had given everything and I was drained and depleted, I was hurt deeply also, but I was not willing to give up.
I knew he was unhappy, and I offered him a divorce. I tried to tell him that if what he needed was someone to please his mother, I would gladly back away and let him find that person. But, he said no, that he loved me and would never leave me. I think part of him would like to disentangle from mommy--but he is unwilling to face the dark and ugly stuff inside himself and the consequences from her if he does. For years he walked the tightrope between us, and then with our son's medical crisis, he finally fell off, and decided it would easier to please her. The only problem is he doesn't recognize he never will...
I am not going to try to speak for anyone else, but I think most of us are willing to admit our marriages had "issues." BUT, he found a replacement and walked away. I have a lot I could work on, but there is nothing I could work on that would have given me, or would give me now, a stronger marriage with him, unless he chooses to help--it does take two. It takes two, but in MLC there is only one person working.
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I agree Lisa - in MLC, there is only one person working on the marriage. The other is running far. This is the reality that most of us are dealing with.
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Kikki.... You described almost verbatim what my h went through... It was a pretty severe breakdown. He is still suicidal. He felt like he was going to die and if he didn't leave he would... Then when he did all the guilt and shame piled ontop of it. And right now he is trying to get out of the maze that he built around himself.
I think i am compassionate to what he is going through because my best friend has had severe depression all her life and has tried to commit suicide before she really got some help for herself. She explains what is going through their heads when they feel this way... So i came to the understanding that he didn't intentionally hurt me or our girls... He left me when i was pregnant with our 4th child and i lost the baby... I have had a lot i had to work through to get to the person i have become. It was not easy. Something just clicked inside of me recently and I changed how i communicate with my h. And i guess i realized that he felt that i had hurt him too... That is his perception and i guess i understand now that when Dr. Phil says if one person thinks there is a problem... Then there is a problem. I have tried to take all the exaggerations from the mlcer into consideration while in introspection. And i do realize that in there somewhere i found that he had some valid reasons. In any relationship... I believe that it would benefit me to change these things... And i apologize because i wanted to. It validated his feelings. I felt i needed to despite everything he did to me... That does take strength and it was something i fought because i wanted to punish him for what he did to me. But when I let some of that go... I felt a sense of freedom that i let myself off the hook to not have to carry that around anymore.
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OMR - Scary stuff isn't it. I had no idea what was happening at the time, but yes, have always felt compassionate towards my H, because he is seriously not himself.
I too have apologised for all sorts of things during this time, because that is how he felt about things.
Recently though - he again mentioned how critical I became before BD. He said it felt such a big deal to him at the time, but now can see that I would have had so much to be critical about. (Mostly it was because I was trying to suggest he slow down at work, so that he didn't kill himself).
2.5 years later - he now tells me that he's worried that he might kill himself with how hard he works. Yip!! What do you say to that?
I validate.
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Anne, thanks for clarifying. Online posts can often be misconstrued for sure. I try to speak up if I am not sure about how something was meant.
I agree Lisa - in MLC, there is only one person working on the marriage. The other is running far. This is the reality that most of us are dealing with.
Kikki, thank you for saying this! Recently I have caught myself getting frustrated again because regular relationship rules aren't applying. This is so utterly crazymaking...
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Yep it is... Oh i was critical too... And with good reason. But i guess back then i didn't have the tools that i do now. I didn't validate his feelings... He had been going through this a few years before BD and kept trying to fix it with other things before he started the affair shortly before bombdrop... At that time he had a great fear of telling anyone that he was spiraling downwards... He was trying to fix it while doing his best to hide it. I think that i was the only one that knew something was off. So eventually i became the reason why he felt this way... I was the only thing left... It must have been me. The OW manipulation worked wonders and he was Soooo sure that this would fix him. But 3 days after he left us, the ow's fiancee hung himself. So talk about some heavy emotional blackmail for being someone's "twin soul flame"... real scary.
OMR
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Kikki, thank you for saying this! Recently I have caught myself getting frustrated again because regular relationship rules aren't applying.
WP - I believe this absolutely to be the root of the whole thing. Regular relationships rules don't apply.
I guess that's what you are saying affaircare. We need to keep applying regular relationship rules, even if the MLCer isn't?
OMR - oh my goodness! That is so awful about the OW's fiancee - I'm really sorry that that is part of the mix.
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WP, you’re welcome. Yes, online posts can be misconstrued. Even if we use smiles we do not see or hear each other, so we miss on voice tone, facial expression and body posture. A thing that is said in a calm tone of voice can sound rude, for example.
Star, we are all trying to make sense of this all and the smartest decisions. It is not easy.
crazy, yes, would say that some situations may accelerate, or accentuate the crisis. But don’t think it is just down to one thing. If our part is not enough to help it…well, think it not enough to help it, no.
Lisa, almost all, if not all, marriages have issues. Not necessarily permanent issues, but occasional ones. All couples have more stressful periods, ups and downs. It is normal in any long term relationship. The existence of issues does not make a marriage a bad marriage. And most of the issues, I think, are worked out along the marriage. Exactly, it takes to have a marriage, two to work on the marriage but, in MLC we only have one person doing, or willing to doing, the work.
omr, so sorry that your husband is still feeling suicidal. And what a terrible story, the OW’s fiancee. One of my cousins has been severely depressed until some two months ago and had been suicidal for over one and a half year. His perception of those around him, his life, his job, is life achievements were all confused and seen as a problem. Since he come out of the deepest end of the depression he started to see things in a different fashion, more clear and, fortunately, realised that he has worth for those around him (he thought he did not. Not because anyone has told him he had not but because he was seeing himself as a failure).
kikki, funny how, sometimes, in time, they end up realize why we were critical, or thought some things were not so good for them.
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Annej said:
Star, we are all trying to make sense of this all and the smartest decisions. It is not easy.
Yeah, I realized afterwards, I said "my situation is complex" but all of our situations are complex, lol. I just feel like mine is a little more unusually complex or maybe even.. oh, I don't know... I'm just confused. :D
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I haven't read the entire thread yet, but I guess my frustration all along has been that I feel like I did own up to my failures. I asked God to point them out to me and he did....and it wasn't fun. I cried, apologized, and tried to fix my mistakes. None of it was reciprocated by my H. The only thing he would admit to doing wrong was "not telling me my faults earlier". I was so willing to do ANYTHING to fix our marriage and keep our family together, but all I heard for two years while he lived in the basement was that it was "too little too late".
So, I completely agree that it takes both spouses to mess up a marriage. I just wish my H would have been willing to forgive and move forward because I was. Now we're in the middle of a divorce uglier than I could have ever dreamed possible. Just so sad and senseless.
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I told hubby I would move mountains, work hard on making us great, wanted to go to counseling.
He dismissed his first divorce filing saying "it's not going to work but I' WILLING to try". Then wanted out about 3-4 months later when I found out about an affair.
We never worked on it. He just lived here while being with an incredibly unattractive woman 10 years his senior.
I tried, was willing to change anything (and did he admits), but we never went to one counseling session nor would he go to ONE for 'me' for closure. He just mentally than physically ran. He's now with this woman that looks 70 and we are on the eve of the divorce process.
I tried, I tried. OMG Faith! Ditto!
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I'm only jumping on here briefly as I need to get dinner ready and a big storm is about to hit us.................
I am aware that I have been 'bagging' my H. I don't know where else to vent it. Venting here helps me to not tell every living soul around me here. I just confide in my sister.
I know in the big picture they aren't the enemy but he sure is treating me that way in word and deed. And that is what I am finding so difficult to come to terms with and cope with.
I completely accept that I was also responsible for our marriage issues and I continue to read and learn etc. H has pointed out many of my faults as a wife and also brought my father into it. His fault? Marrying me. So he apologised for it.
When H wrote me a letter back in Sept 2009, I had also written him one. You see, he wasn't the only one unfulfilled and unhappy in the marriage as it was. We both felt that. He was so surprised that I had written him a letter when he gave me his. He expected that I would reply to his as he was supposedly the only unhappy one. He never thought it may have been 2 sided.
Well anyway, we went to counseling but you know what?!!!!!!!! Part way through atleast, if not earlier, he was exchanging photos of himself with a young 20 something! in a seductive pose. So much for trying to work on US!!!! He is 45. I am 45 but today a number of people said they thought I was 38. I am attractive looking by what others say so I don't believe it was because I had let myself go (even though I've put weight on since the kids).
So I agree with what Affaircare is saying. It is both parties who are responsible for the marriage relationship but I think in many of our case, we were truing and working on changing us and the relationship but the MLC'ers just focused their attention elsewhere and bailed out. Took the EASY option. Sorry, but really, some of them just plain well don't want to work hard at anything. My H bails out of every relationship as soon as there is a disagreement and he blows his stack off.
It doesn't matter that he's gone. I'm still working on me. I've stuck with the same counselor and keep reading and learning. I do feel sorry that somethjing was lacking or wrong in his childhood and he can't handle all this but he has made his choices, Not once, but twice. I am the second wife.
SP
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The OW manipulation worked wonders and he was Soooo sure that this would fix him. But 3 days after he left us, the ow's fiancee hung himself. So talk about some heavy emotional blackmail for being someone's "twin soul flame"... real scary.
Very scary. Truly dreadful.
honour
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I've had a pretty quick read through this thread, and wanted to jump in....
It seems to me that there are two different things being discussed. One is about issues in a marriage, the other about MLC. I think most of us generally recognise our own role in our marriages, our own role in whatever difficulties each of our marriages had. And most of us take on board that we aren't/weren't perfect, and that we each need to address those legitimate complaints that our spouses may have had.
And we as a rule are WILLING to address those issues. Our MLCers aren't.
That is different from saying that our actions or lack thereof caused our spouses to have an MLC and to leave/find someone else/whatever else they did or are doing.
The difference to me here is that our MLCers aren't allowing us the opportunity to address those legitimate issues, and whatever unhappiness they may have been feeling about the marriage before BD generally they didn't say. I can here of course only speak for myself -- in the months preceeding BD I did know that my H was unhappy, but never that it was to do with us -- even he was looking for all kinds of other reasons, and I ran around like a headless chicken trying to help. It was only at BD that he said that he had "discovered" that the entire problem was me. And that it was now "too late". A very familiar story here.
So it isn't the MLCer who is the enemy, although their actions while in crisis are extremely hurtful. It is MLC itself that is the problem, and therin lies the reason we walk this tightrope. And it often means protecting ourselves from the person our MLCer is right now.
Like someone said -- normal relationship rules don't apply here.
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Very, VERY often an MLC'er will say something like "I haven't been happy for years" and what they mean is that resentment has slowly been building over the years until it became intolerable (crisis).
I wanted to go back to Affaircare's original post. Because I agree and disagree. I agree that it is easy to pretend that our marriages were perfect and that there was only something wrong with the MLCer. For most of us, that would be a rewrite of history. However, I never expected marriage to be "perfect". I never even expected it to be "easy". We were two complicated human beings trying to make a life together work. It required communication, openness and even some hard work. Our marriage was definitely not perfect for either of us at BD. I had some problems with H which I had tried in various ways and at various times to discuss. He did not want to discuss anything. He OBVIOUSLY also had problems with me, but when I asked him, he never LET on that I might be a problem. We talked about his problems at work, we talked about his identity issues (I still did not know he was in crisis, I thought he was just sorting out some things in his own head - in my own defense I had a newborn and a preschooler and was rather preoccupied with two small children, so I did sometimes just think, "fgs, grow up and realise that we all have problems and we need to accept we are adults and have responsibilities - this teenage angst is so badly timed". I reiterate, MLC did not occur to me at this point. H was only 34.)
I did contribute to problems in the marriage, but I have always been open to honest communication about things and I do not think that I am a horribly judgemental person. At some point in his crisis (and it may have happened insidiously or it may even have started from a good intention - to protect me when I was post partum and looking after a tiny baby) he decided that he did not WANT to talk about anything with ANYONE, me included. He spent months journalling (I found out a BD) and what he wrote was often vaguely crazy (some of it came out in MC) and generally VERY VERY teenage angsty - the sort of stuff that most of us did work out at around the age of 16 - 22.
There was no opportunity for me to change anything about me, because I was not included in H's decision making process about the marriage AT ANY POINT. He internalised everything and made unilateral decisions about our family, including dating another woman, without giving me the option of working on anything with him. He spent a lot of time in the few months before BD, when he was in his affair, making me believe I was crazy. If I asked him to do the dishes, he would say that all I wanted him for was to help with the kids and I didn't love him anymore. I would respond, "of course I love you, but I am tired after looking after 2 infants all day, so yes I do want you to help with the kids too". And he would say, "but that is all that you want me for" and I would say, "no, but I could say the same to you, all you want me for is to look after the kids, is that true?"
Maybe if I had been on the outside of this discussion I would have seen that he was trying to tell me he didnt feel loved. But when I tried to show him I loved him, he would dismiss that too. If I tried to cuddle him, whatever. So I couldnt win anyway. How do you compete with the mother of all alienators, a psychological crisis. I could not get in his brain and alter his brain chemistry. I could not change anything about me that would have stopped his running. I truly believe that. Does that mean I am perfect. Of course not.
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But when I tried to show him I loved him, he would dismiss that too. If I tried to cuddle him, whatever. So I couldnt win anyway. How do you compete with the mother of all alienators, a psychological crisis. I could not get in his brain and alter his brain chemistry. I could not change anything about me that would have stopped his running. I truly believe that. Does that mean I am perfect. Of course not.
Nicely put - 'How do you compete with the mother of all alienators - a psychological crisis'.
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Wow T&L - great minds think alike - you have said what I was trying to say, but more eloquently!
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None of it was reciprocated by my H.
There will be no reciprocal conversations until the process is complete.
The discussion about the issues both before BD and post BD are reliant on the process being completed by the MLCer and reconciliation with the spouse.
We must all remember that these men/women who are true MLCers are thrust onto the journey by outside forces long before our time with them. We were then used to justify their unhappiness and leaving. But this journey and the processes involved have to be completed before any reconciliation can happen.
Like most MLCers my H has said and done some despicable things to both me and our children. But I know I can't blame him as I know why he is on his journey and the reason why he is on it. All I can do is completely detach and let him go.
Blaming them lets them pull us constantly on the rollercoaster, which will destroy us emotionally. T&L is right it is the MLC that is to blame and not our H/W. IMO the emotion tagged onto blame needs to be channelled into proactively moving forward with our lives and not make us feel hopeless and lacking control with the cards we have been dealt.
xx
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Sorry, I don't accept any of the blame/reasons for spouses MLC. I am more then willing to take my share of the blame for the state the marriage had gotten into. No marriage is perfect. Ours was no different, he had been slowly drifting into MLC since the 1997 or so. We did counseling for about 6 or 7 sessions, but he played the counselor perfectly, made me look like a totally insane, menopausal witch, hehehe. Probably was true actually, I was menopausal.
There is lots of blame to go around in any marriage. MLC is a whole new can of worms. Nobody is to blame. All any one can do is dive for cover, hang in as long as they can, try to stay healthy, mentally, physically and emotionally and see what happens.
Nobodies the enemy here. Venting is a healthy release. If we can't vent in here, I am lost as to where we can.
hugs Stayed
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Ok, so going back to AC's first post I guess I DID contribute to the breakdown of my marriage. I chose to like Britney Spears and should have known that no rational woman would put up with that. I also chose to be a conservative, not realizing that was a deal-breaker. On top of that, I didn't age well and realize now that I could not expect any woman to have to live with that. The kicker, though, is that I chose to be me and should not blame her for not liking 95% about me after 21 years together. I also should not read into the fact that she told me she loved me every day up until less than a week pre-BD and that we made love several times a day sometimes in the months before BD. I should know better than to read into the fact that my W posted about how proud she was of me on her Facebook back in March or that we would hold each other just about every night after she waited up for me to get home from school so that we could enjoy watching our favorite show while snuggling on the couch. How could I have been so stupid? I should have known better.
For any who could not detect it, or if it is not a part of their culture - that first paragraph was pure sarcasm. The title of this thread would suggest a level of empathy for the MLCer, and I totally agree that they are not the "enemy" and that we should not treat them as such. But, this whole $hit about "contributing to the breakdown of the marriage" is outrageous. The marriage did not "break down," but rather one of the spouses did. What is happening with that spouse has NOTHING to do with the other spouse and I cite my own sitch on that as my W has suddenly forgotten she's a parent and acts like the teenager from down the street who baby-sits from time to time. I think it's ludicrous to say that the "marriage broke down" because, as so many before have stated, one of the partners was either unwilling or unable to take any action whatsoever to make things right. And, honestly, I don't believe there really was anythnig out of the ordinary to make right in most of the cases. Again, in my own sitch we struggled with money but rarely disagreed about parenting and enjoyed doing the same things and watching the same movies and shows together. We enjoyed each other's company and made each other laugh daily. As far as the 5 Love Languages go, I can testify that I practiced that. My W's main love languages were quality time and physical touch, and those were practiced routinely. My kids would vouch for that. I worked my ass off for my marriage and family, and put up with more than most husbands would have. My W was not and is not perfect, and I don't expect or even want her to be. I would take the old W back as she was a wonderful mother and loving spouse, notwithstanding being a slob who hated to do housework and laundry.
AC, I'm pretty sure that you know that I have a great deal of respect for you and hold you in very high regard. That being said, please do not take offense to what I'm about to say as I feel it needs to be said and I'm definitely open to a good debate and/ or counter-point.
I feel that a Discussion Topic such as this could be very damaging to several here, but mostly to the newbies on here. I'm finally at a place where I feel both really good, hopeful, but also realistic about the fact that my W may never come back and I will have to permanently adjust to a new life. I went into the thread expecting to find information about loving our spouses unconditionally and perhaps a bit of sympathy for what they're going through (I wouldn't trade places with her for all the money in the world) but what I found really read like blaming the LBS and pointing fingers at their shortcomings. It rocked me a little bit and brought me down just a bit before I was able to get a grip and pull myself back up. I really worry about someone whose pain is still raw reading that and spiralling into depression and self-loathing due to blaming themself for being abandoned. I think we all have a responsibility to think about who may be reading our posts, and for every one like AC and I who are vocal and confident in what they write, there are probably 10 more who are either too afraid or too insecure to actually post and end up lurking and reading the whole time. Those are probably the most fragile among us, and we all have a responsibility to comfort and reassure them as best we can.
I believe all the literature about MLC would point to the fact that the spouse is not at all to blame and that abandoning the family is part of the running away symptom. I've seen several men and women who have been through this state that it IS NOT about the spouse and that they did not cause it. Shepherdess and Stayed's H come to mind instantly, and if I wasn't rushed I would be able to think of more. AC, given that you have self-reported going through an MLC-like condition, is it possible that you may still be speaking from the fog somewhat? I know that several have mentioned about a lady who had her own site about MLC that fell apart after several found out that she was still in the fog, so how do any of us know when someone is truly out as they can seem so lucid. Not saying you are, AC, but your first post REALLY threw me for a loop as it seems to be a bit out of character for you. Either way, I stand by my previous statements about how what has been written could be very damaging.
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AC, given that you have self-reported going through an MLC-like condition, is it possible that you may still be speaking from the fog somewhat? I know that several have mentioned about a lady who had her own site about MLC that fell apart after several found out that she was still in the fog, so how do any of us know when someone is truly out as they can seem so lucid. Not saying you are, AC, but your first post REALLY threw me for a loop as it seems to be a bit out of character for you. Either way, I stand by my previous statements about how what has been written could be very damaging.
I was a member at the site to which you refer Thundarr and the original post of this thread bears alarming similarity to the tone of Christine's posts before she closed down her site.
honour
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Thanks Thundarr--I had a hard time sleeping last night, which rarely happens to me, even through the worst and bleakest post-BD days--I am a good sleeper. I resepct a lot of what AC writes, but I don't believe she comes from a true MLC perspective. She writes more about "affair crisis." I think that people who have regular vanilla affairs are also in a marraige crisis that can seem like a mini-MLC. I think my exH may even be that, and not a true MLC. However, even in the case of straight vanilla affairs and all the writings on it, there is a LOT of blame put on the other spouse. I don't buy that. Sure we all contribute to unhealthy aspects of a marriage, and after 20 years, I had a lot of time to screw things up. But I always come back to--WHO turned, WHO walked away, WHO did not communicate. Under all of that is a value judgment that it is easier, better, more exciting, whatever, to turn and look somewhere else than to work on the marriage.
I know a woman had an affair when her husband refused to work on the marriage--you might say she was justified and HE should look at his issues. It is true, and he will acknowledge he was sorry he did not try harder, but at some point, she should have thrown down the gauntlet and said, "if you will not work with me, I am done" and left before the affair. There are rights and wrongs. Good people can and do make mistakes all the time, and both people contribute to the state of the marriage, but I think for me to "work" on whatever I did wrong in a partnership, by myself, is a tremendous waste of time--after all one of my biggest offenses is that I don't clear the time off the microwave and I won't check pockets before doing laundry... I have better things to do. Plus, I would like to find a man who can look at the blinking microwave and be so thankful that we had great morning sex and I still took the time to make him breakfast, that perhaps he might empty his own pockets, or MAYBE even do a load of laundry once in a while!
I don't blame my exH for any of his feelings or even for leaving me for not clearing the time off the microwave. I blame him for not having enough love and respect for me and his kids, and our history, that he could treat me so horribly on his way out the door. And so, sometimes he is the enemy. He threatened to take my kids away and made me get an attorney to fight for child support. At some point, some part of him became the enemy, and in many cases here, the MLCer may not be the enemy but MLC is, and for many people at some point in this journey, they have to be strong enough to FIGHT that person, so too much naval gazing and self-blame is not productive or conducive to self-protection. Just my opinion, Lisa
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Thundarr
Thank you.
I am in complete agreement with the comments in your post and especially the bit about:
I think we all have a responsibility to think about who may be reading our posts, and for every one like AC and I who are vocal and confident in what they write, there are probably 10 more who are either too afraid or too insecure to actually post and end up lurking and reading the whole time. Those are probably the most fragile among us, and we all have a responsibility to comfort and reassure them as best we can
I won't rehash my own personal situation here except to say that my h. and I had made changes to our lives in the years before BD as a result of an earlier aborted attempt at MLC (seems to be quite common although at the time I didn't know what I was dealing with) and that we were closer than ever. I knew instinctively that this was not about me and that there was nothing I could do except let my h. go to do whatever he needed to do. It was only on finding this forum that the madness that had entered the life of my family began to make sense. My h.'s crisis was not caused by me nor our relationship. It has; however, pushed both of us into finding ourselves even if for now my h. chooses to distract himself with OW.
I have no doubt that my h. is in crisis and the best thing I can do for both of us is to get to a place of strength and wholeness as an individual. If I ever get a chance to speak to my h. about our marriage then I hope we can work out together what we want from a new relationship. Until then back to taking care of myself first......
CrazyStuff
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After the first post I wrote on this, I was asked where AffairCare said her words applied to all....so as was suggested, I went back and re-read her post. And I do believe she wrote with a very broad brush. Some of her points may be valid indeed, but not for everyone.
And maybe that needed to be clarified better. Maybe this is too upsetting a topic to not be very, very, even overly careful when painting with that broad brush.
I can't add much more or anything better than other people have and Thundarr's post was in my opinion, exceedingly well stated and got right to it.
The first thing I though when I read the OP was that it was coming from an MLC point of view. Sorry, but that's my honest reaction, one that I didn't want to say but was fairly certain of. And I wonder who single people blame their MLC's on. And I wonder how the children who get trashed in all of this change themselves to better please the MLCer. Sorry for the sarcasm but this is WAY too broad a brush and in my opinion, more excuses.
For the record, my husband is not the enemy either. No matter how hurt, angry, betrayed I may have felt, I have loved him enough to stand and I would not do that to an enemy.
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Interesting thread.
I do not think you can dismiss what affaircair is saying.
but the reason you work on yourself is because of the small percentage of what an MLC'er says that really is true. You work on yourself to stop thinking of your spouse as an extension of you and view them as an entirely separate and equal individual who may well be 100% DIFFERENT than you--and to stop treating someone you say you love with the cold shoulder, fighting and blaming of your own.
This part right here strikes me as a very true statement.
I believe that the MLC'er is like a truth meter, they know us so well that nothing can be snuck by them.
I am sure that we all have faults, maybe it is not about liking Britney Spears but something else, that this triggers in them.
Looking for the things we can FIX in our selves is important in our own growth and journeys.
If we are just going to run away and get a new relationship or blame our MLC'er for the demise of our marriage then I agree we are no better than them.
I understand what everyone else is writing here but maybe what AC is saying is that we need to look deeper.
I know that I do, I know that as much as jumping into another relationship would make me FEEL better, that I am not ready, I am not sure that I KNOW what issues I need to look at, but I am sure that I must have some.
I know that even if this marriage has failed that I do not want to be part of the statistics of 75% failed second marriages.
I am not sure that I picked poorly with my wife. But I would be hesistant to find someone that is her complete opposite.
I will never find someone that is the mother of my adult children. ( and that is a biggie for me), so there are things to work on.
What they are, well maybe that is why we are all here, to help each other figure out what WE need to work on.
I know one thing is for sure I have TIME to do it.
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I would like to clarify some things here...
I think what AC is saying here really applies to the LBS who is a lot further in the process.... For me, i am 20 months in. I am talking with my h about reconciling. I have realized that at this time... He may have had some valid gripes. Just about everything that came out of his mouth around BD was a load of crap... We shouldn't take those things and blame ourselves for why they went into MLC... Our how we caused it... Because we didn't in any way shape or form. Back then i also would have turned the world upside down trying to change myself to fix everything so that he would stay. No matter what i did or didn't do... It still would have happened.
But now that i am at a very different place with my h... I do see why he might have felt unloved. There are reasons that he had some of those feelings... Were they enough to give him justification for what he did? No way! While i was on my journey... And really only recently... I have realized that i could have done some things better... And those are the things that i need to be aware of doing differently if we are going to restore our marriage. I can only take responsibility for me. And i will not take any responsibility for his destructive choices. That's completely his....
Where we are at right now (my h and i)... I think is the time to consider what AC has talked about to help move the relationship forward... I can see things very differently now.
OMR
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Thundarr~ I totally agree with you. I have read a ton of articles on MLC and they all say it has nothing to do with you. The MLCer is in a crisis and it is all about them. Depression and childhood issues. I know my H was depressed since around 2006. Not where he couldn't work or function but just dead eyes, dead acting. Ironically, I was on the phone with my father yesterday and he said to me
that he and my mother where going through some old family pictures. Then he said, I have to tell you, H doesn't look good in the last few years compared to earlier years and you can clearly see it. I said what to you mean? He said, his eyes look DEAD. It is very
obvious in each picture. I was kind of in shock for my parents to see this in him. I have never mentioned to them dead eyes, just that he had been depressed.
I feel I had nothing to do with the breakdown of our marriage either. My H has some serious issues about his childhood. He was abandoned many times by his father. His father had problems with depression and alcohol. He was verbally abusive to my H
and a few times physically abusive. My H does not know how to love. I have also realized over the last several years that he doesn't even know how to be a Dad. He treats our son like a friend. He never backed my up with disipline. He treated our son as an equal. I used to tell my H that he has to stop it and to start acting like a dad, not a friend. I told him we are going to have problems with S if
you don't change the way you handle him. Well I am now having those problems and am left alone to deal with him and it's hard.
I honestly don't blame my H for any of this because it all has to do with his childhood. I just finished reading a book on male depression and in that book and some others it talks about these men who are conflict avoiders which my H is and how they do not
know how to love. In Surprised by Love by Dr. Jay, he said the same thing. He didn't know how to love. His story is almost identical to mine and my H's. I felt like I was reading a book written about me and my H.
I just know I love my H dearly, I want him to wake up some day and come home but not before he looks at himself and realizes he has
some real issues with himself. I know he will never be happy with anyone because he can't. He doesn't know how to be happy. He looked to me to make him happy and now I suppose he is expecting OW to make him happy. That was impossible because he has to make himself happy, not depend on me or anyone else to do that for him.
I did everything for my H. I waited on him, gave him surprise birthday parties, always made his favorite homeade meals, did absolutely everything around the house. I did all this because I loved him and he worked so hard to provide for us that I felt that was my part and I wanted to make his life easier. I can honestly say there was nothing else I could have done for him. Which just showed me the issues are within himself.
Everything was always me me me with him and still is. Even now if I talk to him, he never asks how I am but he starts talking about himself or his job. He needs constant praise. So now I'm sure OW is doing that for him. These last few years he shut me out. I used to try and get him to talk and he wouldn't. No matter how hard I tried to please him or try and get him to open up and talk to me, he wouldn't. Just once last Oct. he said he felt dead inside, numb and thats all he would say. He never gave us a chance. He was just gone one day. And that I find so unfair. I just wish he could of let himself open up to me. But he didn't. He found a OW to do that with. OW validates him, makes him feel like a King. I wonder is she is seeing yet that everything is all me me me with him. ::) I believe he had it in his head he wanted an affair, that infatuation feeling again to make himself feel better. Sure it worked for a while but I know he is still not happy. At first I think he was very happy, especially when the affair was a big secret. Now that they have been together for 14 months, I believe the relationship is settling down, becoming just an ordinary relationship. He will have the same issues with her as he did with me because it's not about us, it's him.
So Thundarr, again, I totally agree with you 100%.
NB
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I believe that the MLC'er is like a truth meter,
An MLCer is anything but a truth meter. My W changed from someone who was honest and trustworthy to someone who lied without conscience at all. It was horrifying to witness someone so wonderful breakdown in that way.
You are fond of saying believe nothing they say and 50% of what they do.
A characteristic of MLC is lies and deception.
honour
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I believe that the MLC'er is like a truth meter,
An MLCer is anything but a truth meter. My W changed from someone who was honest and trustworthy to someone who lied without conscience at all. It was horrifying to witness someone so wonderful breakdown in that way.
You are fond of saying believe nothing they say and 50% of what they do.
A characteristic of MLC is lies and deception.
honour
Yes honor I do say that however what MLC'er say do have elements of truth in it.
So the tricky part is to sort through that and figure out what is really true and what is not.
The only part that matters is for us helping OURSELVES, to use the knowledge that we gain here to make changes for US, not to win them back.
I know that it is important that we change, that we become the opposite.
HB wrote this in one of the sermons, I would suggest we all re-read it.
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=6.msg392#msg392
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I know that even if this marriage has failed that I do not want to be part of the statistics of 75% failed second marriages.
I am not sure that I picked poorly with my wife. But I would be hesistant to find someone that is her complete opposite.
I will never find someone that is the mother of my adult children. ( and that is a biggie for me), so there are things to work on.
OP - I actually agree with you (I don't know if your post was referring to some of my points, but I will respond because what you have said is relavent to my sitch). I have very little intention of marrying again and certainly not in a big hurry. I know that I did not pick poorly with my H - when he was a good husband he was the best and I told everyone (even during his early crisis, before BD, I remember telling friends what a great guy and Dad he was, even as I was experiencing some problems with him.) I also don't think he picked poorly with me. For many years we were best friends and confidantes. But issues started to arise with H thatwere not relevant and would never have been apparent until we had children of our own, that made our relationship more difficult - could I have responded differently? Yes. Did I know how to deal with someone who had deep insecurities going back to childhood that surfaced once we had children, particularly when our daughter was born (a re-enactment of the birth of his sister?). No, I didn't. And I was not even clear that this was such a big issues. I was aware that there were issues relating to his mother (so my transformation from lover to mother was VERY hard for him to deal with - I never anticipated the change being so dramatic in him).
I am not looking for someone who is my H's opposite anymore than I am looking for a pre-MLC replica in another man. The qualities I discussed in the man I am seeing that are different to my H, simply serve to HIGHLIGHT to me some of the growing up H still needs to do. He may get there some day, but he wants to do it without me. That is his choice and his right. But in the meantime I have found a friendship with a man who is older and has clearly spent some time thinking about the nature of life and love in a way that I am not sure that H ever has. In anycase, I do not actually spend time comparing them, other than noting these things. I just enjoy his company, find him interesting and quite sage about life. No other man will ever be the father of my children, and that is sad. I would have liked our children to grow up with both parents together, supporting each other. That has always been important to me. My S is having huge problems adjusting, but I can't tell him that it will be alright because I don't know for sure that H will ever come back. So we all need to just accept it is over, and I will not bring a new man into my children's life for a long time. My H did not do our children that courtesy - as those who know my story are aware, my children have been spending weekends and holidays with H and OW in their tiny apartment since about a month after OW and H moved in together. Living where I do, there is nothing I could do to stop that.
I was aware when I decided to be honest about my decisions on here, that it was not in line with the advice on here. But, I live a long way from my own family and my friends, I operate every day in a language that is not my mother tongue. I come home from work to 2 small and very demanding children. It may be a personal failing, but someone came into my life who offers kindness, adult company friendship and affection. We are not planning a marriage, we are just enjoying each others company and getting to know each other. It may not work out. But, at the risk of soundling MLCy myself, I too only have one life and I am a human/social animal. I don't NEED to be in a relationship, but I certainly like not having to be alone all the time.
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OP,
Your points are valid, but I think you may be taking this discussion in a 3rd direction rather than clarifying what has already been said.
The title of this thread IS misleading, and I don't recall seeing anything disputing that. The first post seemed to indicate that the marriages that have either ended or are in danger were the result of both parties rather than MLC, and I for one took exception to that. No one on here claims to be Jesus reborn and as such do not claim to be perfect in any way, but those who have chimed in take accountability for their own imperfections but also state that their imperfections were not valid grounds for the MLCer abandoning them and their children. Your first post alluded to your personal belief that you were somehow responsible for your marriage breaking down, and not knowing you or your sitch personally I cannot disagree on that as I know you have analyzed it overmuch. But, I believe your logic is flawed if the attempt is made to apply it to all or even most situations. As Bon mentioned, the statements made were blanket statements that could easily be interpreted to impart blame on the LBS for the drastic actions the MLCer took. That would be by nature a fallacious statement, as you yourself have stated several times that we are responsible for our own actions and so are they. They day the MLCer CHOSE to walk out on the marriage and the family without making any reasonable attempt to work on or improve things, they automatically assumed full ownership for the marriage and family breaking down.
In my case, where my W has stopped parenting and makes the kids aware that they are a distant second priority to her new friends, would you also assign partial responsibility to them? Was my S6 asking to have a story read to him every night sufficient reason for my W to go days or even weeks without seeing or talking to him? Was my D10's desire and need to have help with her homework ample grounds for being told "I hate you" by her mother? Was their daily need to be fed, clothed and sheltered unreasonable in a way that would justify their mother walking out on them? HELL NO!!!
Your assertion that we need to work on ourselves to get back to being healthy is not a counter-point to what has been written, but rather a common-sense given in any traumatic situation. OF COURSE we need to climb back to a healthy state of mind and body. That's true not only if our spouse suddenly goes into MLC and walks out on us or if our home suddenly burns down. Also, if we lose our job due to budget cuts, our someone close to us dies or is diagnosed with a serious illness. We have to heal one way or another and our bodies and minds are programmed to do that anyway.
And, as far as the statement "we must become the opposite," that should not be construed as becoming the opposite of who we truly are or were. If the only way we can get our spouse back is to totally quit being who we are and change our nature while dropping our values and convictions then I quit right now. THEY'VE ALREADY TRIED THAT AND IT DIDN'T EXACTLY WORK OUT FOR THEM!
Great debate on here, and even though I disagree with OP in this case I highly respect his input and opinions (he already knows that). Since there is either so much misinterpreted or even mis-information floating around here maybe someone should come up with a compendium of what is KNOWN about MLC and publish them where we could all reference them. RCR could do that and she could call them Articles or something. And then someone like DGU could reference them to point out when we are getting off-track or misinterpreting (oh, wait........).
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If the only way we can get our spouse back is to totally quit being who we are and change our nature while dropping our values and convictions then I quit right now.
IMO it's not about completely changing to someone else. When my H left with his reasons and justifications I stood and looked at him in shock and recognised some home truths in what he said. They were like darts through my heart. Throughout the past 2 years I have had the time and space to look at the issues raised and decided that I had lost the real me being a wife and mother but I wasn't JA anymore. So my journey is about rediscovering myself and getting to know me again.
The person I am now is the person my H met and fell in love with.
IMO life molds us into people we need to be i.e mothers, fathers and spouses. These roles impact on us as individuals and I believe those roles change me for someone I didn't know. I realise every one will come back and wonder how I could let that happen. Well I did and my H MLC woke me up as well. I was unhappy in our marriage in the last few years before BD as H withdrew and we grew apart but I now know that I didn't know how to address this. We were both in a rut and stuck.
Now I don't condone my H behaviour nor his affair. But God willing if we are able to reconcile, my H will see a different person he left and more like the person he married. I am hopeful that my H learns what he needs too to enable us both to be the people we want to be for our future lives together.
xx
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Throughout the past 2 years I have had the time and space to look at the issues raised and decided that I had lost the real me being a wife and mother but I wasn't JA anymore. So my journey is about rediscovering myself and getting to know me again.
The person I am now is the person my H met and fell in love with.
I am hopeful that my H learns what he needs too to enable us both to be the people we want to be for our future lives together.
JA - this is exactly how I feel too. I have been able to rediscover me.
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JA
IMO life molds us into people we need to be i.e mothers, fathers and spouses. These roles impact on us as individuals and I believe those roles change me for someone I didn't know.
I agree that it is easy to get lost in these roles, but tbh, those roles are supposed to change us! There are things about being a mother that made me a better person than I was before. I think you are right that getting subsumed by those roles can make us lose our identity and we sometimes let that happen. On the otherhand (and this is where my analysing is clearly not completed yet), part of me wonders if I would have been less subsumed in the role of motherhood if H was not simultaneously rejecting his role as a responsible and committed father and parenting PARTNER to me? I mean SOMEONE HAD TO BE THE RESPONSIBLE ONE! And it was hard for me to get back to being fun, silly, sarcastic, fly-by-the-seat-of-her-pants S&D while H was in the process of mentally leaving me to be the only grown up in our marriage. So, it was not his fault, but the crisis behaviour in our partners did not help me have a sense that I could just "let go" and "relax". Because no-one was offering to step in and run the house, feed the kids, help with homework, listen to their problems, walk the dog, mow the lawn, fix the light, take out the rubbish, pay the bills, do the school run etc etc. Just a thought...
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Yes JA... Exactly!... I had lost myself as well. very well put.
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S&D, I am with you on this. I could never go back to being the person my exH married. She was young, naive, insecure and pretty self-centered. Getting married and having kids, growing up and learning about and facing all sorts of challenges, including our S13's cancer diagnosis, moving and changing careers three times has changed me--I would argue mostly for the better, but I definitely grew a harder and more cynical edge that I work on, also. I was totally lost in our M and being a parent. I abo$l()tely, positively did neglect him and our M, but holy hell, I needed help and I was not getting it from him.
I have rediscovered me, in part, but I grow and change every day, still, and dating has changed me and taught me more about myself. I think, perhaps, that standing gives most here, OP being a leader, a different perspective on what needs to be fixed. If the only person you know you want in your life is your MLCer, then I guess you do have to change to suit them and consider what they said more seriously since all that has to be healed. We all morph to meet the needs of other people in our lives, that is what relationships are about. I have friends who are totally out there extroverts and when I am with them I can sit back and be entertained. I have other friends who are more cerebral and reserved and they depend on me to be the life of the party. I am neither of the people I am when I am with them, but I am all of that some of the time. If I knew I wanted exH back at all costs, then I would have to find a way to make peace with his mother.
But, I never stood. I said that from the beginning. If he was going to throw our lives out the window, then I wanted to make a conscious choice. When we married, we went on a two year religion shopping adventure that is pretty much the same. In the end we settled on my tradition, but we looked at everything. When this happened, I looked at dating the same way. I have learned there ARE men who can talk about their feelings--including insecurities and fears. I want that. I had no idea how closed H really was and how much I struggled because of it. I also want a man who has friends--H never did and it was too much responsibility to be his everything. I also really want someone who appreciates my talent for entertaining. H was always frustrated because I never had any "hobbies." But cooking and entertaining ARE my hobby and because he didn't like people, he could never appreciate that, and I want someone who can. I recently stopped dating a perfectly nice man because he doesn't like seafood.
My friends think I am being too picky, and I am willing to compromise, but there are SO MANY compromises in a relationship and since I don't NEED one, I can afford to wait for the right bargain. I would never have known what it is was about my M that made me so stunted if I had not started dating, and I fear I might have taken exH back at some point without ever knowing who I really am if I had not opened that door. I would never have given up what I had unless he made the choice. To me marriage and family are a forever commitment. But once he trashed it, I wanted to know where I really stood. I am not closed to the idea of R, but he has to meet me in the middle, I am not walking all the way back to his side again.
There are things the ME I am now needs and deserves and I am strong enough to stand up for myself. The me I was 20 years ago didn't have a clue or a backbone. And I did post this to be somewhat provocative. I often wonder if it is possible to truly do ME work if you are standing--because standing does close many doors of exploration... Just a thought, Lisa
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I don't believe that most of us here want our spouses "at all costs"... I think its more "i am giving it time to see if this marriage is what i really want". A lot of us have constant doubts but because we have children or a length of time together... That maybe we owe it to ourselves to see if this can be salvaged before we go with what society dictates... To automatically kick them to the curb. I myself have filed for divorce and actually today it will be dismissed and not on the books of the court. I never wanted my marriage "at all costs". I wanted the time to make a decision. I feel that is very black or white but really most of us are in the gray.
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I agree that it is easy to get lost in these roles, but tbh, those roles are supposed to change us! There are things about being a mother that made me a better person than I was before. I think you are right that getting subsumed by those roles can make us lose our identity and we sometimes let that happen. On the otherhand part of me wonders if I would have been less subsumed in the role of motherhood if H was not simultaneously rejecting his role as a responsible and committed father and parenting PARTNER to me? I mean SOMEONE HAD TO BE THE RESPONSIBLE ONE!
S and D - extremely good points - Both of them.
Yes, being a mother and also wife, has made me a better person than I was before - you're right - it's meant to.
Also agree - the solo parenting/responsible one starts long before BD, as our partners take ever increasing steps away from us all.
I also felt I had no choice but to pick up the ball.
I guess it could be argued that we could - but I figure my kids are going through enough rubbish - they don't need me losing it as well. Heck - I don't need me losing it either! Although I sometimes feel like it.
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I have been reading and trying to get my thoughts together on this to post.
All I know is if my H wasn't in MLC than I wouldn't be here standing. If this wasn't MLC then the cheating, lying, manipulating would be H just being plain and simple an *sshole!
I would not be loving H and trying to find out everything I can about MLC and being here on this wonderful forum and venting/listening to all of you. So to me that means I MUST love this man to pieces bc otherwise I would have walked away by now. So again obviously they were wonderful, loving, caring people or we wouldn't have fallen in love with them (before MLC).
So I guess my point is that my H is a wonderful man (underneath the mask) and I think he deserves understanding and prayers. So I will be here for him and pray for him and hope he gets through this and I will get through this and WE will both be better people from it and have both learned tremendous lessons in the process. I have learned what I did/didn't do in the marriage and how I can make it better in the future.
Who could ask for more than that.
I may be way off topic but just wanted to post my 2 cents...LOL!
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I have got to wade in here. I have always advocated using this time to TRULY figure out what you want. We have been tossed into this situation, totally against our free will. In my mind, we owe it to ourselves to consider every possible option.
Lisa lives says:
I often wonder if it is possible to truly do ME work if you are standing--because standing does close many doors of exploration... Just a thought, Lisa
Funny Lisa, I found that STANDING protected me! Standing preventing me from rushing out there and getting my echo stroked by a stupid ONE NIGHT STAND, or even worse, let me commit myself to some totally inappropriate person, who I thought was MY WHITE KNIGHT, rescuing me in my distress. Waking up a year later, finding myself with some weirdo, who had stole all my money and was abusive... hehehe (nothing like the worse case scenario eh :o )
I was really quite frightened of what I MIGHT be suckered in to, as I was very aware of how vulnerable I was, how defenseless I felt and how damage my confidence and self esteem had been damaged. STANDING was like a lovely warm blanket, made of Kevlar or something.
Standing gave me time to figure out what I wanted to do. I can totally understand your logic Lisa lives and S&D, perhaps if you had not done the dating thing to any extent before you gave yourselves to your husbands, then this is something you needed to know. I had done the dating scene, I had not ENJOYED it much to be completely honest. I didn't enjoy the games, the 3 date rule, the stuff. I was fairly secure and confident about myself and was not in any rush to get back into what I once thought of as the "meat grind".
Great discussion.
hugs Stayed
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I completely agree stayed.
For a short time before i was open to standing... Everyone was telling me to date and i did. I shortly realized that i could get myself into another situation when i wasn't healed yet and could end up making my life worse... You said it perfectly! I've been on both sides and have done my greatest growth while standing.
OMR
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IMHO in the early days it is quite normal to ask yourself whether what they said about you was indeed true or not... whenever I read threads I've never really see the LBS saying the MLCer's are their enemy, they just wanted to vent and probably get some sort of confirmation that the real reason why they say these things about us is because they are justifying why they have chosen someone else or wanting to be with someone else. I personally would have accepted the situation a lot sooner if in the beginning... she would just say that she is falling for someone else. Because, to be accused of sexually abusing her to relatives and friends took the pain to a different level. To simplify what I am trying to say I would use this analogy:
When I bought my "Boring, but Practical" TOYOTA Corolla 4 years ago and find myself wanting to buy a BMW someday... I should just say to my friends that I just feel like buying a BMW because I can now afford it, and not say that my Old Corolla was not fast enough, or flashy enough, I put up with short comings of this Corolla for 4 years and now I would have the nerve to say it wasn't good. I'm sure my Corolla someday will be attractive to a new owner someday that values the "Practicality and dependability" of a Corolla. Specially now that gas is expensive someone will own that Corolla because of it's 35 MPG.
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And what of the cruelty they dish out? Needlessly, zero reason, for no gain.
Mine (and I think most here) wasn't just a situation of "I don't love you anymore I'm leaving and filing divorce" and having some empathy and kindness in the immediate process. Far from it. For no reason. We were BFF, talking, laughing, going to dinner. Right up till the end. Till BD.
I have to pick one:
1. I married a true sociopath and for 19 years he hid that from me and others and it's coming out now.
2. MLC
OK, How about MLC with a bit of 'lost the love'... but MLC prevents "efforts" to try to save it or even try to go to counseling.
Sometimes I do think my husband is a sociopath. But how could I miss it living with him daily all this time?
So either I think he's a sociopath and mourn the day I met him even more than I do for the rest of my life (and that betrayal)... or I choose to think he 'snapped' (MLC) and is really a good person inside.
But I'd think if it was merely a walk-away spouse or merely haven't been in love for years - there wouldn't be this insane horrible treatment. Offers no gain. Other than making divorce bad for them for retribution for the cruelty.
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Stayed - love it "the meat-grind" thing. Tbh, when I say I am "dating", all I mean is that I have allowed myself to be open to romantic involvement. I have no desire to join online forums, trawl bars and have friends hook me up with their single/divorced friends. I would rather stay at home and knit (really!) and spend time with my kids and friends. But I met someone on a picnic, we became friends, we met to go for lunch and some walks in the park together on weekends when my kids were away. He knew from the first meeting that I was separated and had kids and over time I realised that I like him and he made it clear that he liked me. And during the course of getting to know this person I have had to do a different type of reflection (bear in mind that I have been completely on my own for a year now - well other than for a no strings fling with an old friend for 1 week during the summer :-X ) about myself, my marriage, my view on relationships and my H. Perhaps my inexperience of the world, of men, of relationships all did have a part to play in my marriage break-down. Because we had not forged individual identities before we met. I don't know if I need to explore lots of different relationships, but becoming romantically involved with someone different and new has opened my eyes to certain things about myself in the marriage. I have had to reconsider some views I had about things. Not only that but when you are together VERY young you expect that you KNOW everything about the other person - you tell each other everything, you know each others histories almost like they are your own (because lets face it you don't have a very long life history before 18) and then you ASSUME that you continue to know everything about that person. In a new, older relationship it would seem absurd to expect that I could know and understand EVERYTHING that has happened in his 44 years on the planet. So the starting point is completely different. Anyway, I am not really making a point, just musing...
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I should just say to my friends that I just feel like buying a BMW because I can now afford it, and not say that my Old Corolla was not fast enough, or flashy enough, I put up with short comings of this Corolla for 4 years and now I would have the nerve to say it wasn't good.
We were BFF, talking, laughing, going to dinner. Right up till the end. Till BD.
I have to pick one:
1. I married a true sociopath and for 19 years he hid that from me and others and it's coming out now.
2. MLC
Very well said!!
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And what of the cruelty they dish out? Needlessly, zero reason, for no gain.
Mine (and I think most here) wasn't just a situation of "I don't love you anymore I'm leaving and filing divorce" and having some empathy and kindness in the immediate process. Far from it. For no reason. We were BFF, talking, laughing, going to dinner. Right up till the end. Till BD.
I have to pick one:
1. I married a true sociopath and for 19 years he hid that from me and others and it's coming out now.
2. MLC
Maybe we are all wrong and should pich option one! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
stayed, I think standing does both, protect us both also makes us feel like many doors are closed. Think it has to do with timming, how far into our jorney we are.
I’ve dated, and will do it again in the opportunity present. For me its like for SD “have no desire to join online forums, trawl bars and have friends hook me up with their single/divorced friends”, so dating, for me, it to see a man I like and keep the romantic possibilities open.
What dating has bring me was, like with Lisa, being more picky.
"Not only that but when you are together VERY young you expect that you KNOW everything about the other person - you tell each other everything, you know each others histories almost like they are your own (because lets face it you don't have a very long life history before 18) and then you ASSUME that you continue to know everything about that person. In a new, older relationship it would seem absurd to expect that I could know and understand EVERYTHING that has happened in his 44 years on the planet. So the starting point is completely different."
This is so true, SD. A relashionship started now will be very, very different than the one we've had with our spouses.
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My Dear, dear S&D, Lisa, AnneJ and anybody else that is considering dating. Goodness, me of my, do it! Why in the world should you not? We are not dead, hehehe. All I was saying, was initially, I was way too vulnerable to even consider talking to the opposite sex unless he was a son, brother, husband of a close friend... hehehe... I really was, just too messed up.
Just because I was, does not mean others were in my state. For one thing, all you ladies are much younger then I am/was at that time. S&D, you are only 3 years older then my oldest daughter, I would not want her to curl up into a ball and hide inside her cave. NO! NO! NO! Never, not my girls, or my sons either. I would want them to get busy living.
Bare in mind though and I would say this to my children, there is no guarantee, this could not happen again. If you have not done the whole soul searching, the healing and return to your whole state, happy, healthy and cured, it is very easy to choose exactly the same type again. Or worse yet, go completely OPPOSITE to what you had, assuming that it was the type of person he was, blah blah, blah. There are lessons to learned and if we rush the process, we are no better then our spouses who are keeping house with the first person, who stroked their ego's.
I think all of you deserve more then that. Just go slow and take care. Choose wisely. Don't rush into anything and most of all, don't let ANYBODY rush you.
hugs Stayed
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My Dear, dear S&D, Lisa, AnneJ and anybody else that is considering dating. Goodness, me of my, do it! Why in the world should you not? We are not dead, hehehe. All I was saying, was initially, I was way too vulnerable to even consider talking to the opposite sex unless he was a son, brother, husband of a close friend... hehehe... I really was, just too messed up.
Just because I was, does not mean others were in my state. For one thing, all you ladies are much younger then I am/was at that time. S&D, you are only 3 years older then my oldest daughter, I would not want her to curl up into a ball and hide inside her cave. NO! NO! NO! Never, not my girls, or my sons either. I would want them to get busy living.
Bare in mind though and I would say this to my children, there is no guarantee, this could not happen again. If you have not done the whole soul searching, the healing and return to your whole state, happy, healthy and cured, it is very easy to choose exactly the same type again. Or worse yet, go completely OPPOSITE to what you had, assuming that it was the type of person he was, blah blah, blah. There are lessons to learned and if we rush the process, we are no better then our spouses who are keeping house with the first person, who stroked their ego's.
I think all of you deserve more then that. Just go slow and take care. Choose wisely. Don't rush into anything and most of all, don't let ANYBODY rush you.
hugs Stayed
Thanks stayed. :)
I agree with you, in the initially a LBS is very frail, vulnerable and messed up. We need some time on our own. And, even more down the line, we still need time on our own.
You are right, we need to be careful in our choices. At least for another serious relashionship/marriage. But I think we can date a bit, may even be good, before commit seriouly again. Of course we cannot know if this could happen again. Except, of course, we got someone that already had had a MLC and was years past it, healthy, happy.
Have to say that I think we did choose well the first time around. They did not come with a sign: "will have MLC and wreck everything. Do you still wanna take me?" ;D ;D ;D ;D
Very important the don't rush into anything not let anyonw rushes us into anything.
Hugs
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Bravo Thundarr! excellent posts! The long and short of it all is: MLC is the enemy, not the true spouse who has been bitten by it.
Done. lol, next thread! Lol
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however what MLC'er say do have elements of truth in it.
Of course they have some truth in them. Any human can point at another human and identify their flaws. All humans are flawed. Manipulators and personality disordered people are acutely aware of the flawed nature of humans and they use this to victimise and to control. They use shame, guilt and fear to control others and to justify their selfish, victimising behaviour.
Beware of wolves in sheeps clothing. A MLCer, the one firing the truth darts, is, while firing truth darts, actively engaged in deception and adultery. At the very least lying by omission.
Someone on this thread said that their MLCer's accusations where like a truth dart to their heart. Of course they were. The LBS is revealing that they have a healthy conscience and empathy. They are acknowledging their human condition. They are willing and able to make changes. Self-improvement is possible. The MLCer on the other hand does not do introspection, they do blame and shaming. The disordered personality is not interested in self-improvement, the giving up of self and negative emotions to replace them with faith, hope and love. The MLCer, if they were healthy and had compassion and empathy would diplomatically, with kindliness, with gentleness and encouragement use positive strokes to lead their "flawed one" to a better place. But they do not, instead they blame, they shame, they lie, they betray and they runaway because they are consumed with self-interest.
"The MLCer is not the enemy" is correct but awareness of what the MLCer is, is vital to the LBS' recovery and the LBS' mental health. With our awareness of the MLCer's condition we can have the forgiveness and the "unconditionals" for them and to see them not as the enemy, but like us, flawed human beings.
Awareness is vital. The majority of us here who have been at the receiving end of adultery have been savaged by a wolf in sheep's clothing.
With statements like FOR THEM what you were doing to them hurt them deeply until eventually they hit an inner crisis point. FOR THEM it was bad enough to consider doing what they know is wrong and what makes them internally ILL the original post could be interpreted as shaming and blaming the LBS. It isn't a gentle post leading "flawed ones" (us) to a better place. It comes across as finger pointing and a telling off.
honour
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Wow, Honour, I must say, I believe you have proven your point. You are absolutely right that we do have to be very wary of our MLCer, as they do blame and shame, with a skill that easily fools and convinces us, that what they are saying is ONLY speaking the truth. Oh yes, had that one, up close and way too personally!!!! :-[
This is an extremely well written article Honour. Well said!
hugs Stayed
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Honour I totally agree with what you wrote, very well said.
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Honour
My sentiments exactly. I agree with what you posted.
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BRAVO
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Very nice post and 100% accurate, Honour.
Nice job!
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And yet another thumbs up, way, way up to your post Honour. Excellent.
Bon
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With statements like FOR THEM what you were doing to them hurt them deeply until eventually they hit an inner crisis point. FOR THEM it was bad enough to consider doing what they know is wrong and what makes them internally ILL the original post could be interpreted as shaming and blaming the LBS. It isn't a gentle post leading "flawed ones" (us) to a better place. It comes across as finger pointing and a telling off.
I appreciate your point of view, however, pointing out that FOR THEM it feels (hopeless, like drowning, like suffocating, like you never listened,blah, blah, blah) doesn't mean it is necessarily true.... just that DEFENDING YOURSELF is pointless. MLC perception is fatally skewed, sometimes on purpose so they can leave without guilt, but it is still their perception and MLCers run on FEELINGS. They are essentially flinging poo.
There's really nothing wrong with discovering where you could IMPROVE as a spouse, whether for your current one or for a new one. My husband still projects a lot, when he is ranting.... it gets projected onto me, and many of the things he is accusing me of isn't true and was NEVER true... it might be true about his Mom or Dad or whoever, but it's TRUE about somebody!! He works it out slowly.... knows it isn't about me.... I let it roll off my back.
I find it very hard to believe that anyone on here had a perfect marriage, was a better than average spouse with no controlling ways, and their spouse has NO grounds for complaint. I also believe the marriage issues are separate from the MLC, but contributed to the perfect storm. How many of us now realize how flawed our partners really were? Perhaps THEY were controlling, opinionated, inconsiderate.... People are an amalgam of many isms... some good, some not so wonderful. When they are having a MLC, all we see is their WORST character defects on steroids.
If YOU were the one in crisis, I wonder what YOU would look like with only your FLAWS OF CHARACTER ramped up and taking over your behavior... what would people think of you?
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LG-
I know that when I was going through PPD..EVERYONE thought I was nuts! I was the complete
opposit of who I really was...I thought it was MY life and ALL H's fault..
I told him I needed to find out WHO I was...and that I would be back in 2 or 3 months...to just give me some time... :o
For me, If my mom hadnt stayed on my butt to get help...I think I would have dragged it out for years and years and distroyed my family...I am still surprised my H took me back after what I did.
WE all are not perfect....no one is. This time Honey DID have valid reasons to be upset and hurt. but we still had a pretty good M even though I was "addicted" to prescription drugs..
He was clearly going through MLC for about 3 years before BD...My problems made it even harder for him to cope. AND it also justified his reasons for NY-OW2. But we all know it would have happened anyway IF I had been sleeping with him.
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LG- I think that you can let it roll off your back is awesome cause I can't.
That is where the problem lies....they blame and accuse and I really take it personally. I sit and think "did I really do that, and then question myself". And then I worry that if he spews all that and blames me outwardly to EVERYONE else (family, our mutual friends) then maybe they will believe HIM and I look like the bad guy (and I really hate that). So it makes you totally feel like you are the one to blame when we are not. Very hard to get past but I am working on that one diligently. That's where working on "me" comes in and the issue of worrying what "everyone" thinks would be something I have to work on for myself. It's like an aha moment and you go "i need to work on that one"
And it always a work in progress!
:)
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Honour, just wanted to join the accolades. You summed it up brilliantly.
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I think that (MLC'er is not the enemy) depends on the situation. My H never blamed me for anything I got the ILYBNILY but that was the first day. Then after that yes he was monster but not bc I was or did anything I knew he was monster bc he was doing things that were wrong and he was lashing out at me. Now understand I'm not saying that there wasn't and isn't things that need to b worked on but my H after a few months has always said it was his job he hates his job so much and he said he knew the exact moment when he felt himself change. 2 years ago he had a boss who was horrible who came into his store and yelled and belittled him in front of everybody. Now my H was always the Goldenboy of that company and never did any wrong, the company was bought out 3 years ago and it was a totally different company who could care less about their employees the other company did care about them and showed them how much. so needless to say my H went from being top dog to now having a boss who hated him Literally hated him. He was this short ugly guy that couldn't stand my H bc the boss b4 told this new boss that my H was great just puffed him up to the point that the new boss was just out to get him and let me tell u he did. My H just told me a couple of weeks ago that he remembers that day and when he started feeling different inside and changing, he hated everything from that point on and when I think and look back I do remember and I do remember around that time when he started just withdrawing from the family completely.
But our marriage was still really good besides the fact that my H was at work a lot. But I was use to that bc he always worked a lot, bc he enjoyed it but he enjoyed his kids and me also. I know that the working to much was an issue for the last 2 years bc he was putting in 80 hours a week at a job he hated and a boss who hated him that no matter what he did it wasn't good enough. That rocked his world.
That put a strain on the marriage but I never said anything to him about his hours at all not once bc I knew that was his job and it had to b done. It was something that would need to b changed and that is the biggest lesson my H has learned he said that his job wasn't worth losing everything and he has realized what is important. He now comes home by 5 or 6 everyday instead of leaving at 6 am and coming home at 9pm or later. And the horrible bosses he had 1 was demoted and 2 were fired. He now has a boss who is really nice and is not out to get him at all. He still doesnt love his job like he use to at all but he doesn't hate it like he did for the last 2 years.
So what I am saying is it's not always about the spouse. My H told me and his mom many times that it was him and his job that he neglected us and shoved us away for his job, that his marriage was great, it wasn't me or the kids. This was about him and his issues. He even said this while in Replay. We never really fought at all we might disagree on something but that was what it was we disagreed and we spent all our time together when he wasnt at work. The bedroom was great no problems there at all for 23 years was at least a couple times a week, there wasn't any issues in that department either. We talked all the time and when he was at work he called me all the time and I went and had lunch with him a couple times a week also. We really had a great marriage, not perfect nobody's is but it was great. That is something that is so hard for him to deal with now, bc he feels that I will never b able to forgive him and b back to that.
Well I don't want to b back to that completely I have grown from this experience also I believe that is what this is about too, not just about them it is about us. I am different and I want different things I won't put up with the 80 hours a week anymore or never going to the kids events I will not b a single parent anymore he will get involved or it won't work. He had to learn a lot through this and for him it did he learned that his family was more important than his job. He has been going to all my d15 games which he hasn't been to in I can't even tell u how many years it's been.
My H and I have both changed and It is still an adjustment and he has only been home for about a month and we have been talking for a couple months and he has opened up about everything. We are still in the rough stage bc he is barely been home and he is still in OW withdraw but b4 he went there the talks we had told me a lot. I have learned so much from this and I am happy I have and the things I have learned and the things I have changed about me I wouldn't change it for anything. I am grateful for the changes that have been made there is so much that wouldn't of happened if it wasn't for this and I know that my marriage will b amazing it's worth the struggles to get there that's for sure.
I'm sure a lot of u will disagree but I know my marriage b4 and I know my H and the things we have talked about made sense. I am not saying that there wasn;t things I needed to change bc there was but that was for me not my H. My H had it made before this and he knows it now and he has said it even in Replay that most men and people would do anything to have a marriage like we had.
Well I know now that it will b even better and I can't wait for those day which are right around the corner.
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This is a further explanation of what is meant by becoming the opposite during the changes the spouse of the MLC'er would need to make.
Agree, disagree, whatever you wish; but understand this; I have not written, and do NOT write "misinformation".
You may not understand everything I write when it's written; but I understand that it depends on where one usually is within this trial...and some of you are not very far at all within this, or you would understand why this is necessary during your journey.
Even I didn't understand this concept to begin with; and it wasn't until I lived through that particular aspect that I came to understand it.
I wrote articles on everything I did during my husband's crisis in what I thought was plain english; easily understood; and I watched these same techniques work for others once they were understood by the person who was using them.
It is all too easy to say you're misinformed when you don't understand; or lack comprehension of something you read, because you've not reached that point, just yet.
In way of explanation, I will start at the beginning; and work my way through; in many ways I may add a little too much information; but too much is better than not enough...and this may help you understand WHY this aspect was necessary.
And here we go:
If your marriage/relationship was all it was supposed to be have been, the crisis would NOT have happened at all, or if it had, it would have remained a simple transition; and there would not be all of the physical and emotional running away MLC'ers do on a regular basis.
The only way of getting out of the transition/crisis is by learning the lessons of life thoroughly; and doing away with the dysfunctional ways of relating that are usually developed within childhood, and some issues are suffered in early adulthood; generally with both MLC'er and LBS usually carrying baggage filled with issues they never dealt with until the crisis comes about.
I include myself in this baggage carrying number; I was once there before I learned better ways of relating to people; not just my MLC spouse.
In other words, we would have had to have grown up in clear emotional aspects; catching up with our bodies long before the age of transition/crisis had come upon ourselves. Our bodies grow to adulthood, but many people lag behind in emotional growth due to childhood trauma that causes pieces to break off to be stored within our psyche; these are known as the issues we carry into adulthood. Since children don't have the emotional capacity, nor the mental capability to resolve trauma when it happens; it's actually put on hold for a number of years; until our mental capabilities are matured to a point we can handle the issues as they come forth.
We can be emotionally regressed; but mentally mature at the same time. It had come to me more than once that it's a sort of "compartmentalization" we accomplish emotionally when the issues are stored away; and we don't remember them until the time comes that "triggers" these into our memories.
Even when adult people run away from their issues; they are still capable of dealing with the ongoing cry of their issues, once they stop running. But if a child, even one in puberty, were faced with the same emotional and mental intensity that comes at midlife, their minds would cross over into insanity; and they would be rendered unable to function. So, these " broken pieces" are stored away for a later time.
This would explain the various chemical changes we know happens in the brain at midlife, and it's not ALL hormonal; the change during the emotional crisis is chemically based; resulting in an altered state of mind we see come out within the MLC spouse. Within their minds, they are "reliving" times in their lives related to their issues that must be resolved in order to move forward to the next issue they will face; until each issue, plus the aspects of each are faced in entirety.
Since emotional maturation that comes with the settling of the issues within each person hadn't happened, or was stunted because of heavy trauma at one point or several points either in childhood, or young adulthood, it would not have mattered if you'd been the perfect spouse, or even if THEY had seemed to be the perfect spouse; the crisis still would have happened; as the issues that weren't dealt with or evaded for so long, would still come up to be seen and dealt with.
Some or most of you may still not get the similarities of the journey the MLC'er and the LBS; the journey happens at different times for both; but it's essentially the SAME journey both should take to wholeness and healing.
The idea of the LBS becoming the opposite is learning to experience the opposite of what you had been during the marriage. Once you saw clearly the areas within yourself that needed change, you learned to become the opposite in those areas. But, very similar to the MLC'er this leads the LBS into beginning to examine the total opposite of yourself; and I remembered seeing the BAD of myself, as well as the GOOD within myself.
I saw where I was deeply flawed; I saw the issues within myself; and thank God, I was given the tools to begin to fix myself; and again, quite a bit of this journey concerned becoming the opposite of the person I had once been.
I also saw where I had changed over the time of our marriage from the person my husband fell in love with into someone he had once THOUGHT he wanted; but when a controller and manipulator is successful in "remaking" their spouse into more like themselves; the attraction that brought the couple together initially disappears until it's brought back; like JA had spoken of having returned to the person her husband had fallen in love with long ago.
I, too, had to resurrect that young girl my husband had once been attracted to; not with the qualities I had once had; but with the fun loving and happy qualities that had drawn him to me in the first place.
Over time and years, we really DO get "lost" in our spouse's agendas; often losing our very identities in that process; our individuality; the people we were before we became simply wives, mothers, caretakers; well you get the idea.
This journey is also a time of regaining what WE lost as we were trying to do what we could to please our spouses, but if you're honest when you examine the the characteristics of your spouse before the crisis, you find that no matter what you did, it was never enough....and it's strange, you'll also find that what they did, in many ways, was really not enough for you, either...as emotional needs weren't met in the way they should have been on BOTH sides of the marriage.
That was something else on my journey of discovery I found; I had NO idea that people were expected to meet emotional needs in each other when married. My husband had some vague idea of it; but it wasn't until I found a list and showed it to him that he could articulate what needs he needed met. We each figured out the needs we needed to meet in the other; and you know, I knew, I wasn't getting ANY need met, most especially during the crisis....and his were changing so often, it took some time before he settled on at least 5 that I could meet consistently; this came later once his affair was done, the grieving process done; and he was ready to turn toward me again.
My continuing journey into exploring the opposites brought me to the understanding that I was very capable of doing the same things my husband had done; but it also showed me I had the choice of turning away from these aspects; just as he'd had the SAME choices, but chose to fall to his baser instincts; he had a character fault within him, based on his issues; just as most MLC'ers who fall also contain these same character faults within themselves. This helps trigger a fall to temptation; and rather than stand and fight to come through and back away from temptation; they choose to fall, and in that process, run away from not only their spouses and families, but from God and themselves as well.
I have NEVER advised becoming the opposites as 'dropping your values, morals, etc.' and I have NEVER advised growth and change just to get your MLC spouse back; that was NEVER the intention.
Change is for YOU, not for anyone else; not even your MLC spouse.
To do a complete overhaul in growth and becoming ensures you get every last change that needs to be made within; and this requires total complete self honesty within yourself......
I can truthfully say that I made that complete overhaul; it was the only way I could make sure I made every change I needed to make within.
People who hadn't walked far enough within the journey to understand what experiencing the opposite of what you had been was all about will need to walk further to understand the article I've written.
I never sacrificed ANY of my morals and values during my time of growth and change; part of my own growing and changing really was experiencing my own opposite side of the coin, not to mention becoming the opposite of what I once was in the way of personality.
I would be the first to admit that I was once co dependent, emotionally immature, a pursuer, a controller, a manipulator, to some extent passive aggressive, a true conflict avoider. I also suffered from abandonment issues, and from self sabotage. I had endured a harsh childhood full of physical, and emotional abuse that developed these undesirable qualities within me.
The pattern of emotional abuse continued when I married a man who was just like my dad in personality; my issues complemented and fed his issues; which in turn, contributed to the eventual breakdown of our marriage during his MLC. My husband was drawn to me in the beginning because I "fed" his issues, just as he "fed" mine for all those years before the crisis.
People are generally drawn to what is familiar to them in the way of behaviors, etc; and unknowingly continue various patterns of dysfunctional behavior. They don't know any better; they just go with what they do know.
This perception should undergo a change at Midlife; especially when the crisis rears its ugly head.
My husband's issues were similar to mine; and the fuel that fed his MLC; having nothing to do with me, personally; but since he and I had never learned how to deal with each other as emotionally mature adults; our marriage was also dysfunctional; and there were behavioral patterns within us both that led not only to his MLC; but later to my Transition.
My point again is BOTH of us had serious issues that contributed to the breakdown of our marriage; although my husband was the one that actually brought about this same breakdown with his actions; and he initially refused to work on the marriage.
I got the same kind of treatment as all you have gotten; the only difference was that he got his space from his job, rather than moving out. But, he might as well have gone, because there were many weekends I didn't see him until late Saturday night.
Until the fog within his head began to clear, there was NO reaching him at all; and I can tell you from experience, the harder I pushed, the harder he ran. It was when I started acting the opposite of what I would normally have done(for examples, no pursuit where I would have pursued before, speaking calmly when I normally would have been yelling and screaming, staying quiet, when I would normally have been being too transparent and that list goes on), I saw him start drifting back out of curiosity. As long as I continued to act out in the way he was FAMILIAR with, this fed his justifications for his bad behavior/actions toward me; but when I did the opposite; I effectively took away the fuel for his behavior toward me.
For what it's worth; these opposites I listed are STILL in effect within me; and he responds to them very well. I did NOT change just to get him back; I changed for ME.
As I became, I became someone he really wanted to be around; I did become an honestly happy person; and happy people are a 'draw' or a "magnet". Anger and misery are a repellant, and I learned this quickly.
There did come a time later for accountability; but again, as long as his mind was out to lunch and deeply fogged and confused; negative emotion would have driven him away.
He never did curse me, nor call me names; something in him prevented him from going that far with me; and I sincerely believe that this was one thing he remembered about me; I did NOT tolerate being cursed or called names; this was one disrespectful behavior I didn't have to deal with in him.
But his confusion was very real; and I did see many times he did not know who I was; as he was living within a time before I came into existence. I also saw moments of clarity in his ramblings; but these didn't come up often; and when they did; he would say he didn't understand what he was doing, or why he was doing what he was doing. These were the times I saw him poke his head out of the tunnel long enough to make sure I was still there; he knew me during those times.
The changes in me as he saw them, would bring more and more moments of clarity, as he did not like what he was seeing; he perceived that I was leaving him behind; and he didn't like that; so the controller would come forth, and attempt to squeeze me back into the box he thought he had left me in.
It didn't work, but that didn't keep him from trying. :)
NO, I did NOT date during his crisis; that would have been the first step toward adultery within my own mind; not to mention my husband would NOT have accepted something like that, never mind what he had done.
On the other hand, I could NOT have lived with myself if I had allowed myself to fall that far down; nothing would have justified me dating another when I wasn't divorced from my husband.
The changes I made within myself were instrumental in assisting him in the changes he needed to make within himself; it took me changing to trigger his changes, growth and becoming. Change must start within one to make changes happen within another; and this is so true when it comes to the MLC spouse.
He said later on what happened within him had nothing to do with me and everything to do with him. Yet, he also said that it was the changes I made that drew him back toward me; even though he'd tried to get me to return to the person I had once been because the "old" was more familiar to him than the new.
Yet, in being one step ahead of him, I already knew that to allow the "old" patterns to return was asking for trouble and a repeat of what we'd already been through; and I knew enough to hold firmly to the changes I had made; this in turn did cause and influence him to change and to finally grow up as he was meant to do.
I really like the person I became because of his crisis; I am more sure of myself than ever before; and I'm knowledgeable of the "red flags" of bad behavior; plus I'm comfortable enough to call someone out on bad behavior; knowing I really don't have to put up with crap from people anymore.
I have gained more than I ever thought I lost; in retrospect, I lost nothing; but the added weight of a great deal of luggage that I no longer carry; issues that are long gone, healed and whole; and I have a successful marriage with a man who learned all I learned; and in that process, we both became emotionally mature adults for the first time. :)
The journey I took was a successful one; and it encompassed all aspects of myself, my husband, my marriage; and my life.
I am a successful person; because I completed this journey, and made it out the other side as an individual; and my marriage was simply a bonus, not a means to an end.
I had once thought in the beginning to save my marriage; and ended up saving myself first before I could do anything further within the other aspects of my life; which included my marriage.
My husband is NOT the same person he was before; he's a much better man than he was before the crisis; and I would NOT trade the time spent for any amount of money in the world; as my journey was worth what came in the end.
One final thought; when the bomb was dropped this changed EVERYTHING in our lives; and once I had learned to move forward in order to walk the journey; it changed things even further. Change had already come, trust had already been broken in pieces, our lives had been shattered; and yes, my husband did these things to himself, me and our marriage.
I initially fought what I kept being told needed to happen in the way of growth and change; but once the shattering happened; there was no going back; only forward.
I do realize this is a big time hijack, but you know what? I don't care about that; I did NOT see my husband as the enemy within his crisis; what I saw was a man who was going through an emotional crisis complicated by a number of issues/aspects that he was dealing with....but even that didn't stop me from walking my journey; protecting myself when necessary, and completing my growth; once forced on the path; it all became necessary for me to finish what was started with his crisis.
I had no control over what he did/had done, but I did learn that I could control me; and everything that surrounded ME; and if he couldn't have caught up with me, and become the man that I did, indeed, see him become as a result of his crisis; I would have let him go entirely.
I'd already handed him an open door he wouldn't take; opened a cage door, he wouldn't step through...the only thing left was change for him to grow into and finish. :)
I was already prepared for the possibility that he could walk away at any time; having already learned to have the grace and the love, to let him go completely within the marital aspect; if he had not wanted me considering what I had become within myself due to the growth I had already accomplished within.
But, he didn't walk, I didn't walk, and we're still together; his and my choice were to stay together; and build a better relationship than we had before.
My two cents for what it's worth; and the knowledge of a light at the end of the tunnel that is not a runaway train. :)
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Thank you HB!! I have a question which I guess I am not formulating very clearly, but in a situation like mine and many others on the board, where our H'w or W's have moved out and have been living with the alienator for a year or so, where contact is off n on (not frequent enough to be called boomerang) and we have worked firstly on detachment in ourselves, how do we stop ourselves from feeling so detached, so removed from our previous life, that we do not feel, for all intents and purposes "divorced". My H is living monogamously with OW. He and she have my kids every other weekend. I rarely speak to him and even though I am changing for me and working on me, it is not like he sees those changes. Because I don't see him, I don't witness the confused behaviour very frequently and so often I feel like I am already "divorced" in every way but on paper (and he is working to make that a reality asap too).
I have an underlying sense that it is impossible that he does not love me at all anymore. He loved me for long enough and with enough complexity that I can't believe it has just disappeared forever. That is really the only thing that gives me even the slightest hope, and it is a "sense" rather than anything concrete. I know that I am also going through some sort of transition in this process and I cycle a lot. I try to be still when I can. In terms of dating part of me understands completely why it could be considered adulterous. However it hard to imagine that such a nice man would be offering kindness and friendship to me at this point in my life, when H has been living with OW for nearly a year, if he was not supposed to come into my life for some reason (because I was not looking for romance). My overriding feeling at this point in the process is confusion about everything. Is this MLC? Did H ever love me? What in him was so damaged that having children so significantly changed his feelings for me? Was he not ready to have children but he was SO conflict avoidant he pretended that he was, to make me happy? Did I change so significantly as a mother that I was not loveable anymore? (there was a change in H's behaviour towards me from the time we started a family). I can go back and see where I definitely had faults (I allowed my life to start to be dictated by him, his career and his "plans" from the time I was in my mid-20s and resented it, sometimes not secretly, despite the fact I could have chosen differently, but I did not want to risk the marriage by insisting that I have something my way - ironic really.)
I did a lot wrong, I was emotionally immature (as was he) in many ways. We met young, so perhaps that was inevitable. Still, he broke the marriage and I still can't make sense of how and why he did it - I remember a conversation in 2008 where HE was stating that we were lucky to have such a strong ability to communicate with each other in our marriage. Within 2 years he left saying that he couldnt talk to me and never had been able to, and then mentioned how we had been best friends...
Blah - sorry I am hijacking big time now, but as I said, my life is confusing at this point. Some would say that H is deep in the replay tunnel (BD 13 mths ago), but sometimes I wonder if he is in a tunnel or if he is just done. I know we all have moments like this.... Sigh..
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S&D,
We ALL question our stand; most especially when the crisis has gone on for a length of time, and the MLC spouse shows no signs of returning; and we wonder within ourselves if they really ARE done with us.
There were times when my husband was deep that his actions looked like he was completely done with our marriage; but if that were so, why did he still return home?
Yet, the clear signs I kept seeing, showed me he was in crisis; complicated by sexual addiction; and I had to just move forward with my life AS IF he were going to leave at any minute.
Like you, I had done a great deal wrong; my husband was controlling and manipulative; but I didn't always see what he was doing; and though I sometimes argued with him; I allowed a great many things to pass when I should have stood up for myself, and I didn't.
On the other hand, what your husband doesn't realize is that once he attains HIS divorce; he will be setting YOU free, while he's ensnared himself with this OW he is living with. He further doesn't realize your freedom would be complete; even to the point of cutting all contact with him except where it concerns the children, and he doesn't realize that his access to you would then be limited severely; in spite of the fact that he rarely speaks to you.
It's true he doesn't love you anymore; not at this moment; at least on the surface; he's in CRISIS, remember? They have NO sense of what love really means while within the crisis; and they can't love themselves; so what makes you think they can love anyone else; no matter how they may profess their undying love for their affair partner.
His feelings for you are buried deep within himself; and every time he looks at you; you remind him of his failures. This may be why you don't see or speak to him much.
It's possible that once the children started arriving that it triggered his insecurities about being a father; and this could have pushed him into crisis.
I would NOT say he never loved you; people are where they choose to be at any given time, and I don't think you twisted his arm when the two of you married; there was love there between the two of you, or the marriage would NOT have happened.
Being in transition for you has confused you further; and this is normal; believe it or not; and the changes you make as you know are NOT for him, they are for you; but these are necessary in order for you to apply them either to your renewed marriage or to another relationship IF it should come to that.
I am one that sincerely believes that once a MLC'er is stupid enough to go on and marry their affair; they have closed a door that can never be reopened again. This viewpoint of mine has been questioned more than once; but remarriage opens another can of worms that cannot be closed; and another person has been brought into the equation whose feelings would have to be considered by the MLC'er not to mention that it would be doubly hard for the LBS to start over with the MLC'er should he/she divorce the affair partner upon seeing their mistake.
This is a hard bed with hard consequences; and a MLC'er who would divorce their spouse to marry another then go to the trouble of divorcing them to return to the LBS; in my book, could not be trusted; divorcing one's partner every time you think you've made a mistake is NOT a solution for an ongoing problem within oneself; it only compounds the current problem, and trust issues would always remain for the LBS that might not resolve within them.
That's my two cents on the remarriage of the MLC'er; the affair is usually a symptom, not the whole of the problem within the MLC'er; and second marriages stand a greater chance of divorcing than first marriages; that's usually because within a second marriage baggage has been increased; not just from childhood/young adulthood, but if the issues that led to the divorce of the first marriage are not resolved; these issues will also come up in MLC as well; increasing the burden upon the MLC'er in the way of issues that must be resolved within themselves.
Anyway, the divorce you feel is an emotional divorce the only thing you don't have just yet, is the piece of paper saying you're divorced; yet, continue to work on yourself; EVEN IF your MLC spouse gets HIS divorce. You would not be in any shape to start a new relationship with the continuing of growth you still have to accomplish within yourself, and until you healed completely; and understood completely the various "red flags" of unacceptable behavior will throw up; believe me, you're better continuing to live on your own with the children until you've got your own self together in that aspect.
From what I see, he's still deep within the Replay tunnel; he's still involved with OW; and IF he finalizes a divorce; (and my advice is you don't allow that to happen until you make sure you and the children are provided for adequately); that doesn't mean it's "over" not until he goes stupid and marries her.
Understand, this has nothing to do with you, everything to do with him; and his mistakes or disasters are his own; not yours.
You're not the one who decided to walk away
You're not the one who went and got involved with someone else while still married
You're not the one who doesn't sleep well at night; guilt is a harsh bedfellow
You're not the one who twisted his arm when it came time to marry you
You're not the one who's going to lose the best thing you ever had in your life; he will lose more than he thinks he will gain; while you won't lose as much as you think if he persists in moving on with the OW
Detachment protects what love you have left for the MLC spouse, so you don't become destructive; yet, on the other hand, get on with your life AS IF he won't be returning; live your life for YOU; don't worry about him or your lack of feeling at the moment; this is perfectly normal for you to feel this way about him at this time.
You're still processing the past; and detachment will become very important as you reach the necessary point of seeing him as he really is; and what your marriage was really like; this will be a step where you will see the realities of both these aspects; and you'll need this "seeing" to begin the next phase of your changes; as you'll find your marriage was NOT what you thought it was; I see part of this reality in your post; but there's more to come shortly.
I wasn't as detached as I should have been when I reached that point in my journey; and I had a break down of a sort, as I cried and grieved for what should have been, and it wasn't; and the reality of the perceived loss hit me hard.
I learned later, it wasn't a loss at all; nothing was as it should have been; and it was better that things burned to the ground in the way they did. Granted, I started over with my husband; but the man I started over with was so much different than the man he had been before the crisis that I might as well have started over with another man; the differences were that clear because the crisis had done its work on him that was necessary to bring about his changes into the man he was meant to become.
He's no longer controlling and manipulating, etc. He does his best to care for me; but he no longer tries to control or manipulate me; leaving my decisions up to me; and he doesn't argue with me nor try to tell me what to do. He's more of a "fit" in regards to my needs, and as far as I know, I'm a good "fit" for him, too....he's not complained; and before the crisis, he was a loud complainer about everything especially if it didn't go HIS way. :)
One last thing, your husband's crisis, again, has nothing to do with you, and everything to do with him; and understand it wouldn't have mattered what had happened this crisis would still have happened.
Each of us has our part in the breakdown of our marriages; but we can only fix what pertains to US; it is up to the MLC'er to fix themselves or not.....no one has any control over what they do but them.
If your husband chooses not to return, this is HIS loss; not yours; you'll come to understand why I say that, if you don't already understand; and honestly, you can't worry about what choices he decides to make, as you really cannot control anyone's choices/actions, but your own, and your own reactions.
I hope this help, Sweetie. :)
Love and hugs to you,
HB
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Well said HB and although I know that all of this is written out in so many places here on the boards it is nice to hear you say it again.
I know that it is tedious for you to keep repeating yourself and I totally understand that part.
But know that your words do have a great effect on so many.
I will repeat something I wrote to you a while ago too.
"No you are not a legend but what you wrote is truly legendary"
I think that we are making great strides here with MLC and identifying different contact types.
Jim Conway started the ball rolling and I truly believe that we are keeping it going.
There is so much to learn that it really can be mind boggling.
I know that your understanding is truly amazing.
Anyways thanks for driving by, and I agree with others that it is nice to hear from you every once in a while. I really believe there is nothing wrong with that.
(((((((HUGS)))))))) to you my friend.
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HB-
Its so nice to see your posts again, I truly hope they continue..:) I have missed your words of wisdom and often prayed for your return here..
I love everything you wrote..It makes perfect sense. Always does to me.
Anyway, I do wish you well, Miss you!
Many many hugs!
Syn
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Thank you so, so much HB, your post helps more than I could have hoped for and it made me quite tearful, actually. If you don't mind I am going to copy and paste into a file so that I can read it a few more times and clearly understand all that you are saying.
You really are an amazing person with incredible insight into MLC and also into human nature. Thank you and God Bless!!
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Wow HB
"No you are not a legend but what you wrote is truly legendary"
Truly eyeopening and something I really needed to read and re-read...this is truly helping me get to a point where I want to be in MY journey...
Thanks HB for your truly inspiring words :)
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HB, it is great to read you. If you don’t mind, I would like to hear your opinion on the below.
Like SD I’m divorced in all but paper. Husband left over 5 years ago, has been a vanisher for 3.5 years and we have not seen each other since , except one and briefly (it was a social ocassion), and hardly talk. And when de do it is because of legal/taxes issues. I’m not letting husband get the easy divorce he wanted in which I get nothing and he gets all. I will divorce, no problem with that, but I will make sure all the law grants I will get.
For me he lives with OW2 and, even if they are not married on the paper, it is the same as if they were. He is sharing a daily life with someone else. Anyway, I doubt he will marry OW2 or anyone. He always said he would never remarry, except if it was with me.
He never lived with OW1. Never set up home with her so, there is a difference. I can’t see what is the difference of being legally married with the affair parter or just, set up home, make a life and live with the affair partner for years on end. There has already been bought in another person, that other person family and can of worms was already opened and the underlying problem is already been made worse. If an MCLer will share a several years life and new house with the affair partner it is the same as being married to the affair partner. If they had just lived together for, say, 6 months, that would had been one thing. But almost 3 years? That is a marriage but for the paper.
I know that, once we will be divorced I’m the one that will be free. Actually, I’m already the one who is free. The only thing in what I do not have enough freedom until we’re divorces, is financially (husband wiped clean our bank accounts and has been refusing to pay alimony) but when divorce come what is my by law will have to be given back. Dare to say that this is the reason why he gets those nuts fault divorce process against me, he knows money if the only thing he has to “hold” me. Once that is sorted out I’m gone. Well, I’m already gone but that is still that little detail.
Yes, is a MCLer chooses not to return it is their loss. Even if, we know, sometimes they just return when it is too late.
Hugs
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Anne - I wish there was a "like" button :)
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Thanks, Gutted. :)
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Hello Anne,
I can't say I blame you for making it hard on your husband in regards to the divorce HE wants; yet, from what you're describing, he seems to be wanting to "tie" you to him, keeping you on the side until he's ready to return IF and when he ever reaches that point.
He took all of the money for his own selfish purposes, and is intent on tying you to him in the financial aspect, so you'll always be dependent upon him; classic MLC controlling tactics.
He refuses to pay his alimony; because that might actually help you to get away from him; and again this is a controlling tactic; most MLC'ers don't care if their spouse survives or not; and won't hesitate to cut their legs out from underneath them; this is the state of mind they get into in various aspects.
The crisis, of course, is all about them; and they are intent on coming out ahead regardless of the cost; and this kind of entitlement has cost many a MLC'er their lives; most especially when they "wake up" and realize what they've done; and all is lost to them.
Your husband may be one of the ones who "wakes up" later and sees his total loss; only it would be too late to try and make any amends for the damage he's done. OR, he may be one of the ones who continues to exist within the tunnel of the crisis for the rest of his life....this is why there are no guarantees as to how the crisis will resolve; if, indeed, it does.
You take a chance when you choose to stand; but I also know, and this depends on how your intuition guides you; there can come a time later; once a few years have come and gone; you may receive instruction to begin to forge a different path that leads AWAY from your MLC spouse.
You would have a really good idea if this is the right thing to do; as you would know the situation as it stands at the time your intuition began to deal with and guide you in this fashion.
Now, the time spent standing(even if the marriage doesn't make it through the crisis) is NOT wasted, as long as you used it wisely and to your benefit.
The individual journey that's taken to wholeness and healing still needs to be walked, regardless; this is what I know to be true; otherwise, you'll find yourself in these circumstances once again; only your "lot" becomes harder the next time around.
Anyway back to your husband; his actions are very wrong and controlling for him to be that selfish; he's assuming that you'll just go right along with everything he wants; even to the point of having him back when he's done dallying around....and you know whatever you choose to do is your choice; NOT his; but he's about to find this out, as you represent one of many possibilities; apparently you've decided the he's gone too far with his antics; and you no longer love him; nor want him to return to you.
Just so you know, it's NOT uncommon for a MLC'er to live with the affair partner without marrying them for up to 10 years or longer; whether they divorce their existing spouse or not.
In your case, your husband is NOT "common law" married to his existing OW; simply because he's NOT legally divorced from you just yet. He's still committing adultery against you; regardless of how he or anyone else may see it.
When it comes down to brass tacks, it doesn't matter now what his intentions are or will be; you've made up your mind to kick him to the curb forever once the divorce is final; so now, it only matters how YOU plan to focus on yourself in the future. That's all that really matters at this point; once you've got your financial affairs in order.
Whether you choose to go on with your plans or choose to continue to stand is up to you; but I've sensed several times within your posts that you're actually "done" with him and the marriage; and no hope remains nor love remains within your heart for him.
However your future path may turn out, may God continue to guide your way, light your path; and help you to find a lasting peace; your husband's choices are NOT your fault; and it is unfortunate that you must step to the place to lawfully force him to do what is right by you, his wife.
Yet, this is an example of consequences MLC'ers must face if they are too stubborn to do what the right action is concerning their spouse. We know that if you wish to have another relationship the right thing to do is to let your spouse know, end the relationship properly, process what it was within you that chose to end the relationship; THEN think about getting into another.
Yet, because of their clear selfishness, MLC'ers will do their best to stack and deck in their favor; and if their schemes backfire; resulting in them being completely alone, with no one to be with, this is consequences THEY must face; even if it means the loss of the spouse they tried to not only leave behind; but keep on the side while they pursue their selfish agendas.
In spite of how my situation turned out; I have tried really hard to understand; and get a good grasp of the flip side of the equation; even to the point of asking God to help me understand more.
I hope that what I've written may help you, Anne; I refuse to judge people who choose to walk away from they feel is a point of no return. I don't advise it; but on the other hand, I don't judge it, either.
There are some aspects of MLC that I haven't walked; but watched closely over time; and I've seen so many different possibilities this could reach a possible ending of a sort. You aren't the first one I've seen that has decided to stop standing for personal reasons...whether it be because the damage is too much; the MLC'er seems to be very deeply ensconced within their affair, the MLC'er has taken all of the money; and left the LBS destitute not caring if they lived or died, as long as the MLC'er's agendas were met, having gotten the OW pregnant, or even contracted a sexually transmitted disease, or the MLC'er has vanished for a VERY LONG TIME, and all hope was exhausted in that aspect.
There's more, but it would take me all night to list them all.
What I do know is this: each person's path is as individual as the person walking it, just as the issues that plague the MLC'er are as individual as the crisis they are facing that is tailored to their individual circumstances. One other thing; each LBS KNOWS their MLC spouse better than anyone...and though the Lord may give me various things to say; I don't see all and everything; and it's NOT up to me to actually "tell" someone what to do; I can only put out my opinion, and speak my mind.
What one does after that, is up to THEM, not me. :)
Love and hugs to you, Anne :) You're a very strong lady; and you'll be just fine, regardless of what happens going forward. :)
Love,
HB
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Hello HB,
I did not make it hard, on purpose, on my husband for us to divorce. Before he left, when he begin talking about wanting to divorce (for, by then, no reason In could see why), after BD and during OW1, I thought it was all too hasty. Even if he had already took all our money. When he begun with is divorce papers, first a “friendly” one where I would get nothing that he knew was nothing but blackmail and unacceptable, he rund to court and served me a fault divorce case. My lawyer and I did not contest that one. We let it die. It did die, we remained divorced, I filled for temporary alimony and support. Husband contest it and come along with a second fault divorce process against me, that is still running, even if, so far, no hearing has happened and even if, like first time around, he cannot provide the court with a single evidence of what he claims.
Yes, from what I get he wants to “tie” me to him. The exact same thing he says he does not want, to be tied to me at all. Of course I know the “I will never give you any money” is him wanting to be in control and that, that is the only thing he has left.
The funny thing is that he did not wanted me to be dependent on him. Of course not. Only if he was the one wanting to have me under his control. Yes, I also know that he refuses to pay alimony because, otherwise, I, not only may, but really will, get away from him. And, of course, once again, that is control. And, also, once again that is funny. He does not want to have a thing to do with me, so, why on earth does he minds that I go away? Why does he spends so much time, energy and money fighting in court a person he does not want or care about? Because, well… he is attached. Ironically he is the one that as not let go.
Once more, of course, you are to the point, they intent to come out ahead regardless of the cost. I agree, this type of situation can cost them their lives. The ones that take it to this extreme are the one, I think, that run the risk of trying to kill themselves if/when they come to realize what they have done.
Always knew my husband would be the type that would “wake up” too late. He is the sort of person that does learn with his mistakes but only when he totally falls flat on the floor. Must say I have a little concern he may forever get stuck into the tunnel…
In my case, situations, and personal choices, since after a couple of years from the beginning of the crisis, started taking me in a path that leads away from my husband.
Yes, the intuition thing is very right. No, no, the time spend standing (even if the marriage does not survive) is of uttermost importance. Should say it was really fundamental. Including all the mistakes I did during the standing, both regarding husband and my personal things.
My husband has really been doing a lot o extremely wrong and controlling things and, yes, I believe he thinks he can come back in the end, as if nothing had happened. I not going along with his divorce plans, where he gets it all, was a hugely upsetting to him.
Yes, he has gone to far (at least that is my current position) to be back. I love him. In the sense of the fondness you have for an old friend that has choose all the wrongs paths and done all the wrong things. But I don’t think it makes any sense to have him back after all this. Setting up a home and life with OW2 and the second court case against me were going to far. Yes, I know, he is in MLC and he is on the middle of a deep depression, with huge chemical unbalances in his brain and maybe hormonal changes as well. He is forgived but in no way I condone his actions.
I know he is in no “common law” marriage with OW2. And yes, he is still commiting adultery. So, legally he is giving me a very good reason for a fault divorce. And he is making it easy, he said that the address he presented the court, in his second divorce was the one of his current “companion”. Really, current companion? A still married man?...Yes, he may want me to be upset with that. Or OW2 may be a narcissist that needs to show me that she exists…Whatever the option, I left it to my lawyer to deal with it. Did not make husband a single question nor talked to him about the situation.
I already know what I’m going to do in terms of personal projects when the divorce is final and my financial affairs are in order. And I don’t mean in terms of having a boyfriend or remarry, I mean real personal projects. They involve research in a few topics I’m interested in that also are connected with my family history.
With the marriage I’m totally done. With him as current husband as well. I may not, in the future, not be done with him as a friend. But that is the future.
I have love, in the way I explained above. And I have a little hope that my old friend manages to get out of the tunnel (that is no place to be even for my worst enemy, if I had one) but that is pretty much it.
Tottaly agree, this are some of the situation a MCLer can find itself into if they are too stubborn (and my husband, mora than stubborn is obstinate, he only stops when crash comes) and refuse to do the right thing towards their spouse.
And, yet, and I know this is going to sound totally contradictory, something in me tells me that, once divorce is final, after some time as passed and he realizes I’ve moved on without him, he will “come ou” of it, and may, in fact, became a good friend. But he will not “come out” unless he finds himself divorce and at total loss. Sad, I know.
Thank you so much for your words and advise, HB.
Hugs
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Anne - Are you saying he took 'all' the money/assets? Are you able to get it back and can he actually come up with it if/when ordered to?
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Anne - Are you saying he took 'all' the money/assets? Are you able to get it back and can he actually come up with it if/when ordered to?
Yes, he wiped the bank accouts clean and even took my atm and credit cards along (he was very violent that they). Our assets are cultural joint projects, they have a value that also needs to be split. When he left they were broken (they depend of the criativeness of both of us) so he must be give half of how much they are worthy.
Well, he needs to return my share. Plus pay alimony and a settlement/compesation for the break of the marriage. Don't know if I'm able to get ir all back but part, yes. Can he come up with it if ordered to? I would have to say maybe not. Don't now for sure. His grandmother died and he inherit (don't know how much), so maybe he has founds. Problem is, he inherit while we were still married, half of his inheritance is mine.
He has no idea of the touble he got himself into. He was already ordered to pay alimony and he refused. If he will not pay the court will seize any assets he has just of himself (he has some property from before we were married) until he pays what he owns. He may also be forced to sell is before marriaeg assets if he does not manage to come up with my share of the money.
He is beyond lost. Also, he, like many MCLers, is a big spender. By now he had spend tens of thousand, if not in the hundreds, of euros. With himself and OW1, but more OW2. House, things for the house, clothes, shoes, presents for OW, traveling around europe and vacations with OW, gadgets, dinners in fancy restaurants, etc., plus court fees and, of course, there is still all the money he has to give back.
He has 3 jobs!!!! and very little rest! What a great life, right? ::) NOT!| ;D ;D ;D ;D
Some MCLers do manage to ruin it all. Like HB said, even themselves.
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Anne,
I never said you made it hard on your husband on purpose; his actions actually forced you to have to make the financial aspects of this divorce hard on him; if that makes sense.
For every action there is a reaction, and for every action there is a consequence.
If he'd been willing to do what was right by you; financially, you would not have had to use the law to get what you are entitled to because of having been his wife for so long.
I've often read about how easy it was and is to get a divorce; and it didn't used to be that way; husband's and wives were held accountable for the treatment of their spouses; at one time it was not easy to get divorced; the criteria back in the day was quite strict; not like now. It seems to me, things have gotten worse and worse as time has gone on.
Sometimes, the LBS is called upon to deal out consequences toward the MLC'er' because it should NEVER be easy to just slide out of a marriage and leave the LBS destitute with nothing. Your willingness to stand firm and to call him to the carpet of accountability in that way; was what had made this harder on HIM; not necessarily on you.
And when you get done with him; HE may the one who's destitute NOT you.
That's neither here nor there; I had a strong feeling you already knew what I might say; but needed it to be said anyway so you would have confirmation of having done the right thing in your own situation.
And, yet, and I know this is going to sound totally contradictory, something in me tells me that, once divorce is final, after some time as passed and he realizes I’ve moved on without him, he will “come ou” of it, and may, in fact, became a good friend. But he will not “come out” unless he finds himself divorce and at total loss. Sad, I know.
This is not contradictory nor surprising; PRIDE and ARROGANCE are two of the biggest obstacles a MLC'er will face; and these will often prevent them from admitting their mistakes.
Yet, the total loss your husband will face, I believe will include his OW2 kicking him to the curb completely, given some time....in other words, he'll have to find himself completely divorced from you, bereft of money; and his "current companion" will walk away from him as well; apparently he will lose everything before he awakens; IF he ever does awaken; there is always the chance he may NOT awaken; and even IF he awakens; it's still up in the air what he may do after that, Anne.
Remember he will still have choices to make; just as you have choices as well.
In everything we face; a choice will always exist.
Take care of yourself. :)
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HB,
Yes, it makes sense that the financial aspects of the divorced made me made things hard on him. Or better, as you said yourself, he is the one who made them hard on himself. Had he be willing to do what was right no need of bring in the law or be hard.
I’m not finding it any easy to get a divorce. What I feel is that, in general, most people (not talking about the people here in the forum) out there stop getting the relevance of a husband to behave fairly with a wife or vice-versa. Like if it is wrong to have your legal rights meet or that, “ah! Well, what is the problem, everybody gets divorced this days. He/she is just following his/her happiness. You know, people fall in love…”…
Grant, people fall in love. People have affairs. People want to be happy (have the right to be). None of those things equals spouse mistreatment or abandonment.
“Sometimes, the LBS is called upon to deal out consequences toward the MLC'er' because it should NEVER be easy to just slide out of a marriage and leave the LBS destitute with nothing. Your willingness to stand firm and to call him to the carpet of accountability in that way; was what had made this harder on HIM; not necessarily on you.” Could not agree more.
Don’t want, nor need, to have him end up destitute, just because of revenge. But what is mine, must be mine. Yes, there is the possibility he will end up being the one financially destitute, not me. Because, the way I see it, he is, at the moment (and since he got involved with OW1) the one morally and emotionally destitute. He is even on happiness bankruptcy. So, in my view, he has it must harder than me. My problem is just a money one. In time that will be sorted out. His are of a much greater order. And he is the one that needs to solve them.
Yes, I already knew it. But, yes, need it to be said to have confirmation I’ve done the right thing. I knew I have. My lawyer has agreed with my decision, so have my family and very close friends.
If he, and others MCLers, will, at least when out of the tunnel and able to process, not cast aside pride and arrogance, life will not be smooth. Nor will the emotional turmoil go away.
Think there is a possibility that the “current companion” will walk away before the man finds himself divorced and bereft. It may only took her to see things starting going south on the money/divorce agreement department. Or maybe she will stay on his side till the end of his divorce…Or even maybe he will turn against her and star saying “this is all your faul. You’ve got me the lawyer (husban’s lawyer is a friend of OW”, said it was alright to use your address…”
There is however one thing that I think makes it more difficult for husband to get out of the tunnel, he become quite “famous” and “successful” in his new jobs line. He is “the MAN”, there are lots of people (who did not knew us and know nothing about the real he) that think he is great, he is a sort of underground rock star, so, the adrenalin that comes with all that attention, coupled with MLC is a lethal cocktail. His “success” and “fame” and the perks that come with it, make him a magnet for any OW. OW2 does not want to loose any of that. So, she may give a fight to have him keep all his status and help him not give me any money. But, anyway, that is their problem. Think they will end up having some lovely fights and all will come crumbling down.
Yes, I will take very good care of myself.
Hugs and thanks so much, HB
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Going back a few posts, I think HB (great to have you back!! Love ya!!!!!!) may have been referring to my comment about becoming the opposite. In my witch, part of my W's falling into shadow involved changing political parties and views, turning her back on our faith and de-prioritizing parenting. SHE became the opposite of who she was and my comment was simply stating that I would not do those things even if it meant that we D. I would. Ever stop being true to myself.
What HB explained was similar to what MWD calls the 180, and I HAVE done that. In fact, I think that's why my W is so comfortable with me now. I hope it pays off in the future, but I know it's mainly for me and it really has helped.
Apologies to both OP and HB for any miscommunication.
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There is however one thing that I think makes it more difficult for husband to get out of the tunnel, he become quite “famous” and “successful” in his new jobs line. He is “the MAN”, there are lots of people (who did not knew us and know nothing about the real he) that think he is great, he is a sort of underground rock star, so, the adrenalin that comes with all that attention, coupled with MLC is a lethal cocktail. His “success” and “fame” and the perks that come with it, make him a magnet for any OW. OW2 does not want to loose any of that. So, she may give a fight to have him keep all his status and help him not give me any money. But, anyway, that is their problem. Think they will end up having some lovely fights and all will come crumbling down.
AnneJ, I think this kind of fame and validation could make it harder for you H to get out of the tunnel (it may alter time frames). However, NOTHING lasts forever. And if you look at the lives of many successful/celebrity situations, fame and fortune often brings lonliness and sadness in the long run (even for someone not in a crisis). People find themselves surrounded by sycophants and never know whether people are around them for themselves, for their money, for their status. Many people lose themselves and their sense of who they are, and find that fame and fortune feeds the ego, but leaves the "soul" (for want of a better word) bereft. Not only that but fame is a fickle friends, for some people it lasts, for most it ends and often when it is least expected and that can bring on a whole different set of concerns. So, I do think that it complicates matters for you because he is getting a lot of external messages saying that what he is doing is just fine but I do not think this validation is the same as having internal peace and contentment. Furthermore, if this IS the source of his happiness and he never wants to come back then you have had the opportunity to see what sort of superficial and/or damaged person he truly is and to be glad that you do not need to cater for that for the rest of your life.
Yo
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Going back a few posts, I think HB (great to have you back!! Love ya!!!!!!) may have been referring to my comment about becoming the opposite. In my witch, part of my W's falling into shadow involved changing political parties and views, turning her back on our faith and de-prioritizing parenting. SHE became the opposite of who she was and my comment was simply stating that I would not do those things even if it meant that we D. I would. Ever stop being true to myself.
What HB explained was similar to what MWD calls the 180, and I HAVE done that. In fact, I think that's why my W is so comfortable with me now. I hope it pays off in the future, but I know it's mainly for me and it really has helped.
Apologies to both OP and HB for any miscommunication.
Thundarr,
While you have it correct on the post of yours I was referring to, some of the 180's that are done(for example, I became "weak" for a time to meet his need to be needed, but that changed back later, as this particular need in him changed to something else, and this was a temporary 180, but not something that became permanent) by the LBS are used as coping mechanisms to help them deal with the opposite behavior of the MLC'er; as they really DO, for a time, become the opposite of what they were before; creating a stranger within the person you once knew.
This opposite negative behavior within the MLC'er does NOT last forever; in many ways, many aspects, once the crisis does some deeper work within them, the MLC'er will begin the process of trying to return to the person you once knew; but not completely, as the crisis WILL change them if they allow the process to do its work on them.
Between that and the changes that SHOULD occur within the LBS during this time; a new person will emerge from the metamorphosis that has taken place during this trial; with very little, IF any still exists, of the old remaining within them.
I've seen LBS' that walked away because they didn't like the result that emerged...and I suspected this was because the LBS did NOT do their part in whole as they were supposed to do.
I've also seen LBS' who changed JUST to get their MLC spouse back; but when the facade was dropped; the MLC'er was the one who walked away.
The MLC'er, though deep in crisis is NOT dumb, stupid or that easily fooled. Something deep within them KNOWS change must occur; even though they are frightened and fighting this tooth and nail; evident of the running they behaviors they are engaged in.
If one or both refuses to succumb to change, more bouts of crisis are in the future.
One cannot stick their head in the sand and do nothing; in the hopes this will just go away; it must be navigated thoroughly; the only way out is THROUGH; there are NO shortcuts to be had.
Change that triggers growth and maturity MUST be PERMANENT, and not effected just to draw the MLC'er back....I do NOT advocate changing just to get them back, and then return to the "old". This will NOT work! Any positive change needs to be permanent within you.
The CRISIS DEMANDS GROWTH, CHANGE, AND BECOMING within BOTH people; not just the MLC'er.
As long as issues remain within the person in crisis; change and flux continues within their psyche; I can tell you this from having seen this first hand. It is possible to make some decisions, resolving some issues in a short term, setting others aside for the longer term; depending on the severity of the crisis.
In short form; as they face, resolve and heal their various issues; they will no longer use the wrong kinds of defense mechanisms they once used to cope with their life and marriage as a whole.
Some change comes about within them because of the work they do within themselves during their journey. MOST of the change, however, comes through the influence of the LBS whose journey is linked to the MLC'er's.
If you are honestly facing your own issues; resolving and healing these within yourself, making changes within, as this continues to change YOU, you should trigger further positive change within them; causing them to grow in ways they never had before.
And THAT is after they fight what's unfamiliar to them; it takes time for them to notice the change; more time for their responsive change to occur....no one likes change; but if you want a better marriage out of this; you'd best prepare and don your armor; you won't get it without a fight.
It takes the change within one to trigger change in the other. As you deal with your own damage, this actually causes you to incorporate opposite changes within yourself..what was wrong before becomes right; and the balance within yourself gets achieved; causing positive growth within yourself.
This all leads to the "becoming" I have written about many times..and this is a spiritual aspect of the crisis. When one person changes something in the relationship it really does affect both people; and there is always a chance that one or even both people will decide to walk away before it finishes in whatever way it's supposed to go.
Regardless, it would behoove each and every one of you to examine yourself closely; and begin the journey within yourselves; getting the focus OFF the MLC'er and truly onto yourselves as individuals.
During the journey to wholeness and healing; you really DO experience the true opposite of yourself; furthermore, seeing the damage within YOURSELF due to the issues contained within YOU that fed the issues within the MLC'er during the marriage that is now dead and gone.
As I said before, I did a complete overhaul of myself; once I knew the areas within me that needed changing for good.
As I changed, he changed and moved forward, as our journeys were indeed linked together
There was always the possibility that he could have walked away at any time; but I was indeed prepared for this ahead of time; knowing that I would be just fine, regardless of whether he stayed, or whether he left.
His journey honestly did become about ME...and my marriage became a BONUS, rather than a means to an end.
You could say I endured this journey twice in various aspects; as I survived his MLC; PLUS my Transition; and I saw other aspects within my Transition that I didn't see during his MLC.
I navigated mine completely and totally; and this took time; but it changed me for all time; and I got EVERY issue and aspect of each issue within me.
It was the ONLY way I was able to emerge completely whole and healed; with NOTHING left over or set aside. I came out only to find my husband was still NOT finished; but that's another story.
If I had not taken the journey in whole; I would have NOT become the person I am now; neither would I have been given all I was given to write, etc.
From the place I stand now, there were many things I could not see when I walked in the shoes, and on the path you are walking now; but I see the whole picture, and why I was called upon to do all that I did; endure all that I endured, and I even see why he took the detours he took...without these additional events; I would not have had the understanding I attained from having that experience.
Get the focus OFF your MLC spouse; get it on YOU; if your marriage survives this crisis; that's great, if not, you should be fine with this, as well.
When you were placed on the road that was NOT of your own making, it became about YOU; just like the crisis is all about your MLC spouse.
Time is what you have been given; choices have been placed before you; use both wisely; as there are NO time limits on how long this will take; and you have a great deal of changing, growing and becoming to do.
So, once you figure out what is happening; and gain some understanding; along with a few answers to your questions; which is enough to increase your understanding for now....GET ON YOUR JOURNEY; and don't look back in that aspect.
Life as you once knew it is GONE; and this will NOT return, not now, not ever.
Don't waste the gift you've been given; and this is a TRUE opportunity to learn who YOU are; as YOU are the only one who can change yourself. :)
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HB...I think you just answered a question I had posted a while back about my H's MLC.
Maybe you could actually answer the question...LOL!
Brief History: H first left in 2005 (I actually didn't think it was a crisis back then...just him leaving cause he didn't love me anymore) but as I look back now it is all making sense to me. Got together with an employee of ours (10 years younger)
and moved in with her...spent tons of money all the symptoms were there but I never would have thought it was MLC back then as he was only 32. I read alot of books about how to fix your marriage and made some changes within myself.
H and I reconciled in 2006 and then moved back in together a few months later. Had our 2nd child...my mom passed away and 6 months later H's dad passed away we almost lost our house and then H left again in 2009. OW #2 is again an employee (10 years younger) and the similarities continue.
So I guess my question is.....was H in MLC previously and then what happens in between (we had 3 years of being back together)
My guess is we didn't do the necessary work needed to hold on to the marriage and get through all the bad times but I was really looking for another perspective....
Any guidance you have would be muchly appreciated
Affaircare, sorry for the hijack!!!! :)
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Crazy I am not HB (God knows) but I think it's : He's in Replay still got interuptted and went back to it. Looking for happiness in external places. Or should I say looking for avoidance and escape in external activities. ::)
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Maybe you could actually answer the question...LOL!
Brief History: H first left in 2005 (I actually didn't think it was a crisis back then...just him leaving cause he didn't love me anymore) but as I look back now it is all making sense to me. Got together with an employee of ours (10 years younger)
and moved in with her...spent tons of money all the symptoms were there but I never would have thought it was MLC back then as he was only 32. I read alot of books about how to fix your marriage and made some changes within myself.
H and I reconciled in 2006 and then moved back in together a few months later. Had our 2nd child...my mom passed away and 6 months later H's dad passed away we almost lost our house and then H left again in 2009. OW #2 is again an employee (10 years younger) and the similarities continue.
So I guess my question is.....was H in MLC previously and then what happens in between (we had 3 years of being back together)
My guess is we didn't do the necessary work needed to hold on to the marriage and get through all the bad times but I was really looking for another perspective....
MammaBear is totally right in one aspect when she says this:
He's in Replay still got interuptted and went back to it.
Since neither one of you made the necessary changes; AND your husband didn't address the issue/character fault within himself that drove his affair; his emotional crisis was put on hold for a time; but returned, and so, he picked right back up where he left off.
Looks like his dad's death tossed him right back into his emotional crisis that started just before 2005. He was young at 32; usually MLT/MLC hits between the ages of 35 and 55; sometimes a little earlier; sometimes later; depending on the person going through.
But, an emotional crisis can hit at any time; and there are still issues that need to be resolved, and if these aren't resolved; they will return at Mid Life.
Each person is different; just like Menopause and Andropause hits differently for females and males; what comes for one, doesn't come for the other; and what one will do, another won't....these events are as individual as the individual going through.
When my husband was 33, he and I experienced something similar three years before his MLC..his mother died in 1996, throwing him into an emotional crisis. During that time there was no opportunity to get into an affair; but I got all of the treatment associated with MLC.....he loved me but was not in love with me, he treated me like I had the plague, there were times he couldn't get close enough to me, other times, he pushed me away and hard.
This went on for six months; and when we came out of this; NEITHER one of us had learned anything; and so three years later a month after he turned 37.....VOILA! We got hit and hard; only this time, he had an accident that resulted in a fatality...it wasn't his fault; but that didn't matter...it put him into a total nervous breakdown that led to his MLC.
I knew next to nothing for well over 2 years, and the bomb that hit me was discovering he was into porn, which led to also discovering his affair...he was deep within Replay when both of these discoveries took place.
For what it's worth, the bomb drop usually comes once the MLC'er is deep within Replay...they either get caught doing something they shouldn't, cannot keep up appearances any more,(the mask they wear begins to slip down), shame and guilt eats them alive, or their ever increasing disrespect for the LBS drives their desire to make them hurt like THEY are hurting; or the pain within them reaches a point they feel like they must get away or die trying.
From what I also understand the MLC'er's inability to make decisions also can trigger them to drop the bomb in the hopes the LBS will be angry enough to throw them out, making this kind of a decision FOR the MLC'er; but this is a double edged sword in that if the LBS gives over to this; they are the ones who take responsibility for the MLC'er's leaving, rather than leaving that decision on the MLC'er's shoulders; therefore they ALSO bear the whole of the blame in that aspect.
It can also increase the possibility the MLC'er won't return IF the LBS is the one who throws them out initially after bomb drop.(Read the above sentence again and thoroughly; I want NO misunderstandings to come out of this)
There again, some will come crawling back; some, because of pride, arrogance, and the inability to face themselves will never return. You never know what will happen when you make a life changing decision for the MLC'er by throwing them out.
Yet, even if they leave on their own; it is STILL possible they might not return for various reasons; NONE of which would be the LBS' fault....remember what people do has everything to do with them, and nothing to do with the person it's done to.
Heck, I nearly did it myself; but I had to be talked off the ledge in a hurry; if I had thrown mine out, he would NOT have returned at all.
I knew him well.
Yet, I found in the longer run that it was better to deal with him in the way I did....his space was gotten with his job; and he saw more clearly first hand, the changes I was making within myself....and I wanted to be married IF that were possible; but was brought to the understanding that if that wasn't to be because he didn't want it; my journey STILL had to be taken.
Ok, I've jumped off topic here...and the hijacks grow taller, LOL!!
I hope that answers your question Crazy for Him. :)
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SD, My husband not noticing what sort of trap, and what kind of people he was becoming surround with, were things I found very strange and that told me something was wrong with him. Both of us, since we meet (and before, on our own), have always had status on the world we moved him. As couple, and after all the joint projects we created, that status grew. He knew all the pitfalls and always stayed away from all the more fuzzy side of it, quite keep to each other, selected few long time friends and family. However, my husband started to move from our artistic/cultural/intellectual world towards a more clubbing/bar scene/discothèque world. Of the people that are, now, around him, 95% never knew us as a couple (part of them even only turned up after OW1), 4% knew us and know his name, but are unware of the all situation between us. They knew us but they were not close friends, just people who could recognise our name, the remaining 1% are some friends (but not the real close type) that new both of us, know we have separated but also do not know the details of current circunstances. He is surround, just like you said, for sycophants. And, since he left/after BD, I’ve always told him two things: 1) OW1, or any other one that comes along while you stay in that world is only interested in what she can get for herself, she is not interested, nor loves you. if the fame and money are gone, so she will be; 2) You’ve lost your soul. There’s a void in you. It will not be filled with that lifestyle.
An old friend (that knew me since before I started to date husband and husband since he started to date me), that has been married, lost track of us and, at the beginning of this years, found us through FB, told me “he is very lonely and depressed”. I said “well, he has OW2, all that bunch of admires and never wanted to do a thing towards the depression”. She said “sometimes, when people are in that state they are not capable of helping themselves and everyone gets advantage of them”, my reply “I know but there is nothing I can do. He has to find it for himself and hit the bottom”. She agree but said what you’re saying, he is going to be even more lonely when the fame fades. My family is of the same opinion. The few people that truly love and care for him know that he runs the risk on ending up without nothing, maybe even, when it happens, trying to kill himself. The fame/success is a risk for almost anyone, for an MCler, all the worst.
After I write my last post on this thread last night I though about Amy Winehouse. She had it all, didn’t she? Fame, money, a family that loved her, millions of adoring fans and, yet, she was utterly unhappy. Rehab did not help and, well, now she is dead.
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HB - thank you for the very concise answers to all our questions!! I do have one about something you wrote though. You mentioned that anyone can have an emotional crisis and that the behaviors are similar, so how do we know the difference between that and MLC? Also, your assertion that BD happens when they're deep in Replay is contradictory to most here, but I totally agree based in my own sitch. Given that, how long does Replay usually last post-BD?
Sorry to continue to hijack, but we've all been in HB withdrawal!
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Thanks HB...when I did some soul searching of my own and really looked back, that's when it hit me. That his MLC started way back then, but I had no idea at the time of what I needed to do for ME. I think all the changing I did was for H.
Thank you so much for clarifying that for me...it was a short time the first time- we were only apart for 10 months so now
I'm wondering if this makes it harder for them since they have left TWICE now and 2 OW's.
He has convinced himself that we got back together once and it didn't work...how on earth would he think it's going to work
the 2nd time around???
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Thundarr, I'm not HB but think BD is already with them in replay. How deep I cannot say. From my husband's letters to OW1, ad the more and more stange behaviour he was having home, it is creal for me replay had already started. Very mild, at the time, butv already there.
HB, and what happens when the spouse leaves (no BD yet), and you are told) about other person by an anonymous phone call? That was my BD. Then husband told me he was planning to only let me know about OW1 a few weeks after he had left. He wanted to pretend they had meet after he left and fall in love. Problem was, whoever called me told me what he was planning to do, where that supposed first meeting was going to be and when. Husband said, I did not wanted you to find this way. I did not wanted to hurt you. There was no need of you knowing, to you it should had only started once I was out of home.
I told him that, given who OW1 was I would start to put two and two together and would know it had started before. Monsters and replay become much, much worst since he and OW1 went public. After the anonymous phone call he decided to assume her, a few more weeks after, and marked a day to made her public presentation has his girlfriend. Nuts, I know... ::)
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BD is the start of replay or very soon after Replay begins. Not true in ALL situations...but true in most.
Regarding how you find out.....either the LBS gets the speech or the MLCer's affair is "found out" - sometimes by the MLCer's own self sabotage. The MLCer wants to get caught. How else would someone else know that much about your H's "plan?" Why tell anyone? If they are "found out" then they can pretend it happened by accident.
For me, my H wrote emails to his ex-wife proclaiming his love and his plan to divorce me - 2+ months prior to BD. He then printed these emails out and put in them a drawer in the garage. Why would he do that? The emails were sent from his work address. There was NO way I would have ever found out about them. He would be still denying it...if I hadn't found the emails, 6 months after he left. I can only guess, like your H, mine wanted to leave me - then later hook up with his ex-wife - like it had
just happened. Like, surprise!
After BD - there is really nothing left to hide. The MLCer can just go hog wild - living his/her life of wild, indulgent fantasy. What held my H back, I'm guessing, was his attempt to try to still look like the "good guy" - who just left because he no longer was happy. Not because he was a lying, cheater.
He still wanted the kids to respect him........
L
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limit, Always thought they wanna by caught. Mine still wanted to be the good guy after BD. I want to be happy (is motto before BD), I need a new life, I need space...But the was also capable of saying "I know now I'm the bad guy. I did not wanted to drag any of the two fo you into this". At the time had no idea why he was bothered to had dragg the two (I and OW1) into that. Now I know, she had wrote him, couple of months before he left, that she was fighting for their love. That, because of thar, and to allow him to see her, she had to compromisse her values. That she hoped he did not let her down, since it was very hard for her to let go of her values. Husband said he did not wanted her to give away her values for him, that he, as well, was having to set aside is values do to what he has been doing. Think he saw it like: This is the great love story ever, we both overcome it all, our values, my marriage... ::) ::) ::)
Never found out who phone me telling about the two fo them. Husband said that only he and OW1 knew about his plans. Given that it was a man that phoned me, someone else knew. Husband used to phone OW1 from his work (found this many years latter on their letters), so maybe someone from husband's company. Or maybe OW1 asked for the call to be made. He always said, it was not her, and somehow, I believe it was not her idea.
But, yes, they do want to be caught. Why? Don't really know.
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Anne,
MLC man at my work had naked photos of OW on this work cell phone. His wife (ex-wife) found them. He definitely wanted to get caught - even if it was sub consciously.
If I were a betting woman (actually, sometimes I am) I would say OW had someone call you and tell you. Theirs had been a clandestine affair, right? She was probably pressuring him to leave you. They probably had plans...that he had chickened out on. She wanted to force his hands. Just a feeling that I have.
My guess is my H's ex-wife really wasn't that interested, but told him that she couldn't be responsible for breaking up a marriage and a family (Catholic through and through). So, she cut him off. He had to prove it to her that he could do it. Leave me. Leave the kids. It took him 2 1/2 months after his emails to tell me and another 2 1/2 months after that to walk out the door. I don't think she gave him the time of day after he left. She wasn't interested.
I think it is "easier" for them if they just get caught. They don't have to bring up the "courage" to Bomb Drop you.
JMHO.
L
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Ok Thundarr,
I copied this from what I had written as the third stage of a MLC..and I will BOLD where I assert that the BOMB is DROPPED during REPLAY. The MLC'er is already within the tunnel when they "bomb" the LBS...the first couple of stages pass almost without the notice of the LBS except for odd behavior observed.
I have NOT seen this particular aspect change in any way.
HB, and what happens when the spouse leaves (no BD yet), and you are told) about other person by an anonymous phone call? That was my BD. Then husband told me he was planning to only let me know about OW1 a few weeks after he had left. He wanted to pretend they had meet after he left and fall in love. Problem was, whoever called me told me what he was planning to do, where that supposed first meeting was going to be and when. Husband said, I did not wanted you to find this way. I did not wanted to hurt you. There was no need of you knowing, to you it should had only started once I was out of home.
Again the bomb is dropped during Replay; and Anne, to answer your question; it is entirely possible to be bombed through discovery; and you, like me, recognized the aspects of Replay, as it was happening. Apparently, someone jumped the gun on your husband; I suspect, it was the woman he was involved with; but I feel your husband never had any intention of telling you what he was doing; he was trying to keep his affair a secret, so he could keep you, too; and that never works, as what is done in darkness NEVER stays there, it always comes to light.
The next thing that comes to me is that your husband had NO intention of leaving the marriage; nor did he have any intention of telling you about his affair, but knew if you found out about his affair; you'd leave him; and that is exactly what has happened, because you wouldn't and won't accept him again as a husband if he should wish to return in that aspect.
I could be wrong, but that is what I'm getting strongly; and this would NOT be a fault in you; not many people can accept adultery in their spouse; regardless of the circumstances surrounding the event.
Since he's gone and taken another OW since then, the situation has worsened; as now he's "punishing" you by having taken all of the money. He's going to find out that there are serious consequences for his actions..but I digress.
I learned more as time went on; and quite a few things were added to my store of knowledge; not much was changed from what I knew before; if anything MORE was added.
3rd Stage of a Mid Life Crisis
REPLAY
Now, Replay can take many forms, from Affairs, to a search for youth, catching up on "lost" time-although you can never "catch up" what you have lost in that time-but they don't know that.
They are still searching for outside sources to blame for their misery, and Replay is a perfect time for a totally stable man to go crazy and start an affair-although the SEEDS for this affair were probably planted while in the Anger stage. They will still try to reconnect with children, or if they were close to their children, distance from them-it is also during this time they become the total "opposite" of what they were, before they entered the tunnel, back in Denial. They undergo a gradual change in the first two stages, going from what they were to the direct opposite during this time. They will do things their husbands/wives never thought they would do.
Besides the affair, they will feel "entitled" to what they take, regardless of who they hurt, or how much of a financial bind they put their families in. Their reasoning becomes "Well, I have taken care of people my whole life, now it's time for ME to have fun."
The emotions, during this time, are in play, in a way they never have been, and they don't understand what's going on, and so they panic and "run"; but the running they do will rock the very foundation of a marriage.
They may drink, take drugs, curse God for what He "has done" to them-have multiple affairs, failing to see what they are doing that's so wrong-still with the attitude of it being "my" time now.
The "bomb" can and will be dropped during this time, shocking the sane spouse who probably has NO idea that anything was wrong, and the problems begin to escalate, as "crying and begging" ensues, and the Mid Lifer turns away, secure in his "reasoning" for his behavior and /or the affair/drinking/drugs/money spent.
Their behavior can disrupt the most settled of families, most especially the affair-the Mid Lifer's reasoning is that he/she thinks they have "missed out" when really, they haven't, and the OW/OM, they can/will get involved with will NOT be what they wanted all along, but they won't see that until they experience an "awakening" that gives them a direction, and starts them along the path to facing their issues; opening the door for the stage of Depression.
As long as the Mid Lifer continues "replay" behaviors they are nowhere near to being ready to start their way out of the tunnel; the "awakening" they have IF they come to it, is a "turning point" to beginning their journey out of the tunnel.
When the "awakening" occurs, they begin to suffer the next stage-Depression, and it is a low point of the Mid Lifer's journey.
The Replay stage is the LONGEST of the stages, and can last up to two years or even longer, depending upon the "replay" behaviors used during this time.
Given that, how long does Replay usually last post-BD?
Refer to the estimated time just above your quote for a possible answer...Replay will last as long as the person has a major issue to confront that is too painful to face. That's all I know; and I do say that Replay CAN LAST UP TO TWO YEARS or EVEN LONGER, DEPENDING on the REPLAY behaviors used during this time.
HB - thank you for the very concise answers to all our questions!! I do have one about something you wrote though. You mentioned that anyone can have an emotional crisis and that the behaviors are similar, so how do we know the difference between that and MLC?
Dude, the ones in emotional crisis don't have the heavy confusion that comes in MLC; there is a type of confusion; but usually one in emotional crisis is very well aware of what they are doing to hurt others, whereas there are many things the MLC'er does that at various times, their awareness is simply NOT there...the MLC'er is deep within the FOG in a way that one going through the emotional crisis is NOT.
Also the one going through emotional crisis can exit this without resolving anything and won't experience a recurrance coming on at a later time; at least until it's time for the Transition/Crisis.
One other thing here, is that one going through an emotional crisis is more likely to understand they have a problem, and more likely to accept help for what they are dealing with, whereas the MLC'er doesn't WANT to be helped; they don't think anything is wrong with them.
In fact, one going through an emotional crisis can also experience the traumatic breakage that happens and these pieces can be stored within the psyche for a later time of dealing; it doesn't just happen in childhood; people in young adulthood can experience this as well.
When my dad died back in 1994, for example; I was 27 years old. I suffered an emotional crisis; there was some depression involved; I realized at that time that was a transitional type of crisis, that I was going to need to adjust to losing a parent; but I didn't suffer the kind of fogged confusion I suffered during my Transition; and there were some aspects of his death that I simply "set aside" to deal with during my transition over 10 years later.
I did withdraw from my family for a time; just as my husband withdrew from me when his mother died; but I knew, and was aware that I was going through something. Someone helped me through it, and I don't remember who it was, and I accepted that help.
I didn't finish dealing with it until later; but my awareness back at that time was actually much clearer than it was during my transition.
My husband's emotional crisis for six months after his mother's death wasn't fogged behavior; his angst was deliberately taken out on me; as he knew full well what he was doing; and I didn't see the deep confusion and fear within his eyes that I saw during his MLC. I do remember he accepted help from someone; although, he,too, set aside several aspects concerning her death, and dealt with them later, during his MLC.
Your regular run of the mill cheater is one in consistent emotional crisis; but they are completely aware of all they do; their actions are deliberate; even though childish behavior is seen as they carry out their secrecy. Unlike a MLC affair, however, secrecy is the key to maintaining their illicit behavior, and once blown out in the open, this is usually enough to bring about the end of the affair.
The WAS KNOW if they get caught, it's likely to mean the end of their marriage; whereas the MLC'er in their confusion really doesn't understand why the LBS gets SO angry at what they are doing; as they've buried their morals,etc.....yet, the WAS KNOWS, but does it ANYWAY.
Not so with the MLC affair; the MLC'er has already set their marriage aside to the point it does NOT exist for them, and discovery will NOT ALWAYS result in the affair ending; and you sure aren't going to see any kind of remorse, unless it's for THEMSELVES; not like you would see in the Wayward Spouse who has all of their mental faculties in place.
There are similarities in behavior; but there are aspects that set a regular affair apart from the MLC affair; just as there are aspects that set an emotional crisis apart from the MLC.
Also, your assertion that BD happens when they're deep in Replay is contradictory to most here, but I totally agree based in my own sitch.
People often see what they want to see; believe what they want to believe; and what results is a disagreement that becomes about who's right and who's wrong.
I never said I had all the answers, but there are many things I saw evidence of over and over that confirmed my writings back then, and even now.
I based all I wrote on FACTS not feelings or assumptions; not to mention my Insight. Very little of what I've written came from me as a human being...and I've seen EVERYTHING I've written over time CONFIRMED more than once. If I hadn't seen it in this way; I'd question myself on various aspects; but I have NOT seen any mistakes or misinformation within the writing I did about the Major aspects of MLC. In fact, in May of 2010, I started out writing just enough to get people started, then waited on them to feed BACK all that I already knew; as they did, I fleshed out their starting of knowledge to help them learn more.
I needed to know that all I wrote was correctly heard and written out years ago when I was writing on these things on the other board. Once I realized these aspects were accurate as these was given to me so long ago; I was and have been confident enough to help others without worrying that I was hearing "wrong".
I have been flamed, insulted, my words twisted, been told I was close minded, disregarding the opinions of others, and the list goes on...but those who do and say these things aren't hurting me; they're hurting themselves, and others with their actions, and choice to pass on what they believe is truth.
Don't think for one second, I'm not aware of what goes on in that aspect; there's not one thing I can do about it...and I don't have the need to spend the rest of my life on this or any other board correcting people's perceptions; I can only speak for myself when asked directly; or there is a wealth of posts one can access that I've written before over time, not to mention posts from other people that, by now, know as much as I do. :)
If what I have just written angers someone so be it; sometimes people must get angry in order to become or feel better; and troublemakers will bear the eventual consequences of their actions.
I just know that when it all comes to an end, and I leave this world, I will account to the Lord for myself as a INDIVIDUAL; and for what I have done; not for anyone else. :)
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HB,
Thank you for your wisdom...can I clarify something you wrote.
Are you saying that the MLCer can exit REPLAY without ending the R with OW?
I know we all know our H's best and it seems like my H is different (can't explain how- just different)
Can they enter the 4th stage and still be with OW? Or when do they finally end the R- is there a specific stage?
Knowledge is power and I feel more powerful already....thank you!
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Crazy,
In one of RCR's articles (DGU would know which one) she states that the OW can continue after the end of Replay - but the relationship will have changed.
L
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Limit, that MCL man at your work is something. And this trend of naked/ or half naked photos that people send to each other…everyone is in need of 15 minutes of fame?...
Well, if, by then, my husband had a mobile that could have pictures I may not had find it. I never touched his mobile.
Yes, think you and HB are right, phone call/BD to me most likely was OW1 thing.
That story of your husband and his x-wife and that she could not be responsible for the break of the marriage is pretty much like OW1 and her values…they play the, no, no, we are very moral one…the man/woman fells pressured, and, puff, there they go.
HB, Yes, he was trying to keep his affair secret. I have found, a while ago, a bunch of their letters. He never says he wants to leave (he may had almost before he had, there is a gap of a few weeks prior to his left and BD), they were meeting in secret. She was the one “directing” it all. Booking the hotels, looking at the trains schedules, telling him how to do, etc. And, always, keeping the “my love” and the, when he says he really respect me and does not want to hurt me, “I know, that is one of the reasons why I love you so much”. Only to add “but you know I need to have a certainty, I need to know you are fighting for us as much as I am. Have you imagine us, in our little house, and the happy life we would have?”, he replies saying “no, I have not thought about that. I’mnot sure that is what I want”. From there on she is always pressuring, being adorable, saying he is so nice, a man like she has never meet before, etc. Also, I know he had been crying a lot, because he writes it to her. But he never told me that he cried or was unhappy.
The thing, HB, is that he left weeks before BD. So, if he really did not wanted to leave the marriage, why left? He knew that, even because he went to live with a single man that was part of our social circle, that I would soon find out there was OW1. But I’m going to agree that, yes, he wanted to keep both of us. “Everyone will get along, you’ll see”, he said. I would had got him back as a husband if he had dropped OW1 and wore willing to work hard on things. After she was gone he come after me, wanted me to be his girlfriend. We would divorce, he would have all the money, and we would start a new relationship. I told him, no. As husband and wife ok but the money issues he had caused would had to be repaid and things worked on. Also told him that he was still not on his mind. He had taken the money some weeks after OW1 went public. But yes, he knew I was not going to be around for him to have both of us.
Still, very well, if, but only IF, his faults are paid for (and I don’t mean just money), if he manages to come out of all this a better man, taken accountability for his mistakes, I may still want him as a husband. But he will need to do a HUGE amount of work on himself. Still, that is not going to stop me for carry on with my legal actions not demand all that the law grants me. Nor from moving on. So, yes, he may really become a fantastic great better man but I will be long gone.
I know he is in MLC. That there are a bunch of issues from childhood ne needs to address. But, like stayed, I’m not the kind who will not let him know, loud and clearly, what his mistakes and wrong dids were. No, would not keep doing that forever, but also don’t let him go with a “ah, alright, you’ve just ruined a marriage.” He needs to get the notion of what ruining the marriage and our relationship really was.
The other thing my husband knows since he left is that, if/when divorced, I intend to remarry. One more reason for him to keep dragging the divorce and come up with silly processes. While I’m still married I will not marry again. Control, again, I think.
HB, I think you're quite right, if we observe, things will always happen a certain way.
Yes, crazy, an MCLer can end replay and still be with OW/OM. But it will not be the same thing. Some MClers remain married to the affair partner, or with the affair partner. Some people here on the forum had talked about such cases. Don't remember a single one where the MCLer had been happy or did not regret had remained with the affair partner. Also don't recall a single MLC i know of, form my life, where the MCLer, once out of the crisis, had not regret it all.
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Crazy4Him,
HB,
Thank you for your wisdom...can I clarify something you wrote.
Are you saying that the MLCer can exit REPLAY without ending the R with OW?
NO, I never said that. :) They must be past the affair and all replay behaviors before moving forward; unless they have managed to somehow put a particular issue aside for later.
I promise you I did NOT write that; and I don't advocate that view; my view is that the MLC'er goes through an "awakening" process which will lead to the affair dissolving; the OW/OM Withdrawal must be completed, although it can be processed right in tandem with the stage of Depression...but the affair partner should be GONE by the time the MLC'er is navigating through the 4th stage; which is Depression.
No one can handle an ongoing affair while depressed or even withdrawn; not even a MLC'er.
I've watched so many situations over time, and in each one, the MLC'er began to wake up to what they were doing, the affair partner was eventually left behind, and the affair was processed for meaning...only then were the depression and withdrawal stages progressed through; ALTHOUGH; OW/OM Withdrawal CAN be walked in tandem with the Depression stage. Also, the depression and withdrawal stages can be walked in tandem.
My husband got completely rid of OW, not long after his awakening happened; his Replay behaviors ceased completely, and I saw heavy flashes of the man I once knew; he walked through OW Withdrawal AND Depression at the SAME time; and I did the best that I could to help him through this Hell he was facing.
ALL Replay behaviors including the MLC affair MUST cease before the next stage is navigated...that's the view I have always held, and still hold.
I think RCR sees the depression and withdrawal and possibly acceptance as one whole stage, I do NOT; I see them as completely separate stages.
I sincerely doubt the affair survives past Replay; I've never seen it happen. The affair is actually one of the aspects of Replay; related to the issues of the MLC'er; a symptom of their problems/issues within, not to mention they are on a journey to search for someone who can connect with them, which is what the MLC affair is all about to begin with.
The emotions are in play as never before; and this is what draws the MLC'er into a EA that could possibly become a PA later on....
I hope this helps. :)
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Thanks Limitless,
That was my next question...I wasn't sure if HB had articles too!
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CFH,
sometimes I feel Dearheart is dipping his toe in another stage awakening as he is still with ow. It feels different. I mean I have now tried to drive Dearheart out ( a few weeks ago) and he point blank refused, so where does that leave him. In the past he has threatened to leave if I pushed, and man this time did I push. Something changed but still he has plans with ow and the like. To me it is replay.
He has reconnected with the house, his house, doing things around it, big plans and some coming to fruition.
He is trying to connect with the eldest girls whom he had disconnected the most. He spends time with them inviting them to go with him on jaunts, there is a whole heap of things he is trying to do with them.
oops thanks HB
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CFM,
I found the article.
Here is the exerpt -
The Affair in Liminality
Some believe that the OW relationship will not survive into Liminal Depression and that this break-up may even be what facilitates the transition into Liminality. Though the latter may be true, it is not so in all circumstances, and the idea that the affair will not continue beyond Separation is misleading. The affair can continue through Liminality, but the nature of the relationship will change. The fantasy woman let her guard down and revealed herself; instead of infatuated, the MLCer may now feel trapped or stuck. Since he's destroyed everything else in his life, he might as well suffer through it and make this last thing work.
Here is the link:
http://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/mlc_overview_liminality.html
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Wow I write a post and do a new project for a few days and LOOK WHAT HAPPENS! LOL Okay I have a lot of catching up and replying to do. :D Let me jump right in!
Quoting Affaircare: "FOR THEM what you were doing to them hurt them deeply until eventually they hit an inner crisis point. FOR THEM it was bad enough to consider doing what they know is wrong and what makes them internally ILL"
You've written that whatever we did hurt them badly enough to hit an inner crisis point. How would that account for the single person who has an MLC? That presumes it takes two to tango and I'm sorry but I don't believe that is true 100% of the time. Maybe 1% or maybe 99% but not 100%.
And what do I take from the statements my H has made over and over again that I haven't done anything to hurt him, ever and that these are his internal issues about failure and fears of aging and so forth?
I don't think anything is 100% BonBon. There aren't 100% clinging boomerangs or 100% vanishers. There aren't 100% affairs. Very little in MLC life is 100%! But even for a single person, the reason they go into MLC is because of some sort of crisis, and crisis means there is pain involved. Something is hurting them. Now, if they're single it may be something like being involved in a lifestyle that they also internally think is wrong...or doing something so against their inner core that they get conflicted about it. But if they're married, a relationship of two individuals is involved, and often (not every single time but maybe 99% of the time or 98%...often) a portion of the internal conflict is that they thought THIS and it turned out THAT or they have slowly done THAT.
As an example, BonBon, you say that your husband says his MLC is due to "his internal issues about failure and fears of aging." I could say similar for my own Dear Hubby because when I was in MLC it was due to feeling like an old dried up prune, like I couldn't have children, like we wouldn't have a sex life anymore, and like I wasn't ready to be "old" yet. At the time I didn't even know those were part of the issue--I figured that out after or at the end so to speak! And yep it's true I am the one responsible for not using healthy communication techniques to talk about my feelings or to help identify a healthier way to deal with it. Yet I very much remember trying to talk to Dear Hubby and he sort of acted uncomfortable, changed the subject, and avoided. After so many tries...I gave up trying. Once you give up that, other things are "given up" on and it's like a cascade effect.
So my post isn't about "hey, BonBon is to blame for her hubby's MLC and choices" but rather to say that the two of you were in an intimate relationship. He made his own choices, but if the intimacy was not only physical but also emotional and mental, then there was some sort of break down or issue. And rather than deflecting responsibility or saying that the two of you just need to "do dates" and you'll reconcile, I'm saying no--there are TWO parts here. The good stuff that made you fall in love had diminished (doing dates) and the bad stuff that sort of puts out the flame of love increased. If you only start to increase the good stuff--but continue doing the bad stuff--it's like adding wood to a fire and then putting water on the fire and wondering why the fire doesn't grow.
If you only did 1% or 2% of the "damage" to the relationship, then you are personally responsible for that 1% or 2%. The focus would be to look at your own self, and your own actions, and then actively work on the 1% or 2% that is on your side of the street. Then thereafter the focus is to keep your side of the street clean and to keep looking for healthy ways to respond in the relationship. The focus isn't on the MLC'ers issues or what they "should" be doing to face their issues. Nope. Look at yourself and if needed get your own self to counseling to do exactly what you're hoping for from your MLC'er: namely to be brave enough to face the fact you may have some work to do!
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... ANY happening or change os some sort can spin someone into a crisis...My h's for example was his father having a heart attack...
We as their spouses, take the brunt of the blame for their unhappiness...or their significant other...I would tend to believe because we are the closest people to them
Yep, my personal theory is that none of us has a perfect childhood--we all have some sort of issues! And in childhood we have little internal bombs implanted that are going to "go off" when we grow up.
Then when we grow up and the thing occurs that sets off the bomb, some of us do not have the tools to deal with the bomb well. Others have better personal tools or skills and deal with the bomb in a healthier way.
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Very interesting post here Affaircare. My own theory is that MLC is caused primarily by the MLCer's personal issues, but that once BD occurs it is a prime time for us as LBSers to look at ourselves and our role within the relationship. What do we need to improve about ourselves? What can we do to improve the dynamic within our relationship? Because you are right, none of us is perfect. We all have issues, and perhaps we never would have faced them unless forced to. That being said, I think if a MLC is brewing, it would happen even if the MLCer was married to "the perfect spouse."
;) Well said! I think this is about what I think too!
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MY H is 100% a vanisher Affaircare. He has not been home since January. Hard to believe that in a few months it will be a year since I have seen him. Sometimes I really have to close my eyes and think hard about what he looks like. The last time I saw him he did not look well.
In my therapy session today, I talked about how I had the dream that I had an woke up feeling as if I had passed my H by. I've worked on myself and in the end if I have passed him by, it won't be because I have not given him every opportunity to come home and to work on things. It's kind of like when someone goes to the doctor and says it hurts when I raise my arm over my head. And the doctor says.. well don't lift you arm over your head like that. Her knows how I feel , he knows I am here taking care of everything, he knows .....and I will no longer tell him.... he knows. But if thinking about him makes my heart hurt.. well as the doctor would say... don't think of him. I am finding it easier and easier to do.
Two months ago I would have never been able to say this. Now I can... and mean it. I have let go of my H and I have done so with love. I have forgiven him and I have forgiven me. He is not the enemy... he really never has been. There are no real winners and losers in this. Except that because of this I am learning to be the me that has been missing for so long. I wish my H were here to see it, but the truth of the matter is, he Isn't and hasn't been. That is not going to stop me. Every night I pray for God to protect my H and heal his heart.. whatever that means. Whether it's with me or not. I wish my H peace, and in doing so, I bring myself some peace. It truly is liberating.
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Yes, crazy, an MCLer can end replay and still be with OW/OM. But it will not be the same thing. Some MClers remain married to the affair partner, or with the affair partner. Some people here on the forum had talked about such cases. Don't remember a single one where the MCLer had been happy or did not regret had remained with the affair partner. Also don't recall a single MLC i know of, form my life, where the MCLer, once out of the crisis, had not regret it all.
Anne,
You're speaking of a totally different possibility; one where the MLC'er MAY choose to go on and marry the OW while in Replay; but this does NOT end the crisis, nor will it end the stage of Replay, the MLC'er who marries the affair is still in a fantasy world; therefore stays in REPLAY either for some time or the rest of their lives. In fact, the crisis as a whole CONTINUES for the MLC'er...
And most of them after they go stupid and marry their affair end up stuck in the tunnel; the affair partner has NO clue nor inclination to help them; therefore their time can either be lengthened because of this mistake or they choose NOT to go any farther; and remain within the stage of Replay for the rest of their lives.
For a MLC'er to be able to return and rebuild their marriage with the LBS; the affair partner MUST be GONE completely in order to navigate to the next stage. They must awaken to what they are doing first before things begin to change toward the latter end of Replay.
Either way; various issues must be resolved in order to continue navigation; and this depends on what their next move is; whether they decide to dissolve the affair and return to their spouse, or go on with their affair partner.
Again, the choice to do whatever they choose is up to THEM.
Oh, and in regards in any articles from me; you'll find them ALL over the board discoursing on various subjects. :)
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AnneJ, you wrote: "Star, but if you, like Syn, think you play a big part in your husband's case and that it may make sense they leave and have another person, than, why do you mind so much they left and have another person?...Sorry if I'm sounding harsh."
Maybe it's because of a fundamental difference in the view of what marriage is and isn't. For example, I view marriage as if *I* made a promise to my Dear Hubby to forsake all others for only him. He did also make a promise like that to me. BUT It is not relevant whether he is keeping his promise for me to hold MYSELF to keeping MY promise. Also, I'm not in the marriage to have my needs met but rather to be a student of Dear Hubby and learn how to meet his needs.
Thus, it doesn't make sense for him to leave and be with another person (because he made the promise too), but it does make sense to say "Hmmm...I didn't hold up my end of the promise and thus I do need to acknowledge that."
AnneJ, you wrote: "offmyrocker, you say "I have apologized to my h because i grew enough to know that there were some things that i could have done differently." But did he apologise to you for what he have done' I'm certain that, before the MLC he had also things he would had done differently.
It amazes me a bit that is the "offended party" that needs to look fault within and apologise and not the "offender". Let alone when they have not even come out of the crisis and are still out there doing wrong things. OK, we can look within, nothing wrong with that but to think we are the responsable ones for someone MCL, or have a great part to do with it, is going too far.
Okay again I think this is a fundamental different way of viewing marriage and personal responsibility. I'll use my own self as an example here. My exH was verbally abusive in the form of calling names, screaming at loud volume, twisting my words, and making threats. HOWEVER, during a fight that does not give me then the justification to also be verbally abusive to him! So I look at myself and I realize "Hey guess what? Yes it took years and I gradually slipped into responding in an abusive way, and yes it's kind of understandable how I got here, but facts is facts. I'm being verbally abusive too!" So I am personally responsible for myself and my choices, whether he is being verbally abusive or not. If he is being verbally abusive, I have many, many choices I could make that do not involve being abusive back...and yet as humans the fact is that we often slip into that.
So I'm in agreement with offmyrocker. If I was calling him names, screaming, twisting his words or making threats to try to get him to stop doing something--I am responsible for what I chose to do. Even if I'm the offended party, I gradually allowed myself to "go there." And this is why I say that even if he continues to be verbally abusive, I can make other choices and I do have the responsibility to admit what I did do, learn new ways to respond, and keep my side of the street clean. Thus, if he chooses to continue to be abusive, I am not joining in the fray. Make sense?
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Quote from AC:
If you only did 1% or 2% of the "damage" to the relationship, then you are personally responsible for that 1% or 2%. The focus would be to look at your own self, and your own actions, and then actively work on the 1% or 2% that is on your side of the street. Then thereafter the focus is to keep your side of the street clean and to keep looking for healthy ways to respond in the relationship. The focus isn't on the MLC'ers issues or what they "should" be doing to face their issues. Nope. Look at yourself and if needed get your own self to counseling to do exactly what you're hoping for from your MLC'er: namely to be brave enough to face the fact you may have some work to do!
But that would mean that we would have to KNOW what it is we did wrong. According to my exH, I needed to golf more and make his mother happy--I'll happily pass. I KNOW we had negative communication patterns, but I also know we needed help to get to a better place. I tried my best on my own, but I needed some cooperation. He wanted me to give him more time, but I needed him to give me more help if he wanted backrubs and time on the sofa. We needed a mediator for years... But those were patterns of interaction and there is no way for me to work on that by myself. We all have work to do, but if all I knew was that he hated my hair color but couldn't tell me what he wanted, it would do me no good to go blonde when what he really wanted was an indescribable shade of green... And besides what I really want is a man who can love me just the way I am--with the hair color I've chosen ;-)!
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Yes, crazy, an MCLer can end replay and still be with OW/OM. But it will not be the same thing. Some MClers remain married to the affair partner, or with the affair partner. Some people here on the forum had talked about such cases. Don't remember a single one where the MCLer had been happy or did not regret had remained with the affair partner. Also don't recall a single MLC i know of, form my life, where the MCLer, once out of the crisis, had not regret it all.
Anne,
You're speaking of a totally different possibility; one where the MLC'er MAY choose to go on and marry the OW while in Replay; but this does NOT end the crisis, nor will it end the stage of Replay, the MLC'er who marries the affair is still in a fantasy world; therefore stays in REPLAY either for some time or the rest of their lives. In fact, the crisis as a whole CONTINUES for the MLC'er...
And most of them after they go stupid and marry their affair end up stuck in the tunnel; the affair partner has NO clue nor inclination to help them; therefore their time can either be lengthened because of this mistake or they choose NOT to go any farther; and remain within the stage of Replay for the rest of their lives.
For a MLC'er to be able to return and rebuild their marriage with the LBS; the affair partner MUST be GONE completely in order to navigate to the next stage. They must awaken to what they are doing first before things begin to change toward the latter end of Replay.
Was about to add that, if the MCLer ends up with the affair partner, it is because they have married them when in replay. And of those, some that stay together will never get out replay. Maybe there is one or other than, since they already divorced the spouse, now don't want to divorce again and have to stick to their poor replay choice. Normally the MCLer will get rid of the affair partner when replay is done.
But you got here first, HB. :)
Affaircare, of course that if someone is being verbally abusive we do not need to answer the same way. Yes, we can choose not to joint that but we can also choose to not to put up with such behaviour. But MLC is a little more than a partner that is verbally abusive or has a normal affair.
Of course the view of marriage may be diferent.
For me it is important that both parts keep the promise. Not to say, because you got someone else, I will to (just out of revenge). But from the moment the promise made before me (I had a civil marriage, so the promise was made before me, not God), is broken, I no longer feel obliged to keep mine. one thing would be if I had broken the promise before OW1 come along. From then on I no longer have to keep my part of the promise, because, for me, it ends when one of the parts break it. Of course the promise can be remade (and may never be broke again).
And, anyway, my husband was aware of that view of mine before we got married so, he cannot even complain if I date. However, MLC was not part of the plan, nor was having one of us cheating.
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However, MLC was not part of the plan, nor was having one of us cheating.
I dont think this is part of anyones plan...
It is all thrown upon us, and we have to cope with it...in one way or another...
hugs,
L
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However, MLC was not part of the plan, nor was having one of us cheating.
I dont think this is part of anyones plan...
It is all thrown upon us, and we have to cope with it...in one way or another...
hugs,
L
No, don't think it is part of anyone's plan. What can happen is that there may be people who are aware (before it had fall upon our heads) that MLC exists and may happen in their marriage. If so, those people may deal with it better. Just may...One never knows how one reacts until things really happen.
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Ok HB...I misunderstood a sentence you wrote...my bad! Sorry- I don't want to misquote or take anything you say in the wrong way.
I understand there is also no time limit for Replay as it could be 2 years or longer- I am in the longer category as BD is almost 27 months now...so Replay is longer than that, right? That's quite a long time and I'm wondering if it's longer because of the first time cut short.
Limitless- thanks for the link :)
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Ok HB...I misunderstood a sentence you wrote...my bad! Sorry- I don't want to misquote or take anything you say in the wrong way.
I understand there is also no time limit for Replay as it could be 2 years or longer- I am in the longer category as BD is almost 27 months now...so Replay is longer than that, right? That's quite a long time and I'm wondering if it's longer because of the first time cut short.
Limitless- thanks for the link :)
Crazy4Him,
One of my biggest concerns is to make sure I don't write in such a way that would lead someone astray, or give them wrong information, or even a wrong impression. That's an aspect that has always been within me; regardless of what I may speak or write about.
I know within myself that if I'm not careful with what I say, and someone goes a wrong way; then I'M the one who's held accountable for not making myself crystal clear with whatever advice I'm giving or any aspect I'm writing about; and I take that seriously.
Sounds crazy; but it's true. :)
Oh, AffairCare I apologize for all of the hijacks; and I will withdraw from your thread now.....I honestly forgot where I was for awhile; I'd been hopping between two different threads for several hours, and it wasn't until I saw you begin to post again; that I realized that me and several others had literally taken up residence on your thread.
Again, I apologize, and withdraw.
Have a good one.
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I don't think you can hijack a discussion thread, can you???? Isn't that what they're for????
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Affaircare- I too am sorry for the hijack. HB had mentioned something in a post and it related to a question I was looking to be answered.
So sorry, was totally off topic to your thread. My apologies :)
CFH
But I do thank you HB for answering my question- even if it was a hijack...LOL! Much thanks :)
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I also don't think a discussion thread can be hijacked...
So, think AC does not mind with us all here. :)
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Hijack? What hijack? There's no hijack.
Just some good discussion.
L
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Hijack? What hijack? There's no hijack.
Just some good discussion.
L
Exactly! ;D So, HB, crazy and all the rest of you, came back. :) The discussion is quite good and worth carry on. :)
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Yeah I agree--I don't think a discussion can be hijacked because the point is to discuss. Sometimes that can wind around a bit and go off in a direction and then come back around, so keep on keeping on. It seems relevant to me!
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Exactly! ;D So, HB, crazy and all the rest of you, came back. :) The discussion is quite good and worth carry on. :)
LOL!! My point was that some people don't like their threads hijacked; and I'm the literal QUEEN of hijacks, LOL!!
I got started on Thundarr; so I think it would actually be HIS fault the whole discussion got off track to begin with, as I never really addressed what AC was talking about. LOL!!
Now, where were we again? I lost my momentum! :)
I'm glad you're OK with this, AC. :)
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HB, your contributions were very welcomed. At least for me. Well, you have to me the queen of highjacks, you're one of those with must experience in this MLC thing, and one of the few that is reconciled. So, you will be in demand! :)
Would say you had address AC issue in several of your posts here.
When and re-read your six stages of MLC. Looks like I'm really gonna be here on the stands watching husband one unfold. But, and that come to mind a little bit ago when I was catching up on the thread H dragging OW along the tunnel of patience http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=744.0 and reading justasking talking about her husband’s clothes, mine looks like he is changing a little. I can only judge for the photos of his famous public life, but the clothes did change. They are more like the ones he wore when we meet (he dressed sharp and classy for a 17 years old) and the ones he had when he left. Not the crazy, so much more juvenile ones he had starting wearing since he left and had been wearing until a year ago.
Well, this is a very little nothing. It may mean zero. OW2 still there, they live together, he still has all the new friends and carries on with the party boy life, even if, this one two seems to be a little more toned down.
Will the man be, anytime soon, about to start to “wake up”? Or have glipses of “waking up”?...Who knows. We will all be here for the next chapter of…Soap, the best soap opera on MLC! ;D
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Hi Anne,
When and re-read your six stages of MLC. Looks like I'm really gonna be here on the stands watching husband one unfold. But, and that come to mind a little bit ago when I was catching up on the thread H dragging OW along the tunnel of patience http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=744.0 and reading justasking talking about her husband’s clothes, mine looks like he is changing a little. I can only judge for the photos of his famous public life, but the clothes did change. They are more like the ones he wore when we meet (he dressed sharp and classy for a 17 years old) and the ones he had when he left. Not the crazy, so much more juvenile ones he had starting wearing since he left and had been wearing until a year ago.
Well, this is a very little nothing. It may mean zero. OW2 still there, they live together, he still has all the new friends and carries on with the party boy life, even if, this one two seems to be a little more toned down.
This could also be an episode of "touching and going" too...but like you say, who knows?
Usually the clothes DO change first, then other aspects of their appearance begin to change; if they had a beard and it was shaved down to a goatee', you may see the sides of their beard return. You should also see changes in their hairstyle; if the hair was grown out, they will have it cut back into the style you remember. They will also be a little friendlier IF they are in contact with you; although they may still have trouble meeting your eyes.
You may also begin to see flashes of the old, flashes of the new; and flashes of the man they will become; and this can happen before the OW leaves the picture, as it seems you'll see signs of them beginning to "wake up" to what they are doing.
They must "awaken" in order to begin to become emotionally ready to dissolve the affair; it's sort of like "Oh crap, what am I doing?"...and when they look at the affair partner; they're not quite sure how they got into this position; but it will take time for them to decide what will be done in that aspect.
As I recall, when my husband awakened; he realized that if he didn't do something all would be lost; and I can remember when the affair was dying its death; our phone was ringing off the hook as OW was calling; and I wouldn't answer it. His attitude was changing toward me, he was trying to see if I would accept him back; I had caught onto him; this was where I was giving him all kinds of heck. I was screaming at him; crying in fury; really off the deep end at that time.
I had NOT gotten what I needed to do for myself at that time.
The Lord was doing His best to get me to back off; as my husband was seriously trying to end the affair.
The Lord succeeded in reining me in, but I still nearly lost him in that process; the pressure on him was tremendous; and as a result, he rejected me soundly for a time.
As the affair was exiting stage right, I actually did see his clothes begin to change from the "kiddie" style clothes to the style I remembered; I saw him grow his beard back out from the goatee he had fashioned it into. He did become more friendly toward me but was also cautious; because I had become a ticking time bomb in his eyes.
I know now, that he managed to set what was left of the issue he was trying to work through and settle through his affair aside; and he came forward without cycling backward; getting rid of the woman; going through OW Withdrawal and Depression at the same time.
He spewed in great confusion; and said a great many things that didn't make a whole lot of sense during the OW Withdrawal and Depression. It was also during this time that I saw him start to have hot flashes, night sweats, deeper confusion as he experienced the symptoms of Andropause.
He moved forward out of the fear of losing me, rather than because he was "finished" with that particular stage.
Eventually he exited the tunnel less than a year later. I can tell you from hindsight, that his initial bout had lasted three years, and unfortunately, he came though TOO fast; there was still that set aside issue he needed to face, and it came back to get him, within nearly two years as he struggled through the Settling Down Process.
This tossed him into a different kind of tunnel consisting only of the Replay stage; and the only issue he had left to face and work through....and this one took an additional six years for him to navigate it. The "kiddie" clothes returned with a vengeance; he shaved his beard right back down to a goatee'; and his attitude toward me changed for the worse again.
If there are aspects they haven't gotten to during Replay or even any other stage, it would not be unusual for them to cycle back to catch any aspects they may have missed; so pop the popcorn, sit on the curb, and keep watching him whizz by on his roller skates. :)
The affair really must run its course as in MLC; anything can happen, and an exposure of the affair CAN backfire in a negative way; and if the LBS manages to break up the affair through this method; it is always possible the MLC'er would just go right back out and start another...their state of mind is MUCH different than your typical WAS'; and since the MLC'er doesn't see themselves as married or attached in a similar way; they don't see what they are doing as wrong.
Their morals and scruples are literally buried, right along with their feelings during this time.
As a side note; I have often heard and read that MLC is simply an excuse for bad behavior; but those who would say that have NOT lived this through to the end; and probably haven't seen half of what we've seen.
Our spouses were good people before the crisis; it is NOT possible to "fake" love or feelings for a long period of years; something definitely did happen to change them; and I still think it's a chemical change within the brain that helps trigger the crisis; considering Depression is present throughout; plus a possible major life event that helped throw them into the tunnel.
Anyway, I digress. :)
I could see in clear hindsight WHY I never saw the EA my husband was engaged in within his first bout of crisis UNTIL it became a PA. I would NOT have understood; not in the place I was in at that time, still fresh from getting bombed by discovery; and it would have been disastrous had I caught on before he fell into adultery.
Within his second bout of crisis a few years later; he got into a long distance EA, and I was prepared to simply let it run its course; but the Lord instructed me to break up the fun that time. The difference was he clearly KNEW what he was doing, there was NO fog hindering his brain;and he was being selfish; wanting that ego stroked...but since he'd chosen ME within his first bout of crisis; he was either going to have to learn to get that need met by me or not have it met at all.
He was trying to have her meeting some needs, me meeting others; trying to have the best of both worlds; and this could NOT be.
Since he wasn't willing to risk losing me just to get his ego stroked by another, he put an immediate stop to it when I confronted him, and things didn't go the way they had within that first bout of crisis; I didn't get rejected soundly; and I saw that he didn't go through any kind of withdrawal when I told him he was going to cut contact for good.
He didn't like it, but I was beyond caring what he did and didn't like at that point.
So, you see, it really depends on where their state is mind is at; as to how they will react to being given an ultimatum.
Within the first bout of crisis, my husband was protective of the OW; and he hid her as thoroughly as he could from me; but I knew what was going on; most especially when he fell to adultery as the signs came right home to me...and you know, he could NOT understand why I getting SO mad when I was finding clear signs that HE brought home to me..and tried to play it off like nothing was happening; but he knew I knew; and it scared him so badly; he speeded up the process of getting rid of her, because he had no intention of leaving me.
Within the second bout; he actually told on himself; and that got me started looking in phone records to see what the heck was going on. He didn't play it off that time; just argued with me about it, then gave over; and did what I told him to do, and that was cut the contact.
I remembered thinking during that second time; how stupid this whole thing was.
So, yeah, I've been through two bouts of MLC with him; two vastly different types of affairs; and learned a great deal from the experience.
Heck, I don't know if any of this will help you, Anne; it's mixed with general knowledge; and experience.
But you know as hard as the road was for me, it was the journey that was most important; my marriage was just a bonus, nothing more than that.
I wasn't successful, because my marriage survived these two bouts of crisis; I was successful, because I took and finished the journey to wholeness and healing that was required of me; AND my husband navigated his journey as well.
What resulted was two people who were changed for the better because of what happened; but if he hadn't done his part, or if I hadn't done mine; we would not have made it to the point of reconnection and reconciliation.
I endured a great deal to make it to where I am; this was NOT the easier road that I took when I chose to stand for my marriage. This was the HARDER road I walked...it was hard enough to survive the journey to wholeness and healing; it was even harder trying to bring my marriage through with me.
There was alot of work I did singlehandedly. I was called upon at several points to bring him to accountability; as well as make sure my changes were for real, and made permanent; in order to bring about the necessary changes in him so he would grow up right along with me.
Either one of us could have walked away at any time; this is where the CHOICES come in..he could have decided to walk away and not accept the person I had become; but instead he CHOSE to stand with me in that aspect.
There were days I could have cheerfully killed him; and not felt a thing; to me, it seemed like he was making this so much harder than it really was; but I also had to remember that my issues and his issues were different in many ways, although we were guilty LONG before the crisis of enabling each other in various ways of immature behavior.
Yet, I was way ahead of him most of the time; therefore, I was called upon to lead him in the way he needed to go. I was charged with an even greater responsibility because I KNEW, and was AWARE of what was going on; most of the time, he had NO clue which end was up. I was the "sane" one, therefore, I was receptive to the instructions I kept getting from my intuition.
I always had choices; a person will always have choices; no one can ever say they don't have a choice...and no one gets forced into standing or walking away.
One of the aspects I always recalled was the one concerning free will that God gives to every person. There are consequences for making wrong choices, but God will not prevent one from making choices that can lead to disaster. He only reminds one that they will reap what they sow, and it's true, I've seen it happen in the life of my husband several times.
I guess I'm such a stubborn lady; but I could NOT let this completely go within this particular aspect without seeing how this would end. So, I hung in there to see how this would go; and it went well, as things are better now than before. :)
Take care. :)
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Ok, I see how it is here. Let's just blame the man for all the hijacks and then move on. Incredible. Lol!!!
HB said "There were days where I could have cheerfully killed him.". Yikes!! Shantilly and I just had a discussion last week about how she contemplated killing her H when SHE was in crisis. I haven't reached that point with my W yet but who knows. I didn't know so many women had it in them (especially HB!!). I hope my W isn't plotting my demise.
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Thundarr...In your defence, I believe it was me who started this whole hijack/discussion.
I asked a question for HB to answer and the rest is history...
Yes, now where were we again? Thanks AC :)
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Thundarr,
I KNEW you'd come back in and toss it right back at me, LOL!!!!
Seriously, it WAS a post of yours that got me started; one about being "misinformed" in regards to the opposites?
The killing him cheerfully part came after I discovered his affair, and then it came again when I discovered he wasn't finished with his final issue. Normal human response on my part; and I'm human, too, doncha know??!! :)
It seems, too, every time I return to start posting again, I will also find posts speaking of the marriage NOT being to blame for the MLC; it's a kind of deja vu' experience; as I've seen that discussion before.
Common sense dictates the state of being IN a RELATIONSHIP doesn't "cause" the trouble, the PEOPLE IN IT are the ones responsible for their own actions/contributions to whatever trouble comes about. Being married doesn't mean much of anything; that's just a piece of paper. It's the feelings, actions, etc., that contribute or even fail to contribute to the growth or lack of growth within this state.
Marriage is also a state of mind; you are either married or you're not; there is NO in between ground in this aspect. During the crisis, the MLC'er does NOT consider themselves as married or otherwise attached to the LBS. What "attachment" they claim for the OW/OM is nothing more than teenage behaviors, and these weren't designed to foster any kind of mature attachment.
They have NO clue what love really means; and their idea of love is actually using people to get what they want; using control and manipulation; and don't think for one minute they'll willingly sacrifice; oh no, they must have it all; and will throw some awful tantrums to get their way.
Their behavior in these and many more aspects is often worse than "play ground" behavior; evidence of a child going through puberty in the process of attempting to reach adulthood.
And because of this state of mind they are in, the marriage itself is completely destroyed, burned to the ground, done, and gone on the day of the Bomb Drop; changed to an ended state, and the life you once knew ended.
For what it's worth, it would even NOT have mattered WHO you would have married; this would have still been on the horizon.
I've NOT ever said the marriage itself is to blame; but the two people within each have their part in the events that led up to the crisis; each person has their own INDIVIDUAL issues to deal with during the crisis; and you rarely see one that is in crisis where the other has finished their journey; and has clear command of the tools.
That was ME during his SECOND round of crisis; he wasn't finished, I was out ahead of him....and from many situations I have observed over time; if/when the crisis rears its ugly head again; the LBS decides they are done; and shuts the door; I can't blame them; this is a exhausting road to walk.
Though I could have done that; I didn't; and I always say I cannot see the current strength within me; but in hindsight, I see it so clearly.
I dealt with a man in the first crisis; then his crisis triggered my transition, then I exited to find out he wasn't done; and there were long blocks of time between all that happened. I lived my life AS IF he were going to decide at any time to walk away.
During this same time, I learned all I needed to learn about ME; what was there in me that needed fixing, changing; all the while leaving a door open for him to do whatever he wished to do. I really did want him to be happy EVEN if it wasn't with me.
I had no wish to hold him back; nor force him to stay if he didn't wish to...that defeats the purpose of love being free.
We had our skirmishes, battles, times of setting down limits and boundaries that he didn't always want to honor; and I had many times of walking out of the room, the house; and trying to have the right attitude at the right times; this was where my intuition guided me closely.
It eventually took the Lord allowing circumstances to bring him down; and, of course that increased the burden I carried, yet He continued to provide, bless; and strengthen me to keep going.
My time in this was NOT wasted; I LIVED, WORKED, CARRIED ON, and used the time that was given me. My husband made many mistakes during this crisis, and I also made my own mistakes; but each one of us was responsible for our OWN problems, mistakes, etc.
I did, indeed, gain more than I ever perceived I lost...and in reality, I didn't lose much at all...just that heavy baggage I no longer carry. :)
It generally comes down to perception; what we perceive, has a tendency to color our circumstances either negatively or positively
I encourage people to understand that if I can do this, others can, too, and it wasn't an easy balance; but I accomplished all of the objectives that were there before me when I was entering this aspect of the crisis back in 2001; having gotten bombed by discovery.
NO one could do this for me, nor do it to me; I was the ONLY one with this kind and type of decision; and with some human help; and a whole lot of Godly help; I came through WITH it all.
My marriage as a whole was NOT to blame for the crisis; but myself and my husband had our parts to face, confront, settle and heal for OURSELVES.
I couldn't do it for him, and neither could he do it for me.
I'm about to give up on the hope that people will understand what I keep trying to get across; it seems to me that some will do anything to make SURE the MLC'er takes ALL the blame for EVERYTHING, and the poor little LBS is simply a victim of circumstance, with NO part to play, examine or fix; and this simply isn't true at all.
The "martyr" or even "victim" complex attitude of "I didn't do anything and the MLCer did everything" is NOT going to serve any kind of purpose that I can see. I know ALL about that, as I WAS THERE at one time.
The second time I had to face him not having done all he was supposed to do; was met with an attitude of "Well dang, here we go again"...and this was AFTER I got really upset about it..but the upset didn't do me a whole lot of good, NOR did it change ONE thing about what was happening.
The other difference within this second time; was I had NOTHING left to examine or face within myself; I had already completed my journey; so all that was left was to apply what I had already learned; even though some of the rules of engagement had changed, considering the situation.
Sure, I worried deeply about him; this came because I loved him; but I wasn't stuck, miserable or otherwise sucked deeply into his situation; I was observing from the outside; and seeing MORE than I ever saw in my life into what was clearly HIS problem.
I used every tool I gained to deal with him; and these same tools are still being used, depending upon the circumstances present. :)
Oh, and while I'm thinking about; consider the place you're in within your spouse's crisis BEFORE you decide on a course of action. I say this because I've seen in several advanced poster's threads where a poster will look like they are trying to "fit" their situations into another's using it for a "template" if you will.
Understand that if your MLC spouse is NOT ready; whatever you wish to try WILL FAIL; it's the way of the process.
Many people come in for "quick fixes" looking for shortcuts for reconciliation, long before the MLC'er is even ready; and they are shocked when it fails...don't be; everything has its place within the crisis, and one of those places is YOUR journey to wholeness and healing that I constantly preach about.
Take this time to learn about yourself; learn to develop your intuition, and learn to stick with the place in which you are; and you will KNOW when the time is right for certain things.
After my intuition developed fully; the ONLY time I needed human advice was when either the Lord instructed me to ask someone for it, OR when I was in waters that I had never navigated before; and He instructed me in the same way.
I often have been told that I show up right when I'm needed the most; and no one understands how that happens with me; I always say you can thank the LORD for that; as I follow His instruction to the letter. :)
My point is this: develop your relationship with the Lord if you haven't already...some people refer to Him as a Higher Power, The Creator; and I know a few who are agnostic; but have seen Him work with these in many ways, simply because He believes in THEM, even if they don't believe in Him.
His Glory is shown in various ways within ALL situations; and His thoughts and ways are NOT like ours; and even I don't profess to know the mind of the Lord; His actions aren't always in the realm of my own understanding.
He's sent me off on various tangents more than once; but it was for someone's benefit; so I simply go with the flow when writing various things. :)
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HB
An eloquent and heartfelt view or MLC which simply puts this nightmare into a real life perspective ..
going through this and winning doesn't mean you and your MLCer reunite - it means you see and find and use the strength inside yourself to find your inner equilibrium, well that is how I see it !!
I do feel that this has made me a better person ... and also in control of my life - I am different but the same - I have my own mind back -being married engulfs you and it shouldn't - my fault I let it! When i started to try and change what I had let be created the issues started maybe my transition ?? But it maybe pushed my H into his crisis ... who knows maybe I will never but I hope my H is happy one day and a good father again - he is trying and I see his progress very clearly ...
Nothing so major to up-date on just slow changes for the better then a slip backwards then a leap forward then back on the hamsters wheel again ............
MLC as OP has always counselled take s sooooooooooooo long .. but I now understand this part of the process hate it but get it !!
Keep posting HB when you feel like it as this post is really helpful where ever we are in this MLC situation at BD or at 2 1/2 years like me!
Love B
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Yes, thanks HB. I have found your recent posts to be very helpful! :)
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HB, Thanks to your reply. Thing is, I do not have a single contact with husband (except if I have to phone or mail him about taxes/legal stuff). Until a 3 months ago I could, If I wanted, talk to him on gmail chat (something I never did except for the reason mentioned above). Now I can no longer do that. Why? Because I had to ask him for a paperwork thing that he was not providing. I said “So, is there something you have to tell me?” He did not answer, closed the chat and blocked me. I did not try to ask why.
But the clothes thing…from the times we would still talk, during OW1, sometimes we would talk on the gmail chat. He had a photo of himself there, with a very juvenile jumper. At the time, he was very enthusiastic with it, telling me “see my new photo? I love that new jumper, my favourite:”, me “it is to juvenile to you. It is ok but for a younger person”., he “ah! But X, his older than I am and also has one”, me “OK, I still don’t like it on you. I prefer you with shirts.” Can’t remember what we said next, it was over 3.5 years ago. But he left that photo on his gmail chat. It was there 3 months ago when he blocked me.
The public photos that I get to see are either on my FB, my SIL is there, so I see all she posts or tags, and she does tag her brother a lot, or in venues and cultural places that I still subscribe to. I don’t get to see the last ones because its husband, I see the photos from whatever/whomever is there. Needless to say that, in all is public appearances photos, OW2 is there, making sure she is tagged or named, always with a huge smile to the camera. In fact, looks like all she wants is the camera and to be on the picture. Better, always looks like she is stealing the photo from him. She is, pretty much, the centre of the universe in their pictures.
So, even if the man is a vanisher, and considering he may not know to what venues/cultural things I subscribe, he knows I get to see the stuff SIL tags. Meaning, I’ve notice all is dressing changes. And the latter one is for the type of dressing that he knows I like to see him with. But, what sort of touch and go given that, since OW2 come along, we do not talk? And that he has even blocked on gmail chat (must say it was weird all those years, if I was there, which was rare, to have him available but not talk to him). Would he be excepting me to notice and told him? Given I never had and the only thing I approached him on gmail for was to talk paperwork, he thought, she does not notice?...Even if so, he still keeps dressing on the mode adult classy way I like.
No hair or facial hair change. He always had those the same way. Other change I notice, again, through my SIL and some mutual friends FB, is taste in music. Or better, he started incorporated the stuff he used to like into all that dance music he had got himself into. That dance/party music thing had gotten so far that some of our mutual FB friends, were even tolding him off, no able to put up with his techno stuff. Now they say, “good to see you coming back to the stuff you’ve always enjoyed”.
And one more change, even if OW2 is still in all husbands public appearances photos, their body language, their closeness has changed, his look of “I’m infatuated with you” is gone”. And no, I’m not seeing what I want to see. There are changes. No idea what they really mean. He still has that second court case against me running, he blocked on gmail, there is no way I’m gonna get in touch with him to comment about any of the stuff I notice. And, last but not least, he always looked pretty drunk in the public appearances photos. Not so much since he started to dress classy and sharp again.
I don’t have any other way, for the time being, except public appearances photos and comments he may place in my SIL or mutual FB to see flashes of the old he. But those, the return of the classy smart clothes and old music tastes, are flashes of his old self. So far nothing I can see as the new self. Everything else, from his legal cases against me, from his continuous refusal to pay alimony, to public parade OW2, always be photographed in parties and social events, and still be king of the night life, look alike.
OK, there is one think I did that may had made him be scared of get in touch, even if the wants to. That was after the blocked me on gmail. A month of so after. I wrote in a letter. Pretty much a farewell one. It was not pointing fingers, just saying that I was done and that, the time has come for I to say what I needed to be said. Pretty much that, legal stuff should be left to those that were dealing with it, that those 20 years together had been great but I was moving forward. That I keep no resentment from him. That I had for him the affection a person has for an old friend that has taken the wrong path. That I did not though our paths were going to meet again, just would not say never, because one never knows. I did not called him my darling, but my dear and did not signed with love or kisses, just my name. No, I was not trying to make him feel bad or "OH, I need to go back because, otherwise, she is gone". Somehow I just needed to do it.
OK; HB, go ahead and pull my ears, and say, now you’re screw it and send him back to the tunnel and OW2. Maybe. But, if so, frankly, I don’t really care. At that point it was important for me to write, and send, the letter. It was a turning point for me. He did not replied, I was not expecting to do so. He did, however, when I informed him, a couple of weeks past the letter (we inform each other if a relative or pet passes away) that one of my uncles had passed away, send his sentiments to the family right after receiving my text.
So, HB, where is this man heading? I would say that, and I may be very, very wrong, he may be done with the crisis within a year, a year and a half. And that replay may end sooner than that. I’m only guessing here, of course.
Ah! That of not considering themselves married, unlike a normal WS or a married person that has an affair is very much so. My husband, as soon as he an OW1 went public, changed in social networks state from married to in a relationship. When OW1 was no more to single and, with OW2 again to in a relationship. And, of course, he can see nothing wrong with it. He had left! He is no longer married. Well, he is right, now he is no longer married, except on paper.
True, marriage is also a state of mind. I felt married for years after husband left and its been a while since I don’t feel married anymore. Ironically, even if I think that, I sense that, now, the end of the crisis is nor that far away. We’ve been on this for longer than we still have to be.
Weird, isn’t it? Or is this normal, HB? Does the LBS needs to feel not married in order to move to the next step, with or without the spouse?
And where does this leaves the all divorce story? Exactly in the same place. Right now there no reason for I to have any change towards that.
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HB - I too love reading anything that you write. I always get so much out of it, and something more sinks in, each time I read it.
Something that has been puzzling me though is this. I know we all learnt behaviours that need to be changed and worked on for a better relationship in the future - but not all of us had abusive childhoods that we need to heal from.
I feel pretty fortunate, in that I was lucky to have a secure and loving childhood. Not perfect, but pretty great all the same.
Some of us need to heal more past damage for ourselves, and I guess the rest of us need to work out how not to be the 'fixers' that most of us are.
I'm not sure that I needed my H's crisis to make the other changes in me??? Him transitioning would have been enough. I think we do this as we all grow up and have our life experiences. I would like to think we are designed to do this without this rubbish heap thrown at us - but maybe I am wrong???
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Hello B! :)
An eloquent and heartfelt view or MLC which simply puts this nightmare into a real life perspective ..
going through this and winning doesn't mean you and your MLCer reunite - it means you see and find and use the strength inside yourself to find your inner equilibrium, well that is how I see it !!
I do feel that this has made me a better person ... and also in control of my life - I am different but the same - I have my own mind back -being married engulfs you and it shouldn't - my fault I let it! When i started to try and change what I had let be created the issues started maybe my transition ?? But it maybe pushed my H into his crisis ... who knows maybe I will never but I hope my H is happy one day and a good father again - he is trying and I see his progress very clearly ...
Nothing so major to up-date on just slow changes for the better then a slip backwards then a leap forward then back on the hamsters wheel again ............
Look at it this way; the slower he navigates, the more likely he will get all of his issues faced, resolved, settled and healed; and this gives you MORE time to get yourself and your journey finished.
We know from my own experience what happens when they come through too quickly and miss an issue; but then again; I was a pretty slow processor when it was me; as it took me a long time; but I got all mine the first time around.
You know one spouse CAN trigger another in; my husband's MLC triggered MINE; and B, you very possibly could have triggered your husband into his.
Change in one spouse always brings change in the other; it's like a domino effect within a relationship, regardless of what kind it is....I mean, changes in the way children relate to the parents brings about a change in the relationship between. Even changes in one of the people involved in a friendship brings about changes in the other person involved.
And these things take time and consistency to accomplish.
When you first begin to change; it passes with little or no notice; but when the changes becomes more repetitive and consistent; and shows you as being "out of character" this gets the MLC'er's attention.
They may be puzzled at first; then try to influence you "back" into the "old" they knew was "tried and true" behavior within your that had so often fed their justifications. When that doesn't work, anger comes forward; because you've become strange to them...and the anger is designed as an intimidating force. This is the true test of your change, when you can outlast the anger and go for the gold...which is the MLC'er having to figure out HOW to change in order to relate to the "new" you they see.
It might take several consistent behaviors before their attention is gotten; but rest assured; whether it is one or several changes they are facing; they'll have to sit up and take notice....nothing is working for them as it was before.
My husband, for example was used to me being completely transparent about what I was doing; while he was hiding himself; and his doings. I started playing my cards closer to the vest, and staying quiet, stopped talking so much. I started also at the same time treating him like a friend that I hardly knew. I was polite, nice to a certain extent; but I wasn't talking to him much at all.
I got strange looks at first; then he started up, like I had been "told" he would..this was new territory for me at that time. :)
Curious, he started asking me was I sick, was I OK, was something wrong, was I mad....I answered his questions with yes and no answers, but didn't volunteer anything else. After a period of time; he started getting worried, because I was being distant, although consistently polite to him, LOL!
I probably shouldn't have messed with him; but I started to also wear my hair in different ways; he never knew that I was making sure my long hair was up and out of the way AT WORK...but I left home with it down, and came home with it down. :)
I was a cute little thing; especially after I'd lost over 20 lbs; and I still looked like a teenager at 34; and I could tell he was really worried; but said nothing for over two weeks. But, then, I said nothing, either; just came and went as I pleased, just like HE was doing. :)
After two weeks of digging to see if he could get me to spill; he then accused me of seeing somebody else, LOL...I had never laughed so hard in my life at him...and that made him mad. :)
Of course, he expected ME to get mad back, but I didn't, another change that threw him, I just kept laughing, and reminded him I was MARRIED, and married people didn't see other people while married. I sort of expected him to start spewing at me; but he just turned back to the sink, and started washing dishes again...he was doing ALOT of cleaning at that time; most especially of the kitchen, and you know, I never figured out WHY it was the kitchen.
Some MLC'ers I read, would constantly clean bathrooms, or laundry rooms, the upright freezers, refrigerators, or even clean the entire house; right down to washing the walls, but my husband stuck himself in the kitchen, and cleaned it from top to bottom, then started all over again...this was OCD behavior I was seeing in him brought on by heavy guilt.
And you know I wasn't helping matters by changing to unbalance him further within himself during his crisis. :)
Yet, this made him THINK more deeply about what he was doing during this first bout of crisis; and I remembered him saying later that he became frightened that he would lose me; I was metaphorically turning my back on him; wouldn't speak to him unless he spoke to me first. He would have to ask me questions that brought on one word answers, and nothing further...and it frustrated him to NO end....and I cannot say how that forced him to look inward in that aspect, but it did.
I didn't know at that time, I just knew it was the right thing to do. That aspect of staying quiet has remained to a certain extent, as I stay quiet to give him room to talk to me....sometimes the silence scares him; and he'll ask me if I'm OK...I do remind him I'm trying to give him room to start a conversation if he chooses. :)
If he gets mad; I don't get mad back; another change in me. I just let him spin out, then ask him if he's finished getting mad. This actually worked well during the crisis; when he would start spewing all kind of of crap. I would just listen, not try to correct or even judge what he was saying; and when he was finished, I'd ask him if he felt better.
I said many times that right or wrong, he had a right to how he felt; and one time, I got so tired of hearing him spew about my supposed shortcomings that I jumped in there and started agreeing with everything he said only to hear him start arguing the OTHER direction IN my favor, LOL!!
I never fell over in shock when that happened.
I didn't do that but one time; but it told me how easily a MLC'er could change direction in their rants, spews and confusion. The anger within them, however, really does need to burn out; and the only way to bring it all out, is to listen to them rant until they have spewed it ALL out of them, and there's nothing left.
He got it ALL out during his first crisis; but the anger of the 7 year old during his second bout of crisis continued on and on and on...and I cannot say for sure if that child ever released all of negative emotion he held within him.
I'm hoping he did, in spite of the fact I did NOT like him at all; no kidding, and he did NOT like me, either, LOL! He didn't like our son any more than he liked me; but Son managed to do MORE with him than I was able to do in the way of breaking cycles, and "making him mind". Maybe the anger got spewed all over our son...I never thought to ask him about that aspect. :)
And lookee here, I just derailed myself. LOL!!!
But you get the idea of changing yourself; when you know certain behaviors are guaranteed to cause them to spew, or feeds their justification; change them to something else that will throw the MLC'er off guard. If you like the change, KEEP it; if not, the "old" will return given time.
Now, on me, very little "old" is present; the major changes I made in me was staying calm in the face of conflict when I would threw tantrums before(and these are immature behaviors), I negotiate when before I would literally demand, I let go of more than I ever let go of in my life; and I truly recognized the need I'd had to "fix and control"....and while I ask him if he needs help, I actually see what it is he's doing BEFORE I offer my help.
I'm more apt to back off, and allow him room to figure it out on his own.
He's more apt to wait until he knows he really CAN'T do something before he calls me for help; and this is NEW with him. There are various things he honestly CANNOT do; and these I have no trouble helping him with, or even doing for him. There are other things I really can't do; and so I call upon him for help, and he WILL pitch right in and help me; where he would NOT have done that before.
He called me today to see if I minded watching the load board for awhile; he had finally gotten very frustrated, couldn't find a load; and the loads he'd gotten earlier kept cancelling; and that IS frustrating. He was driving; so I took over watching for him; called him with a couple that he decided NOT to take; I didn't get impatient with him..he IS, after all, the one who has to deal once the load is booked; and his decisions are respected by me. I'd kept watching; then the phone rang; and it was him; but somehow I'd known he would get a load, and he did, indeed, have one.
He thanked me kindly for taking over for him for awhile; apologized for the trouble he was putting me to; ah, shoot, that was all right, I wasn't going anywhere anyway; so, I was fine with that.
But the point is he ASKED me, he did not "tell" me like he would have before his first crisis. He will make suggestions, and sometimes he will raise the issue that I don't always take his advice; but then I remind him that he doesn't always take MINE either. :)
If it's something I don't want to do, I will say no, and stand on it; and he's the same way. We don't "bully" each other...it is a level of respect we have come to in this life post crisis; and we seem to be balanced pretty well, no one is "above" the other.
Everything is open for discussion; and I find we are agreeing to disagree if we can't get on the same page about various things we feel differently about more than we ever had before the crisis came about. Before, he would throw a literal fit to get his way(he was not any different in this aspect than I had been before his crisis), now, he just listens, speaks his mind, and takes whatever I decide as fine with him; and it's the same for me.
We have our weaknesses, and our strengths; and I take over for his weaknesses, and he takes over for mine...now, don't start laughing, LOL, I have weaknesses, too. I can figure out some things; but some things, I have NO clue; and so I ask him about what I don't understand; especially if it's mechanical or something of that nature.
Aw, now, SOME things I suppose I COULD figure out; but that wouldn't leave him much to help me with, LOL!!
He's good about letting me know about weather in a certain place he knows I'm going to; and I'm good at digging him out using Google Maps IF he gets lost, and this DOES happen, sometimes, EVEN with a GPS...that dang thing might lead you into the woods, if you don't watch it, LOL!!
The point is we've become a team that really does work together with each other. We have our times of problems, but we solve them together...and this new marriage is honestly MUCH different than the old one was.
I don't find myself problem solving on my own much at all; he really IS there to help me; and I can use all the help I can get. LOL!! :)
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Look at it this way; the slower he navigates, the more likely he will get all of his issues faced, resolved, settled and healed; and this gives you MORE time to get yourself and your journey finished.
Well, I sure hope this is true.... my H takes the prize for moving slowly..... :)
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HB
I agree with your behaviour regarding being different towards your H,
treating him like a friend that I hardly knew. I was polite, nice to a certain extent; but I wasn't talking to him much at all.
My H and I had a meal a few months ago and I acted like you described above - he talked for 5 hours virtually non stop - asked all about me but let slip he knows a lot about me - where I am working , what( project) on etc (he even admitted checking out the city I was working in??) and didn't seem to mind when I asked him 'why did you cycle around X city' he said, because you are working there?
other things he is doing are small and subtle messages via kids and others that mean something to me and him but are undetected by others ... yet he still seems to be running - keeps his life full on busy - would and does accept the invite to the opening of anything, now go's for walks - new behaviour - less cycling (on a road bike). He is less augmentative and has been described by friends and work colleagues as 'gentle' and subdued in work situations - not the old him ???
He contacts me then runs again and I see less of the replay activities but then sometimes they are visible, but less full on .........
He seems to treat our D 21 as if she was me - her view, and she ignores his banter texts. I feel he is someone who is scared to say hey Im sorry about anything but recently apologised to D very quickly so that is good hey??
A friend told me last week, not seen him for 4 years to talk one to one with, that he thinks my H is having an Identity Crisis as he has been odd with him for the past 3 years (you don't say) but he thinks he is getting to grips with reality as he has seen changes but thinks he needs some talking too as it is affecting his work reputation? - they are on a project together - well it over to him, I said don't ask me to help (interfere) - he agreed I couldn't - will report if it makes any difference - not
holding my breath .. other wise I would be dead !!!
Again great info HB and timely for us all
BX
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TrustandLove- I'm with you on that one...my H is taking his sweet time!