Midlife Crisis: Support for Left Behind Spouses
Archives => Archived Topics => Topic started by: everhopeful on September 14, 2012, 05:23:29 AM
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Hey all, I've been thinking about my stand lately and something I think about a lot is why am I hanging on to this when I know that I could move on and have a satisfying life and most likely a new relationship? I know a lot of you have been doing this for a lot longer than me. What is keeping you in your stand, especially when it comes to getting involved with other people?
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Hi Ever, I will tell you the reason I stand.... The #1 reason is because the person I fell in love with (my MLCer H) is not currently in his right frame of mind, I know this man VERY well and everything that he once stood for has been replaced with really bad logic...#2 is that I also feel that being his wife I should try my best to understand that this is an EMOTIONAL CRISIS,my H is NOT AT ALL like the man I see before me - there is something seriously wrong with him, hence for "better or worse" and I take my wedding vow's seriously. #3 I LOVE HIM, and I will try my very best to keep my family from getting torn apart. #4 The LAST thing I want right now is a NEW RELATIONSHIP, life without my H has been hard but it hasn't been unsatisfying, I can create my OWN HAPPINESS from within - I have MANY things and people to be greatfull for, my H is/was just a part of my life (a very BIG part I might add) and I dearly MISS him, but he didn't define my life, he enhanced it.....With that being said, I will stand for ME, and time for me to heal and become whole again, if my H finds me during this time that would be a plus, but if not, at least I know that I STAYED TRUE TO MY MORAL VALUES AND WEDDING VOWS, and that I will have a clear conscious to proceed into the next phase of my
journey called life....And that is why I STAND......
Hugs,
Truly :)
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Excellent Truly
Does anyone know who wrote the wedding vows?
They must have been pretty smart IMHO?
and they must have known about MLC, to be able to write them into the vows like that.
What does anyone else think?
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I agree.. I stand for the love of my H and I meant my vows. I also think that unless the marriage is beyond repair that "moving on" could only bring more heartache. I want to know that I did everything in my power to try and make it through this difficult part of our lives. Plus there are no guarantees that the grass is greener, that I might not meet another, fall in love again only to go through this again. I have been emotional, financial invested in this relationship for 23 years and I owe it to myself to see this to the end. I also believe, from what others have told me and from what I have seen here, that you will truly know when and if it is time to end your stand.
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Truly,
I 100% agree with every word you said. I ABSOLUTELY LOVE my H! He was IT for me. He did not complete me, he did not take away from me....he simply added something....without him I am still whole, with him I am simply greater than a whole :).....I also stand for my children since they are too young to stand for themselves....
I loved what you wrote Truly!
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everhopeful,
thank you for bringing that up.
I feel I have been a bit 'wobbly' in my stand recently, hence I appreciate the conversation.
I second all of the things Truly has written. This for me is about being honest to myself, and as long as I know that I would take my H back no matter what, I will continue my stand.
However, I have to say that (2 years post BD) I sometimes secretly wish I could move on. I am 36 and H and I had been planning to have children. I keep feeling that I am coming close to the end of my journey, when H doesn't seem to be anywhere near the end of his. The loneliness is beginning to get to me a bit.
Right now, I know have to follow this path though and I keep praying for a positive outcome.
peonyxxxx
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I Stand because I love my wife, and I see her crisis as a phase she has to go through. My hope is that she will reach a point where she chooses to be with me again, and I am willing to give her the time to come to that decision.
Also, there is no guarantee that a new relationship with someone else will be better or any more likely to last; it's a fact that the likelihood of divorce in marriages after the first goes up. Which makes sense; once you have chosen to believe that a marriage is unsalvageable, you are likely to come to that conclusion in later relationships as well, and often more quickly.
As for getting involved with other people while Standing? I don't.
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I understand everhopeful's question. I've been contemplating this for a good long time myself. Many write that their spouses are currently in crisis, and they are not themselves. How do you know that this is not the new 'them'?
In my case, not much really has changed... She is still doing all the things she used to do, just without me. There really is no hatred, or monster... just that she wants to live alone, and be a single mother. Because she doesn't love me anymore.
I've come to realize that she does have an Avoidant Personality Disorder. Something that I didn't even know about.
I've come to realize that those with this disorder may not be able to fully meet a spouse's needs emotionally. She could never talk to me heart to heart... I knew something was missing in her... I always wondered why I was able to talk to my sister and many other friends freely, but I couldn't do the same with her. I just couldn't pinpoint what it was.
In all the time that we've been together, I can count the number of disagreements (arguments) we've had in one hand. That is also abnormal.
I feel so sorry for her. Those with this disorder are so afraid of conflict, that they 'pretend to be happy' and let others have it their way. They are so afraid of someone not liking them, and ridiculing them that they prefer to have no friends.
My ex has no friends in the 23 years I've known her. I thought it to be a bit odd, but accepted it. She doesn't speak to her sister nor her mother.
Although many of the things she has done showed signs of MLC, there is no way for me to be 100% sure. I have almost no doubt that she has an Avoidant Personality Disorder though. There is a correlation between AvPD and MLC.
I've also never had a long term relationship with another woman, so I really didn't know how life could be. Now I realize your spouse can also be your friend, and meet your needs emotionally. My ex was always aloof, a bit cool emotionally, not very affectionate... except in the beginning of our relationship. She never talked to me at length about her wants and needs... never 'dreamed' with me. Everything we talked about was very task or moment driven. What to eat, what to do for the kids.... etc. She always seem to have a mild level of depression.... never really joked or laughed.
Even our kids say mommy never laughs...
If you are to stand, how do you know how long to stand for? Perhaps my ex being divorced, no longer needs to pretend that she is happy, and pretend to like the things I like... or pretend to be the happy stay at home mom.
Getting a job may be difficult for her.... and finding another man to marry.... not sure how easy that is too....
This just means continued lifetime alimony for me. I really love her, but I wonder why I never saw this evident personality disorder in her... perhaps I did, but dismissed it. I knew she was a little off, but didn't know it would affect so greatly.
I know that there are no guarantees in another relationship, and there are so many damaged souls out there (myself included) that finding someone else seems like a gamble. I have not given up on hope and love and marriage.
I still believe in it, but if Ex was to R with me, what's to prevent this from happening 10, 15 or 20 years from now? At that point, 'starting over' would be impossible, and I would be looking for a dependable companion to take care of me, and me of her. I've never had so much doubt about my future as I have now.
It's 20 months after BD, and we are complete with our D, and our marital home is finally sold. I've always cycled between wanting to stand, and wanting to move on- even since the beginning right after BD. This has not changed.
It is not likely that should would risk the humiliation to come and apologize to me or to see an R. That is at the crux of her avoidant characteristics. Even if she did it today, I'm not sure what I would say.
I love her as much as the next stander, but what is best for me and my future? Many Questions, very few answers.
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I don't know why I'm standing anymore to be quite frank.
It defies good sense.
The damage he's caused to our family is enormous.
My feelings for him are bruised , numb or dead.
Still a strand of something that ties me to him is there.
I can't explain it.
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The biggest reason is that God told me to Stand. But my love for my H and confusion over the flip in his personality and actions, combined with the trauma we'd gone through over the last few years and the psychiatric care he'd received, told me he wasn't just making bad choices, something is WRONG. The love we shared for so long is worth more than to cut and run when even the people around him can see he is not himself. Our vows, our life, our family...all things that God has sustained in order to provide the time for the healing to happen. I Stand because it's what feels right.
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I think, for me, I need to Stand - for myself - before I can move on.
I think Standing is about giving yourself the time to heal....and to become strong. Spending the time doing mirror work....improving myself...finding what makes me happy.
If, during the time that I Stand, my H should wake up and want to pursue some relationship with me....then I would be open for that. I no longer Stand for him or our marriage. That marriage is over....dead....and gone. I've mourned it. I miss it. But, it is a time that has passed.
How long will I Stand? I don't know. I just take it a day at a time.
At least that is how I feel today.
limitless
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I think that everyone on the forum needs to question their stand or they are not moving forward. While I am a man of faith, I still study the bible and read scripture to develop a deeper understanding of my relationship with GOD and my own purpose in life. It is all part of my own journey towards wholeness.
MLC is a test in faith. It rocks your beliefs to the core and for a brief moment, I lost my faith in everything. Now, I feel that I am stronger than I was before BD and that my ability to understand and empathize with others is a gift I have received from the crisis. I have discovered a resolve in myself that I never knew was inside of me.
I stand now because I do see my wife as not well. I also see that I am not ready to be in another relationship. That I still love my wife and I do pray and hope that she finishes her journey and returns to me. In the meantime, I focus on my life and take advantage of all it still offers me. I mean, I am on a forum with a great group of people. I am still amazed at how some people have survived and even thrived despite the crisis. I have formed close friendships and ties with people all over the world.
I also stand because I believe in MLC and that it is a process that takes time. I also stand for my two daughters who still need a strong and powerful influence in their lives.
I stand because I believe in my love for my wife. But most of all, I stand because of the love I have for myself.
(((((hugs))))) to all
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Hi Ever, I will tell you the reason I stand....
The#1 reason is because the person I fell in love with (my MLCer H) is not currently in his right frame of mind, I know this man VERY well and everything that he once stood for has been replaced with really bad logic...
#2 is that I also feel that being his wife I should try my best to understand that this is an EMOTIONAL CRISIS,my H is NOT AT ALL like the man I see before me - there is something seriously wrong with him, hence for "better or worse" and I take my wedding vow's seriously.
#3 I LOVE HIM, and I will try my very best to keep my family from getting torn apart.
#4 The LAST thing I want right now is a NEW RELATIONSHIP, life without my H has been hard but it hasn't been unsatisfying, I can create my OWN HAPPINESS from within - I have MANY things and people to be greatfull for, my H is/was just a part of my life (a very BIG part I might add) and I dearly MISS him, but he didn't define my life, he enhanced it.....
With that being said, I will stand for ME, and time for me to heal and become whole again, if my H finds me during this time that would be a plus, but if not, at least I know that I STAYED TRUE TO MY MORAL VALUES AND WEDDING VOWS, and that I will have a clear conscious to proceed into the next phase of my journey called life....And that is why I STAND......
Hugs,
Truly :)
No point writing this out again. I just put spaces so I could read it again [copied to my journal, I'll pretend I wrote it ;D ;D]
why would i read it again. not because i have DOUBTS :o :o
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Why have I been standing?
Because I believe it's what God would have me to do.
Because I vowed that I would, to God, and to my husband, so I should honor that.
Because a restored marriage (from what I have heard) is THE BEST RELATIONSHIP.
Because I would hope that if it were me having the MLC, my husband would stand.
Because there's no guarantee new relationships won't end up the same, or worse.
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Ready says it so well, as ever. As do the others.
I do agree that we need to question our stand during this process, and that it is normal and natural to do so -- we don't just do this blindly. RCR also writes that it is all about bending with the circumstances, changing what we do as things change.
When things are absolutely horrible it is natural to wonder what we are doing; that is where accepting the process comes in.
And I don't get involved in another relationship because that wouldn't solve anything. That is one thing I am certain of.
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This is such a good topic.
Why do I stand. HMMMMMMMM, on several occasions I have asked myself this very question.
I stand because I have loved this man for 26 years. I too hope that when he comes out of this, he will realize that I'm worth being married to.
I stand because I too took vowels, for better or worse, and this is definitely the worse.
I stand because we have built a life together, have 2 beautiful girls that deserve to have a whole family.
I stand because, I hope that he will be a better husband then he has been in the last 17 months.
I stand because I know that he is going through a journey.
I stand because of his journey, I was made to take a journey also, and because of this journey, I am a better person.
I stand because I'm not a quitter and never have been.
I stand because I think hes worth it.
FH
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The#1 reason is because the person I fell in love with (my MLCer H) is not currently in his right frame of mind, I know this man VERY well and everything that he once stood for has been replaced with really bad logic...
I am faltering here. I have been with H for 13 years. We hardly spend time with others. I still am not sure I know or trust him. We had a minor break up in 2001 that lasted 2 months or so. And every time we travel together he has a theatrical blow-up and disappears for an extended period (overnight, or just hours). I know a lot about him but I still can't explain some of his behavior. I am not sure the person who was acting that way 10 years ago is different from the person who is acting REALLY weird now.
#2 is that I also feel that being his wife I should try my best to understand that this is an EMOTIONAL CRISIS, my H is NOT AT ALL like the man I see before me - there is something seriously wrong with him, hence for "better or worse" and I take my wedding vow's seriously.
I do agree that my H is having an emotional/mental/identity crisis. He may also be an alcoholic. I agree on the "forbetter or worse, In sickness and in health" vow.
#3 I LOVE HIM, and I will try my very best to keep my family from getting torn apart.
Ditto that one.
#4 The LAST thing I want right now is a NEW RELATIONSHIP, life without my H has been hard but it hasn't been unsatisfying, I can create my OWN HAPPINESS from within - I have MANY things and people to be greatfull for, my H is/was just a part of my life (a very BIG part I might add) and I dearly MISS him, but he didn't define my life, he enhanced it.....
And ditto that one, too. I think I would enjoy missing H MORE in fact right about now.
With that being said, I will stand for ME, and time for me to heal and become whole again, if my H finds me during this time that would be a plus, but if not, at least I know that I STAYED TRUE TO MY MORAL VALUES AND WEDDING VOWS, and that I will have a clear conscious to proceed into the next phase of my journey called life....And that is why I STAND......
I stand knowing that I may stand for an impossible marriage, that what I hope for has almost no chance of becoming realized, and yet I continue to stand for my own spirit, and for the simple fact that it is the right thing to do.
Thanks, Truly (and CJ) for letting me borrow your thoughts!
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I don't know why I stand but I do. Perhaps it's because I am too afraid to move on. A lot of uncertainty there.
I know many of those around me are trying to push me to give up. I don't verbalize that I am standing but they know.
But mainly I love my H and feel that right now today that this is where I should be. Perhaps it's a gift or a calling of some sort. Only time will tell the whole story.
In the meantime, standing gives me the time and space to heal and work on myself. What's the hurry as many have said I know I am not ready to open my heart to anyone else at this time.
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2 years ago I prayed and asked God if I could divorce my wife.
I heard him say "not yet"
He's not given me an update so I guess the information is still the same.
And the kids...
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Well, I tried dating. From my experience I learned a few things.
Firstly, I'm not able to give myself to someone right now - I think I'm still in love with the person I shared so much of my life with and I need to accept they have gone - which is hard to do for one reason - they're two blocks away and texting me about our children, and my son has her eyes.
Secondly, dating in midlife is very different than dating as a teen or twenty something. It seems more complicated, and difficult. It seems to add more complication.
Thirdly - my children. I don't know how to give them focus, look after my home, and my job and also build a relationship with someone else. How on earth do these MLCers do it? Where do they find people happy to be part of that? It's juggling too much. I don't know how I feel about introducing another person into their lives, or how I would be with a partner's children.
Finally - me. I'm damaged. I have to fix how I feel about relationships, trust, love, my faith. I feel that I took loving for granted before - how did I live so many years with a person keeping so many deep, sad secrets and not know? What does that say about me?
So - Why would you stand instead of moving on? I feel like I'm moving on ... Trying to help my children grow, have time with me, eat well, be dressed well, talk ... I'm trying to make new friends, learn a new language, improve my running, get a promotion, travel. Hoping that one day I can trust in a relationship again ... I'm not sure I'm 'standing' as much as healing - though I know deep down that my heart is broken and that I miss my wife/friend. I just don't know if I'll have that friendship again. I hope so, but that's not what I'm expecting. I also don't think the time is right to try to re-create it with someone else, though I am lonely sometimes.
bnw
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This is just what I was wondering? Why am I standing for a man who has cheated, lied and betrayed me and my children? I am pretty angry today and keep wondering if my stand shows a lack of self respect.
Truth is I agree with truly. But above all I feel like my H is a different person. Not sure how lOng I will last, not sure I can do this for years. Sometimes I wonder if I will meet someone new and fall in love, I don't want that for me or my kids, but I am open to it in a kind of fairy tale way. And we all know fairy tales are fiction. It seems to have happened for my H so why not me !!!!!!!!
Aaaaargh this is such a confusing and devastating part of my life but I am surviving and growing and beginning to thrive. I have compassion for my H but I am also pretty angry at times. It's my kids I am angry with him for, but if he's not himself I can empathise and understand.
I don't think I will last years like many here but I will take each day as it comes. It's all so weird! :-\
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I wavered for a long time and did Stayed´s 3 month rule- it takes nine months of asking yourself every three months whether you´re in or out. For me, having h´s newly adopted stray rip off a part of my lip, having h make anti-semitic remarks, being ditched in the ER, and having h refuse to put me back on his insurance with a likely and then confirmed MS dx, all that, finally, allowed me to let go. Maybe all that was a "gift" in actually allowing me to let go.
The further you get from the initial craziness, the more you realize that you are not the cause and that you deserve to have your needs met in a R. My h does not see himself as having any sort of mental issue and has left his former life behind. I "honor" his request to be treated as if he has no illness in how I interact- now only via email. I realize now, that he will always lie to tell people what they want to hear and the odds of him doing the work to ditch the passive aggressive conflict avoiding behaviors are about nil- too much work.
I stand and stood for me, to heal from the inside out, to regain the ability to trust and love and with an open heart. Yea, I´ve got scars- if I wore them on my face, I´d look like one of those tribal people in Natl. Geographic, but hey, in their culture, those scars are considered beautiful. We all have been through the MOST painful experience and we keep on going. Yes, as Ready says, it makes you more empathetic and less judgmental. That´s a silver lining as well as meeting the amazing people on this site. I still come here b/c of you all. I realize that without kids, it changes things a lot and I am thankful not to have to see the damage inflicted on kids. That would make me very angry. I have stuck to my "better, not bitter" mantra and it results in a healthier me.
Whether you like it or not, every day past BD you are moving on in a sense, ´cause if you´re not, you are wallowing.
FTT
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Thirdly - my children. I don't know how to give them focus, look after my home, and my job and also build a relationship with someone else. How on earth do these MLCers do it? Where do they find people happy to be part of that? It's juggling too much. I don't know how I feel about introducing another person into their lives, or how I would be with a partner's children.
BNW - I'm always amazed at the MLCers who do still have the children in their lives, because my H managed this by ditching all parental responsibility (apart from financial), so that he had plenty of time for his new life with the new people in it.
He has popped in and out of their lives at his leisure, when it suits him. They definitely are coming off a very poor fourth after his work, the OW, and his new 'mates'.
There is no way I could do the same thing to them. They do not deserve to be emotionally abandoned by both parents.
Plus, as I have the sole responsibility for my kids, I can't imagine inflicting yet more damage onto them - as I'm the one who would have to deal with it.
Wouldn't want that for either them or myself.
I guess I'm doing this because it just feels like the right thing to be doing for now.
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Thirdly - my children. I don't know how to give them focus, look after my home, and my job and also build a relationship with someone else. How on earth do these MLCers do it? Where do they find people happy to be part of that? It's juggling too much. I don't know how I feel about introducing another person into their lives, or how I would be with a partner's children.
BNW - I'm always amazed at the MLCers who do still have the children in their lives, because my H managed this by ditching all parental responsibility (apart from financial), so that he had plenty of time for his new life with the new people in it.
He has popped in and out of their lives at his leisure, when it suits him. They definitely are coming off a very poor fourth after his work, the OW, and his new 'mates'.
There is no way I could do the same thing to them. They do not deserve to be emotionally abandoned by both parents.
Plus, as I have the sole responsibility for my kids, I can't imagine inflicting yet more damage onto them - as I'm the one who would have to deal with it.
Wouldn't want that for either them or myself.
I guess I'm doing this because it just feels like the right thing to be doing for now.
Kikki I agree, my H seems to have found a little bit of responsibility to kids but sine BD been acting like the fun uncle breezing in and out if he hasn't any work commitments or holidays planned with ow! I am so happy I cannot begin to think like this, my kids come first and I'm proud of that in me and you.
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This is just what I was wondering? Why am I standing for a man who has cheated, lied and betrayed me and my children? I am pretty angry today and keep wondering if my stand shows a lack of self respect.
Truth is I agree with truly. But above all I feel like my H is a different person.........
.................Aaaaargh this is such a confusing and devastating part of my life but I am surviving and growing and beginning to thrive. I have compassion for my H but I am also pretty angry at times. It's my kids I am angry with him for,
DITTO!
...........I stand and stood for me, to heal from the inside out, to regain the ability to trust and love and with an open heart. Yea, I´ve got scars- if I wore them on my face, I´d look like one of those tribal people in Natl. Geographic, but hey, in their culture, those scars are considered beautiful. We all have been through the MOST painful experience and we keep on going. Yes, as Ready says, it makes you more empathetic and less judgmental. That´s a silver lining as well as meeting the amazing people on this site. I still come here b/c of you all. I realize that without kids, it changes things a lot and I am thankful not to have to see the damage inflicted on kids. That would make me very angry. I have stuck to my "better, not bitter" mantra and it results in a healthier me.
Whether you like it or not, every day past BD you are moving on in a sense, ´cause if you´re not, you are wallowing.
FTT, i just heard pastor this morning on the radio preach from James and the message was titled "Better, not bitter"
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Yeah my D16 yelled at me the other day "He destroyed this family and now you're thinking about having sex with him!!" She got out of the car and slammed the door. D19 just sat there and said it wasn't fair what her sister had said.
D16 did a turn around and I haven't asked her about it yet...in July she was wondering if we had...with a smile on her face....2 months later she's all ticked off about it.
I have to ask her sometime soon what she's feeling. I don't want them to feel betrayed by me...that they think that I think that everything he's done to them or me is just a-okay so now we can have sex..it's not ok with me what happened to them and what I watched.
He only knows about thier pain through me and not what they expressed themselves. These are young women I'm raising and I have to be clear on what is going on as I can see right now. HE'S the one that brought sex into the forefront by moving the B!tch in here. So now I have to deal with it with the girls. ::)
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Hi,
BD was 2/2010 and I continue to stand because it feels right. I agree with Limitless comments. Think it is more for my benefit of healing, growth
and self reflection. My family and friends want me to move on b/c in their minds that would indicate I am over h(x), but I want my heart to be whole and healthy before I enter into another relationship whether it is my h(x) or another man.
ODAAT
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One Day-
Take a serious look at what mistakes you may have made for yourself- not in regards to him but your own possible contribution to the breakdown of the relationship.
Learn from it ..recognize it.. and don't make the same mistakes again.
Your next relationship whether with him or someone else will be better for it. Don't try to be something you think someone else might want. This is what I've learned. ;)
For me the differance between standing and waiting became a blurry line.
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Bomb drop was 10 months ago and I am seriously asking myself this question. Today I feel like I should move on. i have given him every opportunity, been charitable, kind, polite, unquestioning, in short I feel like I have been on model behavior. However his willingness to trample on my feelings, to say things which are cruel, and to abandon his children has led me to question my stand.
Not that I am about to divorce him. No he will have to do that, I won't. I will take no part in his nonsense.
From what I know of his OW she will boot him out as soon as he no longer has a good job.
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Yeah my D16 yelled at me the other day "He destroyed this family and now you're thinking about having sex with him!!" She got out of the car and slammed the door. D19 just sat there and said it wasn't fair what her sister had said.
I guess we'd all have to admit, that at a grass roots level, your D16 is absolutely correct InThis.
I too sometimes wonder about this, and I have sons. Will they be disgusted at my 'lack of self worth' (in their eyes), if my H and I ever reconcile.
With daughters - I can't even begin to imagine the turmoil that they will feel about it all.
I think I'm just cycling myself today. Usually I am without question - I stand for me first and foremost - to heal from this disaster, and then for the good of the family unit. And because I thought the man I married was a good man (not perfect, but a good man none the less) - a complete contrast to this narcissistic creature.
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I told d16 yesterday that I didn't want her to lose respect for me...that all I'm doing is sleeping with him Nothing else. And I've been doing that because D19 is downstairs playing xbox starting at about the time I need to go to bed.
I told her I really have no place to sleep other than the couch . But I have to think about my own self and my back is killing me after a few days there.
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Hi InThis - I do think at the end of the day that if you choose to sleep or 'sleep' with your H, then you will have very good reasons for doing so.
None of us would take our spouses back lightly after this treatment. And it no doubt stems from your D not wanting you to get hurt again, and she is no doubt trying to protect both herself and you from that potential.
You must do what is right for you.
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I guess we'd all have to admit, that at a grass roots level, your D16 is absolutely correct InThis.
I too sometimes wonder about this, and I have sons. Will they be disgusted at my 'lack of self worth' (in their eyes), if my H and I ever reconcile.
With daughters - I can't even begin to imagine the turmoil that they will feel about it all.
My daughter said to me, "if you ever take her (W) back, don't expect me to be there to pick up the pieces."
honour
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Is there something wrong with teaching children lessons of forgiveness and reconciliation? I think it's a question worthy of asking ourselves.
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Is there something wrong with teaching children lessons of forgiveness and reconciliation? I think it's a question worthy of asking ourselves.
As a very intelligent and independent twenty-three year old, living away from home, she can and does, think for herself. As a youngster she learnt right and wrong from non other than her mother.
honour
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Is there something wrong with teaching children lessons of forgiveness and reconciliation? I think it's a question worthy of asking ourselves.
As a very intelligent and independent twenty-three year old, living away from home
Then certainly in your case she wouldn't need to be there to pick up any pieces
As a youngster she learnt right and wrong from non other than her mother.
I would imagine children learn lessons from both their mother and father.
Speaking only of what I know of my own ex-wife, I am proud of things she taught others......she was in her right "mind" then and had a very very good head on her shoulders.
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I have asked my D now 14...( 12 at BD ) how she views what I have done over the last 2 years with regards to My H...
She doesnt think I am some sort of doormat, She actually understood that daddy was/is sick and I was standing by him
"in sickness and in health" and that I have forgiven him but by NO means was what he did RIGHT. My H has even discussed
his behaviour recently with her and he said that it was up to HIM to make it right with me...(and her) and told her that what
he did was VERY wrong.
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Then certainly in your case she wouldn't need to be there to pick up any pieces
If "being there" meant being geographically or physically present was a prerequisite for being willing and able to help and give support, then this forum community wouldn't work.
Over the past two years I've received life saving and life supporting contact with people I'm honoured and privileged to know and call friends yet have never met them in person and don't know who they are accept by a username. My daughter and I know each other a little more than that.
honour
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Then certainly in your case she wouldn't need to be there to pick up any pieces
If "being there" meant being geographically or physically present was a prerequisite for being willing and able to help and give support, then this forum community wouldn't work.
Agreed
A point being as her father, you teach her important life lessons.....forgiveness, how to treat others and relational skills included.
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told her that what
he did was VERY wrong
This is paramount to the kids being able to heal AND so these MLCERs SEE THINGS THROUGH THE CHILDRENS EYES INSTEAD OF THIER OWN. IMHO
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Then certainly in your case she wouldn't need to be there to pick up any pieces
If "being there" meant being geographically or physically present was a prerequisite for being willing and able to help and give support, then this forum community wouldn't work.
Agreed
A point being as her father, you teach her important life lessons.....forgiveness, how to treat others and relational skills included.
She is one of the most caring, compassionate people I know; she is a health care professional, knows how to treat others and has good relational skills. She will forgive in her own time. I can not "teach" her how to interact with her mother, a woman I know longer know. That is between the two of them.
honour
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I don't know if what I'm teaching my daughters is forgiveness.. but I'm trying not to send the wrong message.
Example Thanksgivng 2010 he wanted to come for dinner. The b!tch was still here. First I said yes..it was selfish on my part then I told him no. I told him I wasn't willing to have him sit at a table with me and our daughters and then leave to go back up here with her. It showed NO RESPECT for myself or them.
And I wouldn't tolerate that behavior from a son- in -law either. If I was invited to my adult daughters house for Thanksgiving and some whacked out MLCER they married sat there at the table with my grandchildren and I knew he was living with some useless s!ut I would leave. Probably not before I told him EXACTLY what I thought of him though.
These MLCers have to forgive themselves FIRST!! We can tell them or try to show them we forgive them from now until the cows come home and it won't work unless THEY WANT TO TRY to understand why they did what they did...make whatever sense of it..accept it...and forgive THEMSELVES!!
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There are times it's very appropriate to say no.
Forgiveness is about more than the MLCer.
RCR has a good article on the subject.
http://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/self-focus_unconditionals_forgiveness.html
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I too wonder what message Im sending my d's. I have always told them that if they are with someone that doesnt treat them with respect, tenderness, love. Show that they appreciate them, that they dont deserve them.
Here I am, staying with a man that said that he didnt want me, wanted a divorce and was willing to throw his family away. They were the ones that showed me he was talking with "friends". They are the ones that came to me and said, "dad is sneeking around talking on the phone" They are the ones that caught him on more then one occasion and when they asked him about it, lied to them.
I try to tell them that I'm still here because I love dad and Im taking this time to work on me. But, they are constantly asking me, what's going to happen. We all live, waiting for the other shoe to drop.
I know it weighs on them. For as long as I can remember I have told them not to put up with all the things that I have. Lying, deceiving, betraying. So, I do worry that I am sending them the wrong message.
Honestly, I any of my girls were dating a man that constantly lied, betrayed them I would tell them to run in the opposite direction.
FH
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Honestly, I any of my girls were dating a man that constantly lied, betrayed them I would tell them to run in the opposite direction.
I would too.
In MLC framework, we are talking about spouses who are going through an emotional/identity crisis typically after many years of marriage as opposed to a dating relationship.
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DGU,
I understand that, but my girls don't. I once tried to explain to them that dad was going through something that he needed to figure out himself. I mentioned MLC, they both rolled their eyes.
I feel in some ways I need to protect my h in regards to telling them too much about MLC. I know that they would not believe me. I had thought once about showing them this site and letting them read for themselves but that would expose me. My h found me on here once. This is my safe place.
They see his strange behaviour, sitting in his truck, staying on the computer. At first they thought it was wierd, now it's the new normal for dad. I worry alot about what my girls are thinking. I try to talk to him about it but, they dont want to. I think sometimes they are dissappointed in me.
They both say that you and dad are the white elephant in the room. I try as best I can to make this a "normal" for them as possible and just take the brunt of it. Keep them from seeing him in a different way.
I do have to say that the last 8 months or so he is getting closer to them. Does things for them that he would never had done before. For this they are happy.
Whatever happens between them, good or bad, I try to stay out of it. Im not the fixer anymore. But, being the mom, it doesnt stop me from worrying.
FH
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FH,
Just wanted to chime on here with regards to talking to our kids about MLC...First, I have tried to tell "adults" about MLC and I have gotten A TON of eye rolling...It holds that stigma of buying a sports car and dating a 20 year old..I hated that....but I just would say
ok, believe what you want, but dont come to me IF it happens to you, a good friend of mine, who has a husband that has NEVER
cheated...is dealing with some internal emotional stuff, he told my H a few weeks ago that while working out of town.
he fell apart and just sobbed for no reason...I had once said to his wife, It could happen to you and she said "no way, he would NEVER cheat on me" I said " well, that doesnt mean anything when it comes to MLC" SHe doesnt believe me.
But now that I see her husband is "going through something" I am expecting a big fallout within the next year or two.
When my H told me about his breakdown...he said " Do you think he is hitting MLC too?"
Anyway, I know I have gotten off topic...ugh sorry...Sometimes you just have to walk away from people who just dont understand, but when it is our kids, I think we are thier "teachers" about life at ANY age. so explaining MLC to them and maybe even getting
paperwork...printouts of facts about MLC, just might help to back your "story" up..Get them to understand this isnt a JOKE.
This is REAL LIFE and it can happen to ANYONE! including them in the future.
sorry for rambleing.
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My S 21 doesn't want to discuss any of this at all. So I leave him alone. On the other hand I have been very open and honest with my D19. Although she does not agree with my standing she always says she understands. Both my son and daughter have stated that they think it would be weird if my H came back. But on further discussion that is because the do not believe the "new" H belongs with me. Even commenting he is strange now.
However, if things were to Change with H's behavior I believe they would come around. They would be apprehensive and suspicious.
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I have asked my D now 14...( 12 at BD ) how she views what I have done over the last 2 years with regards to My H...
She doesnt think I am some sort of doormat, She actually understood that daddy was/is sick and I was standing by him
"in sickness and in health" and that I have forgiven him but by NO means was what he did RIGHT. My H has even discussed
his behaviour recently with her and he said that it was up to HIM to make it right with me...(and her) and told her that what
he did was VERY wrong.
This is a very good point Syn. I am sure the children will be far more open to accepting of it if/when they hear responsibility and a heartfelt apology from their MLC parent.
Just wanted to chime on here with regards to talking to our kids about MLC...First, I have tried to tell "adults" about MLC and I have gotten A TON of eye rolling...It holds that stigma of buying a sports car and dating a 20 year old..I hated that....but I just would say
ok, believe what you want, but dont come to me IF it happens to you, a good friend of mine, who has a husband that has NEVER
cheated...is dealing with some internal emotional stuff, he told my H a few weeks ago that while working out of town.
he fell apart and just sobbed for no reason...I had once said to his wife, It could happen to you and she said "no way, he would NEVER cheat on me" I said " well, that doesnt mean anything when it comes to MLC" SHe doesnt believe me.
But now that I see her husband is "going through something" I am expecting a big fallout within the next year or two.
When my H told me about his breakdown...he said " Do you think he is hitting MLC too?"
Anyway, I know I have gotten off topic...ugh sorry...Sometimes you just have to walk away from people who just dont understand, but when it is our kids, I think we are thier "teachers" about life at ANY age. so explaining MLC to them and maybe even getting
paperwork...printouts of facts about MLC, just might help to back your "story" up..Get them to understand this isnt a JOKE.
This is REAL LIFE and it can happen to ANYONE! including them in the future.
I also second this.
I also have a couple of friends who are quite opinionated about my H's behaviour, and don't want a bar of MLC theory. I sadly am watching signs of MLC in their spouses too.
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DGU, nothing wrong with teaching forgiveness and reconciliation but I think it is difficult to make people on their mid/late teens or early 20’s to be so patient and considering as we are. Are remember how my husband reacted towards is dad OW (not MLC, FIL is a certified philanderer). And I know I would react at that age if my mum or dad had a MLC and, then, were taken back. I would have not respect the parent that had accepted the MLCer back and probably would had despised the MLCer parent.
Some things only come with time/age/life experience. I know I wouldn’t have had a problem with a regular affair (my uncle had OW and that never kept me apart from him or my aunt and I never hold a thing against the by then OW, now wife). But a regular affair, even if it ends in divorce, is totally different from MLC. The spouse that has the affair does not treat the spouse the way our MLCers treat us. In a regular affair the cheater normally tries to sort things out.
True, MLC is different from a dating relationship or a short time marriage but I think most kids don’t see that much of a difference. Plus, they know the abuse we’ve been through and how their parent abandoned them. It is not an easy thing to deal with.
Kikki, remembering me and my cousins when we were young, doubt and heartfelt apology from the MLCer would do it. More than responsibility, kids want actions, they need to see things.
Syn, It is not easy to try to explain MLC to adults. Most people don’t get it and some never will. Some get it and are not willing to accept it or to care about it. Maybe your friend will get it now, maybe she just choose to divorce and move forward.
As for kids, not certain given them paperwork printouts and so on is such a good idea. They are kids, they have their lives, they don’t want to know about it. My younger brother is 21, he is an intelligent young man, he cannot care less about husband’s MLC. His view is: he is an idiot, he deserves to loose everything, no way I’m ever going to respect that fool again. Pretty much what would had been my view when I was 21.
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Some things only come with time/age/life experience.
Parents are the key influence during the formative years.
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Kikki, remembering me and my cousins when we were young, doubt and heartfelt apology from the MLCer would do it. More than responsibility, kids want actions, they need to see things.
I agree completely AnneJ. Sorry didn't explain that properly.
I assumed after the heartfelt apology, the actions to make amends would follow.
My kids have had two or three apologies from their Dad. As he spun away from us again, without the actions to follow, he just left more destruction and devastation to eventually clean up (or not :o )
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Some things only come with time/age/life experience.
Parents are the key influence during the formative years.
Yes but no matther of how much a key influence parents are during formative years some things are only learned with age/life experience. Plus, at certain ages kids are on their rebel years, they don't care or listen that much to parents and parents issues and do not see things the way an adult does. And I would say, good. Less likely of them to have a MLC.
Kikki, I've had apologies (and some where heartfelt) from husband years ago. We all know what followed. ::) ::) ::) Pretty much the same as with your husband, except we have no kids. Phew... ours are leaving a amazing trail of destruction and mess to be cleaned and dealt with. :o :o :o
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As far as what your friends and family think of your Stand or worrying about you being used or taken advantage of, reassure them that you are in control of your situation; that you are concerned about him taking advantage of you.
Remind them (and yourself!) that you are Standing by choice, and that you can end this any time you want.
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... dating in midlife is very different than dating as a teen or twenty something. It seems more complicated, and difficult. It seems to add more complication.
Thirdly - my children. I don't know how to give them focus, look after my home, and my job and also build a relationship with someone else. How on earth do these MLCers do it? Where do they find people happy to be part of that? It's juggling too much. I don't know how I feel about introducing another person into their lives, or how I would be with a partner's children.
Finally - me. I'm damaged. I have to fix how I feel about relationships, trust, love, my faith. I feel that I took loving for granted before - how did I live so many years with a person keeping so many deep, sad secrets and not know? What does that say about me?
So - Why would you stand instead of moving on? I feel like I'm moving on ... Trying to help my children grow, have time with me, eat well, be dressed well, talk ... I'm trying to make new friends, learn a new language, improve my running, get a promotion, travel. Hoping that one day I can trust in a relationship again ... I'm not sure I'm 'standing' as much as healing - though I know deep down that my heart is broken and that I miss my wife/friend. I just don't know if I'll have that friendship again. I hope so, but that's not what I'm expecting. I also don't think the time is right to try to re-create it with someone else, though I am lonely sometimes.
bnw
BNW´s words describe in detail how I feel about moving on myself. Thanks BNW for making it easy for me, your English is far better than mine ;)
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I agree with Hobo. I believe my ex has APD, and cannot truly express his feelings. Without this, an intimate relationship is impossible. I think my stand may be fruitless for the following reasons:
1. My ex-H is a Vanisher. He blindsided me, left, and never looked back. It was like a drive-by shooting and i was the victim. He has shown no respect, concern, or empathy for me. I wonder all the time if he ever really loved me. Or was I in a play and only H had the script?
2. We have no children.
3. I am 12 years older than he is. When we dated/married, he thought nothing of it. But at BD, I think it weighed on him. Oddly though, OW is 7 years older than he is.
4. He jumped into EA/PA with OW and has shown NO AMBIVALENCE. Only a desire to deepen the relationship with her. At BD, he barely knew her.
5. H filed for D as soon as he legally could.
6. He went public to famiily and work colleagues with affair right away. While we were still married. H moved far away and in with OW even before D finalized. He has shown no shame or remorse.
7. His family has dropped me completly.Even though they always professed to love me.
8. I believe he will marry OW. It may eventually fail. But I think he is full steam ahead.
I just don't see him coming back to me.
Ultimately, I really want a man. Not a child. Not someone capable of what he has done. I have love and compassion for him still. But he does not deserve me.
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Bird Soul,
I wanted to comment on your post...as it contains just about every fear the LBS can and does have. What you have posted has so many similarities to things I have thought (on and off) thoughout the past 2+ years.
My ex-H is a Vanisher. He blindsided me, left, and never looked back.
That is the thing about Bomb Drop and why it is called Bomb Drop. It comes out of nowhere! We don't see it coming. It is one of the litmus tests (in my opinion) that helps confirm MLC.
As far as "never looking back" - it is too early to really make that call. BD was December 2010. By all calculations - your H is still in Replay (run and avoid). Not looking back, at this point, would be normal.
I am 12 years older than he is. When we dated/married, he thought nothing of it. But at BD, I think it weighed on him. Oddly though, OW is 7 years older than he is.
I think you challenged your own point, in this comment. He told you (at BD) the fact you are older than he was an issue. Yet, his OW is also older than he. At BD, it could have been that you were 6' tall, or had brown hair, or cooked meat on Fridays. It doesn't matter. They look for reasons (however ridiculous) to support their feelings. It's not about how old you are. It never was.
He jumped into EA/PA with OW and has shown NO AMBIVALENCE. Only a desire to deepen the relationship with her. At BD, he barely knew her.
Very typical of the MLC affair. And the fact that he barely knew her is also indicative of MLC. One would think (someone logical) that, in order to leave your marriage, a person would need to really know their affair partner...and really have taken the time to confirm that it isn't just a "fantasy."
But, MLCers thrive on the fantasy. Not really knowing her is par for the course.
H filed for D as soon as he legally could.
Some MLCers do this...some do not. He sounds like he was/is high energy. He could have had pressure from OW. Who knows? What the MLCer does, while in Replay, is not an indicator of whether or not he/she will return. I do, however, believe that what the MLCer does in Replay can be an indicator of whether or not the MLCer has anyone to return to. Some LBS are not able to forgive. I certainly understand this. But, in order to Stand, you need to be able to forgive and let go of the pain.....when the time is right.
He went public to famiily and work colleagues with affair right away. While we were still married. H moved far away and in with OW even before D finalized. He has shown no shame or remorse.
Another sign of high energy. As far as the shame or remorse - he's not at that point, yet. He is in run and avoid. At this point, he is probably still blaming you. He cannot have shame or remorse for something he has not yet faced.
His family has dropped me completly.Even though they always professed to love me.
My H's family did the same. They also did this to our kids.
I think this was one of the worst of betrayals for me. I had been in their family for 30 years. It was like I didn't exist.
They seemed to take his side. My MIL was angry at my kids - for being mean to their father!
It took a while. At least a year or so. I think his family sees things differently now. I think they can see that something is "not right" with their Son. They have been kinder to the kids. They have even reached out to me a few times.
It seems that this type of treatment from the MLCers family is more like the norm. It's the old "blood is thicker than water" adage. This is their Son. For him to walk out on his family - I had to have been miserable to live with, right?
This doesn't make it right....but the in-laws are stuck in the middle and I am not their child. They choose sides. And, I believe, some (most?), will regret that decision.
I believe he will marry OW. It may eventually fail. But I think he is full steam ahead.
I'm glad that you can see that it (may) will eventually fail. This is a "relationship" built on lies and deceit. It will have very little chance of suvival.
Whether or not he will marry the OW - I guess time will tell. You are already divorced. Why, I wonder, has he not already done so? He has been really high energy. A quick marriage would be consistent. But, remember, MLCers are very inconsistent.
I hope that he does not take this step. But, there are several on this site whose MLCers have married the OW. That doesn't change that they are in crisis. And, it doesn't bring the all ellusive happiness that they seek.
I just don't see him coming back to me.
Ah! There it is! You said it! The deep fear that all of us (many of us) have on a daily basis.
I think that is the crux of it. We don't see the MLCer returning.
I believe that, for me, I just have to put my trust in the MLC process. (Which is pretty well documented on this site, other sites, and many books).
After all this time (and I know - in comparison with others here - my time has been short) - I no longer think about it in terms of a return. I trust the process. I accept that my H will move through the tunnel (or not) at his own pace. I accept that I cannot control or fix it. I believe that he will continue escape and avoid - until it no longer "works" for him - and, hopefully, he will come to a point where he will address his issues. I hope, for him, he reaches that point. I accept that it has little to do with me....and I cannot fix or control it.
I don't think, at this point, either of us can really predict what our MLCer will (or won't) do when they come to the later stages. How they are now - is not indicative of who they will be in the future.
I also think it is normal to feel as you do. I feel that way, as well, when I allow my fear and doubts to run amuk in my head.
You gave all the "logical" reasons why a return would not be possible in your H's case. MLC is not logical.
Thanks for sharing your post.
Hugs,
L
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I copied all that LL! How'd y'all get so smart! ;D ;D
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I copied all that LL! How'd y'all get so smart! ;D ;D
Calamityj me too! This is a supremely logical response in MLc terms to some perfectly logical fears (mine definitely) but as LL says this whole thing is illogical! We all just need to get eccentric and change our way of thinking, change our need for answers and logical explanations!
Thanks LL I will read and re read xx
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I copied all that LL! How'd y'all get so smart! ;D ;D
CJ,
I'm not so smart, trust me on this one. ;)
These are some of the things that I need to keep reminding myself....as I have the same doubts.
Limitless
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LL,
Thank you for that wonderful "deconstruction" of BirdSoul's post.
I strongly identified with many of BirdSoul's points, especially the total lack of remorse, reaction of in-laws, and strong belief that H will marry OW.
Your comments were calming and so very to the point. Exactly what I needed to hear right now.
Thank you!
TMHP
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As far as what your friends and family think of your Stand or worrying about you being used or taken advantage of, reassure them that you are in control of your situation; that you are concerned about him taking advantage of you.
Remind them (and yourself!) that you are Standing by choice, and that you can end this any time you want.
Good advice - I recently told a friend of mine that I didn't understand why people think I should follow their timeline. I personally was fine with my situation, my focus on me and like they said with the marriage Divorce is a piece of paper. H had to follow his own path and his own journey I was doing mine. He was 400 miles away so what was the big deal. They quickly shut it down mainly I think because they couldn't figure out why it was to follow their timeline not mine....lol.
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Great answer to friends and family pushing for this or that .... Why do you feel I have to follow your timeline?
I must say, I was a terrible mess for 3 months after Bd and many friends and all my family were frustrated with me for not filing for D, my B actually had a conversation with me where he said "basically you need to go back to the solicitor and say I want this all sorted in 6 weeks!". Six months later Hs stuff is still here, I have a much clearer sense of my own ability to make the right decision based upon what's best for me and the children. So heavy handed advice with someone who is so broken and vulnerable is so unfair. Friends and family felt angry and powerless I think. Maybe we should go back to the days where your family go and "give him a bloody good hiding" :) only joking!
It's all about reassuring them we are okay and in control (kind of :-/)
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Your comments were calming and so very to the point. Exactly what I needed to hear right now.
Yes. Calm is what is needed. :)
TT today I wrote in my journal:
I need to stop talking to others about my situation at all. It just makes me doubt myself & I take on others’ beliefs about what has happened—his view in fact: he fell in love with someone else. This makes me the victim & I refuse to play this role.
Family & friends want you to stop hurting & the only way they know is to divorce & move on. I am the only one who really knows my h & realises how weird all this really is. I trust my instincts but I am vulnerable to suggestions from others. I will keep my own counsel from now on, except for people here! :)
Mamma Bear said on someone's post:
Just open the kitchen door and let the rabid MLCer junkyard dog run wild thru the neighborhood until he's too tired and drops. MB
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I need to stop talking to others about my situation at all. It just makes me doubt myself & I take on others’ beliefs about what has happened—his view in fact: he fell in love with someone else. This makes me the victim & I refuse to play this role.
Family & friends want you to stop hurting & the only way they know is to divorce & move on. I am the only one who really knows my h & realises how weird all this really is. I trust my instincts but I am vulnerable to suggestions from others. I will keep my own counsel from now on, except for people here! :)
Mamma Bear said on someone's post:
Just open the kitchen door and let the rabid MLCer junkyard dog run wild thru the neighborhood until he's too tired and drops. MB
Hi Calamity you are absolutely right, and i love mamma bears post .... just wonder how long i can keep the kitchen door open? xx
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Hi Calamity you are absolutely right, and i love mamma bears post .... just wonder how long i can keep the kitchen door open? xx
Assuming that your spouse isn't a drain on your finances (you can make ends meet),
and that your spouse isn't a danger to you or any children you may have, whether the danger is physical or emotional,
why can't you Stand forever, or at least until they are through their crisis?
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Hi Calamity you are absolutely right, and i love mamma bears post .... just wonder how long i can keep the kitchen door open? xx
Assuming that your spouse isn't a drain on your finances (you can make ends meet),
and that your spouse isn't a danger to you or any children you may have, whether the danger is physical or emotional,
why can't you Stand forever, or at least until they are through their crisis?
My H is frighteningly irresponsible with mOney and so with my kids financial security in mind I will have to go to mediation and reach some sort of financial settlement. I'm scared of this but cannot take the weekly threats to take the car and give him half our savings. So although I would love to drag it out longer as he is saying I need to protect myself and my kids from total financial mess.
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After all this time (and I know - in comparison with others here - my time has been short) - I no longer think about it in terms of a return. I trust the process. I accept that my H will move through the tunnel (or not) at his own pace. I accept that I cannot control or fix it. I believe that he will continue escape and avoid - until it no longer "works" for him - and, hopefully, he will come to a point where he will address his issues. I hope, for him, he reaches that point. I accept that it has little to do with me....and I cannot fix or control it.
Definitely what we all need to remind ourselves of!! This breakdown was AWESOME because like you said, this is really where all of us are. Thank you for taking the time to do that Limitless. Since BD, I have thought he would come back...maybe because of my faith in him, maybe because of what he said or did during BD...but I thought he would come back eventually. I did think it would be by now. But, then I found this site...and it all makes sense (the nonsensicalness of it!). It is a process...and I can see how he NEEDS to move through it. I just sure wish there was a fast forward button (where he actually goes through it but I don't have to watch it).
I get from A LOT of people I shouldn't stand. I know I should. Sometimes I feel like I stand because I SHOULD, sometimes I feel like I stand because I don't have anything better to do (can you IMAGINE getting into a relationship right now!?! EXHAUSTING!). I go back and forth. I figure at some point what I "should" or "shouldn't" do will be made really clear to me....so I'll deal with that decision then.
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I totally agree. Most people look at me like I'm from Mars when I tell them that not only am I standing, but that I allow my MLC'r who thinks he has moved out, still come home every night and stay on the weekends. Granted we sleep in separate bedrooms, but he's around more now then when I thought we were happily married.....He is definitely a boomerang!
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My H is frighteningly irresponsible with mOney and so with my kids financial security in mind I will have to go to mediation and reach some sort of financial settlement. I'm scared of this but cannot take the weekly threats to take the car and give him half our savings. So although I would love to drag it out longer as he is saying I need to protect myself and my kids from total financial mess.
My question was hypothetical and intended for discussion.
Of course, if your husband is being irresponsible or dangerous, that can affect your choice to Stand.
If you read the new blog post (http://loveanyway.theherosspouse.com/?p=1215) from RCR, her definition of Standing is straightforward: you live as though you are married. That doesn't mean you should put yourself or your children at risk—it's not about how your spouse is choosing to live right now, it's about you. You can get divorced and continue to Stand. As RCR points out, there are people who choose to Stand for the rest of their lives, regardless or whether or not they reconcile with their spouse.
You need to make decisions that you can live with, both in terms of protecting yourself and living by your principles.
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Limitless,
Thanks for your post. You have lovingly and successfully addressed many of my fears (which is why I love this site, because of RCR and awesome people like you!). Here's another one: as a Vanisher, my ex-H has no contact with me (nor does his family, save for one step-SIL who is ever my friend). Out mutual friends have, mostly, dropped him. He cannot "see my changes." I don't think he even thinks about any changes I may have made, my life, what I am doing, etc. I think he thinks he has found happiness with OW. He has no interest in me at all. I don't know if the time will come when he might start to feel an interest. We conducted our entire D through lawyers. He never spoke to me about getting divorced. In fact, he shows absolutely no hint of ANY interest in me. He is no clinging boomerang to be sure. I couldn't imagine him leaving me, but I can't imagine him coming back. I am not ready for another R. I know ex-H is still in replay. I'm not sure how I feel about him. I go from loving him, to hating him, to feeling sorry for him in 5 mins span. I just have a really hard time letting go of the hurt and pain. But you have given me some comfort that this is all normal...
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BirdSoul, it is normal for us, especially in the earlier years, to oscillate between love, detest and feeling sorry for our spouse. Your BD was less than two years ago. By MLC standards that very little time. Your husband may need a few more years to, again, have an active interest in you.
Mine passed from clinger to vanisher but, at times, we do talk. I mean, I call him, because of bureaucratic of legal issues. Don’t know how someone who is a vanisher from the beginning and who is already divorced will act further down the road but most MLCers end up waking up, regretting their actions, and trying to get in touch with the spouse/former spouse.
You don’t need to be ready for another relationship. Give yourself plenty of time, latitude, allow yourself to have ups and downs. MLC is a long, tough ride and we all cycle, get angry, get impatient. It is normal.
Hugs, A
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Thanks Anne J,
Here's an interesting tidbit. When I tried calling H after he left, he either hung up on me or refused to take the call (would not answer the phone). At least your H will take a call from you.
Mine has truly, utterly, completely deleted me from his life.
Hugs back to you,
Bird
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RCR just posted this blog post
http://loveanyway.theherosspouse.com/?p=1632
she linked this thread, so I am bringing it out of the archives and starting the discussion.
Great Blog RCR.
My comment is as follows.
MWD and others all use the 5 year point as a milestone.
That if couples would move forward 5 years from their marital problems, that they would see improvement.
She must say this for a reason.
Of course we could discuss whether that is 5 years from BD or Divorce.
Interesting that she no longer quotes the 10% rate of reconciliations any more.
I will look around when I get the chance and see if I can find a reference for it as I have heard that number also.
Anyways I enjoyed the blog.
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I agree, it's a good blog. I guess I'm in that group, very small on here, whose MLCer was much more a close contacter during the first years of the crisis, and who is now becoming more and more distant. Both literally and emotionally. In the first years of the crisis there was still emotional contact, if that is what she is calling it, but since this latest OW and him taking legal action that has become less and less. Unless monster means that there is still emotional contact ???
It's an interesting, thought-provoking blog; I know I always had that 5-year point as a milestone in my head as well, but that was probably because I know a couple in RL who were apart that long. Well, that point has been passed, and the crisis continues. I do have a life, a good one, is his?
There really is no one point for saying that it's no longer MLC, it's now a lifestyle choice.
But for me, even thought I don't consider myself a covenant-keeper, I guess I don't see a problem with standing and moving forward at the same time. I sometimes wonder if I will feel differently if and when he finalises his divorce. But then I see that I will deal with that when it happens.
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I also belong to the small group of those with a closer contacter that turned distant contacter. Mr J was a über clinger during the 7 months I've stayed on my own in the capital. After I moved he made sure he was in as much contact with me as he could (not physically, email, text, phone, even working for the same company).
My branch of the company closed, OW2 become public, he filled for his first court case. I start becoming more distant, he did not pursue. It has been nearly 7 years since BD, we still legally married, I haven't seen him in over 5 years.
Remaining legally married for so long with someone who is not part of our life will not, in my opinion, lead to a better change of reconciliation.
The way I see it, those with close contacters whose crisis last 3.5 to 4.5/5 years have better changes of reconcile, even if they are divorced. Anything past the 4.5/5 years mark start too be too much time, divorced or married. Married it may work if there is close contact.
One can stand and move forward at the same time. We all do it. None of us is where we were at BD. Some of us may wish to remarry (to someone that not our MLCer) and others may not, that is the big difference I see between LBS.
5 years and the marital problems should improve… for me not from BD. After divorced I'll let you know. ;) But I don't have marital problems. None of us does. MLC is not a marital issues. I only have one (ok, two) problems, money and be free to marry who I choose to.
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2 years post BD & I'm still not sure what my h is ;) . Was a boomerang but now?
I'm in the If you just don’t know—you’d rather reconcile, but you don’t think it’s going to happen—how about ending it and yet that does not mean the door is forever closed; it just means that your ex joins the pool of all those other people you may date in the future, but you are not counting on it or committing your life to it.
group.
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I'M not to sure about why I'm standing anymore either. As you may have read, the OW sent me text back in January with all of the details of their affair, the hows, whens, ect. It hurt really bad to hear everything that I had already assumed was going on but she finalized it all. The one thing was obvious was the man that she spoke of was not the man that I've loved for the past 26 years. The drinking, hotels, spending money was not my husband. It was a man running from whatever caused his midlife which I now know was the stress and humiliation that he was going through on his job in addition to losing his closest friend and police buddy. I prayed to God that my husband would see that alcoholic bipolar woman for what she was and finally come back home but still that didnt happen and although they had a vicious fight because he wouldnt totally commit to her she did what he couldnt do and told me everything. Three weeks later my husband was back with this woman and I was devastated all over again. Little did I know that he was trying to end their four year relationship (two of the four years I never suspected or even knew about) but was having a hard time letting go. MY HUSBAND took this woman on vacations out of the country, restaurants and bars and hotels on Friday nights all over Philadelphia, New Jersey and Delaware hiding from me, and anyone who knew him so I assume they had a fabulous life together before they went on their last vacation and had a really big fight in the Turks and Caicos islands when she hid his passport and just an all out bawl because she felt if he could go away out of the country and lie to me she felt that he should stop lieing to me and finally tell me the truth and let me go. He asked for more time and so she broke up with him. My husband came home from his boat trip so I thought and was really weird. Four days later he moved out. I found out he rented an apartment and began seeing her again. That was Sept 2012. I received her detailed text in Jan 2013. This woman has since broken my windshield of my car, they must have had a fight he surprised me and came home for the new year and she drove past our home and broke the windshield to my 2 month old new car. I suspected that they were having problems because he started coming over on the weekends until I began to notice that he only came around when she reveled something to me and after about two or three weeks of handing around the house on Saturdays i suspected he was seeing her again and he denied it. TWO days later he told me that he wasnt feeling it and left again. About two months ago they must have had another fight and she sent me pictures of my husbands private parts that he sent her in April of this year along with a picture of HER PRIVATE PART WITH THE WORDS THIS IS WHAT HE LEFT YOU FOR. I immediately called my husband and told him and sent him the pictures he couldnt believe it. I told him if we never get back together he needs to get rid of that crazy bit#*. I havent heard anything from either one of them until about a week ago my husband called to find out how I was doing and for once throughout all that I have been through he lfinally gave me an heartfelt apology in addition to telling me he needed space and wasnt seeing her any longer AND he loved me but wasnt in love with me any more. THEN he asked me out to dinner and a movie and I declined. This man is not my husband any longer. I dont hear from him at all. Someone tell me why am I still standing???? Throughout all of this??? My answer is somewhere in all of HIS midlife crises I failed myself. I am a wonderful friendly and so everyone says I cant believe your husband is doing this to you, you are a beautiful woman. I'm sure all of you are just as beautiful and have heard the same words but I have had enough of this circus and my END is near.
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Oh my!!!! That is horrendous... She is crazy, I am so sorry that you are having that to deal with! I have no other words, really, I am shocked.
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Interesting that she no longer quotes the 10% rate of reconciliations any more.
Honestly, I believe the reconcilitation has more to do with the LBS than the MLC'er. I don't personally know a single person who has gone through what I am going through and still choosing to stand. "Most" people that are just plain cheated on walk away and don't look back. IMO at least. I believe it takes a much bigger person to stand, to forgive, and to want to make the marriage work. Some people have asked me if I'm afraid of looking "weak" if I take him back. My response is HELL NO!!!! Do you have any idea how strong you have to be to the light at the end of the tunnel. To understand HIS issues when you are trying to deal with your own?!
The LBS is the strong one! No ifs ands or buts about it!
Now, I'm also not saying that anyone is weak if they choose to end it. That is equally as hard. I just refuse to let anyone believe that taking back a ws is a sign of weakness.
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Honestly, I believe the reconcilitation has more to do with the LBS than the MLC'er.
It does. Most people don't stand. Most people divorce a normal (non MLC) cheater at once. I think it is up to each person to do what is better for them.
Bottom line, very few marriages survive a MLC, LBS standing or not. If the LBS stands, in most cases the stand ends up being for ourselves. A LBS that has stand may be more balanced than one who has not but stading does not equal having the marriage back.
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Standing certainly not the easiest thing in the world.I stand not base on my spouse action but because standing is for me and I stand for my children when they are too young to stand. Almost everyone – family, friends, society, even my own ego and sense of dignity – seems to be against this.However, I choose to stand because I loved the man and I meant my vows and I stand by the Word of God.
Does it hurt? Of course, we all know that. Pain is our constant companion..even when we are "happy and healthy", its there. . Not only do I have to deal with my own pain, but also my kids’.Just thinking about it makes me want to howl at the injustice of it all.
I have to fight myself every day from just giving in and “freeing” myself from this untenable situation. Surely it would be easier to just move on with my life.However, I’m not leaving it like that.
To be honest, I don’t even want him back in the state he’s in now. I deserve a man who loves me and who keeps his word. Were he to come back now it would only be a matter of time before he’s back to his old ways again, and who wants that?
I stand because I choose to believe God. He alone can restore my marriage. I am wholly prepared to do WHATEVER He tells me to. I don’t even ask anymore if standing for my marriage is His will. How can it not be!It therefore, stands to reason that He will do what is necessary to save and completely transform my marriage. He’ll make it even better than the best of before. I wholeheartedly believe that!
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I believe this is good insight. I've discussed this previously with other LBS and my friend.
Regardless of the general rate, it makes sense that it would be higher for Standers who are Paving the Way with the Unconditionals.
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My H and I D for financial reasons last March. There were only two reasons I did the D. One was we needed to get his retirement money to pay off major debt and the other was because HE said we could always remarry.
I did not want a D. I believe after all the crap we had been through for many years, I would stay married no matter what. I believed marriages all go through rough patches and we would get through everything.
So, he and I are D.I stand because I still love the man I had been with since I was a teen. He broke. He fell apart. I had been in that situation at one point myself. I didn't leave home though. I didn't take off.
He was a vanisher at first. He would not speak to me and I truly believed I was at fault for everything. I would text and get nothing. I would call and get nothing. I didn't see him for about 6 weeks. He then started coming around at xmas til St.Patty's then took off again.
He started coming around again. He comes here once or twice a week. I am blocked from FB and his phone. There is NC until he comes here.
Maybe standing is just so I can adjust to him no longer being in my life as a H. I don't know if I will want him back, if that's what he wants. I know there will be no texting or FB if he comes home. Twitter and all other media will be gone. I'm done being second best. I'm done being his doormat. I count as much as he does.
He will NOT be coming home unless he gets some kind of help and will not be sweeping this under the rug. There are changes he will need to make. At this time I have not found another woman like most of you on here. I believe there was an infatuation with someone younger. He had also contacted his ex GF (FB) from before me when he was like 15 or 16. The woman has been a thorn in my side from day one.
So today I am still standing. Who knows what tomorrow will bring. I take it one day at a time.
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I believe this is good insight. I've discussed this previously with other LBS and my friend.
Regardless of the general rate, it makes sense that it would be higher for Standers who are Paving the Way with the Unconditionals.
I still think it has more to do with how long the MLCer crisis will take and the LBS individual situation. I can apply all the Unconditionals I want it will not lead to a reconciled marriage.
Most here have not been married to an MLCer for more than 5 years so you don't know how that is. But I know how much a LBS changes in nearly 7 years. The changes become so big that a point will come when the MLCer is nothing but a fading memory (I'm taking about an MLCer that is not present in our life).
RCR wrote it herself: "We say that the old marriage is dead at Bomb Drop and a new marriage must be built, but that new marriage is still founded on the foundation of what was built previously. Chuck and I were together throughout his MLC even though he was in and out 8 times. Sure, our relationship has matured and become stronger, but it was not completely destroyed through his MLC. This may be different for Distant Contacters. The old marriage is gone in part because contact drops off almost completely. A couple may reunite many years later after having built new lives without each other. I built a different life, but Chuck was always in it and I was in his; there was no building of our lives without each other."
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I still think it has more to do with how long the MLCer crisis will take and the LBS individual situation.
I'm not sure what you mean by "the LBS individual situation".
I can apply all the Unconditionals I want it will not lead to a reconciled marriage.
I guess I'd say not applying them could easily lead to a non-reconciled marriage. I'd be the first to say some of my views are influenced by my friend's situation. I watched how he paved the way and applied the unconditionals.
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It means that if you’re divorced and your financial situation is sorted out = the LBS is in no financial dire straits because of the MLC; or you’re married but you’re also ok financial wise, it is very different than remain married to the MLCer for years on end with financial troubles.
At least for me it makes a big, big difference. I may be more inclined to reconcile had I been divorce, or married with good financial situation, than the way things turned out. Would say that, normally, a person will not have much wish of reconcile with someone that ruined the finances. Let alone with someone that does not allow us to divorce even if we want to. That is hardly a promising future…
Yes, not applying the Unconditionals can lead to a non-reconciled marriage. But apllying them will not lead to a reconciled marriage. I’m glad things worked for your friend and his wife but I think most marriages never reconcile. Eeven if the Unconditionals are applied.
I believe in the process but I also think a point comes when the LBS moves on and no more chances. If anything I’ve left the door open for too long. A thing I regret.
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Does it hurt? Of course, we all know that. Pain is our constant companion..even when we are "happy and healthy", its there. . Not only do I have to deal with my own pain, but also my kid's.Just thinking about it makes me want to howl at the injustice of it all.
Couldn't have said it better myself!!!!
I still think it has more to do with how long the MLCer crisis will take and the LBS individual situation. I can apply all the Unconditionals I want it will not lead to a reconciled marriage.
Most definitely. We have no control in their actions! However, there is no chance in a reconciliation if we closed that door at BD. I feel way too many people (mlc or not) simply end a marriage because that has become the norm. It was too acceptable to divorce. Marriage is supposed to be forever.
I believe MLC has been here forever but divorce was not a solution. They stuck it out! Divorce is now taken as soon as things get a little bumpy. I think divorce laws need to become stricter in order to force people to face their problems and not just run from them.
How many of us have heard "everyone gets divorce!" Or "don't act like we are the only ones getting divorced"! I truly think that if divorce became taboo MLC would take on a whole new light!
Just my opinion
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Would say that, normally, a person will not have much wish of reconcile with someone that ruined the finances.
This could well be true. I don't know as it hasn't been something I've experienced from my MLCer, nor did my friend.
I’m glad things worked for your friend and his wife but I think most marriages never reconcile.
I'm glad for them too and hope things keep moving along
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If divorce becomes taboo most LBS would be like me, legally married but with no spouse or marriage for years on end. The MLC would still happen, the MLCer would still live with OW/OM and the LBS would have no way out, even if they need to (for finances or other reason)
It is not so simple to divorce here (Portugal) unless it is an amicable divorce. Our courts are very slow and, since late 2008, we have a weird divorce law. It not totally no fault but it is also not fault.
Mr J filled for his second court divorce (1st was closed because he had no grounds for it) on early 2011. So far there was not a single hearing on this second court case.
Yes, if we closed the door on BD there would be less reconciliation. Or maybe not. Maybe some MLCers really need the door to be closed to move through the crisis. And the faster they move through the crisis the bigger the chances of reconciliation.
True, divorce is now taken for every little bump in the road but MLC is a more than a little bump in the road. And, in the end, most of us will be divorce. Because we have to do for the finances, because too many years went by, because we meet someone else.
Divorce can, in my opinion, in some situations, provide a better chance for reconciliation.
If I could go back I would had divorce right after OW1 was made public. No idea if it would bring a reconciliation or not but current situation will not and remaining married was a loss (in many ways) to be. Of course I'm saying this in hindsight. Things were not so simple at the time. Emotions were raw, everything was confusing. But that long, long ago.
DGU, I know you and your friend did not experienced financial loss with your MLCer. For me it makes it very different. Also, if you or your friend would choose to/wanted to remarry, you could. You had that choice. I don't. It does make a difference.
And before you tell me that anger does not do, I'm not angry at Mr J. Not even with myself. But I was a bit silly in not divorce rather quick.
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The question about the finances really is interesting; until very recently finances were OK for me, and I do agree that that makes a difference, but I can't yet say exactly what kind. It's only now that that is starting to change, so I don't know yet.
The big advantage for me, oddly enough, is that it IS years down the line, and I can look at things like that much more dispassionately. I can also 'fight' for what I need in a much more detached way, which I think is a plus. While it's not fun seeing his bank statements and what he spends his money on, it also does show me that it's about him, not about 'us', nor is he necessarily trying to destroy me 'on purpose' -- he's not really thinking about me or the children at all. He's very much still in "poor me" mode. And his financial management skills are definitely one thing which have disappeared during this crisis.
It's something to do with thinking that counting the pennies is somehow bad, that he "deserves" not to have to do that, it's to do with wanting to be a big shot and having the things that a big shot has, it's to do with wanting to be a big shot in OWs eyes, it's all to cover how he really feels about himself. That much he has admitted in conversations over the years, in those "moments of clarity" that we sometimes see.
This is, I think, why my MLCer has discarded one OW after another, in that search for the lifestyle that he thinks he 'deserves'. It's not about any OW as a person, either.
And yes, I do think it is true that the longer this goes on the lower the chances for reconciliation, but I do also think that that is down to the LBS, because you just get so bleeping tired of it all. I'm slowly letting go of all the other things, such as my r with his sister, my kids r with their cousins has changed, which they are sad about (SIL has decided to 'get used to' this OW, she has no idea about what he was doing before her, and doesn't want to know; cousins don't care, it's not their dad); now that MIL has passed on there is less reason for me to be involved.
The vanishing act is recent -- looking back, it's been happening over the last 6 months. I get that this may be normal at the 2 or 2.5 year mark, which is where my H is with this OW. None of the others have lasted this long. In a way, I think he's started his crisis over and over over the years, and is only now actually going through it.
As ever, I only find out about what he has been doing long after the fact, and going back, there really is a correlation between what is going on with an OW and his contact with me and/or the children. Just before this latest OW I saw that he had some clarity with regards to our children and about things in general, then he ran again. And even last summer I saw that the man I knew and loved was in there somewhere, but then the door slammed down, and yes, I later learned what precipitated that. I do get that he is afraid of the emotional connection.
I also get that monster means that he isn't happy, despite his protestations.
Through it all I really am better, I was probably more of a mess than most here for the first years, before this forum started. The children and I do talk about it, and we are strong as a unit.
Oh, dear, written a novel. Thanks for reading.
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I stand because I choose to believe God. He alone can restore my marriage. I am wholly prepared to do WHATEVER He tells me to. I don’t even ask anymore if standing for my marriage is His will. How can it not be!It therefore, stands to reason that He will do what is necessary to save and completely transform my marriage. He’ll make it even better than the best of before. I wholeheartedly believe that!
I couldn't have said this better myself. It is how I am standing too....
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I’ve been on the receiving end of the financial issues for ages. At first it was not that bad. I had the flat, freelance work, than moved here and had a job, then had some more freelance work. At a point it stopped. And the money I was making was not enough to live on my own.
One does not feel exactly thrilled to be going through financial hardships when our beloved MLCer is living in luxury and has more than enough money to fulfil their duty (yes, yes, I know duty/responsibility, MLCers don't like it. But they don't seem to have a problem with paying for everything for OW/OM…)
The big advantage for me, oddly enough, is that it IS years down the line, and I can look at things like that much more dispassionately. I can also 'fight' for what I need in a much more detached way, which I think is a plus. While it's not fun seeing his bank statements and what he spends his money on, it also does show me that it's about him, not about 'us', nor is he necessarily trying to destroy me 'on purpose' -- he's not really thinking about me or the children at all. He's very much still in "poor me" mode. And his financial management skills are definitely one thing which have disappeared during this crisis.
Agree with being much easy to look at things dispassionately. I think mine is trying to destroy me (this me being because I'm the wife, if I was person Z or Y it would be the same thing) on purpose. Not only because of the money but because of his court cases. He is hoping I have to give up, allowing him to walk with all the assets and not having to give back the money. Mine is totally absurd with his money. He will spend like there is no tomorrow in expensive silly things but makes a scene because of the price of the tube (subway) ticked price.
Mr J has become cheap in a number of things while, at the same time, he just spends, spends, spends. Lets says currently he is not someone I would like to live with.
You're probably right, Trustandlove, they just want to impress OW, so they spend, spend, spend. But what OW would want a man that spends tons in useless stuff and screams against the price of necessary things?...
No, it is not about any OW as a person, just a search for some fantasy lifestyle. Each OW must fit the MLCer current state of fantasy and/or depression.
It is always down to the LBS. Longer or short crisis it will always be down to the LBS.
Interesting that you say you think your husband has started his crisis over and over and over and only now is going through it.
I had a very brief glimpse of the man I knew early last year. It was a minor thing, something, a document, I need, that the account though had given to SIL (it was an old document) but he promptly went look for it, talked to SIL and text me as soon as he had the her answer. It was not an emotional thing, don't think I've seen any emotional thing… or maybe I have. When he called back (it was a talk about legal and financial issues) or texted Happy Birthday and Merry Christmas with the * in the end of the short text (the * apparently means love/kisses). Those texts were 2011. No need to say he has went back to his very busy High Replay schedule.
Monster means they are still angry and unhappy. They can have a gigantic sign saying “I Am Happy” but they are not. Their actions and monster tell us they are not.
We could all write several novels…
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Interesting that she no longer quotes the 10% rate of reconciliations any more.
Honestly, I believe the reconciliation has more to do with the LBS than the MLC'er.
It is very important that we all understand that the fabled 10% figure Michele Weiner-Davis was talking about was not about MLC situations but ALL divorces and the rate of remarrying an ex-spouse. This is the sort of thing we need to be careful about. Someone may read pieces of this thread and come away with the idea that it is 10% of MLC marriages that end in divorce that may reconcile or that we are saying that the 10% figure is valid because they don't read the post where it's emphasized that the data is unsourced and the original source is unknown and maybe the figure is made up.
I believe this is good insight. I've discussed this previously with other LBS and my friend.
Regardless of the general rate, it makes sense that it would be higher for Standers who are Paving the Way with the Unconditionals.
I still think it has more to do with how long the MLCer crisis will take and the LBS individual situation. I can apply all the Unconditionals I want it will not lead to a reconciled marriage.
And there is no conflict between those two ideas. I did not say that you will reconcile if you apply the Unconditionals, but rather that they increase the odds--logic says that the reconciliation rate will be higher when the Unconditionals (honey instead of vinegar) are applied.
That does not change the idea that the final decision is more often the LBSs, but that applies to MLC and not the 10% figure discussed above which is a different topic since it's about ALL divorced and then remarried-to-each-other couples. The reunited divorced couples could have divorced mutually or for so many different reasons that had nothing to do with what we deal with here that the dynamics of the situations are not really comparable to our own.
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Yes, the Unconditionals increase the odds. If the LBS is inclined to reconcile. No LBS inclined to reconcile, no reconciled marriage. And, yes, the LBS having the final word is for MLC situations. A normal, mutual agreement divorce is not the same we deal with.
Would you say the chances for reconciliation post divorce are higher or lower for MLC divorces?
I don't know if most divorces have to do with MLC…(would say no, maybe most, or many midlife ones have to do with MLC, but not all, or even most, have to do with MLC. Also, because some divorces in MLC it does not always have to be because of a MLC.