[OffRoad]

You are confusing me also MBIB. First you say an MLCer doesn't know what they are doing and that DID and mlc are the same. Then you post that a person with DID knows what they are doing and doesn't always have amnesia. Which is it, does the mlcer know what they are doing or not? Is MLC really DID or something else? Does a person get to do whatever they want/are compelled to do with no outside consequences? For the person having the issue/mlc/what have you, it's Hell. For the person on the receiving end, it's Hell. The difference is that the person on the receiving end is still on the RECEIVING end of hatred and anger. If at some point that anger and hatred is reflected back, that is a normal part of the grieving of loss.

I do not dismiss someone else's story. It is that person's journey. I also do not embrace someone's elses DID as being what my H has gone through, although I don't discount it could be some personality anomaly. Is "The Devil made me do it. I couldn't stop it." an acceptable explanation for every single mlcer? Is that ok to teach our children, that your parent doesn't know what he/she is doing so it's ok if they do the wrong things, or verbally abuse them, or neglect them? That is for every person to decide for themselves. I can have understanding that there may be something mentally out of place with xh, but that does not mean I was going to let him tell our son he was a total loser, wasn't going to graduate high school and should never have been born. My choice to protect my child. I didn't see a point in having a second generation screwed up beyond recognition. And my XH doesn't know that my running interference ensured he could keep a relationship with his son. Tell me that wasn't compassion on my part.

I'm sorry you had/are still in crisis, MBIB. If you were not unkind to your W and family, if your W couldn't feel your thoughts that you were "stuck with her until she dies" and you never spoke an angry word to her during your crisis, good on you. That is not the reality for most people here. Most people here had their lives torn asunder with hate and anger and vitriol and cruelty. It would be hard to decide "Sure, take all the money leave the kids and I homeless and destitute, with no means of support while mlc spouse spends money on luxuries and vacations with some other person, but it's ok. Mlc spouse is having a crisis and can't control him/herself". The average person would never consider such a thing acceptable at all.

[Trustandlove]

I may be missing something here, but I fail to see where understanding what might be happening with an MLCer is excusing them or saying it's OK. 

None of us think that what they did/are doing is OK, from what I can see. 

And I don't see how describing the "fog" is blaming the "fog", or how it somehow gives them a free pass. 

I can have understanding that there may be something mentally out of place with xh, but that does not mean I was going to let him tell our son he was a total loser, wasn't going to graduate high school and should never have been born.

Of course you wouldn't let him tell your son that.  And of course you wouldn't tell your son that it was OK for him to say that because he was in crisis. 

Again, I am not the best writer here, others might be able to put this better. 

It's not OK, just as whatever an addict does to feed his addiction isn't OK. 

And standing doesn't mean that we think it's OK, at least not how I understand standing. 

And I don't think anybody is saying that their behaviour is acceptable, that leaving us destitute while going out spending is acceptable.  Nobody, at least as far as I can see, is saying that it's OK because they are in crisis. 

Am I completely missing the point?

[stayed]

MLC'ers know!  They know what they are doing.  They know it is wrong.  They even know, they will PROBABLY regret it.  Many of these MLC'ers always played by the rules.  Never stepped out of line.  Worked hard at school.  Did what they were told by parents, preachers, teachers, bosses!  They want to live on the wildside.... just once!

It gets away from them.  It started out being so inconsequential, sort of an experiment of being somebody other then who they had always been, then WHAM!  They've destroyed their lives and taken a whole bunch of wonderful people with them. 

Some are able to recover, return to the life they left.  Most do not.  Sad.

Good discussion.  Hugs Stayed

[Acorn]

MLC'ers know!  They know what they are doing. 

Yes. My H said so. 

They know it is wrong. 

Yes.  My H said so. 

They even know, they will PROBABLY regret it. 

Not just ‘PROBABLY’, but he knew with certainty.  He told me so.

I had suggested to H at one point that his crisis was making him do all those out of character things.  He bristled and said, ‘I’m not insane. I know what I’ve done’

My understanding of this thread is that the topic has less to do with debating MLCer’s responsibility or the lack there of, but why LBS thinks this way or that.   That is part of our journey to understand ourselves better, heal and grow, IMHO.

If we are making excuses for MLCer’s choices, why? 
If we are blaming non-prosecutable things such as the fog/alien/monster, why?
If we are blaming MLCer with intense resentment and anger, and no compassion and understanding (it is a monumental crisis), why? 

I’m not saying the topic is irrelevant.  I’m suggesting that the focus may need to swing to LBS?

[nah]

Those are great questions Acorn.

We spend so much time focusing on the MLC stages (which is perfectly normal to do in the early years) that we forget that LBSers also have stages, and like the MLCers, we can get stuck in those stages, or even cycle back and forth between them (I know I cycled back and forth for a long time)

Is it possible that some of us desperately cling to “it’s not their choice”, as part of their denial stage?
Some cling to anger (nothing wrong with anger, it’s a normal and useful emotion, just too much for too long, will eat at you).
IMO, I think it’s even unhealthy to jump to forgiveness too early. I think many of us say the words bc we just can’t cope with what we are really feeling (I did this too, and then cycled back)

Also, just bc I ask questions about accountability/responsibility/choices doesn’t mean I’m angry, I’m not sure how their choice vs non-choice related to a left spouse holding onto anger. I can say, “hey, the man I used to be married to left bc he made some F’d up choices” and leave it at that.
No anger, just facts. 

[stayed]

My understanding of this thread is that the topic has less to do with debating MLCer’s responsibility or the lack there of, but why LBS thinks this way or that.   That is part of our journey to understand ourselves better, heal and grow, IMHO.

If we are making excuses for MLCer’s choices, why? 
If we are blaming non-prosecutable things such as the fog/alien/monster, why?
If we are blaming MLCer with intense resentment and anger, and no compassion and understanding (it is a monumental crisis), why? 

I’m not saying the topic is irrelevant.  I’m suggesting that the focus may need to swing to LBS?

Yes Acorn, this is what I love to see.  Bring this back to where it belongs, the LBS.  These are good questions.  Nah responses are good starting points, all of her suggestions I could totally relate to and also, experienced when in the midst of this nightmare.  I think in many ways it is the way we PROTECT ourselves.  Finding excuses for why we are ALLOWING our loved spouse to treat us in this way, we are not BATTERED spouses, we were in loving relationships..... how, why is he/she treating us this way now and more importantly, why/how are we allowing them to do so.  For me, allowing my h's crisis to effect me the way it and by reacting so passively and pathetically, it truly destroyed my self confidence.  To put it frankly, I felt ABUSED... battered.... beat down, had absolutely no idea how to deal with it.   At least ANGER alleviates the feeling of abuse/battered/helplessness.   That is why I searched for a forum of people in the same situation.

Wishing a crisis "pox" upon all of us who have NEVER had one, is just plain cruel and totally uncalled for.  I don't think you could find a more compassionate group then the fine people this forum attracts.  Questioning STUFF is not criticism, be it about ourselves, our spouses or even others.  Trying to protect ourselves from falling into "victim" mode is a constant struggle, experienced by us all.

I am looking forward to hearing responses to Acorns questions..... we can't do anything about our MLC's, we all know this.  So, why do we spend so much time wondering, trying to figure out why they went where they did.  Shocked Sis had a very viable answer, she said it was like having a nervous breakdown without going completely over the edge.  Let's go with that and figure out why it is so important to us to find a reason that somebody we loved so much has betrayed us so terribly.  Let's try and figure that out.

Good response Nah.... thanks..

Hugs Stayed

. 

[Father5]

I did get angry ! Beyond angry , I broke a chair ,punched holes in the wall. I called her horrible names. Then I felt awful for that! Why? She had no compassion for me . Treated me like something smelly on the bottom of her shoe.

 I guess I feel in someway now I am owed an explanation of why I was treated so terribly. The lack of empathy and feeling for how I felt was the worst part of it.

 I know why I felt that way. Fear of abandonment and some PTSD. It took me a year and a lot of reading and counseling to come to that conclusion.

  I need her to feel again even if we never get back together . I am still the father of her children. The fact I can't get an apology or hey I f'd up I am sorry is really what gets me angry now.

 She is still trying to screw me over. She's a millionaire and doesn't ever have to worry about money yet still wants half of mine. WTF did I do to deserve this !!!!!!

 Now I have to ask myself why I still love her? Why would I still love her and where did my cute never argumentative Down to Earth wife go. Where did the girl go who wouldn't hurt a fly???

 

[lawprofessor]

Yes, the intent of the post had to do with focusing on the LBS. 

I'd agree with Nah that some people certainly cling to the denial stage with finding excuses and explanations for the MLCer. 

As well there is the ever present group of people who take great offense or express great discomfort with anyone who is in the anger stage or just situationally angry.  It really used to make me furious when one if them would state with dismissive words, well you know lp is angry.  If I wasn't before, now I am.

You bet I was angry.  I made that little comment by whyus look like a love note.  Whyus, you weren't around when I was in the anger stage.  My husband beat me and broke bones in my face.  A few days after I got out of the hospital he came back for a second round except I was angry.  I snatched up a piece of a 2 x 4 and chased him down the street walloping him with it dressed in high heels and with my neighbors watching a lawyer and a doctor providing a floor show with me yelling you will not hit me, a whack for each word over and over.

Now I wouldn't recommend that approach to anyone but I understand anger.  And he never beat me again.

The site pushes so hard for the posters to focus on forgiveness rather than helping people navigate the stages of the LBS because the focus is too much on the MLCer.  That's partially because it's easier and less potentially explosive for conflict avoidant people to navigate in my opinion.  Yet that is so detrimental to the LBS to try to skip steps because that stage will just pop up later and worse. 

Asking hard questions, being blunt or concise, that's not necessarily anger yet many here are quick to call it that.  If a MLCer comes here they should expect tough questions and easy questions.  Yes they come here freely in presumably a spirit of helping but that doesn't mean they should be treated by some as having the key to the universe.  And at the same time that doesn't mean to treat them disrespectfully.  The ones that are angry are often the ones that COULD benefit the most from their words.  As a side note it's interesting that so many LBS'S have trouble making distinctions between types of emotions and identifying emotions even when describing how they feel at a given moment. 

I can't tell you how many times I've had to remind certain people that anger can be not just a normal stage but useful when channeled.  Anger is a stage not a place to stop and live.  People go through it at their own pace.  One poster here told me she was never angry with her ex just hurt.  Months later she cycled back and picked up that stage and learned to embrace it.  She called after having a bad day.  Everything that went wrong was ex's fault somehow.  She then had a dream about running him over while driving a little red convertible. Now we laugh when she has a bad day and I ask her, so how is the ex's fault? 

Forgiveness isn't the goal I think should be pushed on the forum.  Acceptance comes in time if we work towards it.  Within acceptance we may find a degree of forgiveness.  But there are no shortcuts. 

Wishing a pox on posters?  Sounds a lot like MLC spew I got when I didn't agree with him and gush accolades for his uniqueness and brilliance.  Water off a ducks back. 

Whyus, you rock for speaking your truths and not letting the discussion be reframed and twisted into a pretzel you never intended.  Nah, as always your mind is the most beautiful part of you, and according to the male population that's saying a lot.  Stayed, it's been too long since I've seen you here but I know you're busy with that handsome long legged Canadian who can't keep his hands off you. 

As always just my opinions and thoughts.  As Off Road says, your mileage may vary.

Lp

[OneHotMess]

I spent 2 years of my life trying to justify for my ex. And then my own crisis started flashing back in my head. I hate that I pushed everyone away for a year. I blamed myself for the ex jumping ship and going to his cousin. Now, I don’t anymore. In my crisis, I did nothing to cause my family to go from 1 to 2 families. I know he knows what he is doing because he gives our friends a play by play as he is doing it. But what I know in my crisis, is that I wasn’t me. It makes me cry when something comes back to me in that time period. Does it excuse me? Not at all and nothing excuse my ex from doing the horrible things he has done. The last thing I want my kids to see, is that you can rip everyone’s life to pieces and have no consequences.

Do I want him to hang for it? No.i still love my husband and  want him to work through this to  get his life back in order for my kids. I’m not saying that I have enough in me to take him back. That is a door that will forever be closed. I have found in my particular situation, that hating him or trying to figure out what he is thinking was sucking the life out of me. I had to turn my back and leave him be. I am the one that is as no contact as I can be with him. We email maybe once or twice a month about something the kids are doing and that is because I have to for the courts. This time really is for me and my kids.

It is helpful  to read how the mlcers come back and reflect on these years.thank you to all of you that share your stories.  In the end, does it really matter what they did or didn’t not know they were doing? They did it and it is over. One thing I told my ex in the beginning is that you can not change the past so don’t even bring it up. It is what it is. What will they do to change the future?

[Nas]

I hate to be vindictive but I hope that each and everyone of you who is so self-righteous and quick to condemn those who have experienced this crisis end up going through the crisis yourself. It could easily happen. It isn't unusual for both partners to do so, one after the other, and the fact that you haven't had one yet, doesn't mean that you won't. After all, none of us, including our spouses, had any idea that our spouse would ever experience this crisis so how can you be so sure it won't happen to you? In fact, I think that being so quick to place blame is one sign of somebody who is likely to have a crisis. I'm looking forward to welcoming all of you self-righteous and judgmental people to our world.

Sorry but a bit hard to take anything you write seriously after this. Please think before pressing post button.

I haven't even finished reading through this entire thread yet. 

I've been blocked by multiple people on this forum.  And I consider myself to be a very logical person who tries to post my thoughts as respectfully as possible.  I've never said anything this self-righteously angry, self-absorbed and inflammatory (okay, until right now, I guess  )
Wth is happening here?

FWIW, I've never had an MLC.  But I have been in a life "crisis" for the past few years.  And cancer treatment also has me sitting here thinking how the hell is 2019 because for me, it still feels like it should be 2017, like I've lost 2 years. 
I lost time.  Or rather, time passed and I didn't even notice.  I made choices that were not wise but that I felt I "had" to make given my situation.
I had what I felt like were out of body experiences during some of my treatment time, like I was outside of myself watching myself.
I thought about suicide every day for over a year.  Every. Single. Day.
I also for a period where I was what I'd call "passively suicidal" - skipping doses of my oral chemotherapy, knowing it could harm me, but not caring and not being able to stop myself from skipping it.
At my lowest point, when I was screaming into the void, I knew what I was doing. 

Anyway, I don't want to take part in the "they know what they're doing/they're deep in a fog" debate.  I know my opinion - they know what they're doing - and I'm not looking to argue about it. 

There are a million reasons a person can disassociate.
It's a psychological defense mechanism.  Disassociating at difficult times in life is different than having a diagnosis of DID that is ongoing.
But I'm not interested in having any debate over that either. 

I just wanted to share what I shared to show that you don't have to have had an MLC to understand some of the possible feelings of an MLCer.

What I see missing a lot on this forum of late is a willingness to hear and understand others
who have different experiences than you or feel differently than you.
I see a quickness to call others judgmental, to refer to their ideas as "wrong," "simplistic," or "mean."
(As I said, I've been blocked by more than one member of this forum.  I can't find a single comment in my post history that has ever been made with the sole intent to dismiss someone or been so egregious that it warrants being blocked and labeled as someone whose contributions should be ignored.)

It seems oftentimes that sharing an opinion is being viewed as being inflammatory.
EVERY SINGLE ONE OF US is entitled to form our own opinion and express that opinion.

In my OPINION, MBIB, your reaction to the discussion and your statement that you hope we end up feeling the intense pain you feel all MLCers feel was an extreme overreaction.  And it was cruel.

Do you think I haven't experienced pain on the level you feel all MLCers are in pain?
I was financially ruined, gaslighted and then abandoned.
I was diagnosed advanced cancer and have endured 2 years of brutal treatments.
I lost both of my parents in a 3-week time span earlier this year.
I have no home and sleep in someone's basement.
I am psychologically wounded and plagued by severe anxiety due to all of the above, and sometimes feel so desperate, I become paralyzed from the sheer weight of it all.

I would never, ever in a million years wish my pain on anyone else.
Why would you?  Someone said something you disagreed with and as a response, you wished them to literally feel tortured.
Maybe that needs some examining.