[xyzcf]

 

I am dismayed by the effects standing seems to have on the children.

I disagree 100% with this "statement".

The breakup of the family is what is devastating to our children, not the fact that a parent is standing.

There is no proof for this statement at all.

I know many standers whose children are doing very well...maybe because their LBS parent isn't running off on dates and bringing "new fathers/mothers" into their lives.

It is not right for you to continue to say this about the children of standers.

[lawprofessor]

XYZCF, once again.  I'm not having a thread war with you.  It's my business what dismays me.  I don't have to justify my opinions to you.  You can disagree all you want but it's not up to you to determine if my thoughts are right or wrong.

Second I said seems.  I'm not asserting fact although if you want independent more science based proof refer to the post by Nerissa.

Third, I believe the actions of parents impact children. It's the LBS who has to make a safe environment for the child.  Thundarr said it himself.  He wishes he'd have had his focus on the children more squarely rather than focusing on standing.  That's a fact. 

Fourth with you when you have nothing else to say you revert to unnamed legions to support your argument.  Unnamed numbers who have reconciled.  Unnamed numbers who's children are fine.  Where's your proof of these unnamed people?  I can only have feelings as related to posts I read on this forum. 

Now I'm done with you and these daily complaints.  You gripe at no one but me yet other posters have said much more.  Why is that?  The holiday weekend will be over soon and I'll be too busy having a life to post and you can safely go back to the status quo on here you enjoy.  But for one weekend the Emporer Has No Clothes and these people have had a chance to express themselves. 

Lp

[Nerissa]

I am dismayed by the effects standing seems to have on the children.

I disagree 100% with this "statement".

The breakup of the family is what is devastating to our children, not the fact that a parent is standing.

There is no proof for this statement at all.

I know many standers whose children are doing very well...maybe because their LBS parent isn't running off on dates and bringing "new fathers/mothers" into their lives.

It is not right for you to continue to say this about the children of standers.

Of
Course it is the breaking of the family that damages.   But you are a mother and a nurse,. When  we read some of the stories where the mlc spouse is taking up so much of the loyal parents emotional and often financial resources, we have to admit that a lot of the time, healing would be over quicker if we did not stand.

Add to that the psychological evidence of the effects of ambiguous/ incomplete
Mourning of the child whose parents might or might not reconcile.... I think we have to recognise that standing is not ultimately good for the children in most cases.  Mine certainly became concerned about my autonomy and self respect and even my younger one (a teenager). requested certainty rather than ambiguity after a while.

If detachment is achieved then maybe it’s different and the role model provided is better because it’s strong no matter the marital Status.    I’m not proud of the model I  provided for the vibrant young women who are my daughters for rather too long.

[Airmid]

I want to elaborate on LP's xH.

He lost everything.  And I mean everything.
Not just the little girl - that was icing on the cake.
He was a medical doctor, with an active military career.
He was teaching at the university.

This is what he lost in the MLC mess.
He lost his medical license - due I believe to his physical assault charges.
He lost his military position - including his pension - due to a dishonorable discharge.
He lost his money - by burning through his savings as only a MLCer can.
He lost his teaching position - because he had to follow the little girl around from university to university while she took 5-6 years to finish her PhD.

So now he is a old haggard looking burned out MLCer.
Probably still mentally off the tracks.
No money, no career, no retirement.
And as LP says - his wish to return has nothing to do with feeling love for LP -
its just he feels LP owes him a soft nest to land in.

This is not having a choice - unless you think picking up the wreck thats left and spending the rest of your life with a dysfunctional person is a choice you would like to have.

Certainly not what most people would envision as a desirable return.

Newbies pounce on the fact that LPs H wanted to return.
But as many xH's that want to return - there are dozens of LBSers who have never had their Hs or Ws express a desire to return.

Mine has never expressed this desire to return.
I can list tons of LBSers on this site - many are moderators.
Mitzpah, Old Pilot, Bailmore, Medusa, Ursa Major, Superman, Limitless.. and the list goes on.
Then I know of the many many people who were in my time frame -
Nah, MsT, Blindsided13, Antimatter, MeNow, and the list goes on.

Why do I bother to mention this?
For me - at this point in my journey - it doesn't matter anymore if my xH wants to return - I have moved on.
But I am upset when I see newbies get on this site and cling to the MLC timeline.

How many times have you seen a newbie figuring out they may be 24 months in BD - and you can read in their posts that they think it will simply be a waiting game?

They are clinging to hope - and dare I say false hope - false in the sense that they think a return is likely.
And then later - sometimes much later- years later - they express that they wish posters had told them upfront how unlikely the possibility of a return was.

Returns are possible - but they are not the norm - and so I agree with LP - that it not serving a newbie well to concentrate on the hope of a return.  Instead the focus should be on rebuilding the life of the LBSer. 

Older posters have the experience to find the "exit door" our of the hell after BD.
Instead of endless reiterations about what a MLCer does/thinks/believes would it not be better to cut short that discussion with a newbie and focus them on self-care?

Some posters like MsT got on that road pretty quickly.
She was in sheer hell with that MLCer threatening her physically and financially.
She dropped the rope quickly because she didn't have the resources to sit and be "thinky"

She was a stay at home mom with 3 young children.
She got out of the MLCers home - she retrained and got a great job in a medical office.
She did so well they promoted her several times - and then she followed her dreams and opened a yoga studio and is doing very nicely for herself.

She is healed.  And I don't think her xH is much on her mind at all.
She is one example of success - and she had a lot less resources than many on here.
Her healing had very little to do with understanding where her MLCers headspace was - it had a lot to do with personal achievements.

[xyzcf]

As you are entitled to your "opinion" I too am entitled.

There is NO evidence that standing causes more damage than not standing to our children.

Perhaps you do not understand what standing means. It is a personal decision based upon values and beliefs that we share with our children, ones that are supported by many religious groups.

As for the people I know who are standers, they don't post here because they do not feel supported in their views.

Your comments are hurtful to standers who like every other LBSer are doing what they feel is right for their families.

Your comments put blame on mothers and fathers who are faithful to their marriages, accusing standers of failing their children.

I guess we should all just go find other partners to be with so we don't damage our children according to your standards

[Anjae]

I haven't changed my mind on most MLCers coming out of crisis and of those most wanting to return, but I also haven't changed my mind on most will never reconcile.

All the married/partnered high energy real life MLCers I know, and I know a few, whose crisis is over wanted back. I don't know a single one who was taken back.

For the ones still in crisis, will see.

Yes, my husband would like to return.  However, I don't believe that has much explanatory value.  He's one

I know your husband is just one case. But it used to be said that nasty, physically violent MLCers would never dare to contact the LBS or want back. It also used to be said that a nasty divorce and/or cut contact with the MLCer would scare the MLCer and prevent them from wanting to return.

I never believe any of those things would prevent a MLCer from wanting to return. I see it more as those things leading the LBS not to want the MLCer back, which tends to be true.


MLCers are usually gone before BD. MLC does not start with BD or Replay. LBS only tend to see things when Replay is already rolling, but MCL started before. I don't think any of us could have saved the marriage. It takes two to tango. There are some "experts" that thing a marriage can be saved by just one spouse and even "teach" how to do so, but I think it is not possible.

There are no stats. And we can't even just go with those who keep posting on HS. Several former HS members are reconnecting or reconciling and no longer posting.

As far as I am concerned, love is not enough. It is when applied to children and, in my case, my grandmothers. For others, love is enough. To each, each own.


TNT used to be quite angry and hurt and in distress and is one of those LBS who jumped into a new relatiomship pretty much straight away without proper time of alone personal healing. I don't think he was ever fooled or deceived, he somehow thought MLC lasted a few months or so and was expecting a magic change in his wife pretty quickly and a fast return.

If there is one mantra used on HS is MCL takes time. Not, it will soon be over and your MLCer will be back in six months (that is the mantra of many sites dedicated to MLC, six months to two years, maybe three tops for the whole crisis. Right.  )

I don't know how people can complain and feel cheated. RCR has it clear in the articles, standing does not mean the MLCer will want to return, a MLCer wanting to return does not equal reconciliation and all other variables. Several of us used to be very blunt. To the point we got grief for it.

Maybe people no longer read the articles, blog posts and all the other resources on HS. Maybe when in pain or in early on LBS do not read/listen to more blunt things, then say they were not warned.

As for children, in my view, a LBS who has children first duty is to the children. Not to standing, marriage or MLCer. Also, I don't think people have to, or even should, tell the children they are standing. It is not the children's business. Who burdens children with their standing?

The children now the other parent left and is often living with someone else. They don't need the LBS to be telling them, oh mum/dad is standing and waiting for dad/mum to come out of MLC.

It is one thing to be civil to the MLCer, as it would be in any other divorce or separation situation. The LBS and MLCer who have children will have to interact. It is another to place standing on the shoulders of children.

---

Air, some MLCers lost nothing and want back. I don't think it makes a difference it they lost, or didn't lost it all. Acorn's husband didn't lost it all, far from it, RCR's  one didn't lost it all, same for several others. They are back.

There are dozens of LBS who never heard their MLCer say they wanted to return, but years ago none of us have heard LP's husband saying he wanted to return. Years ago LP was one of those LBS. There are also many who have MLCers that want to return, then they don't, then they do.

Mitzpah's husband leads a semi-life with her. Or used to. Always in the house, using the house pool, etc. and always remained close to her.

MeNow, as far I can remember, was having a MLC himself. Several of those you mentioned have long stop posting and for those you mentioned a list of people whose MCLer has expressed they wanted to return, or come and go could be made. Heck, even Mr J would "return" if I was willing to lead the crazy MLC and let him have OW if he felt like it.

Mr J didn't vanish of his own free will, I cut contact with him. If it was up to him all would be the same. The man even wanted to rent a hotel bedroom for us in 2008, he got a no. He tried that one a few times, always got a no. The thing is, he has not done any work on himself and, like LP's husband he was physically abusive. He needs special professional help that he is not ready to have.

Many MLCers would still be clinging to their LBS if allowed. That is the other things, cliging does not equal reconciliation, just like vanishing does not mean that there will not be one.

You didn't answer Air, what would you do if your MLCer knocked on your door tomorrow and said he wanted back?

The main advice is focus on yourself and the kids, if existing.

[lawprofessor]

XYZCF, refer to Nerissa's posts.  She's speaking to you reasonably and from her heart.  Yet you want to argue with me. For the last time I'm done with your attempts to turn this into a thread war and derail an interesting conversation because it doesn't reinforce your beliefs.

Again read what's written rather than making up things in your mind just so you can take up your martyr mantle of victimhood and zoomaround the triangle alone.

Of course you are entitled to your opinion.  You were the one who attacked me for my feelings rather than having a mature discussion about the topic.  That's not having an opinion.  That's having a tantrum.  And you're simply making a fool of yourself. 

No, this time you don't get to reframe the discussion to suit yourself because I never once suggested anywhere anyone go find another partner.  That's something else you're attempting to use as a strawman to shift the conversation. 

Lp

[RedStar]

How many times have you seen a newbie figuring out they may be 24 months in BD - and you can read in their posts that they think it will simply be a waiting game?

It's not about how many times people arrive here believing something like that. Of course they do, it's the nature of the beast. But then they learn from the posters here, who advise NOT holding onto those views, and to work on themselves. We are not telling them to stay as they are!

We do not promote waiting around. Anyone who has been reading this site over the past year, at least, knows that the advice is consistently to DETACH as soon as one can, work on oneself, and leave the MLCer to it.

It is up to that newbie, however, to take the advice and then implement it when they are good and ready to. We can't change them if they don't want to change (sound...familiar?).

Yes, they have that type of hope WHEN THEY GET HERE. And we understand that, because many of us have been there. But then, because of this site, they learn a lot and shift their views and attitudes. We also advise them to let go of the timelines, which are just general descriptions of the shape of a process--not promises.

This site is not at all about handing out "false hope," even if it is a fact that some MLCers return. It's not wrong to say that some do. But no matter how many do or how many do not, it has absolutely no connection with any OTHER case. No matter how many come back or not, it doesn't have any bearing on whether a particular one returns whatsoever.

[xyzcf]

I am sorry you feel that way LP

Others would disagree that “ I am making a fool of myself”.

That comment was rude and uncalled for.

[Airmid]

You didn't answer Air, what would you do if your MLCer knocked on your door tomorrow and said he wanted back?

I didn't answer because the question is a moot question.
My husband has not tried to contact me with regard to returning, nor do I expect he ever will contact me again. 
He is firmly in his life with OW - his parents and family accepted his decision to abandon his marriage within a few months after BD.

As firmly as you believe most MLCers will come out of it and want to come home -
I just as equally believe that most MLCers will not attempt a return.
There will of course be exceptions - but again - I am of the belief that majority don't try to return.

So what is the point of asking a hypothetical question about some imaginary moment when my MLCer might come knocking on the door?  I see none.  If 20 years from now - I get a knock on the door and it is my MLCer - most likely it will be because he has dementia and forgot he doesn't live here anymore!