[stayed]

B, did h just post this on twitter or something?   

I think i'd be posting... where are YOU then?

hugs Stayed

[Bewildered]

Stayed

Unfair .... like H would !!
I would be so impressed if H did post on twitter something that may show he is getting a sense of perspective hey??

B xx

[Trustandlove]

I need to have a more proper read through of all this, but I'm chiming in right now just to say that I haven't seen anything even remotely resembling what I thought Liminality to be in my H.  Now I don't know if that's because it's something we don't see, or if he's just not letting himself go there, which is what I think is more likely. 

My H seems to have gone back to the beginning in many ways, perhaps having looked into what is described as the chasm and just said "no way". 

But again, I don't know.  I know I speculated that perhaps he has come through and this is the decision he's made, but there is too much against that.....  it's another cycle, slightly different from the others but with enough, more than enough, there to show that.  Perhaps he's trying out different ways of avoiding that chasm, but that's all I can think of. 

It's been more interesting to look at my own reactions and responses; so many are so automatic that I can't always see that I'm doing "more of the same"...  often I can, just not always.  And it's hard to stop... 

But, as we know, awareness is the first step. 

More later....

x

[Trustandlove]

OK, have had a more thorough read, but might need to do so again.

First of all I'll say that I DO think this subject is very confusing, so it's worth thrashing it about to see if we can get to a bit more clarity.

B, I don't think withdrawal and Liminality are necessarily the same, but I guess one does withdraw during liminality, although they may do so at other times as well.

I think the bit that describes liminality to me is if the person is sitting there pretty much actively thinking (although probably not talking about it one bit) "oh, sh**, I might really do this, I might really do this...."  The bit in the RCR article where it talks about taking the risk of alienating peers, giving something up, all that.

I remember back in my early-year crisis having a period like that; it dawned slowly, the main bit was only a few weeks, if I remember correctly (and I may not....), but it was when the reality of my life hit me full on, and the even bigger reality that I could change it, and the even bigger yet one that I might really do it.  For me that meant leaving my "crisis" situation and returning to what was really my life. 

I've often thought about that, and wondered if it also applied to their thought process before BD -- the 'OMG, I can just leave' moment.  Don't know. 

So in a way the liminality is the anxiety period before action is taken.  And one can either get scared of all the damage that has been caused and not take action (which is how I interpret things like my H's just getting another job/activity/toy/OW), or "wake up" and go ahead and try to make amends.... 

So, as Kikki says, "Gets scared about the destruction, the feelings within him, and runs for the freedom and no responsibilities again." 

In my case I think my H has occasionally reflected on the damage, but has in no way been ready to face it, so he just looks for another external answer/fantasy life/your description here. 

To answer another one of your direct questions:

 ?  Do you think this is right the OW can still be around my H seems to not have an OW but many OW ‘friends’, which D says are not romantic as she can tell?? But they seem to need a lot of people around them their new friends my H seems to be drawn to women as friends (real mix-lesbians, single older women, work colleagues etc)  does any other LBS have this happening to them?

yes, definitely, to the above.  Lots of people in general, lots of women "friends" -- others have noticed that he has loads of all sorts of women as FB friends; possibly some that he has only met a few times.   And in conversations he has frequently referred to female friends, also talks about just going out with 'mates', and so on. 

Need to run now, those are my thoughts at the moment.  I'm not sure if your H is at that liminal stage; withdrawn, yes, but I think that may be more the depression type of withdrawal, the more I think about it. 
x

[HeartsBlessing]

I only have just a few comments for the moment and this is food for thought....


It it perfectly OK to just BE for awhile; and to BE OK....B, you really are getting to a point of obsession..this is not healthy.

I wrote and I will say it again; the MLC'er can begin reconnecting with friends; family, children...all the while, the LBS is the LAST IN LINE to get this kind of attention.

Right now, you need to again, focus on YOU...analyzing where he might be will NOT bring him through any faster; nor will it "short cut" the process.

I have often seen the same questions over and over again; and the same answers being given.  PLEASE slow down, and leave your MLC spouse twisting in the wind; no one is ever going to know EVERYTHING about EVERYTHING...time gets wasted when you get that deeply focused on a process that will run its course regardless of what you do/don't do.

Love to you,
HB

[Dontgiveup]

Adding the link to the blog RCR wrote on Liminality a couple of days ago.

http://loveanyway.theherosspouse.com/?paged=2

[Rollercoasterider]

I just posted a new post at the blog.
This is an article that I thought was alread published at the main site or blog, but I couldn't find it when I searched. I'd love it if you guys could help me out with by discussing any thoughts you may have here.
Limbo: The Threshold Between Stages

RCR,
I know you are chasing one word, but this is a topic I have been thinking a lot about, and is from the perspective of a High Energy MLcer.. I think the second part of Replay is one of the most confusing areas, as elements of all the stages come through in this stage. For me, Hard Replay is easy to define, its the classic running and avoidance. The second half of Replay is a gradual transition. It starts with the pity party as the Tsunami of replay activities start to catch up, and energy levels start to burn out. We hear "why do I get all the bad luck" at the start of this period. The Replay activities still continue but the buzz has worn off. The MLCer, I believe, usually has a back up plan to pull their life together after blowing off steam, and perhaps they try this towards the end of Hard Replay. But they start to loose control of the ability to do so, and depression seems to hit pretty hard to parallel to this.
Signs of movement through the second stage of replay perhaps start with genuine attempts to take care of practical matters, such as finances. Admitting they are the cause of that mess shows further steps. This seems to eventually open the door to the thoughts that perhaps they actually contributed to the emotional situation too. The further along the second part of Replay they get, the more clarity comes. But to move to the next stage they need to generate enough energy to do so. Increasing depression and withdrawal, and dips into liminality occur. It is a very grey zone, that seems to often need external events to propell through to the steps. The puzzle pieces start to be seen, but they are not yet in a place to put the puzzle together and move forward, that is the next stage? There can be a lot of clarity while stile in the second part of Replay too. Much movement looks promising, but keeps going nowhere. It is only in hindsight that we know this stage has been moved through.
The first part of replay is High Energy, but the second part for a high energy MLCer can still be High Energy too, just not as high.
To sum it up in one word? Ugggggg! OK, a better word or phrase? Running out of steam? You are not in Kansas any more Toto? What happened to my green grass on the other side? Lower Energy Confusion?
Something to suggest it is complex and it seems common to see quite a bit of the next phases mixed in too.

After reading this post from Storm Rider in greater depth in order to add details into my manuscript revisions, I realized that what I might becalling Limbo--and Awakening in particular--might be what she is referring to when she talks about the 2nd half of Replay and the decline in energy.
As of now I've classified it as a between the stages place, but I think it may be better as she sees it. The seeds of each stage are present in the previous and the continue into the next--usually the stages have a gradual transition rather than a clear boundary--that would be Limbo where in the first par tof it they are still in Escape & Avoid and in the next part of Limbo they are in early Liminality.
But I think I should move the awakening description to my Separation chapter--the Escape & Avoid section following the two type--high and low energy. I might keep it with the intro about Limbo--revising it so it's not really a separate stage, but the bridge that is in both Escape & Avoid and Liminality. That would be good for the manuscript--the Limbo chapter is short and I could do away with it as a separate chapter.
 
So what are your thoughts?

[Ready2Transform]

I kind of think of that part as "recall" instead of "replay", I guess, in my situation.  That's where my H really seems to be, from your description on the blog and here, because he's definitely still in replay, but he's literally starting to "recall" other elements of our old life and re-evaluate where he wants to go.  I certainly hope it's just a "portal" to the next phase (another possible word for it), where it opens the door to that unfortunate depression that's no doubt to come. 

[Mamma Bear]

   Professor RCR, I like what you are doing. It is comprehensible and I really like what Storm Rider threw out there very much.  It does seem interesting though that some spouses, like mine, run hard and fast and then burn out and start with the whole 'grass isn't greener what happened?' and some are like my friend Wed2Him's H who has just been fantasizing about moving back home to the good ole days. Takes a vacation back home alone.  Mostly sitting around complaining and unfriending her on FB. Low energy throughout for him, No? Will he eventually kick in to High energy at some point?
  I get confused by the MLCers like hers bc it almost seems except for the ILYBINILWY speech he's pretty slug-like snails pace...(No offense Wed I love your crazy H)   A quandary  
  Anyway, this is a good discussion. My h is still over at ows 14 mos since BD. Says he loves Mommy. Says he couldn't stop the downward spiral of sadness. But still took his furniture and his ow and they are playing house. (he looks like cr*p. pale, disheveled, messy hair, unshaven)  Like a Beatnick...
   I will be thinking of terms to describe what you speak of,  RCR. I like making words. 
  Again Storm Rider excellent recap.

[Shantilly Lace]

I agree with Storm.


With DH the first replay activities, were going out lots and carrying on, total blame on me.
BUt as time has gone on it isn’t quite the same.  He sees that damage could be done to the girls and that it wasn’t all my fault, added with the qualifying statement of that he didn’t want to try though. 


He is still in replay.  And right now he is monster so like BD in many ways.  The girls WILL like ow, the girls HAVE to put up with her in his life.  I am with her forever.


Right, anyhow.


But I see the depression, he is uncomfortable in his house (trying to make a statement perhaps?) and the ramping up the activities is indicative to me he is sliding.  As is monster, it gives a boost to keep him from sliding further.  Can’t last and I see the scrabbling.  Another thing I have seen is the flicking of personality again.  Has happened a few times.  In the beginning it was like a light switch, on, off, on, off.  And then it slowed.  But now it seems to be happening again.  I’m not reading anything into it as he bounced last year, but this year, this year there is a lot different and he may pretend he is fine but he’s not really.


There is a lot of movement I agree  It is all about movement but you don’t always see it and yes DH was stuck.  He was quite comfortable with what was going on, well maybe familiar is more the term, he knew what was happening and even if not truly happy why upset the applecart.  I think at this stage 2 years for me that I was strong enough to upset the applecart and wear the consequences.  i was ready for him to flee to ow and I knew I would be all right.  As the LBS heals the applecart gets upset naturally.  NOt on purpose but we just look at the MLCer and think MEH.  Love you but I can do this.  Love you but if you don’t want me MEH.


It takes a while to get there for us.  We can fake it but until we truly feel it, it ISN’T real and when things are fake we can spot them a mile away.  That is why you can’t manipulate by pretending.


My MLCer is high energy.  And right now it shows.  Parties, trips away, fun things with the young D’s but it’s not the same.  It won’t give the same high.  And the fact up to 3 of his girls are missing at any one time well as much as he says they had a wonderful time, it was fabulous, so much fun, it really does sound like he protests too much.  He is losing what he really wants in life and he just isn’t sure what to do as he knows he has mucked things up in a big way and he convinced himself his new life would fix it all.  Still much easier to blame me.