[Trustandlove]

Perhaps I can comment as I am a long way into this.  In my sitch I clearly saw the first, "hard" replay last 2.5 years -- at that point  he had some sort of awakening, at least to the fact that he had hurt me; he was aware that he had been doing all sorts of things (crazy, sometimes illegal, definitely immoral)  because he was afraid of aging, afraid of not having time to do them all, and so on. 

Was aware that he had made some bad decisions professionally as well, although not yet at the point of being able to change that -- that came a bit later.   Although when he did change it, it was still in a direction that was at odds with what he professed to think about himself. 

Don't know if he at that point came to a more clear decision that he didn't want to return to the marriage; in hindsight it seems so.  However, he ran back into escape-and-avoid then, but then that all crashed at the 3.5 year mark.   He again then seemed to have a small awakening to some things then, asked to talk to me about them, but all that came out was that yet again he felt guilty.  Guilt has been the constant theme, along with his saying that he has come to terms with it. 

Since then he has seemed to move back to the beginning; I guess only in hindsight will we ever know if this is back into escape-and-avoid or a firm decision; his demeanor seems to indicate avoid, avoid, avoid.  But he also now seems more determined to divorce, saying that this latest OW is now the one.  So much of his behaviour is the way it was at the beginning; I've seen this in cycles as well, only this latest cycle (latest OW, probably) is taking longer than the previous ones. 

The children miss him desperately; they are disappointed in so much; he spends less and less time with us/them, and even when he's planned "dedicated" time with one or all, it often turns out that he's invited someone else along as well, which he only tells them about at the last minute.  Also, from what I can tell conversation is very superficial. 

Me he avoids as much as possible.

I guess another consistency is that he says that he doesn't want to do anything that might give the children (i.e. me) any hope that he might come back.  So the separateness is very, very important to him.   I think that also indicates a degree of insecurity, because although he has said repeatedly that he will talk to the children, he hasn't done so.  Again, avoid. 

He has, like some others have mentioned, stepped up what I'd call replay activities; frequent trips abroad, constant, as far as I can tell, going out in town.  Always in a hurry to be somewhere else.   Lots of chatting, never actually talking -- not that I would get to do that anyway any more (during previous cycles and in between cycles he would come to me), but one person who is still in touch with him tells me that he shuts down any conversation if it is in danger of getting anywhere near personal. 

And yes, "replay clothes" also in evidence much more.  Even D has commented on it; she also noticed one day when he was wearing older things, and told him how much she liked that better.... 

Professionally seems determined to make this latest venture work; that in and of itself isn't a bad thing.  A big difference between what he's doing now and what he always did is that quality and prestige to a degree were always important to him; what he's doing now is about as downmarket as it could be, so very, very different in that regard. 

Finances, from what little I can tell, are a mess; he does pride himself on sending us the money each month, though, saying that by doing that he isn't letting us down. 

The feeling I sometimes get is that he's now at a point where he thinks "whew -- almost fell into the river, but found another stepping stone".  He has felt along the way that he's messed up a lot; he's still looking for outside things to fix everything. 

And finally, he is back to blaming me -- strongly.  There was a time in the middle where he didn't so so as much, but now that's back in full force.  Both saying that he doesn't see anything in me that he wants, and overtly saying that I am at fault for whatever is wrong right now. 

So where does that fit the "pattern"? 

The reservation I have about the awakening thing is that it makes it all seem like it should follow an orderly pattern -- deep replay, awakening, limbo, liminality, integration, crisis over. 

I'm not seeing that, although i do recognise that we only see it fully in the rear view mirror. 

[Storm Rider]

I think that this period is where the type of MLCer dictates how they will react at his stage, in particular, if they have been a high energy MLCer or a low energy MLCer. I think this period is also influenced mainly by the amount of damage done in during Hard Replay.

From looking at sitches at this stage, it seems to me there are three main personalities. First is the Low Energy MLCer. This person jumped on the laid back steam train during Hard Replay. They escaped and avoided, but at the end of Hard Replay, where they land, they have burned off the MLC energy, but still have pretty much control of their life. They may have collected debts, but they can be serviced, they still have their homes and their job, or a job on a comparable level. As they do not have the Tsunami of Replay to deal with, Hard Replay fizzles out, and they seem more likely to land in the classic Limbo, no external demands that require them to keep taking steps forward in the tunnel. Trusting's H springs to mind here, as does Mermaids. Perhaps they are more likely to live at home, and never moved out.

The second is the Moderate energy MLCer. They have done more damage during Hard Replay, and from a practical sense their options are may be very curtailed, but they still have options. They may have eventually moved out, maybe in with OW. Trust and Love, I see your H as one of these.

The third is the classic High Energy MLCer. These people jumped on the Rocket in a bullet proof vest, and went very very hard. The end of Hard Replay was probably due to money running out, not because they ran out of energy. Practical matters demanded that they change at this stage. They have spend well beyond their means, with no thought for tomorrow, and when they stop Hard Replay, there is a good chance they have lost their source of income, and perhaps their house and Replay toys.

At the end of Hard Replay, the path the MLCer takes depends on the above.

Low Energy MLCers perhaps fizzle out as a wind up toy low on batteries. They seem more likely to arrive at the destination of Limbo. There are no real practical matters to push them through the second part of Replay, hence their emotional awakening may take longer.

Medium Energy MLCers perhaps have the luxury of cycling back into Replay for longer. They still can scrap together the funds, and therefore can still Escape and Avoid for as long as they like. Again, they are not forced to look at themselves at the end of Hard Replay. They can potentially move to a higher energy Limbo.

The High Energy MLCers, well at the end of Hard Replay, the money has run out. And as the bills hit them, it is their name only that is on them. To begin with, it is why me, but the black and white evidence of practical matters suggests eventually to them that they are the common denominator. I think this may start High Energy MLCers on the road to Liminality earlier than the lower energy types. That sounds good, but the High Energy MLCer has a huge amount of practical mess to sort our before they can reach real Liminality. Those with babies perhaps fall into this category too.

I like the phase Early Lininality, it explains a lot. The definition I get of Liminality is that it is a time of realistic processing of issues. Just as at BD we do not process everything in one day, during Early Liminality, processing is intermittent. The practical matters are processed first. Perhaps Low Energy MLCers can skip the practical processing, which is why they may go to Limbo, emotional matters are much harder to process. The processing of practical matters forces the High Energy MLCer to look at their world through different lens, and leads to the door of emotional processing too. But it must be done in tandem with the processing of piratical problems, so it remains intermittent. Early Liminality to me describes the period from 18 months onwards, and may really last a couple of years. It is a part of what is currently called Replay.

The awakening while described as a stage is really the awakening of reality on many different issues. I see this as being intermittent also. The fog may roll back for short periods of time, and various issues may surface. For an awakening on an issue, we need to hear it consistently for say 3 months. They may then move onto the next issue to awaken on. The easy issue are the first awakening, moving onto the harder issues of their relationship with us and also OW. When they have had an awakening on all the major issues, consistently, they then need the energy to act on them. When this energy builds up enough, that becomes the awakening of OW that HB speaks about. There is a need to act on that, and how their life has become, to move forward. But the ability to do so is still a work in progress.

Perhaps true Liminality is where the decision to change their life is made. A change in direction of their situation, and who they are. And after making so many bad choices, they are confident enough to stand behind their choices here. To me, this is where the Withdrawal and Depression stages kick in. They need to think about the choices they are making, and get the energy to do so. But it continues to be back and forward, not one clear path.

It is all very confusing, and at this stage depends so much on the individual and situation. Once they start comes towards us again, they stages seem to again be more uniform, and we all start hearing and seeing similar things again, as we did the first part of Replay.

These are just my thoughts!

Cheers

SR

[OldPilot]

I think that this period is where the type of MLCer dictates how they will react at his stage, in particular, if they have been a high energy MLCer or a low energy MLCer. I think this period is also influenced mainly by the amount of damage done in during Hard Replay.

From looking at sitches at this stage, it seems to me there are three main personalities. First is the Low Energy MLCer. This person jumped on the laid back steam train during Hard Replay. They escaped and avoided, but at the end of Hard Replay, where they land, they have burned off the MLC energy, but still have pretty much control of their life. They may have collected debts, but they can be serviced, they still have their homes and their job, or a job on a comparable level. As they do not have the Tsunami of Replay to deal with, Hard Replay fizzles out, and they seem more likely to land in the classic Limbo, no external demands that require them to keep taking steps forward in the tunnel. Trusting's H springs to mind here, as does Mermaids. Perhaps they are more likely to live at home, and never moved out.

The second is the Moderate energy MLCer. They have done more damage during Hard Replay, and from a practical sense their options are may be very curtailed, but they still have options. They may have eventually moved out, maybe in with OW. Trust and Love, I see your H as one of these.

The third is the classic High Energy MLCer. These people jumped on the Rocket in a bullet proof vest, and went very very hard. The end of Hard Replay was probably due to money running out, not because they ran out of energy. Practical matters demanded that they change at this stage. They have spend well beyond their means, with no thought for tomorrow, and when they stop Hard Replay, there is a good chance they have lost their source of income, and perhaps their house and Replay toys.

At the end of Hard Replay, the path the MLCer takes depends on the above.

Low Energy MLCers perhaps fizzle out as a wind up toy low on batteries. They seem more likely to arrive at the destination of Limbo. There are no real practical matters to push them through the second part of Replay, hence their emotional awakening may take longer.

Medium Energy MLCers perhaps have the luxury of cycling back into Replay for longer. They still can scrap together the funds, and therefore can still Escape and Avoid for as long as they like. Again, they are not forced to look at themselves at the end of Hard Replay. They can potentially move to a higher energy Limbo.

The High Energy MLCers, well at the end of Hard Replay, the money has run out. And as the bills hit them, it is their name only that is on them. To begin with, it is why me, but the black and white evidence of practical matters suggests eventually to them that they are the common denominator. I think this may start High Energy MLCers on the road to Liminality earlier than the lower energy types. That sounds good, but the High Energy MLCer has a huge amount of practical mess to sort our before they can reach real Liminality. Those with babies perhaps fall into this category too.

I like the phase Early Lininality, it explains a lot. The definition I get of Liminality is that it is a time of realistic processing of issues. Just as at BD we do not process everything in one day, during Early Liminality, processing is intermittent. The practical matters are processed first. Perhaps Low Energy MLCers can skip the practical processing, which is why they may go to Limbo, emotional matters are much harder to process. The processing of practical matters forces the High Energy MLCer to look at their world through different lens, and leads to the door of emotional processing too. But it must be done in tandem with the processing of piratical problems, so it remains intermittent. Early Liminality to me describes the period from 18 months onwards, and may really last a couple of years. It is a part of what is currently called Replay.

The awakening while described as a stage is really the awakening of reality on many different issues. I see this as being intermittent also. The fog may roll back for short periods of time, and various issues may surface. For an awakening on an issue, we need to hear it consistently for say 3 months. They may then move onto the next issue to awaken on. The easy issue are the first awakening, moving onto the harder issues of their relationship with us and also OW. When they have had an awakening on all the major issues, consistently, they then need the energy to act on them. When this energy builds up enough, that becomes the awakening of OW that HB speaks about. There is a need to act on that, and how their life has become, to move forward. But the ability to do so is still a work in progress.

Perhaps true Liminality is where the decision to change their life is made. A change in direction of their situation, and who they are. And after making so many bad choices, they are confident enough to stand behind their choices here. To me, this is where the Withdrawal and Depression stages kick in. They need to think about the choices they are making, and get the energy to do so. But it continues to be back and forward, not one clear path.

It is all very confusing, and at this stage depends so much on the individual and situation. Once they start comes towards us again, they stages seem to again be more uniform, and we all start hearing and seeing similar things again, as we did the first part of Replay.

EXCELLENT SR!

I like it, I might only add that the MLC'er already made one decision to change their life by entering into MLC.

Liminiliaty is when they might decide that the change has brought them down a cheesless tunnel,
and they maybe made a major mistake in their thought process.

[Trustandlove]

Interestng discourse on low, moderate and high energy MLCers; that's an extra 'category' (the medium) that we haven't really added before. 

From what I can see my H has avoided liminality; there was a time at the 2.5 year mark when he said that he cried a lot and wondered if he loved himself, but that swiftly went away.  So no consistent facing of anything.  Indeed, I have seen panic and depression surfacing on occasion, but he always beats it down. 

SR, I think it is interesting about the "moderate-energy" MLCer; a lot of damage caused but not as much as some; there still is money, or rather a source of income, even though huge amounts of been spent; somehow he finds the means to continue the activities.  I can think of a few times when he has avoided a reckoning; someone has bailed him out.   He hasn't lost all of his ability to charm. 

I think your comments about this period being influenced by the amount of damage done during hard replay is also notable. 

There is much more I could say; don't have time now, but I do like how you've analysed this. 

Of course, it also makes you wonder what on earth would be needed for a moderate-energy MLCer to change anything....

[Rollercoasterider]

Hope Floats,
Your situation is reminding me that Sweetheart was in Taunt-n-Flaunt in 2006, home in 2007 and that was just quiet—not really depression and as a Clinging Boomerang I wouldn’t say Reconnection because he’d been home so often that I feel we were connected in that way, but we weren’t really rebuilding either, so it was tense. That’s when the affair was clandestine. But then when I discovered the affair was ongoging and kicked him out he returned to the Reply taunt-n-flaunt in 2008.
So in 2006 he was like that from April through August. During that period he was hom from April until July 7. Once he left he redirected his antics so they were no longer poitned at me. At times during the early period of that move home (He came home 29 March) I noticed blue moments, maybe a day or two at a time, but not significant. I think his taunt-flaunting may have been a function of the pressure and Emotional Black mail from the alienator and she tended to give him a break in the first weeks after he left her house to come—it was a pattern.
In 2008 the severity of his Replay antics were at 2005 bomb drop levels. I think they may have been high in 2006 as well, but since I was not longer raw and in shock, it didn’t feel as bad because I was handling it better. I was handling it in 2008 as well, but intelectually it seems shocking or amazing that he was all the way back at such high-energy and that was his last MLC activity before truly coming home. As soon as he left home the last time, it stopped—and I think we both knew it would. He once told me he knew he wanted to come home only three days after he left, a day or so after that he said he’d wanted to come home as he was driving to the alienator’s house. I think he had even left the week before and said he couldn’t do it, so he was back home by the time I came home from work. He knew before he left it was a mistake—that he didn’t want to do it. But at the same time we both knew he would leave and that it was the only way—though maybe that knowledge was subconscious on his part.

Hope Floats, I’m not saying this is where your MCLer is or what he’s doing…that’s the sort of thing we can’t know until afterwards, but it reminds me.

And this is the brilliance of HeartsBlessing. She adapted or reinterpreted Jim Conway’s stages. At one point I was even trying to write a comparative essay on the two and so I looked in detail at each stage as he described it versus her descriptions. She is a much better writer than Jim! But in the final stage—Acceptance—she added something brilliant. Brilliant! And that may (or must) have been what was going on with Sweetheart in that last burst of Replay.

6th Stage of a Mid Life Crisis

ACCEPTANCE

The Mid Lifer has navigated through five stages of his/her Mid Life crisis by now, and begins into the final stage--Acceptance.

Now, Acceptance is entered in "Stages" Three, to be exact.
…
Now during stage TWO of Acceptance, will come the temptations to want to go back to what they came out of. The silence of the spouse is most important during this time-all you can do is be understanding and patient with them as this MUST happen and they MUST come through alone.
They will SEEM to be going backward, but aren't, this is necessary for them to move forward.
It is during this time they will "revisit" ALL stages of the Mid Life Crisis except Denial and shuts the "doors" to each stage PERMANENTLY one by one, never to return.
If they give in to temptation OR get spooked by their final fears, they WILL run BACK into the tunnel a little ways. But they can only run back as far as the doors have NOT been closed permanently; most of the time they just run back as far as WITHDRAWAL, but will continue the process to come out once they feel "safe" to continue. So, they must be allowed to come through WITHOUT interruption, no matter what happens.

TrustAndLove,
That’s the thing about Awakening and maybe even that last bit in HeartsBlessing’s Acceptance; they can run back and get stuck. Awakening isn’t a straight march forward, it just is a bit of a jolt—and it jolts some backward and some forward.
Your MLCers is like a recycler; he keeps recycling Replay with each new alienator. He’s is a High-Energy MLCer. In a few of the Low-Energy threads you were a bit uncertain since there are different moods when he displays different energy. But it seems that having an alienator is the motivation for the energy. He hasn’t had a good Affair Down with Emotional Blackmail maybe—and yet that might be because he has enough inner strength and power to refuse such manipulation—since the initial crazy alienator really didn’t work out. He wants an alienator, but maybe he’s pickier than most MLCers.

I think the pattern is that he has never left Replay. He wants that high-energy alienator and each time he has a prospect he goes for the energy thrill. But they don’t last long enough for him to burn through anything. He then has a little Awakening where he may show some clarity and express his guilt while trying to boost his energy with other types of alienators—work. But he continuously refuses to drink from the liminal pool

…Just as at BD we do not process everything in one day, during Early Liminality, processing is intermittent. …Early Liminality to me describes the period from 18 months onwards, and may really last a couple of years. It is a part of what is currently called Replay.

Storm Rider,

AAAAAhhh, where is my article on Intermittent Liminality?! It’s part of the Limbo chapter, but I really did think I’d posted it a long time ago but I just googled and can’t find it. Oh, well, I can post it at the blog—since it goes with yesterday’s post.
I think you are right, that Liminality will start intermittently. But I also think it can be intermittent for some. Why? Well honestly it’s because I can’t figure out a full or deep Liminality for Sweetheart, but I definitely saw healthy activities that could have served liminal purpose—specifically his yard projects.

Well, the weird thing is that I was sure my Intermittent Liminality piece was longer and more detailed, but I must have edited it down some time ago. Maybe there is something I posted here at the forum I can find.
Okay, it looks like I talked about in coaching posts. I’ll review those and see if they have a bit more depth than what’s in the manuscript.

[Wed2Him?Whatever.]

   Professor RCR, I like what you are doing. It is comprehensible and I really like what Storm Rider threw out there very much.  It does seem interesting though that some spouses, like mine, run hard and fast and then burn out and start with the whole 'grass isn't greener what happened?' and some are like my friend Wed2Him's H who has just been fantasizing about moving back home to the good ole days. Takes a vacation back home alone.  Mostly sitting around complaining and unfriending her on FB. Low energy throughout for him, No? Will he eventually kick in to High energy at some point?
  I get confused by the MLCers like hers bc it almost seems except for the ILYBINILWY speech he's pretty slug-like snails pace...(No offense Wed I love your crazy H)   A quandary

Thanks Mamma I love my H too (most days).
And I agree there should be some type of a discussion regarding whether there is any predictability with regards to the various energy levels.  Will an MLCer bounce back and forth from low to high and degrees in between?  And how does their energy level correlate to the stage they're in?  How do outside circumstances determine energy level?  In my own sitch I know that my H would've moved out, had financial and employment concerns not impeded him.  And had he been able to move out I believe his Replay behaviors could've become extreme.  Do "wrong" actions (pressure, questions, beg n pleading) by the LBS serve to increase the energy level?  Like, if I began trying to have R talks with my H, would he decide he's moving out after all?

[trusting]

SR,

Low Energy MLCers perhaps fizzle out as a wind up toy low on batteries. They seem more likely to arrive at the destination of Limbo. There are no real practical matters to push them through the second part of Replay, hence their emotional awakening may take longer.

And this is something I have wondered about and discussed with other LBS.  It does seem my H may be "stuck" right now.  He hasn't got much to push him forward.  He is relatively comfortable where he is.  I do think it is very possible low energy MLCers may take longer to get through the process than high energy ones.  I guess time (and lots of it apparently) will tell.

[Shantilly Lace]

In 2008 the severity of his Replay antics were at 2005 bomb drop levels. I think they may have been high in 2006 as well, but since I was not longer raw and in shock, it didn’t feel as bad because I was handling it better. I was handling it in 2008 as well, but intelectually it seems shocking or amazing that he was all the way back at such high-energy and that was his last MLC activity before truly coming home.

That’s how I feel, that I am not as raw and the hurt isn’t it there.  When he upped to BD replay I was also surprised.  It seems he is trying to make a statement.Well he can make it all he wants, I am not going to run and hide, nor am I going to curl up and cry.  I think that surprises him.  I am watching him with vague amusement and frustration. 

As soon as he left home the last time, it stopped—and I think we both knew it would. He once told me he knew he wanted to come home only three days after he left, a day or so after that he said he’d wanted to come home as he was driving to the alienator’s house. I think he had even left the week before and said he couldn’t do it, so he was back home by the time I came home from work. He knew before he left it was a mistake—that he didn’t want to do it. But at the same time we both knew he would leave and that it was the only way—though maybe that knowledge was subconscious on his part.

Dearheart has said this a few times at the BEGINNING, that he wanted to come home.  Not now.  I suppose that makes it harder for some that they say things and then change their minds and you don’t hear it a gain.  Makes it feel like they mean it.  Except I can’t say I ever believed it.  Not when he is still bringing things “home”, not when after first BD he took them up to ow’s.  Things sit and stay here.

Hope Floats, I’m not saying this is where your MCLer is or what he’s doing…that’s the sort of thing we can’t know until afterwards, but it reminds me.

I agree with you, who knows where he is, except in replay the antics have upped again and it is safer to believe that is where he will stay for a while.  I will be journalling so we will see.

[Anjae]

I consider my husband High Energy. He is been in hard replay for over 5.5 years and I see no signs of it calming down. The money had not run out because he managed to turn his hard replay activities into money makers.

He is still going out to clubs and party until the day breaks, he keeps 3 jobs, he sleeps very little.

I saw a little awakening in him over 4 years ago when he and OW1 parted. He said she had been a wrong idea of how to sort problems and he knew he had done wrong. He pretty quick got into more hard replay activities, OW2 soon come along, they moved in together.

It is like he never burns out. OW2 has been lasting far more than OW1. During OW1 I was around, would have the relationship talk, push, saw monster often. When OW2 got into the picture I already was away, there has never been any talk about her, I went NC he become a vanisher.

Leaving him to himself does not seem to have worked out… looks like it only prolonged is Replay and made things worse?… Or maybe he is stuck… I wonder…

[Buggy31]

Hi everyone
I've been laying low with posting lately mostly for my own forward movement.  I must add to the conversation here as my Hs behavior has been so similiar to BD lately that it threw me off.  My timelines are similiar to SR and HF and I have a high energy replayer that was low energy I believe until he left then he kicked into HIGH gear..anyway...after having very little monster in awhile and NO R talk...I get lots of engagement this week...it was out of nowhere really but what I thought was interesting was that he was returning to the attitude he had just when he left...lots of justification...he knows he hurt me and D9..he knows he was wrong...and I am like WTH  who was asking...really his engagement of me seems almost desperate...he's desperate for my attention...this is how it feels..one minute we're joking and maybe a bit lighthearted the next he will send me a text about my nerve...the next minute he won't even come in the house  ...even D9 was like mom what happened...and I said  I dunno know...Somethings up but I can't put a finger on it..but it felt like he returned to the attitude he had at BD..and in my mind I was thinking aren't we past this..really...how long are we going to stay here...and what this boils down to in my mind is that we are in very different places and the MLCer is behind and the interaction this week really shows me how behind they can be..not like it's a race but they are really in a very different place.

It seems like he's processing the same stuff he was trying to at BD and it's back.  I hope this makes sense. 

Just my .02
HUGS
BUGS