[Nas]

there's few people who have that strength or internal character where their sense of right/wrong overrides the desire to not rock the boat.

I can't be the only one who had this response, but I don't think having internal character equals ignoring another adult's autonomy. If we were to view anyone who isn't intervening in a situation in a way that skews things in our favor as "lacking strength of character," we'd never have an authentic connection with anyone. Even if we concede the opposite is also acceptable behavior, that people can and should be expected to intervene in situations that don't favor an outcome we want (such as people telling our spouse to divorce us, because, from what they see, it's just "easier"), it's still a transactional view of people. "You are in my life if you side with me/condemn those who hurt me" works for Tony Soprano, not so much for me. Worse, "You are in my life, but since you didn't condemn those who hurt me, I'll always have a little resentment bubbling below the surface" - if we want to care about people and be cared about authentically, we have to trust the people we care about to make their own choices. JMHO.

Edit: I meant to add we also have to trust them to deal with their emotions in their own way, even if that is a way that disappoints us or hurts us. When we enter into relationship with other people, if we want to be authentic and real, we have to risk that it might not go the way we want. Our care for them shouldn’t hinge on an outcome, should it?

[marvin4242]

I can't be the only one who had this response, but I don't think having internal character equals ignoring another adult's autonomy. If we were to view anyone who isn't intervening in a situation in a way that skews things in our favor as "lacking strength of character," we'd never have an authentic connection with anyone. Even if we concede the opposite is also acceptable behavior, that people can and should be expected to intervene in situations that don't favor an outcome we want (such as people telling our spouse to divorce us, because, from what they see, it's just "easier"), it's still a transactional view of people. "You are in my life if you side with me/condemn those who hurt me" works for Tony Soprano, not so much for me. Worse, "You are in my life, but since you didn't condemn those who hurt me, I'll always have a little resentment bubbling below the surface" - if we want to care about people and be cared about authentically, we have to trust the people we care about to make their own choices. JMHO.

My thoughts on this are that most people really are not comfortable nor clear about having bounded relationships. This applies whether it's a loved one, a friend, etc. What I mean by bounded includes understanding what you were saying above, that they are completely separate from us, we do not have any control over them, they are NOT responsible for our well being, and that also again goes to what you said, that we may get hurt. But if WE are bounded and we do not place our well being in the hands of another person (I know I did that in my marriage) then the hurt is manageable and not soul shattering. But people think being in "love" includes losing boundaries and merging in a way that IMHO is not healthy nor safe.

[MadLuv]

I think maybe my writing I mis conveyed something. I dont want them to step in at all and say anything m, but my XH and w/OW and kids are purposely doing things they know hurt our children. So, what I meant was if they go on vacation with ALL of them then it does hurt my children who are their blood for 30 plus years. I want them to have a relationship with their brother, but going on a vacation where he gets to play happy family with her adult kids when he ignores his own is an acceptance. My kids are in pain. Ny grandson is confused. I told my XH as long as he is married to her we have no relationship, so I feel if BIL and SIL start hanging out with them all without OuR children it is almost an acceptance.

My D33 and I talked a long time today. She said I asked my Grandma if my dad came with her to see her and she said no. He came alone. She said, have you met his wife and she said, no I never have. She also told her that her dad was distant and non engaging. Well, this weekend we found out he did bring her and he seemed normal and happy. D33 said, grandma lied to me and she added more things that weren't necessary . She made things up and added to the lie.

So, thats my issue. Its not them being with XH  but now they are all lying for him. He has been absent from their lives for 3 years and now they are all lying for him. Its not the moral I have nor my children. I told BIL that its taken a lot to try and not go crazy over the level deceit I have endured. I cant have anyone else purposely lie to me .

Also, If you noticed on XBIL and BIL I switched back and forth on that. I dont think their is much weight to be put on that or pointing that out. It is semantics on not knowing my place anymore. My X or BIL even said. I dont know what to call you now. I dont feel like your my XSIL, but I guess you are, but to me you are just MADLUV.

I think they truly love us all, but at this point they lying either purposely or by omission of  concealing it feels like more betrayal for us all. I told him and so dil D33. We dont need specifics, but if we ask a question we dont want to be lied to. I said, I never ask for details, but feel the same. If I ask something your not comfortable with the respectful thing to say would be “ I dont want to go there” that I can respect.  But if your going to be FAMILY and come into my home than I need to be respected.

My D33 said, let them go on vacation with them. It only takes a few minute to see the reality of the situation. They arent anyone they should be exposing their kids to and that is why my dad and I are estranged. I tried to have a relationship with them all, but They are not people that I can subject my children to.

[MadLuv]

Quote from: Standing Strong on Today at 08:42:56 AM
there's few people who have that strength or internal character where their sense of right/wrong overrides the desire to not rock the boat.


I am the rock the boat person. Hahahah!!  my nephew left his wife and new born son and never looked back. I told him exactly what I thought. He is still in my life, but limited. This year he signed over her son to her new husband. He will have a great life, but he will seek out his father most likey at some point . I don’t agree with bringing children in the world and walking away. Not at 1 day old of 30 years old. ( not meaning I am against giving children up for adoption , but having children you intended to raise and then walking away) It is unrecoverable harm. Even adopted children who have a beautiful family seek out birth families to complete their self. Understand where they came from, even though where they come from is where they were raised and have little to do with their genetics being the formation of their self.

[MadLuv]

Thank you all for the responses. In re- reading my own questions I can see where it came off that I want them to side. I dont and I do see that is trying to control.  If your family you want equal respect. The secret and omissions  is what I dont know if I can live with. After a decade of lies and deceit. The whole family now seems to be doing it. If I cant trust how can I move forward with them. Thats what I dont know now. Every ommision and lie triggers the whole “ do I even know you?”
I guess I dont know how to care about people less deeply or more surface level and his family now clearly does. This whole situation just keeps revealing a side of life and human nature that I absolutely hate.  So, that is where I am. Not controling them but controlling what exposes me to more pain. Thats is probably where the first responses ring true. I have to weigh the pros and cons of the relationships and what I can and cant live with.

[MadLuv]

Edit: I meant to add we also have to trust them to deal with their emotions in their own way, even if that is a way that disappoints us or hurts us. When we enter into relationship with other people, if we want to be authentic and real, we have to risk that it might not go the way we want. Our care for them shouldn’t hinge on an outcome, should it?

There are so many things I agree with on all the answers and some that I still cant completely in this situation agree. If we love someone but they hurt us are we to continue that relationship because we cant expect them not to disappoint us? Thats why we have boundaries on people that cause us pain. So, then are boundaries control? You see what I mean. I dont want to control, but I don’t want to be hurt anymore. I also cant look the other way on those that think not telling is  protecting. I am sure when my Xh started his many EA’s I am sure not telling me he thought he was protecting me from being hurt. Leaving in a trail of lies, again protecting me. However, some is totally to protect themselves. If that is a trigger for me now creating an issue of trust then what? My biggest issue for  me and probably my kids should solely lie with my XH. It is his behaviors that are driving all the outside people in his life to have to make decisions. I think everyone wishes none of this would happen and everyone is just doing their best. I think my XH is a very lucky man to have so many people willing to go to great lengths to be in his life in any way he allows and maybe that is the answer in it all. Accepting that.

[Evermore]

I think my XH is a very lucky man to have so many people willing to go to great lengths to be in his life in any way he allows and maybe that is the answer in it all. Accepting that.

Yes, that is the answer. Accepting that their relationship with your XH (in fact ANYONE’S relationship with your XH) is none of your business, is the answer. I know that’s hard.

I think of it like one of those ven diagrams. My relationship with my in laws includes me and them only. My xH’s (and OW) relationship with those same people includes them only. The circles don’t intersect. Their relationship, what they do together, what the say to each other, none of it, has anything to do with me, and it is not my business. I can’t (and shouldn’t) control what they do or don’t do. If I love these people and want them in my life (which I do) I have to accept that what they do is completely up to them. And I have to be ok with that (not having any control). I know it feels unfair. But life isn’t fair. And they are just navigating through as best they can (just like all of us).

[xyzcf]

I am sure not telling me he thought he was protecting me from being hurt. Leaving in a trail of lies, again protecting me. However, some is totally to protect themselves

Interesting, I had an opposite experience. After BD, a good friend saw my husband in a store on a Sunday afternoon with a women...the town is a really neat place with lots of high end shops and restaurants......they were looking at the art and jewelry..... I really really wish she had not told me...it is engraved on my mind and I seldom go to that town, or street because it causes a trigger for me that continues to this day. I am sure she thought she should tell me and I have often thought what would I do in her position...because of how badly this hurt me, I continue to think I would not say anything..because it changes nothing....he was already gone, I knew he was having an affair but that was in a different country...taking "her" into my space sickened me.

I dont want to control, but I don’t want to be hurt anymore. I also cant look the other way on those that think not telling is  protecting.

How do we avoid hurt?  I live in an area where many people I encounter worked at the same company as my husband....and that is a problem for me. I always think that they must be judging me because he is "such a wonderful guy" and everyone thinks he is just the cat's meow.

I have written about my own way of bringing the level of hurt down to something I can tolerate...for me that is to have contact with him so that he doesn't shake me. To have family times together and "avoid" asking him any questions or any discussions about "us". That has worked for me and our daughter. Many here would disagree but I would do the same if I had to do this over again.

maybe that is the answer in it all. Accepting that.

There are no right or wrong answers. Just as those who have a relationship with both us and our spouse.......it's a continual learning curve as to what helps us to find peace, calm and joy.

[Treasur]

I think the big message here is that acceptance also includes your right to choose what works best for you and what does not. That there is no right answer but acceptance includes accepting the current reality of your own needs and interests.

I think the big thing that jumps out at me - and perhaps the thing that those who have not got through this kind of life experience probably don’t get - is your visceral reaction to being lied to. Whatever the reason may be. Whatever your wider feelings about the people are. Even tbh when you understand why they might choose to lie. I get that. For some of us, maybe most of us, one of those consequences if this kind of betrayal trauma is that it leaves us questioning what is/was real about decades of our own life. And that’s a deeply unsettling thing to feel and hard to explain to anyone who hasn’t been there. It leaves many of us allergic to lies and with a sort of instinctive reaction to back away from people who lie to us. I suppose bc it makes us feel profoundly unsafe in our bones.

You’re not responsible for how others choose to deal with difficult things but imho it’s ok to honour any big internal No you feel. Or to see patterns in how your in/laws deal with truth and lies that are not a pattern you want to adjust around in your own family. That’s a sad thing, of course, but it’s ok imho to treat your own needs with respect whatever that looks like for you.

[MadLuv]

Evermore- I agree with a lot but  except what my XH is doing is none of my business. I was left with the whole destroyed family. He is still affecting them and I am dealing with those repercussions. Sometimes by misdirected anger or just venting . So there are some things I want to know . Have a heads up. Of course this wouldn’t be necessary if he was involved with his kids. He is choosing  to abandon his children and I dont think that is none of my business . He left me with his mess. Thats my business, but the rest in general I agree

xYZCF- I think since your XH is still involved you haven’t seen the same level as a complete vanisher.  Thats what I am dealing with. Which is where the problem lies. In some ways its great to not have to see or hear about him much, but his family does being him more to the forefront and that is where I have to decide of even if they keep to themselves is that a trigger still? In this case neither of us brought him up, but the 9 year old did and that will happen. Your with family and you talk about family.

Treasur- YES!!! That’s where I am. I am just trying to figure out how to protect my own peace and movement forward and how to do that and keep people that are important in my life . Seeing everyone and how they are handling the situation is really just showing me a completely avoidant family that will do anything to avoid the deep conversations in life. They want to live in a perfect scenario and hence why we are where we are.