[Biscuit]

Amazing,

It's been documented by a few MLCers that when they've come out of the really dark place that they were in during their crisis that big chunks of what they said and did are no longer  accessible to them as memories. Not sure if you've read ShockSis's account of her own MLC but she recounts only being able to recall a small percentage of her memories in her replay period. Like they have been wiped from her memory. I think Hearts Blessings may have written about it too, that if a person manages to navigate the MLC completely that much of what they went through would be discarded and not remembered in full.
There have been theories bandied around on HS and other forums that the MLC might almost be experienced by another facet or child of the psyche and that once it has run it's course that the issues of that child have been resolved and no longer form part of memories.

Just from personal experience, my W can no longer remember the awful things she said to me in early replay. Like there's a total memory block. And she's nowhere near out of her crisis yet.

[Treasur]

Anecdotally, lots of stories here about MLCers saying years later that they have no recall of things they said and did……and anecdotally lots of evidence that these folks act very reactively in the moment and disassociate and compartmentalise….basic human coping strategies that square our own psychological circles and that can affect how memories are filed and retrieved. As someone who had PTSD, I accept that some of my wiring hiccups during that time did affect my memory and sense of chronology.

Caveat though….i did not do some of the things my former h did….my damage was self-inflicted not inflicted on others. And the loss of my memories distressed me a great deal for a while bc working out what was real felt like the only way to dig myself out of PTSD. Whereas these folks have already shown us that one of the ways they deal with difficult things is to lie. A lot. About a lot. To lots of different people. And work very hard to avoid holding themselves accountable by denying tough facts or blaming others.  ‘I don’t remember’ can be pretty close to avoidance imho as a life tactic. And a kind of gaslighting ‘hall pass’ maybe. Perhaps it just depends on someone’s agenda at the time and is a bit of a mix of all these things, idk .

It’s a tough thing for most LBS, particularly if they see what is happening as an MLC type situation, to work out for themselves their own judgement about the line of ‘mad vs bad’, and how responsible we should see people as being for their own actions if they would be deemed as having ‘mens rea’ legally and practically. Or indeed for the LBS to accept the possibility that someone they loved and trusted would intentionally and repeatedly hurt them to meet their own needs and wants. More an issue of character than crises perhaps.

One can get a bit lost in these long philosophical grasses though.
Imho what helps most is to focus on peoples’ current behaviour and trust your own judgement about what feels healthy and acceptable to you. If things change, one can adapt one’s lens accordingly.

In the short-term, for most LBS, it is usually more useful - if still deeply painful - to start with the assumption that something quacking like a duck is most probably a duck and to respond accordingly. I have no idea why my former h behaved as if he hated me and wanted me dead and thought me and my family did not deserve better after two decades….but his memory of that (or not) now would not change one jot of the reality of what happened to me then. Making some kind of peace and perspective with that is imho part of the process for most LBS….we don’t always reach the same conclusions and our situations differ as do the nature of any future connections we have with our ex/spouse, but most of us strive to make some kind of peace and acceptance with it in our own way. One sort of has to really in order to move forward from it and feel comfortably sane lol….i have no idea how MLC spouses do that but I would imagine they have their own version of that. And perhaps not remembering is part of how they do it? Idk

[xyzcf]

It is not surprising that once their crisis is over, they do not remember some of what  happened. Since we do not really understand the pathology which caused the crisis, it's hard to pinpoint.

The brain is a complicated system and responds to many influences.

Thinking about this, I did a quick search and found the following things listed that can cause memory issues.

"Short-term memory loss can be caused by many medical conditions, including:
Brain damage: Brain injuries, such as concussions, strokes, and brain bleeds can damage the brain and cause memory loss.
Infections: Infections in or around the brain can cause memory loss.
Vitamin deficiencies: A deficiency of vitamin B12 can cause memory loss, confusion, and disorientation.
Mental health conditions: Depression and anxiety can cause memory loss.
Medications: Some medications, such as statins, anxiety medications, and antiseizure drugs, can cause memory loss.
Thyroid problems: Hypothyroidism can cause memory loss, trouble concentrating, and "brain fog".
Transient ischemic attack (TIA): A TIA is a brief episode when parts of the brain don't receive enough blood, and in rare cases, it can cause memory loss.
Electroconvulsive therapy: A common side effect of electroconvulsive therapy is short-term memory alteration.
Other causes of short-term memory loss include: Alcohol and drug abuse, Heavy cigarette smoking, Sleep deprivation, Severe stress, and Not eating enough healthy foods. "

I have often pondered what an MLCer's brian would look like on an MRI or post mortum...would there be signs of ischemia? tumors? areas of the brain that are dead?

"Post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) can impact the brain in a number of ways, including the hippocampus, the amygdala, the prefrontal cortex, and the posterior cingulate cortex (PCC):
Hippocampus
The hippocampus is the part of the brain that handles memories and emotions. When someone experiences a traumatic event, the hippocampus works to make sense of and remember the event. However, the brain's stress response to a traumatic event can cause the hippocampus to be damaged or inhibited, which can lead to memory impairment. This can make it difficult to form new long-term memories and can cause short-term memory loss. "

Many LBSers have reported that their partners have told them they were in a "fog" or they do not remember things that happened during their crisis. We have witnessed the physical signs, the dark "shark" eyes for example and the inability to show empathy and compassion in a person who previously was loving and caring.

Something has happened to cause the crisis. The science exists to explain issues with memory and brain function.

Another condition that popped into my head as I am contemplating this is amnesia

"Generalized amnesia
A rare type of dissociative amnesia where people forget their identity and life history. It's more common in people who have experienced extreme stress or conflict, such as combat veterans or victims of sexual assault. "

Could some of these things affect the MLCer's brain and their memory of events that occurred? I think it is possible and that considering some of the pre crisis issues our partners have experienced, not really surprising.

[Flummoxed]

Thanks for sharing all these findings- honestly, it’s a very interesting read. I agree, xyzcf- if it wasn’t being experienced head on, MLC is a very intriguing subject. I really wish there was actual scientific research behind this condition- truly, what a world of difference it would make for us all to better understand and treat!

Journaling a bit:
As expected, my counteroffer to his initial value offered was shut down immediately and he lowballed a settlement offer like crazy. Made a bunch of false claims and acted as though the IC he is meeting is due to our relationship. He went on to say he was never happy in our marriage- that comment hurt me the most (along with blaming me for the reason he’s in therapy).

Instead of spiraling, as I would have done, I’m trying to take a step back and see the bigger picture. I guess it’s normal for MLCers (like anyone) to fight for what they want legally if you don’t just accept their offer- they want what they want and you’re not giving in, right?  I guess I’m surprised a bit because my counter was honestly very reasonable. He would have had an easy divorce and would have been able to freely live his life without me. Seems silly to lowball to the extreme- but I guess MLCers are so convinced of their reality and truly are emotionally driven. Because, logically, if he was supposedly unhappy for our entire marriage, wouldn’t it have been his priority to end it ASAP and move on? Why would he have stayed married this entire time and had affairs?

So I’m seeing it as more of a monstering issue. I haven’t dealt with Monster much personally yet- and he’s in the cool, calm, rational side of monster so  it’s a bit less obvious to me. But maybe I hurt his ego when I mentioned divorce (rather than just an agreement for the house). Granted, he still got back to me within 24 hours, but it’s possible he was down for the count initially.

But I will never know. The fog is still thick and, unfortunately, this divorce will take longer than I had originally expected. I’d love to be done but I can’t accept the crumbs being offered.

I’ve been reading more Hearts Blessing articles and am trying to follow her guidance. Stay true with faith, align with my Self, and stay calm. I came to terms this morning that he’s convinced all our (then) local mutuals of his story of us. I’m reminding myself that there is nothing I can do about that. The fact that he believes he’s been so incredibly unhappy with me for our entire marriage- I can’t do anything about that. But I can focus on my next steps to detach further. I can work on being steady, non-reactive, and hand the reigns to my legal representative to limit further contact. I can focus on my part of this journey, which is finding me again. Let him continue to spiral in his pit of despair and fake happiness for however long he chooses to stay there. He’s trying to suck me down with him- I won’t let him. But, firetruck, does it hurt.

[Tailspin]

I’ve been reading more Hearts Blessing articles and trying follow her guidance. Stay true with faith, align with my Self, and stay calm. I came to terms this morning that he’s convinced all our (then) local mutuals of his story of us. I’m reminding myself that there is nothing I can do about that. The fact that he believes he’s been so incredibly unhappy with me for our entire marriage- I can’t do anything about that. But I can focus on my next steps to detach further. I can work on being steady, non-reactive, and hand the reigns to my legal representative to limit further contact. I can focus on my part of this journey, which is finding me again. Let him continue to spiral in his pit of despair and fake happiness for however long he chooses to stay there. He’s trying to suck me down with him- I won’t let him. But, firetruck, does it hurt.

This is the mentality that has helped me.  Hearts Blessing drove home that you can only control yourself.  That seems to be the hardest lesson we learn on this journey.  I had a really hard time adjusting to that.  I failed so many times before I got better.
You sound like you're getting stronger in all this.  Keep it up!!! 

[Flummoxed]

Thank you so much, Tailspin!! I’ve been rereading her pieces trying to commit them to memory. Truly, letting go does seem like the biggest piece in all this. Hand off to a higher power, to the universe, to God, and just live each day- thank you for sharing it took you a while as well to get to where you find yourself at today. It gives hope that someday I too will be able to accept. Though I can’t imagine being so zen about all this with this divorce chaos going on, I guess it’s just a matter of practice and no longer communicating directly that will make all the difference. No idea how you’ve kept this up while in the same house!

A little quote I’m finding helpful today (translated):
“The strength of a thousand is not as powerful as the strength of one with faith.”  -Bhishma, Mahabharata

[Flummoxed]

Journaling:
Just documenting a couple of quotes that helped me out today for quick reference:

There is always a tightrope to walk when dealing with midlife spouse–because one needs to take care of Self first, before worrying about any real or perceived losses that might occur. You cannot control anyone, but yourself, your actions, and your reactions, so you learn to detach from their heartache, distance from their drama, and let them fall on their face. The only help you can give them is to pray for them, and let God have them to work with.

Remember that hurting people really do tend to hurt people. When someone doesn’t feel good about themselves, they’re not going to do or say anything good toward someone else. The old saying, “You hurt the ones you love the most,” is a most apt analogy in this situation. Remember that the midlife spouse’s problems are not about you. You didn’t break them, therefore, it’s not your responsibility to fix them. Do your best to look beyond the bad behavior to see that hurting person, as you learn to separate the behavior from that person. Bad behavior, in any context, is only a symptom of extremely painful emotional issues within that hurting person.
- Hearts Blessing

Human beings are like legos- just because you are in pieces, does that mean you are broken? NO. You just sometimes have to disassemble and put all the parts back right again- and that takes time, perseverance, and a ton of patience.
- Terry Crews

[Flummoxed]

Hello All,

I have a quick question for the team: is it a generally shared experience for the MLCer to show increased confusion as they go deeper into the experience? I ask because there seem to have been more lucid moments within months of BD1, but since then, the confusion and anger have considerably increased. I’ve seen many references to things getting worse with time, that things get worse before they get better (eventually), but I wasn’t sure if this facet was included in that somewhat vague and ominous phrasing.

I understand there’s nothing I can do about it- I’m more so wrapping my head around the new “normal”. While also working on addressing my armoring to heal from CPTSD. It really is kind of hilarious if you think about it.

[xyzcf]

In our story, the first year after BD, there were many many times, I called "flipping" where he'd say something and then a few days later deny he had said that...we were living in different countries and there were 5 times I was supposed to rejoin him...after a year, he shut down completely and we became legally separated for I realized I needed to protect myself financially.

I think what you are asking is pretty common. Their crisis is a long road and you will not know when they are through until you look back and see significant changes. The length of time this can take is really difficult to think about.

Keep focusing on your growth and well being.....find the moments when you can set aside what has happened and allow your brain and heart to heal.

[Biscuit]

I noticed a great deal of ‘flipping’ as XY puts it in the first 6 months. Then a year of steadfast surety that what she was doing was the right path. This transitioned into the last year of flipping and confusion again.