[Which of these do you believe was the main factor triggering your spouse's MLC?]

Which of these do you believe was the main factor triggering your spouse's MLC?

Stress and/ or burnout

12 (25%)

Medication

1 (2.1%)

Dealing with childhood issues

10 (20.8%)

Hormonal changes

3 (6.3%)

Depression

8 (16.7%)

Neurological changes, unrelated to anything outside

1 (2.1%)

Underlying personality disorder,

7 (14.6%)

Social fears (aging, mortality, children leaving, etc.)

2 (4.2%)

Genetics

0 (0%)

External factors (work, OW, etc.)

1 (2.1%)

None of these (please add a note) Death of his mother

3 (6.3%)

Total Members Voted: 48

Voting closed: August 20, 2016, 03:03:33 PM

[Anjae]

Mermaid, if the poll is set for two weeks, I'll make a note and will not archive the thread before
it, unless it reaches 150 posts. If it reaches 150 posts, start a new one, use the same title but
put a 2 or a II ahead of it, and repeat/do a new poll. That way you will not lose the poll, and
the thread will not pass 150 posts. If a second thread with poll is started, let me know for how
long have you set the poll. Thank you.

I voted for stress/burnout. It was present before the depression. The stress and anxiety were
aggravated with the death of Mr J's paternal grandmother early Summer 2005, growing responsibilities at work, the expansion of our joint project and our plan to readjust our life in
order to have children. I think together it all become too much, his stress levels keep rising,
then, at some point, the depression hit.

By March, or April, 2006 Mr J said he was depressed. He said the same a couple of months later, when he left, a couple of months after he left and in May 2007, after I had returned home. He never mentioned it again.

The original OW was not something that I consider a relevant factor. Without the tress/burnout
and the depression she would had never existed. Of course she made things much worst, but she is just a symptom.

With my cousin, it was also stress first, then depression followed. My cousin was a wallower, he never had OW. Just fantasized about it at times.

I consider it a neurological issue because both stress and depression are neurological issues,
they impact the brain (and body, since the brain controls many functions in the body). Stress and depression are of the real of neuroscience/neurological. Depression, of course, is also of the realm of psychiatry. But, for me, psychiatry aims for the symptoms, not the causes/roots,
internal mechanisms. Nothing wrong in aiming for the symptoms, it is better that not to aim at anything, but my view is that psychiatry is often a little out of step with the times. In essence, they need to integrated neuroscience/neurobiology/biology more. Some psychiatrists or psychiatric hospitals already work that way, but still isn't the norm. I think,, in time, it will become more common.

There were some childhood issues with Mr J, but nothing that bad/serious. There were not childhood issues in my cousin's case. Adolescence, yes, from around 15 or 16. Like myself, by cousin grew up in a loving family.

Mr J is like Trustandlove's husband, he continues to look for external solutions to internal problems. For all I know, Mr J also won't see himself. Mr J knows that if stops the crazy MLC life
he will be thinking about it all. He himself had said so on occasions, therefore, at times, he has
some awareness that the issues are internal and that he has to face them. He just keeps running and running. 

[in it]

NPD magnified by MLC.

[MourningDove]

I replied none, only because in my H case he is in the "chicken or egg" category.
Looking back to BD #1 - announcing he was going to move out and start going out every Friday night nearly 2 years ago he had lost a dear friend 6 months before to a heart attack. The friend was 50. This was the first stressor, followed by being unhappy with his work. His father lived with us for 6 months out of the year and this brought out FOO issues that never were resolved.
So in the chronological version of my H's MLC it looks something like this:
Friend dies - stress/depression
Father living with us - FOO
Father was sick - illness back - terminal - more FOO
Our kids are at age when FIL left and divorced when H was a kid. -FOO & social fears
Stress and burnout from work and finances take a dive. Loses clients
Hates his career
Nearing his 50th birthday - social fears
Notice severe hormonal changes - hair falling out, pain in his joints and can't sleep.
Depression (he denies this)
Genetics - changes in body
FIL starts to live vicariously through H and encourages bad behaviors - spending, going out, etc. (External factors & FOO)
OW enters picture.
BD #2 - EA/PA
Brief reconciliation - depression still present, but seems better.
Second financial hit (expected and thought things were going to be okay)
FIL's health is failing, BIL (eldest) has heart attack and BIL #5 has pickled himself after years of drinking. H realizes BIL #5 with his addiction to alcohol has no moral fiber and his addiction drives his brother to do unthinkable things. (Took his mother for all of her money years ago, has done the same to FIL)
Detaches from our kids and moves out.
Has new friends and OW is just his "friend" - doesn't see she is manipulating him.
H is burned out, yet has become impulsive in his depressed state.

I don't know if it is just one thing in my H case - I suspect the initial catalyst was having to deal with his own mortality. Ironically, if he had looked at his friend's life closely, he would have realized his friend was living the life my H is trying to live now. Most of us saw his friend was not happy underneath it all and if he could speak from the grave he would be slapping my H silly - saying "Mate, you have all you need right in front of you - don't blow it like I did".

[Roma]

I absolutely without a doubt 'believe' in MLC. I voted childhood issues or could be any type of FOO issues yet my H keeps everything so hidden, I don't KNOW the truth. Only he does, and it would be impossible for me to get that out of him, especially now.

In my observation of him and what others say in this forum I highly doubt any type of neurological, permanent mental illness or  any type of physical issues are involved.

Too many people describing almost identical strange behavior/events, including almost identical words they say for it not to be true to me. 

Yet that is only my opinion.

My H did say that after his father passed he fell into a deep depression. Hence that is when the MLC started or was triggered.

[Trustandlove]

I will add fear of mortality to my vote, at least on this post.  I know my H was horrified at turning 30, let alone 40 or 50.  The earlier years of this crisis were pretty classic -- doing all sorts of things that he was literally afraid he'd miss doing and suddenly he'd be 80 and it would be too late -- but mostly things that would be considered illegal or immoral.  He still wants to be seen as "getting down with the kids"; his worst insult to someone is that they are "boring", much like a teenager.

But somehow he blames me for it all; he feels entitled to everything he wants, and somehow I have denied it to him, whether it was with family obligations before he left, or by not playing into his idea of what post-leaving life would be now. 

[Jaybeecee]

I believe stress also.  H never knew how to handle stress in a healthy way.  The stress of his job, his golf game (major hobby), his coaching football, and his marriage growing apart all at once led him to handle it by finding OW.

 OW sympathized with his stresses.  Then having the affair with OW led to the depression,  since now he had turned his life completely upside down.   This created more stress and thus the cycle continues.

[Ready2Transform]

Not sure if this has been posted anywhere on the threads, yet, but it's a good one that covers all of the bases:

The Spellbinding Bond to Narcissists and Psychopaths – What’s Happening in the Brain?
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/the-spellbinding-bond-to-narcissists-and-psychopaths_us_57a4dbabe4b034b25894cc80

[Mermaid]

I wish we had like buttons!!!

This is even more interesting than I thought it would be. Thanks everyone. I know it's hard to choose one issue, because in most cases there is more than one thing. Like PD, which might be marginal, then something happens.

Thanks Anjae. Let's see how this goes. If it's still going strong close to 20 Aug, is it possible to extend the end date?

[Anjae]

You're welcome, Mermaid.

If it's still going strong close to 20 Aug, is it possible to extend the end date?

It is. Doing it on the 19th or 19th may be best. Please remind me to do so. 

Interesting articles, Ready2.

I think some of it could be applied to MLCers. They have dopamine, oxytocin and endogenous opiates levels out of balance. They have cortisol (stress), serotonin and adrenaline levels out of balance. They have I don't know how many other levels out of balance.

It is impossible to think straight, even because as in the case of victims of abuse, the brain will not allow for it, to think straight under the crazy cocktail MLCers are under.

Osb had been explaining a few things about it, and talking how she could see some behaviours in her husband, who was always needing to run to his fix.

"This combination of neurochemistry (along with endogenous opioids) can create an addictive attachment that is difficult to break." Or a powerful addiction in the case of MLCers to they Replay activities and/or OW/OM.

"Having reactions of craving, dependence and withdrawal can occur even if the victim is aware that logically the partner is a poor or dangerous mate.

Therefore, the decision to ‘stay’ is not really a decision at all. Rather it is an addictive response that brains can have to a relationship of this type."

Replacing victim by MLCer and add activity to partner and it becomes easy to understand the MLCer problem. Or part of it, since I think it is more complex (just like with an abuse victim). The MLCer may even be aware that replay activities and OW/OM are bad for them, but they are not capable or breaking free. They are addicted to them.

Withdrawal is a terrible, difficult place to be. The MLCer does not want to go there. Some taste a little of it, and quickly run to a new fix, in order to keep supplying the addiction.

How much of the MLCers behaviour is a choice and how much is providing for the all controlling addiction? I don't know, but addiction of whatever type is hard to break. And its withdrawal a dark, cold, unfriendly place.

[Mermaid]

I think some of it could be applied to MLCers. They have dopamine, oxytocin and endogenous opiates levels out of balance. They have cortisol (stress), serotonin and adrenaline levels out of balance. They have I don't know how many other levels out of balance.

It is impossible to think straight, even because as in the case of victims of abuse, the brain will not allow for it, to think straight under the crazy cocktail MLCers are under.

Osb had been explaining a few things about it, and talking how she could see some behaviours in her husband, who was always needing to run to his fix.

"This combination of neurochemistry (along with endogenous opioids) can create an addictive attachment that is difficult to break." Or a powerful addiction in the case of MLCers to they Replay activities and/or OW/OM.

How much of the MLCers behaviour is a choice and how much is providing for the all controlling addiction? I don't know, but addiction of whatever type is hard to break. And its withdrawal a dark, cold, unfriendly place.

It's interesting to look at the effect of brain chemistry on behaviour, and also to consider choice. Addictions (of any type) are always more than the substance. Choices and perceptions affect them too (when psychologists want to help break addictions, they have to remove stimuli, including social ones, but the person has to want to change, and realise it's necessary).

On the other hand, behaviour is always more than conscious choices. We all think we are making conscious choices, but we are not, up to 95% of the time. Most choices are deeply unconscious. Likewise with our MLCer.

I also doubt that there is a neurological addiction without having a learned response first. For example, my H was "hooked" on his EA with OW, but she was also his narcissistic pair, mirroring his likes and dislikes. There may have been a physical attraction too. But without his initial learned response to life, through somewhat narcissistic self-protection, this probably wouldn't have happened.

The euphoria of love is limited, neurologically, and burns out. Some people really do get hooked on the feelings of love, and when it burns out, look to renew the experience. But what type of person does that? Not everyone, for sure. But certainly some of those MLCers do, and they have serial affairs looking for this feeling, which then fades. A cold, dark unfriendly place indeed.

But they can take responsibility for their feelings, which requires facing up to them. The most successful people at overcoming addictions of any sort are those with broader emotional resources.

Talking of addictions. When I started spying on my Hs emails, I got totally addicted to that. Before I looked at them, my heart rate would rise and my breathing got shallower. I could feel my addiction. I eventually stopped, but it was hard.