[HeyJude]

I've been reading I Don't Want to Talk About It by Terrence Real and reading an article from his website - here is an excerpt:

“The common name for appropriate shame,” I tell Peter, “is remorse. You can tell the difference. When someone moves out of shamelessness and grandiosity into toxic shame, they feel like big $h!tes. And in a funny way one form of self-preoccupation just replaces another. You know: ‘Don’t bother me; I’m too busy feeling like hell about what I just did to you.’ Real remorse doesn’t pull you in like toxic shame does. When you feel remorseful, your attention is on the people you hurt and their feelings. You’re moved to do whatever you can to make amends, to repair things. Can you feel the difference?”

Here's the article http://www.terryreal.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/The-Awful-Truth1.pdf

I know we've covered this a bit, but thought some folk might like the article/book/website reference..many here have referred to Terrence Real..he writes with lots of examples of situations he comes across as a therapist, which i appreciate..

[NoRegrets]

Thanks, Hey Jude!

That's really good. I tried to finish that book, then picked up another one and another one...  But it's a good book!

[Stillpraying]

Thanks Hey Jude.
I am trying to read the article while I'm on my lunch break at work.  Sneaking in some more as I'm glued to it.
One of the major items H was leaving me about was stepping in when he was 'disciplining' the kids.  It was so refreshing to read about this aspect and that it is OK as a mum to step in when you feel your child may be abused.  Did I also get it wrong sometimes?  Yes, SURE! but I like that Terrance states it's better to get it wrong and step in, than to not step in when I should have.

Sp

[kikki]

Hey Jude
Thanks for posting that.  I got that book out of the library with a large pile of other books (have no idea what I was thinking at the time).  I read about a quarter of it, and then skimmed the rest.
It is an amazing book, and I think his work in recognising covert depression deserves him a medal.  A man ahead of his time.
I think I'll need to get it out again and read it front to back this time.

[stayed]

Thanks for posting that Hey Jude!  That was incredible reading.  I really must get and read all his books. 

hugs Stayed

[kikki]

Just read that article Jude - he's an amazing therapist. 
Shame vs Grandiosity - think we are dealing with a whole heap of grandiosity in our MLCers. 

[stayed]

MY thoughts exactly Kikki.  Funny I always thought of it as an over inflated sense of ENTITLEMENT!  He sure put his finger on the crux of the problem though eh... when I messed up, I couldn't do enough to try and put it right.  To reassure whomever I had offended that I didn't mean it and please, please let me make it up to you.  Just name it. 

My h NEVER did that, the most he would do would bring home flowers or do something nice for you, but he never acknowledged that he knew he had hurt your feelings.  Saying sorry and being truly remorseful was something he did not do well.  This has changed since The Crisis (TC), although, it still does not happen quickly.  He will react, go away or simply refuse to discuss it, then later in the day, sometimes even the next day, express real remorse.  Quite an improvement.  Mind you, he will never  "grovel" like I would/will!

 My mother used to say things like, "you wouldn't have said it, even in anger, if you didn't mean".  I grew up thinking this was a truth.  It took me a long time to realize that that was not true.  In fact, people say mean things ALL THE TIME, just because they are angry.  In so many ways, punching or hitting  with a stick would have been more humane then the horrible things that have come out of the mouths of loved ones.  Of course, I have done the same.

I must confess, I would love to do a few sessions with this guy.. hehehe! 

hugs, Stayed   

 

[What Next]

HeyJude,

Just wanted to thank you for posting the link to Terence Real's article, it was excellent.  I continue to be amazed at how little I know about myself and H; it takes reading an annonymous case history for me to see our relationship in true colour. 

Only hope his work gets more mainstream, what a revolution that would be!

[Anjae]

HeyJude, thanks for the excelebt article.

Kikki, yes, I think we're dealing with shame vs  grandiosity.

Stayed, when I mess up I just let it go. We all mess up, we all blow once or twice. Having lots of siblings makes you not to give much importance to a little mess up or anger in the heat of the moment. I just walk way, let it all calm day. Next day is all over. Besides, people know when we messed up, we know when they have messed up (I'm not talking about MLC messing up, just regular messing up).

For a long time my husband would go for a walk, or leave on fire (when we were still dating and living with our parents) and return the next day when he had calmed down. Flowers were always as a gift, never has an apology. Was so used to my husband that I didn't even knew flowers were used as an apology.  Silly me. Mine was good aknoledge he had hurt my feelings. I'm the one who isn't good doing it.

We say a lot of things in anger we don't mean and wouldn't say otherwise.

[Gallagher]

Why is it that the MLC'ers can't get to remorse as quickly, if ever when they decide to come back?  I've had three different counselors tell me that in regular old affairs the H's are usually on their knees begging to come back and willing to do anything.  Is it the whole dynamic of MLC?  The depression?  Do they feel more justified since we made them miserable and they didn't love us any more?  Are they in general more out of touch emotionally then non  MLC'ers?

And what if you're in R in the MLC'er doesn't get to remorse?  Should the LBS'er question the validity of the R? Can R even happen without remorse?