[BirdSoul]

Today is 24 mos post-BD. I feel a much wiser but very much a sadder person.

At first, I truly believed Standing would offer my H the space and security he needed to do his own healing and come back. I felt it would also offer me peace and healing, which it has. But I felt then our bond was very deep and could never really be broken and that he really still did love me. Now I think I was terribly naive. I no longer believe he has the capacity to truly love me or to come back. He is a vanisher and has not seen or spoken with me since shortly after BD. He rushed to go public with OW as I was sitting home alone with my hope, divorce me and move in with her, the two of them moving to another city to get as far away from his life with me as possible.

RCR said: Or has MLC been like taking a zoom feature to all of their poor coping skills and issues that were active before MLC? In my case, yes!

My mother and I were discussing my ex. My parents always loved him, but my mother said that something in him has always been broken, and it was going to come out at some point, and in a bad way. Better now than 10 years from now. He is very, very broken and very, very dependent on an extremely willing OW (this I know from SIL). While I think she has emotional issues, she is without the overt drama and baggage of her own broken marriage and children that might cause my ex to examine things and grow up sooner. They are like two peas in a pod, (seemingly) happy as can be with one another. I don't see a time when he will not consider me the problem and her the solution.

I feel as though I'm not exactly NOT Standing, but I'm not exactly Standing either. There's not much left to stand for. We are divorced (I couldn't prevent it), absolutely NO contact, no children, nothing to tie us together in even the casual (if painful) ways that leaves the door open to hope for so many here.  Standing for me now is really just a "pause" before truly moving on without H. Do I still love him? I think I love the person he tried to be with me for 15 years. I don't know the real him. He hid himself from me. He'd have to be SO different, so open, so willing, so full of self-awareness to make a reconciliation work. I don't think he has it in him to face his own pain and mine. He'd rather run away. Even if it's forever.

BirdSoul

[Anjae]

Your drive to create a healthy, happy life is a sign of a healthy brain and thought process.  We all have that when we're healthy.  Even in contentment, we want to make plans and move forward toward something. 

True. But our MLCers also want to create something and move forward. 

If they fuly "recover" most likey they will not want the rubish life. But what if you don't see any reason to "recover"/come out of the tunnel? Think Mr J, why would he recover? He has no incentive to get out of the tunnel. Current life is all he has.

Yes, they felt compelled. I have enough proof of that on Mr J letters to OW1 and in several things he told me early on his Replay mode.

Stuck for sure = not fully cooked.  Needing treatment is another possible thing but they don't think they have a problem so they will not look for help. And, remember, their close social circle sees nothing wrong with them.

Conenction either work or don't work but how long does it take for them to fully stop working? Is it sudden? Does it take a time period, during which the funcioning decreases until it stops?... If it take a while for the connections to fully stop (and I've learned everything in the brain has timmings, from micro to normal), that can explain why they take some time until the "sudden" change. For a while MLCers are intermitent.

Or there can be a decrease of serotonin. Certain drugs, Ecstasy, for exemple, deplects serotonin. Some behaviours several MLCers have can erode all their serotonin.

I think we kind of undertsand it, Ready2.  We just don't manage to convice the MLCers they need help. And since we understand it and think there is a scientific basis for it, therefore it is mitigable, we become really upset with the whole thing. 

Please take a look at my post (on my thread), where I'm trying the idea of the Thoery of Everything to MLC and tell me what you think. 

Do I still love him? I think I love the person he tried to be with me for 15 years. I don't know the real him. He hid himself from me. He'd have to be SO different, so open, so willing, so full of self-awareness to make a reconciliation work. I don't think he has it in him to face his own pain and mine. He'd rather run away. Even if it's forever.

BirdSoul, you knew your real husband. MLC person is not your real husband. Right now your husband is not capable of being the man he was. I know you're hurt but 24 (2 years), like RCR says, is just the end of the beggining in MLC.

You do not have to reconcile with your husband when he come out of his crisis if you don't want to. The choice of what to do with the rest of your life is yours.

Now the most important thing is that you look after yourself. Hugs, A.

[Rollercoasterider]

I think this first post is similar to articles on the main site.

The first part is not meant to be the start of the post, but an overview. So I repeated my definition of a Stander along with an explanation what it means to live as though you are married.

I have a problem with this (always had since I first read it): "my reality was that Sweetheart was choosing to cheat and leave." If an MLCer is choosing to leave, cheat, mistreat the spouse then, to me, it contradicts the urge/compulsion (to abandon, to run, etc).
The urge/compulsion to me is similar to the one in drug addicts/alcoholics. It is not a case of choice but of not be able to stop it. If MLCers are choosing, and totally aware of their choice, then, well, to me it makes no sense to have compassion or stand for them.
I think they are not fully aware of what they’re doing but that may be me trying to smooth the whole thing…

AnneJ, my thinking is that they are choosing to do what they are doing, but they are making those choices within a newly warped and distorted perception.
Kind of makes sense to them at the time, but underneath it all, they know it's wrong.  Personally, I believe the brain function is affected which changes their personality, morality and impulsivity.  Sadly, this affects their decision making, what they perceive is acceptable, and their lack of empathy towards others regarding the devastation this causes.

From what I have read, RCR believes that there is altered perception, but possibly believes it is because of the psychology of Jungian theory, developmental theory etc, as written in the articles???

You actually gave an excellent answer to how I see things—choosing with a warped perception. But it's not one or the other--Psychological or Biological. But I think the common argument against MLC--as disease--is valid. There are so many variables and so many other things it could be and MidLC would not be an appropriate diagnostic term because as so many point out, it is not limited to those specific years even if it's frequency is greater. I also am concerned about how we pathologize things so often. I'm ADD/ADHD. But I don’t see that as something wrong with me, it's just a a different way of being. I think that in many situations it would be an evolutionary advantage—but not if everyone were that way. Just like it would not be advantageous for everyone to be a leader or a follower or too have too many cooks in the kitchen.
I think that the midlife transition is a normal part of development, but it can go awry—and um, MLC is awry. Understatement! But even then, that is what it takes for some people to get through and take those hurdles. I think that many cases of MLC are probably founded on some sort of mental disease, but not all are and there could be a variety of mental diseases that enable an MLC.
AnneJ,
But regarding urge or compulsion versus choice. To me it's just not a contradiction because I still see giving in to an urge as a choice. An alcoholic has a choice not to drink—that doesn’t mean it's easy to resist. The difference may be someone with say Parkinson's where they have uncontrollable body movements. They cannot willpower those away.
And in another view, suppose an urge really does mean he has no choice… But from my perspective the reality of my situation was the same—Sweetheart was leaving/had left me and was having an affair—choice or urge the result is the same.

I like both RCR and HB writings. They help me to have other perspectives on the matter. I’m all for the biological cause, their views add the emotional and psychological level that I’m not so good with.

This is one of those ironies. My background is Biology, not Psychology! I've only had one Psychology class and that was when I was a Junior in High School. As for Biology, well I was a Bio major--and I preferred Molecular and Biochemistry and lab stuff over field work.
But it is interesting, I studied one, but my natural skills seem to be in understanding the other.
My Jungian interests came through my writing which was traditional tales.

Some people remain on drugs/alcohol until they die, some for 20 or more years. But I think nearly all MLCers get out of the tunnel. What I think may also happen is, once out of the tunnel, liminality gone, no LBS, lots of damage to cope with, former MLCer will go, not really into the tunnel again but back to something that keeps them from facing reality.
In such case it will no longer be MLC (replay behaviour will most certainly be gone) but only a depressed person/person with no objective.

This is one of those sticky issues. I struggled with it a lot in my early days when Sweetheart was in MLC and I was advising others at the same time. I have this concern that for some, if the LBS stops Standing and basically gives up on the MLCer—stops having faith in the core person—that could devastate the MLCer and keep them in MLC. But the way you have put it may be better, because it may not be that they become stuck in MLC, but they still may not recover and may return to or remain in a state of damage and depression.
The struggle is that I don't want LBSs to think it will be there fault if they stop Standing and this happens. I don’t want them to think it is their responsibility to save their MLCer.

[kikki]

Nice to hear your thoughts RCR.
It's always a little weird 'talking' for you from what we perceive from the articles. 

I think the common argument against MLC--as disease--is valid. There are so many variables and so many other things it could be and MidLC would not be an appropriate diagnostic term because as so many point out, it is not limited to those specific years even if it's frequency is greater.

Yes, there do seem to be tremendous variables, but also 'the script' is enormously similar.  That is the confusing part.

I think that the midlife transition is a normal part of development, but it can go awry—and um, MLC is awry. Understatement! But even then, that is what it takes for some people to get through and take those hurdles. I think that many cases of MLC are probably founded on some sort of mental disease, but not all are and there could be a variety of mental diseases that enable an MLC.

That sure is an understatement 
Personally, I think I feel so strongly about this angle because I saw two psychotic episodes near BD from my H, and an extremely high level of anxiety for months (and I do mean extreme).  He also has admitted to having had some sort of 'breakdown' or mental collapse. 
I know this is not the case for all MLCers.   

Like all things, I have to wonder if he always sat slightly on the manic side of the spectrum, and MLC has exacerbated this to the power of 100.

But regarding urge or compulsion versus choice. To me it's just not a contradiction because I still see giving in to an urge as a choice. An alcoholic has a choice not to drink—that doesn’t mean it's easy to resist. The difference may be someone with say Parkinson's where they have uncontrollable body movements. They cannot willpower those away.

My H said that he thought he would die if he didn't leave.  Even though I see that as a choice, he probably sees it as survival.

[Mitzpah]

But regarding urge or compulsion versus choice. To me it's just not a contradiction because I still see giving in to an urge as a choice. An alcoholic has a choice not to drink—that doesn’t mean it's easy to resist. The difference may be someone with say Parkinson's where they have uncontrollable body movements. They cannot willpower those away.

My H said that he thought he would die if he didn't leave.  Even though I see that as a choice, he probably sees it as survival.

I would like to comment on this - I agree with the urge being a choice - but, as most of you know, I deal with a   cutter (my d17) and in one of her most recent episodes she posted this on twitter:
- I force something I shouldn't and I feel more pain... that is what it is
- ooops, I did it again, and I cry
Then a friend posts her a sad face 
- man, $hit, I hate feeling so bad, I hate doing these things, but it is all impulse, and then I f*@k myself
- this hurts
then she posts lyrics from a song that says 'it is as if you are pouring salt into my wounds, I am imprisoned here, I will make you bleed just like me'

You may say she has a choice to not harm herself but she always expresses it as not having a choice, that it is an impulse(urge) that she has to give in to - it is because she feels numb, so she has to inflict pain in order to feel...

I think our MLCers go through something similar.

The advice to parents who have cutters is to love them and accept them, avoid confrontation, avoid 'telling' them to stop, never 'beg and plead'  - interesting... also we are to validate them (recognize that what they feel is real to them) and help them believe in themselves and their self worth. Just what we LBS's attempt to do with our MLCers.

I am waiting, watching and praying for my d to 'wake up' to the fact that she does not have to self harm, that she has a choice and that she can make the right choice, she does not have to give in to the urges.
 I apologize if this is TMI, but I felt that it threw light on to how 'powerful' these urges are. It is definitely not easy to resist, in fact, it is a question of 'survival' in their minds.

[Rollercoasterider]

But regarding urge or compulsion versus choice. To me it's just not a contradiction because I still see giving in to an urge as a choice. An alcoholic has a choice not to drink—that doesn’t mean it's easy to resist. The difference may be someone with say Parkinson's where they have uncontrollable body movements. They cannot willpower those away.

My H said that he thought he would die if he didn't leave.  Even though I see that as a choice, he probably sees it as survival.

I would like to comment on this - I agree with the urge being a choice - but, as most of you know, I deal with a   cutter (my d17) and in one of her most recent episodes she posted this on twitter:
- I force something I shouldn't and I feel more pain... that is what it is
- ooops, I did it again, and I cry
Then a friend posts her a sad face 
- man, $hit, I hate feeling so bad, I hate doing these things, but it is all impulse, and then I f*@k myself
- this hurts
then she posts lyrics from a song that says 'it is as if you are pouring salt into my wounds, I am imprisoned here, I will make you bleed just like me'
You may say she has a choice to not harm herself but she always expresses it as not having a choice, that it is an impulse(urge) that she has to give in to - it is because she feels numb, so she has to inflict pain in order to feel...
I think our MLCers go through something similar.
The advice to parents who have cutters is to love them and accept them, avoid confrontation, avoid 'telling' them to stop, never 'beg and plead'  - interesting... also we are to validate them (recognize that what they feel is real to them) and help them believe in themselves and their self worth. Just what we LBS's attempt to do with our MLCers.

I think this as an excellent example that demonstrates what I mean. Sure the MLCer feels it's about survival and in a way it is--life as they know it is ending; they just do not usually grasp that they are leaping into something worse and the even scarier part for some is that at times they do have that awareness and that is sometimes what causes the cycling. Sweetheart would feel stuck because he'd already leapt. Eventually he'd take action to undo the leap and then within hours or a day he'd want to leap again, but having undone it so soon, he would realize that it was he and not me who was unstable. This was scary for him because he saw himself literally going crazy.
One time he said he changed his mind (about where to be) 50 times in the last hour.

I apologize if this is TMI, but I felt that it threw light on to how 'powerful' these urges are. It is definitely not easy to resist, in fact, it is a question of 'survival' in their minds.

It's only TMI if it's something you didn't want to share. I agree that it is a powerful light on the idea of urges

[kikki]

Thanks Mitzpah, that is enormously helpful.  Incredibly interesting that the advice is the same.  It is so tempting to want to keep telling our MLCers that what they are doing is wrong.
I too hope your daughter 'wakes up' soon.

[stayed]

Quote from: Mitzpah on Today at 06:04:59 AM

    I apologize if this is TMI, but I felt that it threw light on to how 'powerful' these urges are. It is definitely not easy to resist, in fact, it is a question of 'survival' in their minds.

It's only TMI if it's something you didn't want to share. I agree that it is a powerful light on the idea of urges[

VERY POWERFUL!

HUGS

[Ready2Transform]

Thank you so much for sharing that, Mitzpah.  Even believing in this as a process they "need" to go through, your insight has further shifted my thinking (and compassion) on it. 

Prayers going up for your daughter, too.  {{{hugs}}}

[starrett]

I will be 24 months since BD in march,, I have been NC with MY w since April , she filled papers to divorce, I am againest this divorce, and I am not helping her to speed the process up,, I am standing and have been standing,, butI am also using this standing to work on me, to get my life back, to get back in shape mentally, physically, and money .


My w who she is now, I cannot stand , I love  her, but I do not know who she is,, it is like the movie peter pan with robin williams, when the little bot looks in his eyes and he cannot see peter, because he is so far  inside , the true Peter  cannot come out.

 I will wait on her,, and I know the road will be long, all I got is time