[kikki]

This was a technique I learnt to use with my seriously clingy clinger, but coupled with a very monstery monsterer. Not a fun combo.

He was prone to phoning me and suddenly start raging at me mid MLC monologue.  I learnt that with him (clinger), abandonment was at the forefront of everything - so I learnt to reassure him first and then warn him second, and take action thirdly.

'Please do not yell at me. I am here when you are able to speak calmly to me.'

'If you do not stop yelling at me, I am going to put the phone down'

And then without pausing for breath, put the phone down.

I think I only had to do it three times, before he got the picture that I meant business. 
Works in person too.  Say the words and walk away.

After the first monstery months, he has only tried to yell at me twice in recent years - both times, I say the first line, and he quickly calms down and apologises to me.

And yes - sadly it does feel like you are trying to wrangle a three year old.

[Anjae]

I got your point. Only simple things will do to shut a MLCer. For me it would be, “I need time to get used to it” (early on, when I was still around and Mr J was full force about divorce), “I need to think about it” (for whatever madness suggested), or “No now, I’m tired” or “I need to go now”. A few times, when I was still in the capital I said “Please leave, I need peace”. He left.

For me it all become very simple because I do not directly deal with a MLCer and I only talk to him if I want to/need to. Since I don’t want to talk to him, it is only when absolutely needed. I don’t need to stop him dead on his tracks.

In It, not immediately. And some of us cannot go NC, we have kids or business with the MLCer. And early for some of us NC is not good, we get too nervous or anxious. Later, depending of the situation, NC may be the right thing.

[LearningIamOk]

Kikki, that is exactly what I am looking for. It got you back in control of the situation.

Anjae, you also were able to shut Mr J down and get him to back away. Perfect.

InIt, NC is a great healing tool for the LBS. It keeps you from having to shut them down because there is no interaction.

[Anjae]

Mr J did not back away that easily. But it worked on the moment. At a point I went NC. It is a bliss not to have to exchange dialogue with him. Since he is a vanisher I also do not have to see him. Of course early on I was not thrilled with not speaking or seeing him.

[in it]

I guess it just depends on what level of crazy your dealing with or how much pain you feel you deserve. I've had my fill regardless of whatever his problem is.
I'm not a masochist and they say not to take it personally.

 I understand they are the ones with the problem but when you end up  in the emergency room getting x-rays it's not their problem anymore.

[arbl206]

So, I was wondering if there was any advice to offer on a vanisher MLCer? As far as communication goes? The last I got was an email a little over a week ago (after running into him at a restaurant) stating that he is ready to dissolve our marriage, among other things that are his calm cool collected version of monster. Mind you, my BD was 02/22 of this year..... I am going dark at the moment, for as long as I can. I fear he will try and push legal things through as fast as he can due to the skyrocketing nature of his music career at this point in time, that will be taking him away for gigs for periods of time. There is an alienator that is his "stylist" that I'm sure is pushing this, and he doesn't want to have people (fans) judging him for having her with him places, if he chooses, if he's married. He has already taken her to a gig (paid her way even) that was on the opposite coast and was a big deal gig. People that were there know he's married, and know me, and were not pleased with his choice of travel companion being not me..... Went to my house last Sat to get some things and found a photo copy of a business card for a divorce mediator on our table, folded up and had obviously been in his pocket (meaning someone else gave it to him). I have a consult with a lawyer this Thursday. I am standing, of course, but I know I will have to speak to him eventually. He makes me nervous with his calm demeanor (which used to soothe me pre MLC), so I tend to clam up and forget how to arrange my thoughts. I always pray for God to help me, but the last few times we've spoken, I wasn't expecting to see him and was caught off guard, with not enough time to collect myself.....

[kikki]

Dr George Simon - 'A wolf in sheep's clothing'. 
I know there has been mention of this before on the board, but I spent a bit of time in the weekend reading his blog.  Such an eye opener for those of us who have dealings with our currently narcissistic, character disordered MLCers.

http://www.manipulative-people.com/understanding-manipulation-tactics-part-1/

These manipulative tactics enable a person to engage in a well-crafted whitewash of irresponsible behavior - feigning ignorance, feigning innocence, minimizing, denial, rationalizing, lying, lying by significant omission, scape-goating, projection, silence, stonewalling.

He recommends pointing out the behaviour. 

Most of the time, the disturbed character already “sees” the issues that need attention and correction, but still “disagrees” with the pro-social principles that would make the relationship work.  But before any problem can be dealt with, a person has to do more than see it, they have to “own” it.  If they’re not willing to admit the problem, they’re not likely to be of the mind to be rid of it.

Lying and refusing to accept responsibility is NOT denial.  It’s just lying.  And it’s often an effective tactic of impression management and responsibility avoidance.

I did that yesterday to my MLCer (pointed out his tactics - they usually come in clusters) and it is softening the extreme silence that I have been subjected to in recent months.  (Silence over issues he wants to control, but he still wants to cling around others).  Although he is still denying that he is using any of these tactics. Still deflecting it onto me.

Thought it was a good thing for us all to understand. 

[Anjae]

arbl206, Your husband is not a vanisher. Vanishers do not send emails saying that they are ready to dissolve the marriage. They vanish. One may be server but will not be told about it. No, no advice about how to communicate with him. What would you tell him? Try to talk him out of it? It does not work with MLCers. You can say I'm sorry you feel that one (or something similar) and leave it at it.

Kikki, pointing out the behaviour may make the MLCer to be less monster, but in my experience it will no change anything. Not until they are ready to own their responsibility. The MLCer will deny and deny and deny they are using the tactics they are.

But if they are using tactics, and aware of it, that leaves us with the problem that they know what they are doing. And if they know exactly what they are doing, there really is no excuse whatsoever for their behaviour.

This if often a matter of debate here in the board, is the MLCer fully aware or is it not? How aware, and how capable of stopping their behaviour is an addict? If we see MLC similar to addiction, do we go for they can stop it whenever they want, or for only when they are capable of owning it and deal with the responsibility?

I still don't know which lean for. For me they clearly suffered some hormonal/brain alteration but how much do they carry on with their behaviour simply because they can afford it in every way? Really do not know.

How effective is dialogue with an addict? Zero? Or do some things stick and are latter processed?

[hopeandfaith]

How effective is dialogue with an addict? Zero? Or do some things stick and are latter processed?

I have often heard that 12 step programs designed for addicts are very helpful for those that love them.  I would assume that dialogue would be part of this.  There is probably some very good information in these programs about this and also about detaching lovingly.  I have often thought the MLC'ers behaviour was like that of an addict - which is not to excuse it.  We can learn to understand it which shows us how to create effective boundaries for ourselves and in turn gives them back accountability.

[Anjae]

MLC as similarities with addiction, but my experience with both (with addiction is not from family) is that they don’t listen (they may even promisse that they are going to quit drugs/alcools but they don’t) and only make amends when in rock bottom. The lucky ones. The others end up dead. I’ve know several that died, others spend many, many years sleeping in the street or in drug neighbourhoods, until, usually, they got a death scare serious enough to, somehow, make them really choose to sober up.

In my country drug addicts and alcoholics are “treated” (it is “treated” because they are never cured, they relapse if they use/drink again) in psychiatric hospitals. They have building/wards for those two situations, that are seen as a health issue. There are also some institutions, usually religious ones that use 12 steps programs.

Think here in the board we understand MLC (more or less, since no one really seems to know exactly what it is), but there is no society support form MLCers or LBS. Unlike for addicts (of drugs, gambling, sex, etc.) or alcoholics.

There is also the problem that, at a point, the brain (and other organs) become affected, making it very hard for the person suffering from addiction to be able to give it up. And making it difficult for those MLCers that got into drugs or drinking to leave behind those addictions.

It is tricky to make an addict accountable. They are going to do lots of nasty things to get their drug of choice. They even escape the hospital (and I thing other rehabilitation facilities) to get drugs. And we all know that many are in and out of rehabilitation for years on end.

Communication with a junkie or heavy alcoholic is often impossible. Even a trained psychiatrist has troubles reaching them. Communication is a two way street and there is only one person communicate, the non addict/non MLCer.

Also, with some, the more loving and caring one is with them, the more they abuse and misbehave. Not to mention the ones who become violent.

I don’t see addicts and alcoholics as narcissists (of course narcissists can be drug addicts or alcoholics), their brains/bodies got hocked on substances/things. The MLCer is a little different, they do show lots of narcissist traits and they seem to take a long, long time to suffer the consequences of their behaviour, unlike drug addicts or alcoholics.