[bookwrmmom]

The only sins Hillary should have to answer for are her own. She has enough of them, and they are many.
We were given absolutely awful "choices" and that is the reality. Hillary dug her own grave and her not winning was no ones fault but her own. There were other candidates both democratic and republican who I could have embraced wholeheartedly. Truly ones o n both sides that would have been really awesome choices in comparison.

[MyBrainIsBroken]

Whether these allegations are true or not, is not the issue.   Bill Clinton didn't talk trash about women.  He didn't brag that he could grab them anywhere he wanted.  He didn't call a woman on national TV a nasty woman.

Big difference between Bill and Donald.

How do you decide who to vote for when neither is appealing. Not voting is a bad option but there are so many shades of gray here. Some may see just one issue, such as Trump's negative comments about women, and decide that it's so deplorable they can't vote for that person but many people try to weigh all of the negatives and positives and vote for the best, or least worse, choice. I think some people were uncomfortable enough with Hillary that they felt, in spite of everything, Trump was still the better choice and I think unless you personally know these people who voted for Trump it's bigoted behavior to assume they voted for him because they agree with what he says about women or any other group.

It's true Bill is no Donald and vice versa and it's also true that Bill isn't the candidate, Hillary is. But there are similarities in the comparison between Bill and Donald and Hillary and Donald. We know who and what Donald is because he doesn't try to hide it but we thought Bill was better than that. It turns out that he was just better at hiding it, at least for a while he was. Some people feel the same way about Hillary vs. Donald. We don't know if Hillary is a better person or just better at hiding it but we've seen enough in her situation to feel very uncomfortable about her.

I told my daughter that at least with Donald we know who and what he is so we will know enough to be vigilant. Having said that, I couldn't vote for him. I couldn't picture him with the attitudes he's expressed as a legitimate representative of this country.

Perhaps this is why some people voted for Trump.



Perhaps this is why some people voted for Trump.

[Phoenix]

There are so many interesting posts to respond to. Forgive me for including the points all at once.

MyBrainIsBroken, I didn't have any difficulty finding references to Trump's comments about his daughter. Here is just one of the mentions:
http://www.mediaite.com/online/donald-trump-wont-stop-joking-about-banging-his-daughter/

Generally speaking, in terms of the election, a lot may depend on the media a person is reading/watching/listening to. I am a left leaning progressive. However, I make a point of watching/reading/listening to conservative media as much as liberal media (as well as the news from other countries--particularly how America and our politics are viewed there) to have a broad understanding or what the media is putting out and what people think and why. I also do my own research, review primary source documents, etc.  If we all commit to doing this we would at least understand what others are receiving and thinking a bit better. If anyone who leans slightly or far right would watch MSN, for example as much as I am watching news that may be comparatively challenging to watch, it may clarify why there are protests, fear, etc.

Interestingly, none of the military people I know voted for Trump. I only know a couple dozen closely enough to discuss the election at length, but they've remarked on his "utter lack of knowledge, qualifications, and preparedness" and said they knew he was not the right person for the job when he, "avoided military service," disrespected and harassed a gold star family, disrespected John McCain and insulted him for being a prisoner of war, and "childishly, arrogantly and ridiculously" said he knows more about ISIS than the Generals. Republican, General Colin Powell, also endorsed Clinton. There is grave concern among the military men and women that I have the privilege of knowing and the vast majority are Republicans and have never crossed party lines until now. One of them remarked that, regardless of what Trump actually means or does, the Klan, ISIS and Putin would NOT be celebrating if Clinton was elected, and Putin would never send her a congratulatory telegram.  Another said that even if Trump is an unwitting stooge, who denounces these factions, he and the people he is surrounding himself with, appeal to the worst of our nature. Trump may now try to distance himself, but the fact remains that Clinton--for her imperfections--would never have appealed to any in those groups, and would never have wanted to even if it cost her the election. Another career military friend called Trump a buffoon, a clown, a total embarrassment to our country and said his completely ignorant Rambo comments like, "We'll bomb their asses" is going to get a lot of soldiers killed.

There is likely misinformation out about Trump as there is certainly an absurd amount of misinformation about Clinton, but many are talking about Trump's own actions throughout his campaign and before, that were seen with their own eyes and heard with their own ears. The difference is that some dismiss his behavior and rationalize by saying, "We take him seriously, but not literally." I'm not interested in someone for whom this is a game or manipulation. Trump knew he couldn't win without appealing to an extremist base, so he did and said whatever it took to get them on board and he knew how to do it and could stomach it.

There was an interesting discussion on one of the radio stations on Friday about the people who voted for Trump believing they are the majority and that the rest of America are out of touch. The researchers responding to this point said as they explore this hypothesis further it's appearing to be the opposite. That first, in fact, many of those who voted for Trump seem to be in an insular bubble and have not caught up with where the world is and is going, whether because they are not exposed to it or choose not to be. The majority of the country did not vote for Trump and I am confident the majority does not think like Trump or Pence, who people seems to be forgetting about, but who is ideologically even scarier than Trump. How scary? Read this: http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2016/10/mike-pence-isnt-boring-hes-one-americas-most-extreme-governors

I grew up in the Midwest and my family is still all there. They have been farmers for generations. Yet, none of them supported Trump nor do they believe he is better for America.  You are right, MyBrainIsBroken, people are deciding what their deal breaker issues are and I am grateful to a family who said, "Better to lose money/land than one's soul." Eventually, I hope we figure out that the words, "United we stand. Divided we fall" aren't just hyperbole.

I don't believe this is a matter of everyone who voted for Trump being racist,  mysogynistic, etc., but I do believe there is a deep naivite among some and yes, a cognitive dissonance or denial about his behavior and words. Trump is an opportunist--a win at all costs kind of guy. He willl say and do whatever he needs to to win, to rile up his base, but he wouldn't otherwise give any of them the time of day. Trump grew up in wealth. He's lived his life in decadence. He knows nothing of being working class. He wants the power of the presidency and he knew what he needed to do and say to get there. In the end, the people who are going to be most upset are those who voted for him, because he's not going to follow through on the things his base voted for. Already he is walking back some of his biggest talking points and his infrastructure plan is what Clinton already proposed.

Trump is over his head. He has no military or public office experience. He is now trying to get advisors in place to help him and is choosing such has beens as Gingrich who was reprimanded for ethics violations and had to resign and Guiliani.  Between them, these three men also have 9 wives and a lot of questionable behavior.  So much for not being part of the "establishment" or a "career politician." As for Trump's understanding of economics, one of the financial analyses of his personal economic trajectory illustrated that he would have a lot more money today if he had simply invested the millions his father gave him rather than go into business due to his many poor decisions and financial losses.

I can't comprehend why anyone would vote for a candidate without first seeing his/her taxes and vetting them for business and investment conflicts of interest. It's equally mindboggling that Trump thinks a blind trust means his children can run his business (that is not a blind trust). The fact that he simultaneously names all three of his oldest children to his transition team when they are supposedly running said "blind trust," is most certainly also a conflict of interest. And Republicans were actually the first to take issue with Trump posting links to his hotels and to Melania's QVC jewelry line on at least one official .gov site which is a violation also.

If struggling Americans believe economic help is on the way, the non-partisan Tax Policy Center experts disagree:

"This paper analyzes presidential candidate Donald Trump’s revised tax proposal, which would significantly reduce marginal tax rates, increase standard deduction amounts, repeal personal exemptions, cap itemized deductions, and allow businesses to elect to expense new investment and not deduct interest expense. His proposal would cut taxes at all income levels, although the largest benefits, in dollar and percentage terms, would go to the highest-income households. Federal revenues would fall by $6.2 trillion over the first decade before accounting for added interest costs. Including interest costs, the federal debt would rise by $7.2 trillion over the first decade and by $20.9 trillion by 2036."

This abstract and the full report can be found at: http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/publications/analysis-donald-trumps-revised-tax-plan

To highlight just a few of the concerns reported about his tax plan: the wealthiest Americans would see millions in reduced taxes, while the lowest income familes would receive reduced taxes of only $560 dollars on average, and middle income families will see taxes go up about $2,000, due in large part to Trump's proposed elimination of the $4,000 deduction for each person in a family. Single parents are estimated to get hit the hardest which should be of utmost importance to this forum, particularly when women experience a more significant economic hit in divorces, in the majority of instances, already. Additionally, Trump has proposed to eliminate federal inheritance tax which only benefits 1% of the population which is the portion Trump and many of his friends and big-money financial contributors are a part of.

Trump appears very similar to other autocrats which various parts of the world are now warning the US about. Here is a piece for anyone interested.
http://www2.nybooks.com/daily/s3/nov/10/trump-election-autocracy-rules-for-survival.html

Phoenix

[Thunder]

Great post, as always, Phoenix.   

[elray]

Phoenix,
It is much better to take trump less literally.   He is adept at using persuasive language and posturing, but a literal interpretation will find constant conflicting statements.

You said you inquired on many different media sources, and went on to mention conflicts of interest concerns regarding Trump.  Did you, by chance, catch the documentary Clinton Cash which is credited as being an important primary source starting the FBI Clinton foundation investigation?  It largely focuses on conflicts of interest.

I agree that most People believe globalism is an unstoppable force and those who fight it are resisting an unstoppable future, but the same could be said for global warming.


I personally found his tax Plan very unimaginative and pretty much straight from the Paul Ryan play book.  The one exception being the carry trade loop hole used by hedge fund managers to avoid paying taxes.   That is the tax element I will be watching most closely to see if he sells out to Washington business as usual.


Trump may well be over his head.  Time will tell.

[karmirtsaghik]

R2T,
Nobody is suggesting to make HC accountable for her husband's awful behavior vis a vis women. But her reactions to these deeds are her responsibility. And in my opinion, the reactions needed much to be desired. She certainly has a lot to answer on her own. In fact, yesterday she was blaming the FBI chief for her defeat. No self reflection, not accountability. Mirror work is definitely needed. Do you feel safe, for example having a President who shares her email server with the STBXH of Huma Abbedin, who everyone knows never been discrete or judicious with internet use. Huma Abbedin is a dual Saudi and American national who definitely possessed at some  point Top Secret Clearance, and therefore did have access to classified information. Now do we share internet server between husband and wife while we work as a top aid to the Secretary fo State? HC was running to the highest office in the country, what she was thinking it is a walk in the park, because your pollsters tell you you are ahead double digits? This arrogance led to her loss. Again I feel very sad and worried for the future of America. I chose HC in spite of all her problems, because choosing Trump would be like trying to survive a strong earthquake with the ensuing tsunami, and my brain is not wired in the way to allow analyze complete and utter stupidity with traces of vitriol.  My hope is that this will lead for the new generation of leaders to come forward.

[honour]

The UK is allowed to control who goes into the UK.

This statement is factually incorrect. If you have an EU passport you cannot be denied entry to the UK. Currently, under EU law the UK cannot limit the numbers of EU citizens entering the UK.

No passport is requited. I enter the UK with my ID card.

I rest my case.

 https://www.gov.uk/uk-border-control/before-you-leave-for-the-uk
You can enter the UK with either a valid passport or a national identity card issued by a EEA country.

[Thunder]

I personally do put some of the blame on the FBI director.  How can you not?

He cleared Clinton, after months of digging, of anything criminal, then days before the election he decides to reopen it again.  ??
Then 2 days before the election he says they found nothing.  NOTHING!

You don't think that influenced some people???

The Commission asked him if he was a registered Republican.  His answer was..I have been a lifetime registered Republican, but I'm no longer a "registered" Republican.   

I'm sorry but that man should have been fired.  Even the Attorney General said he should not have done it, AND recommended he didn't,  because would appear to be influencing a general election.  But he did it anyway.

So yes, it may have influenced some people.  I'm sorry, Hillary is right.

[Roma]

 I agree with Thunder. HC did nothing wrong! Just nosy Republicans had it out for the Clinton's since they have been in Government! Even got a whole 'news' channel dedicated to crucifying them

The FBI 'investigation' was nonsense and horribly timed. What other election has EVER had anything like that days before a major election? Isn't there a law against that?

Do FOX news viewers ever research on their own or just take what FOX news says? you all seem to say the same things all the time coming from that channel! Just curious. I'd love to have an interesting discussion w/ one,  if only they think on their own and didn't repeat FOX news talking points all day.

I agree W/ Chris Rock. CHRIS ROCK 2020!

[karmirtsaghik]

Thunder,
I am not saying that FBI 's investigation was not" strategically" planned, of course it was. What I am saying is Do not give ammunition  to such investigations. Also we all remember a "serendipitous" encounter of Bill Thurman and Attorney General in Arizona airport, at the hight of  FBI email investigation, just days before HC was cleared of criminal wrongdoing. To the outsider it looks like they were trying to hide something and pulling all the strings.
I grow up in Soviet Union and for me American democracy exemplifies something much more than for average American. I will never take for granted my right to vote and other freedoms in America. I also know how dangerous is that slippery slope towards totalitarianism. Unfortunately lately American political landscape is starting to look like two- party oligarchy. We need fresh air in politics.
Phoenix,
Great and informative post. Thank you.