Midlife Crisis: Support for Left Behind Spouses
Archives => Archived Topics => Topic started by: MyBrainIsBroken on December 03, 2019, 10:28:46 AM
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This forum is not a standalone forum. It's part of a larger website, built by RCR, titled The Hero's Spouse. The website contains a large collection of well-researched, well-written articles that use Jungian theory as a foundation to explain what is commonly referred to as MidLife Crisis. The articles provide a lot of information that helps the reader understand that MLC is a crisis, an abnormal and catastrophic event, and they describe how to interact with an MLCer.
I was attracted to this website by the articles because I was completely baffled by my wife's behavior, including what seemed to be a complete personality change. The articles on this website were the first explanation I found that made sense for the changes I observed in my wife.
After reading every article and blog post on the site, I joined the forum. If my wife had Alzheimers and I had gone to an Alzheimers website and joined that forum I would have expected additional information about Alzheimers and support from the other forum members to help me learn how to cope with a spouse with Alzheimers. When I joined the forum here I expected to learn more about MLC and to receive support while I learned how to cope with a spouse who was gong through an MLC.
My answer to the question regarding whether RCR is wrong is that it doesn't matter. She created a website based on her beliefs. People like me are attracted to this website and forum because we want to learn more about her beliefs and how to apply them to our situation. If we felt RCR was wrong we would simply go elsewhere. If you think RCR is wrong perhaps you should go elsewhere.
It wouldn't be helpful if someone were to go to an Alzheimer's forum and post negative comments about Alzheimer's and Alzheimer's patients. In fact, it would be hurtful. So why do some forum members believe it is ok to come here and post negative comments about MLC and MLCers, comments that quite often oppose the information found in the articles on this site?
If you were to go to a Chevrolet enthusiast's forum and post derogatory comments about Chevys you would be rightfully considered a troll. I feel the same way about forum members who come here and post negative comments about MLC and MLCers. I have chosen to block those members who do that because I don't find their comments helpful. In fact, at times they're at best insensitive and at worst cruel and hurtful. On some discussion threads I only see about 1 post out of every 6 because the rest of them are all blocked. Why are so many comments being posted that disagree with the articles on this website? I've even observed a member being ridiculed for believing those articles. If you don't agree with those articles, what are you doing here? Do you enjoy being a troll?
Often forum members state that they shouldn't have to leave the forum just because they've chosen not to stand. I agree. Not everyone whose spouse is diagnosed with Alzheimers chooses to stay with their spouse. Not everyone whose spouse is diagnosed with cancer will choose to stay with their spouse. RCR doesn't claim that everyone with an MLC spouse should stand forever. But choosing not to stay with a spouse with Alzheimer's doesn't make it ok for you to go to an Alzheimer's forum and challenge or ridicule Alzheimer's, Alzheimer's patients, and those who choose to stay with their spouse who has Alzheimer's. The same applies here.
If you think RCR is wrong about MLC, fine, but some of us agree with RCR and would like to be able to use this forum to learn how to apply the principles RCR has published on this website. We don't need anyone telling us that we're wrong for wanting to do so. You may think that you're trying to protect us. I think you're a troll and I wish you'd go somewhere else.
Here are some of those principles for anyone who may have missed them.
Grace
Agape
Forgiveness
Hope
Belief
Faith
Trust
Acceptance
Gratitude
Joy
MLC Takes Time
If you think RCR is wrong, start your own website and forum and post your beliefs there. I promise not to follow you to your site and tell you that you're wrong. Your site, your beliefs, and you're welcome to them.
Is RCR Wrong? I don't think so!
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Hear, hear!
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I think RCR is great,
Awesome stuff,
-SS
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Totally agree! Well said.
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MBIB: one question if I may.
Do you see a difference between some of the posts that react to any MLCer content and those who try to help LBSes (specially newbies) to take their focus off the MLCer and to focus on themselves? Because I am afraid that some posts from various members here who are trying to help and advise newbies, specially ones who don't balance the principles you listed with the primary starting point of "self care" can get themselves into emotional and financial (and sometimes physical) trouble.
My personal take has been that sometimes newbies in the early stages focus way to much on the "hope" portion and miss the foundation of detachment, self care, self protection and actually living like their MLCers is not coming back.
So maybe some of the reaction here is a pushback to ones that are too focus on understanding, analyzing, reporting on MLCers and it causes a bit too much energy is response? Because imho in order to detach and GAL you have to take your focus of your (or any) MLCers. And partly because it is not easy, specially for laymen, to understand complex psychological states as a simple predictive set of behaviours.
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Word, Brain
Just curious...am I the poster you referred to as being ridiculed for drinking RCR’s Kool-Aid? Or am I just another one?
IMO RCR is definitely not wrong. Not only that - she is a true inspiration. She gave me hope when I had none. She uses her writing talents for the greater good, and she is to be lauded.
I say this at the risk of getting vitriolic retorts from others., I.e. “You’re just picking and choosing words to fit your narrative!” That’s fine. I don’t really care.
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Thanks MBIB for expressing your thoughts so well.
I agree with you.
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Xyzdf
To whom was your post directed?
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Mego to MBIB.
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That’s what I thought.
I’m just constantly being criticized for quoting RCR etc., so I’ve learned to ignore it.
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Marvin,
RCR's articles do say to detach, let them go, protect yourself financially and do your mirror work, let them do their own inner work.
We can not fix these MLCer's, only they can do that.....so no trying to fix.
Stay clear of having relationship talks (which was the best advice I ever got) and take good care of yourself.
That's just the tip of the iceberg with what all the articles offer.
I think most of us would say, it saved our sanity.
No RCR is not wrong.
Now did I follow all the advice, nope. Some did not fit my situation, but most helped tremendously.
Plus all the kind people who mentored and supported me.
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I like to think what Byron Katie has written: what we think or see of others, is actually a reflection of ourselves. I am oftentimes so sorry for the pain and hurt some LBS serm to carry, but it is their choice, and maybe it is required part of their healing process (the same way falling down with anxiety was for me). There is room for all sorts approaches here IMHO.
And yes, I share most of the values of RCR. Not because of my partner, but because of myself.
Alvin
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Marvin,
RCR's articles do say to detach, let them go, protect yourself financially and do your mirror work, let them do their own inner work.
We can not fix these MLCer's, only they can do that.....so no trying to fix.
Stay clear of having relationship talks (which was the best advice I ever got) and take good care of yourself.
That's just the tip of the iceberg with what all the articles offer.
I think most of us would say, it saved our sanity.
No RCR is not wrong.
Now did I follow all the advice, nope. Some did not fit my situation, but most helped tremendously.
Plus all the kind people who mentored and supported me.
So to paraphrase... focus on yourself.
I would be interested in MBIB’s response to Marvin’s question.
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I think we all would agree the best way to heal is to focus on ourself , and our kids, if we have them. We won't heal until we can let our MLCer go and any other MLCer we are searching for that mimics our MLCer. Either way, we have to let them go.
I think it's just hard for some to reach this point. It takes longer for some. Just as the MLCer has to hut rock bottom, so do we.
I agree with RCR, do I take everything she says as gospel??? No I don't. We all are different and lord knows our MLCers are different. There can't be a one size fits all approach to healing.
It's ok to give a 2x4. It's just a different way to give it.
You could smack me over the head with it, but some cant.take a soft tap. Does that mean I'm doing it right?? They are wrong?? Hell no.
When someone gives advice or their opinion, we don't need to assume they are talking about us. Or take it personally. If the shoe fits, wear it. If not , just keep working.
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I don't get the premise of this discussion, perhaps someone can help me. It seems to imply that there are a lot of people on this forum who discount all of the advice in the articles and blogs.
In fact, what I see are many, many people who are sharing the same advice found in many of RCR's writings: detach. take your eyes off the MLCer and focus on yourself. GAL. protect your finances. look inward/do mirror work. don't stage watch. don't mind read.
In all of the differing advice I've seen on this forum in my years here, I only remember one clearly back in my early days who believed MLC is not real and that all MLCers are simply completely terrible people.
When did saying "take your eyes off the MLCer" suddenly become the equivalent of being anti-standing, anti-HS, anti-empathetic?
When I first came here, I was told over and over to stop monkey braining over everything H did or said. Heck, I swore up and down for almost A YEAR there was NO OW and was repeatedly warned there probably was one. Nope, I remember clearly telling dear Medusa, not my H, no way, I'd know it, there's no OW. (spoiler alert: there was an OW all along.)
Did I feel personally attacked every time someone suggested there was probably an OW, or that I should focus on living like he was never coming back, and did I tell them they were mean and negative when they refused to indulge my posts about "H said this, what does it mean?" and instead told me to stop monkey braining and do something for myself? No. I grew and learned to stop obsessing over "H said this, what does it mean?"
And I'm so glad I did. I don't know how I'd be able to handle still watching him, still wondering about every word, every social media post, still letting his every action or inaction affect me. It would have destroyed me by now.
I honestly don't know where I'd be without all the people who taught me about gaslighting and blame shifting and codependency, who told me to stop monkey braining and to GAL, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. I never saw them as trolls. I never saw them as beating up on me. I never heard their words as "blah blah blah" (even though in the beginning, they had to repeat themselves quite a few times until I got it). I didn't want to hear it, but I am so grateful that they kept saying what I didn't want to hear. They weren't trying to knock me down; they were trying to help me build myself up. I very quickly realized that even though I didn't want to hear what they were saying, they were supporters who were trying to guide me towards healing.
I don't understand anymore. I don't understand how trying to guide an LBS towards healing is being seen as detrimental.
(And yes, sometimes people get very frustrated and don't say things "gently." 2x4s, sometimes extremely blunt 4x4s sometimes given. That's always been the case.)
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Marvin,
Of course you can ask a question. You always ask good questions and post thoughtful comments.
Do you see a difference between some of the posts that react to any MLCer content and those who try to help LBSes (specially newbies) to take their focus off the MLCer and to focus on themselves?
I have seen comments posted about the stages that LBSes go through. I think most of us first came here searching for answers and the articles describing MLC are what attracted us. Some LBSes quickly accept and detach and start focusing on themselves. Some of us take longer.
RCR wrote a lot of articles about MLC and how to cope with an MLCer. She also wrote a lot of articles about focusing on ourselves. IMO they're all important but it takes time to reach the point where we're ready to focus on ourselves.
I think it's ok for somebody to suggest to a newcomer that they focus on themselves. That's something that a member can do even if they aren't a stander, but I think it's important to remember that this is a lot like dealing with grief and everyone goes through the stages in their own way and in their own time. So yes, it's ok to suggest to somebody that they focus on themselves but no, it's not ok to insist that somebody focus on themselves. We should be advisers, not directors. IMO.
I think some current forum members with the best intentions become frustrated with newcomers who seem too focused on the MLCer but I can't find anything in RCR's articles that would justify pushing newcomers to refocus before they're ready.
Honestly, when I first came here I was very confused by the advice to focus on myself. I was being told that my wife's MLC was not my fault, that I didn't cause it, that it would have happened no matter who she had been married to, and then I was told to focus on myself. But it took me a while to understand why I should focus on me if I wasn't the reason for my wife's crisis.
Maybe it would be a good idea to refer newcomers to these articles and let them decide when they're ready:
Who Are You?
https://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/self-focus_who-are-you.html (https://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/self-focus_who-are-you.html)
Why Should I Work on Myself?
https://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/self-focus_who-are-you_why-should-i-work-on-myself.html (https://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/self-focus_who-are-you_why-should-i-work-on-myself.html)
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NAS
I think all agree or will one day, if they heal and move on. But you and I took that advice and ran with it.
Some can't. Until they are ready??? We can't help or fix them.
Same as you I remember and said Many times, not my Wife. Yep I was wrong.
We are all on same page NAS. We just have different opinions on how to get it across.
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Nas I agree with you, but that's not saying RCR's advice was wrong, it's just people who didn't or couldn't listen.
I believe most people here give good advice, but you can't make the horse drink.
That's on them.
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We are all on same page NAS. We just have different opinions on how to get it across.
I agree, and I don't think different opinions are a bad thing at all.
Nas I agree with you, but that's not saying RCR's advice was wrong, it's just people who didn't or couldn't listen.
I believe most people here give good advice, but you can't make the horse drink.
That's on them.
I didn't say RCR's advice was wrong - is that how you read my post?
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No not at all, Nas.
I think we feel the same way. But MB question was do you think RCR is wrong?
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No not at all, Nas.
I think we feel the same way. But MB question was do you think RCR is wrong?
Ah, gotcha. I thought maybe I came across to you as though I was saying something different.
See, always good to ask for clarification. ;) ;) ;)
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Anytime! I'm not always the most eloquent writer. :)
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Anytime! I'm not always the most eloquent writer. :)
Nor am I - especially when posting from a phone!
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My personal take has been that sometimes newbies in the early stages focus way to much on the "hope" portion and miss the foundation of detachment, self care, self protection and actually living like their MLCers is not coming back.
Yes, and I say leave the newbies to whatever they need to get through the newbie stage. Live like they are never coming back is not a newbie thought. I didn’t have people here pushing me through the newbie stage but I still progressed to the next stage regardless and the newbies here now will do the same. So us non-newbies and old timers can relax and let these newbies find their own way in their own time. Back when I was a newbie I would have been offended by too much advice and criticism of what I felt THEN I needed and wanted to do. So we can all back off and let them be imo.
RCR is not wrong. I love her writings and Jungian based theories which make a lot of sense to me. She might not be right either. Is there any theory that can claim to be 100% right? Of course not. As a newbie I survived the early years without being led by old timers and without abandoning RCR’s Jungian influenced writings.
I guess my point is,,let’s leave the newbies to find their own way with some gentle guidance. If that’s not accepted then back off and let them be. I believe they will learn and grow despite anything we can do. I pushed away plenty as a newbie but I did grow and move forward as I was ready and not a minute sooner.
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I'm going to put out two thoughts here.
1-I would bet that RCR would say the way some people interpret her articles is wrong. That they miss the whole point of them.
2-A few months ago I came across an excerpt from a TV program that RCR and Chuck appeared in, talking about his affair. Before I say any more, I want to add the caveat it was just a few minutes excerpt and reality tv producers can twist things to be unrealistic. However, the impression I immediately got from that excerpt was that Chuck didn't actually have an MLC. That it was just marital issues for him. Even the way the segment with RCR and Chuck was advertised made it look like Chuck had issues with RCR. I mentioned this to an LBS friend who felt the same way after watching the excerpt. And my friend then said, what if Chuck didn't actually have an MLC? What does that mean for the applicability of all of what she wrote to MLC vs. your garden variety affair?
I mentioned to an old timer later my thoughts and how I had seen this excerpt, and interestingly, the old timer had seen the entire program when it first came out and told me at the time there was discussion among forum members who saw it who were not convinced that Chuck had an MLC from the way he and RCR described things in the program.
Now some of the advice may apply either way, but what if, indeed, RCR's writings were based on something other than what others' spouses are experiencing? What if Chuck was just your garden variety cheater who then went back to his wife when she put the screws into him? It doesn't make her wrong as her experience is what it is and that is what she drew upon in her writings, but if indeed he had no childhood issues as most of us agree are an essential part of MLC, and instead was just going through a period of marital dissatisfaction, is it actually even right FOR US to be applying her experience to ours?
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BIB
I agree totally with you. As a newbie I arrived here in a mess. I didn’t think it was possible that my h could have changed his entire life and personality and have ow but he did. One of the first people who reached out to me when I was such a wreck was Thunder. She was kind and compassionate yet encouraged me to start looking out for myself. She advised me in so many things that, at the time I couldn’t absorb yet, not once did she ram down my throat her opinions or insist that it was her way or no way.
I am a work in progress as are we all and reading RCR’s articles and experience has helped me immensely. The advice to take from them what you need and discard what you don’t is, to me anyway, the whole crux of the matter. Each person is an individual and each get through this at different time frames. As such, I cannot understand the reasoning behind certain posters who constantly come across as I am right and that’s that. Perhaps, in their own development they have forgotten the absolute torment being a newbie is.
Sadly, had I arrived at this forum yesterday I would have got out of here immediately because it’s the overbearing and cruel way certain posters impose their will upon very vulnerable and desperately fragile people. Mego in particular seems to be smacked down and put down constantly by certain posters and I don’t think that’s ok how is that being supportive or compassionate. It smacks of bullying tactics and I for one don’t agree with it.
My sister in particular took an onslaught of quite frankly rude and really quite insulting posts from probably the same posters you have blocked. What gets me is the fact that she was not acceptable because of her refusal to start her own account and with the, as I too see them, trolls, who could blame her for worrying about her own privacy. Shame really because I really thought she was helping people to realise it’s not their fault and MLC is a complete mine field. She always advised the LBS to focus entirely on themselves.
Brain, I have rambled on a bit but I understand and agree completely with you.
God bless you
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Is RCR "wrong"? It depends on how one interprets "wrong". Is some of her advice wrong for me? Yes. Were some of the things she accepted from her spouse while standing wrong for me? Yes. Are her opinions wrong? Never, as no opinion is wrong, it's just an opinion.
There is no person for whom I worship all their words, but that doesn't mean their words are not valuable. Even words i don't agree with can be valuable. Knowledge is power, take what i can use and throw away the rest.
What I find wrong is when anyone tries to force someone else to do only what they want instead of allowing people their right to choose what they want to do, right, wrong or indifferent. Suggest all you want, give your own anecdotes all you want, tell people what the results of their choices could be all you want. Some people will stay stuck if they aren't ready for change, but my harassing them isn't going to change that.
I will say I don't get the "if you don't believe in whatever whichever site is all about, you should leave", either. What, because I no longer stand I don't deserve to be here? That makes zero sense. Maybe I'd like to learn some more about how to recognize someone heading into crisis. Maybe I'd like to viritually hold the hand of someone trying to navigate the Hell that comes after BD.
"Wrong". What a nebulous word.
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Interesting question, Brain.
Do I think RCR is wrong? Well, I suppose my answer depends on what I expect 'right' entails. Generally I think both RCR's articles and indeed Hearts Blessing's ones have many bits in them that explain some of the incomprehensible stuff that seems to be part of an MLC. Many of us, including me, have read articles and found ourself nodding or going ah yes. I am sure - as for any writer - that some was drawn from learning from her own experience although if I remember rightly RCR did a lot of research too. I think LP said on another thread that RCR may have written differently or about some different things if her own experience had included some different factors. And she wrote them at a point in time and now, years later, she may see some elements differently. And of course some of the underpinning philosophy for the lack of a better word, things like Hope and Unconditional Love as a principle,and the list you shared, are about her deeper beliefs. It would be interesting actually to see what RCR thinks about your question.....
Is she 'right' about my former h? Idk. Was she 'right' about her spouse? Idk. (And to be fair, although I'm sure her h knows about this site - how could he not given the effort she invests - his voice is not present so none of us know if he thinks he had an MLC or not) But is she 'right enough' about the general patterns and shape of this thing we call MLC that it is generally recognisable to a lot of us? Yes, it seems so. Which is no mean feat for something so complicated and confusing. And a real sanity saver for many of us here.
I don't get the impression though that RCR has ever wanted to set herself up as a guru who knows everything and should be followed slavishly. Doesn't seem like the kind of person she is. I also think we find different things in the articles when we read them at different stages perhaps. And we all pick and mix to some extent don't we?
Your question has prompted me to think I should go back and re-read some of the articles.
I think there was a poster here called Don'tGiveUp who seemed to have an almost photographic memory and was very good at pulling out segments that might apply to individual situations. I think too that I remember someone else quoting him saying 'Which bit of the word crisis don't you understand?' :)
And a broader question.....do people have 'favourite' articles? A top two or three that they found most useful? It might even be interesting to take a specific article or two and have a discussion thread for each one that allows us to explore or unpick them from our own experience? A way of building the knowledge base perhaps. Just a thought.
So do I think RCR is wrong about MLC in general? Probably not. Do I think everything she wrote is an exact fit for my xh? Probably not. Do I think there are some bits that have been more useful or applicable to my situation as an LBS? Probably. Do I think there are some gaps? Probably. Do I think that at stages we LBS may not always balance what RCR says about MLC with what she also says about healing and coping as an LBS? Probably. All of which seems normal and ok to me. I appreciate what RCR has done but it was never her responsibility to fix my h, come up with all the answers or fix my life was it? ;)
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RCR is just one person, with one ''MLCer''. We can question and doubt if he was an MLCer at all, but isn't that the case for most of us who have researched many other possibilities? They can fit so many checklists it is hard to really identify which one they are until the end. By then it hardly matters anymore.
So is RCR right? Well she was apparently right for HER situation. That doesn't mean she is right for every situation.
And even though she has lots of brilliant articles the next step is how people will interpret those articles, and then bend them to fit their own narrative.
A lot like the Bible actually.
A Bible verse may say the same thing, yet it will be interpreted by different denominations of faith to mean different things.
It is flexed to suit their beliefs.
The same happens here. Though I personally think it ridiculous to liken MLC articles written by one person to that status, yet some people treat it as such.
RCR was just a woman. She happened to come here and write about her experience first. But she is no different to any of the other brilliant men and women here who have walked the same path...she just happened to write about it first.
People are so focused on the words of one, that they no longer listen to the collective voice...and therefore will never see the whole picture. We can only see the whole picture if we hear everyone's voice and see it from all sides....even the sides we don't care to view.
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If you were to go to a Chevrolet enthusiast's forum and post derogatory comments about Chevys you would be rightfully considered a troll. I feel the same way about forum members who come here and post negative comments about MLC and MLCers. I have chosen to block those members who do that because I don't find their comments helpful. In fact, at times they're at best insensitive and at worst cruel and hurtful. On some discussion threads I only see about 1 post out of every 6 because the rest of them are all blocked. Why are so many comments being posted that disagree with the articles on this website? I've even observed a member being ridiculed for believing those articles. If you don't agree with those articles, what are you doing here? Do you enjoy being a troll?
I just wanted to address several points in here. I have disagreed with RCR, publicly and privately. You know what? She THANKED me for disagreeing with her! She actually LIKES hearing viewpoints that differ from her own, as this helps one to learn more and broaden our minds and knowledge and improve the outcomes of interacting with the M LC and MLCers that we have to deal with. She'd probably rather hear a different viewpoint than the blind worship some people on here seem to have for her, yourself included, especially when that worship is based on a false understanding of what she has written.
If you are so bothered by disagreement that you are blocking 5 out of 6 posts, then perhaps it is you who doesn't fit in with the atmosphere that RCR has created here and obviously wants to maintain.
Finally, "If you don't like it, you can leave" is my H's favorite line to say to OW and to a lesser extent, myself. So believe me, your arguments do NOT impress me in the slightest.
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This site has been a Godsend for most of us and we wouldn't be here still if it wasn't.
I read all of RCR's articles when I joined and my poor brain was so overwhelmed from the BD, I had to read them over and over again until some of it sank in. I couldn't even read one page of a book at the time and found it almost impossible to work at my job. I persisted with the articles and actually listened t the advice given by all which was of course based on RCR's articles but at the time I needed them "dumbed down" and many forum members were able to hand me snippets of information as I needed them. It was at least two years before I could read the articles in full and another year or two before I could properly function at work. I was surrounded by wonderful people who just put up with me and many of them didn't even know the extent of my pain or that I was even going through a divorce and extreme aggression by H at the time. I wasn't sleeping much and I was struggling to understand what had happened to my wonderful husband who I had loved so much.
I have no doubt RCR is right and all the articles make perfect sense to me. The difference is in the MLCer and LBS themselves. as we are all different people with different perceptions and some MLCers are more aggressive and defiant than others which makes each case of MLC a little different from the next ad each LBS is different too.
The essence of what RCR teaches is right and trying to see the MLCer in the most positive light possible is always the best option, if not for them, for ourselves and our emotional wellbeing. The best thing we can all do is to focus on our own healing and advancement and to reflect on how far we have come and be as proud of that as possible. If the MLCer ever does contact we are then in the best place possible to respond and not react as the inner work on ourselves is done and we are such better people for it. As hard as it is to see MLC as a gift, in the end it really is.
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I can’t quote right now, but I very much disagree with the Chevy analogy. A Chevy truck is a Chevy truck. It can’t be confused for a Toyota pick up truck or a Nissan pick up truck or any other kind of pick up truck. People who are Chevy truck enthusiast know what a Chevy truck is and there can be no mistaking it.
What is MLC? That’s been hotly debated. And even for those who agree on what it might be, it manifests itself in different ways in different people.
What IS universal is that all of us show up here because we’ve been hurt by, as Treasur calls it often, WIW (whatever it was).
If you don’t agree you should leave is not a only a confusing statement (agree with what? There’s multiple ideas from a variety of people seeking knowledge and help).
Is it “if you don’t agree with standing you should leave?”
I won’t put words in RCR’s mouth but I think she’s already made it pretty clear she definitely doesn’t feel that way.
Was RCR wrong? Wrong about what? About MLC being a journey that ultimately ends?
About detaching and not stage watching?
About protecting yourself emotionally and financially?
About putting down solid boundaries?
I found this site much more inclusive and liberal than any of the other sites. Incidentally, I’ve seen members leave here and go to another site I’m a member of and be literally kicked off and banned within hours of joining.
This site allows for a lot of things, in particular differences of opinion and venting of healthy anger. That’s the reason I’ve remained all along.
Some of the things that happen here would be immediately shut down elsewhere. In fact, ANY thread that focuses on an MLCer would be immediately removed from HB’s site and I can say that with absolute certainty. There is a degree of freedom and range of discussion here not afforded elsewhere.
And as uncomfortable as it might be when a thread blows up, I often find that the end result is that there are multiple takeaways that end up being useful for many people. Yes, maybe there would’ve been a better way to get there, but it is what it is.
I am very very troubled by this newfound idea, or maybe not newfound but definitely gaining notoriety, that there is a select group of people on here who are “persecuted.”
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Is RCR wrong?
IMO, I think most of her articles make sense.
I’m trying to find the one that says follow what the MLCer says.
I feel lately I’m being painted as negative Bc the site is being flooded with garbage from self-proclaimed MLCers. That’s not RCR.
For example... stage watching.
To paraphrase RCRs article (it’s been awhile since I read the articles, so feel free to make corrections)
She mentions stage watching isn’t healthy but we’re going to do it, so here’s the stages...
Then she lists the stages.
I interpret her style as similar to a doctor with a patient with heart disease, hey you should diet and exercise, but since you keep indulging in an unhealthy lifestyle, here’s some medication from big pharma, until you are ready to take the necessary steps. She doesn’t just bury you with the drugs bc it’s what you want, she gives you ALL the information.
I’m also trying to find when a newbie landed here battered and bruised and one of the “naysayers” yelled, “HE’S NOT COMING BACK!”, maybe I missed that, so correct me if I’m wrong.
IMO, the divided groups seem more pronounced on the MLCer threads. Should the “naysayers” skip these articles and hope they just die out? Well, that’s the problem, they’re like a drug to an addict, instead of dying naturally, they are growing. I completely understand how a newbie would be drawn to these articles, I know I would have, but there are hundreds of these nonsense Facebook groups with these weak writers flooding Fakebook with this garbage.
That’s why I have a hard time “scrolling past”, not “policing and protecting” or whatever you want to call it. I feel balancing the “hey this awesome MLCer from Facebook is going to explain his fog-brain” with RCR’s advice of “let them be, focus on yourself” is just paying it forward bc that’s what I feel RCR’s articles taught me.
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I think too that I remember someone else quoting him saying 'Which bit of the word crisis don't you understand?' :)
Ah, yes, DGU did say that over and over. ;D
I first found this site maybe a year or a year and a half after BD. I honestly don't remember, but a long time ago. The site was new, the members so incredibly supportive of each other on the forum (so very different from now, from what I see). There were few enough posters that we knew each others' stories and gave each other the encouragement, help, and hope we needed.
I guess I feel like "right" is relative. The articles are very helpful and a good resource for understanding MLC. Like everything, it isn't one size fits all. I have seen my husband emerge/emerging from the tunnel, so I've seen the MLC all the way through, which did take a very long time. One thing that I think isn't accurate necessarily is the time frame. I think MLC takes longer than the 3-7 years in many cases, but that's just anecdotal.
Information on the stages is valuable, but I don't think they go through them in a linear way necessarily, and may ping-pong their way back and forth.
I was all about paving the way, both because of my desire to stand and because those types of behaviors fit with the faith lens I see life through. I don't know if it's because of that or because of something else, but my H has been reconnecting big time with our family, closer than ever, very much a part of our lives, very much in communication. We'll see where it leads. Thankfully, he is a normal human being again, very, very much like the man I knew for so many years pre-MLC.
I know there is a lot of debate about the idea that "most" will try to return. I honestly do think (again, anecdotally, based on stories I know and what I know about MLC, not based on any facts and figures or statistics) that most would WANT to return. I don't think we see as many return stories as we would hope for various reasons. First of all, the time needed for the MLCer to finish MLCing is so long that I think a lot of LBS give up and move on (very, very understandably) before they would even attempt a return. Also, I wonder how many MLCers eventually want to return but are unable to due to guilt, shame, fear of unforgiveness, etc? I don't know. I'm just thinking aloud. Of course, some will always be in left field.
I do know that this site and the articles were a lifeline for me. Yes, I watched my MLCer too closely (he was home for much of the MLC, so difficult not to, honestly). Yes, I spent more time worrying about the eventual outcome than focusing on me in the beginning. But back then, 2x4s were delivered with a softer blow. I got there eventually, as LBS do. We don't all get to a healthy place at the same time. Some take longer than others and do need more gentle reminders. And that's okay. Truly, it is.
And in response to another thread, which got so ugly I can't look anymore, I don't see anything wrong with hearing an MLCer's or former MLCers point of view. It has helped me immensely, even at the stage I am now. I found myself being able to see so much of what SS said in relation to what I have witnessed.
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nah:
but there are hundreds of these nonsense Facebook groups with these weak writers flooding Fakebook with this garbage.
It is not for anyone to judge where other people find support. I read this FB site and what I see are many people who are trying to show care and support to one another which LBSers desperately need. As with other support groups, there is great value in being able to share with others who are going through the same experience.
The place that I find most helpful still is Rejoice Ministries. This would not appeal to many HS members because the message is that Prodigals do return, that prayer matters and there is always hope. I read this site every day. I especially enjoy Tuesday's devotions which are written by Bob Steincamp, from his perspective as a prodigal. I have received phone calls from volunteers, strangers who are praying for me, my family and our marriage.
So please stop criticizing what others find useful.
There is not one "one size fits all" to any of this.
I smiled when I read this from treasur this morning:
think there was a poster here called Don'tGiveUp who seemed to have an almost photographic memory and was very good at pulling out segments that might apply to individual situations. I think too that I remember someone else quoting him saying 'Which bit of the word crisis don't you understand?' :)
He also had an incredible understanding of MLC. He has a friend whose wife went through a MLC and he was able to see first hand what transpired. Whenever I would "panic"..his words "what part of the word crisis don't you understand" would help to calm me down. Although he is extremely knowledgable about MLC, he taught me that there is life outside of this mess.
This is the kind of help I find useful. He cared about how I felt, he cared deeply but he never was unkind to me, no matter how long it took me to get with the program.
Some LBSers take longer than others. Each of us find what we need eventually, to heal and proceed with our lives......
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Agreed Nah, I actually think the one saving grace that makes the “MLCer” threads worthwhile is the injection of differing views, interpretation and dissecting by long-timers of what the MLCer is/might be/could be saying.
Down the road, reading a thread with an MLCer’s words and multiple alternate interpretations of what they could mean “might” be helpful.
Reading just an MLCer’s words and heaps of praise with no questioning or pushback would just literally be a blind worshipping of a stranger on the internet, with no takeaways for current or future members.
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nah: but there are hundreds of these nonsense Facebook groups with these weak writers flooding Fakebook with this garbage.
It is not for anyone to judge where other people find support. I read this FB site and what I see are many people who are trying to show care and support to one another which LBSers desperately need. As with other support groups, there is great value in being able to share with others who are going through the same experience.
The place that I find most helpful still is Rejoice Ministries. This would not appeal to many HS members because the message is that Prodigals do return, that prayer matters and there is always hope. I read this site every day. I especially enjoy Tuesday's devotions which are written by Bob Steincamp, from his perspective as a prodigal. I have received phone calls from volunteers, strangers who are praying for me, my family and our marriage.
So please stop criticizing what others find useful.
There is not one "one size fits all" to any of this.
I think you missed my point.
Yes, I agree, there is not a “one size fits all”, and there are many helpful groups out there, I belong to other groups too but they are not this group.
A guess an example would be if I started to flood hero spouse with Chump Lady. Oh you don’t like Chump Lady? Then don’t read what I post, stop policing me.
Chump Lady is not RCR so I would think cutting and pasting her advice on here would be inappropriate.
I think it would be a safe bet if I did start pulling Chump Lady’s advice over here, the same exact people who advice to “scroll past” “block and ignore”, would have a hard time doing just that.
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Hi nah,
Lots and lots of things are copied and pasted on HS. Articles of interest for example.
I do hear what you are saying though.
What I do when I read an article that I think might be of interest to others is I post the link to where to find that article. That way, people can go directly to the source. From the direct source, there is less likely to be misinterpretation or confusion of what the poster is actually saying.
Thanks for your input re this.
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Agreed 💯 XY.
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Interesting topic. The only thing I might add, is that RCR has completed a near PhD level analysis of MLC. She has researched, analyzed, read and dissected the available literature - when I look at the resource index alone I can’t begin to imagine the time commitment required to learn, process and synthesize the information. And if not PhD, then clearly she would be considered a subject matter expert in lay terms.
What I appreciate about RCR, despite how heavily researched her opinion and analysis, she makes no guarantees, she’s clear to point out every MLC and MLCer is different and we each have the responsibility to chose for ourselves what works and what doesn’t.
I found the main site shortly after BD and I poured over the articles - reading and rereading them. I signed up for the forum once I knew there was an OW but only read a little bit - I don’t think I was “ready” yet to engage at that level. I think I focused on learning and the articles for about two years and now, in the last six months, I have found the forum to be extremely helpful in taking the right next steps.
Savvy, thank you for posting - I used to love reading books too and find I can’t anymore. I couldn’t function at work either and after a year and a half - I had to resign. I have done some freelance at home this last year but my brain doesn’t work like it used to - I absolutely must go back to work full time but I am no way able to perform the executive level functions of my “previous life” - I have felt like a huge failure in this regard, I am often still struggling to get through the day - we keep getting hit with repeated legal threats, so I am not out of the cycle of trauma yet. I appreciate knowing that maybe my experience of inability to focus and perform at work after 2.5 years is not necessarily atypical. And thanks XY for the info about Rejoice Ministries - that sounds like something I might benefit from. Sorry for the quick hijack - I just wanted to thank Savvy and XY for bringing more healing to the table for me...
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Yes RCR is well-schooled on MLC to say the least. Larry Bilotta is good too, but I don’t entirely trust him ($$$).
My question is for anyone who believes RCR is “wrong”....what do you think she was/is wrong about? Because for me, what she wrote came to life right before my eyes. My X morphed into the Prisoner personality! Before that, I was thoroughly confused by her description and wondered if she was certifiably insane.
If I had Oprah-money I would absolutely publish THS.
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[MLC joke.. not real]
Is RCR wrong?
[Childish, immature voice] "No!!! You're wrong!!!!"
LOL!!!!
-SS
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I agree with RCR.
Mego, SS, how do you feel about her words on mirror Work?
Paving the Way is about how you treat others and your Self; it integrates with Mirror-Work which is about you; who you are, how you respond and react and what you can do to change what needs changing, embrace what needs loving and heal without bitterness. Paving the Way for your MLCer to come home is about loving your Self and making your Self a priority.As you change and heal, you become an attractive force for your MLCer. Understanding the theory as I explain it will get you nowhere if you fail to apply it; without actions it’s dead and I can’t do the work for you. Growth is a personal experience.
Aka... focus on yourself. The “naysayers” aren’t disagreeing with RCR. Just the opposite.
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I agree with RCR, Mego, SS, how do you feel about her words on mirror Work?
Paving the Way is about how you treat others and your Self; it integrates with Mirror-Work which is about you; who you are, how you respond and react and what you can do to change what needs changing, embrace what needs loving and heal without bitterness. Paving the Way for your MLCer to come home is about loving your Self and making your Self a priority.As you change and heal, you become an attractive force for your MLCer. Understanding the theory as I explain it will get you nowhere if you fail to apply it; without actions it’s dead and I can’t do the work for you. Growth is a personal experience.
Aka... focus on yourself. The “naysayers” aren’t disagreeing with RCR. Just the opposite.
This all day long. This is what I knew early on I had to do but didn't want to and for the first few months I wouldn't even look at the writings on mirror work. Credit to my wonderful mentor, Ready2Transform, and others for keeping on me until I understood the importance. I just wanted the theory to be true and the "stages" to hurry up and happen so I could get to "the end."
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I agree with RCR.
Mego, SS, how do you feel about her words on mirror Work?
Paving the Way is about how you treat others and your Self; it integrates with Mirror-Work which is about you; who you are, how you respond and react and what you can do to change what needs changing, embrace what needs loving and heal without bitterness. Paving the Way for your MLCer to come home is about loving your Self and making your Self a priority.As you change and heal, you become an attractive force for your MLCer. Understanding the theory as I explain it will get you nowhere if you fail to apply it; without actions it’s dead and I can’t do the work for you. Growth is a personal experience.
Aka... focus on yourself. The “naysayers” aren’t disagreeing with RCR. Just the opposite.
Hi Nah,
I totally agree with that. Where I differ is that some interpret that to mean at the exclusion/determent of the MLC'er. I choose to improve (and a lot of it) as well as engage the MLC'er. The MLC'er is expecting the LBS to be hurt, damaged and pushed away by their words/actions.The MLC'er is a bully. In my case, W thought I'd be gone toot-sweet when she tried to push me away.... she was shocked when that didn't happen. Instead I got better, stronger, better looking. Before long her monstering had no effect, and without the desired effect of hurting me it lost it's power and appeal. Where she struggled with life, work.... I excelled. Where she thought confessing anything to me would be anger and condemnation instead brought kindness, understanding and love..... she was shocked again. New trust began (slowly).
So mirror work? Absolutely essential. Focusing only on yourself? Absolutely not (not for me anyway). Gotta stand up to that monster and not be afraid of it (that's another RCR teaching).
We can't be exclusively mirror-work (IMO). That's only part of our work... and I think that's what RCR says. Survival mode can't last forever, we have to get back into the fight. Active, not passive (and I totally understand that this is not possible with all MLC'ers).
-SS
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It seems to me you are doing great for being so early in but...
“Not focusing only on yourself? Stand up to the monster? Get back into the fight?”
I’m not sure where RCR wrote your ideas. Do you believe RCR is wrong? Bc she wrote this -
Release is difficult. You are not only emotionally attached to your MLCer, but you are also attached to an outcome--you want to reconcile. Ironically the only way to achieve a true reconciliation is through releasing the attachment to it. That does not mean giving lip-service to release, but coming to a place where you can Accept with joy whatever outcome you receive.
Appropriately detached you will still be able to care, but you will also be able to function. Detachment is the first step in the process of release. Cut the cord (Detach); drop the rope (Let-Go), step to the side and Accept (Surrender). Detachment is at the behavioral and emotional level. Detach from your MLCer's emotions, otherwise you will cycle with him and his behaviors will create your emotions. Then learn to Surrender by first Letting-Go. Let-Go of any agenda, Let-Go of preconceived notions, Let-Go of expectations; the final Letting-Go is where you approach Surrender when you release control to God. It's also the hardest. Letting-Go is a process and you may grab on again many times, you reach Surrender when you no longer feel the need to take back control, but rather you trust in a Higher Power regardless of whether it is directing you to where you want to be or not. Surrender is a state of trust and Acceptance. him and his behaviors will create your emotions. Then learn to Surrender by first Letting-Go. Let-Go of any agenda, Let-Go of preconceived notions, Let-Go of expectations; the final Letting-Go is where you approach Surrender when you release control to God. It's also the hardest. Letting-Go is a process and you may grab on again many times, you reach Surrender when you no longer feel the need to take back control, but rather you trust in a Higher Power regardless of whether it is directing you to where you want to be or not. Surrender is a state of trust and Acceptance. where you approach Surrender when you release control to God. It's also the hardest. Letting-Go is a process and you may grab on again many times, you reach Surrender when you no longer feel the need to take back control, but rather you trust in a Higher Power regardless of whether it is directing you to where you want to be or not. Surrender is a state of trust and Acceptance.
Again, it’s about letting go, detach from them (aka... stop focusing on them) and focus on YOU.
Sorry if these words seem negative but they are directly from RCR.
Is RCR wrong?
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I have always thought RCR was very strong as an lbs spouse. She seemed to have pretty clear boundaries and was kind but firm. If I had been able to follow her instructions, I’d have been detached and healthier much earlier. She is often misconstrued. We give our own meaning to her words depending on our state of mind I think.
It is completely normal to be stuck. Perhaps for a long time. The facing of a possible new reality is just too painful. In any case, no one knows what may happen in anyone’s individual relationship. However, there comes a time when continuing to encourage the fantasy of reconciliation - encourage rather than acknowledge its possible but unlikely - becomes collusion in that fantasy and in encouraging a withdrawal from engaging fully with the new reality of Life imo and impacts children too.
It’s an awfully fine line but for me, there’s a real peace and freedom in being able to recognise the fantasy and relegate it. There were several posters here who gave me mild ‘wake up and smelll the coffee advice’. Even as it stung, I recognised the common sense.
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Thank you for reminding us of these words, nah.
I remember going back to that collection of articles over and over again bc it was the hardest road to walk. And it definitely happened in clunky stages for me. Sometimes I fought for it, sometimes against it, sometimes events forced me or my own exhaustion, sometimes anger or resentment too. Tbh I think it is only quite recently that I have touched the deeper acceptance of Surrender. And I don't always manage to stay there lol....but more and more I can get back to it with a bit of effort. And it is a calmer, happier place and strangely even a place of love in a way.
I have noticed that a couple of other posters are at that 2-3,year point when they have detached a lot, even dropped the rope but now find themselves in a place where their old hope has dwindled and they are not sure where to go now. This excerpt is probably one that speaks directly to that....the deeper stages of dropping the rope and trying to find a way to accept without resentment, to trust that in ways we can't see yet our life will be ok, to find whatever higher power we believe in and really genuinely hand all the messy bits over to it.
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Nah
I've never disagreed with anything RCR has written. That's why she's my personal guru.
Am I bad at Mirror-work? Sure. But I'm in Survival Mode.
It's still hard to focus on anything, other than getting out of bed tomorrow.
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Nah
I've never disagreed with anything RCR has written. That's why she's my personal guru.
Am I bad at Mirror-work? Sure.
But I'm in Survival Mode. Hard to focus on anything, other than getting out of bed tomorrow.
Mego, if it isn't too presumptuous bc I don't know you very well, may I say that this is one of the most brave honest things I have seen you post. And probably a good sign that you are starting to inch your way out of survival mode. Which as so many of us know is hard and not like living at all is it? I think I was stuck in survival for at least two years, maybe a little more. I hope that you are feeling the odd glimmer of light now even if it is a bit off and on....and that you will start to find your own way to follow RCR's guide on the mirror work. Not easy but it seems to work like a slow snowball so it gets easier with time :)
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It seems to me you are doing great for being so early in but...
“Not focusing only on yourself? Stand up to the monster? Get back into the fight?”
I’m not sure where RCR wrote your ideas. Do you believe RCR is wrong? Bc she wrote this -
Release is difficult. You are not only emotionally attached to your MLCer, but you are also attached to an outcome--you want to reconcile. Ironically the only way to achieve a true reconciliation is through releasing the attachment to it. That does not mean giving lip-service to release, but coming to a place where you can Accept with joy whatever outcome you receive.
Appropriately detached you will still be able to care, but you will also be able to function. Detachment is the first step in the process of release. Cut the cord (Detach); drop the rope (Let-Go), step to the side and Accept (Surrender).Detachment is at the behavioral and emotional level. Detach from your MLCer's emotions, otherwise you will cycle with him and his behaviors will create your emotions. Then learn to Surrender by first Letting-Go. Let-Go of any agenda, Let-Go of preconceived notions, Let-Go of expectations; the final Letting-Go is where you approach Surrender when you release control to God. It's also the hardest.[/b] Letting-Go is a process and you may grab on again many times, you reach Surrender when you no longer feel the need to take back control, but rather you trust in a Higher Power regardless of whether it is directing you to where you want to be or not. Surrender is a state of trust and Acceptance. him and his behaviors will create your emotions. Then learn to Surrender by first Letting-Go. Let-Go of any agenda, Let-Go of preconceived notions, Let-Go of expectations; the final Letting-Go is where you approach Surrender when you release control to God. It's also the hardest. Letting-Go is a process and you may grab on again many times, you reach Surrender when you no longer feel the need to take back control, but rather you trust in a Higher Power regardless of whether it is directing you to where you want to be or not. Surrender is a state of trust and Acceptance. where you approach Surrender when you release control to God. It's also the hardest. Letting-Go is a process and you may grab on again many times, you reach Surrender when you no longer feel the need to take back control, but rather you trust in a Higher Power regardless of whether it is directing you to where you want to be or not. Surrender is a state of trust and Acceptance.
Again, it’s about letting go, detach from them (aka... stop focusing on them) and focus on YOU.
Sorry if these words seem negative but they are directly from RCR.
Is RCR wrong?
Hey Nah,
It's understandable to think this is the only goal....... maybe it rightfully is for some. Absolutely for those with a vanisher or some other limited contact. Also for sanity and healing. I think what that sentence is talking about is giving in to whatever happens next and being at peace with it or you will carry it forever. Let go. Even if someone chooses to fight, we still understand that we don't get to choose the end result, we're just trying to improve the odds and removing our self as a possible reason for the running (at least that's what I feel).
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By RCR:
Stop Fearing Monster!
Are you afraid of Monster? Do you avoid your MLCer because of your fear? Or maybe you avoid certain topics?
There are two main fears here.
Self-Protection [Standings thoughts: Here is where most people fall in mirror-work, and stay there. People all the time are talking about saving themselves exclusively]
Avoidance [Standings thoughts: Most LBS's do this, they can't stand their MLC'er and it's too painful. The article is talking about things not to do, or at least not to do for too long = Self-Protection and Avoidance]
Self-Protection
I don’t want to face what he will do or say.
I don’t want to hear it.
I don’t think I can handle it.
It seems that if I stay out of the eye of the storm it may save me from a lot of hurtful things that may be harder to forgive in the long run.
This is the initial common motivation for avoiding Monster. You don’t want to deal with what you will might feel. This can be a form of denial. If I don’t have to hear or see it, it’s not real. It’s how many avoid facing the affair and thus avoid healing from the betrayal.
I get it. I’ve been there. You don’t want to have to hear your MLCer tell you that the alienator is his soul mate. It’s not always about not wanting to hear valid blame that you don’t want to face, sometimes it’s just about not wanting to hear about his new feelings.
If a tree falls in the forest and no one is there to hear it, does it make a sound?
Whether your ears are open or not, he’s still feeling those feelings. That does not mean he’s interpreting his feelings correctly; in-fatuation is about hormones; but he doesn’t understand that.
No Contact is a form of self-protection, but are you using it as an avoidance that masks as self-protection. Monster can be volatile and distance is protective. Distance does protect you from hearing those hurtful things and it may even prevent those hurtful things from being verbalized.
But No Contact is not meant to keep you from hearing things that are unpleasant.
You don’t like what Monster has to say? Well, Monster doesn’t like what you have to say either. Are you avoiding listening to something that might include valid complaints? Or are you just staying away from spew? I know Monster can say hurtful things. But choosing to be hurt is within your control. Choosing to understand and acknowledge that those words are coming from Monster is within your control.
Avoidance
I am afraid of what he will do or say.
I’m afraid he will say he is going to file for divorce.
I’m afraid he will leave.
I’m afraid he won’t come back.
The elephant has been sitting in that room for months. You both tip toe around it. You don’t want it mad, it might start stomping. And worse, you don’t want it anxious because it might get an upset tummy and get gassy or (you know)…and do you don’t want an elephant accident as you are walking behind it! No, be careful of elephants and don’t rock boats.
And so if you have an at-home MLCer you live with the constant tension. If your MLCer lives somewhere else, you feel like you are in a state of limbo, not knowing what your life is now or will be in the future.
Is this working for you?
Maybe your MLCer will say he’s filing. Many say it without doing it. Maybe your MLCer will leave. Most leave and for most MLC situations that is probably what is needed for progress. If something doesn’t change—DUH—nothing will change.
So as it is now, you would rather have today’s misery than risk improvement because between now and that future improvement there may be a lot more hardship—and today’s misery is nothing compared to how much worse things may get.
I’m sorry. But that’s life. That’s how it is. I want to add that it’s not how I’d make life work if I could dictate it, but when I think further, that’s not true. Not anymore. It is through the challenges we face that we blossom into our fullest potential.
Throw some darts and maybe even some larger Truth Arrows. Initiate change.
I try to be positive, validating, and kind. If I get angry that activates him.
Niceness is wonderful; it is important in Paving the Way. But are you avoiding Truth Darts to such a degree that it often appears as though you are not merely accepting of the situation but that you are approving of it as well?
I understand the desire to avoid Monster, but you have been placating.
Paving the Way is about being cordial, but it is not about placating; it also includes Truth Darts. So where are the Truth Darts? Are your actions so kind, comforting and soothing that you are enabling the adultery and abandonment because there are no obstacles?
Practice Makes Growth
I don’t really want to talk to him. I am afraid he will slam me with Monster.
Good chance. So? What does that mean? What will happen if he slams you with Monster?
Will you die? Doubtful
Will you cry (in front of him)? Maybe
Will you react and escalate the argument? Maybe
Will it hurt? Probably
Will you feel agitated during and afterwards? Probably
Dealing with Monster teaches us how to interact in a difficult situation. You will get to practice responding rather than reacting. And yes, you will mess up; deal with it, learn from it and let it help you grow.
As you learn to be responsive rather than reactive you will be influencing by example. An MLCer may initially resist, but your responsiveness is a seed.
Worms
I knew he would be looking for a fight before too long; it’s my fault for taking the bait.
Just because he was looking for a fight does not mean you should always walk away or back down. Truth Darts aren’t bait and neither is telling him to go ahead and follow through on his threats. Do you keep thinking that you are biting worms and that you should back off when threatened by Monster or that you should avoid an encounter or topic if you think Monster will make an appearance.
MLCers make threats. They bait you. Are you a fish? Do you want to eat worms?
Like it or not the MLCer will test. So learning to respond without biting the bait is to your benefit.
Boundaries
Monster will test your boundaries, giving you the opportunity to practice maintaining them and remaining consistent. If your MLCer makes threats and your reaction is to concede, you are teaching him how to control you and get what he wants—which is not the same as what a person needs.
Keep practicing. You are going to bend and sometimes you will concede. So get back on that tightrope and the next time you will be better prepared able to maintain. Boundary maintenance improves with your growth.
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So to me...... Self-Protect is temporary. Heal, get up, get in there. Stand fast against the raging of the storm. Avoidance is bad news altogether. Out of sight, out of mind. The test isn't just about how bright you shine, it's that you shine near that MLC black hole so they can see your light. All of this requires us to get up and get close enough to our MLC'er that we are effective. If they come to us is up to them, so yeah.... detach...... that doesn't mean save yourself, run and hide.
Well, that was my interpretation.
-SS
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Self-Protection (Here is where most people fall in mirror-work, and stay there. People all the time are talking about saving themselves exclusively)
Avoidance (Most LBS's do this, they can't stand their MLC'er and it's too painful. The article is talking about things not to do, or at least not to do for too long = Self-Protection and Avoidance)
Standing, are the bolded words yours?
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Self-Protection (Here is where most people fall in mirror-work, and stay there. People all the time are talking about saving themselves exclusively)
Avoidance (Most LBS's do this, they can't stand their MLC'er and it's too painful. The article is talking about things not to do, or at least not to do for too long = Self-Protection and Avoidance)
Standing, are the bolded words yours?
Yup, those are mine.... the rest was just big things I took from it. Sorry for the confusion.
-SS
Ok, I put brackets on my thoughts so as not to confuse anyone. And turned them red, and put my name next to them. ;) Really respect RCR's work and didn't mean to be misleading or anything like that. You start typing and it makes sense to you, but someone on the other side...... you know: translation. Thank you so much for pointing that out to me.
I've gotta say too... that article and the "Stop Fearing Monster part 2" really shaped how I felt and dealt with MLC when I was brand-new and just trying to hang on. Sure wasn't easy, but it was necessary. Forever thankful and grateful to RCR for helping me in such a profound way.
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Thank you for clarifying that, Standing.
One can never be too careful. :)
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my two cents, FWIW..
I got here, three, four years ago? The tone of the forum in many ways was standing with an emphasis on the whole detaching and GALing; which is the ay it should be and it's the hardest thing for newbies to grasp. They (and me included then) wanted to hear that we should hold out for hope and maybe more subtly, if we do XYZ, we'll get them back.
Something changed though.. I think the long timers were getting tired of of saying GAL to the new people. Some people were saying they were being re triggered by the new people. I think it honestly turned into older, cool kids in the back of the bus and freshmen up front kind of thing. Some drama happened, some people announced they were leaving, some left without ceremony.
Then the language of the forum changed. We're supporting one another still, but now we're just saying "take care of you" and "protect your finances" and not "mirror work" and "paving the way". I see people helping people but what I don't see is people taking the language message of the website as verbatim as when I first joined. Maybe that's why people fell like we're not encouraging people to stand anymore.
I agree with Brain's summary in the first post. I don't hate my ex wife. I know what she's been through in her life.. I understand how she became this twisted monster she's being right now.
I maintain if I'm focusing on me and S and really doing mirror work, does anything else even matter? No.. you get to riding a bike without thinking about it. You've insulated yourself from the fear and worry of falling off and you're just doing it. That's all that matters. I think that's the point.
Me personally, I don't care for anything that suggests that you can somehow game the system or trick your MLCers into wanting you back. I'm not speaking of anything in particular, but i've read a lot of things that are just bad advice out there. Think of it this way, if you acted a certain way and your MLCer wanted to come home, would you want them home because you jedi mind tricked them or because they actually "woke up" did the work on themselves and wanted to come home?
Standing is about standing still or being a doormat. I always liked the idea that you can stand for you, as just a time out to do your own work.
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Standing is (NOT, I guess thats what you meant gman.) about standing still or being a doormat. I always liked the idea that you can stand for you, as just a time out to do your own work.
That would be a great reason to stand and probably the right way to get your feet back on the ground.
I agree with what morte said though, that is bang on imho. A sister from anothere mother ;)
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Interesting, gman, that you see a shift in perspective....sounds as if from your POV is it less about promoting NOT standing but more about less active promotion of standing? Or standing actions maybe?
Idk if I see it as my right or responsibility to encourage anyone to Stand or not. It's a complicated concept and a very personal choice that probably includes how you view Standing in your own situation. But I don't think I have ever suggested that someone should file for divorce or stop Standing either. I have definitely encouraged people to prioritise their own safety and sanity and financial security, to seek legal advice even if they are not ready to act on it and to limit their contact with things and people that are profoundly damaging to their wellbeing. And where there is significant physical or psychological abuse I think you need to get to a safe place first before you can figure out anything with a good working mind. I suppose that is bc my honest belief....which could be wrong....is that very little we LBS do has a significant constructive impact on what the MLC spouse says or does. But we probably can do things that limit the scale of the damage sometimes? And we can definitely choose not to do things that add to the damage, chaos or drama.
There is a period of time for many of us maybe when focusing on our own needs as a priority feels as if it is a choice to not care about our spouses at all, to reject them in order to choose ourselves...often at a time when we still feel married and that our spouse is a self-destructive distressed mess....so it feels like a very hard either/or choice for our hearts to make doesn't it?
I think most folks come here wanting to Stand and looking for some kind of hope that their marriage and family will survive it. As things unfold, each LBS walks their own path towards their own conclusions about all of it - their history, their spouse, MLC, what they need to survive, how to react to new challenges or info or events, how to live regardless of what their ex/spouse is doing, what to do, how to feel, what they believe, what they want from what seems to be available. No wonder it takes time lol.
I like Standers. I like stories of healing and healthy reconnection. I susoect though there is a v1 and v2 of Standing. V1 is where we all start and some of that is probably in lieu of not knowing what else to do. V1 keeps us upright enough to reach a point where we can make a more conscious decision in our own unique situation about v2 of Standing as a longer term choice perhaps.
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RCR is just one person, with one ''MLCer''
<snip>
So is RCR right? Well she was apparently right for HER situation. That doesn't mean she is right for every situation.
And even though she has lots of brilliant articles the next step is how people will interpret those articles, and then bend them to fit their own narrative.
Dang, girl, you already posted what I wanted to say!
I would like to add that RCR’s articles can also be used to justify LBS’s actions to explain (excuse) away controlling, fixing and, generally, condescending attitude toward their MLCer who must be ‘helped’ and ‘saved.’ In other words, to beef up one’s ego that he/she is being proactive and effective in pushing MLCer through the tunnel. Speaking from experience... :-[
My personal history:
The definitions of ‘monster’, ‘self protection’, ‘avoidance’, ‘truth darts’ were different for me as they had to be readjusted to my unique circumstances. Besides, H and I are not clones of RCR and Chuck. We are much older. Grown kids. Different R dynamics, personal/marital history, beliefs, etc etc.
For example, truth darts were a misfit for us. I ditched them altogether when I saw that was not me or H at all. They were viewed by us, pre-BD, as snarky, preach-y, condescending and mean. That’s just us, though. A sample of one!
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Standing, it seems odd that you have all these theories about handling monster when you don't even have a monstering MLCer.
I think it is important that this be said because someone could come along and read what you have to say in three years and think it is based on practical experience when it isn't.
As someone who had a very monster MLCer for a long time, the best way to deal with one is simply to avoid them when they are in monster mode. Refuse to interact, find your peace elsewhere. Nothing good will come of it and if they don't monster at you they will find someone else to monster at, so you aren't depriving them of anything they can't get elsewhere.
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Standing is (NOT, I guess thats what you meant gman.) about standing still or being a doormat. I always liked the idea that you can stand for you, as just a time out to do your own work.
That would be a great reason to stand and probably the right way to get your feet back on the ground.
I cant post much as my posts aint getting through the freedom of speech destroying mod web!
I agree with what morte said though, that is bang on imho. A sister from anothere mother ;)
Your edit is correct my friend!
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Just a random question to any moderator if you are reading. :)
Are the posts of those under moderation moderated by one person or do you need consensus of other mods?
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Interesting, gman, that you see a shift in perspective....sounds as if from your POV is it less about promoting NOT standing but more about less active promotion of standing? Or standing actions maybe?
Idk if I see it as my right or responsibility to encourage anyone to Stand or not. It's a complicated concept and a very personal choice that probably includes how you view Standing in your own situation. But I don't think I have ever suggested that someone should file for divorce or stop Standing either. I have definitely encouraged people to prioritise their own safety and sanity and financial security, to seek legal advice even if they are not ready to act on it and to limit their contact with things and people that are profoundly damaging to their wellbeing. And where there is significant physical or psychological abuse I think you need to get to a safe place first before you can figure out anything with a good working mind. I suppose that is bc my honest belief....which could be wrong....is that very little we LBS do has a significant constructive impact on what the MLC spouse says or does. But we probably can do things that limit the scale of the damage sometimes? And we can definitely choose not to do things that add to the damage, chaos or drama.
There is a period of time for many of us maybe when focusing on our own needs as a priority feels as if it is a choice to not care about our spouses at all, to reject them in order to choose ourselves...often at a time when we still feel married and that our spouse is a self-destructive distressed mess....so it feels like a very hard either/or choice for our hearts to make doesn't it?
I think most folks come here wanting to Stand and looking for some kind of hope that their marriage and family will survive it. As things unfold, each LBS walks their own path towards their own conclusions about all of it - their history, their spouse, MLC, what they need to survive, how to react to new challenges or info or events, how to live regardless of what their ex/spouse is doing, what to do, how to feel, what they believe, what they want from what seems to be available. No wonder it takes time lol.
I like Standers. I like stories of healing and healthy reconnection. I susoect though there is a v1 and v2 of Standing. V1 is where we all start and some of that is probably in lieu of not knowing what else to do. V1 keeps us upright enough to reach a point where we can make a more conscious decision in our own unique situation about v2 of Standing as a longer term choice perhaps.
Treasur, I agree.. I was just saying I think the language of the forum changed from the specific standing / MLC specific language on the website, to one of just general support. Like you're saying, we've all been through this and we're here either way and it's not our business to tell you one thing or another. That's where I feel the tone of the forum has gone in the time I've been here.
I guess the drama on the forum will always be persistent. However, just because people give plain support, that doesn't mean that anyone is saying you can't have hope, love your monstering MLCer, get divorced or whatever you choose. We just want people to be safe and to take care of their well being, all the way around.
I think that can be interpreted by some as encouraging a "not standing" message, however the one thing I do agree with is that the "what are you doing for you?" message can seem like one to abandon your MLCer and that's not true. It just means, you need to heal yourself before you can even begin to think about moving onto the next step, whatever that is, for you.
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Just a random question to any moderator if you are reading. :)
Are the posts of those under moderation moderated by one person or do you need consensus of other mods?
Approval of a moderated post can be done by any single Mod if, after review, they find no violations of the Code. Removal or denial of a post is done by consensus of at least 2 or more Mods in order to avoid any form of personal bias or censorship.
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Just a random question to any moderator if you are reading. :)
Are the posts of those under moderation moderated by one person or do you need consensus of other mods?
Approval of a moderated post can be done by any single Mod if, after review, they find no violations of the Code. Removal or denial of a post is done by consensus of at least 2 or more Mods in order to avoid any form of personal bias or censorship.
Thank you very much for the clarification, UM!
Good to know.
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I was just saying I think the language of the forum changed from the specific standing / MLC specific language on the website, to one of just general support. Like you're saying, we've all been through this and we're here either way and it's not our business to tell you one thing or another. That's where I feel the tone of the forum has gone in the time I've been here.
This is why I started this thread. It felt to me like there was a huge gap between the spirit of the articles on the website and the spirit of the forum. It felt to me like the forum was going in a different direction than that suggested by the articles on the website. Which made me wonder if the general belief of the forum members now is that RCR and her articles are wrong about MLC being a crisis that changes the person going through it and takes time to resolve.
Was RCR right when she wrote the following overview of MLC? If so, are these beliefs reflected in the discussions and advice given on this forum?
There are many who witness the Cycling and Chaotic behaviour and conclude that Midlifers know exactly what they are doing. Since the behaviour cycles, there are pockets of rationale and clarity. Some are able to compartmentalize their lives, functioning at work and other activities away from the home. It is not that the Midlifers do not care, but rather that they must shield themselves from caring. They feel they must do whatever it is they are doing even when internally admitting it is wrong. They steel themselves emotionally; but they are not without guilt; rather I believe that for many it is the opposite. Their guilt is so immense that the burden is overwhelming. They are running from the demons within themselves and from the burdening reminders of guilt from the spouse, whether she is actively laying guilt or not. In addition, OWs add guilt by forcing responsibility for their happiness and success on the midlifer, and then by punishing him when he cycles between her and his wife.
Midlifers are not always aware of their actions. There is an awareness within each moment, but a global absence of awareness; this only becomes clear later. Driven by emotions, Midlifers are moment and self focused and often unable to link consequences and understand the relation of their behaviour to the external world. Their memory becomes fuzzy; though they may be aware of their actions during each present moment, in clarity they may not recall what takes place during fog and vice versa.
From the Overview article.
https://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/mlc_overview.html (https://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/mlc_overview.html)
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RCR is very, very intelligent.
“Wrong” or “right”, I think we can all agree on that.
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I wonder, Brain, if some of us lose our initial belief in MLC over time or as a consequence of events? Which is ok if we do but maybe those of us further down the line might be encouraged by this thread to honestly look at that. Bc it probably shades our posts especially if we are responding to others.
I don't know what I think about MLC now tbh. Either generally or with regard to my xh.
I think I cycle and end up feeling I just don't know. I do see the patterns in others stories and it seems much easier to see MLC type Bonkers and script in some of them. So tbh I am inconsistent in my own thinking about MLC and about how I see others situations and my own experience.
The gift of time is detachment, a less rose-coloured eye and less pain, that's true.
The disadvantage of time perhaps is that it becomes less easy to remember the old normal and the sharp shock of the WTF times. I know that initially I had no doubt that something very weird had happened to my then h. And when I was exposed to his irrational or strange behaviour, it was easier to see some kind of MLC like crisis. And when we were still married to hope that my h would return to someone who was more recognisable and more normal. Ha, crazy times :)
But after divorce, a long period of limited contact with a vanisher that became NC.....the only evidence of it, good and bad, is in my memory. And I often doubt my memory now. It is the last great LBS puzzle piece perhaps, deciding for yourself how to describe what really happened in your life. But I can see that my own doubt probably does, without it being a conscious intention, pull me away from HS/MLC flavoured responses and towards ones that focus on the more tangible needs of an LBS who is struggling with anxiety say or trying to protect their kids from distress or feeling tortured by contact with a boomerang that is making them feel worse or a spouse who is trashing their finances. These things are easier to see as priorities for someone in pain to deal with or heal from regardless of whether you think MLC is the reason or not aren't they?
But your thread has prompted me to think about what I believe now. Or don't. And how that might subtly shade my responses or posts. Even to wonder if there is a point in time, if one decides that one no longer believes in MLC enough, that it might be appropriate for some older timers like me (if that is what I conclude about my own beliefs) to step away from posting on an MLC focused site even if your intentions are good. Idk.
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But after divorce, a long period of limited contact with a vanisher that became NC.....the only evidence of it, good and bad, is in my memory. And I often doubt my memory now.
This is a great observation, specially in light of the shock, the completely irrational behaviour, all the WTF moments. One thing I started very early on was to keep a running journal of my interactions with my wife, and that invaluable in many ways. First it helped me keep my thoughts straight, specially in the early confused and puzzled days. And now every so often, when I start to doubt my own assessment and revert my wife to her "old normal" self and wonder did I just simply make it all up it makes for a great refresher to remind me, no, this was NOT normal.
And reading the journal along with looking at old pictures and more recent pictures and the look in my wifes face really drives home how this IS NOT the same person, not the same psychologically coherent person, and is a highly fractured and disordered person.
So I urge every newbie to keep a journal of sorts, as it may one day help them keep the reality more in line with what really happened. Otherwise we will tend to drift as you said.
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But after divorce, a long period of limited contact with a vanisher that became NC.....the only evidence of it, good and bad, is in my memory. And I often doubt my memory now.
Treasur, I'm sorry that you doubt your memory but there's a very good reason for you to do so. The mind's top priority is survival. That's how I became what I am today. When I was little my mind dissociated and then fractured my personality in order to protect me from overwhelming trauma. It protected me from having to acknowledge the reality of the situation I was experiencing so that I could survive without becoming, as my therapist put it, "truly crazy".
BD is also an occasion where we experience overwhelming trauma. It becomes easier to deal with if you can convince yourself as time goes by that your memories of life before BD are wrong. It's a survival mechanism. It reduces the pain and makes it easier to go on living. It might be helpful for long term LBSes but it isn't helpful for newcomers if rewriting your memories of a good marriage and good spouse before BD takes away from your ability to acknowledge the huge change they've seen in their MLCer.
Great observation Marvin. I have a home movie I made about 10 years ago that has my wife in it. At one point she turns toward me and the camera and I can clearly see the person she was and I know without a doubt that she loved me.
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have a home movie I made about 10 years ago that has my wife in it. At one point she turns toward me and the camera and I can clearly see the person she was and I know without a doubt that she loved me.
And this is SO crucial imho, in light of the absolute and confusing statements they tend to say. My wife threw everything from "ILYBINILWY", to "I never loved you", to "you repulse me." And considering we, at the time, still see these broken variant with the same power and trust and they are allowed so far into our inner world how can we NOT doubt ourselves. As you said yourself our minds NEED to create a coherent story of what is happening, so one version is we also may start rewriting the past. This is very much like children in dysfunctional families who at some level realize their parent are not ok and not safe, but have to rewrite the experience and put it on themselves to be able to survive.
I also look back and see pictures and remember events, and people who knew us very well, and there was NO DOUBT how much she loved me before she fractured. Its just hard to hold the truth when confronted with the avalanche of rewriting they do in an attempt to make coherent their own conflicted inner selves.
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There are many who witness the Cycling and Chaotic behaviour and conclude that Midlifers know exactly what they are doing. Since the behaviour cycles, there are pockets of rationale and clarity. Some are able to compartmentalize their lives, functioning at work and other activities away from the home. It is not that the Midlifers do not care, but rather that they must shield themselves from caring. They feel they must do whatever it is they are doing even when internally admitting it is wrong. They steel themselves emotionally; but they are not without guilt; rather I believe that for many it is the opposite. Their guilt is so immense that the burden is overwhelming. They are running from the demons within themselves and from the burdening reminders of guilt from the spouse, whether she is actively laying guilt or not. In addition, OWs add guilt by forcing responsibility for their happiness and success on the midlifer, and then by punishing him when he cycles between her and his wife.
Midlifers are not always aware of their actions. There is an awareness within each moment, but a global absence of awareness; this only becomes clear later. Driven by emotions, Midlifers are moment and self focused and often unable to link consequences and understand the relation of their behaviour to the external world. Their memory becomes fuzzy; though they may be aware of their actions during each present moment, in clarity they may not recall what takes place during fog and vice versa.
I hesitate to post what I am about to write with the doubt and negativity I have read on shocked sis's thread about being in mlc...
In may of 2015 I suffered a pretty serious heart attack,my w stayed by my side for 5 days in icu...6 months later she would be gone and well into the tunnel of mlc...In the few years leading up that I now know I was in a pretty rough mlt,anger,an ea online and just general unrest...
Now I can plainly see I was who I was...a man in a serious mlt...do I remember it all?...no,but most of it...enough of it to tell you that RCR is pretty much spot on..
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RCR's description of the MLCer is as valid to me today as it was when I first read it in 2010.
I see his crisis, and have always identified with it as a "dis-ease" ..not a sickness or an illness...but something that lead to the fracturing of who he was and who he is now....the suddenness and the lack of any warning is what I have always turned back to ...but I have rarely questioned if he is in a crisis or not.
I do have contact with him and that always gives me some insight. I think the contact really helps me to understand better what has happened to him.
My memories of our marriage are definitely the ones I had before BD. I have not rewritten those 32 years. I have looked more closely and can see some of the areas that could have been improved...none, in my mind, that ever warranted the ending of our marriage. Nothing that could not have been worked out and resolved.
This has not prevented me from growing and living a satisfactory life. I still love him. I have always stated that just because he left, he had a crisis and his feelings changed does not mean that I had to change my beliefs about us or the marriage that we had or the love that we once shared.
RCR's articles are still gold in my mind to understand what happened...and with that understanding, allow me to be compassionate to someone I love who also did not get a say in this crisis hitting him. His actions are perhaps a different thing..more under his control...but the actual crisis happened due to a multitude of factors.
Reading accounts from MLCers once they have come through the tunnel helps me to see that this is not just a terrible tragedy for the LBSer but as well for the MLCer. That will upset some people and perhaps start another argument...I will say this is how I think about MLC and RCR's articles support what I have experienced. Most people outside of MLC land do not see what I have seen in my spouse and few understand if I try and explain because it has not happened to them.
But, the times I have been with other LBSers or spoken to them has always also given me the gift that they know...they too know how totally unreal this has all been and continues to be.
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Most people do not see what I have seen in my spouse and few understand if I try and explain because it has not happened to them.
But, the times I have been with other LBSers or spoken to them has always also given me the gift that they know...they too know how totally unreal this has all been and continues to be.
Thats the thing xyzcf,You know what you know...
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For me, RCR has been right. Not every part of every article she's written can be applied to my situation, but the ones that do, have been very close to my reality.
And not only, her articles have gotten me to the place I'm at now. I mean about myself, my personal growth, my finally being me. I would not be where I am today without RCR's (and HB) articles. I was re-reading some of RCR's articles tonight, and they only get better the more I read them, or the longer I'm at this. She also has a very non-judgemental way of writing that makes me feel at ease. I don't feel accused, attacked. Her voice sounds wise yet humble.
For me, RCR's articles are extremely valuable.
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I also believe RCR has been right, and her research and writings have been invaluable to me.
She has written so much however, that it can easily be cherry-picked. By anyone.
I think that one of the huge ideas RCR touched on that is almost completely ignored by standers and non-standers alike, is that the MLC'er can progress the entire length of their crisis, heal, reintegrate and all that, and STILL make the choice to not return.
I believe this choice can be made regardless of whether the LBS has detached, done mirror-work, or paved a way.
I feel that as the forum ages, and the space between old-timer and newbie increases, a generation gap forms. Many old timers no longer have the patience to allow newbies time for their own process. I feel it is ESSENTIAL for a newbie to spend some time obsessing over the mlc'er, the ow, the events that led to the destruction of their lives, and I truly feel that there is a distinct heavy-handedness with the GAL 2X4s.
2x4s can be useful, but not as often as people think, in my opinion. To me they smack of fixing, controlling, projecting. Especially if they are made without gentleness and compassion.
How much time the newbie spends in mlc'er obsession is the newbie's choice. Sometimes this wallowing behavior is necessary. Heck, sometimes this wallowing behavior IS THE PROCESS.
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I dont think that we tend to stop believing in MLC after a time. I do believe that many LBS reach a Point where it is just too much, too much has happened or a boundry hasnt been respected.
I dropped my Stand the day where XW and I were sat together at the bank, we had just signed over our house. She opened her purse Right infront of me so that I could see a pic of OM in there. We had got on fine that day but this was an act of poor Evil, she knew exactly what she was doing and also knew how it would effect me.
My lawyers office was only 100m away, I left the bank, said goodbye, went across the road and filed for our D. Ihave to be honest, it was one of the best feelings i have ever had, there was a MASSIVE weight lifted in that moment.
Guys, I hope that you dont mind me using you as examples but you have said it yourselves often enough.
UM:- his "deadline" was the D. He always said once Divorced his stand stops.
Thunder:- has often said that if there was an OW she wouldnt have stood, her boundry was an OP which most of us are dealing with and still stand.
We are all different and all have our boundrys, everybody is capable of dropping their stand once that boundry is crossed. Then we flip our own little swich I guess.
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Steel, I am very much in agreement with some of your comments, specifically that an LBS should be allowed that time to focus on her MLCer and the OW. I do believe it's part of the process. Even the oldies that come on and sound as if they're shouting at people to stop focussing, did focus themselves at first.
At first, and not only, we are starving to learn what happened, to understand why we hadn't been able to predict what would happen to our marriages, our family. And it wasn't a natural disaster that we must mourn and accept, we were part of the dynamic. This is one of the hard lessons. There are two people in this crisis at BD.
Even once I discovered HS, HB, and the other many sources of information on MLC, they weren't always easy to grasp the first time. I found I had to read and re-read the articles over and over. Even the books on MLC are not as easy to understand as they appear. It can take years to grasp the subtleties of this crisis. Some people have more time to read, others can grasp concepts faster than others, some people are just in such deep pain they move forward at a slower pace, but it is my belief, that you can't force anyone to stop doing something; they have to reach that place themselves.
Actually, focussing on my MLCer, MLC, OW brought me to a point of being bored by the subject, plus a feeling of it being pointless because I'd tried everything I could and nothing worked. That is a lesson. If I'd just stopped because others didn't want me to, it might have worked, but I don't think I would have learned. I feel I would have been at risk of finding myself with those emotions to deal with again in the future.
I say let people do whatever they need to do. Once someone gives advice they think is important, they cannot force the other person to take it. However, if after the advice is given, the LBS is left alone, I do believe that when the doubts start creeping in her head, that advice could add a certain weight, it becomes validation of her new thoughts.
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Good post, Milly.
So true, about reading the articles over and over again. They don't sink in for a long time..but eventually they make so much sense and you really start to understand what happened to our spouses had nothing to do with us.
Xyzcf I agree with you, it is hard on the MLCer too.
I've always said..who in their right mind would choose to go into a crisis and blow up their whole family? Losing homes and retirement accounts...and sometimes their children.
No normal person I know.
I saw the deep depression in my H. He was not a happy man.
He even said one day.."This has been the worst 2 years of my life." I asked why that was and he said.."Well the divorce and all."
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Yes, Thunder, but some (even many) MLCers don’t lose homes and retirement accounts. Some lose nothing material, or very little.
Again this just highlights that we all often speak from where we’re at and also from our experience. And many have experienced being so screwed over financially...and this is leading down a road to a conversation that caused a massive explosive weeks-long exhausting blow up before so I’m just going to stop right there.
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No your right Nas, some don't lose much financially. Some LBS's have a good income.
Sometimes it's even the MLCer who loses financially.
I just meant more the other things, blowing up a 20/25 year decent marriage, alienating their kids..or downright ignoring them, losing jobs they had for years, bringing their morals down to the level of a dog therefore losing respect.
Just blow up their lives.
Those are things any decent person would not want to do.
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What I find fascinating about RCR's writings is that each time I return to them, I see something new or extra validation.
It's almost like the eyes in a portrait; when you visit a stately home and the eyes in a portrait seem to be looking at you from every direction.
I have never wavered from thinking that RCR has done a cracking job in informing us all of this devastating life challenge that we face.
Yes stats change and develop as more and more information comes our way and yes the concept of MLCers, their actions etc broadens as we discover increasingly different ways that MLCers behave but the reality is that they do follow a script, the LBS has much to learn and to grow and thanks to RCR and her articles all of us can benefit to suit us at that specific moment in time.
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I have always found HB's writings to be generally more pertinent to my situation. RCR has a few good pieces that are relevant to me, but the one I returned to over and over on a daily basis was HB.
That said, I find RCR's forum to be far more useful than HB's.
I really don't see why forum membership is being linked to how useful we find RCR's writings. The forum is not about RCR's wisdom. It's about the collective wisdom of all members.
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I dont think that we tend to stop believing in MLC after a time. I do believe that many LBS reach a Point where it is just too much, too much has happened or a boundry hasnt been respected.
We are all different and all have our boundrys, everybody is capable of dropping their stand once that boundry is crossed. Then we flip our own little swich I guess.
I think this is a very important point. No one comes to this website intending to NOT stand, or to convince others not to. There just comes a point when you have to choose...yourself or your MLCer. While they are in MLC you can not have both.
What I find fascinating about RCR's writings is that each time I return to them, I see something new or extra validation.
I think this really reiterates what I said previously. No matter how many times you (in general, not you specifically song :)) read something, it will always resonate and highlight with the parts you CURRENTLY want it to. Your brain will focus and pick out the things you find relevant. Then you bend the information in your mind to suit your wants. The things that don't apply you mentally ignore or throw away...or notice later when you are more self aware.
I really don't see why forum membership is being linked to how useful we find RCR's writings. The forum is not about RCR's wisdom. It's about the collective wisdom of all members.
This.