Midlife Crisis: Support for Left Behind Spouses
Archives => Archived Topics => Topic started by: crazyforhim on September 20, 2011, 10:05:28 AM
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Where can i get more info on the Alienator and why they stay in such a messed up relationship. Why don't they leave?
Can someone enlighten me on some past experiences or more details.
I think the more I understand the stronger I become.....
Very liberating!!
Thanks for all your input
CFH
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There could be any number of reasons.
They could believe the lies that your spouse tells them about you -- that you don't understand them, that they were never truly in love with you, or that they only married you for the kids.
The could be after your spouse's money, or family connections. They could have self-esteem issues or family-of-origin issues; maybe they came from a broken home of their own and think that breaking up families is "normal". (Given the divorce rate, that's not too far-fetched...)
Out of curiosity, why do you think that knowing more about the OP will help? Of all of the people that get mixed up in the MLC antics, the OP is the last person I would concern myself with...
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CFH
If you sign up for the blog you can download a copy of a very good article on the affair and personality disorders. You should find that it answers many of the questions you are raising and should be read alongside the infidelity articles on this forum. Everything you need to know is contained in these articles; however, SS is correct. In the end the OW is not the important person here.
http://loveanyway.theherosspouse.com/
CrazyStuff
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Hi CS,
I need to believe that! Hard though when H tells my S a couple of weeks ago that he ran away from me...because he "fell in love with OW" and has now been living with her since December 2010....... Onwards.....
Foxy xxxx
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Foxy,
Just remember it is Onwards for us and Downhill for them.
The key is to not get too close to the drama as after a while it really is all the same plus we are too busy....
See you soon,
CrazyStuff
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I guess it's not that I want to know more about the OW- it's understanding the relationship that helps- if that makes sense.
Maybe in a wierd way the worse it is over there- the better I feel.
But I understand Foxy when you say you assume it's all wonderful and you can't get images out of your head.
It's hard, just trying to understand.
I did read in the blog about the CB- my exH is such a CB!!!
I feel I have come a long way but still some detaching to do! Help!
Thanks a bunch everyone.
:)
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crazyforhim
You may already know of the articles....there is a series called Betrayed: Dealing with Infidelity that has several articles that may have some insight for you. I have linked one of them below.
http://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/standing-actions_dealing-with-infidelity_woman-scorned2.html
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They could believe the lies that your spouse tells them about you -- that you don't understand them, that they were never truly in love with you, or that they only married you for the kids.
I've always found this reason hard to stick. Unless the alienator does not think, how come someone is going to believe a person spends decades with another person and was not happy with them? Also, when the alienator knows the couple some of the lies may be also hard to believe. Except, of course, if you are deluded and so “in love” that you can not see past what they are telling you.
The going for the money, family or social connections makes more sense to me. Or they simply fall, or thought they had fall, in love and our spouses played along.
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AnneJ
This is from the article I linked in the previous post.
She is too focused on her own selfish needs and on the lies the MLCer has told about you. She knows that you've been a bad wife and don't deserve him. This is your fault, he wouldn't have left you if you were a good wife, therefore you deserve this--so No, she doesn't care that she is hurting you. Let her obsess about you; let her become jealous and controlling.
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Dontgive up, O know she/he does not care about the LBS. But it is not logical to believe such stuff. If someone who has being married/in a relashionsip come to me and started saying all those things about theirs spouse I would be a bit suspicious. If it was a member of a couple I knew I would be even more suspicious.
Yes, sometimes terribel things happen between a couple and no one knows. Because no one knows what happens behind closed doors... but... come on, if a man or woman leave their spouse, not just because there is someone else, but also start have behavious that are very odd for their age, or do strange things, like Thundarr?s wife that is walking aways from her elderly parents, you (the alienator) need to start making questions. Not because the alienator cares about the LBs but because ot the alienator her/him self.
And what about the spouse that leaves, there is OW/OM and then leaves OW/OM and gets another OW/OM? OW/OM nº 1 were their dream but then they are not and we (the alienator nº 2) are their true love? Kind of reaaly, really hard to swallow. Or you are only swallowing it because you want to.
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AnneJ
"But it is not logical to believe such stuff."
"If someone who has being married/in a relashionsip come to me and started saying all those things about theirs spouse I would be a bit suspicious."
I agree. The alienator is not operating on logic (and of course neither is the MLCer) from the basic standpoint of being involved with a married person or even recently divorced person. RCR also has articles about the personality disorders that are sometimes seen in the alienator as well.
And, like you mentioned, the infatuation or "in love" feelings play their part too. So when these things are all taken into consideration, it's no wonder the MLCer/alienator relationship rarely lasts.
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I think it has alot to do with their personality...I believe my H's OW has some sort of personality disorder..
She claims to have been molested as a child by her uncle and her mom knew about it and did nothing, also that she
divorced an abusive/alcoholic man 2 years ago...and OW claims to have ALOT of health issues...Cancer, lung issues, depression, fibermilagia (sp) and takes all kinds of meds...I say she is the poster girl for being the Mistress in distress! ha!
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Dontgiveup, well, the relashionships do last. It would make sense if such relashionships lasted 2, 3 months, maybe 6. But they do last years and more than many of non MLCer people. OW2 is lasting for more than 3 years. There are marriages that last less.
I have no idea if any of husband's OW had a peronality disorder. Just know that OW2 is the perfect and right woman to the current version of my husband. Maybe that is why she is OW2! ;D The one willing to live that regressive too young livestyle of his, the one who is happy with her party boy boyfriend. Good for her and for him. Meanwhile, I'll be very, very away from that insane over fast type of life. 8)
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I've mentioned it before but www.baggereclaim.com will give you an insight into why people become OW in relationships and the personality traits a lot of them share. There is a forum on there where OW talk about how they extracate themselves - it's a useful site to read as it focuses on how to have healthy relationships and is pro intelligent choices and good self esteem
P
x
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"the relashionships do last."
Here's a blog from RCR on the subject
http://loveanyway.theherosspouse.com/?paged=10
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Dontgiveup, well, the relashionships do last.
50% of first marriages end in divorce,
the article that DGU posted says 75% of affair marriages fail (strike two)
So you are talking about the 25% here - Anne?
Is that the ones that last?
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"the relashionships do last."
Here's a blog from RCR on the subject
http://loveanyway.theherosspouse.com/?paged=10
I've read that feature.
My reasoning is that more than 3 years is more than many marriages between people who were never married before last. Given the insanity of MLC one would expect such relashionships to be very short term. But they are not.
"Most affairs do not result in marriage and of those that do most will end in divorce." True. But it does not make much of a difference if the marriage that resulted from affair ended or not in divorce. The marriage that did not resulted from infidelity also had ended in divorce.
"...and the more liaisons a person had, the more likely it was that they would not remain married to the first spouse. "
I think this is so. The more people you have relashionships with the least change of remaining married to the first spouse.
"There is a greater likelihood that the divorcing partner will be back with the original spouse in five years than that the romantic affair will be a stable marriage at that time.5"
Maybe true. However, imagine me. I have been on this for 5 years. Lets imagine it takes one more to divorce to be final. That makes 6. Even if it only take husband a year after divorce to be back I do not think I will be available. Sorry, too much time has passed.
At the present moment there has been more time with husband has a vanisher than as clinging boomerang/boomerang. The man is a complete stranger to me. And he will need a lot of time to heal and change. Each day I find it more and more difficult that a reconciliation, even if after divorce, will happen.
Still, this is about the alienator. It really makes no sense to spend 3 or so years of our life with a married man/woman. Nor wanting a person who does not mind living the spouse for us.
However, there are always exceptions. Sometimes OW (in the two cases I know not from MLC) lasted long, or as long, as the wife. In both cases the man did divorce the wife and OW become wife nº 2. Those relashionships have been lasting for more than 30 years. Still, it was not MLC.
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Dontgiveup, well, the relashionships do last.
50% of first marriages end in divorce,
the article that DGU posted says 75% of affair marriages fail (strike two)
So you are talking about the 25% here - Anne?
Is that the ones that last?
I'm not talking about marrying the alienator. I'm saying that these relashionships with the alienator do last more than many marriages between people that marry for the first time or that many relashionships that did not begin with infidelity.
Many relashionships that did not begin with infidelity last less than 2 years. Sometimes they last 3 or 4, marriages includes. However a relashionship between an MLCer and an alienator can last as long or more.
That does not makes much sense. At least not to me...
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Anna- My dad married his OW...They were having an affair for about 8 years, even though we suspect it was more like 10 years..
When my mom found out, she filed for Divorce...my dad didnt want one....BUT, he didnt want to give up OW either...When my mom
filed...and left, my Dad moved in his OW and they married shortly after the D was final....like a month after..UGH!
My dad has been married to her now for about...10 years and HE is miserable and UNhappy...but, he also feels stuck because he thinks
he cant leave the OW now because of Money...and my dad is now 70 yrs old. so even if they stayed married...doesnt mean they are happy at all..
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One of the man I know that married other OW is my uncle. He is happier with her than he was with my aunt at the time he left. He would not had been happy if he had stayed married with my aunt. Even my aunt says that. But one never knows, maybe they can end up together many years from now. My aunt has been having a boyfriend for the past 14 years so I'm not seing that happening...
But, again, it does not matter if they are happy or not. The thing is those relashionships can last. Saying that they can't is leading people to believe that those relashionships always fail. They don't.
Of course most of them are going to feel stuck, miserable and unhappy. In case of MLC is that thing of the LBS as move on, because the LBS was ready, and the MLC was still in the crisis. The times do not match.
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50% of first marriages end in divorce,
the article that DGU posted says 75% of affair marriages fail (strike two)
I'm gonna use this again, Op. So 50% of marriages fail and 75% of affair marriages fail. That is just only more 25% of regular marriages. Or, if you prefer, 50% or marriages that did not start of affair fail, some of them because of affair.
so, 50% of non affair marriages survives and 25% of affair marriages survive. The rate of survival of marriages that started without an affair is too low.
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"One of the man I know that married other OW is my uncle. He is happier with her than he was with my aunt at the time he left. He would not had been happy if he had stayed married with my aunt. Even my aunt says that."
This sounds perhaps like a marriage issue vs MLC.
"The thing is those relashionships can last. Saying that they can't is leading people to believe that those relashionships always fail. They don't."
Didn't say they cant' last or always fail.....they don't always fail. The blog and articles say they rarely last. That means a few do last....the ones that last are in the minority.
"because the LBS was ready, and the MLC was still in the crisis. The times do not match."
You are correct. Below is part of the article Stories and Human Behavior. Often the LBS does move on. This website is in part designed to help the LBS gain an understanding of the MLC process.
"An MLCer may become stuck, but those are the rare cases. More common is for a person to regret their actions--often when they are too late because the spouse has closed the opportunity for marital reconciliation."
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I believe that the reason an affair relationship can last has a lot to do with whether there is a standing spouse, whether the MLCer feels he has done too much damage to return.... a lack of trust and forgiveness.... not to make it all the LBS's fault, because it's not...
My own husband has confessed that if I won't have him back he will be "stuck with OW".... now he is saying he will NEVER stay with OW for life, but if I won't have him, he will have to find another woman right away.... he cannot be alone.
My friend's Dad left her Mom and married his affair partner (young secretary) 25 years ago. The alienator immediately got pregnant in order to either legitimize the realtionship and stake out her territory, or simply because young childless women might want to have children... something the older MLCer never things of as a consequence, hahahaha!! They leave their families to be waited on and adored by a young woman, only to become displaced by a new baby... but I digress... anyway, her Mom has also had a boyfriend for about 15 years and says "no way" to the idea of her ex husband.... however, my friend says her Dad, though content, has expressed MANY TIMES that he would prefer getting back together with her Mother... In their case, he is content enough, and unwilling to upset the apple cart and start all over again...
So, of course the affair relationship can last.... I believe it is the MLC affair that rarely lasts, because it is the perfect storm coming together of two F'd up people!! If one gets well, or wants to get well... that ends it. My husband has woken up to discover his OW doesn't have any redeeming qualities, other than she works a lot and "I guess that's a good quality... maybe I should think about it some more... surely there is SOMETHING about her I like...." :o and he said this to me with a straight face! :o
The reason the MLC affair lasts so long is because it is an emotionally bonded affair.... in a "normal" affair, it is all about the fun of secrecy, and once it is exposed to the light of day, the two parties generally decide IMMEDIATELY they didn't want to lose their marriage, home, family, job, reputation... they only wanted a little fun on the side for awhile... exposing the affair generally busts it up right away... not so with an MLCer.... they are in a romantic, fairy tale fog..... I think Mamma Bear's BIL described the affair as "The first 6 months it's all fairy dust and lalalala... then after that.... it's no fun, but you can't get out..."
I also imagine the reason so many marriages IN GENERAL don't last is the propensity to encourage people to chase "personal happiness" at any cost...
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Hey LG,
my dad has said MANY times too....that he would go back to my mom in a heartbeat...I personally think he was going through MLC...note the timing...he is 70 now..affair started when he was 50..go figure...now he is STUCK!
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My dad has been married to her now for about...10 years and HE is miserable and UNhappy...but, he also feels stuck because he thinks
he cant leave the OW now because of Money...and my dad is now 70 yrs old. so even if they stayed married...doesnt mean they are happy at all..
SO Anne here is one of the 25% that survived.
I believe that the reason an affair relationship can last has a lot to do with whether there is a standing spouse, whether the MLCer feels he has done too much damage to return.... a lack of trust and forgiveness.... not to make it all the LBS's fault, because it's not...
I agree with LG, sometimes this is just the way it goes.
And Anne if you are telling me it is a bad bet to be married, well I think I agree with you.
But I know that I had a good marriage and wonderful children pre MLC.
And NOTHING is ever going to take that away from me.
As far as considering a marriage for 2 or 3 years a success, that I am not so sure about.
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Dontgiveup, it was marriage issues. They were 30 years old by then. No MLC.
I believe that the reason an affair relationship can last has a lot to do with whether there is a standing spouse, whether the MLCer feels he has done too much damage to return.... a lack of trust and forgiveness.... not to make it all the LBS's fault, because it's not...
Or because they are not done with the crisis and are still emotionall atached to the alienator, I would say. And yes, sometimes they have done too much damage to come back. Not just to the LBS but to the families. I have forgived my husband. As well as OW1 and Ow2. No point in holding a grunge against them. As for trusting him...I have no idea. We are, again, in the middle of a fault divorce that he started, so, too early to know that. But I don not think it is the LBS fault if the affair last.
My own husband has confessed that if I won't have him back he will be "stuck with OW".... now he is saying he will NEVER stay with OW for life, but if I won't have him, he will have to find another woman right away.... he cannot be alone.
If he says that if you don't take him back he will have to find another woman right away because he cannot be alone, his he not emotionally blackmailing you? Sounds like he is... I suspect mine can not be alone also. Because when OW1 was goen he come knocking on the door, so to speak, asking if I did not wanted to be is girfriend. I said no.
My friend's Dad left her Mom and married his affair partner (young secretary) 25 years ago. The alienator immediately got pregnant in order to either legitimize the realtionship and stake out her territory, or simply because young childless women might want to have children... something the older MLCer never things of as a consequence, hahahaha!! They leave their families to be waited on and adored by a young woman, only to become displaced by a new baby... but I digress... anyway, her Mom has also had a boyfriend for about 15 years and says "no way" to the idea of her ex husband.... however, my friend says her Dad, though content, has expressed MANY TIMES that he would prefer getting back together with her Mother... In their case, he is content enough, and unwilling to upset the apple cart and start all over again...
Young childless women do sometimes want to have children! ;D Someone should tell that to all those MLCers that change the wife for a much younger woman! :P
So, of course the affair relationship can last.... I believe it is the MLC affair that rarely lasts, because it is the perfect storm coming together of two F'd up people!! If one gets well, or wants to get well... that ends it. My husband has woken up to discover his OW doesn't have any redeeming qualities, other than she works a lot and "I guess that's a good quality... maybe I should think about it some more... surely there is SOMETHING about her I like...." :o and he said this to me with a straight face! :o
Yes, an affair can last.. MLC affairs probably not. I've though about that. What happens if one of them wakes up and wants to get well or change livestyle? Mine will proabbly wake up to find that is OW2 has the same only qualities her your husnad one, she works a lot. And parties a lot as well!
The reason the MLC affair lasts so long is because it is an emotionally bonded affair.... in a "normal" affair, it is all about the fun of secrecy, and once it is exposed to the light of day, the two parties generally decide IMMEDIATELY they didn't want to lose their marriage, home, family, job, reputation... they only wanted a little fun on the side for awhile... exposing the affair generally busts it up right away... not so with an MLCer.... they are in a romantic, fairy tale fog..... I think Mamma Bear's BIL described the affair as "The first 6 months it's all fairy dust and lalalala... then after that.... it's no fun, but you can't get out..."
This is one of the other things that confuses me in this MLC thing. So, they are emocionally bonded to the OW/Om but could not care less, nor are emotionally bonded to their spouse? They were not emocionally bonded to the spouse for 10, 15, 20, 30 years? Oh dear...Well if after 6 months is no fun... no one would say it. They move in with OW/OM, go on holidays, etc. And can't get out? I've read all the features here on the site. Still I always think that it is a bit of an excuse. They did nor have many problems, and it was not hard for them to leave us. How har can it be someone you are not married with if you managed to leave someone you are married with? Not that hard, I think...
I also imagine the reason so many marriages IN GENERAL don't last is the propensity to encourage people to chase "personal happiness" at any cost...
Couldn't agree more.
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As far as considering a marriage for 2 or 3 years a success, that I am not so sure about
I agree OP
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And Anne if you are telling me it is a bad bet to be married, well I think I agree with you.
But I know that I had a good marriage and wonderful children pre MLC.
And NOTHING is ever going to take that away from me.
As far as considering a marriage for 2 or 3 years a success, that I am not so sure about.
Well, OP, we don't know if the 50% that survive are happy or not happy. Some may not be happy.
Sometimes, depending on the person, I think the MLC affair my last less is there is no standing spouse. Other times I'm not so sure. Also, being no contact does not make a MLC affair last less. And a LBS doing all the mistakes that can be done does not put the spouse away. Not does the LBS do all that has to be done brings the spouse closer. My husband was around all the time during OW1, when I did all the mistakes. When she was gone we wanted to have me has his girlfirend. I do not get in his way since OW2, the affair is lasting much longer, more than twice the one with OW2 and no way he comes close to me.
So, this MLC thing is really weird! ;D
It is not a better bet to just live with someone. Maybe to be on our own... But that is sad. And I don't find people that have never married nor livedd with anyone happier than the ones who had. I had a good marriage before BD as well. Same cannot be said of the past 5 years.
I didn't say that marriages that lasted 2 or 3 years were a a success, just that some MLC affairs last long than certain marriages that did not result from an affair, including some first marriages.
Edited for quote brackets
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Really good point, OP! How did me miss the obvious, LOL!!
If he says that if you don't take him back he will have to find another woman right away because he cannot be alone, his he not emotionally blackmailing you? Sounds like he is... I suspect mine can not be alone also. Because when OW1 was goen he come knocking on the door, so to speak, asking if I did not wanted to be is girfriend. I said no.
No, in his case it's not emotional blackmail... he's simply telling the truth, and though it is absurd, it seems perfectly logical TO HIM, at this point..... like everyone feels that way! :o Ask around and you will see it is also typical in early days for the MLCer to suggest - with a straight face - that the OW move in with him and the wife "that way everyone will be happy!" :o It's possible your husband's asking if you would be his girlfriend was a version of that, or simply him turning you into OW to OW, even though she was gone....
Young childless women do sometimes want to have children! Someone should tell that to all those MLCers that change the wife for a much younger woman!
I've been saying this for YEARS!! Even if not in MLC, all older men should be warned BY OTHER MEN that trading the 40 year old in for two 20's means fun while trying to get her pregnant, hahaha!! They addressed this very well in the movie "It's Complicated".
This is one of the other things that confuses me in this MLC thing. So, they are emocionally bonded to the OW/Om but could not care less, nor are emotionally bonded to their spouse?
To quote Newman on his MLC blog.... he "did not lose his feelings for or fall out of love with his wife.... he simply DISPLACED HER". The affair partner is a MIRROR the MLCer holds up in front of themselves to PROVE there is nothing wrong with him... To HER, he is wonderful!! To HER, he can be anything he TELLS her he is, cuz she doesn't KNOW him or his history!! That's why they also abandon their friends and family... when they look at us as their mirror, they see a FAILURE, even if it's not what we think... it's how they feel about themselves.... eventually, the alienator wants more and begins pushing, pressuring and demanding... becomes CONTROLLING and SHRILL.... she was SUPPOSED to be his "soft place to land" but now, he is "stuck" to a degree because he has THROWN AWAY so much to be with her, yet she's STILL NOT HAPPY....
Maybe they leave her when she gets like that and find another one to try again.... to be wonderful again.... IDK.
My husband said yesterday that he wants to show me "Commitment like you've NEVER IMAGINED!!!" so at least he has a goal, hahaaha!
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I think moonlocks describes the A perfectly! lol
http://soulmateshmoopies.wordpress.com/2010/11/06/part-1/
The alienator has been the hardest part for me to deal with for soooo many reasons. How could h even look twice at the ugly skank? How can he possibly believe her lies and manipulations? Can't he see she has alienated him from everyone in his life that will not support the A with lies about them? How can he stand to be sooo controlled? How can he stand the drama? He should know the emotional blackmail for what it is! Arghhhhhhhh.....
In addition to all of the above posts, Helen Fishers' studies of the brain and chemistry of love hormones was enlightening for me. A 'normal' in-love R lasts 18 months to 3 years, before settling into a deeper long term love....or break-up. MLC affairs are juiced along with the addition of tons of drama. I know whenever hobag is feeling a bit insecure, out come the lies, and emotional blackmail...with loads of drama and subtle ultimatums which seem effective on my MLCer who just wants to avoid conflict and drama to maintain status quo.
Here is an informative site on the fog...fear, obligation, guilt that is used by personality disordered individuals.
http://www.outofthefog.net/index.html
My H also likes it that hobag does all the thinking and feeling for him. He does not have to wonder what he thinks or feels about anything or anyone...she tells him!
And PLEASE! do not try to figure out the odds for your M based on current affair statistics...There are not ANY that are reliable or valid. That said, most of the stats that are quoted out there boil down to a 1 to 5% chance that the A will last longer than 5 years.
And a blog on forgiveness that is helping me.
http://www.drjudithorloff.com/_blog/Dr_Judith_Orloff's_Blog/tag/relationships/
Reading and understanding will lead to forgiveness for a person who would pursue, and move in with a married man. Now, 3 years after I found out about the alienator, i do not think about her very much. When I do, there is still anger, hate, disgust, and so on, so forgiveness is a way off....but the forgiveness will happen because she is such a lost, unfortunate, disturbed skank that may never experience the joy I already feel on a daily basis. She never knew the wonderful man I knew for 25 years and probably will never meet him.
I also imagine the reason so many marriages IN GENERAL don't last is the propensity to encourage people to chase "personal happiness" at any cost...
I totally agree. (I blame Hollywood and reality TV :o) I am grateful for the opportunity my h has given me to learn that one can chase happiness forever and never find it unless they look within b/c that is where it lies...within...our beliefs, attitudes, perspectives, thoughts, etc. (it is ok to remind me I said this next time I get all sad and blue! ;D)
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Hey LGO-
The alienator has been the hardest part for me to deal with for soooo many reasons. How could h even look twice at the ugly skank? How can he possibly believe her lies and manipulations? Can't he see she has alienated him from everyone in his life that will not support the A with lies about them? How can he stand to be sooo controlled? How can he stand the drama? He should know the emotional blackmail for what it is! Arghhhhhhhh.....
Is your H's OW the same person as MY H's OW??? ugh!! I swear, they must be stamped out molds of eachother!
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LG, I’ve been spared the wanting to have OW move in with him and the Wife. I got,”I would like you to come to my birthday party. OW1 will be there but, after a few drinks everybody will be happy and I will dance with you as well”. Also got, “You can came (to a social event), she will just sit there with her girl friends, she will not intrude, you can be at easy, stay around me and talk with me as before, she will not be a problem, I promise you. “ ::)
I did went out with him a few times to social events during OW1, while I was still at the other city, but never when he was taking OW1 out. He had tried to turned me into other OW to OW before she was gone. I asked him, does he knows you want to cheat on her? He “No, she does not know. She does not need to know. I’m will not be cheating on her, it is with you, not with someone else”. They are so weird…the most absurd, unlogical things seems totally normal to them. Things that, before MLC they would frown upon and desaprove if you told them someone had done that to a spouse.
I’ve seen It’s complicated. Very funny movie. Well, I’m over forty and I still want to have children...Hope that is not a problem… ;D
No, of course there is nothing wrong with the MLCer. ::) How could that be possible? … ::) OW2 is an excellent mirror for husband. Yes, of course, she does not know him. Or me. He can tell whatever he wants. True. Husband stopped coming to out home city to visit is mother a little over a year ago. He also did not come to mum or sister’s house for Christmas. This is something he had never done before except if he was working. Is by then job used to require a 24/7, 365 days a year personnel. The employees with no children would do Christmas and NewYear’s Eve. Now, last year he was very busy, DJing at OW2 family town. Could not come and see his family. Well, if I was an MCLer I would feel a failure, a total looser, even if, like husband, I was living the high life. I think OW2 has already become too pushy. This fault divorce processes are because of her. Husband lawyer is a friend of OW2 (there was never any divorce papers or lawyer during OW1 or the few months he stayed on his own), so, a lot can be read into that. But, if she is being too pushy (and she his), why doesn’t he simply dump her? Maybe because he invested a lot of money on the two of them, they moved in together, bought the furniture for the flat, set up the perfect house and the perfect relationship. Now he has a lot to loose if he leaves her. But he has a lot to loose if he does not leave her. So, my guess is, he is gonna end up divorced, no more money for high life, no more OW2. And of, course, it was my fault. If only I was not so difficult…he could just had be happy with OW2…Because the poor man is thinking that when he will be divorced he is going to be happy and OW2 will not be pushy anymore… Of course, of course… ;D
"Commitment like you've NEVER IMAGINED!!!" Sounds like something my husband would say if he ever got to the point of wanting such thing.
To say the truth I think they should, at least for a while, to be divorced and stuck to a pushy OW/OM that will never be happy no matter what they do.
"How can he possibly believe her lies and manipulations? Can't he see she has alienated him from everyone in his life that will not support the A with lies about them? How can he stand to be sooo controlled? How can he stand the drama? He should know the emotional blackmail for what it is! Arghhhhhhhh....." LGO and synnica this could also be said of my husband. Even if OW2, just like ow1, meke sure she was very nice with husband family and everytime they meet an old friend of us. But she makes sure he stays away from our hometown. Let alone allow him to come here, or go anywhere on his own.
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While I've believed since BD that my H's in MLC, and perhaps has been for at least 3 years, I do have some "concerns" both about whether he's really an MLCer and whether/how his OW fits, or doesn't "fit," the typical MLCer "alienator" mold.
I've believed my H's an MLCer because he's exhibited many MLC behaviors (but not all.)
For example, pre, during and immediately post-BD there was monster--everything was my fault, ILYBINILWY talk, rewriting our M history, spewing, anger, extreme emotional responses and mood swings, and even the "you'll love OW, she wants to be your friend," and the classic, "if you'd let OW live with us we wouldn't have to separate." He even told me all she wanted was to "sleep at the foot of the bed"! I don't need to tell you he was serious.
But soon after he moved out to live with OW, and he and I went to very dim/sometimes dark contact, that all seemed to settle down. Within three months, as I learned to respond rather than react to what he said, he started to tell me he was sorry for the pain he was causing me and our D but still felt he was doing the right thing.
(Just last week, in fact, during what was a friendly, very nice 90 minute coffee meeting, he said, again, that he knew he had hurt me and D terribly and he was sad about that, but he couldn't feel guilty for what he'd done and that he was shocked that he didn't feel any guilt!! I don't believe he's lying, I think he's sincere. Is that sane or MLCer insane?)
During the first few months post-BD he also told me he was never coming back and that I should start to date. He only said that to me once, however. After I told him (probably a mistake but I didn't know it at the time) that I was standing (did that at about 3 months post-BD) he stopped all such talk.
We haven't had a R talk in 5 months, nor has the D word been mentioned during that time, and we've communicated, always cordially, an average of 2 - 3xs a month via email, occasional phone call, or in person.
Also, there something that seems unusual for an MLCer. Since the very beginning, H's been very generous to me. Reallly generous. We signed a settlement agreement that gave me 90% of our assets. All he wanted was our boat (so he and OW could live on it.)
He even gave me the proceeds of his military pension. That doesn't sound like the financial behavior of most of the MLCers I read about here. (He did fight me some on the ownership percentages of his company, but we're working that out amicably.)
As to the OW, I've wanted to see her as the typical MLCer's affair down OW but I don't know. Truth is, I know almost nothing about her except what H has told me and, of course, who knows what's true and what isn't.
Here are some things that fit the OW profile, and some that don't: She was married when she met my H and she knew my H was married. It was her 2nd marriage (15 years.) Her 2nd H's a successful professional, very lucrative job. Her first H was an alcoholic. That marriage ended after 10 yrs. She has two grown sons by her first H.
Six months after meeting my H, she left her H, filed for D and got her own apartment. This was in a city 300 miles from our home. My H was spending time there for his work, that's where they met and, for 2 years prior to BD, had first an EA then a PA. The PA had been going on for 18 months at the time of BD. Her D has been final for about 6 months. She's a free agent.
According to my H she's 8 years younger than he. I've seen photos of her and that looks about right. She's attractive, not a raving beauty but about the same as me on a scale of 1 - 10. But a woman who looks less like me would be hard to find. (I'm a big, tall blonde, big eyes, big nose(!) She's short, dark hair, "bird like" facial features as my D, who's met her a couple of times, says.)
Here's one of her most un-OW behaviors: She's supporting my H. My H doesn't have a salary right now. I actually loaned him money for him to live on this year as he's starting a business (he's done this before and been quite successful) but has no income yet. She's getting a generous alimony and that's what they're living on. (He's using my $ to run his business.) Oh, and she bought a boat that's they paid in the 6 figures for, with her cash. The boat my H took from our marriage wasn't big enough for them to live aboard, H's says, and now H has it up for sale.
She does have, according to my H, a debilitating neurological condition that makes it impossible for her to work. When my H was first telling me about her he seemed very "drawn" to her health problems and to taking care of her. (I know, I know the MLCer KISA complex.)
So, while I do see traits in her story that sound like the typical OW (the physical issue,) there are also traits that aren't (she's supporting him.)
And my H is charging full speed ahead with their life together. They've been living at my H's sister's very rural waterfront home's pier (90 miles from me) and now they're moving their boat to a major waterfront city, just 40 miles from me, to a fancy marina with a health club, restaurants, shopping, nightlife, pool, all the goodies. Plus the whole city at their feet. This is something my H always dreamed of doing. Well, I guess his dream is coming true.
So. . .I don't know. Is he an MLCer or just a WAS? (I'm surprised I'm asking that question this far into it but I'm beginning to have my doubts.) Is she the classic MLCer OW, or a regular, standard-issue affair partner? Has my H found his soul mate? I'm really beginning to wonder!
Thanks for letting me write this out.
TMHP
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Trusting....I can say that your sitch almost fits my H, its pretty close...alot of the same behaviours..
as for OW...same, but she doesnt support him...HE supports Her, but when she did get her income tax money
she spent pretty much all of it on him and their new life...
SO...really I think to ease your worry.....sounds like MLC to me and just another OW...looking for something...I dont know.
I do know that my nephew went through something like this a few years ago...he is young..mid 30's now
but his OW, paid for everything...she had a really good job...but I think that made her feel powerful over my Nephew.
so it can go both ways....maybe your H's OW has some sort of "power" that way by being financially secure..hmm
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While I've believed since BD that my H's in MLC, and perhaps has been for at least 3 years, I do have some "concerns" both about whether he's really an MLCer and whether/how his OW fits, or doesn't "fit," the typical MLCer "alienator" mold.
Mine H's OW does not fit the mold either. They are the same age, she is not better looking or unattractive. She was married twice, first husband was alcoholic and abusive (so she told H) and second one died 8 months prior to her contacting H. She says he was a total pothead and smoked pot in the basement for most years of their marriage. She has children from both marriages. She owns the house they live together in, with her two sons ages 19 and 21 as well has her D24 and her granddaughter 2.
My H still deposits his paycheck into our account, and I haven't seen monster or much of H since April of this year. No R talks have gone on since then either. He can't tell me he doesn't love me. And when we are together for D16 events, he is kind to me like any other parent there would be to me. I too wonder if the last 20 years were a lie and he really didn't love me and he has found his "soulmate". Though, he called me his soulmate all those years, was he faking it?
So I guess we both have non-traditional OW's.
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I wonder what the "common" age difference is from our MLCers...my H is 43 the OW just turned 38
hmmm, she isnt ALL that fugly...but she does look 10 years older then she is...lol
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I wonder what the "common" age difference is from our MLCers...my H is 43 the OW just turned 38
hmmm, she isnt ALL that fugly...but she does look 10 years older then she is...lol
My H's OW is the same age, 48, but my daughter says she looks like she is 60. She does look much older than her age, not quite 60 though, maybe about 5 years older than her actual age.
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Its got to be one of the myths about MLC...ya know..guy goes out and gets a 20 year old a sports car....
I havent really noticed alot of age gaps here between the MLCer and OP.....Goes to show, it is really a bandaide
and nothing to do with how "pretty" or "young" even.
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Trusting and Stander.... BOTH of your MLCers are MLCers.... yours is not the only OW to pay all expenses.... many OW are not younger women... mine happens to be 22 years younger than me... OUCH!! Now, my husband is a red blooded All American Male, but it wouldn't surprise me if he NEVER looks at a young woman again after he gets out of this mess...
EVerything you've described, I've heard on this forum multiple times.... they definitely fit the MLC description, and OW definitely fits OW description.... so don't worry!! you're in the right place, LOL!!
Don't believe it when your MLCer tells you OW was married to an abusive husband... it's all B.S. They sometimes claim to have cancer that is miraculously cured.... all sorts of things. Doesn't sound very attractive, does it? But it is DRAMA, and MLCers are SUCKERS and they are naive and downright STUPID... so listening to OW go on and on about her high blood pressure and 48 hour labor and birth of the bay that died FASCINATES THEM!! It is so "special"...
To quote someone's husband here.... "I know she's a ow, but she NEEDS my help!" :o :o :o if I have the time, I'll bump up that thread "Crazy things my MLCer has said".... Really, Trusting??? Your husband told you it was ok to attend a party with him and OW and she would sit in the corner quietly? And you're not sure this is MLC or WAS? I'm pretty sure, it's MLC!!
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Thanks for the reassurance Syn, Stander & LG. It's good to hear your validations.
Insecurity and fear are a big part of all this for me, obviously. I'm hoping as time goes on and I learn more, and experience more, of my H's sitch, I'll become more confident of what's going on. But I know I have a long way to go before that happens.
Time is my friend, I know.
TMHP
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Yip, sure all sound like MLCers to me too. ???
LGO - thanks for sharing all of that information
My H and I are both 48, and I've been told on numerous occasions that I look much younger than my years. (Now before you start getting pictures in your heads of mutton dressed as lamb, that's not it at all ;D It's more my nature, and genetics)
The OW has just turned 40 and looks WAY older than I do. She looks way older than any of my friends who are around my age too. I didn't think about this until the third person commented to me, what's with her wrinkly skin?
What is that saying? Something like - God gifted you the face you were born with, and you get the face that you deserve after 40.
Must be karma at work maybe???
LBS's are a special breed - I'm sure we're all aging gracefully :)
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Firstly I dont think that divorce statistics can be applied to MLC and how long the relationship with the OP will last. This is not a comparison that can be clearly made.
The characteristics of a MLC are fairly clear and follow a script we see described many times on this forum.
Normally I believe someone in MLC either meets another person in MLC OR meets a Narcissitic character who sees their weekness and wants to control or 'save' them. The alienator can indeed be after finance and seek to control for this purpose. The MLC may see the OP as a person who needs to be 'saved' by them. They form a symbiotic relationship and they feel wonderful and have no guilt (in early stages). They don't see the hurt they give to their spouse and children. They explain it away as it is too hard to face.
This does not last forever however, but it does last through the stages of MLC. BUT eventually one of the two people will start to see that this situation is not sustainable. They see the damage and they should then be past the half way stage.
A Narcissist becoming more comfortable in the relationship will then become more controlling and exploit the weak one more, not 'saving' at all.
In RCR's article on Alienators she clearly explains this and says that the Alienator will strangle the love out of the relationship. Particularly if your spouse was in a long term marriage before this happened, they (the MLC) can then start to make a comparison between what they had and what they now have. However this can take some time, maybe a few years, because they can maintain the play acting and symbiosis for a long time (if they don't live together). The closer they are may shorten the time? Also they will work together and everyone else becomes the enemy, until the enemy becomes from within their relationship.
The problem then becomes when the MLC starts with liminality and starts to see the damage caused to friends and family. They could quite believe that as the LBS may not be receptive to reconcilliation, that they are stuck and cannot repair the enormous damage and become very unhappy. They may feel completely lost and in despair.
Maybe at this point the alienator cannot fix or 'save' the MLC any more and they become the enemy?
But the LBS should not be too receptive immediately to reconcilliation or we head for a sorry future of being dominated by bad behaviour from the MLC. If we consider reconcilliation then rules have to be firmly applied. But a closed door may be accepted by the MLC and they may not ask again. They will be very vulnerable at this time if they can summon the courage.
In reality reconcilliation WILL be difficult for the couple , but repairing damage may not be so difficult if the LBS has been calm and followed advice on this forum. Remember an LBS is often much stronger than an MLC if they are standing.
The worst thing through all this is to confront the alienator, this gives them power and creates the atmosphere of LBS being the enemy and enhances their symbiosis.
The best way for a LBS to deal with an alienator is to recognise that they are a symptom only and not the illness. Ignore them completely, this takes away their power and we LBS must accept that this illness needs to have the temperature taken out of it by reducing the heat.
This is why we have to somehow get our composure, retain our sanity and think carefully so we don't react in anger to things that happen and things that are said. We LBS head for self improvement for ourselves and to prepare for our next stage with or without.
There are no statistics for MLC, they follow various scripts but dont follow a fixed route down this tunnel.
This is only what I have read and learnt over the past two years of what seems to be at least 4 years of my wife's MLC and the alienator is still there, but my wife now sees the damage. Now the fun begins.
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But the LBS should not be too receptive immediately to reconcilliation or we head for a sorry future of being dominated by bad behaviour from the MLC.
I don't really agree with this.... when the affair is over, they are still in MLC, so you may still see some behaviors you don't like, but if you're lucky, they fall into depression and withdrawal... after that it is processing, but during these phases they will slip back sometime to moments of monster as they proceed through to the end... it's not an indication of how they will treat you in life.... they're just not there to their new personality yet! They are being reborn...
Once the new personality emerges, there is room for remorse..... a remorseful MLCer will treat you with respect... don't worry about it. They may test you, but it's not permanent. Don't worry....
Also, a reminder... if the statistics for reconciliation after MLC and the MLC affair are 1 in say....100, well... what if you are the 1?
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LG "If you're lucky they fall into depression and withdrawal"
What great lives we have!!!! This is how I feel. If we're lucky....LOL
Freddygone I love what you said. It is how I feel. Also agree with LG. We are a special breed we LBS We really are. I love US!!!! :)
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Hi Guys,
I am feeling my way......Still in the middle of all this and the alienator is still there. So I am guessing on the last part.
Something may be changing and I am not sure what is coming next...but the past has not been good so I am anticipating more not good.
If you know how this story ends I would love to know. Will I be the 1 ?
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Hi FG,
I take comfort from your post and thank you for it... however, I do not think I will be the lucky "1" :-\ My H who always was stubborn and found "saying sorry" for anything almost impossible, will almost definitely think what he has done to me and his S is so far gone that he can never come back, despite wanting to..... that would be like admitting he was wrong in the first place...
Who knows, only God.....I know I won't be in the same house or same town by the time he exits from wherever he is....and probably we won't be "married" either... maybe, just maybe I'll become the girl he fell in love with in 1979 ???
Love and hugs
Foxy xxxx
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Foxy, I have to say in the 35 years I have known my wife, it is only in the last year that I ever heard the word 'sorry'.
I too have this same concern that even if they know they screwed up, they would not put effort into any form of correction. Unless they were really at rock bottom and suffering, desperate.
I am a long way from home as I could not remain in that poison atmosphere with the alienator pulling strings. I would seriously have died.
Saturday, I drive from Switzerland back to UK to face a Financial hearing on 29th Sept.
My wife would never have done this. We always trusted each other.
Now I have given full disclosure, she has been demanding money all along, saying she had nothing. I have brought all acounts to secure levels and maintain my two daughters in Edinburgh so I look after 4 homes.
Now it seems she has 23,000 (pounds) is shares. Whoopee, where did that come from.
I feel the 29th will be interesting. This alienator has a lot to answer for.
Maybe things will become clear.
But yes, I think sometimes distance is a very good thing. For our sanity.
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From RCR's article Stories and Human Behavior
If you are the typical LBS, after a while you believe your marriage will not survive, often because your MLCer is just one of those stubborn ones who once he makes a decision, he won't change it. Really? Like your MLCer isn't now changing his decision to be married to you? MLC is a journey of self-discovery and change. The person who comes through the MLC tunnel may be vastly different than the person who entered the tunnel and different than the possibly multiple personalities in the tunnel. How your MLCer is now is not indicative of who he might become.
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Well then I'm a typical LBS because I can't see us making it through this...come to think about it, I have typical friends too because they don't think we will make it either :-\. Maybe I should strive to be "different".
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I guess in a technical sense, we didn't make it as the divorce was final about 6 months after bomb drop. However as the two year mark approaches, she continues to be a Boomerang as a contact type and is very classic in her MLC behavior, both before the divorce and since the divorce. With that said....I do not recommend divorce....it's just that my MLCer did everything from start to finish.
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LG,
I read your post and wonder where the 1 in 100 stat comes from. Geez, I hope that the odds of him returning to our m much better than this. My h keeps referring to d happen in 1 in 2 marriages.
Well, I look at our long standing m and if he can make progress through this "tunnel" maybe h can see the damage he has done to our m, the children and in his own life.
He still can't see anything. Has mentioned that he is happy despite not seeing his children. Yes, I am sure his life is much "simpler". Just work and OW. Sigh.
Really, how can he be "happy"?
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Not to get off subject, but I am still very uncertain about my H being in MLC, or is he just a WAS. The thing that perplexes me the most is that my H has yet to admit that he is involved emotionally and physicaly with OW. Even though all the evidence is there. This is in sharp contrast to the H's that are discussed on the forum who have admitted to the A and have even discussed OW or said things about her to the LBS. His excuse for the "friendship" as he calls it is that she has issues and he is helping her out. (meanwhile his family and kids are falling apart).
I really would like to get some insight on this. What makes some deny, deny, deny, while others admit and are open about OW?
Is this refeltive of the type of affair, the ow's personality or H's ability to be a pathalogical liar(lol). Does this give any insight to the dynamics of H relationship with OW.
The fact is, although he denies the relationship he has done things and made decisions that clearly show that they are involved. Like getting an apartment right next door to OW. Not sure if that's his way of showing me w/out having to say it.
He has never asked for a divorce and if I bring up divorce he gets angry and defensive. He said to me a couple months ago: I dont want a divorce and if you think I will ever agree to a divorce you have it all wrong. He confuses me! He's practically living with OW and we rarely speak but he doesnt want a divorce?? I just dont get it.
He has some symptoms of MLC but on the other hand his constant lying about his R with OW really makes me wonder.
If it is MLC, do the ones that deny take longer to come through the tunnel? theres just not much said about H's who keep denying the OW R. It's been 14 months since BD. By now I would think that he should at least be honest about OW.
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Standing, that is not a stat... it was a QUESTION.... "what IF it is one marriage out of a hundred, for whatever reason that makes it through this process, then what if YOU and your husband are the ONE?" It's a question RCR asks in her standing articles...
Surviving, I don't understand how you can think your husband's behaviors fall into a "normal" category.... just read what you wrote! Read the articles here, number one. Don't compare your situation with those that are WAAAAAAY further along.... things change A LOT!
Though my husband no longer lies about where he's going on the weekends (because he ran out of excuses a few weeks ago when he claimed he had to go to Toronto on business on FIRDAY.... it was an elaborate lie that was even too ridiculous for him to convince himself of!) he DENIES that OW is his girlfriend.... :o :o I ask him if he thinks SHE thinks he's her boyfriend and he says "probably"... :o :o he is unwilling to break up with her and experience the withdrawal and depression that will come with it... OW is an emotional blackmailer and that keeps clinging boomerangs, like mine, hooked for a long time after they don't want to be there...
The denial is because they do NOT WANT TO BE DOING WHAT THEY ARE DOING in their hearts... the don't want it to be true... it is a fantasy...they do NOT want it to be true, so they lie to themselves and everyone else. Your husband tells you he doesn't want a divorce because he sees this as a TEMPORARY situation.... he is confused in his head and doesn't know what is going on with him... he has all sorts of compulsions that confuse him... so in HIS mind, he knows he wants to be with you in the future... You may have a clinging boomerang, or just a boomerang.... read RCR's latest blog articles and you'll see some of the hallmarks of a clinger... probably too soon for you to tell.
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it was a VERY long time before my h would admit the A. Even after he moved in with her! Even longer b4 he would talk about it at all.
The lies support the justification/deniial/compartmentalisation in his head. he confuses you b/c he is confused. lies and denial prevail through out replay.
Try to drop any expectations you may about time, time in tunnel with BD, any expectations at all! There are rough timelines written somewhere, but mine has not followed them at all.
Also drop D talk. If he wants one, he will get one.
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Hi surviving my h didn’t admit o/w even when i threw him out he still denied it he left for 6 wks and was living with her....he came back and 10 tens day later my D18 at the time now 20 saw his phone with her name flash up.....so she read the message and told me 2 days later...........the poor girl was tormented by what she saw but didn’t want to break my heart..........she said when saw she dad and how he was with me...it tore her apart she said mum i only told you cos dad wouldn’t.......apparently she told him she the text......saying why have you left me you know we love each and d6 was getting used to you she even let you put her to bed :o :o :o :o :o :o :o...........that is how fecked up these o/w are my h could have been child molester but she allowed him to put her d to bed after such a short time together..........a few months later i a read text when he started seeing her again.......saying but you said you was goner be D's daddy well you better tell her you’ve left us cos im not.........i was fuming she enabled my h to destroy his kids life and yet wanted him to have compassion for a child that didn’t belong to him........as you see all this is emotional blackmail laid on an already confused and guilty man........they know how to do it think these o/w must have a script too........Don’t believe anything your h says.................maybe hes waiting the 2 yrs for a divorce that way he can D with break down in marriage ......maybe he doesn’t want a D but feels you may D him for adultery if you find about o/w..........only your h knows why hes doing this ....................its sad to say but as OP says believe nothing of what they say and only half of what you seexxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
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Thanks lg, lgo and wgh,
It's not taht Im trying to determine movement through the tunnel as much as I wonder if it's really MLC. It's the denying of the OW R that really confuses me. Even though BD was 14 months ago he has been involved with OW for over 2 years now. I just think by now it's time to stop the lies.
Thanks for sheding some light on this for me. As LG says, his behavior is certainly not "normal", though I dont know what normal is when your H leaves you for another woman... :-\
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LG, phew. Thank G. I am feeling much better now.
Any how, my h is paying for health insurance and sending $ and never used the d word so I believe he, we and the children are in a holding pattern.
I picture h waiting on the tarmac for the pilot (God) to talk to h (improved and through the tunnel), ready to take off down the runway and coming back to w, marriage and family. Hopefully, there is plenty of fuel still in the 767's tank. Only ONE airplane ticket is needed.
Standing, I believe it is mlc and not WAS since my h would never leave his children.
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My husban's OW1 was 30 he was 36, OW2 is 36 he is 41. Nor OW1 neither OW2 are prettier than I am.
Firstly I dont think that divorce statistics can be applied to MLC and how long the relationship with the OP will last. This is not a comparison that can be clearly made.
The characteristics of a MLC are fairly clear and follow a script we see described many times on this forum.
I think you may be right, Freddy.
Normally I believe someone in MLC either meets another person in MLC OR meets a Narcissitic character who sees their weekness and wants to control or 'save' them. The alienator can indeed be after finance and seek to control for this purpose. The MLC may see the OP as a person who needs to be 'saved' by them. They form a symbiotic relationship and they feel wonderful and have no guilt (in early stages). They don't see the hurt they give to their spouse and children. They explain it away as it is too hard to face.
This does not last forever however, but it does last through the stages of MLC. BUT eventually one of the two people will start to see that this situation is not sustainable. They see the damage and they should then be past the half way stage.
A Narcissist becoming more comfortable in the relationship will then become more controlling and exploit the weak one more, not 'saving' at all.
Yep, even if my husband is a vanisher I’m starting to see sighs that OW2 is calling the shots. And it all pretty much about her.
However this can take some time, maybe a few years, because they can maintain the play acting and symbiosis for a long time (if they don't live together). The closer they are may shorten the time?
I don’t know if the closer they are can shorten the time. OW1 lasted less than the time husband has been living with OW2.
Also they will work together and everyone else becomes the enemy, until the enemy becomes from within their relationship.
I was thing about this today. So far, husband and OW2 have been working against me and everything that is so “terrible” from his past, but a time will come when they will become each other enemy. I, on the other hand, will not be an enemy of husband or OW2.
The problem then becomes when the MLC starts with liminality and starts to see the damage caused to friends and family. They could quite believe that as the LBS may not be receptive to reconcilliation, that they are stuck and cannot repair the enormous damage and become very unhappy. They may feel completely lost and in despair.
They are already very unhappy and in despair. They will get more unhappy, lost and in despair.
Maybe at this point the alienator cannot fix or 'save' the MLC any more and they become the enemy?
Here I think that the alienator can not save or fix the MLCer but the MCLer can become attached to the alienator because of being afraid of the LBS reaction or because the LBS has moved on. MLCer will feel lost and may prefer to stay in a pushy controlling relashionship with the alienator than on his/her own.
But the LBS should not be too receptive immediately to reconcilliation or we head for a sorry future of being dominated by bad behaviour from the MLC. If we consider reconcilliation then rules have to be firmly applied. But a closed door may be accepted by the MLC and they may not ask again.
Agree, rules and boudaries have to the firmly applied.
They will be very vulnerable at this time if they can summon the courage.
In reality reconcilliation WILL be difficult for the couple , but repairing damage may not be so difficult if the LBS has been calm and followed advice on this forum. Remember an LBS is often much stronger than an MLC if they are standing.
Again, agree, the LBS, is standing (in whatever that means to the LBS) is much stronger than the MLCer. However I think repairing the damage will still be very difficult.
The worst thing through all this is to confront the alienator, this gives them power and creates the atmosphere of LBS being the enemy and enhances their symbiosis.
The best way for a LBS to deal with an alienator is to recognise that they are a symptom only and not the illness. Ignore them completely, this takes away their power and we LBS must accept that this illness needs to have the temperature taken out of it by reducing the heat.
Yes, never, never confront the alienator. Let him, her, alone. It will only gives them power. And, if like me, the alienator comes in the middle of the faul divorce your spouse is having against you, let your lawyer deal with the alienator in the court. Don’t engage with the alienator.
This is why we have to somehow get our composure, retain our sanity and think carefully so we don't react in anger to things that happen and things that are said. We LBS head for self improvement for ourselves and to prepare for our next stage with or without.
Exactly. We are preparing for the next stage, with or without the spouse. That is a very important, and hard, thing for us to learn but we must do it.
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Thank You AnneJ,
I was beginning to wonder if I had it right.
This has been a struggle for me to understand as it is clear the alienator in my case is a very clever ruthless man out to destroy and gain all he can, whilst pretending he is 'saving' my wife.
While I struggle to regain financial stability after a year with no work, my wife has been demanding more and more money and brings court cases because she says she has no money which I now have to answer.
She says she needs 5000 per month, Oh and a replacement car.
Now when it comes to Financial statements being submitted it seems there is a share account accumulated of almost 25000 pounds whilst I have no savings and am supporting my family home, wife and two daughters in separate apartments at University.
She (or he) is demanding the family home be sold (which is in Trust to my daughters) and ongoing maintenance.
They are clearly in cloud cuckoo land as my contract ends at the end of the year. I have no incentive to work once my daughter finishes at UNI.
Clearly this is not the action of my wife, dealing in shares is not anything she would know how to do, or what to do. This is deceit and comes from the alienator. He leads her into untruth and unscrupulous strategy.
So I think I need to allow the lawyer to deal with the alienator and expose his tactics. For me to do it would be counter productive.
I have not brought these legal cases or raised divorce proceedings but I must defend each. It is like fencing.
But through this we feel we are being attacked and doubt our sanity. This is not my wife doing these things, but she is being directed whilst she is weak. He has made her break communications with me because we were getting on so well.
She is simply a puppet.
Now I despair because I have successfully restored the financial stability since no work in 2009 yet my wife still spending. (Seven holidays since January 2010.
This year has been hard but I think finally we have no overdraft or debts. I have 4 months remaining to retain something for next year when again I may have no work.
A Narcissistic alienator is very cunning and charming, but most people see through them quite quickly. But in most cases I believe they are quite successful in acquiring assets from others, then finding an excuse to dump the person they have saved.
They possess no empathy towards the LBS or children of the marriage and are often themselves victims of past abuse.
They are and can be dangerous people and I think you can only use the law to stop them.
They will cling and dominate and will be hard for a week MLC to get away from.
There are articles about Narcissistic alienators which I spent a long time reading and like MLC they follow the same but different characteristics. In the articles they refer to the MLC as being the host to the alienator as the behaviour is seen as parasitic.
I guess I was very unlucky that my MLC wife met this one.
Also his partner at the time (together for 17 years) was also very unfortunate (or fortunate) and was discarded so easily. I hope her health improves now she is away from him.
He will do it again and dump my wife if things are not going to his plan. We will see.
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Hi FG,
My H's OW is very clever and manipulative too....they all are, as so many people wiser than I have said, who goes out with either a married man or woman anyway???? I'm not sure if my H's OW is a Narcisst or not, all I know is she has been clever and cunning and I refuse to contact her in any way that would only empower her....You need to protect yourself financially as I intend to do.... in the Uk, unfortunately that will mean Divorce...but I have to protect myself from not just H but OW too.
Stay strong - lots of love to you]
Foxy xx
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Hi Foxberry and others,
yes we all seem to see these very charming and clever Narcissists and others only seem to see them as charming and clever.
There is also a significant connection with Stockholm Syndrome which affects the MLC.
But to illustrate there are a series of 4 short (10 minute) videos on Youtube by Melody Chase from Canada which explain all the characteristics of Narcissism and our experiences.
I had a little input (as AW), but you will see if you watch them.
Regarding Financial control, in UK I managed to acheive this with the help of my solicitor and it can be done without going as far as Divorce. There is Maintenance Pending Suit before a Divorce whilst separated. This is one of the cases I am involved with next week.
Here is the link to the first Video.
http://counsellorinabox.com/blog/?p=181
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You’re welcome, Freddy.
Yes, you had it right. But I was wondering if I was the only one with a spouse that keeps bringing absurd court cases upon me. Now I know I’m not.
No way I’m near to financial stability. Husband is aware my job is gone for awile, that I have health issues that do not allow for a regular job, but, its been 5 years and I have not seen a penny from him.
His reasons for court cases are that he had to left because of me, that I have never helped him, that I spent too much, and do on. Also, that we was the only one that earned money during our marriage. Not true. I’ve worked hard on the projects with both created and have had several jobs. Plus, even if I have never done a thing, he had married me, accept the situation and, therefore, he can not have that for a reason to divorce.
Of course he does not says the court that there was OW1, that he left (before BD), stopped contributing with money, took all the money from our bank accounts, manage to put and end to our joint projects and so on.
Now, at least I'm certain it is OW2 who is behind the crazy court cases. He never filled for divorce during OW1. She was the typo of other person that fears the spouse and would never wanted to see herself into such a messy thing as a court case. OW2, on the other hand, is the sort that wants to be me, have my live and would very much enjoy if I notice her existence. Given that my husband had is first fault divorce closed for lack of proofs of his claims (the are none), he come up with a second one. Where we live you can only file for fault divorce on the county you live. So, we opened the case with an address from another county. My lawyer pointed out he does not live in such county. His lawyer contestation said “it is the address of Mr Jones current companion”.
Thing his, Mr Jones current companion in reality lives with Mr Jones in the couty he lives in, has all her legal addresses in the same county (even street and flat) that Mr Jones. The other address is from some property she owns. Thing number two, Mr Jones is married, a current companion means adultery and valid reason for a fault divorce from Mr Jones spouse. Now, Mr Jones spouse does not even need, if she wants, to try to prove that Mr Jones is living with someone. He already said it in a court legal document.
And no, this not like murder, that are no mitigating circustances and no deal. How out of one mind does a person who is taking the wife to court because she was a bad wife, needs to be to say that he is using an address that belong to current companion? Totally out of their minds?
Of course I know that it is just OW2 showing me she exists and trying to make go mad. And, perhaps, even contact her. Or star phoning husband (he is a vanisher) and asking him what is that stuff about current companion. So such luck , my lawyer will deal with the two of them according to the law.
Also, my husband’s lawyer is a friend of other woman. My husband knows nothing about law, I was always the one that took care of the legal matters, he is still very angry with himself (of course he thinks he is angry at me), and quite vulnerable. A very easy prey to a charming “oh, my darling, you need to get rid of that terrible wife of yours” OW. And OW2 is even more charming than OW1. She has charmed husband’s relatives, some of mine and his mutual friends, and all his and hers new friends.
She, of course, just like your wife OM, is trying to destroy and gain all she can, while pretending to save and care very much for him and all those that are close to him. Except his wife, of course!
I have to disagree, Freddy, months remaining to retain something for next year when again I may have no work, a narcissistic alienator manages to diciave almost anyone. At least OW2 has managed that. Maybe when she will get what she wants (but to that he will need to be divorced and keep all our assets for himself, something that I find hard to happen, even because it is illegal) she will dump him. For the time being she’s living the high life, gained access to a semi-famous (in our country) cultural and artistic circle, and has copy cat me in many things.
Have no idea how her past was, if there was abuse of not. I’m not interested in found out.
But you are right, they can be dangerous. I’ve realised that. OW2 is dangerous. OW1 was innocuous, juts the type who wants to offer some solace to an unhappy married man.
Any tips to deal with a husband in MLC with a narcissistic other woman that is helping him taking me to court, while being adorable to everyone?
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Regarding Financial control, in UK I managed to acheive this with the help of my solicitor and it can be done without going as far as Divorce. There is Maintenance Pending Suit before a Divorce whilst separated. This is one of the cases I am involved with next week.
We have this in my country as well. I have a court case for it. Husband is contesting, so, it drags.
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great thread. i think hubby and ow are narcist. is that possible. i know hubby is her hero and she is his damsel. just when you think nothing else can be chucked at me as a lbs, they think of something. but i dont show them they are getting to me at all. my only worry is when i have to face ow. im sure i will feature in her game plan one day lol. whats the best way any of you have handled this. in my dreams i would beat the skank lol. but in reality ive got 4 kids to behave in front of. im determined to keep my dignity and self respect. just think meeting ow is going to be a test of my patience and mouth quiet :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X
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FreddyG, thanks for the link.
Scary stuff though ??? I can see how my H has been putty in the OW's hands now
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Nesquick2, Personally, I plan on avoiding IT at all cost.......Staying Far Away from Skankie germs and aura of sleezy- ness. I think it will be best to stay above the fray like the Queen of England. Ewwwwwwwwww :P :P I can't mingle with the likes of an OW :o :o :o :o
I'll run if I see her. :)
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mama bear. you are sooooooooooooooooo funny. i know one day she will turn up to pick the kids up. i just know it. seriously. hubby has already bought ow kids with him. luckily i was going dim at the time so did not see them. even though all the kids are innocent in this mlc. im thinking i will just have to smile sweetly at her in front of kids and put her down when no ones looking lol. maybe im having a midlife crisis lol :-X
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I saw my partner with his "soulmate" last Sunday for the very first time last Sunday. After all I have read, how far I thought I had come, I crashed and burned, my first comment to him was leave me alone you disgust me!
Guess I won't be graduating from here with honors. I am not sure there really is advice that will get you through that moment with dignity and grace. There is advice of course, but at that moment, my crushed heart took over and I lashed out from pain. I know, not my best move.
When I calmed down what I read on here did kick in as I was looking at this stranger before me and I was able to speak in a calm tone, just was honest and said that of course this was hard for me.
He remained calm himself, probably from guilt somewhere in him.
Though the ow, om is not supposed to matter, at that moment they mattered a lot. Why, after all I have read here. Beacause it is still hard for me to accept what he feels isn't real. It sure looks and feels real to me.
Back to baby steps for me I guess.
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Brokenhearted,
You responded/reacted like most or all of us would. I haven't had to see my H with his OW. I cannot imagine how hard that must be and how much it would hurt.
It is difficult to believe that this isn't "true love" as they appear to be so happy. (It's the Covert Depression and the mask that they wear).
Infidelity is one of the most painful parts of MLC. It is difficult NOT to take it personally.
I guess we all need to understand....It isn't about HER and it isn't about US....it's about how the MLCer feels about himself....and he is merely using OW to make himself feel better. (OW is probably using the MLCer, as well, but that is besides the point).
Don't be so hard on yourself. It hurt you. You said how you felt. It's okay. It really is.
And don't worry about graduating from here - "with honors." (I loved that line, by the way). All we are all doing is trying to get through this, the best we can.
Remember...OW is just a band-aid. Nothing more. The MLCer is incapable of having a relationship with anyone.......
Hugs,
L
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brokenhearted, i agree with limitless. we are tested soooo much. hang in there hunny. we are all together on this forum. i hope i behave if i meet ow, i really do. but my inner self tells me thats when i will break and i sooooo dont want too. i think of the word PATIENCE and not playing into ow control. i so cant do that. i will picture my fab four kids in my mind and heart if i ever do meet her. she wont be getting a cuppa at my house i can tell you lol.
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Thank God I haven't had to face my H with the OW yet either. I pray that day will never come but, I suspect it will, sadly. My D is planning on getting married in two years and I'm thinking about the wedding and OW being there. . .
I have seen photos of H with OW on FB. Devastated me, I mean devastated.
And, I'm sorry, but MLCers DO occasionally marry the OW. It does happen! And it's not all that astoundingly rare from what I've seen on this board and others. So I get somewhat frustrated with the mantra that the OW is "nothing," "just a band-aid," "not to be considered." Ah, some MLCers marry their OW. Look around!
TMHP
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I believe some DO marry their OW's...but that doesnt mean it would last any longer then if they hadnt...
I feel that if I had left my H and filed for D at BD.....he would have married OW as soon as it was final, regardless
of how he felt.....6 months ago...he was still very much deep in the fog...He would have done it.....I know it!'
but...I also believe it wouldnt have lasted very long at all...
8)
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TMH,
I'm so sorry you had to see those pics on facebook and for everyone else, sorry you had to be confronted with the OW. I have yet to experience that.
Although, one time I collected the kids from H's after a BBQ there, I was about to leave and we were all in the car, when OW is standing at her car ready to leave. It was dark and she was behind us but the kids pointed her out. I just saw a silouette of her and H. Thank goodness he didn't kiss her then. Why he had to get her to leave at almost the same time as me I don't know. Probably trying to taunt like a teenager. See, I have a girlfriend, na na na na na. :P
I am also questioning the 'one size fits all' description of the OW / OM and the R with our MLC'ers. How can we be so sure that is what is going on with ALL of them?
My neighbour's H left her and has been married to OW for 5 years.
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Stillpraying, Well.. Well.. Well back to the age old question of 'How can I focus on me?' Whenever I see anything remotely involving a romantic scene on TV or in real life I cringe. :'(
Luckily I have a Clingy Boomerang MLCer. I can SEE that he is incapable of having a normal conversation with ANYONE!! :o :o
He talks jibberish and unicorns. :o :o :o
His texts are like Howard Stern fart jokes. Since my sister whose h came back after 2 years told me she's a' dumbsell in distress'. Right out of the gate she called everything about Bowser OW Perfectly.
No car, No TV,No AC, No 7 year old (he lives with his Dad), No good job, No pretty face, No boyfriend except my H. Now I find out she chain smokes and doesn't empty the ashtrays. The Ds said she's quiet and laughs TeeHee at everything H says.
There is no way on God's green earth that my handsome intelligent kind loving H is going to stay stuck in this s**thole longer than it takes for total rock bottom and awakening ETC...months years who knows he's broken and I can't find the warranty. :o :o :o
Even if he doesn't come back to me (and I know he will) He will come out different and this Trailer Park Drama Queen is NOT his cup of tea! This much I KNOW :) Trust the MLC Process!!! Infidelity destroys itself. :) Without our help!!!! That's the best part.
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MB. Your Howard Stern comment made me laugh, even though I've never heard him.
The kids were joking around how they are trying to upset OW. They first said they touch her stuff. I told them that's disrespectful etc and they got the gist.
However, then they said that S5 (a shy boy!!) goes to the loo and then makes fart noises with his mouth. :o :o Really loud and long. The boys, say dad goes red with emabarrassment. :-[ While we are all (including D2) laughing our heads off just visualising them at OW's doing this, 8)S5 promptly got up and went to demonstrate to me.
I also just remembered S9 said dad told him it's OK if he doesn't like OW. Hardly something you'd say to your child if you want a relationship to go the distance ::)
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Reading MamaBear's posting makes me ask a significant question here.
The partners that our other half are with......Do any of them fit to type that our MLC would normally choose?
I don't mean for a quicky or a holiday, I mean as a stable, comfortable relationship?
Aren't most (I almost said all) going to crash and burn?
Like a satellite re-entry (topical) ;), they will burn up and we have a small chance of being hit by a fragment, but I think most of the damage will be to them.
If you and your partner have been in a long term marriage which has been good (I did not say perfect) then you have been doing something right and a Narcissist has wished to steal your partner. They (the Narcissist) will try to blend with the character, blackmail and control, to replace you or excite your spouse. But in relative terms the chances of a sustained, reliable, calm and stable long term relationship is slim. The MLC will see this change as refreshing...initially.
There will always be comparison in your MLC's head, at some point. Maybe it will be too late when that realisation comes. But it will come.
But MLC is about chaos, unreliability, excitement and instability.
It is an adrenalin rush that they have, but can't live with long term.
The Narcissist is exploiting the chaos and instability simply to gain power. They will argue and fight, break up and get back together as this is the way of controlling.
But I also find my daughters ridicule this OM, and he does not know how to respond. They have him pegged.
We are all nuts to some degree is my conclusion.
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"And, I'm sorry, but MLCers DO occasionally marry the OW. It does happen! And it's not all that astoundingly rare from what I've seen on this board and others. So I get somewhat frustrated with the mantra that the OW is "nothing," "just a band-aid," "not to be considered." Ah, some MLCers marry their OW. Look around!"
Yes, it does happen. Occasionally. RCR's blog on marrying the alienator shows that it can and does happen. Nothing on this website says it never happens. Never means zero.
And, let's also not forget that even when the MLCer does marry the OW/OM, a high percentage of those end up in divorce. My friend's ex-wife married the OM.....and subsequently divorced him 18 months later.
It depends on what you mean by "astoundingly rare". You could do a sample from this forum. There is info on 100 LBS that could be used for a basic sample size.
The term "band aid" is used by other MLC resources as well. It's a term to help the LBS recognize that the OM/OW is a symptom of the crisis.
I believe this....if my ex-wife was capable of being in a committed relationship, it would be with me.
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So Don'tgiveup,
yes, sometimes they marry and sometimes divorce, it happens.
I think standers have the perception that their relationship with their spouse was of good enough quality for the stander to want to wait for it to come back. AND there is a fair probability that your spouse, assuming they view the marriage in the same way at some point, will take the same view.
The trick is timing.
If we are NOT standing then probability of that intersection is low. But if one is standing then the probability is higher?
As a stander the mathematics work in favour, but nothing is certain.
Anything can happen, so we have to carry on .....Nobody said this was easy, this is very hard, I am struggling.
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Freddygone, Would the MLCer normally pick someone like this? No, the MLCer does a 180 and picks the opposite of what he normally would. In their state of low self esteem they pick someone who actually looks up to them. :o The one convenient emotional vacuum just waiting to suck them in.
My understanding of this, and correct me if I am wrong here, is that they throw us aside as a discarded fragment. Then when they are rebuilding themselves ( keeping certain parts and discarding others) after Replay is over they find us in the rubble. :o :o
I've been glad to read that they remember how we treated them in the tunnel!!! :) That's why my H must be so surprised right now. He must have thought I would have gone off about this. Never have. He must have thought I'd be vindictive and spiteful. I have not. He must have thought I'd be snide or condescending. I have not. He must have thought I'd badmouth him to kids and others. I have not.
Thanks to this website and all the great friends I have found here I have done none of these things. It's like a science experiment. When these infatuation chemicals and other band aids start making them feel WORSE........That's when the real fun begins.. ::)
.
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Anything can happen
Yes, they could get hit by a bus or die of a heart attack, and there goes your Stand!!
I've been glad to read that they remember how we treated them in the tunnel!!! That's why my H must be so surprised right now. He must have thought I would have gone off about this.
Yes.... and my husband was astounded I didn't immediately divorce him... in fact, at first he thought by confessing OW to me it would end his misery... that I would take away his choice.... but I like to torture him with making him grow up... like Joan Rivers says... "Oh GROW UP ALREADY!!"....NOW, of course, he is so grateful I didn't divorce him, though I constantly threaten... gotta stop that... it is not helping.... :-\
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LG How do you know it's not helping? Growth under the soil. Growth we can not see. He needs to think his anchor could up and go.............away.............He would NOT want that now would he?
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Hi, Ive just been reading through this discussion and am trying to sort something in my head.
If there are 2 women H has "bonded" with, which I guess means EA? Are these women seen as alienators even tho a relationship has not come out of it?
Then he leaves as he said he wants to see what sex is like with one or both, he's not sure which one he wants. He said he told her ( dont know which one) that he was in a "situation" not married- a situation! So now he is free.
But, no relationship eventuates and he is still alone
Does this indicate that maybe he misread the situation with the 2 women and thought it was more than it was? Or does being free maybe make it not so exciting anymore as he is now able to do something and not fantasise only?
Or has be become less desirable in some way now?
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Hello MsZing,
this sounds to me like either he is making comparison with his spouse and both OW did not compare very well, or he is behaving in a way that they both kick him into the long grass.
Either way I would not think he would be happy with the result and may be looking back at where he came from. Alternatively he may look for other OW, but he sounds a bit lost to me. Maybe cycling?
But he maybe still thinks he has the spouse in reserve so he can still play his game? That would be his only security I would think.
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Hi Freddy
not sure what is going on, but he still does txt a lot and want to be in touch and acts in some ways as if we are close.
I think he is lost as well and I really do feel for him.
Someone saw me with him the other day when he came to pick something up from me at work. They commented to me he was looking good. Not from where I was close up. Dull skin and eyes.
It has been commented by others that I am still his security as I am the only person really close to him.
He also commented to me last week that the party friends he hangs out with aren't the same as real friends. Well, the 2 women were party friends as well. He indicated he saw me as a real friend
I'm sure he will look for OW but I think what he is really after is just the freedom to have random sex
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Hi MsZing,
sounds like you have it assessed and you maybe have to set a boundary that cake and eat it does not work. Probably you already did, like I did. For me it made no difference.
This is true MLC, they want it all, but it is disrespectful to you and you have to assert you quality and that he may lose you. You wont put up with it.
If he turns away from you someone else may just make a play for you and then he is done.
But this has to take it's course or it will simply come back to bite later.
It also sounds like he is working out that the OW weren't so good and maybe the grass isn't greener.
Guard up, but try and understand he is mixed up, but dont be soft, don't be a door mat, be a stander.
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HI Freddy
yes I did set boundaries ad I never contact him unless in reply to a txt from him and then only in the same tone as his. I made it clear there would be no intimacy with us as he was out there with whomever.
Made it clear as well I wont help financially anymore as well.
As soon as he BD'd and said he was leaving I was at the lawyers in 3 days getting a separation agreement drawn up to protect my assets.
At the moment, if he wanted to come back right now, there is no way I want that to happen. Its too soon
I now need time for me and need him to take time for himself as well. Maybe in a year or 2. I think Im standing from a distance.
He does tell me he loves me which is nice tho
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Hi MsZing,
perfect, you are doing just fine. You should be telling me what to do, as I don't have a clue at the moment. I think just ride the rollercoaster.
What I don't understand is we pontificate, say that we are doing fine, but we still have this bond that certainly I can't turn my back on.
I have met other people who are really really lovely but, faults and all (and I can see them all) this woman of mine is still my priority. How do I switch that OFF???
Am I totally stupid?
At some point maybe they will push too far and then all will be clear. But I am not there yet.
I suppose here we just hold each other up? Support is so important and being able to rant safely.
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MsZing..... your husband's alienator right now is his MLC confusion... it made him "avaiable" and there may have been a couple of women who expressed interest until they found out his "situation" and then said "no way". MLCers are magnets for other F'd up people... I think these first two weren't F'd up enough, quite frankly.
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MsZing and LG, hey. Yeah LG that's a good way of looking at it. The ' alienator' for my H for 3 years pre BD was vicodin. Sneaking behind my back. Secret bank acct for MD $$. Lying about stuff. I think he really became paranoid. Started accusing me of having OM. WHEN??? I don't have time to eat or go pee pee. :o :o
I think once we realzie that they are bat s**t crazy then this whole thing takes on a new light. Still I slide backwards and need to be helped up again..... ::)
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I have wondered if using drugs or alcohol while going through MLC makes it harder for them to process what they need
in order to come out......If they are using more Bandaides, not just the OW/OM It seems it would take longer....
because they are clearly covering it up with that??? OK, I know this may not have made much sense....lol!!
Does any LBS's here see it worse with their MLCers using?? Just curious. :D
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I have come so far in my journey and thanks for all your insight and guidance.
There are weak moments and if I can just post my most recent moment at a time when I thought I was doing really well.
It's like the h's know and just come in and know exactly what buttons to push but I remain strong.
I just need to relay my story maybe in a need to vent and truly understand (even though I know I understand after reading and reading and then reading some more...lol) Doubt creeps in and maybe it's just reassurance I need and this is the perfect place to come for it.....
My h has periodically come to me for intimacy or flirts via text. This always confuses me as he has a very attractive OW that he lives with. In the past I must admit I gave in but I am proud of myself this time and DID NOT give in to any temptation and absoulety just said NO to him. Think he was shocked but continuously tried for a couple of days and then words came out of his mouth that I have never heard before and I don't know what to make of them.
He apologized and then said what an a**hole he is and really meant it. He has always maintained that he is doing nothing wrong so is this just part of the cycling?
He said "he needs to let me move on"...sounded absolutely crazy. Cause that means all this time he hasn't wanted to let me move on.
Maybe someone can elaborate and help me out here...I was at a very strong time and then they say something that brings me to a different place...need to stay strong and the advice here really helps!!
Thanks
CFH
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CFH
Here is RCR's article on Monster. It may give some insight into the behavior you are seeing.
http://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/mlc_overview_monster.html
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Synn, Rock Bottom equals Rock Bottom :)
He is going to CRASH sooner I imagine bc the drugs and alcohol that we had dealt with 10 years ago.......has now crept back and grabbed his a** and will pull him DOWN. Unemployed, confused, depressed, lonely (except for ugly, weird, screwed up stranger) he abandoned his family and doesn't even know that is what it is called :o :o :o I need to try an equate OW with Vicodin. Band Aid... Symptom....This too shall pass......... :) My opinion.
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CrazyforHim... your husband is in charming Monster.... like mine does... when they don't get their way (making sure you are waiting for them) they PANIC and then ugly Monster comes out.... your husband apologized... not remorse, but he does recognize he is treating you badly.... what he can't express is that he is out of control... as if SOMEONE ELSE is making him do these things... it depresses him, and he HOPES that by throwing you some crumbs, by some miracle he won't lose you.... Clingers exhibit this behavior a lot....
He KNOWS he doesn't want to lose you, regardless of what he says and does, but he also must GO DO THIS THING, whatever it is, and it's frightening, yet addictive and exhilarating all at the same time...
Do what feels right... FOR YOU!
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Freddy, I don’t really now what sort of woman, but for myself, husband would choose. He was 17 when we got together. Doubt a woman that does not mind getting involved with a married man and is up to such a regressive and juvenile life like the one his leading would be his choice if not in MLC. Well, before MLC there was no OW and he was more than pleased with me. So, the answer must be no.
Crash and burn. Maybe. One day. Well, they manage to live with the adrenalin rush for 5 or more years. It is a lot of time. Let alone for someone that is no longer a teenager or in its early twenties. It amazes me how my husband manages to still lives at the pace he does. And the getting a more fast life begun an year, maybe more, before he left. Not so fast has after he left but is was already to rushed.
Narcissistic OW2 has been with husband for more than 3 years, they live together for 2 years. Again, it lasts much more than one would expect for such type of demanding and exausting relashionship.
Comparison between other person and LBS in the MLCer head? Maybe. If so, usually too late.
Synnica, would say drugs or alcohol will cover up what they did. They will use them as band aids in order not to see what they have done/are doing. It may make it harder for them to process. They are covering it up with several things at the same time. OW/OM, drugs and or alcohol, keeping themselves always busy (stopping means free time and free time means no wanted thoughts can come up), surround themselves with friends that approve their livestyle. They’ll use anything that proves them they are right and nothing is wrong with them.
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Hello AnneJ,
it seems to me that, like my wife, who I also met at her age 17, they get to a point where they panic and think that life should be more than with only the same person all the time. What would it be like with someone totally different.
I understand that thought, but to have that experience realised risks a lot, but maybe it is compelling.
If the OP is a Narcissist (bad luck) they can become trapped, please see the Videos by Melody Chase about Narcissists stealing your partner. (Google)
This well known condition of the alienator is used to manipulate, control and exclude others, including close family by defining them as 'the enemy'. These people are normally close to 180 degree difference to the original partner.
My case is exactly like this and yours possibly too. This is why it takes so long, but we must not interfere, we are the enemy. Your spouse must break this for themselves.
To demonstrate the extent of this, my Wife loves her dog with a passion, like he is a person and this OM is determined to even try and break that bond and that of her adult daughters. They are crazy, but they try.
My daughter explained to me that her Mum often wakes at 2 or 3am and has problems with sleep. This is due to drinking until the sleep is alcohol induced. Then when the alcohol wears off, they wake, the bad thoughts start and they have difficulty getting back to sleep. Poor quality sleep and always tired.
The sleep after troubled thoughts affects the subconscious as we dream based upon the troubled mind which brings depression during the day....the cycle continues. No wonder they are not happy, no quality sleep and depression.
This is why we should try and avoid alcohol and drugs, watch a happy movie before bed or relive a happy memory just before sleeping.
Put your subconscious in a happy mood before you go to sleep.
If you mind is whirling with troubled thoughts just before going to sleep, you can stop this.
Listen for the next thought......
There will be a delay because you are listening.
When it comes put it aside and, listen for the next one. Soon it will stop if you are listening for them.
You take control of your brain, listen to it. Don't let your brain bully you.
I have used this technique and I no longer have this whirling mind problem, ever. It is finished. We need our sleep.
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Hello Freddy,
For what he told me at the time, 5 years ago, with him it was more a case of not being able to led such a juvenile and party boy life when he was old than anything do to with trying someone else. He is one of those persons that cannot be without a partner. But it is true that I’ve had more of silly teenager things than he had. Nothing very troubled or extreme but my parents gave me much more space and liberty than his ones.
And maybe, with my husband, it also had to do with the fact that we had been thinking about changing our life, having kids. That would had not be compatible, or not in the same way, with our, until then, more cultural-bohemian-artistic lifestyle. But we were quiet and very keep to ourselves, we did not engage in crazy or wild stuff. So maybe he felt like, this time around, he needed to challenge authority (me, the marriage, the more 2.5 kids white picket fence live we were planning), since he had not managed to challenge his parents, particularly his dad.
It may be compelling. The thing that I always wondered is that, sooner or later they are gonna have to divorce or come back. So, even the ones, like my husband, who do not want to pay alimony, give back my share of our money and so on, will have to do it case they divorce. If they do not divorce, well, they have a lot before them to handle. Can’t find a way out of it. Maybe forever stay separated? But that does not work. The spouse can still ask for temporary alimony, the spouse will not be in limbo forever and, plus, the spouse may meet someone else. So compelling it may be, is it worthy the risk? Perhaps if, afterwards, they can become such a much better person.
I think OW2 is a narcissist. Never meet her in person (I knew OW1 a little because she had been the former girlfriend of a work collaborator) but judging for the stuff she comes up with in my SIL Facebook… I’ve seen Melody’s videos. I don’t engage with her, never had, nor with husband. He is a vanisher, I’m 300 km away from them, last time I saw him was May 08. So, they pretty much have to be fueeling each other against their common enemy: me.
Thing is, 5 years without a spouse is a long time, more than 3 years without seeing the spouse way too much time. Plus I’ve changed, become older, different. No idea if it would be possible for me to reconnect with husband.
Also, not sure it husband will be able to freed himself from narcissistic OW2 if we do not divorce. I think only if all legal bounds are cut between us and he is left with her, may he come to realise what he got himself into.
I know he sleeps very little and is always making himself busy. And that he looks terrible (photos in SIL Facebook). He looks tired, exausted, dead eyes, absent, and the comments he make are very, very childish and silly. Also, if anything, I notice a huge regression and even more juvenile exccive beavior with OW2 than with OW1. With OW1 he did go party but did not attend massive and endless techno and clubbing nights parties.
My mind is fine. I have long put an end to the bad thoughs and realised I need as much sleep and rest as I could get. But, sometimes, I think I will be 50 and still be on this MLC thing…Not a nice thought!
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Annej
I am just curious here...and I don't want to step on your toes...
but, if you haven't seen your h in 3 years...How would he know you still want to be with him?? Have you at least
corresponded with him in that time, via email or text??
DO you think he will just knock on your door wanting to come back?? I don't want to sound...rude. because I am trying
to say it delicately....words have no emotions..I am just concerned that you may be giving up on your M..only because
he hasn't contacted you....make sense??
and if you have been asked this allready...I apologise for repeating..
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The few times in these 3 years I tried to talk to him all I got was abuse plus two fault divorce process against
me. Well, no contact for 3 years is a good enough reason for giving up on a marriage. There is no marriage. But the thing is I tried to contact and was kicked very, very hard. So nothing to not to give up. If I tried to contac him right now he would not talk to me.
He had approached me after OW1. Wanted me to be is girlfriend. I said no. He always said he wanted divorce but never accepted a mutual one. He does not want to pay alimony nor to have to give back my share of our money that he took.
A few weeks ago I fainted. Too hot, my blood pressure went up. I had to went to ER, come back and went to bed. Next day I woke up very confused I end up texting husband saying I was not feeling well I needed him to take me to hospital. He did not even asked what was wrong with me. There is no dialogue (through lawyers) unless I accept a divorce where I do not get alimony, my money, my own things that he still has and let him have everything.
Correspond with him?...You do not correspond with a man that spend his past 3 years, since there is OW2,s taking you to court. What are you going to talk about with him except for trying to make him go for a mutual divorce?
We talked a lot during OW1. All it served for was for him to cake eat and think he could do as he pleased. If I talked to him now he would think I'm such a doormat that he can take me to court and I still chat with him.
I do not want to be with him. Not with the person that he is now, at least. I'm not giving up on my marriage. I have no marriage. So, what I really wonder is what I'm doing in this site...But I know the answer, learning. :)
Annej
I am just curious here...and I don't want to step on your toes...
but, if you haven't seen your h in 3 years...How would he know you still want to be with him?? Have you at least
corresponded with him in that time, via email or text??
DO you think he will just knock on your door wanting to come back?? I don't want to sound...rude. because I am trying
to say it delicately....words have no emotions..I am just concerned that you may be giving up on your M..only because
he hasn't contacted you....make sense??
and if you have been asked this allready...I apologise for repeating..
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Ahh....Has nothing to do with why your here...I think you should be here..:)
I was just curious.....I see your H is pretty messed up still....how sad...and he keeps dragging you through the mud.
So sorry, I would probably do the same thing if I was you..
Hugs!
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I like being here. :)
Yep, very, very messed up. Makes one wonder for how long they can remain so messed up...and why. Don't they have a moment where they go: wait, what am I up to?...Maybe they do...
He does not drag me through the mud beacuse I don't play along. But it is an unconfortable situation. So much destruction...
MCler are similar but each of them is different so I don't think a one size fits all is enough to deal with MLC. Sometimes, even if we do not like divorce, or we think we should contact more with the MCLer, best thing to do is to divorce and not contact. But, really, 5 years of spouse MLC and 3 years of vanisher husband is a lifetime...Several babies have born in the family in that time. That makes you see how time goes by...
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Freddy
Im just trying to go with the flow and do what feels right mostly, along with help and support from others on here
Fortunately or unfortunately we love our MLCers :)
I dont think we can switch our feelings and love off, but we can keep busy GAL and keep the focus on ourselves so we are looking after ourselves and not sitting around waiting for whatever may happen.
Just keep posting, ranting and GALing :) :) :)
LG,Im relieved the 2 women are saner than H is. A bunch of crazies really isnt a great thing. I'm sure he will eventually find his "perfect women" in some club, who isnt sane..just like him. Interesting , the MLC being the alienator, I always thought of it being a person.
Mamma , we're all here to catch you and help you along the way :)
Synn , as for the drug issue. My H drinks a one litre bottle of vodka plus other drinks over the course of the weekend then uses marijuana as well. Not sure what else he is popping but he hasnt mentioned taking ' e' on occassion.
On top of antidepressants for his anxiety and depression that cant be good. Might have quite an impact on behaviour, mood and thought processes. Especially since he has had mental health issues since about 28..possibly more than what he tells me he has.
I think they way H uses drugs and alcohol is very like a teenager as in he gets excited when telling me how drunk he is and stoned. Thinks its really funny and makes him part of the in crown of young ppl he hangs out with.
I do wonder if maybe the substances slow things down as they are less likely to process things in the usual manner or time frame?
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Ok next piece of advice....what do you do when the OW finally dumps your h. She found out he still has feelings for me and finally kicked him out.
So now what do I do- he has no place to go....HELP!
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Dont panic!
First....how long has it been since she dumped him??? my H's OW has done this alot...but begs for him to come
back...My H has also told the OW that he still loves me...but that hasnt stopped her..
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crazyforhim
Here's one of RCR's articles that may give you some insight on a breakup with the alienator.
http://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/standing-actions_contact-and-communication_pursuit-and-distance_mlcer-run-when-alienator-gone.html
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I really appreciate posting of the articles and I have read them. I am looking maybe for some personal experiences
and he is exactly in the mode of he wants to come back but is scared to come back. How does that fear go away?
What can I do? He has nowhere to live, so do I offer the home (considering it's the matrimonial home and is still technically his home to begin with or will that make matters worse?
I'm trying to figure out how far I go to help him cause he is needing me right now. Trying to find my boudaries...and it is difficult when they are in pain and you love them so much.
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Crazy,
Since you have asked for some advice.....I'm going to jump right in here.
You sound like you are going into the fixer and rescuer mode. Stop! Do not do anything. Do not offer. Do not pursue. Do not approach. If he approaches you to talk about how he feels or what he should do.....Just listen.
He needs to figure it out. He needs to find his own solutions.
I understand that he also owns your home. So....leave it to him to suggest (ask) that he stay at the house. (He may not even ask or feel strong enough to ask). Leave it to him to find his own solutions.
I know that you love and care about him. I would have a difficult time in this situation myself (My H also owns our home with me and, who am I to tell him he cannot be in his own home??) - But, I would have to keep myself from offerring or helping him in any way. If he wants to talk it out - be an ear. Just listen. Do not try to solve. If you cannot keep yourself from jumping in to rescue him - put off speaking with him - until you can detach enough to get your bearings.
The MLCer is not as helpless as they appear - even when they are down. They are quite manipulative (like an addict) and you cannot trust that they have hit rock bottom. They have a way of figuring out how to return to Replay activity (even when it appears that they have lost all means to do so).
Step away from the ledge. Stop trying to fix.....Give him the space to figure out what he needs to do - on his own.
I know that this is hard to do...but, in my humble opinion, it is what you must do.
Keep posting,
Limitless
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Limitless,
Thank you so much! Just what I need- I'm trying to do nothing and I am not the one initiating contact, he is. So it's like I just
wait and I don't want to wait.
Guess I am fearful he will go back to OW cause he has nowhere else to go.
But I do know what I need to do- doing it is the hard part...lol!
Keep posting,
This is just what I need....
Thanks :)
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Crazy,
One other thing.....
If your H goes back to OW - because he has nowhere else to live - you also have to be prepared for this....and you have to be prepared to do NOTHING.
If he goes back to her - from desperation - you need to be able to trust the process and understand that the "relationship" will not work. It already isn't working.
Do not feel that because you didn't offer for him to come back home - that you "drove" him to OW. He needs to be responsible for making his own decisions and solving his own mess. YOU are not responsible for what he chooses to do.
MLCers lives become unmanageable. They find themselves in debt. They find themselves risking so much, as they head for rock bottom. This is meant to happen. It is part of the process. Learning that their attempts to avoid and run away (Replay) no longer work for them - is part of the process. If the LBS jumps in and rescues - we are actually helping them to avoid. While others (like the OW) will help our MLCers avoid and continue Replay - we know better.....so we must keep ourselves from jumping in with both feet.
Just like a child learning to walk - we need to allow them to "fall" and learn to take these vital steps on their own.
Hugs,
L
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Crazy,
I'm going to go with limitless, don't do anything. Your husband needs to sort himself out of the mess he got into my his own means.
Since 6 months afeter OW1 we no longer have marital home (I move back with my family) but as soon as I was here husband wanted me to help him sorting out is troubles. I said no, he his the one who has to sort is troubles out. Then, when OW1 was over he got in touch, he wanted to reconect, be friends, be my boyfriend. I said no. He was not ready ready.
A few months after he found OW2 in a club, they live together and its been an ever bigger mess since. And, yes, many times, I the fixer, had thought about sorting this out. But I know it will not work. He has to go through it on his own. Even if it means that he will keep taking me to court.
Like limitless said, if we jump and rescue them we will be helping them to avoid. Stay strong and look after yourself.
Hugs.
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I really do love all this support-
but of course the break up didn't last long...didn't really think it would. So now they are back together.
Ugh!!
I know what I have to do...
I so realize this takes time and it's hard to imagine that they can actually come out of this better people.
Cause how do you finally take a good hard look at your life when you are with an OW and avoiding at all costs.
I will be strong...I will get through this and at the end I know that I will have gone on a greater journey of my own self discovery.
That in itself is something to look forward to
Thanks again,
CFH
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I'm still trying to figure out why the alienator is still with my H even though my H moved back home a year ago. Even though we are romantically involved, she still clings to him as if he will up and leave again. Maybe he will....I don't know. But he claims he won't and that he's told her that. I'm sorry, but if I were her, I wouldn't be holding on to a married man who has moved back home and remains married. In a way, I feel sorry for her. But in another way, she's getting what she deserves as she played a hand in this affair as well. I've lost count at how many times they've split up.
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HI CHloe
I wonder how much of their clinging is about power and control? Wanting to prove they can grab and hold another woman's H and then feel they are special or better in some way?
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That's a really good point MsZing, but how scarily dysfunctional!!
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Kikki
Ive seen women like that and I have had friends like that as well. They tip their hat for a married or taken man to prove they are more desireable than the other woman. Very sick and b!tc#y! Have to be pretty heartless and have low self esteem and no morals! Hey sounds like an OW LOL
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Have to be pretty heartless and have low self esteem and no morals! Hey sounds like an OW LOL
Sure does ???
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These OW have so many issues that I think some of them just won't let go. They need to learn lessons too and get help for their issues and stop ruining other peoples lives.
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hi ladies i know what you mean about the o/w being clingy and needy...but remember its our h's that allow to them to be .....if our h's truly wanted them out of their lives for good they would find away.....at the minute these o/w are filling in a void they think can be only met by o/w...its easier for our h to cope with o/w as they dont have the strength yet to face up to what they have done with us/family..never mind repair it.........it will come one day and the o/w will be thrown under the bus. xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
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WGH, I would sell tickets to see my H's OW thrown under a bus!
Foxy xxxx 8)
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Fox
Selling tickets to watch OW being thrown under a bus gives her power she doesn't deserve. Better to let her fall under the bus alone without anyone thinking about her :-X . Now that is real karma ;D
xx
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My friend was recently talking about the OW in her sitch. Her H has cheated on his OW through their whole R. The OW is emotionally needy and constantly forgives him. The other day, I guess OW had enough and kicked him out after he finally showed Monster in a public place around her kids (and everyone else). She left him over an hour away from their home. The OW and my friend have talked before (initiated by OW) when the WS had cheated on OW the first time. My friend listened and told the OW ... if you marry a man who cheats on his wife, you are married to a man who may cheat on his wife. She was not agreeing with their relationship, but showed the OW that she (the OW) had no affect on her. She could carry on a conversation with her and not let it get to her when the OW was trying to get advice from the wife (totally weird... but she successfully let the OW know that the OW had no control over her). She had no positive advice for the OW who was trying to find out where her BF (the WS) was.
He is now living with his sister and my friend wonders if he will finally hit rock bottom and start working on his own issues. Things in la la land are not always as bright and sunny as the WS would have the LBS believe.
Don't give the OW any thought or energy... just sit back and wait for the building to crumble.
Summer
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CrazyForHim....
Your husband was not ready to come home.... he is in a stage of breakup/makeup with his OW that can last an exasperatingly long time... he will use you to "keep her in line" as in "You're a crazy bit** and I can move home any time... I'm still married" which is the BIGGEST threat to her... she then gets hysterical and begs n pleads..... tells him she won't be so jealous, needy, insecure any more... that she'll do anything to behave.. whatever he wants.
Remember, he is trying to find PEACE in his life.... he needs a soft place to rest while all of this craziness is swirling around in his head! In the beginning, OW was that place... now she's a pain in the a**, but he knows that HOME is not peaceful, cuz his wife will snap and berate him about his affair, LOL!! Sometimes they just need a place to rest.... Your husband isn't there yet... they will break up many more times... you may even hear him tell you he's got all his stuff and it's over for good with her, only to find he runs right back in a couple of days with some made up excuse.... Try not to take it too personally, or to bother telling him no... you don't NEED to... he will say one thing and turn it around immediately, so don't sweat the stuff like "where will he sleep if he moves home"... it's not going to be a real issue for a while. Sorry....
Also, the fact that your husband is still married, and has a HOME with his wife will ALWAYS keep OW insecure..... but they can go on for years that way... ???
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LettingGo,
Not the answer I was looking for but I actually could feel that he is not ready. And OMG I can't believe this could go on for years....
It's so crazy to think that all this drama makes him stay there and makes her stay with him.
Absolutely crazy!!
I would rather be the LBS than the MLCer for sure.
Keep posting,
CFH
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I know this question is counter productive but can someone tell me why everyone else that has met OW has said she is so nice and sweet and treats my H so good. So I guess it is hard to get that out of my mind...if I knew she was horrible and mean it would be easier to accept that the relationship was falling apart. So I am trying very hard to wipe images and thoughts from my brain cause she is portrayed as this saint...(omg sounds so crazy) especially when the forgive H for everything they do.
Please tell me how the relationship crumbles if she is doing everything to make H happy????
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This is how....
http://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/standing-actions_dealing-with-infidelity_woman-scorned2.html
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Crazy,
It gets really strange when they are breaking up and making up....it can be exhausting!! Ugh! Just hang in there...You will be fine!
Just continue to watch from afar...This is when I really started paying attention to my H's behaviours as it changed dramatically
about every 3 days or so...HUGS
My H's OW treats him like dirt....uses blackmail and sex to get her way.
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Yes it does get strange...just when you think it can't get any stranger.
This is only the first breakup and get back together so i guess watching from afar has opened my eyes to a few things...
H doesn't seem happy. OW is trying to make everyone believe they are so happy
Im getting there...I feel stronger!
Only time will tell...lol!!!!
CFH
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Crazy, everybody will that has meet other woman will tell se is so nice and sweat because that is how she is presenting herself to everybody. She has to be so nice and sweet. He is married, she has to convice everyone she is the one for him.
Everyone that had meet husband’s OW1 would say the something about her. In reality, for the little I knew of her, se was nice and sweet. And clingy. And she had me on her way. OW2 also is charming with everyone. But unlike OW1 she does drive husband to be against me. Yes, even if OW is doing everything to make husband happy the relashionship will end. OW1 was everything husband needed, she was all I was not, she was what he wanted to invest in. Well, she is gone forever. True, they never lived together and now there is OW2.
LG, funny that think of them always fighting and making up. And the fact that the man still married is a thread for OW. We no longer have marital home, so, no way husband can come back home in that sense. However, if all they want is peace, why do they stay with somenone that, like my husband’s OW2 just ads to the mess and stress? I know for a fact that husband filled for the second fault divorce against be after the tow of them had a fall out. There has been a public event and OW2 though husband was giving too much attention to another woman. Next thing you know the man is filling again against is wife. Why on earth do they have so much trouble trying to please or prove something to OW/OM? Why put up with an insecure person and with stuff they would never put up with a spouse? And the ones who’ve had a first OW/Om already know what happens even if they do everything to please the other person. It will not end in happiness.
Summer, a man that cheated on his wife will not necessarily cheat on another person. But some do. But we have spouses that have cheated on the wife, so, why are they good for us and not for someone else? They may just cheat on us again as well… Do we sell ourselves short?...I always wonder about this one because we would not want a relationship with a man that has abandoned and cheated on the wife…It’s a paradox…
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From AnneJ
"a man that cheated on his wife will not necessarily cheat on another person"
Whether he actually will or not, I don't know. But the alienator knows beyond a shadow of a doubt that he is capable of it.....since he cheated on his wife to be with her.....and what effect does that have on the trust between the MLCer and alienator?
From RCR's article The Woman Scorned part II
•She's in a relationship with someone who has proven capable of cheating.
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Crazyforhim.... Ow might be nice and sweet, but she will turn into a raving lunatic VERY SOON!! Remember how your husband made you CRAZY prior to BD? It's now happening to her.... she doesn't feel secure.... doesn't trust him, is starting to notice he is weird, but she's invested a lot into her married boyfriend and NOW, he "Owe's" her as far as she's concerned....
Also, she may have waited on him hand and foot and never complained about anything..... but now it starts to feel like S'Mothering.... I see it in the young women I work with all the time... they are "so in LOVE" with their boyfriends and can't WAIT to play house and move in with him, but I'm already hearing that cutesy "OMG, I'm like.... do your laundry!! Why are you such a slob? I get MY laundry done.... you should be doing that instead of hanging out with your friends!"..... right now it's cute, cuz they haven't hit the two year infatuation wall yet... after that... it is perceived as NAGGING, LOL!!
OW doesn't have to be NASTY, all she has to be is CLINGY and DEPENDENT!! My husband was SO enamored with how "independent" his skank OW was..... now she's "TOO dependant" so I asked him, "well, which IS it? Is she a woman who doesn't NEED a man... or is she TOO NEEDY for a man?" You should have seen the look of confusion on his face... it was priceless!!
Trust the process!
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From AnneJ
"a man that cheated on his wife will not necessarily cheat on another person"
Whether he actually will or not, I don't know. But the alienator knows beyond a shadow of a doubt that he is capable of it.....since he cheated on his wife to be with her.....and what effect does that have on the trust between the MLCer and alienator?
From RCR's article The Woman Scorned part II
•She's in a relationship with someone who has proven capable of cheating.
True, OW/OM is in a relashionship with a man/woman that has proven his capable of cheating. But it is also true that we will be (or are) in a marriage with a man/woman that is capable of cheating, abandon a do bunch of mean crazy things to a spouse. So, what effect does that and the existence has on the relashionship and trust between husband and wife? From a logical perpective, the wife/husband has it worst. He/she married her/him and had cheated on her/him. OW/OM is just OW/OM, he/she did not married her/him.
Does this makes sence to you DGU?
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Yes, trust will certainly have to be rebuilt between husband and wife.
http://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/self-focus_assurances_trust_deception-destroys-trust.html
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I've forgotten where I read this, but it was something along the lines of - with our spouses relationships with OW/OM being built on lies and deceit, this puts it on a very different platform than the relationships that we built with them over the years.
From the word go, these people will be waiting and watching our spouses for any signs of the same behaviour (well, not too far into their R anyway), and this is not a position from which strong roots and foundations are built.
After being together for so long and having such history, we're dealing with something completely different than the superficial replay R with OM/OW.
My H has said on a few occasions how selfish both he and OW are - nice!!! and that when he left he was no longer capable of having a R with me and - in fact I'm not capable of having a R with anyone ....... 'Well no sh*t sherlock' as Affaircare said somewhere .......
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Kikki
You may be referring to this blog from RCR.
http://loveanyway.theherosspouse.com/?paged=31
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True, our relasionship with them begin in a very different way, frame of mind, emotional state.
With OW/OM it may be superficial but it can last a long time. too long for such shallow thing.
Kiki, at least your husband is aware of how incapable of having a deep relashionship with anyone he is at the moment.
DGU, right now I do not trust my husband. The man has even lied to court about where he lives and the reasons why we are separated. And he had never told me that there was OW2 and that he lived with her. However he had no problems with parading with her around town, have their "relashionship" on Facebbok and invitev people into their house. Of course I found out that there is OW2 and that they live together. But never made in any questions about the subject.
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"DGU, right now I do not trust my husband."
You should not trust your husband right now. You have no reason to.....quite the opposite.
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Bingo DGU - It's in the Blog! ;D
How do you do that?
'Adulterous relationships rarely survive because they are adulterous. They don’t break up because of irreconcilable difference or incompatibility. No, they fail because deception is not something upon which to build anything of permanence. With deception comes a lack of trust and with a lack of trust comes jealousy and attempts to manipulate and control.'
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I know, DGU. But 5 years of not trusting someone you've trusted for 20 years is weird. Husband always gets very upset because I don't trust him.
"Adulterous relationships rarely survive because they are adulterous. They don’t break up because of irreconcilable difference or incompatibility. No, they fail because deception is not something upon which to build anything of permanence. With deception comes a lack of trust and with a lack of trust comes jealousy and attempts to manipulate and control."
True. But I still think they last a long time for the nature they have.
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True. But I still think they last a long time for the nature they have.
True - This is a very depressing fact
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More than depressing it is intriguing and puzzling. If they would last 2,3, 6 months, a year in the most, that would make sense. But years? ???
There are lots of people out there willing to put up with such relashionships, our spouses included.
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I think the length of time has more to do with the MLC than the relationship. If it was just about the relationship, it would seem the ones who do end the relationship with the alienator early would go back to the spouse. But they do not....they may go back to the alienator, or they may find another alienator.
RCR's article MLCers Run Even When the Alienator is Gone discusses this a bit. The relationship is a symptom of the crisis.....but yes, it does make one shake their head how long it lasts.
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That's one of the things that has puzzled me too......My H has been fighting with OW for months...
confessed that they fought the first actual date they had...,I have even witnessed some of their
fights and she is horrible....has cursed, pushed, hit...and even threatened to call the cops saying H
hit her when in fact he didn't....I have heard her blackmail him...
He has said that he doesn't trust her and she doesn't trust him...DUH!! :o :o Cant expect much from a R that
started out by deceit...hellooooo!!! I think they are so wrapped up in the HIGH, they cant see straight...
How can THAT be bliss??
H and I hadn't fought in 5 years....we argued, but we had stopped the childish fighting long ago and he has even
said..that he told OW, That he couldn't figure out why they couldn't get along...and that him and I hadn't fought
in years... :o
I have even read a letter and email, where OW says she wish she could be a better person to H....that she was
always sorry for treating him the way she did.....her excuse was she couldn't get over the fact that him and I
slept together and that she knew he still loved me... :o :o ( even though, they fought before H even came home from NY)
I often wonder....WHY does SHE stay?? dragging her poor son across country and back...ripping him from his friends
and family....even allowing him to call my H dad... :o What will this do to HIM?? That just shows I would NEVER
allow my D to be around OW. Period. I would fight tooth and nail to protect my child. End of discussion.
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DGU, yes, if it was only the relashiosnhip when it ends they would either go back to the spouse or stay on their own. They seldom stay on their own. Running back to the alienator is also kind of strange. They run back to the alienator but do not come back to the spouse?...
Syn, that of your husband’s other woman can not get over the fact that your husband sleeps with you and loves you is so out there. Common, she is the OW, you are the spouse… I always find absurd when an alienator complains about the wife or husband. They are the extra one, they do not have the right to complain. They accept the situation, so, no complaining, no b!tc#ing the spouse.
I can get lust and pure physical attraction. Or that a person may drunk too much and end up in a one night love affair. Those things happen. But this alienator think of being upset because their OM/OW still sleeps and loves the spouse I found totally childish. OK, I know, I’m always wanting things to make sense and be logical. ;D
Dragging children into these situations is insane. Just goes to prove my theory that there a lot of unbalanced people with low self esteem and disregard for others.
Investing energy, time and give and money in a married person is loony. Bring your children into it even more loony.
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Ok everyone...
This is quite ironic that in a matter of days my H broke up with the OW then got back together a day later and
then oddly enough (LOL) the divorce papers come out tonight. How ironic- guess the OW has something to do with this.
Don't know if I should fight the divorce or give H what he wants.
No lawyers are involved, says we can do this cause we agree on everything.
Any advice?
CFH
Yes and the relationships between OW and H do last long...can I ask everyone if they could post how long their H's relationships have lasted with OW's?
Mine is (from the dates H told me) 16 months with 1 break up and get back together
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So, she pressured him to do it...and he did.
Wow.....Just like the script says.
There are plenty of LBS on this site that have been served D papers, are in the middle of D, or are already D. It doesn't appear to be the end, by any means.
I will leave it to those who have gone through this step to advise you. It wouldn't be a bad idea to get some legal advice.....whether or not you choose to hire an attorney. It would be worth the $$ to get some advice.
I'm sorry that it is coming to this. Remember, MLC gets worse before it gets better.
Hugs,
L
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I am assuming the pressure to talk about the D is because of the break up
and that must have been a condition of getting back together.
Not sure how D could not mean the end?
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crazyforhim
"Not sure how D could not mean the end?"
Because the MLC process will continue regardless of marital status. That does not mean you agree to divorce. Your financial situation may determine what you need to do. While you really can't stop him from getting a divorce, you do not have to agree to one. Make him do all the work.
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Crazy,
There are quite a few LBS on this site who are divorced...Some of these LBS have as much, if not more contact from their MLCer than LBS who are still married to their MLCer (I am including myself on this one).
Some MLCers need to have the divorce to believe that the marriage is over to move forward through the tunnel.
In this for the long haul - is divorced....yet she and her ex-H may be reconnecting.....you may want to read through her threads....
Below is her first thread.
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/story-threads-2010/never-saw-it-coming/msg12222/#msg12222
L
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Guess that is what I meant.
D to me means the end of the relationship...not the MLC.
Makes sense but figured if I fight him on the divorce that won't help my stand.
We only talked a bit about it and have alot more to go- so I am assuming that it won't happen tomorrow.
But just wanted some advice
Thanks all,
CFH
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I would suggest that divorce is a legal process that brings and end to a legal entity; the "partnership" formed by your and your spouse. No more, no less.
Anyone who gets divorced and has kids knows that the relationship doesn't end, it merely changes. The same goes for people who don't have kids; it's just not as obvious.
People can and do get remarried quite often.
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My two cents worth..... if you don't need a divorce for financial protection or division of assets, and you don't want one, why would you agree to one? Because your crazy a** husband is trying to shut his OW up temporarily so he can get some peace?
In my sitch, we didn't have many assets to "protect" and my husband was already paying all the bills plus support every week.... for me, it was actually better to not get a divorce. However, I wish there were some way I could have protected my husband's credit throughout the last year of spending on the apartment (that he lied about and said he didn't pay for) and the thousands of dollars of furniture he bought for him and OW that she now owns... also, there's that $2000 bed she sleeps in... >:( >:( >:( now I will have to demand an even MORE expensive bed in the future... ours is 15 years old... but I digress....
Also, I determined I didn't think my husband really wanted a divorce... I had asked him a question months before "Do you see us together one year from now? How about two years from now?" and he answered that he saw us together two years from that time... so I knew the divorce talk was all OW and i wasn't going to hand my husband over to her on a silver platter.
OW must be a raving lunatic by now since he has moved out of their apartment together, the lease was up and she had to get out also, he lives with his wife and kids (although, he probably lies to her and says he doesn't live anywhere, LOL!".
I don't know your financial situation, but if you don't "need" a divorce, why agree to one?
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This is really hard for me to believe the OW's can really be this manipulating and calculating but I guess some people really are purposely hurtful and cruel.
An incriminating (and intimate) e-mail that was supposed to be sent to me by H was actually a set up by the OW so she could finally get what she wants out of him. No wonder he doesn't remember sending it...he didn't send it she did!!! OMG! Blows my mind.
So now that she has him right where she wants him he is required by her to get a divorce and a list of other things that he needs
to do in order for their relationship to stay together. This is ridiculous...I hope in my heart he learns of this manipulation soon- too cruel and heartless for me to even imagine.....
And of course he feels obligated to comply- in his mind he did a horrible thing and needs to prove his love to her....this is sick!!
I feel I have to not give him a divorce just to protect my family cause I'm not sure what she will do.
Please tell me how the H's figure out all this manipulation. It is so sad to watch....and I am watching from afar and keeping my mouth closed but now I feel I have to fight against giving him a divorce and again it will be me being the "b*tch".
But her not getting her way will also make her crazy, right?
Just when you think things are calming down...they manage to get more dramatic by the day!!
Thanks all for reading my vent....
CFH
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Crazy
This is one the hardest things for me to watch as well......we are the sane ones and can clearly see that the OW is manipulating our H's...Not only do I see it, but so does our family and our friends.
Some of our closest friends have lost respect for him because he says one thing and does another....one of his closest
friends helped him move out of the apt back in Feb, I think...my H told his friend everything that OW did...and shocked
his friend....but then the next day my H went back....after his friend got out of bed...and helped him.
It made him very upset to see him fall for her crap...and continued to do so..
Sad really.
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I don't think you have to 'fight' the D. What if you just said, "I do not want a D, but I know I cannot stop you from getting one if that is what YOU really want. "
You might add, "We both know you do not want one." IDK.
(Get legal advice anyway :P)
It IS very sad to watch them give in to such obvious manipulation. :'(
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LGO,
Yes, I understand I don't want to "fight" the D. Do they actually realize that they don't want it. Not sure he will admit it even if he doesn't want the "D".
All I can do is hope and pray that one day (very soon would be great) that he realizes what she is doing to him.
Boggles my mind that they can't see the forest through the trees. Especially when it is so obvious.
Also hard to believe that underneath the fake smiles and laughs and him saying that he is so happy, there is such pain inside.
That is also hard to believe (didn't think he was that good an actor)
CFH
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I am right there with you. ^^^^
But as time goes on, he is getting worse at the acting and others wiill start to see what you see.
It iwll get harder and harder to maintain the happy face, and take more and more OW "fix" to keep the demons at bay, while at the same time, OW will
keep pushing for more and more....the crash HAS to happen. i have faith in that...most of the time.
I believe it is easier for them to let OW think for them, and go along with her directives, than it is for them to think on their own &/or stand up to her. They can't risk being alone...the demons come out then!
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Crazy, I’m with LG and LGO, if you don’te need the divorce for financial protection or division of assets, you can say what LGo suggest “I do not want a D, but I know I cannot stop you from getting one if that is what YOU really want. " However, be prepared for your husband to file for a fault divorce. They can get mad, specially if there is a very manipulative OW.
Their need to prove their love and to comply to OWS/OM never ceases to amaze me. Their priorities and sense of reason become completely messed up. Really sad to watch them get manipulated and played the way they are.
Syn, lost of respect is a issue I have with my husband. On top of currently not trusting him I do not respect him.
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Understanding is power and I find the more I understand about the whole MLC
process the more I can detach and move on.
So is it really all we have to do is wait for the OW to get more controlling and manipulative and then H really sees who she is.
But if the marriage was so bad with us before, what on earth makes them think that it can work again if they have done everything they can to keep OW in their lives and do whatever she says. Quite pathetic...it does start to make me lose respect for my H.
H never let me control him and tell him what to do...that's what makes me angry is he allows OW to do that
and they aren't even married.....argh!
CFH
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But her not getting her way will also make her crazy, right?
Yes... in fact, her not getting her way has ALREADY made her crazy hasn't it? I hope you are keeping every text and email from him documented.... I have done this.... not only for legal protection if I had needed it, but simply so that my husband can see HOW LONG he has been saying to me he wants to come home and does not want her....
Yes, I understand I don't want to "fight" the D. Do they actually realize that they don't want it. Not sure he will admit it even if he doesn't want the "D".
Yes, they actually realize they don't want it... but they have doubts.. OW has his ear right now... it won't always be that way, I promise! ;) No need for him to "admit" anything.... you can still tell him "I know you don't really want this..." but it could bring out teenage Monster, LOL!! Better to not bring it up. If HE brings it up, you can say "I need time to think about this...." that way, he can tell OW he "tried" and to back off for now.... all he is looking for is some way to relieve her pressure about it... like a teenager who can say to his friends "I want to stay out all night, but my stupid parents would take my car keys away for a month, so.... have fun without me!"....
Have you ever considered that, like a teenager, he secretly wants you to stop him somehow? My husband always seemed RELIEVED when he would bring up D and I would just say "we're not getting one..." then he'd say "How do you know?" and I would tell him "Cuz we're not." and go about my business.... it never brought out monster in him.... like I say, he always seemed RELIEVED.... either that SOMEONE in their right mind seemed CERTAIN of something.... or that he could tell OW he tried but I wouldn't agree to it.
There was a time when he was determined to divorce me.... very quickly... and if he'd had $6000 for a retainer, I would have been served... I'm certain of it. I dodged that bullet, and he now says he will not give ME a divorce, hahahaha!! You need to find out the laws in your state... in PA, I could divorce him in 60 days on grounds of abandonment and adultery WITHOUT his consent... if he filed against me, I could contest and it would take him TWO YEARS to get one... by contest, I don't mean spend a fortune fighting it.... I get TWO years before a unilateral divorce is granted. So, find out your rights.... my husband was SHOCKED when I finally revealed to him how precarious his sitch with ME was but how it would take forever for him to divorce me if I didn't agree to it... SHOCKED!!
Once you know the law in your state, you can let him Monster it out if it makes him feel better, LOL!! By the way, mine told me "adultery is a biblical term, not a legal one!" I let him stay in the dark about that one for a long time..... who knows how much influence OW had over the D talk... my guess is, a LOT, though he would probably never admit it... they want to PLEASE OW and she threatens to leave if he doesn't get his sh** together, and it's a credible threat!! But, she won't go anywhere... that's another thing I told my husband... not to worry... OW wasn't going anywhere anytime soon.... she is a doormat and will accept ANYTHING from him... of course I've been prove right many, many times about her now, so he trusts me....
Don't worry about coming across as the Bit**..... you are the wife. What if he is secretly hoping you will not agree to a divorce? Then, who looks like the demanding and controlling bit** to him??? OW... that's who. ;)
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Understanding is power and I find the more I understand about the whole MLC
process the more I can detach and move on.
Yes, the more we know about MLC the more we can detach.
So is it really all we have to do is wait for the OW to get more controlling and manipulative and then H really sees who she is.
But if the marriage was so bad with us before, what on earth makes them think that it can work again if they have done everything they can to keep OW in their lives and do whatever she says. Quite pathetic...it does start to make me lose respect for my H.
I think eventually they end up realising how OW is controlling. But it may take a very long time for them to see it. My husband has been in OW2 for over 3 years and does not look like he has seen a thing. Maybe they think if they do whatever OW wants it will work. Or maybe it is something else. My husband did a lot of what OW1 wanted and she did not last. So I think with OW2 he is trying do even more, live with her, etc. It is all very pathetic and it can really make one lost respect for husband.
H never let me control him and tell him what to do...that's what makes me angry is he allows OW to do that
and they aren't even married.....argh!
Don't let her, or what your husband does for her, make you mad. You will only give her power. Just stand back and watch how pathetic it really is. It becomes very sad but also very amusing.
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If HE brings it up, you can say "I need time to think about this...." that way, he can tell OW he "tried" and to back off for now....
I've done that during OW1 and it worked. Not divorce pappers, no court cases. But it stoped work since OW2 come along. As soon as their relashionship was public he went staright to the court and file for a fault divorce. Any ideia why such change between OW1 and OW2, LG?
Have you ever considered that, like a teenager, he secretly wants you to stop him somehow? ...What if he is secretly hoping you will not agree to a divorce?
I though I was the only one that has always thought that husband would want me to stop him somehow. And not just the divorce, all is crazy life style as well.
Of course, If I say I'll think about divorce, we will not come back, if I say no to divorce he will be monster, if I say yes but only if my finantial protection and assets are split I get moster and court. If I ask if we would like to be back and get spewimg monster and "Never, marrying you was the worst mistake of my life" said amid hysterical laughs and a mad tone of voice...So, wonder what the man really wants...
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Now I have been told by many that OW is not controlling at all. I guess manipulating is a form of control though, right?
And how do I really know that she is becoming "CRAZY" so to speak...??
Sometimes I wish I was a fly on their wall...no that would mean I am focused on them too much. I am learning...lol
My H absolutely hated when anyone would try and control him, whether it be me..his mom...anyone. So I find it so hard to believe he allows her to do the same. Just craziness- something he would never allow anyone to tell him what to do.
So is it possible that he would put up with this less because of that part of his personality or would MLC take over
CFH
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Now I have been told by many that OW is not controlling at all. I guess manipulating is a form of control though, right?
It absolutely is a form of control.
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Touché JA xxxx
Point taken
Fox xx
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Annnej There was someone on here once that said their H said " Why didn't you try and stop me..." :o :o Remember LG? Who was that? LOL... My Hs eyes always look like he can't stop himself and I guess from everything I've read and heard they are compelled to abandon,run and start NEW LIFE!!!
I'm glad I just read a bump on a different thread by HB where she describes how close to insanity the MLCer really is . It's in the thread called Laughing During MLC. There is a really great explanation she gives for their craziness!!!!!! I'm printing it out and keeping it. Reminds me to stop asking WHY? They are insane for now. :o
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The OW in my situation wanted someone to help her "escape" her own loveless marriage. Or so she said. She wanted to replace her H. My H was going to "save" her. I was a lazy, good for nothing, user manipulator and I didn't deserve my H and I deserved to be abandoned. According to her. And when my H said he was going back home to us, she gave it to him with both barrels: I was lying, manipulating him, my 'changes" were superficial and temporary; that I was insecure and I needed a meal-ticket and that I was a horrible mother for taking him back and setting a poor example for my kids. For some reason (God?) my H resisted that.
Here's something: One of my "friends" is an OW. She hates the wife. Absolutely HATES her. Calls her "lucky" for having the H for as long as she did, and now she should get over it and get the divorce because SHE (as OW) needs to start saving money with her much older boyfriend H. Disgusting really. Frankly, i tell her so. As an OW, she is very pushy with H. The only difference is that I don't think that particular H is an MLCer. But she's an Alienator. Oddly enough, she is kind and compassionate in all other areas in her life. In this respect, she is absolutely selfish.
The OW in my personal MLC situation told me nicely in a letter that my H speaks highly of me, and that I should muster all of my strength to deal with the situation to come. In other words, "take a hike lady. I don't care if it hurts the kids and the family. I want your H, he's mine and get over it."
(Now that H is home, I fantasize about sending her Her own words back, but I won't lower myself.)
Toward the end of their relationship, she called my H a cheater, and 'weak" and accused him a lying about plans etc. There was no way a relationship like that was going to work. I often ask myself, why would you want a man like that? The OW in my situation was a psychology major. Didn't she see the trouble ahead. I'd love to ask her "WTH were you thinking???" but, i don't want to hear her voice, and I don't want her to think I care any more than just a morbid curiosity of psychotic behavior.
angelgirl
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Angelgirl, That was interesting, Thanks. I sometimes work with an OW. I didn't know it. But we were talking one day and I had told her about BD etc 7.5 months ago. She says "Oh my boyfriend Fred is married. He said if his wife was nice to him he'd go home." :o :o :o :o She didn't care either way if he stayed or left. So nonchalant. Hmmmmmm! I think OW Bowser has impressed her trailer-park-like self by bagging my handsome H. Too bad he looks as HB puts it "On the edge of total insanity...." and they are. Sad part ...I feel so much better knowing that. It's a big nut to crack. ::)
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Angel,
isn't it funny how the OW thinks they know everything about us?? My H's OW told me that I needed to pick myself up
by my bootstraps and get over my H...That he didn't love nor want me anymore.....LOL!!!
She also told me that I needed to get a job so that HE didn't have to support HIS D... :o :o :o
And at one point..( in the beginning) said that she wanted her and I to be friends HUH!! :o :o
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Mamma, went and read what HB wrote on other thtread. Quite interesting. Something tellsme that, one day, I'll be hearing that Why didn't you try and stop me..."
Start new life, for sure. Husband had said that lots of times, start from zero, live a new life.
Just fear that some of them will became insane forever or will never be totally sane again. Maybe I'm just being silly with this worry...
angel, on the risk of saying the same over and aver and over, never get why OW/OM hates, dislikes or is upset with husband/wife. I know, they OW/OM, like the LMCer, also are not thinking straight. ::)
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Oh, Lordy!! I don't know much about my husband's OW... other than he told me she says he "gives me too much power over her" huh?? :o I'm his wife, ya big dummy!! Also, that she NEVER wants him to EVER step foot in our house AGAIN!!! ;D ;D ;D ;D Obviously she doesn't know we SLEEP TOGETHER if I WANT to, LOL!! What an idiot.... he lies to her more than he lies to me... I guess that's an improvement, hahaha!! The worm has turned, and eventually we will come full circle where he gives her "the speech" as he ONLY has eyes for me... we're getting very, very close!! ;)
AnneJ, the reason OW is upset with the wife is because SHE FEELS ENTITLED TO YOUR HUSBAND!!! It doesn't matter if he EVER even made false promises to her... she FEELS ENTITLED!! She is a selfish BIT**, plain and simple.
Often times, they appear to be "strong women" who "don't need a man" and that is attractive to SOME men.... my husband's Mother falls into this category, but she's really a wuss and wants a man fulltime, just can't get one because she's TOO INDEPENDENT, if you know what I mean... it's not a real independence... it's just a "I prefer my life with no surprises" mentality... well, my husband was attracted to his clone of a Mother (I suspect) in order to work some things out in MLC, but NOW, finds it a COMPLETE turnoff... especially when he notes what a BAD mother she is (thinks the same of his own) and how she "doesn't need a man" (therefore rendering him USELESS in a relationship other than as a paycheck...)........ anyway.. it's complicated and twisted.
OW are delusional and they think that just because they have 5 kids with 5 different baby daddies that don't support their kids and they work all the time as a single Mom, that ALL women should join the club... well, excuse me!! BUT, I am in the club of "married, had children together... building a life together..." .
RCR does address the difference between Men and Women when it comes to love and war.... women don't GIVE a damn that we're on the same team... as far as they are concerned, we are just COMPETITION..... >:( so you'd better get TOUGH!!
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I would think that if my H was so happy, wouldn't he try and show me how happy he is...
When I see him he always looks miserable and tired. If I was trying to prove how happy I was, I would actually
look happy.
I guess the act can't continue forever.
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AnneJ, the reason OW is upset with the wife is because SHE FEELS ENTITLED TO YOUR HUSBAND!!! It doesn't matter if he EVER even made false promises to her... she FEELS ENTITLED!! She is a selfish BIT**, plain and simple.
I'm truly sorry to disapoint OW and break her heart, but the only person entitled to my husband is me! ;D No idea what husband promissed, if anything, to OW1 or OW2. Not my business. I'm the wife. I care about what he promised me.
But I'm not gonna get a fight with OW. Sorry, I'm not very good at this love arena women are good at. So, no fighting over the same man.
crazy, yep, if they are so happy, why do they not look happy when around us?...Because they are not happy? Right? Right! ;D
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Anne- that's what I was thinking. I am happy around my H.
So guess they aren't happy..like someone said the act can't last forever cause I remember times when he was sooo happy
I thought Omg. Well not anymore!
Sometimes (and I'm getting better at this) I take it personally and think he is just not wanting to be around me.
Took a long time to get past that and now I only slip up once and a while.
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From Synica:
"isn't it funny how the OW thinks they know everything about us?? My H's OW told me that I needed to pick myself up
by my bootstraps and get over my H...That he didn't love nor want me anymore.....LOL!!!"
Unfortunately, I suspect the OW DOES know everything about me. It's one of the most depressing and hateful things about this whole mess.
My H and OW have been together going on 3 years. I know they've been sleeping together for over two years, maybe longer.
I'm sure, given the level of intimacy and the length of time and the fact they've been living together in close quarters on a boat for the past 8 months, he's told her all about me. She probably knows more about me than my therapist and best friend combined! All my "secrets," private challenges, heartbreaks, behavior, etc.
Right after BD 8 months ago, when I was so full of anger, rage, fear, self-pity, etc. and when I was still asking questions of my H about OW, I brought this subject up. I told him that, even more upsetting to me than the physical infidelity, was the emotional infidelity. I was beginning to realize that he was not only f****** this woman but was talking to her--about me! This person I'd never even met, who I wouldn't know if I passed in the street, probably knew my life's story, warts and all. It made me physically sick.
So I asked my husband outright. I said, "You've told her all about me haven't you. All the reasons you're angry at me, the arguments, the problems, everything about my life, etc., etc. haven't' you!" He was silent a few moments, hung his head and said, "I had to talk to someone."
It was a low point, to say the least.
TMHP
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believe me they are not happy. we know them better than anyone. think thats why hubby is so monster at the minute as he knows ive moved on. he even admitted that to me at the beginning of the year. he said he delibrately knocked me down because he did not want me to move on. well i have. i have my off days but i love the life i got. TrustingMYHP....... i think ow are jelous of what what we had with our partners. we are a threat to them. apparently i really *iss her of by doing nothing because i dont bite. if i can *iss her of by doing nothing then i aim to please :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D hope you all have a great day. stay strong everyone ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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LG: "strong women": YES that's what my H said. he thought OW was strong, didn't need a man, and how flattered he was that's she'd consider taking care of him. meanwhile, she needed "saving" from a loveless marriage. he was impressed with all the money she had and how she made a name for herself. Toward the end of their sick and demented relationship, he was stunned she needed "taking care of" and that she was so insecure all along. She also felt entitled to my H. I, on the other hand, didn't deserve him.
the OW friend I have feels that way too. she feels that the wife of her married H doesn't deserve him either.
The OW my H was involved with spoke with authority about ME, like she knew all about me. When my H would come over, i was careful to say, "I don't know her, I won't make judgments about her, she must be nice if you like her (UGH,try saying that without puking), but most women want to be taking care of dear. She'll want something eventually." At first he thought i was nuts (he made me feel that way for a while), but little by little she showed her true colors. First she chipped away at me but she made the mistake of making fun of our D's looks (and my D is very cute too, so OW must be an idiot), and then she made a disparaging remark to my H's nephew (another idiotic mistake) provoking a very colorful, and distasteful remark from the nephew. I on the other hand never called my H names or OW names. He was in comparison mode, so it seeped into his mushy brain somehow. OW ALSO refused to allow him to come into the house. "why, I'd say. She loves you and trusts you right? what's the problem?" H would say, "she knows you want me back, and you'll try anything." "Oh, so she thinks that you are susceptible to my feminine wiles, huh? Doesn't she think you KNOW better. Hmmm, what MUST she think of you?"
When he was with me, he would end up coming into the house. She flipped but then "allowed it" but dug an dug at him. At one point I said, "what's wrong? you said you were happy". He said, "you think I'm happy. Everyone says I must be happy to have two women in my life. Well, I'M NOT HAPPY! OK! I'M NOT." So I pulled a doctor phil on him, "not working for ya huh?"
The alienator articles on this site were on point for her psychological standpoint, and I found them useful actually. Even though many on this forum and even my therapist said she was incidental to his MLC/breakdown, and not worthy of any thought, I found that understanding her gave me more power. I knew she'd answer one way, I'd do the opposite. She started to cause anxiety, I provided calm.
HB's H had said, "why didn't you try to stop me?" Interesting, because my H said, "If you knew about her (i didn't until after BD, actually), why didn't you do something about it? I think I wanted you to know so you could stop me. Why didn't my family try to help me?" I said that we did in our own may, but that he was a runaway train, a human wrecking ball that seemed unstoppable. H said he felt like he was watching himself. He also is baffled as to why he even considered OW. She's not his "type". He said, "i was obviously mentally ill."
Ya think?
angelgirl
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Thanks Angelgirl, Love that post. I love hearing about how Affair Down is for real. Apparently I have trouble seeing the forest bc I am in it. :o
Even though my H met OW at a convenience store and moved in with after 3 weeks abandoning me and the Ds. She has tiny apt with no ac no tv no cable no car no good job Just my H...My confused panicked lost H. That seems to be the best part of her resume. LOL.. Luckily my H doesn't bad mouth me. He just feels sad that I pushed him away :o :o bc he loves ME!
Oh well. He'll learn. Thanks again.
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Angel,
sounds like your H was with my H's OW...are you from upstate NY?? LOL!! I hold no value to the OW either...I have said that
its nice knowing that by ME doing nothing that it upsets her so much....I will continue to be the invisible thorn in her side ;)
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Don't worry about what they tell the OW..because I believe it is mostly lies. They tell the OW that you never had sex with them anymore, that it is a loveless marriage, that they sleep in a separate room. My H did tell his OW some stuff and it came back to haunt him. He had told her how much I make and what I do for a living. In the end she was arguing that he was staying with me because my pathetic self couldn't support myself (lies) and that she made more money than me therefore she was the better option. She called me a low life and that he should not be paying for anything having to do with me. He was not impressed and apologized for ever telling her anything. He began to see her as pathetic, grasping at straws when he was breaking it off.
Time is almost always on the LBS side. My H's Ow also was described by H as strong, independent, etc. In the end she was needy, clingy, desperate, did all the pursuing and dug her own grave.
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I know my H's OW will post anything and everything on FB to prove their love...whatever!
She is 10 years younger than my H and has alot of growing up to do.
She has become so less important in my life than at the beginning after BD.
So just to confirm...time is ALWAYS on our side. What if H complies with all her requests and demands. That makes them happy and then what?
CFH
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I LOVE hearing all of this. Even a Newbie (7.5 months post BD) can be happy... :) :)
Still loved when he told me "I am with a REAL FRIEND NOW!" :o :o
LOL LOL A complete stranger. What a Skank Ho. I am glad I never mention her or give her any power. I am glad H doesn't request that the Ds sleep over or go on day trips with her. NOTHING!!!! That alone must make her :o :o :o :o She must ask WHY? What would he say to explain why she saw the Ds only once in March? HMMMMMM!
Maybe he said "Mamma Bear really didn't do anything wrong and I need to respect her." or" I don't think this is gonna last so why cause so much trouble." Whatever. I just hope he doesn't start up again with that request. Sickening. ::)
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OMG yes my H did that...wanted to bring the kids into that life. But for so long he didn't and never asked. Guess the OW's put the pressure on and then he did ask and I couldn't deny him his kids. But than after 1 or 2 visits the requests stopped again.
I don't look forward to my kids going there but the OW is nothing and if she was so important to him. He would want her involved in all aspects of his life.
Way to go mama...wish I could say I was where you are at when I was only 7.5 months after BD. I am over 2 yrs and still have
set backs.
It is sickening but we are strong and you would think that the OW's would be asking why they are more involved in H's lives if he TRULY LOVES THEM (LOL!!!!!!!!)
CFH
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mamma bear and crazyforhim, how old are your kids. mine are aged 4 - 14 and see there dad regularly. even stay over there house at weekends. my kids see no wrong and actually like ow (YUCK LOL).... i dont badmouth her to the kids. hubby gets very angry with our children but spoils ow kids loads. it killed me inside at first but i have got used to it now. ow guard will come down one day and my kids will see for themselves what shes like. i know my kids look out for one another when at there dads. my kids are good kids on the whole but they argue with ow kids. i did not want them to stay with hubby at first but i could not let the kids not see there dad.
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GOSh, how glad am I that There are no kids involved in my situation. Very! OP does have a child though so I have if that has any affect my ex. I'm sure it does, to some extent because we never had children and he did want to have one ( we were trying but it never happened ).
I do recall making one phone call to the OP to get the facts and she pretty much told me to leave him alone and that he's a person of the world now and he and I are on totally different levels. She also said that he only ever said good things about me.
That was a little over two years ago and I have no idea if OP is still in the picture. I have no way of knowing and I really prefer not to seek out info on them unless he reaches out to me in some way. My feeling is though that they are still a *couple* and that they are happy. I can feel it.
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Nesquick, My ds are 9 and 11. They went ice skating with her and him once. It was 6 weeks after BD and he had been underground the whole time. I was a mess. After they left I got on the computer(crying) and started typing furiously looking for advice. God lead me to Hero's Spouse :) Everyone came on and welcomed me and said "NO" Don't let them around OW....Since my H kept asking after that I finally said "If I died on feb 14th (instead of BD) would you have another woman in OUR BED that fast?" That shut him up.
He didn't ask again until end of May. Wanted to go to a B&B with her and my kids. When he asked he answered himself "I'm guessing the answer is NO?" Good guess, Einstein. So so lucky. I'll keep praying for that. Sometimes I think it's bc I make a lot of $$ and always supported him. He really can't hold down a job on vicodin. He's a bad employee. LOL Always late etc etc He's out of his mind. :o :o For that reason I don't think he wants to be on my bad side. He'd rather have me all weepy. He knows he's confused. Too bad for him at 7.5 months I am not weeping anymore. Big strong beautiful Mamma and I am really booking some time over here at work. :) Praying for good things for you Nesquick. You've got your hands full over there. Hugs. :)
LG told me to ask him for a court order if he starts demanding to take them around her. I hope it never comes to that. :o
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nesquick my kids are 10 and 3...but I hear you about it killing you when the kids first started going there. But he is not consistent in taking them so they really don't go there all that much.
The kids like OW so yes, that makes me sick and I don't really ask them about her and they don't talk about her
But true, can't deny him his kids and he is good to them .
The OW has a child but I have heard my H say she gives him no respect....
I have heard stories on here as well that I shouldn't be allowing the kids over there...but how can you deny them.
He pushed and pushed until I finally gave in and then my D asked why they don't go to daddy's. Well that made me feel worse.
But I now am ok with them going over there and they do have fun with their dad so that's a good thing.
He doesn't let OW get involved with everything they do so I'm ok with that too! They aren't as happy as they try and prove to be...lol lol
CFH
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mamma bear. thank you for the hugs and prayer ;D i am a busy mum lol. thought i was close to my kids before BD but how wrong was i. i would not be without my kids. lots of love and laughter in our home. few tears sometimes as the eldest d is seeing her dad change all the time but i always reassure her. ive told you before but i will say again mamma bear. you sound so strong and i so love your humour. you are one funny lady. some of your comments make me lol. hugs back to you too. take care and keep laughing ;D ;D ;D ;D
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hi crazyfor him. thank you for the reply. my eldest two sense not too talk about ow. i dont mind if they do. ive got used to it now. my youngest two chat about ow quite a bit but they are too little to understand. although i do think my d 6 throws some truth darts in there. god i love my kids lol. i know at the end of the day i am there mum and always will be ;D i also look forward to the day when my kids dont see ow so often but hey this is mlc. anything can happen. as long as the kids are safe and happy, thats all i can ask for. like you say our hubbies are the kids dads and we cant break that bond. but also some of the threads i have seen if our kids are not safe to go then we have to protect them. got to agree ow and hubby are far from happy ;D
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Thanks Nesquick...so nice to have the support- god what would I do without everyone on here.
I here ya about being so much closer to my kids then I ever thought I was before.
I look forward to the day the OW is GONE! lol
Thanks and keep posting...love to read all the posts and how strong everyone is.
How many kids do you have?
:) :) :) CFH
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hi crazyforhim. ive got to agree this website is amazing. such great support. i think us lbs have to be strong to pull the kids through. we deal with our pain but only after we have sorted our kids out. that too me is so important. i refuse to be nasty to hubby. my own parents divorced 30 odd years ago and cant bare to be in the same room now. very sad. although it was not an mlc break up. hey hunny, ive realised ow is just a symtom of there mlc. look in there eyes and behaviour. i was soooo upset at first as hubby went back to his first love through facebook. she dumped him years ago. i just thought it might now last forever but his body language does not tell me that. we need lots of patience and believe im tested so much but i refuse to bite. i have four beautiful kids. one boy and 3 girls aged 4 - 14. hubby has just took s of me for being an unfit mum. i know im not. hubby has just manipulated s. i know in my heart my s will come back to me one day. its a heartbreaker but s says he wants to be with his dad. s is 12. ow bought s all the top stuff and it was deduted out of my maintenance. i pray for the day my s wakes up and comes back to me. remain strong and come here if you need advice cfh...... hugs to you :) :) :)
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nesquick
sending you strength and lots of hugs
stay strong
CFH
:) :) :) :) :)
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Any Canadians here????
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While I do not like the use of the psychopath, I found this interesting. Generally, it seems to describe OW's....
Even though I care to know as little as possible about my H's A, what I do know fits the alienator's approach into this:
Basic manipulative strategy of a psychopath
According to Hare and Babiak,[4] psychopaths are always on the lookout for individuals to scam or swindle. The psychopathic approach includes three phases:
1. Assessment phase
Some psychopaths are opportunistic, aggressive predators who will take advantage of almost anyone they meet, while others are more patient, waiting for the perfect, innocent victim to cross their path. In each case, the psychopath is constantly sizing up the potential usefulness of an individual as a source of money, power, sex, or influence. Some psychopaths enjoy a challenge while others prey on people who are vulnerable. During the assessment phase, the psychopath is able to determine a potential victim’s weak points and will use those weak points to seduce.
2. Manipulation phase
Once the psychopath has identified a victim, the manipulation phase begins. During the manipulation phase, a psychopath may create a persona or mask, specifically designed to ‘work’ for his or her target. A psychopath will lie to gain the trust of their victim. Psychopaths' lack of empathy and guilt allows them to lie with impunity; they do not see the value of telling the truth unless it will help get them what they want.
As interaction with the victim proceeds, the psychopath carefully assesses the victim's persona. The victim's persona gives the psychopath a picture of the traits and characteristics valued in the victim. The victim's persona may also reveal, to an astute observer, insecurities or weaknesses the victim wishes to minimize or hide from view. As an ardent student of human behavior, the psychopath will then gently test the inner strengths and needs that are part of the victim's private self and eventually build a personal relationship with the victim.
The persona of the psychopath - the “personality” the victim is bonding with - does not really exist. It is built on lies, carefully woven together to entrap the victim. It is a mask, one of many, custom-made by the psychopath to fit the victim's particular psychological needs and expectations. The victimization is predatory in nature; it often leads to severe financial, physical or emotional harm for the individual. Healthy, real relationships are built on mutual respect and trust; they are based on sharing honest thoughts and feelings. The victim's mistaken belief that the psychopathic bond has any of these characteristics is the reason it is so successful.
3. Abandonment phase
The abandonment phase begins when the psychopath decides that his or her victim is no longer useful. The psychopath abandons his or her victim and moves on to someone else. In the case of romantic relationships, a psychopath will usually seal a relationship with their next target before abandoning his or her current victim. Sometimes, the psychopath has three individuals on whom he or she is running game: the one who has been recently abandoned, who is being toyed with and kept in the picture in case the other two do not work out; the one who is currently being played and is about to be abandoned; and the third, who is being groomed by the psychopath, in anticipation of abandoning the current "mark".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_manipulation
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This is scary, but it describes my wife's 'friend' to a tee.
Unfortunately, if you try to explain any of this to anyone else, they thing you are nuts.
Maybe we are, for hanging around, sorry standing.
Basically we are waiting until these people have finished ?
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freddy...here is a better blog.....
http://withoutempathy.blogspot.com/
Are we waiting? IDK.... it is not like I am at a bus stop waiting for a bus with nothing to do. :P
I am enjoying the gift of time 8)
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OMG! LifeGoesOn I was going to say I don't feel like I am waiting for a bus!!!! LOL ! That's a sign. Or I'm waiting for a bus that broke down so I went ahead and hitched a ride with some other folks(you guys) and I'm humming right along 'as if' :)
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Wow...withoutempathy has these people pegged.
It is very hard to stop them I think, because they are intelligent, charming and unscrupulous.
I suppose you somehow need to remove their target, which in my case I believe is getting half the family home value into my wife's hands and then conning her out of it.
Nice work if you can get it. Better than a real job.
They leave broken families and people in their wake. Funny how they have no friends, just empty facebook pages and Twitter where they talk to themselves. fascinating.
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Last night on Criminal Minds there was a story about an Ex Navy Seal who hit his head in a car accident and it did something to his brain. He thought the people he loved "his family" were imposters so he was killing them. He thought their bodies had been taken over by aliens. ??? Why does that sound familiar?
It was so weird for me to watch this unfold. Even 'The Team' was empathetic to the perp bc "it wasn't his fault" At one point his estranged W could only talk to him on the phone bc if it was just her voice it was OK. If he saw them he thought they took his real wife and family and had to kill them.
The brain chemistry involved in of all of this is baffling. I can't believe his depression ran deep enough for him to convince himself that his family doesn't matter. Only OW matters. For now :)
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I thought it was interesting where the author says the psycho actually looks for people with integrity and morals just to see if they can "take them down". The manipulation is sooo subtle. The emotional blackmail is obvious to everyone except the victim, b/c they are so convinced by the psycho that the psycho is a good person 'underneath' and aside from their actions. They only behave this way b/c of 'love and friendship'. They only do something immoral and without integrity b/c in the end it is in everyone's best interests.
Now get really afraid..... psychopathic killers tend to pair up with depressives ("Columbine"). Fortunately, most are not killers. Most are searching for what they do not have...empathy and love. They think they can find this by taking it from another, whether it is through money, power, control. H's OW sees all three in my H. And she is ruthless while seeming the poor misunderstood damsel. She has a school psychology PhD :o and gets a lot of her emotional guidance from movies. She actually shows H movies to demonstrate her feelings and reasons for her behavior ::) It is sad that H buys it.
It is soo frustrating that he doesn't see what everyone does. H says their friendship is the most important aspect of their A. (OOOPs, "It is not an Affair!") Well, dear H, What kind of friend, exposes your A to your wife while your father is dying and you (and she) are at your most vulnerable? You, yourself, said you were not ready to leave me, but did she care? No, she got a hotel room for you to retreat to when she exposed it. She left her H the day after I threw you out and it was a coincidence ::) Really? Are you kidding me? Do you really believe this is a Lifetime channel movie?
Enough of my rant. She saw her target and primed him for a long time. But, b/c this is not a movie, she did not count on much less understand the deep bond under all the life-crap of our M. I am all she has to keep the drama going. The conflict will eventually wear on H..... He left me b/c it caused her (and thus him) too much pain. ? She will never get enough of him to feel secure with him (b/c he loves me!) How far will he allow her to push him?
So, in a way, I am waiting for a bus....the karma bus. ;D
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LGO Yeah my H told me two weeks post BD when I tracked him down in an alley outside his job " Listen, Mamma Bear, we cried buckets over this. I am done crying." Oh really ? You and Skank ow crying over what you did to me.
If he ever comes to reconcile and she bothers me at all (I HOPE SHE STAYS AWAY) I will tell her "Listen Bowser, My H and I have cried buckets over this. He is done crying." :)
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LMFAO Mamma!! See?? Thats what I mean by making my day with humor!!! :D
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Synn, Glad to help....... That's why this makes me so crazy. I never did anything to bug my H except ask if he could " get off the couch and HELP!!!!!"
He told me once "You liked me when we first met and I was hooked on vicodin." :o
Why don't you like me now? You shouldn't try and change me...find someone else :o
That drug addiction is really a BEAR. Put MLC on top of that and we are "Off to the Races."
Also he forgot that the reason I was drawn to him was I wanted him to GET OFF THE OPIATES!!!!
He seemed too smart and handsome to throw his life away over an addiction with so much help out there. ::)
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LGO, thanks for posting that info - is pretty disturbing though!!
My H's OW also preyed on him for a long time and conveniently had the accommodation all sorted for him to run to. All organised so that he didn't have to do any thinking ........
I'll never forget him coming back from the first 'business' trip with her. He announced that she'd said 'how does your W handle you travelling with other women?' He said that he is always clear with his boundaries, and they never get crossed!
I remember at the time feeling a little uneasy.
At BD, he said that right from that first trip they had 'so much in common!'
Hearing of her early interests - was like reading an infatuated teenagers speel - I just love EVERYTHING that my boyfriend loves!!!'
Very interesting to read that that is all part of the lure ......... creepy
Glad I'm not a sociopath - imagine the hell of being them ....... karma bus on its way ........ doesn't anyone ever hope that one day it gets upgraded to a larger engine, so it can go faster!!!! ???
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Homing in on a target like a heat seeking missile, adjusting trajectory to suit the characteristics of the target. So much research, adjustment, destruction, devastation.
All in the name of 'Love'.
What chameleons, charlatan's . Devious treacherous, fraudsters. Intelligent, charismatic, charming, lying, immoral and sad. Attention seeking, egotistical but flawed individuals.
Who gives birth, adjusts the characters of these people within our society. We are all so vulnerable when you look at the statistics, these people are everywhere.
Some interactions end in crime, violence, death, not only the break up of a marriage.
Are we lucky to be aware? Can we do anything? Our families are damaged and we see, here on this forum, people whose lives, maybe 30 years of building a family are taken away by these people.
This is not the MLC I am talking about, this is the Alienator.
The Alienator is the 'Pendulum' a person who seeks to take your power from you, so carefully described in Reality Transurfing ..The Space of Variations by Vadim Zeland . These are people you don't want to interact with as you give up your power to them. They seek only to take your power. In this book he explains how to deal with them.
If you don't give 110% to your relationship, these characters are simply waiting for you to slip.
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Wow.....Freddygone...what a synopsis of clear thinking on OW/OM...
You have put into words what has been spinning around in my mind for a year now...feelings of anger, frustration, sadness, betrayal, incredulity, bewilderment and sorrow...... I only wish I could send your post through to my H and that he would read it and truly realise what a dreadful person he has entangled himself with....a true "black widow" and "bunny boiler"....who WILL let him down, betray HIM and continue to weave a web of deceit and lies around him, all in the name of "love"...I only hope eventually my H and all the lost H's and W's will realise what he/she has lost.....the people who really loved them :-[
Thank you.....
Love and hugs
Foxy xxxx
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Thanks FB,
this too has been swirling in my mind too.
But the bitterness and poison eventually you can see in their faces. It eats them up inside, both the Alienator and the MLC.
They must be in torment, because it certainly knocks the hell out of me, and my girls.
At some point, when will that be? We may have to slowly, walk, away.
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If you don't give 110% to your relationship, these characters are simply waiting for you to slip.
In this sentence you are doing yourself an injustice. You can give 200% to your marriage but it will make no difference. Mid-Life depression + Alienator = crisis.
Even if you give 200% to your marriage a depressed Mid-Lifer will pull away from you because your "goodness" makes them feel inferior, unworthy and bad. They need to get away from you to stop feeling bad. That is the confused, back to front world of MLC.
honour
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Hi Honor,
Maybe you are right, but I don't feel so good and the stress on the family puts a strain on my relationship with my daughters. There is no right way to deal with anything and at each turn I find my action or inaction criticised. Going Dark is seen as a negative. I had to be hard with my girls and tell them that there is a little role reversal needed here. The grown daughters need to understand that the parents may be behaving like children and that we don't have all the answers. We can't fix everything like we did when they were small.
It is very hard for them too, very hard and they hate the Alienator, but there has been attempts to force feed them. But as adults, they can see a psychopath or sociopath and instinctively pull away.
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A strong LBS is the antidote to a predator.... they cannot stand in the light... as long as you are LIGHT, they cannot "win". They can do a lot of damage.... but if you are unwavering, eventually they will fall away. It's called "having heart"... and it's what makes a champion sometimes from the 90 pound weakling... or the runt of the litter. HEART.
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Interesting LettingGo,
so what you are saying is that Going Dark allow the predator space to operate but if you reappear it rather upsets their plans.
I do find that when I do return home on occasion's when things need to be done, my wife disappears from the house before I arrive, but I have not seen this predator for 2 and a half years.
My tactic has been to refuse to speak with him or acknowledge him (which he finds upsetting) as Narcissists like to feel important and acknowledged. I explained a long time ago that he was a symptom of the problem, but was not so much the problem. Now however he prolongs the current limbo. Something has to change.
But maybe you are right. Maybe I should step into the space again and have a presence.
Certainly I am not afraid of him and I think he knows that.
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For Freddy:
http://www.lovefraud.com/blog/2007/09/07/ask-dr-leedom-how-can-i-get-my-away-from-the-psychopathic-con-artist%E2%80%9D/
Much of the advice follows the advise here....
Also, I wonder if the contact level of the MLCer correlates with the alienator's placement on a spectrum of the psychopath/sociopath/personality disorders. hmmmm
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Thank you LifeGoesOn,
That article is really interesting and clearly describes typically what I am up against although the isolation started way back 2 years ago and only fullyacheived about 2 months ago after being apart (my wife and I) for a little over a year and a half, but we were still communicating amicably. However it seems that this OM and indeed my wife's solicitor do not like that situation of amicability. So I communicate only when necessary via email and text, explaining nice things I have done, car repairs , paid bills, insurance etc as it is the Family home, but I do not receive a response. However in a recent email sent to my daughters (which I was copied in) regarding Christmas arrangements, the tone of my wife has seriously shifted (in the last few weeks) to a softer, more regretful tone that I have not seen in the past 4 years. She recognises that WE have made many mistakes and that this situation will not last forever.
Interesting shift, but I don't think I should respond directly or make any comment.
Our next meeting will be as a family at my eldest daughters graduation in mid November and I think I need to be non judgemental and calm. The predator hates these family get togethers and in the past has ALWAYS interupted them with either a text or phone call.
It is almost a year since the last get together, so he must be getting quite desperate now, don't you think? One thing about LBS is that we have patience.
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Hi LG and Freddy,
I know it was for Freddy, but thanks for the link, LG. Freddy, I think my husband, his OW2 and husband lawyer that is a friend of OW2, pretty much resembles you wife, her OM and her solicitor.
Maybe LG is right and the type of personality/disorder of the alienator makes a difference. During OW1, and in the time when he was alone, between OW1 and OW2, even if I saw a lot of mosters, even if husband keep doing lots of mean things and not helping me at all, we would still talk, there were never any fault divorce processes against me.
Since OW2, immediate divorce papers that were unacetable, followed by fault divorce processes. Husband very, very afraid of talking to me, always saying, maybe he should let the lawyers talk. Unlike during OW1, he never approached me for a chat, nothing. He vanished, I went NC.
When I used to go dark during OW1 he would always connect me. Now, since OW2, and I know he is a vanisher, it is like someone is controlling him, not letting him come near, taking advantage of is confusion, anger, crisis. Not only keeping him away from me but also from our home town and his mother.
I know that both times, before the two fault divorce processes he filled against me OW2 had an active part on it. I also know that OW2 never leaves my husband go anywhere on his on, and if he does so he must return to their home right away, he cannot stay overnight anywhere (not even on his mum on sister’s house) on his own.
In the link LG posted it said to patiently wait for the honeymoon phase to be over and that the person must realise for itself the nature of the alienator. Well, their honeymoon phase must be a very long one. It is been over 3 years and, even from a distance, I notice he is more and more overpowered by her. Does not seems to see anything wrong with her. But, how could he, I’m the enemy, right?...
Like Freddy is not afraid of his wife OM I’m not afraid of her. I’ve never talked to husband about her, except to ask if she knew he was married. That was all. Unlike OW1, to me OW2 does not exist.
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As per LG's request....I am going to share 2 very long texts that I received from my H's OW back in May...
Maybe this will help to see where these people live in their heads...
1st text: Synicca, I think you need to stop trying to predict our future and start worrying about your own. I mean come on H doesn't love you nor want you it is time for you to stop with all your bullsh*t and constant crying on his shoulder. really all you do is make him feel sorry for you not make him want to come back to you. the majority of our fights have been because of you and all the bullsh*t...and the lies that have been told. Theonly reason he turns to you is because you are his safety net and that's it....he loves me and if you would lay the F off of him and stop acting like you two are still happily married we would have no problems...so with this said, I suggest you lay off and move on. by you doing all that you have been doing is what causes us to fight..which is what is causing his pain....gee maybe you would read that on the internet with all the research you do.
My response was...."believe what you want OW, I will not change anything I do for you"
2nd text: no, but I expect a certain amount of respect for him and I from you...I may be the other woman, BUT I didn't cause him to stray that was between you and him for whatever reason..and yes your inability to let him go has alot to do with it CAUSE YOU cause him grief cause you are hurting..and wont let go with all your emails about your thoughts and feelings...and it should be about D and that is it. I understand you need to talk every now and then but it seems to be all the time....maybe I am wrong..but this is how I see it.
( I didn't respond )
But the thing is....I hadn't been texting or calling H at all....I had sent him emails from right after BD...and a few things on MLC and andropause...lol
I am sure at the time...he told her many lies...( continues to do so) blamed it all on me and that is fine....but I crack up every time I read this....There was more convo later that day....but it was deleted by accident..ugh!
Mind you....There was alot of mis-spelled words in her text...but in order for you all to understand, I corrected it....:D
She is 38 Oh and her signature on her cell is " H's Girl <3 "
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Synicca ~ Her text are funny. Thing is, our H's lie to OW and tell them how bad we are, how awful we treated them. These OW have no clue what is really going on. I have never had any contact with my H's OW. She and her family blocked me on FB. That shows me she is threatened by me or afraid of me. She knows I am a lot better person than she is, and I am. She is the total opposite of me. There is no comparison what so ever between the two of us. I'm still shocked my H fell for such a low life piece of trailer trash that lost custody of her son.
But I know it's MLC and he is her Knight and Shining Armour. It does make me laugh.
NB
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Agree with NB, spouses tell the alienator whatever suits them. They do not know us nor how our lives together were like.
But, Syn, you bother reply an email from OW?... :o It would never cross my mind receive an email, text or phone call from OW, let alone answer...
OW is right in one thing, she did not cause him to stray. No OW/OM cause our spouses to stray and the alienator are not the reason why they left. They stayed because they have problems.
Funny to see she knows she is the OW.
Still, like I always tell everyone, my issues with Mr Jones are between I and him. Not betwenn I, him and OW. And OW is not my problem.
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Freddy, you don't have to "DO" anything.... a STRONG LBS is full of light and forgiveness... living their lives IN THE LIGHT.... the affair is all lies and deceit.... You are not lying, or cheating.... you are not ANGRY with the world... you are LIVING LIFE the best you can, with some disheartening circumstances... like most people do....
The MLCer WISHES and LONGS for whatever you are having.... the affair partner is THREATENED because they can only offer the MLCer a lot of "You poor baby.... no one understands you but me... let's be miserable and angry together!!".... eventually, the MLCer NOTICES that you are "HAPPY" in spite of your circumstances.... the very thing they left you to find!! How can that be??? Did they make a mistake???? 8)
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The MLCer WISHES and LONGS for whatever you are having.... the affair partner is THREATENED because they can only offer the MLCer a lot of "You poor baby.... no one understands you but me... let's be miserable and angry together!!".... eventually, the MLCer NOTICES that you are "HAPPY" in spite of your circumstances.... the very thing they left you to find!! How can that be??? Did they make a mistake???? 8)
Do you really think so, LG? Is it not more, let's have fun together and be happy? Even if they are not...And how can they notice a thing when they are vanishers?...Well, I know they notice. There are always ways of finding what you want to find.
Of course they did a mistake! 8) They just take ages to find out! ;D ;D ;D ;D
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The OW in my situation wrote to me that i "should summon all my strength to deal with a painful situation." In other words, "you will need strength to get over the fact that your h is with me and that's it." EGO
She did for sure say "you poor baby, you aren't understood at home. I hate this job too. Let's leave our free-loading spouses and be together. Your W is sweet, but backwards and not sophisticated like us. You have nothing in common with her. She'll find someone in church. You and I will travel. I don't get as overly involved with the kids like your W does." OW found the attorney, and said that an affair was not fair to her own H, and that they should get divorces at the same time. She was sure her H would give her no trouble in divorce (actually he was happy to give the divorce it turns out, but sued her for every dime), and she was going to move my H in her house with at D15 within 4 months of a divorce. :o EGO
she manipulates and likes men she can control, but then doesn't respect them when they don't stand up to her. She later said my H could not set foot in my house when he visited. She called him "weak" and feared I'd manipulate him. a picture of him with his arm around me on FB at my D13 birthday party made her lose her temper and throw things at him at the office. The she broke down and started crying and blamed it on PMS. She kept crying "you still love her??? no you don't!!! You just feel bad for her. You feel guilty, that's not love. You'll be sad again..." Then. later, "You must feel good knowing she wants you, my H was happy to go..." (awe poor thing. ie, "commiserate with me").
Knowing her ego and her way of thinking did help me deal with my H. Knowing what she offered and my way of poking holes in it worked as I hoped. I chipped at her ego. I acted in ways that were opposite of her predictions. She didn't understand why I would file for divorce but still stand for the marriage. She didn't understand why I didn't kick him out and nail him to the wall. She didn't understand why I didn't blast her. She didn't understand why I let him in the house like nothing happened. She started to think i was pretty (she thought I was ugly) now that I was FB. I wasn't at all what she thought. My H seemed concerned that he thought men were circling around me. My Standing yet Detached attitude confounded her. She said I just wanted the security of his money. But i said that if should we get divorced "i wasn't worried," and i smiled as if I wasn't concerned with that at all. She met my H's cousin and insulted me to them, prompting an ugly curse-word from her son. Then OW made a terrible mistake. She made fun of our D13's looks. She thought this was an insult directed at me, but this bothered H alot. She didn't know me. She didn't know our family. So how can she offer him all the things she offered? Maybe she everything she said was unreliable.... H started to break away.
fast forward to when he dumped her. He said, among other things, "i have to got back to my family." She said, "you planned this the whole time, didn't you?" She threw his stuff out of the car and called him "too weak" and that he and I were crazy and "deserve each other."
my H joined us on Vacation (he wasn't out of the tunnel, but he was dedicated to being back). Then, after we all returned, and he went back to work, where OW was, and the other coworkers were clearly eyeballing him and walking on eggshells. H didn't call OW.
OW sent an email after three days and said, "you obviously aren't going to talk to me, so that's your answer. You have no soul and you used me. You will use other women and well and you will never be happy. You and your W are fools and you are setting a poor example for your D's."
She said more, but my H won't tell me that. (OOOO i wish i could see that email)
He tried to answer "i'm sorry...i was going through something...maybe one day we can be friends again..." (Oh c'om. Really???" She and I agree on this one: NO WAY!)
You know what's coming....
OW writes back that he is a bullsh**ter and is never to contact her again and then more stuff my H won't tell me. (I told him to take whatever she threw. Let's face it. he deserves it)
OW said to a co-worker she cried her eyes out and her family was right about him. They warned her he was a man in MLC and would eventually go back to his wife and she's lucky it happened now. But all she kept saying is that my H left her "holding the bag."
Did H assure her he'd be there in their Adventure in leaving their spouses? She is very controlling type (described by others this way), so did she move him in that direction? H says he tried to tell her, "don't get a divorce and count on me being there. I'm not sure I want this." I said to H, "did you really say that, or did you think it and say something like, 'I'm not sure I like being a vegetarian' or some other disconnected phrase like you spoke to me before BD?" Let's just say, direct, honest clarity is not his way of speaking. H admits his memory is distorted, missing and altogether unreliable during that time. He does feel guilty at having hurt everyone.
H is responsible for his actions. He strayed, he was a big baby who, boo hoo was bored, unhappy, didn't like the stress, hated getting old and wanted the same attention our teenage D's get. He owed a duty to us, not her. So the buck ends there. But OW's personality played a role too. Knowing her personality gave me a tool, a clue.
This still intrigues me.
angelgirl
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Love it Angelgirl, How long was he gone? My BD was feb also. Only 8 months into this. I can't figure out how they compartmentalize everything.
I , like you, was devastated at first. Could hardly function. H was sooo good to me. I always came first. Then all of a sudden OW Bowser is in and me and the Ds are thrown under the bus. OK I get it MLC. She is a picture perfect Affair Down. One day when we were walking down the stairs I mentioned something he took that I wanted back..so nonchalantly he says "Oh well these things are bound to happen."
I knew then something was seriously wrong. He was acting like "whatever". If it weren't for my Ds 9 and 11 meeting her ONCE 6 weeks after BD (when he popped out after having been GONE for 6 weeks totally) I wouldn't know anything. I have not heard one good thing about her. Opposite of me.
I guess she was convenient and adoring of him. So painful when I let my mind wander to THEM being all cozy..Now I trust the MLC process.
People keep saying there are no success stories but I dont find that to be true. If there are not a lot of success stories i credit that to LBS moving on from this insanity. Also the board being so young.
Trusting God to help H see and appreciate the beautiful and kind forgiving family that he RAN from. Replay sucks. Good Luck to you angelgirl as you move forward with all the work involved in rebuilding.
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People keep saying there are no success stories but I dont find that to be true. If there are not a lot of success stories i credit that to LBS moving on from this insanity. Also the board being so young.
There are success stories. Just in a very shorter number than the broken marriages. Yep, LBS do move on and the board is young.
You're on this for 8 months, I'm starting into year 6 and can not see a single sign of Husband's MLC to be ending. The passage of the years change our way of seing the MLC. Also, we start to move faster than they do. The timmings, if the crisis take too long, will not match.
This said, I have no idea why we are not divorced yet. Husband keep fillling for fault divorce, I don't fight it. The process just drags or get closed and we still married... even if we do not have seen each other for over 3 years, there is no marital home, no marrjage, nothing...Odd, very, very odd...
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AnneJ, That's my Ds name..ooops may have given myself away..Well everyone can know all about my life when this is over and I write a book. ;D and the movie! LOL! What should I call it...Trusting in the shell of your former spouse.
If it's a hit we can call the second one Trusting in the shell of your former spouseII
Anne My H was a stay at home dad and I have a very good job. He's been in replay for longer then BD. He has lived a carefree responsibility free life for several years. Almost 5. If he wants to live in an altered state I guess I have no choice with him. Glad he went to UGLY Bowser's. he was taking me for granted in his 'alien teenage mentality" Still hurts like glass cutting my soul.
I have keen intuition. I will continue to pray for the best outcome. And I know what that is. Keep on truckin' Mamma! :) OWs are garbage in my book. When H does rebuild his fragments or whatever the hell his demons are doing then HE will be able to see her for what she is. A band aid...alcohol...pills.. Satan at work for sure.
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Hear Hear Mamma!!!!!!!!!!
I think our H's are twin brothers. Only one is not the good twin. ::)
Today, I'm really questioning what there is to hang on to. If he and OW want each other well what chance do I have to compete with a frizzy haired Belly Dancer who cuts hair. S9 says "OW acts like a teenager and so does H. Only she looks older than you mum becuase she has heaps of wrinkles."
I know he's been gone only 6 months but they have been together way longer than that and I know he's been in this MLC tunnel years now. While I thought we were trying to improve our relationship he was 'improving' THEIR relationship behind my back.
Well, I don't trust him any more. Tomorrow OW will have her wish. Property settlement. (Wonder if she'll get a surprise when she realises there isn't any money that H can bring into their realtionship). Then all she needs is for H to file for divorce next year. Bet they can hardly contain themselves at the thought of being free together!!!
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Dear MammaBear:
There are success stories. Success also depends on what LBS is willing to take back in the end, and how long they can wait. My sister's H was in replay and strayed twice. It was a 4-year thing. She found out about stray number 2 and gathered up her things and moved in with me. her H was devastated and tore up the house. She would only move in if he changed and went to therapy. He converted to her religion (his choice) and frankly, I don't recognize him. He is a better person now.
My H is the type that puts woman on pedastals. I was on a pedastal. He liked to be taken care of. He calls me Mama. Yeah, I know....
BD was in Feb, but two years ago, he started to disconnect (i only know this from looking back, because two years ago, I saw nothing). His job changed and OW became a friend. He hated his new boss and he felt put upon. OW felt that way about her division boss and so they began to walk and talk about their troubles. The spring of 2010 the walks became lunches. A friend of ours said he talked about her and he was fascinated. Then our family went to Italy on vacation. He mentally came back to me (not sure why that is, but it is). I noticed from an Agenda he his in his drawer, that he started to have lunches with her in the late summer. I also noted some hotel arrangements beginning the last day of Sept 2010 and throughout Oct thru Dec. H claims he had an argument with our older D about him chewing too loud, and he said at that moment, he quit on us. He considered our marriage dead and anything he did after that was OK with him. We were things now with no feelings, no names, no history. Just things he had to write checks for. In January he was cold. No sex and he'd throw a couple of nasty remarks, like "you eat too much" and "i knew you wouldn't want to go away" and "why can't you at least be a trophy wife???" I responded with, "what's wrong? this seasonal depression is worse this year? What can I do? Can you take your SSRI meds?" He replied that it wasn't me, it was his job making him a huge crank (by now OW had convinced him that his medications were unhealthy and this her lifestyle would be best for him).
BD was Feb of 2011. I found out about OW a few days later and he moved out. He became irratic and accused me of wanting to steal his money (here OW had convinced him of who i really was, in her opinion). So I filed to protect assets (he has stock accounts and a bank account with his bonuses). I said i would prefer to go slow on the divorce, but i needed to protect children. After all one of us needed to be an adult (if i sound calm at this point, not so, I was a wreck).
Once I got that response from OW and I realized she was opposite-Me and he was anti-H, I "detached" or pretended too. He was being pushed by her, controlled by her and her predictions of me proved false. She started to falter on her pedestal. I posted the picture on FB. She was losing it. That's when he started to become anxious, afraid, having panic attacks. My dad wrote him a letter stating that many men go through this (MLC -- but he wouldn't call it that, so that H wouldn't automatically reject it), and that our family would be willing to let bygones by bygones if he stepped up. My family is Italian. That's saying alot.
Much happened in those few weeks and the MLC progress, through the Grace of God (I believe in prayer, the Rosary and I have strong Church connection), H went through it quickly.
So how long? From BD it was only two months, but the whole process must have been three years. Even when he came home his brain was fried. He is better now, but acknowledges that he is like a teenager. I am the cheerleader girlfriend. He's getting lipo and is focused on his looks. He sometimes takes meds and his monitoring his testosterone levels. So is he done? With Replay, maybe, but not yet with MLC.
The author of Runaway Husbands said that men can compartmentalize very well. I saw that with H. He depersonalized, detached, but us in a box and forgot everything. My therapist said, he would never come back: you can't unfry eggs. I said, I'd make omelets. Thank goodness for my sister and this forum/site.
so yes to success stories, but the LBS has to expect that H will emerge out of the tunnel in his own time and won't be exactly the same. They do come out better. Can you wait as long as my sister did? Up to LBS. Maybe divorce and get back together? Don't know.
Alienator is intriguing, but incidental. Now my H is talking about buying a wave-runner. So MLC is still alive and kicking, but luckily he's not looking to OW"s for a cure. At least not for now. And I'm better prepared too. Let's just say I never lost touch with my attorney. ::)
angelgirl
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And I'm better prepared too. Let's just say I never lost touch with my attorney.
Very much the one thing I do not lost touch with, my lawyer! I've though about that, even if husband would be back on time (my time, that is), I would keep my lawyer.
Mamma, yes, OW may be surprised he will not be bringing any money. You can't compete with OW. They are in a teenagers in love relashionship. Everything is fantastic! ::) Not! ;D ;D ;D
Really strange how they manage to remain for years on end in that alternative unreal world...
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On the idea of a returning AFFAIR FREE MLCer still in Replay.... I can imagine it... my husband is open to buying a house again together... FINALLY!! ;D ;D
Pondering if it is his GUILT, his wanting to keep me where he can find me, or his imagining that if we have a house of our own again, he will want to be here.... it will keep him here....
I don't really care. If it serves me personally, and our family personally... then I will USE his guilt, uncertaintly, superstition... whatever to get what I think is best for our family and for me. That's right... I will USE my husband to get what I want and deserve. I have NO PROBLEM tying up all his money in a monthly mortgage... if it causes him to run again from the PRESSURE, the kids and I will have a comfortable family home... and when he's ready to come home for good, it won't be to my parent's rental property which has contributed to his MLC unrest.... it will be to his own home, with his REAL family, his REAL wife that he loves, and his garage, his patio, his grill, his above ground pool, and his MAN CAVE finished basement with room for the combination poker/bumper pool table, LOL!! Spinning Christmas Tree in the corner of the living room.... real honest to goodness Leave it to Beaver-ville... it's a good thing. ;)
If he wants a wave runner sitting in the back yard, then so be it.... as long as OW is gone!
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I'm not yet able to imagine the idea of a returning affair free MCLer still in replay.
Was putting order on my emails and found a very, very long between I and husband, after OW1 was gone March 2008). It is a very good talk.
We do not really talk about OW1. And he says, something he had always said, that she was not the reason why he left. That he felt breathless, that he needed to cut ties, that he wanted nothing more to do with the past. But that, during the months he had spend with OW1, he had talked with a lot of people that had made him see things from another perspective and that it makes no sense to want everything from the past putted away.
He also says that OW1 was just bad timming and not the right way of solving things. That, after all those months, he is a different man, a better man, or so he likes to think.
Not sure what happened to him becoming a better man... I never saw much of that better man. The better man never gave me a pence and, since OW2,has being taking me to court...But maybe, after OW2 and all this mess, he will have learned something and can really be a better man.
He also says he had just followed is heart and will still follow his heart, and fight for a better life and to be happy. That he will only stop fighting for himself if he will phisycal or psychologically become unable to do so.
He talks a lot about feeling without air, soffucated, that the marriage was not doing him any good. He admits that, in the last times, it was also not doing me no good.
I'm really surprised with the talk. I talk about what I feel, he talks about what he has done. And he says he still believes a relshionship can be forever, without an affair, but that both people need to be side by side and look ahead (I thought we did that...).
He says living OW1 had nothing with not had getting his happiness. I tell him I don't want to know why it ended, he does not say.
I'm telling him that, after all that happened it is rare that people still talk to each other (well, that was before everything that is been going on since the gap between OW1 and OW2 and OW2).
He is not monster in that talk. And I must say I really would like to know what had he learned on those months with OW1 and why did he thought he was a better man.
Nowhere he says what he used to say, that he will never be back, nor that he hates me. He does, however, not remember a series of thing he have done while during OW1. He says, I really don't remember, do you wann go down that path? I reply, No, I don't. It was just to show you that even if you would had BD the way you wanted, I would suspect OW1 had not come along after you left.
I must also had I'm very sad for that couple in the talk (I and husband). They seem to still love each other but are not very sure what to do. Or better, she has an idea that it does not make much sense not trying to recover the relashionship, since they manage to still talk nicely after all that has happened.
But, of course, that was March 2008. A lot, and I mean a LOT, has happened since.
One thing is certain, we are both very different people, and if/when husband will be out of MLC he will not find right what he has done.
Problem? He had got OW2. He just follow is heart.. will fight for his happiness .And, of course, he is not on his right mind. Because, if he his, why had he treated me so bad in a phone talk we've had late March (yes, March always looks like the month when things happen...)? Why that insanity of normal, sad, super happy,. crying, monster "marrying you was the worst mistake of my life" and so on?
In the March 2008 talk he does not mention divorce nor that marrying me had been the worst mistake of his life. Only that thing of not having air, wanting a new life, need to cut the ties and that he knows that he have not done things the right way.
So, what do you people think, are we gonna have a repetition of that after OW1 talk? When OW2 si gone? When we will be divorced and MLC over? Years after we've been divorced? Will he be able, if/when the crisis is over, to understand what he went through and what a MLC is?...Opinions wanted! :)
PS: I've also found a talk from one month latter, April 2008, and husband is yelling at me because "for you the divorce is just a commercial transaction. You have not changed at all! I will never, ever, give you any monthy money. If you want 1000 €, fine, I will give them to you. But that's it..."...oh...well... ::)
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AnneJ..... the single most important thing for you to do FOR YOURSELF is to FORGIVE your husband AND his OW1 and OW2. You cannot move forward until you do. He cannot move TOWARDS you until you do. Whether you ever get back together, he has to feel there is hope for forgiveness.
It gets old..... their wanting forgiveness and still acting out... BELIEVE ME!! I KNOW!!! Forgiving OW and then Husband for their transgressions was the single most freeing thing I have done for myself... he is still wondering if I can ever forgive him... 8)
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Annej, I wish I had an answer for you but I'm having similar questions, too. From what I've read in your other posts, you had a happy marriage. I hope one day he'll remember those days fondly and return, bypassing any emails and show up wherever you are. I wish that for all of us.
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LG, husband is forgived and both OW1 and OW2 as well. I have almost forgot OW1 has existed. She had. And given that we are, again, in the middle of another of husband fault divorce process, for legal matters she is a proof. But that's it. One day I would like to know why she come along, and when. But it is just curiosity.
I would put aside the court with happiness but husband does not want to deal. He has to have his way...So, let him have his way... ::)
He knows he is forgived as well as everything that he has done, is doing. I've told him that a while ago.
Yes, it was very, very freeing forgiving husband and both OW.
Suspect he does not care of hope of being forgived...Or, maybe, he is just still acting out. Hard to say. His a vanisher.
But, boy, one month he was one way, next month he was another. One month he did not mention divorce, next month he is shouting: Anne, I've said I wanted a divorce!
That was all a long time ago. Its been more time since those talks and now than since OW1 and those talks. Does it ever ends?... ???
Yes, Star, I've had a very happy marriage. In the March 2008 he was saying me that he had keep only the good moments, that have been many. April 2008 he was screaming that it jad never been good and I just wanted money...oh, dear!...
Return...he will return. A little too late, likely...
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Just when I was feeling broken again...reading all the insight into the OW is fascinating and so true.
Only when I look back a few years- i can see it all unfold and now that the honeymoon phase is over in their relationship then I have more hope and more security knowing it is all "fake". The real thing is right here and one day he will realize that (hope that day is soon).
H and OW are moving and it is going to be right around the corner. Our kids will go to the same school, running into each other at the grocery store....it all made me feel very sick to my stomach but I know it is OW putting on the pressure for a bigger house, bedroom for my kids to visit and stay over (ewww)
So I was having a pity party and just when I thought I was doing so well at detaching and moving on with my life....then you fall a bit backwards.
I need to move forward again...just knowing that their relationship is not what it seems on the outside makes me feel better. I just wish I was a fly on the wall at their house to be totally reassured that the relationship IS falling apart. How crazy is that? lol
I know I will be strong and won't freak out like I am sure OW wants me to!!!
Thanks for all the reassurance- they will break up one day right???????
CFH
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CFH, Totally. If we'd only step back and just pretend for 1 minute that this is happening to a close friend of ours instead of us. ??? We could see clearly that this is NOT NORMAL behavior. The clingy boomerang also. I mean WTF? It seems so obvious that they are confused and almost in a panic.
Mine anyway. I just need to re-read Pursuit distance. After a month of nothing he's been really cycling this way since last Sat. :)
I'm going to be the squirrel and be aloof. :o Not to scare anyone off...I wouldn't want him to see me having HOPE...that scares them :o Now your OWs dangling around, moving here, moving there, I mean come on' our Hs are going to wake up and be like :o :o :o How'd I get here? Keep the Faith Crazy for Him :) I have a feeling Trick or Treating will be interesting in your neighborhood this year! ::)
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I know I will be strong and won't freak out like I am sure OW wants me to!!!
Thanks for all the reassurance- they will break up one day right???????
I will be strong..................if there was a lLIKE button on the forum then I would certainly LIKE this.
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CFH, Totally. If we'd only step back and just pretend for 1 minute that this is happening to a close friend of ours instead of us. ??? We could see clearly that this is NOT NORMAL behavior. The clingy boomerang also. I mean WTF? It seems so obvious that they are confused and almost in a panic.
Sometimes I do that, look at it like it is someone else life. The MCLer way of doing things is fascinating. More than hamster in the wheel is hamster running around like mad trying to escape the cage and bangging its ahead against it, trapping on their own feet.
It is panick, Mamma, pretty sure it is panick on top of confusion.
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Thanks MB, DL...
My H totally seems like he's in a panic...not sure how this is their happy life, but all this happened after they broke up for 1 day and then got back together. H came to me and brought printed out divorce papers, talked about selling the house, all of a sudden started looking for a bigger house with OW and don't tell me this wasn't ALL OW's idea, come on!!! WTF is right.
This is crazy- so a couple of weeks later, no more divorce talk, they find a place to move to right around the corner so her daughter can go to school with my kids...OMG (not sure how to handle that one) and now he wants to keep our matrimonial home! How do I keep my sanity with all of their insanity??
Thank God they don't move here until after Halloween MB...LOL!
Someone tell me how to deal with them living right around the corner- it has really got me in a tizzy especially when I was doing so well at detaching. OW really has the whip out now!!! Blows my mind how they see that relationship as so much better than what they had with us. If only they could see what we see.....
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I've been meaning for some time to write about the alienator. I know the feeling of blaming her, hating her for causing so much hurt, and not wanting to blame our H so much (because we love him). Of course our spouse is to blame for the lies they tell and the way they abandon us. But what about the OW? Why do they do it? Who are these OPs anyway?
They could believe the lies that your spouse tells them about you -- that you don't understand them, that they were never truly in love with you, or that they only married you for the kids.
I've always found this reason hard to stick. Unless the alienator does not think, how come someone is going to believe a person spends decades with another person and was not happy with them? Also, when the alienator knows the couple some of the lies may be also hard to believe. Except, of course, if you are deluded and so “in love” that you can not see past what they are telling you.
The going for the money, family or social connections makes more sense to me. Or they simply fall, or thought they had fall, in love and our spouses played along.
There are all types of OW. There are those with their own PDs, who thinks that a man will make her feel whole, etc. There are money grabbers. There are some who are so self-centred that they don't appear to think about the damage they are causing.
H's OW's opinion was that a marriage doesn't end because of a third person, but because of the problems it has in itself. That neatly ends any sense of responsibility she has towards it.
But I do believe that she thought that his marriage had actually ended. I saw the emails in which H told her so, and others where he said that his feelings for me had just gone out. He sent her photos of himself on holiday with his children, not mentioning that I was there too. He stopped putting photos of me on FB some time ago. She probably never knew that we were still ML all through the time when they were meeting up. Decades of unhappiness with his wife? Her own parents had a disfunctional and loveless marriage for years.
So, yes, I think that OWs certainly believe the stories.
I have friends who have been the OW, but all very different. One is a minx, provocative and seductive, and was certainly needy. She caused his divorce, and married him, then had his child. But after a decade as alcoholics together, they split.
Another friend of mine became OW after her own marriage failed (her H was unfaithful). She lived with her married man for 15 years, but he still went on holiday with his family and spent weekends with them so that his MIL wouldn't find out. Strangely enough, it was during his MLC that he went back to his wife, only to find that he was really unhappy. But my friend will not have him back.
Yet another friend became the OW, believing what her lover told her, that he was very unhappy with his wife, despite having three children together. When my friend moved in with him, and he divorced his wife, his wife became incredibly bitter, making life as difficult as she could for my friend, her H, and the children. My friend only married him after living together, very happily, for more than 25 years, then he died a year later. Even at the funeral, the wife was bitter, and caused a scene that can't have helped anyone. I know my friend is a very kind and balanced person, and I know she reached out to the ex W, who scorned her at every turn.
I don't know if this helps anyone. I know that I need to get rid of any bitterness left in my heart about OW, because it is such a terrible feeling to live with.
Some OWs have deep issues, some are manipulative and needy, or just selfish. But not all of them are. The worst thing we can do is to end up like the ex W of my friend; so full of hate that she poisoned her own life and those of her children.
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AnneJ, I haven't really SEEN too much of my MLCer since FEB. Sure the drop offs and pick ups but it is easier for them to keep their mask in place if they rush in and rush out. These last 5 days I have been around him for some small periods of time.
It is very interesting to really look at their mannerisms. He's been texting and calling me a lot as well. Fixing my car door. Hanging with the kids back at Bowser's after they do HW here. Buying me ice cream. Of course I ask a question "Where's that little gate to keep kids inside" " Oh" he says "I took it bc on Fridays WE watch a kid. Well some friends come over and they have a kid." So I get teary eyed and hide it well. He is very
considerate of my feelings. If in the last few days I feel like buzzing away from him bc he says something about the future in his 'new life' I can feel him chasing me down to apologize.
His new thing is to mouth the words "STOP IT!" in a weird smiling way. Like I shouldn't worry. :o :o :o :o
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Mamma, maybe your husband is sensing he must reconect with you. Maybe he is starting to see life with OW is not that great. Still, of course, the crisis is not over yet so, he may just change again.
Mermaid, if alienator never knwe the couple before I can accept that they believe the stories our spouses tell them. If they knew the couple before, after a while, unless you never stop to think, you're going to start wondering.
Keep no hard feelings towards OW1 or OW2. OW1 knew husband was married, should had stayed away from him. But he should had not let her get near him. OW2 did not knew, when she met husband, that he was married. She thought that he was a single guy that had broke with his GF (OW1) a few months before. She knows he is married for more than 3 years. Again, he is the one who is responsible for letting her thought he was a single guy. Keep no bhar feeling tiowards husband. He does not know what he is doing. But he is still responsable for his actions.
"Yet another friend became the OW, believing what her lover told her, that he was very unhappy with his wife, despite having three children together. When my friend moved in with him, and he divorced his wife, his wife became incredibly bitter, making life as difficult as she could for my friend, her H, and the children. My friend only married him after living together, very happily, for more than 25 years, then he died a year later. Even at the funeral, the wife was bitter, and caused a scene that can't have helped anyone. I know my friend is a very kind and balanced person, and I know she reached out to the ex W, who scorned her at every turn."
Some people really are unhappy in theirs marriages and some marriages do get stale and in a rut. But, its that thing, one thing is to walk out of a marriage because you are unhappy, another to do so when there is an alienator. Well, not all spouses have this forum to help them. It is natural that the wife become bitter and did not wanted OW to reach out to her.
Must say that a marriage does not end because of infidelity. It depends if the betrayed spouse can, or cannot, forgive and how much work the cheater is willing to do. And, harder this sounds, some marriages only survive because there is a 3rd person.
People whose spouses cheated on them that end up being the other person confuse me. Do they think the spouse of their lover is going to feel different from what they felt when they were cheated on?...
In all the cases you mentioned the relashionship with OW lasted for ages. So...but maybe they were not MLC cases...
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No, none of them were MLC cases. They were just OW stories. OWs of MLCers don't often realise that the man is in MLC, and swallow the stories. As you say, if they have know the couple for years, they should have some judgement.
Must say that a marriage does not end because of infidelity. It depends if the betrayed spouse can, or cannot, forgive and how much work the cheater is willing to do. And, harder this sounds, some marriages only survive because there is a 3rd person.
So true. The end of a marriage is far more complex. Infidelity can be the outward sign of something going wrong, and can trigger other changes, sometimes positive, that may not have happened otherwise. It's still a hard thing to get over, though.
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Non MLC other person stories can be very different than MLC ones. My uncle had a OW for 9 years (not MLC) he end up leaving and they are still together. Its been more than 25 years since he left. Now we all know her, she is very nice. My aunt has a boyfriend and in my cousing birthdays they all get together and everybody gets along fine.
Of course things were not like this for years on end. Everybody has gotten old, the children had children, aunt got a boyfriend, life moved on. But my uncle never did any of the crazy things MLCers do.
Infidelity is hard to get over but MLC and all the damage that goes with it is far worse. Of course there are always complex reasons for the end of a marriage or to infidelity, often, like in MLC, issues of the cheating spouse. And yes, some positive things can come after infidelity. Not saying one needs infidelity to make good things happen, one does not. But a bad thing can be turned into something positive.
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True, I think if my spouse never left I wouldn't have looked deep into myself and see what I needed to fix.
The OW obviously gave them something we couldn't at that time. Not that I would ever say that infidelity is excusable but it has made me see ALOT of things that can be fixed and standing for my marriage and knowing that our marriage will be a million times better upon H's return is certainly something to look forward to.
It does really boggle my mind that the OW doesn't see what we see. Can they really be totally oblivious to the man standing in front of them- very questionable as to why they stay for so long in the relationship with all that H does
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Not so certain the alienator gave them something we couldn't at the time. Maybe more they though we couldn 't. My busband said, right after BD, that he thought I no longer loved him. Could not say why he thought that, said maybe he had fell it but he was wrong.
OW does not see what we see for a number of reasons. With my husband, OW1 lived away, they only saw themselves on weekends or when they would go travel. They never lived a daily life together. It was always wonderful and high. OW2 sees a man that is great, so social, capable of giving her a social circle she would never be part of. She sees all the glamour of that nightlife, clubbing, meeting people that tunr up in certain magazines, people that are talked about in a certain circle (DJ's, some musicians, no one really that famous, but people with a more glowing life than next door joe). Or a life that looks more glowing than next door joe one. Would say that she does not want to leave husband not let him out of that life. Would loose all the shine and attencion.
Husband makes sure he always keeps OW2 dazzed with so much glamour and "fame". OW, like the MCLer, they only see what they want to see.
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But once the honeymoon phase is over they must see cracks in the foundation and it's not so rosie dosie.
I know that happens in every relationship (the honeymoon phase fizzles) but I can't believe they see through all the lies and deception and just let it go. Who does that? I guess only insecure, manipulative, desperate and needy people.
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I'd like to add some thoughts to this discussion.
Obviously, there are "differences" between an MLC affair and an affair that does not involve one or both affair partners being in MLC.
I strongly believe, however, that getting romantically/physically involved with any person who is married, even if they're separated, is a dangerous, dishonest thing to do and I have reservations about the character of anyone who would make the decision to do so.
Even if the story the married person is telling the affair partner is the most heart rending, horrible thing imaginable, and even if it's all true, I believe people who respect the rights of others would chose not to become an affair partner until the other person had honorably and with honesty ended their marriage.
All affairs involve lying, manipulation (usually of the clueless spouse,) betrayal of vows, excruciating pain, and potentially deep damage to children, if there are any. Even affairs that result in reconciliation or never trigger a separation of the married couple do major, long-lasting damage, especially in the area of trust.
Can affairs be "good" for some marriages in that issues that needed addressing are finally brought out into the open? Yes, that's true, but I refuse to believe that an affair is the only way such issues could have been addressed.
While I agree that my H's affair has forced me to do some very serious soul-searching and has afforded me the opportunity to deeply look at what were the dysfunctional ways of relating to each other that contributed to my H's crisis, I cannot say that the affair was the only way this work could have been done.
Perhaps with more time I will have a different opinion on this. Perhaps I will come to see that my H's affair was the only way I was going to "wake up" to the things I was doing, or not doing, that contributed to my H's decision to leave me and live with someone else. Perhaps.
But at this point in my journey, I still think the price has been too high--for me, for my H, for my D, for the OW's H (who she divorced to be with my H) and, I strongly suspect, for the OW's adult children.
While I think most divorces could and should be avoided, I realize that some are justified. Affairs, however, are dishonest, destructive, cruel methods of extricating oneself from an impossible marriage. I don't believe anyone should be a part of an affair, no matter how "dead" or dysfunctional the marriage might be, nor no matter how much in love they are with the married affair partner.
My 2 cents.
TMHP
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Trusting, I do not think an affair is the only way some issues could be addressed. Nor that it is a good thing to happen. But if it does, at least may we get something positive out of it.
Well, been separated for over 5 years, husband is a vanisher for over 3 years, lives with OW2. would say it is hardly disonest if I get involved with someone... Leave MLC aside for a minute and imagine we have a spouse that is forever confined to a mental institution. Shall we remain the rest of our lives without affection and ML? Shall we divorce our ill spouse?...There are many shades of grey.
Agree one should not, in theory, become involved with someone that is still married even if the terrible marriage was really terrible (and lets not fool ourselves there are really terrible marriages) but theory and reality are different things. Lets also not forget that some people marriages are just an arrangment, that both spouses are aware that there will be affairs (well, in these cases in does not count as infidelity).
crazy, don't know. they seem to be able to outlive honeymoon fase. husband is with OW2 for more than 3 years, lives together for 2 or more. They moved house less than 2 years ago, so, the new flat must had gave them a high...
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I think...for me because I have been on both sides of the coin here...There is NO excuse for an affair..none!
No matter what the cheater tells the other person...if the OM/OW KNOWS that person IS married..it should never take
place...period. If someone is lied too...and that person has NO clue the other is married...then you cant blame them
BUT, if at ANY time they find out...then it should be stopped then...
I have NO excuse for what I did...but the OM knew I was married...He should have walked away that moment he found out, regardless of how I felt..just my .02
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TMHP
I couldn't have said it better myself!
But true as there are other ways that self evaluation could have been brought to the table- in my situation
I wasn't even thinking I did anything wrong at that point. Upon his leaving I had to re-evaluate and that's when the
soul searching begun...not sure if it would have happened if he didn't leave (but will never know)
CFH
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period. If someone is lied too...and that person has NO clue the other is married...then you cant blame them
BUT, if at ANY time they find out...then it should be stopped then...
OW2 was lied to. Did not seem to matter. She is lasting more than OW1 that new he was marriied. Maybe OW2 not knowing from the start is what made husband to run to court, a "see, i'm in this for real, i'm going to court and all"...don't know who had the idea of them living together...living together is another way of saying "see, i'm really in this for real. We moved in together, what moredo you need to be sure I'm really into you?". ::)
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Do they really see all the progress we are making? Cause they avoid us so much for fear of us
seeing that they are truly unhappy- do they see that we are becoming content with ourselves and our lives.
And does it scare them? Probably not enough to come running back but hopefully enough to shake some sense into them...
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Do they really see all the progress we are making? Cause they avoid us so much for fear of us
seeing that they are truly unhappy- do they see that we are becoming content with ourselves and our lives.
And does it scare them? Probably not enough to come running back but hopefully enough to shake some sense into them...
Don't know how much they see. Have realised the more they fear us, the more they mess up, the more they run. Husband did not spoke to me for years on end (nor I to him) but he always left is gmail chat on. About two months ago, already into his second fault divorce process (another wonderful work of projection and lies), I had to ask him a thing (money related). For the first time, in 5 years, he closed the chat and never opened it again.
Don't know the real reason why he did so. Angry? Aware of the fool he has made of himself again?...
Think it scares them when they see us GALing even if we are going throught hard times. It would scare me if I had done what they have. Would make sure I run as fast as I could very, very far away.
Not sure how/when they manage to stop the fear and gain courage to aproach us again. If ever...
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ANNEJ, my H said he thought I didn't love him either. I relive those few months that he was having the affair (I found out the time line later of course) and can't figure out why he would say that. It was told to him, and I was available to him. However, there were places he wanted to go, and he hated his job and wanted to escape often. Unfortunately, I have two kids to take care of. I couldn't drop everything and go on each of his trips. There were one or two i could have tried, but my parents are very old and i would have to impose on them. But none of that matters other than to say for some reason, my not "running away with him" when HE wanted, he interpreted as me not loving him, even though I showed him that I loved him in other ways. He saw what he saw, and heard what he heard. Today, I am more conscious of that need he has, but I still have to balance that with the needs of my children.
When my D17 was a toddler, she kicked the piano when I was playing it. I stopped and said, "why did you do that?" She replied, "because when you do that, you don't love me." Such is my H in MLC-the toddler (other times he's a teenager).
Why didn't OW see that? She was a psychology major too, you'd think she'd pick that up. Instead she pushed him, telling him I only thought of myself, or that I purposely set up the kids to need me so I wouldn't have to spend time with him. She set her sights on him and created a path. She was convinced she had him too. However there were times she accused him of "still loving me" and being a "cheater", and she couldn't trust him when he visited us, so why hitch herself to his wagon? if she had any doubts about my H, why rely on him? i wouldn't. I guess she saw what she wanted to see. She wanted someone to rely on when she got her divorce so she ignored any misgivings.
anglegirl
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Angelgirl...that has been my question. Why doesn't OW see what we see, cause H can't be mr. wonderful 100% of the time. It's not possible and when OW sees how they are with us- I think I would run in the other direction.
Always will boggle my mind!
Question: Any good tips on how to get back up when you fall off the wagon
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ANNEJ, my H said he thought I didn't love him either.
I heard this as well... Angelgirl has explained all of this beautifully... nothing you could have done as they were in a full blown pity party. OW see what she wants to see... she is NEEDY and insecure, but comes across as "confident" which attracts men like magnets.... MLC men are especially attracted to "confident, but needing a hero as she has pulled herself up by the bootstraps (or out of an abusive relationship, whatever BS they say...) and they ADMIRE that quality...
NOW, my husband is pissed at OW for lying to him over and over... little things.... but one MAJOR thing (as far as I'm concerned) is he discovered she lied about how much money she makes as a head hotel maid..... I'll never forget the SMUG look on his monster face when he told me "She makes $16 an hour!" I guess to hurt me because I "don't work".... oh, but.... she's a bad, selfish mother, won't cook.... not attractive.... he told me she's "UGLY INSIDE!!".
OW sees that the MLCer has whatever they need....unlimited DRAMA time.... SCHMOOPIE drama.... drama of an evil wife that she can SAVE him from, etc. OW is a narcissist.... if not forever, at the time they met and carried on the affair.... both of them TOTALLY and UTTERLY SELFISH!! Once NEITHER one of them are getting their selfish needs met, they fight! TWO SELFISH PEOPLE cannot even be in the same room together....
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LG...so why doesn't H see through the OW? They don't know they are being manipulated, controlled, used????
Especially since my H NEVER was to be told what to do by ANYONE.
And my MIL is convinced that he has his own mind and that he is NOT being controlled. She thinks HE is in control of that relationship....is this possible. My MIL sees them together very often so I tend to believe her and then my mind goes all crazy and up and down. Maybe I shouldn't talk to my MIL about H and OW....probably best!!!
But MIL and I are close and she wants me and H back together so she keeps an eye out for me- so to speak.
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From RCR's article In-fatuation vs In-love
"The hormonal flows in both the alienator and MLCer interfere with rational judgment and appropriate behaviour. This is not an excuse, merely an explanation."
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..so why doesn't H see through the OW?
At first, she is just a mirror to his narcissism.... and a distraction!! The infatuation covers up a lot of truths.... even in a good relationship! We all remember what it was like in the beginning... we didn't notice the holes in his underwear!
He sees through her NOW.... now that he's caught her in a bunch of lies... now that he wonders if she is manipulating him (the MLCer believes EVERYONE is manipulating him, EXCEPT OW at first..... ), now that sh
We are in the box of memories on a shelf, while he struggles to MAKE IT WORK with OW.... eventually he will feel contempt for her...because she will fail him. She will FAIL him because SHE is a mess, a liar... a cheat... a doormat.... but she will ALSO fail him because she can no longer pretend... she has to let down her guard... like anyone does once you feel your lover LOVES you... they should love you even if you just farted in bed, right? Ummmm.... NO!! The alienator is supposed to be a FANTASY!! Farting in bed is not allowed!! Only the WIFE may fart in bed... ;D ;D ;D
Your MIL might want the two of you back together... (so does mine!) but she knows NOTHING about MLC, regardless of what you may have told her... she thinks you're nuts, but keeps it to herself... UNLESS, she has been through this herself. She would tell you if she had.... Glad she's on your side!! But, she has NO IDEA what she is seeing in her own son... My MIL remarked about how cranky and crabby her son was on our vacay.... as if I hadn't already clued her in a hundred times!! But MLC is not believed my most people... they can't imagine it...
Give it time. I told my MIL to "please pray for him and try not to judge him..." She is Catholic, and I knew that prayer would be her "go to" fix.... asking her to not judge was a heads up on the affair that she knew, that I knew, that he didn't think she knew about....
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Thanks you so much LG :):):)
so if H sees through all her crap then it is only a matter of time right?
I'm over 2 years into this so seeing the light at the end of this tunnel. I guess from the outside looking in, it looks like they are moving forward in their R (like getting more serious- he is introducing her to more family members, moving into a bigger house, having the kids more often so I do get a little crazy about this)
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This article is excellent regarding the relationship with OW.
http://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/standing-actions_dealing-with-infidelity_woman-scorned2.html
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The stronger you are in the face of a full-blown public affair, the weaker she will be, the more controlling she will become and the more she will pressure him. Let her invade his space, let her become jealous and controlling, let her become pathetic, and best of all let her bad-mouth you to him. This will eventually put him in a position where he feels the need to defend you which will frighten the alienator even more and she will sink lower into her destructive behaviours. You do not need to do anything toward them actively for this to happen. It occurs naturally when there is an empowered and Standing spouse who refuses to play dirty.
Can someone clarify......if I just stand back and watch their R from afar and do nothing or say nothing to cause conflict with H and I how does that make OW jealous- wouldn't she be happier that H and I are no longer communicating like we used to? I guess I would think she would think "thank god I have him all to myself now"
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from Crazyforhim
"if I just stand back and watch their R from afar and do nothing or say nothing to cause conflict with H and I how does that make OW jealous- wouldn't she be happier that H and I are no longer communicating like we used to? I guess I would think she would think "thank god I have him all to myself now""
This part of that same article can give some insight to your question.
An alienator may feel more threatened and become more controlling as the relationship becomes seemingly safer and more solidified. Why?
•Now that she seems to have won, she has more to lose.
•Perfection is difficult to maintain; she has to maintain her fantasy self. She now has farther to fall.
•She may not have a safety net of supportive friends or family available to her.
•She becomes paranoid that she will lose what she won.
•She's in a relationship with someone who has proven capable of cheating.
•The more time they have together, the more time they have to know each other; true colours reveal themselves.
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Yes I feel kind of silly...as I kept reading the article it kind of explained that.
But I guess when the OW notices that H and I aren't as close I would just think that she would be
relieved and happy and not be so jealous cause in her mind "I am gone"
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cfh,
For a 'normal', healthy relationship, your concerns are rational and valid. It does seem they are happily setting up a new life.
However, the foundation of the R is lies, betrayal, pity poor me parties, and they are amped up by drama, drama, and more drama. Where the drama comes from seems to vary, but the first favorite is a spouse and children. The affair partners control each other through a cycle of fear, anxiety, bonding and relief. Add in the confusion, fear, and run away life of an MLCer, you will see what seems to be forward movement in the A. BUT, the movement is an attempt to maintain status quo, and/or a giving in to manipulation.
How far will they go? Or allow themselves to be controlled? IDK.
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why doesn't OW see...
I remember reading the article as well, and it is all true. I had written a letter to OW about how our marriage was strong, and there were many people that were hurt over their relationship. I didn't yell or criticize her, but the letter detailed my love for H over the years, and how he was going through something right now. Her response was that i was "eloquent" but in "obvious despair" and that i needed to "muster all the strength i had to get through what was to come"
In other words: she didn't care to see he might be in a temporary emotional imbalance right now (she sees what she wants to see)
she didn't care that I was hurt or that children and family were getting hurt (selfish)
she was convinced that she had him (her ego. She needed him and at that point, she felt secure that she had him)
My H was attracted to (1) her supposed confidence and (2) her need to be saved from a loveless marriage and boring husband (knight/hero)
My H thought she was perfect (at first), but when I responded like the article said, (a confident, detached stander), her predictions were shattered. My H started to see that she might not be right about everything. Maybe she's not so smart.
I shed light on their relationship and talked about it like it was a case study of a naughty child. She was taken aback. That's not was i was suppose to do. She started to get insecure. I started to make predictions that DID come true: I told H that she will make demands and ask to be taken care of (to which he selfishly responded, "what? who's going to take care of ME???) and that she would try to keep him out of our house (she did, and she became more frantic and angry if she found out he came into the house, or worse, slept here); and that he wouldn't be able to confide in her, for fear of her reaction (true, and she flipped out at him and insulted our kids too). I merely stayed calm.
Yesterday, I asked H what he saw in her, and all he can say now was that he stopped thinking altogether, and no matter what his "little voice" or well-meaning friends would say, he either ignored the statements or heard a twisted version of the advice. For example, a co-worker warned him that OW was "ripe" for an affair. H took it to mean she was hot for him. Co-worker was warning him that she was trouble. H sees that now, but he said back then, that's not what he understood.
Another male friend said, "why did you seek out OW? Everyone gets lonely and frustrated at times. Next time you feel like you are in a marriage rut, just call me and hang out at a sports bar with me." H heard that friend understood why he was unhappy and needed an escape and implied that he supported H's actions. Friend was so angry at my H's interpretation that he didn't speak to him until we reconciled. And my female friend said to him "You need to make a decision. You've got three beautiful girls at home that love you." She said that H snottily replied, "what, are you going to make that decision for me?" He said TO ME that my friend actually said, "do whatever makes you happy." :o My friend said, "he's messed up. Did I have a conversation with someone else???" She also cut him off until we reconciled.
OW also was caught in lies. OW's main complaint of me is that i "didn't work" and mooched off of my H. She said I spent too much. The problem with that, is that I am a budgeter. I look for deals, and I hardly spend any money on myself. So H tried very hard to justify her comment. He claimed that her home expenses were only $2000 per month (according to her). Hun, I explained, taxes in that county alone are 2K a month. What about car insurance, college expenses, phones, heat, electric, food, after-school activities, clothes and her penchant for traveling? We live in an expensive state. In our neck of the woods, a middle class family is strapped if they can keep the expenses down to 4K a month, and that's for the most frugal of families. I remember he insisted she was telling the truth, but numbers don't lie. At around this point, his cousin called family members and begged them to help H get away from manipulative OW.
Ok, so my point is that H did NOT see the truth, even when someone spoke plainly. OW was manipulative type. I believe she found her own H that way, but lost respect for him over the years. She seeks out the same type of man over and over. Her view of what love is is incorrect, and she will never be happy. The two were VERY selfish and toward the end, the mistrust and "what-have-you-done-for-me-lately" attitude cracked their seemingly perfect relationship. At one point she yelled at him "you might not be a strong enough man for me!!!" I on the other hand, offered support for his troubled mind. So I became the refuge and escape to a volatile relationship.
Today OW feels H wronged her. OW feels foolish of course, because she told everyone at work she had my H and they had a future together. Just yesterday, H said to me that OW just wanted someone to fall back on when she asked for the divorce. That she'd been talking about it for years, but not until she knew she "had" my H would she actually go through with it. H said that OW didn't love him (maybe she doesn't know how to, he acknowledges) and that she was ultimately the insecure one, not me. That in sharp contrast to what she predicted I would do, I turned out to be the secure, strong one that loved him for him and not for what he was needed for.
It takes a certain spouse to give in to MLC and a certain OW to be waiting in the wings to take advantage of it.
angelgirl
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Angel,
wow, are we married to the same man?? LOL or atleast are our H's were/with the same OW...jeeeze!
My H's OW said all that same stuff about me....and well, my H would get furious at everyone for disliking OW..
like it was their fault NOT H's...lol
its all so very crazy, and I am glad your H seen through it...mine is seeing the truth now....NOT all of it..but most anyway :D
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I have a question for anyone who might have an answer? I keep hearing these OW are controlling and manipulative.
My H says she is a nice person, a good mother even though she lost custody of her son 14 years ago. Is it possible for the MLCers to not see what type of person they are with? Could he be in denial about her? So far I don't see any evidence
of her being insecure at all. When H is with my S she doesn't call or text H like I read on this forum. They have been together for a little over a year and I would think she would have let her guard down by now. My H refers himself as the
King of his house now! (wierd) He told our S no one is going to tell him what to do in his house. (He's become very controlling) So maybe his OW because of the way he is now and all his lies about me saying I was controlling ect., maybe she is letting him be King
and he controls her. I don't know. She may be to afraid to act controlling around him for fear he would get rid of her which he told me about 2 months ago if she ever became controlling or manipulative he would get rid of her. It just makes me wonder. Anyone have any thoughts?
NB
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NB...you asked the exact question I am trying to understand as well.
I hear that OW is nice and very quiet and lets H make all the decisions and is not controlling.
But we have no idea what is going on behind closed doors. We only know what they want us to see.
I have noticed the texts and visits have almost disappeared and the distance from me has been in stages so it's like she tells him one thing and then he complies and then she waits for a bit and then the next thing comes so I can see it's her pulling all the strings but men would never admit that they allow a woman to tell them what to do- so my guess is lies, lies and more lies!!!!
But my H is the same- nobody tells him what to do so I wonder if she even tried he would be furious...so yes the question remains. Are some OW's not controlling???? or is it just their nature and H goes along even if it's not in their personality to do so?? Think I know the answer but yes NB looking for some feedback as well on that one!
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From RCR's article Woman Scorned Part II
"If you trust the process of MLC and that infidelity does not yield secure relationships, you will not be fooled, but many are easily fooled. Have faith in the process."
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NB and Crazy4Him , I thought that when our Hs do the 180 and are completely different people than we knew , they attract someone of the opposite sex to mirror their sh**ty self worth. Some mess that actually looks up to them in such a low state. :o To me , right now, my H looks like a psych patient. Running all over claiming to be looking for work. He's not. Claims he got a job. (if his DMV abstract is fixed) etc etc :o
I used to laugh in his face. Not any more. I just listen. OW Bowser must listen and think :o :o :o I thought this cute guy had his act together. Maybe just his W has her act together. He's a mess but she STILL LOOKS UP TO HIM!! At least he has a car,tv,cable,phones, 401k, health insurance and a wife and kids!!!! Hello? NB we shouldn't worry about OP. They hang out with them bc "it's easy to be around people you don't care about!!" (I think that's one of the things LGs MadHatter said once) Makes sense. :)
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Mamma ~ True, that makes sense. She is a low life skank and I'm not just saying that because she is with my H. She truly has that reputation in their town. It makes me laugh that these MLCers pick these low life woman to validate them, to be their Knight and Shining Armour. They are low lifes. Who cares. I would be embarrassed to be with someone like that yet it makes them feel wonderful when these OW validate them. It is just plain crazy how they think. :o I guess thats because they truly are crazy right now. Now I know why when the articles say when they wake up and realize what they have done, look at who they are with and the fact that they chose to abandon their family for this person, some just can't handle what they have done. I really have a feeling that my H is going to be one of those. The thought of that scares me. Only time will tell.
NB
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DGU...I believe I am one of the ones who have been easily fooled!!! Shame on me.
I am trying to trust the process and my gut feelings that H still loves me.
Mama, you seem to get more information from your H on your R. I know every sitch is different but my H
talks about everything but his R's (with me and the OW). It is either business or small talk.
I got a text this morning- "So did you watch the Walking Dead last night?" WTF
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Crazy, You should have texted back.."No, I haven't seen you in awhile" ;D
Don't be fooled, just because you don't hear about the details, they (OP)are all are disfunctional. My H used to say she is so nice, independent, has many friends, etc. Now, after the affair is over, I hear, she got mad alot, still calling him a few times a week (clingy), never goes out, she sot of manly, not attractive, friends are all low life's, etc. After the infatuation stage is over, it's all down hill..it just takes way longer than we ever would want it to.
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MammaBear: OMG, when you called him a "psych patient" i nearly peed in my pants. Too funny. My H said, "you treated me like i was mentally ill" well, if it looks like a duck, acts like a duck....
MB and NB: I think they do pick the person that is better suited for their opposite self. The OW in my situation was manipulative, but don't forget, at the time H thought she was sweet, innocent and needed help. (He called her naive because she didn't date much before she got married. But she's 49 and had more boyfriends than I had) The mentally ill part comes in because she was suppose to "take care of him" But, he also thought he was the King. H had said, "I lost control at home" I remember saying, "do you feel like you're in control now?" OW really went out of her way to make it seem like he was in control when he wasn't. It wasn't until she started to crack when his mushed up brain started to see that.
NB: didn't you say that H told you once that if OW ever tried to push him around he'd throw her out? Some men think they are in control, but they aren't. my H wants to feel like the king of the castle. I can be strong, and I do manage things around here. So he is attracted to manager types. But, he wants to think he's the captain. Your H went for someone who is needy and quiet, but she knows what to say and do to keep him thinking he's in control. He feels important at a time when he's done something disgusting and immoral. OW MUST not want him to leave. She needs him. She has no life, no respect without him. She's saying the things he wants to hear. No matter what you say to him, he won't see that. He has to see it for himself. No matter what I told my H about OW, or what others said, he defended her. She made him feel like "no other person could understand her like he does" Oy vey!
My own D13 said, "what kind of person must she be Dad, if she bails on her family with a D my age? What does that make her?" at the time, H had said, "she's nice, you'd like her."
Older D said, "she's not our type."
H doesn't remember these lines, but he remembers the infatuation and the feeling he felt. The excitement of OW helped him get through feeling trapped and lonely. He knows now that it wasn't love.
synicca: i do believe your H will go through it. they all do. Some are lucky to have standers, but most come back realizing they lost it all and they have to make do with what they have left. My H, as stupid as he was for doing what he did, had to face the humiliation of leaving OW and admitting he was wrong and dealing with all the "I-told-you-sos" and "he's-just-a-user-cheater-player" judgments at work. Had he stayed with OW, he would have done so to "prove" to the world it wasn't just an MLC affair. My assurances that we'd rebuild together and a letter from my Dad (representing a very large family) that forgiveness was possible, helped my H think he could get through it. I think that's why when he came home he through a big backyard party: he wanted to rehabilitate himself at work and with our friends at home.
OW had harsh words for him when he left, and everyone at work heard them. "he was a user" "he had no soul" I remember my H saying, "people thing my word is mud." (it was mud at the moment he decided in his head our marriage was over, DUH).
After the initial breakdown I had, I refused to be pulled down to his level. I never cursed at him, and I was the shoulder he'd cry on. If he called about a show (for us CforHim it was True Blood), I'd listen to his evaluation of the show. I'd comment and say, "it's not the same watching it without you. But I'll talk about it, 'cause this could be the last time." He remembers thinking that every time I said things like that, he felt sad. My comments that I'd Stand, but not forever (I had a sort-of deadline), made him panic. The panic fueled OW to show her manipulative colors. Again, SHE did it, not me...not directly anyway.
angelgirl
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Angelgirl, There's a psych floor at the hospital I work. When my coworkers and I are acting out down here we call ourselves "Psych patients" :o :o :o
I love your tales from the Crypt about OW and H. Fascinating. It really is the hardest part the affair. I can't get around that naked with a stranger thing and then "Oh well it is what it is" Totally crazed nonsense. I guess our senses of humor and kindness keep us going. :)
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NB, OW are controlling and manipulative. Now I know for sure. Had been keeping files on the computer, clearing clutter and also separating documents that may be important for my court defence/legal reason and come across a file of messages exchanged between husband and OW1 between July and September 06.
Many things come of it, starting by how delusional they both are. Also get to know the rough part, that they’ve meet a few times before he left. But, stetting the small upstness that comes with it (after all, at this point, that is hardly a surprise ::)), it is fascinating to see the dynamics of such relationship.
Husband is still a vanisher and currently living with OW2 but I’m certain he will not remember most of the things he said to her. I’ve had a talk to him, in March 2008 (years before I’ve find this file) and he did not remember some things I did remember he did. So, perhaps he, now, or when he come out of the MLC, he may not even remember stuff the had done, like places where he meet with OW1 or why he meet her (same, I guess, will be valid for things said and done with OW2).
There are priceless pieces of in-fatuation “love” prose, a marvellous follow up of the scrip. And yes, they become teenagers again. ::) ::) ::)
Things like, after the fist time they meet in person and had a “love” afternoon on OW1 car front seats in the end of July 2006. Must be noted that husband always dismissed the though of making love in a car as a kids stuff, ridicu]lous.
Husband “I felt live an adolescent again, like with my first love (no idea who is/was is first love. He never talked to me about her.), There is something I think about but, out of respect for Anne, I cannot say. What happened that day is all my fault, I should had not let it happened. But I had no strengths to say no. How could I it is all so strong, so intense…” (until that day they had only talked on the internet and exchanged text messages).
OW1 “Of course I understand that you could had not said it. I admire for it, I admire you for your respect for Anne. Don’t feel guilty for not had been able to prevent things from happening. How were we going to prevent it from happening? I thing it was beyond us, because, just like you’ve said, it is very intense…”
Husband: “My love, please don’t be angry. Not to disrespect by relationship with Anne, it is a many years long relationship, but, yes, I feel that what we have is so special. You are right, it is so intense…”
Now, jump to early September 2006.
OW1: “There is one thing I need to ask you, I’m sorry, but I do need to ask. Will you ever me mine and only mine?”
Husband: “I cannot answer to that. I do not know. Anything in life can happen.”
OW1: “I understand, I should had not put the question like that. I should had asked, would you ever wanted to be just with me? I respect and like you for your sincerity but I’m here fighting for us, I am giving up my values, the values that I’ve always have, for our love, to be with you. I’m a woman of strong values, a person of dignity who praises her self very high. I need to know I’m not compromising my values in vain. You’re the man I’ve been waiting for all my life, my love, please don’t let me down, please don’t let our love die. What we have is so special, so unique. I do not want to loose you, I would not bear to loose you.” (of course you praise your self very high and are very high values person. You just could not keep away from a married man…the man you’ve been waiting for all your life… ;D ;D ::) ::) ::))
Husband: “I did not wanted to hurt you, my love, nor I want you to compromise your values for me. I, to, need to overcome some values so that we can be together. Sometimes I try not to even thing about what I’m doing, if I think too much I would most likely not do what I’m doing. So, I let myself be guided by my heart.”
A few days after, regarding a dinner party I and husband had been invited to as well as OW1 (by then no one knew she was OW1 and we were all part of the same cultural circle, even if she lived away and was rarely in our city.)
OW1:“I do not know what to say to MR Y, he is always so happy, talking about the dinner party, and has invited me. I do not want to hurt him not be inconsiderate but, my love, I would not be able to see you with any, I know it is absurd but I would feel betrayed.”
Some more days passed, the dinner party passed, husband and I had an argument (at this point I was already suspicious)
OW1:“My love, I’m so jealous of Anne. You both attended the dinner party and some of the people that have been there told me it was a great evening. I’m jealous of the past you two share, jealous of how you’ve spend so much time together, jealous of not been able to be part of the life of both of you. I’m even jealous you’ve had an argument with her. You’ve done well calling me, telling you’ve had an argument. You were so sad my love, so sad, I will take go care of you, I will always take good care of you.
Some more days go by, they start talking about how it would be like living together, even if, like Husband says “they do not know each other very well, they are very different, but what they have is such a beautiful love. And you, my love, make me feel alive”.
Husband : “You don’t know how to cook? I’m used to be pampered on the cooking department. I don’t cook much, I’ve only cooked the few times I’ve been on my own this years. Anne cooks. But, and this is really odd, I have a urge to cook for you, my love.”
OW1: “No, I do not know how to cook, I’m not a wife nor a house wife. I live with my family, I don’t know how to do anything, my mum does everything. Well, I cook pastas, I’m good at it. But I know I will be able to take good care of you, to praise you, do cuddle you. And we will be so happy in our little beach house, both rolled up in the couth, facing a good fire.”
There are, literally hundreds of messages between them from the end of 20 so of July and the 20 so of September. Plus the hundreds of text messages they mentioned they have exchanged, the daily lengthy conversation on messenger, the phone calls husband makes her when he is at work.
Most of the messages that are in the folder are all about she saying he is very handsome, that they should take a picture together and see how it looks great for sure, they are both very beautiful people, she says, She praises him for whatever, says she has never loved anyone like she loves him, that he is the man she’s been waiting for, the man of her life, that she knows they will be together for ever, that she is the only man for whom she excepts to give up her independence and life with. She makes plans, travelling Europe by car, walking hand in hand by the Senne, buying the beach house. She is also always talking of how jealous she is of all the women that he seeps with, of how they need to go shopping, of how much she loves shopping, shoes, dresses, how she likes to dress pretty for him, to be sweet and gentle and caring for him. How their love is so strong, capable of resisting the worst hardships.
He buys that but he never says she is the love of his life nor that he has never loved anyone like he loves her. He also says that he had loved to telll her, in person, many things about himself when they were together in the hotel bedroom.
Until he left they had seen each other, alone, four times. Twice in a hotel bedroom, (both had lied about where they were, she lied to her mother saying she was going to be with some friends, in one of the times he did not lied to me. He was in the hotel he said he was (it was work, he had a book room, she booked another one) and on the other he told me that he needed to took his sister, mother and grandmother to his grandmother village. There was no landline or internet in the grandmother house so, all I could was call in on his mobile), once in a seaside village where they had an afternoon of love in OW1 car, and once in the coach bus station, in the city we lived at (he had sneaked out of his job, easy, he always had a car job during the working hours and places to go; she had to distract the female friend that was with her) for a huge hugh and a kiss. After he left is was rented rooms, the rooms he rented, her bedroom in her parents house, and here and there more hotel rooms.
From what is on the messages the both times in the hotel prior to his leave were not that fabulous. They were “fantastic”, so sweet, but husband seems to had panicked and, on the second time, she left, first the bed in is bedroom, and moved to the other bed, and then, the room. And he “though I had lost you forever. I could not bear that I had hurt you, failed you”. And she, “IT was alright, I understand why you panicked but you need to see it, I’m compromising myself to be with you, risking a lot. I have to lie to my mother to be here”.
She also wrote him a story of the very independent Little Girl and Charming Prince. How the Little Girl that had seen all her friend marrying or getting together and having children had never meet anyone until he, the Charming Prince turned up. When he ahd, she decided she was going to give up her independence, and do what she had always said she would not do, spend her life with someone. The Little Girl had decided to change her life, wants to change her life and live a couple’s life. She knows it will be hard, but they deserve to be together, they must be together forever. The Little Girl that has never loved and her Charming Prince lived happily ever after. (NOT!)V
All absolutely priceless. And it was for such woman that my husband, and for different version of these woman and their male counterparts, that ours spouses left lifelong marriages and relationships. Some, like mine, where not happy with just one of these people and had to go for a second one. I think he is trying to life the dreamy couple life with OW2 that he never lived with OW1.
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AnnJ ~ You are right. I'm sure my H's OW does manipulate him, he just isn't seeing it. It's amazing how they make
them feel so good yet so guilty in one sentence. H's OW probably did that type of talk with him in Dec., saying things like, we should live together, leave your wife, we are meant for one another. Like I said, it all went down way to fast for him so she had to be telling him he was the love of her life while at the same time making comments about moving into together.
Thinking back, he started acting really edgey the entire month of February which BD was 2/25. She really pisses me off. Sorry, I know it takes two but these OW know what they are doing. She didn't care that she was taking a father away from his son or me. Their affair started as an EA affair Spring of 2010 and went physical last Sept., Dec. she was staying at OUR apt. with him, Feb. he was gone. And he says she is a nice person. Yeah, right! :'(
Thanks for your post. It gave me alot more insite as to how they are minipulative.
NB
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Wow Anne, that's amazing(?) stuff. Thanks so much for posting it!
It's so juvenile and pathetic. The neediness and manipulation of the OW's astounding.
What's going on with the MLCer that he finds that irresistible? Proof positive they're not in their right minds.
Six months into my H's affair with OW our then 19 year old D discovered his secret cell phone that he used only to communicate with OW. D read the text messages, was stunned, and confronted my H with what she'd discovered.
Her father told her "it's was just a friendship that got out of hand," "I don't see her anymore," "She's dying," (yeah, he really told D that) and begged D not to tell me what she'd discovered because, "If you tell mom she'll divorce me and then she'll be alone the rest of her life."!
Can you imagine a father doing/saying this to his D?!
D took the info to our therapist (who, at the time, was seeing all three of us both together and independently) and therapist told D it was ok if she told me and ok if she decided to withhold the information. That the decision was hers.
D decided that, for the sake of keeping her family "together," she would not tell me and chose to believe what her dad had told her about the EA being over. Quite a lot for a 19 year old to be dealing with, wouldn't you say?
When BD happened 18 months later, H did not tell me there was an OW. D came to me day after BD and told me about the phone discovery. She was heartsick and worried I would be angry with her for not telling me when she'd first discovered the phone.
I was angry all right but not at her. Her father had horribly manipulated her and, in my view, committed a kind of emotional incest with her. But that anger helped me in the very early days of BD since I could summon it to help deal with the crushing grief I was also experiencing.
Cowardly H never did tell me about OW. I had to tell him I knew about 2 weeks post BD. He cried.
Yeah, pathetic's the word.
TMHP
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You're welcome, NB and Thusting. It was an insight for me as well. Really amazing, that of making them feel so good and so guilty at the same time.
After BD mine also said she was a nice person. Well, they are probably nice. Good they are not. Or they were not at the time. But our spouses also aren't being good people.
In the messages I found they never mention divorce, marriage, he being a married man, she wanting to marry him. But he was monster with me at that time period (and after leaving/BD) and always talking of divorce. Giving silly reasons for wanting it.
Now OW1 does not upset me (at the time she did) and OW2 has never upsted me. Had been throught OW1, so, why bother with her replacement?...
"It's so juvenile and pathetic. The neediness and manipulation of the OW's astounding." exactly, so absurd.
Still can't figure out what is that they found so attractive. If I go throught the all bunch of messages she sounds, needy, clingy, manipulative, red flags all over. Over worried, to "frail", always in need of his confort (but, ah! she was a very independent woman who did not wanted to be coupled...)... Maybe it is just that, like RCR writes in her features, MLCers need to fell needed, to have someone to rescue.
Rescuing their spouses would be boring, right? Spouse? They are kids, they do not have spouses! ;D
A friendship that got out of hand...of course...they just do...when you're a teenager. I find it much worst when there are kids involved. But that shows how out there they are.
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AnneJ - thanks for sharing - it is bordering on hilarious - where do these OW get their 'script' from? How do they know how to be needy, validating, but controlling and using emotional blackmail all at the same time.
I have this txt from the OW. I unfortunately had to contact her directly earlier in the year regarding a Business boundary issue.
Her reply was ' I will not be drawn into your separation issues as it is for you and xxxxxxxx to resolve. I have already had legal advice and it may be time that this was sorted between you both with dignity for everyones sake'.
My contact had nothing to do with our 'separation' issues, it was purely business. Her seeking legal advice is interesting. She doesn't have a leg to stand on.
And as for 'it may be time that this was sorted between you both with dignity for everyones sake'? That's laughable. Whose sake? Hers only!!!
These OW are so TRANSPARENT and REVOLTING.
Poor darling - things are not working out the way she had it all planned. Things must have looked so promising to her in the beginning, when she was luring a very weak and unwell man away from his family. (Yes I know he is as much to blame, but I have no sympathy for these 'other people' at all).
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kikki, you're welcome. So sad that it is funny, really.
:)
where do these OW get their 'script' from? How do they know how to be needy, validating, but controlling and using emotional blackmail all at the same time.
Maybe we should ask them where they get their script and use it to get our spouses back from them! But, who wants to be needy and clingy and use emotional blackmail?...
Your husband's OW got legal advice regarding you and your husband? Nuts and none of her business. Ah! the dignity card, they play it so well... pfff...
Our spouses are the number one to blame/made responsible. They are the married ones. Shuold, at once, close the door for such people. Like, in many cases, they have done for years on end. Something gets to them and they go loony.
I found these other people are very sad and surely not very happy people. OW1 had another thing, in all those messages, she was a gossiper about everyone and gave advice to her friends about dumping boyfriends and girlfriends because they were not goo for them. Husband become a gossiper himself and also started giving advice to his friends, just in his case, he was trying to make this couple had had been dating for maybe one years, to save their relashionship. Just forgot to save his marriage...
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kikki, you're welcome. So sad that it is funny, really.
:)
where do these OW get their 'script' from? How do they know how to be needy, validating, but controlling and using emotional blackmail all at the same time.
I said it before... my Wife... is the OW... I have seen the txts... it is amazing to see it from the otherside. As I said in my first post... I think an alien ate my wife's brain. It is SOOO not here.... I have known her for 25 years. All I can see for sure... is they feel so piss poor about themselves and it gives them great self satisfaction of feeling of self worth that someone is willing to go to these lengths with them. That is all I can figure...
Me.
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All I can see for sure... is they feel so piss poor about themselves and it gives them great self satisfaction of feeling of self worth that someone is willing to go to these lengths with them. That is all I can figure...
Exactly, if someone is wiling to go to such lenghts with them, than, hey much be worthy. Given that they feel low and confused (my husband says that a few times when he is writing to OW1), someone willing to change their life from them, is all they need. My husband just forgot to read between the lines, well, no, just forgot to read the lines. If he had, he would had noticed that all OW1 wanted was to be able to live in the big city. She says it herself, so, my husband is a certified fool.
Funny how they see us as a problem and they put up with loads of rubish from the other person. And their fear of losing other person. Never mind losing a marriage, losing other person can not be. ::)
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Don't forget that our spouses have morphed into their alien opposites. Everything is opposite in the crisis.
Unfortunately because of that, we can't walk the path with them - they need dysfunction for that - and boy, do they succeed in finding it ;)
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All I can see for sure... is they feel so piss poor about themselves and it gives them great self satisfaction of feeling of self worth that someone is willing to go to these lengths with them. That is all I can figure...
Funny how they see us as a problem and they put up with loads of rubish from the other person. And their fear of losing other person. Never mind losing a marriage, losing other person can not be. ::)
Losing their marriage... Children... will the kids be ready to forgive? Respect in the community.. friends and how about self respect?
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[Losing their marriage... Children... will the kids be ready to forgive? Respect in the community.. friends and how about self respect?
Ah! the marriage means nothing! They need to be happy, to have a new life, to go their own way, to be by themselves (with other person on their arm, of course)... ::)
I don't have children so don't really know how it would be with them but, if a mum or dad was up to what my husband is...well...they would not be very happy with the situation. Guess it depends of how old they are and how much damage the MLCer has done/is doing.
Respect in the community also counts for nothing. Mine made sure he moved to another part of town, got a new set of unmarried and much younger friends and made everyone believe he only got together with OW1 after he no longer lived home. I'm not gonna bother tell otherwise.
it is all about them, them, them.
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Hrrm really... I would have thought that other peoples perceptions would have mattered a lot. It seems that all that is important to her. Am I doing well at my job. Do people think I am doing a good job? Do I look right.. am I saying the right thing. This is what I hear all the time. Which is odd to me... both my wife and I have never really cared what people at large thought about us.
Me.
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you are right, kikki, they've become their opposites. Will they manege to go back to their normal selves since they have lived as their opossite for a while, sometimes years?...
ziggee, your wife worries what people think of her? Well, in a sence they do, theu wanna be aproved in whatever they do, they look for validation, no matter how crazy the stuff they come up with. Hence, the validating other person. But they stop caring about the marriage, spouse, children, sometimes even the job. Many stop caring about relatives and friends.
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I have been told that OW no matter what or how bad it is with H and her she isn't going to walk away anytime soon.
She is going to fight to the bitter end for her man....OMG I thought I was going to be sick when I heard that.
Can't they just break up already- it is SO all about appearances!!
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Yip - I believe that's right crazy. When you're that desperate and needy and want 'power' at all costs, you're not going to walk away and have nothing.
Unless of course the OW has an even better piece of fodder lined up in the wings!
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crazy, yep, yep, OW will fight for "her" man until the end. Or until he stops giving her enough attention.
I have hundreds of pages of letters written between OW1 and husband and she is always talking about being there fighting for the both of them, how she will always fight for them... ::) ::)
Now, presume is OW2 fighting for "her" man... ::)
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ziggee, your wife worries what people think of her? Well, in a sence they do, theu wanna be aproved in whatever they do, they look for validation, no matter how crazy the stuff they come up with. Hence, the validating other person. But they stop caring about the marriage, spouse, children, sometimes even the job. Many stop caring about relatives and friends.
Oh big time... she worries more about what her boss and her new friends think more then anything else in the entire world. She wants to hear she is good enough... smart enough and fantastic enough... thanks george smiley... I dont understand where this comes from at all.
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after a while I realize that OW doesn't love H- he is a possession of hers, nothing more and as long as she can keep him away from me she is happy! Sickening...ewwww
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Oh big time... she worries more about what her boss and her new friends think more then anything else in the entire world. She wants to hear she is good enough... smart enough and fantastic enough... thanks george smiley... I dont understand where this comes from at all.
ziggee, you better get used to it. ::) they need to outshine everyone else, to be praised beyond sickness, to have all the attention on them. It comes from the crisis. It is a narcissistic thing a "I, I, I, I, I".
new friends...what type are her new friends? different from the ones the two of you would have? from another social circle? much younger? party goers?...they tend to get friends that fit their crisis self.
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ziggee, you better get used to it. ::) they need to outshine everyone else, to be praised beyond sickness, to have all the attention on them. It comes from the crisis. It is a narcissistic thing a "I, I, I, I, I".
new friends...what type are her new friends? different from the ones the two of you would have? from another social circle? much younger? party goers?...they tend to get friends that fit their crisis self.
Much younger and who are ignorant... not happy? Go find your bliss and get the heck out of there...
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Much younger and who are ignorant... not happy? Go find your bliss and get the heck out of there...
much younger and ignorant is always useful when in MLC. if never married or never in many years long relashionships, the better.
yes, not happy, go get their bliss somewhere else. it will take a while, sometimes a long while, until they find that the way to be happy is inside them.
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"Maybe we should ask them where they get their script and use it to get our spouses back from them! But, who wants to be needy and clingy and use emotional blackmail?..."
Not me! ;)
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Unfortunately I knew OW before and I wouldn't call us friends but we were friendly and she sure didn't seem the type to be with my H let alone be needy and clingy- do OW's change too even though they aren't in MLC?
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How can we be sure how people would react in a relationship?
Also, as this one for them is based on sneaking around and lies - I guess that would be enough to change the dynamics
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I knew OW1 before as well. In social events or dinner parties she just looked like a nice, sweet, caring girl, uncapable of any wrong did.
Agree with kikki, the nature of the relashionship will change its dynamics. So the people involved on it will change.
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True but hard to accept when you think you know someone!
It's funny how the OW's hate us- what have we done???
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I kind of knew the OW too, but not very well. At work functions she was cold, bland and colourless in personality. As quiet as a mouse.
Maybe that was just around me, as I hear she's very gushy and giggly around my H (or was in the early days). The only thing I have heard about her recently is that she's very negative. Maybe her true colours are appearing after all.
Why do they hate us? My H said a few months ago ' OW doesn't like you either, because you stop the boys from seeing me'
I said well, you'll have to tell her the truth then - your boys don't see you because they can't abide your behaviour!'
'Yeah you're right -I guess I should then' he said. 'She doesn't understand' :o
I also said 'of course she doesn't like me. I'm your wife and she's scr*wing my husband'
He didn't know what to say to that ........
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OW1 did not hate me, she was just jealous. OW2 I have no idea if she hates me or not.
If they hate us they are spending too much energy on us, so we are important to them. Well, of course we are, we are the spouse, they are not.
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OK so here is another question...I find myself sometimes obsessed about the OW and H breaking up. I am not concerned about the R as a whole cause I know it's bad but I am wondering if there is an average time as to their relationship lasting?? Crazy I know (that is why my name is what it is...LOL!)
I understand I shouldn't dwell on it but for some reason I have this bad habit of wondering when this is all going to end....not the MLC but the actual H and OW R!
I realize I have to give it time but they have been together for nearly 2 years!!!! I guess my hope is getting me all carried away.
Any advice??
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Crazy,
Advice is for you to stop watching. It will drive you crazy!
Does it really matter what the statistics are?
They could say that affairs last an average of 18 months - (just a number - not a real statistic) - your H's is beyond that - so what does that mean? Or they last 5 years? Again, what does that mean?
Unfortunately, like MLC, it lasts as long as it lasts. And, I'm just guessing, but in many situations the relationship is already over for months - before an actual split - as there may be an attempt to "make it work."
If you ask some of the "seasoned" LBS here - whose H's (and W's) have been involved in dead end relationships - long after there is any joy or fun - I would think they (the LBS) would say - stop watching or reading too much into their make ups and break ups. Eventually, most will end, as they are relationships created upon lies and deceit.....
Just let them be....leave them be. Focus on something else - like yourself - or you can and will drive yourself crazy.
Hugs,
Limitless
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Crazy,
Ill second LL here! she is absolutely giving you the BEST advice anyone can...let it be, dont even think about it, if at all possible, that is how you get sucked in over and over again...do for YOU!
hugs,
L
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Thanks L and LBOHG...that was a question I already knew the answer too but probably just need some encouragement.
Don't know what I would do without this site!!
:) :)
I am going to lock this thread if you want to start a new one I will link it up.
This one is at 304 posts.
EDIT: Thread continued at: http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=1701.0 -SS