Midlife Crisis: Support for Left Behind Spouses
Archives => Archived Topics => Topic started by: Rollercoasterider on November 07, 2011, 05:49:26 PM
-
MLC & Experts
What makes someone an expert in MLC?
- Being in one?
- Going through one?
- Being the spouse, caregiver or primary observer of someone in MLC?
- Having been the spouse, caregiver or primary observer of someone who wen through MLC?
- Studying MLC?
- Studying in an accredited academic program?
- All of the Above?
- None of the above?
- All of the above including the none of the above option?
- Some of the above?
- A different some of the above?
All of us and none of us are experts. I have studied MLC on my own—though I hold a graduate degree it is not in psychology or MLC; it’s in writing. The last (and only) Psychology class took was my junior year in High School—not college, High school.
Jim Conway, on the otherhand, has a PhD specializing in Adult Development and if I’m recalling correctly, his thesis was on midlife. He was completing his studies—or had just completed his studies—as he wrote Men in Midlife Crisis and went though his own MLC. He also has an M.A. in Psychology.
HeartsBlessing, like me, has studied MLC by observing her spouse and through observing others in forums. She studied Jim’s book and wrote a revised version of Jim’s 6 Stages of Midlife Crisis. Her version is a great improvement—in my opinion. She gave more examples and she’s a better writer.
Stayed is like HeartBlessing and my Self; she has been through her spouse’s MLC and her marriage is intact.
Jim’s perspective is from the MLCer, but his book targets both the MLCer as well as their spouse and his late wife Sally Conway wrote several books from the spouse’s perspective.
But are any of us experts?
I am no more an expert on your MLCer than the information you give me.
If the only information is that you think your spouse is in MLC and you contact me through this site, I will have a few assumptions.
I will assume you have read my definition of MLC and for you it is a marriage crisis—you aren’t a co-worker gossiping to me about that crazy guy in the next cubicle who you think is having a midlife crisis.
I will assume your spouse meets most of my Key Components of a Midlife Crisis.
- Depression—Covert & Overt
- The Urge to Abandon
- Infidelity
- Blaming or Projecting (Denial of Responsibility)
- Personality Changes or Mood Swings
But notice I said they will meet most, not all. They may meet all and they may not yet but will later. But those components that remain unmet open up a variety of pathways.
- Is the depression overt or covert? Those will manifest differently which will yiled different dynamics. How is the urge to abandon manifesting?
- Did the MLCer leave right away, leave and keep visiting, leave and come home a day later, move to the boat, move in with the alienator but say they don’t want a divorce…
- Is the alienator a fantasy person—not real at all, an emotional affair, a physical affair, married, in their own MLC, younger, older, the same age…?
I don’t know your MLCer. I glean tidbits of guesses from what you give me and that is all I have to go on. That certainly should not qualify me as an expert.
I have my agenda and purpose.
Stayed has hers.
OldPilot has his.
And so on…
When I post I try to balance. I try to support my moderators even while they are disagreeing with each other. I try to see all sides. That is one my main methods.
Stayed has a tough love style; set boundaries and protect yourself. StillStanding focuses on the Unconditionals.
Experts and Sources
Sometimes one person’s expertise may be in the work of someone else. Don’tGiveUp probably knows my online articles as well as I do OR BETTER. If we were to be tested on my online writings, I’d bet on him to score higher than I would unless the test is open book in which case I could use my computer to search all of my notes and my versions that have been revised since posting; basically I could cheat. His expertise is not limited to my writings or mine and Jim Conway’s, but we are sources.
I use Jim & Sally Conway, HeartBlessing, Jung, Murray Stein, James Hollis et al. as sources. My articles come from these and other written sources and even more from reading and participating in the forum. I’m not sitting on an island just thinking this stuff up.
Someone once asked me a question and told me what I could not use as an answer. I can’t recall the precise question, but it was something to do with Sweetheart and relationships and she said I could not use love as my answer. Huh? Love was the answer and she knew it. It is inappropriate to ask a question and refuse to accept a valid answer. Let each person choose their sources and be an expert in what it is they know.
An expert in evolution had better be familiar with Darwin, so it would be unfair to limit certain answers about evolution to nothing from Darwin. A New Testament Biblical expert probably knows a lot about the apostle Paul, it would be unfair to ask that person about the Book of Galatians and require Paul not be a part of his answer.
Tough Love & Unconditionals
Some of the things we need to be careful of are shoulds. Yes we should protect ourselves, protect our assets and protect our children. But what we should do to protect those things varies. It is sometimes appropriate to kick the MLCer to the curb when he moved home and continues to see the alienator or simply refuses to participate and work toward reconciliation. But being sometimes appropriate does not mean it is the best action in all situations. It is sometimes appropriate to allow an MLCer to move home when they ask, but not always.
Sometimes there are two separate groups.
Tough Love
Unconditionals
The Tough Lovers think the Unconditionalers are Doormats, attached or enabling.
The Unconditionalers think the Tough Lovers are too harsh, not compassionate, mean and judgmental.
And sometimes both groups are correct. But not always and maybe not even often.
If you must know, I fall toward the side of the Unconditionals. But I know that I need help balancing and so I need the Tough Love group to bring me back to the center.
But neither group has expertise in what to do in each situation. Sometimes advice that is opposite may be right—you could do this or that and whichver you choose might benefit your Stand or benefit your healing or benefit whatever needs benefitting. Sometimes it is more beneficial to lean to one side or the other and it is almost always a tightrope walk between.
-
Thanks for this Post RCR.
Tough Love & Unconditionals
Some of the things we need to be careful of are shoulds. Yes we should protect ourselves, protect our assets and protect our children. But what we should do to protect those things varies. It is sometimes appropriate to kick the MLCer to the curb when he moved home and continues to see the alienator or simply refuses to participate and work toward reconciliation. But being sometimes appropriate does not mean it is the best action in all situations. It is sometimes appropriate to allow an MLCer to move home when they ask, but not always.
Think his is very important. One size does not fit all and does not fit all the stages of the crisis.
Sometimes there are two separate groups.
Tough Love
Unconditionals
The Tough Lovers think the Unconditionalers are Doormats, attached or enabling.
The Unconditionalers think the Tough Lovers are too harsh, not compassionate, mean and judgmental.
And sometimes, a LBS jumps group. I was more the second in the beginning of my husband MLC and now I'm more the first. As an Unconditionalers I always had some traces of Tough Love, and as a Tough Lover I always have traces of the Unconditionals.
-
Thanks RCR.......
I think im an in between-er depending on were or what my h is doing or how he is acting... its a tightrope for
sure xxxxxxxxxxx
-
MLC & Experts
What makes someone an expert in MLC?
- Being in one?
- Going through one?
- Being the spouse, caregiver or primary observer of someone in MLC?
- Having been the spouse, caregiver or primary observer of someone who wen through MLC?
- Studying MLC?
- Studying in an accredited academic program?
- All of the Above?
- None of the above?
- All of the above including the none of the above option?
- Some of the above?
- A different some of the above?
For my $.02, I meet most if not all the criteria you listed and consider myself anything but an expert in this. My graduate degree is in Marriage and Family Therapy and my undergrad (as well as a few grad courses) is in Psychology and this goes against many of the common knowledge in many ways. The personality shift from how my W was to how she has been the past few months is not only perplexing but deeply disturbing. I shudder to think that I could become a person who selfishly neglects his family and mistreats those who love me, as well as disavowing my faith and destroying the respect my children have of me. I still deeply want my marriage to survive and will work toward that until I feel it is truly hopeless, but there is little in the academic studies I have had thus far that has prepared me to deal with this crisis.
Do I want to be an expert in this someday? Absolutely. I now know that to be a truly effective marriage counselor I HAVE to be able to take into account that someone may be going through something that is influencing them to make the rash decisions that would send most LBSes running for the hills. Had I not found this site and LifeTwo, and had not had the resources of doctorate-level psychologists to look to, I might well have already been divorced and moving on with my life. As it stands, I am stuck in that I don't know how I could live with myself if I did give up on her while she was going through this. I certainly would hope she would stand for me were the tables reversed, although knowing what I do I would not want her to suffer as I have. Perhaps one day my story will have a happy ending and my family will live again, but whether it does or not I still want to go forth and help others save their families.
I work with children and when I first entered the field I was a believer in the saying "If you save just one child, then it was worth all your efforts." Now I've changed my motto to "If I save just one child, it's not nearly enough." I feel the same way about marriages and families.
-
I think that, unfortunately, there isn't enough known about - nor enough attention placed upon MLC - in the real world. So, there aren't too many experts. Even though the MLCer may act crazy - the MLCer is sane.
Just about everything that I have read - pretty much says the same thing. There is no cure - it cannot be avoided, nothing that the LBS can do about it.....etc. etc., etc. Like the common cold, the only cure is time. (a whole lotta endless time).
And, yes, there are two schools of thought on this board (and probably others, as well) - Tough love and the Unconditionals. I have really tried the Unconditional and, honestly, I am pretty discouraged as my sitch has only gotten worse. (Even though I had been forwarned that it would get worse before it gets better). I think there are quite a few of us wondering actually when the "get better" part happens.
Do I think my sitch would have "gotten better" with Tough Love? No. Honestly, at this point, I don't think it really matters. H is deep, deep in Replay. It is said that later the MLCer will remember that how the LBS treated him/her. I guess I will just have to see if this ends up to be the case.
We LBS walk a very fine tightrope....showing Unconditional Love, while avoiding the doormat role......and Standing up for ourselves through Tough Love.....equally avoiding the role of the Woman Scorned.
Maybe we are all contributing to the beginning of MLC expertise - by sharing our stories here on this board?
No we are not experts.....but we have all live it, don't we?
Limitless
-
Lol, I have friends who now refer to me as a "MLC expert" and say that they are definitely coming to me in the future if it ever pops up in their lives. I think compared to the majority of the general population I would be an expert. I have been avidly reading, researching, and documenting my own experiences for the last year and a half. But I am also a continual student, with so much still to learn both in my relationship with H and also from the many wise people here on the board. I really feel that I am meant to learn as much as possible about this condition so that in time I can help guide others down the road. I hope that I will be guiding them from the comfort of a restored relationship with H. I hope we all are able to reach that place in time.
-
I don't consider myself an expert or indeed vastly knowledgeable about MLC. Having others on the forum and indeed RCR herself give advice is why I joined the forum in the first place. Perhaps some of the advice does not work in my situation but one thing I know for sure, the advice given is the best I will find anywhere and comes from experience and research.
I want to get through my journey and come out the other end with my marriage intact and if I can help others by documenting what I am going through then that is fantastic.
-
Limitless,
I agree with you here:
We LBS walk a very fine tightrope....showing Unconditional Love, while avoiding the doormat role......and Standing up for ourselves through Tough Love.....equally avoiding the role of the Woman Scorned.
This balance on this tightrope is sooooooooo very difficult. Most of the time I feel I am being the doormat - not for my h. because he doesn't see it, but for everyone else watching. So, I definitely do not feel I am anywhere close to being an expert on anything, not that I want to be. However, I do want to help others if I am given that privilege.
-
Seeing as I have been tagged a "TOUGH LOVE" stander, I would like to take this opportunity to say, I actually believe the TOUGH LOVE is for ourselves. Believe me, I was not tough whatsoever when my h first dropped this on me. I wish I had been, as much, much less damage would have been done to me, if I had been. Unfortunately, there is no way of preventing how we react on discovery, it is simply part of a very painful process, with only one way out which is through it.
I wish I had adopted the Tough Love stance much sooner. Once I finally found that stance, I was able to detach, step away from the "raw pain", depersonalize a very personal situation and look within myself, without feeling BOUND or OBLIGATED to my MLCer. Believe it or not, having been married or almost 30 years, I felt VERY OBLIGATED to give my husband the "benefit of the doubt". I actually felt I OWED it to him, to look after him, just like I would have if he were physically ill. I discovered feeling obligated was not helpful, that this was something that needed a fresh, new way of being looked at. Feeling obligated/bound, simply restricted and prevented the healing that was required in order to truly evaluate the situation. As unloving as my opinion is, I believe making decisions based on cold reality were more honest and true. Wrapping myself up in the "unconditional love" concept, prevented honest, open contemplation. Clear headed thinking.
Sorry, but I believe this is an opportunity to rebuild your life, with or without the spouse. Admitedly, I am not a DIE HARD "save the marriage" at all costs. I just don't believe ANYTHING is that hard and fast. To me, this nightmare was dropped at our feet, we owe it to ourselves to look closely and decide if we REALLY wish to remain married. We certainly didn't start this mess, whether it could have been us, just as much as our spouses, we will never know, what happened has happened. WE didn't start it but we do have a say and a lot of control in the outcome. We owe it to ourselves to at least EXAMINE this possibility.
In order to come to terms with what was happening in our lives, I had to FREE myself from the vows, obligations, history we shared. Once I was able to detach, then I was better able to move more towards the center. As you said RCR you were more a Unconditional but you NEEDED the comments the opinions of the "tough love" to move to the center. Believe me, I am no less centered then you are, even if it is the other way around... comments from the UNCONDITIONALS to soften my stance.
I happen to believe it is easier to soften up, then it is to harden up. Of course that is probably because my nature leans more towards, "get up you fool, the wolves will get you, if you lay there". I expect for a softer more compassionate type, the reverse is easier.
I do not see myself as an EXPERT... not in the least. I have NO MORE IDEA what anybody else's MLCer will or will not do, then they do! Nor have I ever pretended I did! I wish, then I really could help. The only thing I know for sure is the only person we can control is OURSELVES and we should always try to be true to ourselves. Our priority should always be to sort OURSELVES out first, as that is the only way, wise choices and decisions can be made. However one does it... is totally up to themselves. Which is something we do control!
hugs Stayed
-
Well, as many of you know..I am totally in the Unconditional category...and that is why Stayed's tough love approach has been vital to my healing journey. I have no idea how tough love will affect the MLCer, I have no idea how Unconditional love will...but when I slide into my panic/dissociating/crisis.....the tough love approach has managed to get me back on my feet again.
Actually Stayed and DGU have been pretty "tough" on me at times.
Mostly, the support of this site has allowed me to get on with my life. It is only in the past few months that I feel alive again..lately I have been thinking, two years of my life were spent in tears, not able to sleep, not able to eat....2 years I feel have been "lost".....I know, I've grown and learned things but that's a long time to feel so awful.
I value what people say here...my only concern is the few times that people turn on one another.. respect is necessary and even when I think that I am right and my way is the only way..I can learn from other's points of views.
-
So right Xyzcf. We all have so much we can learn from each other, from our spouses, from ourselves. I think that if we truly walk the path that is presented to us, we do become experts. Not necessarily of MLC as a whole, but in our personal experience with it. And when it comes down to it, even the "experts" won't necessarily have more insight into our personal situations, but they can certainly provide guideposts and plenty of information along the way.
-
I have used the word "expert" in a few posts I have written. I may refrain from further use of it because I am not interested in getting caught up on it. A word that would better fit what RCR provided for me is "credibility". Like many LBS, because of the cycling of my MLCer, there were times after bomb drop that I questioned whether it was truly MLC.
My counselor was the first to use the term MLC almost immediately after bomb drop. Then I read Conway's book "Women in MLC". I then found a couple of different websites and ultimately settled on this one, partially due to my desire for a Christian persective. I do read the archives on the Midlife Dimensions website from time to time, but I have never posted there.
I remember the day the credibility of the articles on this website shot through the roof for me. It was about five months after bomb drop. My wife had filed....and then continuously cycled after filing. One day she was not feeling well and did not go to work. She called me over to tell me she was going to finalize the divorce. Basically the last thing she said to me was that I did not fight hard enough for her. I was puzzled because in the same conversation, she thanked me for many of the things I had done for her over the past few weeks and the discussions we had.
I was later reading RCR's article on Hoovering. Here's the part that I couldn't believe I was reading. As I told a couple of the other LBS that I know, it was like RCR had overheard the conversation.
"When he was feeling guilty, he told me I didn't fight hard enough for him.
That is classic hoovering. He tried to give you his guilt and make you feel at fault when he did not want to come home. This gives you a glimmer of hope that if you fight for him he may come home, thereby sucking you back into your former pursuit."
I had also read the article on Pursuit and Distance. I was not yet sold at the time, because I thought pursuing was the right thing to do. After my amazement at the information on Hoovering, I also decided at that time I would no longer pursue. I was going to let her have her crisis and allow her to control contact. I have stuck to that since that time.
The symptoms below from RCR also added to the credibility. My MLCer's Urge to Abandon was sudden and strong, and I was able to put a check by everything on this list.....either through a behavior or something that was said.
•Depression—Covert & Overt
•The Urge to Abandon
•Infidelity
•Blaming or Projecting (Denial of Responsibility)
•Personality Changes or Mood Swings
RCR is also the first author who informed me of MLC causation being from a lack of emotional development, childhood issues or a similar phrase.....although Conway does call MLC the "second adolescence".
So I will use the term credibility.
And yes, I do know the articles pretty well. I think it's hard not to know them when they have so accurately described what my MLCer has said and done over a two year period.....I think others have found the same thing to be true.
I appreciate the amount of time, effort and research RCR has put into this. It has made a difference for me, and has allowed me to make a difference in the lives of others. For that, I am humbly grateful.
-
I know that when people first arrive here they are in shock from their bomb drops, and asking lots questions is normal (and a good thing!) but there is a wealth of information on this site alone, between RCR's blog posts and articles and the links in the sticky posts.
This isn't like high school where we can crib off of each other's notes or get someone to do our homework for us. We can provide support to each other for those rough times and BDs, and we can give advice (many of us give great advice!), but there's no better way we can help ourselves than by reading and learning the material.
-
Well I think that RCR has really hit the nail on the head with this thread and I applaud her efforts.
I just re-read her post and could not agree more with how she sizes up the "opposing camps"
on the forum.
I feel privileged to be considered in the group of this discussion and I must think about which "camp"
I am a member of.
I think RCR's point is that we must be in both camps, and not one or the other is right or wrong.
We are all experts on our own marriage and must take what we learn and apply it to our sich.
I agree that we are all FIXERS and CONTROLLERS, sometimes this comes out in what we post.
However I have seen a tremendous amount of love and caring here.
I think the hardest thing for me is looking at myself and trying to recognize what are the REAL things
that I need to FIX about myself and really try to work on.
I know that it is NOT what my MLC'er is spouting about, but that is not to say that I did not
contribute to the downfall of my marriage.
This stuff is VERY hard and nothing is as simple or easy as it sounds.
I look forward to reading what everyone else has to say on this subject.
-
OP,
I have to say that you hit something in me when you stated that we need to be in both camps.
That's exactly it, isn't it? One of those "secrets to the universe" type of things - that is really so simple, yet so difficult to do.
It's all about moderation? Not allowing yourself to be too far left or too far right. Both are extremes - and, with each situation we find ourselves in life (some not having ANYTHING to do with MLC) - there are different strategies we can employ. Sometimes, Tough Love is needed....other times...Unconditional Love. Actually, isn't Tough Love part of Unconditional Love? Loving someone enough to tell them what they need to hear - instead of what they want to hear. Loving someone enough to let them go...and allow them to make their own decision - right or wrong. And, who are we to decide what is right or wrong for them?
This is really a good discussion.
Limitless
-
In an era where everything is labeled, we as human beings tend to feel that we could fix things ourselves just because we have labeled them and started accepting these experiences as "Symptoms", despite numerous proof that in the end "Nothing is Certain (except aging, death and Taxes)". "Tough Love" or "Unconditional" approach will not guarantee anything... "Detachment" is probably the most important weapon we have for ourselves.
Think about this: What really makes it difficult to detach? Is it because we were provided with the "stages of MLC", most of us want to know what our MLCers are doing right now to find out what stage they are in? Whatever happened to 2x4's when someone seem forget to detach?
-
It's all about moderation? Not allowing yourself to be too far left or too far right. Both are extremes - and, with each situation we find ourselves in life (some not having ANYTHING to do with MLC) - there are different strategies we can employ. Sometimes, Tough Love is needed....other times...Unconditional Love. Actually, isn't Tough Love part of Unconditional Love? Loving someone enough to tell them what they need to hear - instead of what they want to hear. Loving someone enough to let them go...and allow them to make their own decision - right or wrong. And, who are we to decide what is right or wrong for them?
This pretty much sums it up!
hugs Stayed
-
I think the hardest thing for me is looking at myself and trying to recognize what are the REAL things
that I need to FIX about myself and really try to work on.
I know that it is NOT what my MLC'er is spouting about, but that is not to say that I did not
contribute to the downfall of my marriage.
This stuff is VERY hard and nothing is as simple or easy as it sounds.
I look forward to reading what everyone else has to say on this subject.
This might be a mini-hijack because it has nothing really to do with this thread, but I totally beg to differ on this. And I seldom comment anymore because I know I am in a different place, but I feel very strongly that this belief can be severely detrimental to fragile newbies, or to anyone. Regardless of how imperfect any of us are, and I mean that, we are all worthy of love, compassion and grace. So, I find it difficult when people tell newbies that they should use this time to work on themselves. I think as opposed to WORKING on themselves, I think most people here need to REDISCOVER LOVE for themselves, and that involves embracing our imperfections.
I still need to lose ten pounds, I eat poorly, I am impatient, sometimes judgmental, I suffer from low self-esteem and I am very insecure about my social self. I can come across as a know-it-all, and I love a good debate so much, I can scare and intimidate people. I am sarcastic, blunt, and honest to a fault. However, I am also loyal to a fault, I care deeply about people, try my best to live by high moral and ethical standards and truly do no harm. I am a great cook, a good friend, pretty darn smart and giving of my self and my time. There will ALWAYS be stuff I can work on, and I have many assests, but none of that mattered in the downfall of my marriage.
Marriage is a partnership--a choice and a contract. No one is perfect, we all have flaws and people do change. So, like any relationship, marriage is a constant negotiation. A marriage fails when one or both people stop negotiating. I have a lot of things that I need to improve about myself, but I don't think any of them contributed to the downfall of my marriage. My perfectionism and OCD tendencies bother me and my kids but he actually liked that about me and when I started to relax a little more that bothered him, but it was so much better for the rest of us. There is a popular notion in organizational improvement that when there is something wrong in an organization, it is not the PEOPLE, but the PROCESS. If something needed to be fixed in a marriage, it was not the people, but the DYNAMIC--and you can't fix that alone. I know a LOT of very broken and damaged people who live in very successful marriages.
And I think that telling people to work on themselves causes them to focus on the WAS and the OP too much. In order to FIX something you have to know what was wrong. But the other key thing people always say here is that it is not about you. So you see the contradiction? And it constantly reinforces the notion that we need FIXING. I am a far healthier person than the 24-year-old my H married, and I resent any hint that the failure of my marriage means that I need fixing. Not that I don't need fixing, but I was not the one who walked away.
I do believe that there can be amicable divorces--which is not a failure but an agreement to dissolve that partnership. When both people have tried to negotiate and decide, with love, that they no longer can make it work, then I do believe there can be a "good divorce." But that is not the case in most situations here. In legal contracts, there are generally exit provisions--and if either party considers an exit, there is generally a notification and an opportunity to cure--after which, the contract can be terminated. When one party leaves without following the rules, that is breach and it is not the fault of the party being breached.
Anyway, I know I am in the minority on a lot of things here, but I think no matter which camp you fall in, it is very hard to "stand" and not focus too much on the WAS and the OP, and what YOU did wrong, when in reality, what most people here really need to do is pick up the pieces of their beautiful broken selves and get back to the business of living and enjoying EVERYTHING they do have, which is considerable since in the objective scheme of things, they lost ONE thing. And it is vital to separate out our selves and our assets from our enmeshed and co-dependent lives. That means realizing that you may be losing money, but you are gaining independence, and so it goes for EVERY single thing we lose in this process. When I read the threads where people get so angry and "stuck" it is all because they are focusing on the person who walked away and the OP, and not truly living their best lives now.
I know this is my lonely soap box, and I will get off it now, but this is truly NOT about us. Change if you must, but that is no guarantee you will get your spouse back, or have a successful R. So the best thing to do is just LOVE. Love yourself for who you are, your family and friends for being there and all the beauty around you in whatever form it comes as long as you can. We all know life can change on a dime, so make every day worth it--you are all worthy of love and acceptance just the way you are! Love and light, Lisa
-
LisaLives ~ Thank you for posting that. I totally agree with you. I keep reading to work on myself, change ect. and I know my
marriage did NOT fall apart because of me. My H is having a MLC and I feel it is a severe one at that. I also read that his crisis is not about me and all about him. I too have found what I read to be very contradicting. I am glad to know that I am not the only one who feels this way.
I also know that when he blames me for things, they are the most rediculous thing I have ever heard. They aren't even reasons that one would abandon his family over, like one of his reasons was we didn't like the same TV or radio stations. :o :o I know I am a very kind, warm hearted and giving person. I am also very trust worthy and out going. The reasons my H has given are lies that he has made up to jusitfy what he has done to his family. I am not saying I am perfect as no one is. But my H and my family were my life and I did everything for him. His reasons for leaving, well even if they were true, it's nothing I could change about myself.
NB
-
Very interesting to read RCR.
Since I am not an expert on anything in this world, I might be more likely to apply expert status to you, Stayed, OP, DGU, HB...and a few others. Regardless of where any of you are in the MLC situation, you all seem to just know your stuff and that could be either the writings of Conway, others, each other...whatever. But with that said, experts don't and can't have the answer to everyone, all the time, 100% accurately.
I liken it to going to a doctor. They have far more information and education and experience than their patient but what it still comes down to is trial and error more often than not. Though people expect to be cured/fixed immediately, that rarely happens. You try one medication and if it doesn't work, you try the next. You take into account the patient's history and needs but ultimately, the patient will heal when the patient will heal and the patient more often than not, must be pro-active in their healing as well. To assume you can just show up at the doctor and get fixed is unreasonable in every circumstance.
I try to impart the wisdome I have gained in the last few years as a way of paying it forward. But I have a long way to go and much to learn and so I look to all of you for guidance. I don't expect any of you to fix me, my spouse or my situation. Instead, I expect myself to be adult enough to realize that I'm at a salad bar of ideas and advice and I as an adult need to decide what goes into my salad and what I may leave for next time or disregard all together. If I can't do that, I have no business being in an adult relationship frankly.
I don't think the two camps are all that different. I don't see anyone here who regularly advises acting as the doormat. Nor do I see the tough love proponents as being overly strident. I think if they were, they probably would not be standing or still married. I think it is a healthy balance quite frankly and I'm glad to hear all the opinions.
Sometimes I need to read of those who stand for so long...it reminds me of my deep love for my H. And sometimes I need a kick in the pants and someone to tell be to buck up and stand up for myself.
All I can say is I owe you all a huge debt of gratitude. You give and give and give. You re-live painful times or you bring the focus back to your current pain. You ask nothing in return. You provide a wealth of researched and anecdotal information. You welcome every person into the group. I see you all as wise and selfless and incredibly decent, humane people. "Experts" or not doesn't really matter....
-
Lisa's quote:
"Change if you must, but that is no guarantee you will get your spouse back, or have a successful R. So the best thing to do is just LOVE. Love yourself for who you are, your family and friends for being there and all the beauty around you in whatever form it comes as long as you can. We all know life can change on a dime, so make every day worth it--you are all worthy of love and acceptance just the way you are!"
Amen. I've written about the "change" aspect many times, in fact just yesterday to someone else who was saying they didn't understand why they should change. I tried to change. It went unnoticed or picked on as well. And all it did for me was turn me into someone I wasn't and didn't want to be. For what. Nothing.
Truth is, my own MLC H has told me many times it isn't ME, it is HIM and I didn't do anything wrong. What he found wrong about me when this whole thing started were things he has since admitted never were wrong..they were just ME...and were things he once adored. There wasn't anything SO wrong with me, there wasn't anything SO wrong with our marriage. The problem is HIS. Was and Is.
I have changed though but not because I wanted to. I am not so co-dependent and I more of an individual, less of a team of two. Is that good? I guess so but this isn't the way I would have gone about changing any of that given the choice because the other changes to me and my relationship are too high a price. My marriage will probably not be as close and trusting as it once was. I will never be as selfless towards him as I once was. I will never see him through those same adoring eyes. I didn't need to find out he wasn't perfect. I knew that. So again, is that good? Not where I come from.
-
I agree with Lisa on a lot of points. I also think that, whilst it is undeniable that I have faults that were evident in my marriage, so did H, but even after BD and discovering his infidelity I was willing to FORGIVE him his failings and work WITH him to keep the marriage together. It was H who was unable to accept the faults he perceived in me, not the other way around. Therefore the idea that it does not take one person to end a marriage to me is actually false. I could "work on me" til the cows come home and I will never be perfect and it will never guarantee that someone will choose to stay with me. So I agree the biggest lesson that I have taken from this site is detachment. I can never and will never be able to control another person and so any changes that I make in me, are for me and me alone. Not for anyone else or for some idea that maybe if I'd done this, or said that, H would not have had a crisis and run away. I genuinely feel that while I made mistakes (of course, I am human) I did the best that I could in the relationship that I had with the person that he was (or that I thought he was).
I was worthy of love when H met me, when he married me, when he decided 10 years later that he still wanted to start a family with me. Of course, time and circumstances change and so do people - to a degree. But I am, in essence, still the same 18 year old that he fell in love with all those years ago. And that was good enough for him then (flaws and failings included) and for a LONG time after. He was not perfect either, but I did not run off with postman and dump him because after 16 years I suddenly decided he had no right to have any flaws or to have any expectations from me.
In his crisis, he decided that I was not really what he needed but I refuse to let his idea of me be the guiding principle in how I live my life anymore. These days I am changing, but I am working on the things I want to change (regardless of whether they are the things that bothered H - because his views of what were wrong with me were often crazy, would change on a dime and were strongly related to what he wanted to believe - honestly one of my big flaws was that I was too black and white and couldn't see the "grey areas" - that was for taking the position that infidelity is morally wrong). Agree or disagree with LL, I think it was a very caring and heartfelt post!
-
I think at times we might focus too much on the meaning of specific words or phrases. Below is RCR's article Working on Myself.
I don't find it to be confusing, I find it to be more in reference to helping the LBS cope and experience things while the MLCer is also going through their changes.
The LBS did not cause the crisis, so it's helpful information about things for the LBS to consider.....and it's not really about fixing anything from what I can tell.
http://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/self-focus_who-are-you_why-should-i-work-on-myself.html
-
S&D,
Another AMEN to your post.
And wow, I heard EXACTLY the same thing...that I was too black and white. And I'm not.
Wierd.
-
Hello :)
This is such a fundamental discussion, to me its not just which camp, both or even neither, its how we can often displace our frustrated feelings of wanting to fix on other LBS, thats where the real danger lies. I have probably done that......
Trouble is we see each others sitches with what we think is a clearer eye and other situations can provoke deep feelings and reactions, perhaps of frustration or love or even downright crossness and that is when we can stray into do as I say territory, and from that we can stray into judging.
I am not an expert especially not in my own sitch. I am an expert in other areas which can flow into the LBS experience, violence, abuse, worthlessness, stuff which I deal with everyday and have suffered myself. There are LBS on here who have had that experience and we need to be mindful of that.
So I believe strongly that the LBS journey is the most important, the journey of self discovery and awareness, the unlooked for gift from this.
I think tough love is appropriate in certain circumstances, and unconditional love is the backdrop to the tough love, the two are not mutually exclusive or at least they don't need to be or should be.
The operative word is love.
That applies to ourselves too, we take the journey and sometimes we need as part of that to ask ourselves tough questions, about who we are, how have we got here, what are our own issues big or small.
How did those things impact on us and then on our marriage, and how did our spouses issues intertwine with those. How do we learn to be truly ourselves first and potential spouse later. We should never change for someone, only for ourselves. But its the hardest task to do.
Most importantly how do we deal with our fears, whatever they may be and how do we let go of them? because it is those fears which hold us back from detachment I feel.One of the deepest heartaches I hear from LBS is their own lack of love for themselves. Their fear of facing themselves and their lack of self esteem, their fragility.
Grace, forgiveness and agape are what we should strive for in ourselves to ourselves and for each other.
That is my focus when I mentor, the LBS journey and the experience.
Often the way a LBS deals with their spouse starts off as part of an old script or habitual way of behaving and thinking, later as they blossom and grow into themselves the old ways of interacting with the spouse become barriers to their self development, not things to try to hang onto nor for some LBS should they even try.
Then I may question more deeply and challenge why they react or think the way they do, not to prove me right or wrong but to provoke the thoughts and hopefully deeper reflection.
There are some situations I truly believe where the LBS for their own sake may be better not standing for their spouse.
They are rare but they exist.
The danger is we can create a mythology here, for example you should never ask your spouse to leave, you should somehow try to be Madonna and take all bad behaviour and say nothing.
No I don't agree, there is no one size fits all program for this and if there was it could become quite dangerous.
RCR has written some amazing articles for this site and I read and reread them but they are not end points of knowledge they are launching pads for further knowledge to add to what is already known.
How can we be prescriptive to each other and ourselves. We can't. We take responsibility for our own actions and we shouldn't shoulder responsibility for anyone else's.
Anyone presuming themselves to be an expert are firstly wrong, and secondly in danger of over influencing vulnerable people.
Thats what drew me to this site RCR was not claiming anything, but open to share what she knew personally and from extensive reading and her own conclusions from that and her own beliefs etc. Thats what I hope we can all do for and with each other.
Now its up to us to fill in the gaps. But with the unconditionals and a bit of toughness.
And I've rambled....on my third glass of wine :)
Much love. xxxxxxxxxxxxx
-
I think at times we might focus too much on the meaning of specific words or phrases. Below is RCR's article Working on Myself.
I don't find it to be confusing, I find it to be more in reference to helping the LBS cope and experience things while the MLCer is also going through their changes.
The LBS did not cause the crisis, so it's helpful information about things for the LBS to consider.....and it's not really about fixing anything from what I can tell.
http://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/self-focus_who-are-you_why-should-i-work-on-myself.html
I agree; there is nothing about "working on yourself" that precludes, or excludes, loving yourself. In fact, I would make that one of the first things on the proverbial to-do list.
-
Great post xyz (and can I have a glass? ;) ;))
-
Yes, now instead of saying, "somewhere in the world it's time for cocktails, so I can have one too," I can say, "well Voyager is probably drinking wine and she should not have to drink alone!" That is what I call working on ME!
-
Yes, now instead of saying, "somewhere in the world it's time for cocktails, so I can have one too," I can say, "well Voyager is probably drinking wine and she should not have to drink alone!" That is what I call working on ME!
Just to be clear, the changes that we make are NOT to get our MLC'er back, they are for us.
I totally agree that we need to learn to love ourselves, LL maybe that is THE CHANGE that we need to make.
I think your whole post agreed with what I was saying even though you said that you disagreed.
And of course if you want to drink wine for your changes that is OK with me too.
Of course I am not sure that will help you to lose 10 lbs, which oh BTW is not the change I was referring to either.
:) :) :)
-
The changes that we are making should not be to "get him/her back"...the MLC is not about the marriage but our child inside has trouble understanding that sometimes. "Live your life as though he is not coming back" is one of the first words of advice that is often given.
I have mentioned this today on someone's post....I feel like I lost 2 years of my life.....even though I did things.....in my humble opinion..it was a waste.
That was my reaction to the end of our marriage, the rejection, abandonment etc..
The changes I needed to make were to allow me to feel alive again..that word alive seems to come up frequently for me because I truly felt dead. Life was "tasteless", each day a struggle to get up and face the nothingness of the day.
Any major change in life requires us to adjust and adapt and since I do not like change...this has been a huge lesson.
I am going to disagree about what we do or do not say to newbies, again. At some point, they are going to have to meet new friends, discover new interests and take care of themselves.....any "advice" is usually given from a place of love and caring..trying to introduce some ideas that by experience, we know help..help to recover, help to find our own self worth again. Why is this such a controversial issue?
When a women finds out she is pregnant, I would counsel her immediately on the things that she needs to do...stop smoking, avoid alcohol, eat healthy foods, monitor for any symptoms of gestational diabetes or preeclampsia not because I expect these things to happen..but because she needs awareness and education....so in the middle of the night, when a newbie comes onto the forum, she/he can hear that how she is feeling is "normal" for most of us....I have seen the progress made by some of the newbies..how quickly they get it...I wish I had some of that information in my first year as I would have been further along perhaps in my journey....
-
I LOVE this thread!! I completely agree with Lisa and really needed to hear that to understand and make sense of alot of the advice that I've received. This is my W's problem to deal with and fix, not mine. I didn't cause it and can't cure or control it. If my M ends because of this then I will not hold myself at fault. I have the door open for her to return and if she chooses not to then so be it. I take no blame for the breakdown of a good marriage if it's due to psychological and developmental issues that stem from even before we met. It's like if she came down with a hereditary heart problem, I would not blame myself or beat myself up for it. That would make me insane.
I also totally agree with Bon and the others who have clarified what changing during this time means. I have just recently started to really detach, and the main reason for that is that I have been getting back to being ME. I spent several hours playing a video game with S6 over the weekend and found that I was able to completely get my mind off of everything for awhile. I've also been able to get into work alot more, and taking pride and investing in that is also a big part of who I am. This past week has really been great for me and I now realize that it's because I've found a way to be me DESPITE all the changes forced on me, and that makes me realize that I will be ok. Like most of us, I lost alot of weight early on and completely changed alot of things about me, but they were not me but rather coping strategies to deal with the trauma I was experiencing. Now, I'm back and it's the first feelings of happiness I have had since BD. I think these changes will be permanent because, like I said, they ARE the real me and not a me that I created for someone else's benefit. Perhaps it will be the changes I have made to be true to myself that will make me attractive to my W again someday, but if not then at least if I find someone else that is attracted to me then it will be for the right reasons.
Voyager, may I invite myself to enjoy a margarita along with your wine? I would be honored!!
-
I see the LBS needs to work on themselves not as a way of bringing the spouse/marriage back, but as a way for us to sort ourselves out after such traumatic experience. Also, would include learning to love ourselves in working on ourselves.
Of course whatever flaws we had did not cause the MLC. And we can’t buy that much into what a totally confused MCLer tells us. Being it about all those terrible flaws we had (that we already had some 3«20 or 30 years ago and never were that much of a problem) or that everything, or a lot, in our marriage was wrong (again, they only find that out after some 20 or 30 years…right?...NOT!).
We do change with BD and a spouse in MLC. The situation on itself brings many changes upon us.
I thing a read of kikki’s thread Just in case you thought there was any doubt - it's not about us!! http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=1771.0 that deal with brain function and how all the brain function are impaired/unbalanced during MLC can provide some useful food for though. It is a more clinically approach on the subject (DGU is having some nice arguments with me there :) ) but I think it can give us another vision of the subject.
-
Wow as Limitless says a wonderful discussion!!
My H ticks all RCR's box's and the articles as DGU says have to me been invaluable! and are a benchmark that my H sits alongside its spooky!!!
I have thought about where I am in this situation which camp I am in and I think this ?
I am many facets of me and whatever is happening with me it involves the present and the future
MY life is me, now and what I do now that affects me in the future then this applied to
Me
Me and my children
Me and everything else friends/extended family/work colleagues-clients etc.
Me and my MLCer
So which camp I am in differs dependent on who I am dealing with !
Just me and I have to be strong and disciplined (tough and controlled as I run my own business and no time for falling apart) - except in the car on the way home at the beginning. and then every once and a while)
Me with my children ... I am tough and in control but love them unconditionally and (don't involve them in this situation - they are old enough to be hurt but old enough to have to deal with this in their own way - there to pick up the pieces and help them to understand what I have learnt that their Dad is not in a good enough place to be the man they need and so unconditional love and tough love rolled into one
Me and everyone else .., I am the most honest as I veer from unconditional love for and acceptance of the process to being shattered emotionally and physically 'done'. Friends are more appreciate and understanding and help me see different perspectives and help me learn to trust myself - my intuition - my instinct - but at times I need a push and jolt and a reality check.
Me and my MLCer well this is the hardest one .., I'm mainly in the unconditional camp in regard to how I feel about him, for now, but have sometimes at Monster stage and me not getting MLC process (but think the tough love now is only used FOR ME, when its the last straw It has to be really thought through WHY ? because the effort it takes me to do this has a detrimental effect on ME! so it needs to be because there is NO Other way - the only way is to be tough.
I work all the time to be as strong as I can be, not all the time do I achieve this but its more on track these days Yeah!!!
MLC made me in the early days hate the me I was, because he made me feel unable to be me not by trying to control him but by trying to fix him. help him, love him, care for him .... etc..
I know know that this is his crisis so he needs to find his own way out of it .. help when I can if it feels like NOT perusing, give truth darts when again it feels needed.
It was all about him and it is still but to a less extent - all about him (I can see the wheels of Mid life stages turning) but I am not in his life daily; I am, I am sure (have proof) in his thoughts as he is in mine. But only time will tell so .. I live my life and take every day at one day at a time.
I know I will be fine. We all will be if we detach and let life happen ..
My H owes me a lot and I owe him too but I didn't marry him to notch up credits for payment at a future date so if he doesn't want me for what ever reason/s then its better he isn't with me ...
I have looked at me, I have changed, I see people as they are and not what I hoped they could be, I don't try and fix them.
My tough love towards my H has been tough to him when I need to keep my integrity and self respect intact;
I have control only over me, he has only control over himself; but how we both act NOW and in the FUTURE will determine the future of me and him as separate people and me and him as ????
whatever
MLCer needs to work this out for themselves - that we are worth the sacrificing of their ego's and taking the courage to say I made the biggest mistake ..... and risk us saying - yes you did but my life is better without you?
And I think all MLCer need to do this ... because then they have put everything on the line for their chance of happiness and found out the answers and they now know the truth and its now time to fix things - they need to do it again - and risk the chance of failure? with us, to try and achieve happiness with a full heart instead of a closed one.
If they can do this they will be OK with or without us and that is my only goal for my MLCer.
It is what needs to be done for equilibrium to be restored and a new beginning to begin again IMO
new life, new marriage, new //
So what camp am I in ?? neither in totality BUT who is?? I'm as OP says and Limitless say have a foot in both at the same time.
But think I want to add another camp The Trust Camp
.
The ones that accept the situation, believe in the process of MLC and appreciate the time (Yes OP finally getting this) and trust the outcome - that whatever will be, it will be the best for you. (Think of Doris Day and Que Sera Sera (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZbKHDPPrrc)????
So when I post I try to help by putting myself where the person is I am posting too and not make it about how I feel re: my situation - VERY hard to do I just said I try too but when it comes to expertise its our own situation and how we have dealt with it is what we use for guidance. This is what we can pass on ... the bits that worked and the ones that didn't or what we have seen with our MLCer behaviours and etc.
The answers are impossible to find and this forum isn't about answers its about behaviours and that is how we behave to our MLCer and them towards us and how we treat each other.
I have met many of the ladies on this forum and they are exceptional people who do not deserve this but we find strength in the situation and the acceptance of the process .. between us we aren't on our own. This is invaluable.
When we help others we help ourselves to heal when we are cruel, unkind or opinionated towards others we stunt our own growth.
So if we ask for help by posting and we get opinions we don't want to hear - ones that could help us - and we get angry - it is our loss.
If we want to journal and rant and complain then JUST say so at the beginning and no one will do anything but say Ok tough day hey? etc
This expert debate stated with a debate gone off the rails ..
Lets hope this thread can stop this happening again ... no blame just too much passion to fix and be heard!
B
-
Thankyou Stayed, re tough love and I know that I was so befuddled at first I gave my h the benefit of the doubt expecially when he came back from a trial sep . Bad move but that was where I was. right now I'm really beginning to detach, for my protection and it is my benefit.I no longer seek ways to fix this and am letting him have space. I feel the more I detach the stronger I get. I don't cry every day, actually not for over a week now and am enjoying (as a dear friend said) having been given permission to be single again. I'm not dating and not seeking that, single as in uncoupled, as in not having to care for him, not having to consider him , making more space in my caring brain(or heart?) for myself and my children . sorry for the hijack btw. but thank you.
-
I could never have been a student of MLC if I hadn't begun to read the teachings MLC on RCR's site. Thank you.
BTW the word teaching for me means guidance, wisdom, ideas and that's exactly what I get from the forum too.
Sil x
-
I have learnt so much from this board - thank you RCR - and I feel I've come a long way particular in the last few months.
I know MLC is nothing to do with us, but I for one needed to change the things I could change; it was way past it's sell by date. When my ex came back after the first BD I hadn't done any work on myself and when he was back it was like treading on eggshells all the time. As silly as it may sound, I was scared of saying anything in case it put him off me. I let him have total control.
Since joining the board I have learnt stop tallking to my friends and colleagues about my situation - I was taking on board what they were telling me to do, and what they would do etc., (in all honesty no-one knows what they would do in any situation until they are in it), I found an excellent councellor. I now learning to fully understand what detachment is and to really detach (I haven't made contact with him since begining of October, he's the one that's made contact albeit very slowly). I am finding the more I do this, the more accepting I become of the situation; I love the days when I can really push him out of my thoughts. Yes I still have my bad days (Sunday for instance), but if it hadn't been for this board or talking Nesquick2, I probably would have ended up talking to a psyhic which would have cost me a lot of money that I don't have.
No one is responsible for our happiness. On reflection I wasn't happy, I had a lot of built up anger and resentment. I always found something to get uptight about. I would not allow myself to be happy. I didn't like me and was always putting myself down. Although I still have doubts about myself, I am a better, nicer person with a big heart and a lot to offer.
So thank you RCR for putting this together and all your hard work. Thank you all for your continuing support.
SKxxx
-
So thank you RCR for putting this together and all your hard work.
Yes, thanks to RCR and her library of information and resources I think that I am alot saner, happier and level-headed than I would have been at this point otherwise. I moved away from town where H and I had been living and had to stop seeing a very good counsellor. After settling in to my new house and new city, RCR provided me with some counselling that was extremely timely and helpful, especially in light of the fact that I no longer had the outlet of my psychologist.
I have decided after a year of standing to let my life move on (note I did not say "move forward" because that is something we should be doing standing or otherwise). I am not stalling my divorce, H can have it. I have started dating again and have met someone who is very thoughtful and kind and romantic - I have no intention of rushing it with him or forcing him into the lives my children any time soon. But while I was standing, I relied heavily on this board, and it still provides me with a lot of helpful ways to work on me, to deal with my MLCer (because I will always have to deal with him as we have a young family). My MLCer was not the only one to get married young. I was younger than him when we married. I did not date lots of people and just assumed that I had met the love of my life and we would be together forever. The way I see my own life now, I feel that H is living in another town with OW and shows no signs of wanting to change that. He could be in this for a long, long while - he could be in it for years. He does not know, or ask, or care about my life, and so I no longer feel that I am betraying him by seeing other men, our relationship problems belonged to both of us, but he broke the marriage. This is my opportunity to date other people and to find out if someone else can, indeed, be a better partner, lover and friend to me in the second half of my life. If not, then at least I will know that whether H wants to come back or not. And if yes someone else better fits the bill, then H and I were never meant to stay together, whether he wants to come back or not, and I will have had the chance to meet and share this part of my life with someone who is better suited to the "me" that I have found again.
I have always been a bit of "free spirit" and, although I believe in being monogamous in a committed relationship, I do not believe that we are only capable of knowing "true love" with one person. I see my new boyfriend as such a different type of man to H, he is brave in the areas where H is cowardly, he is mature and experienced where H was still like a young man, he is open and honest about things that H would not talk about. It is very early days and this man is not perfect, there are things that he says and does that make me go ::) at times, but I have learned that it is not my job to change people. At one point when I was telling him that I was worried that I was still working out things in my head with my old R and that I did not want to hurt anyone, my new man said to me, "I am an adult, I knew that you were separated, I knew that had children, I know that you have alot of pressures in your life, I am choosing to be with you because I like you and if it doesn't work we are both free to end it". He summed up what I have learned here. When I am with someone, I am choosing to be with them which means accepting who they are, not trying to "change" them, or make them do things my way.
I continue to be very grateful for all the things I learn and the perspectives I must consider when I come on here. So, standing or not, you won't be getting rid of me anytime soon, I am afraid!
-
great thread. i have to say it has been tough as a lbs but i think once you manage to detatch then our lives move on so much quicker and for the better. ive met a lot of new people, made new friends and even found out who i could trust this last year. also being on this site has been a godsend. it feels good to be back laughing and joking around again. i take it to me that hubby has gone and if he comes back he knows where i am. i treat him just as a friend now and that only. the hardest thing for me is the financial side but ive protected the kids and me as much as i possibly can and a year on the roof is still over our heads yay. also waiting for the day my son returns home. thats been tough but my son knows i love him very much and sees me regularly. we all go through the same thing but are all at different stages. least we can all come on here and ask for advice or rant.
-
This really is a great thread. I definitely lean towards the "unconditional" camp. I draw strength from my spiritual beliefs and work hard to "trust the process" of MLC. In the early days, we want so much to fix everything we can to "convince" our spouses that they have made a mistake. After time passes, we (hopefully) start to look inward to see ourselves more clearly.
The last thing that I ever thought would happen was the end of my marriage. I believe I was a good wife, but I had many faults that have become more clear to me as time has passed. We didn't cause our MLC'ers to walk away, but there were likely little problems developing over the years that seemed insignificant and just normal long-term marriage growing pains. The MLC'er may have looked at them the same way until their crisis hits and all those negative feelings come bubbling up to the surface and to the forefront of their mind masking all the little niceties.
We all have choices in our situations. Standing is not the easy path. It is wrought with judgment from those who question our decisions and our seeming "inability" to let go. One of the things that has perplexed me the most is the people in my church who can not understand my desire to "just be still" and not take an active role in ending this marriage. How many times people have felt the desire to offer me the phrase "you can't make someone love you". This is true, but they have never walked in my shoes to experience the life that I had and to know the core values of the person I have spent over 22 years with.
We have become such a "throw away" society. If it doesn't work, return it or walk away. I don't believe that is the answer. My own parents have 7 marriages between them. I have more step-siblings and half-siblings than I care to count. My H's mother just lost her 4 husband. We wanted to be the generation to stop this madness and to bring marriage back to the permanent, steadfast place it was meant to have.
None of this is easy. However, we have to keep moving forward. We have to keep getting ourselves to the place where our footing is sure and we can be confident again. If that means a healthy regimen, more education, exercising, joining groups, etc.......do it for YOU. When we focus on meeting own needs, everyone around us benefits.
-
Very well said, Still.
-
I agree...very well put Still.
And as to the throw away society, I could not agree more and I feel this is part of why so many MLCers feel it is ok to throw away the marriage or the trust, respect...etc.
When people question your stand and think you should just walk away, aren't they asking why you don't act just like the MLCer?
Please understand that I don't at all think an LBS who does walk away is akin to an MLCer...it is a personal choice and quite understandable when an LBS says....enough.
But I'm just pointing out that for "outsiders" to so easily talk about tossing out the marriage...well, maybe their attitude is part of societies problem as well.
-
I just want to add too that we know in the majority of the cases, MLC is temporary and very few get stuck. There is no guarantee that the marriage will come back together after the MLCer is done with their crisis, but I feel like I need to wait and see and give it a shot. I took my vows seriously and am planning on holding up my end of the bargain through the crisis, though this is without a doubt the hardest thing I have ever done in my life.
-
I agree...very well put Still.
And as to the throw away society, I could not agree more and I feel this is part of why so many MLCers feel it is ok to throw away the marriage or the trust, respect...etc.
When people question your stand and think you should just walk away, aren't they asking why you don't act just like the MLCer?
Please understand that I don't at all think an LBS who does walk away is akin to an MLCer...it is a personal choice and quite understandable when an LBS says....enough.
But I'm just pointing out that for "outsiders" to so easily talk about tossing out the marriage...well, maybe their attitude is part of societies problem as well.
I agree with you and still that we live in a very throw away society. But that is not the same as, if a certain point, a LBS choose to, like SD says, move on. We were left behind without the choice of even try to work on the marriage. It is not like a couple who did not wanted to do the work on the marriage or that got divorced after a couple of years because "it is tough" or for a very mundane reason.
Don't think that, we LBS are tossing off the marriage even if we move on, divorce or find someone new. We were tossed off the marriage.
trusting, yes, MLC is, in most cases temporary and few get stuck. However it comes a time when the LBS, will have to take stock of what had happened, how long it has been, etc. and make a choice.
It is one thing to have a CB that has been out of the house for 18 months, keeps in touch and return after those 18 months (even if the crisis is not over) and to be on this for over 5 years with someone that is totally absent from your life for years and years, like in my case. Pragmatically I have no marriage and no husband. Im still legally married and there is this man I'm still legally married to. That is all.
Like SD husband's, mine lives in another city, hundreds of kms away, with OW2. He does not look like wanting to stop doing so anytime soon. He tossed the marriage. Yes, I know, MLC. But no one knows how long they take. We have no children, no marital home, we don't talk to each other, nothing. Except a legal connection and (and least I) some nice memories of the past (but that past ended over 5 years ago).
So, don't think that all LBS have to keep holding to the marriage. After an amout a time (never in the beginning, everything is very messed up for us at that poin) if they want to keep holding to the marriage, they can and should, if not, they should not.
-
So, don't think that all LBS have to keep holding to the marriage. After an amout a time (never in the beginning, everything is very messed up for us at that poin) if they want to keep holding to the marriage, they can and should, if not, they should not.
AnneJ,
I agree with what you are saying. It is an individual choice as to what one decides to do when they are left behind. However, because this was developed as a stander's website for the LBS, I believe the majority of the people here believe in the commitment of marriage, even through the toughest of times. We certainly can't control what our spouses do. We can only control what we do.
There may come a time when my H finalizes his divorce and remarries. At that point, I don't know what I would do. However, I still believe that society permits, even encourages divorce, rather than working on the hard issues. I find that to be quite sad.
-
So, don't think that all LBS have to keep holding to the marriage. After an amout a time (never in the beginning, everything is very messed up for us at that poin) if they want to keep holding to the marriage, they can and should, if not, they should not.
AnneJ,
I agree with what you are saying. It is an individual choice as to what one decides to do when they are left behind. However, because this was developed as a stander's website for the LBS, I believe the majority of the people here believe in the commitment of marriage, even through the toughest of times. We certainly can't control what our spouses do. We can only control what we do.
There may come a time when my H finalizes his divorce and remarries. At that point, I don't know what I would do. However, I still believe that society permits, even encourages divorce, rather than working on the hard issues. I find that to be quite sad.
Agree, Still, think the majority (if not all) the people here believe in the commitment of marriage. Even when it gets tough. But when something like MCL is throw on us (and like it has been said in the forum, normal relashionships rules no longer apply), in some cases, at a certain point, the LBS changes. The change may go to move on or to decide to stay.
Think the forum allow us for a better judgment of the situation. We are aware of what is going on, we can decide based on more information. Also, for some of us, like myself, if the marriage virtually does not exist, the spouse is more than gone for years on end, the spouses do not talk, the MCLer is living with the alienator, one starts to feel different. I do feel different. And sense changes in me every month that goes by.
Yes, society encorages divorce rather than working on the hard issues. And many divorces happen for very "silly" reasons. Again, agree,it is sad that it is that way. The issue with MLC is that it is not possible for the couple to work on the marriage. The MCLer is not up to it and the LBS alone cannot do the work of the couple. We can only work on ourselves, not the marriage.
-
My MC has some experience with MLC. She is also a Christian and came highly recommended. My H and I were working pretty hard on R with her. H was engaged, writing the letters, talking, connecting. She thought things were going pretty well. When I had some doubts she even said "he wouldn't be willing to do all this work if the didn't" want the marriage to work. Plus he couldn't carry on the deceit.
Well, we were both wrong. He fooled us both. Why he even went for three months is a mystery.
-
AnneJ,
I can agree with what you last wrote...being new here, I'm finding so much info, caring and compassion ...AND so many similarities to my situation. I find I can't talk to others around me - it's as though Thayer view this sit as cut and dry!! Yet I have felt all along that something else has been amiss, very wrong...just couldn't figure out what...and now I know-MLC.
I know there have been great changes in me although I am still on a roller coaster of emotions at times (and now with holidays approaching). I do try to I'd and reflect on these. Try to be honestvwith myself and work to improve me for me. We are all so barve to do so!! I find it sad that our MLCers can not/will not and are not able to do this as we see such potential in them and know just how wonderful they can be...thnk this is the toughest for me some days! Always hoping the best for them.
Society does encourage divorce and disposability ...thnk the new no-fault divorce laws encourage this as well allowing any/no excuse to fly!! I can hear my xH saying he'll divorce me because of the mail pile left on the counter!!!....not that any of it was his!!! Yikes!!!
-
AnneJ,
Sorry that I didn't write more clearly.....
Honestly, I don't at all put LBS' who walk away from the marriage by choice or not in the same camp as the throw-away types I referred to. NOT AT ALL. I was afraid someone might think that after I wrote it...
Honestly, I'm not anti-divorce....To be honest, some of the things I've read here make me wonder why some people stay at all...they amaze me....but those that don't, having endured their spouses MLC, are not throw away types....again, I would never in a million years put them in the same camp as the MLCer...who ARE the throw away types, at least during MLC.
Sorry for the confusion.
-
I agree, divorce is too easy to get these days. We really do live in a throwaway society. There is very little, at this time that can be done about this. Therefore, as much as this forum prefers to focus on the salvation of marriages/relationships, the statistics indicate that the probability of doing so, is much less then 50%.
That being the case, there is an ever greater need for the forum to help LBS's sort themselves out, become strong, healthy and able, to deal with whatever the outcome of our situations might be. Our goal is mostly to help each other take the focus off the MLC spouse and give it to ourselves. Hopefully empowering each of us enough to prosper and pursue a happy, healthy life for ourselves, with or WITHOUT our MLCer.
-
Oh goodness absolutely, AnneJ most definitely does not rank in the group that THROWS away marriages. You AnneJ have already been standing longer then I have been reconciled with my h. You have every right dear, to make the decision you have. In my opinion, you have been a most devoted STANDER, and I bow to your strength, willpower and stamina.
I am delighted that you are finally going to release yourself and try to live again. You deserve the best life has to offer AnneJ, as does LisaLives. What each of you bring to this forum is PROOF that life does go on, that it takes just as much effort to let go and decide to go it alone, as it does to stand. That whatever any of us choose to do, it can be done with grace and honour.
Thank you so much for bringing your knowledge, experience and convictions to our forum. All knowledge is empowering and we need all we can get.
hugs Stayed
-
Ditto on what Stayed wrote and again, my profuse apologies if I didn't make clear what I meant to. IAbsolutely. I hate it when I do that. :(
Bon
-
BonBon, I know you did not meant to mix LBS that move on with the “I just walk out of the marriage because”…like Standing said “the mail pile left on the counter…” or any similar, kind of silly thing.
I’m also not anti-divorce. Think in some situations (MLC or not) it is the way. But in most situations it is not the way, it is just something that become easy (well, easy if is mutual and all goes smooth, otherwise, easy is the more ironic word to use) and very available, that is indorced by society at large.
Stayed, thanks you so much. Yes, the purpose of this forum goes far behind keeping marriages intact (because even RCR says it, divorce is not the end and the spouses can, if they wish, always remarry), and more into focusing at the LBS, finding ways of helping us cope with this hard time in our lives.
Have to say that, at this point, my stamina is kind of low. Some 5 + years this has been! Along with husband’s MLC tons and tons of family situations of all types. I’ve been really cursed with the #may you live an interesting life” saying! ;D ;D ;D ;D
Agree, whatever each of us choose must be done with grace and honour.
Thank you as well, BonBon. Your apologies are more than accepted. :)
-
From AnneJ
"Yes, the purpose of this forum goes far behind keeping marriages intact"
RCR says in the her initial post on this thread that each poster may have their own agenda, but below is the Heros Spouse mission statement. This is at the top of RCR's current blog.
The Hero’s Spouse Mission Statement
•To provide information, advice and support on how to Stand for marriage to men and women experiencing midlife crisis and infidelity in their marriages.
•To prevent divorces.
•To reduce the overall rate of divorce.
•To encourage an alternative to divorce.
•To encourage personal growth and loving of one’s Self.
-
I know, DGU, but the reality is that we end up dealing with people that are getting divorced and with some that are already divorced. Don't think it would make much sense to abandon them after they're already here. Given that all got here for the same reason, they wanted the marriage/spouse back.
So, in fact, the forum end up to me far more to help keeping the marriaeg intact. Even because, if there where no divorced or about to divorce people in here, it would also be about supporting the LBS dealing with the experience of MLC "To provide information, advice and support on how to Stand for marriage to men and women experiencing midlife crisis and infidelity in their marriages". And that is more than just being for keeping a marriage intact. Would not do of much to keep a marriage intact without providing help, confort and support for a LBS, I think...
-
When I had some doubts she even said "he wouldn't be willing to do all this work if the didn't" want the marriage to work.
What if he DOES want the marriage to work, but he isn't through with his REPLAY???
When your husband tells you he thinks he loves OW more than you, why not validate with "I'm sorry you feel that way..." We haven't heard THAT phrase in a long time, LOL!!
-
"I know, DGU, but the reality is that we end up dealing with people that are getting divorced and with some that are already divorced. Don't think it would make much sense to abandon them after they're already here. Given that all got here for the same reason, they wanted the marriage/spouse back."
Yep, I'm one who has experienced the reality of divorce over a year and a half ago. I would be interested in the return of my marriage.....but first things first, my MLCer must complete the process.
-
This will may very well be the only "drive by to let you know I'm OK" you get from me. :)
I was drawn in, and to this particular thread for a reason...and when I finish, I will log out and leave again.
I don't know what caused this thread to be written, and I don't really want to know, but in MLC there is generally a mix of Unconditional and Tough Love used.
In regards to being a "expert" or not....I know NOTHING about ANYTHING, except the Lord give it to me to say or write.
It was trial and error and I made many errors when I was navigating through with my husband. I advised people with what I knew would work, and I watched it work in other situations. So many times, I have asked Him for His input/wisdom/knowledge/understanding when advising others.
That's why I say, I know nothing except what He has given me, and I will not say I come up with these things on my own, as I never was able to do this on my own.
The beauty of being different is that you can agree, disagree, or somewhere in between; and it has nothing to do with with who you agree or disagree with; your point of view has everything to do with YOU.
And though you might fight or argue with the advice someone gives; but you might want to sit down and do some thinking before you become quick to disagree...these moderators have been where you are at one point or the other, as I had, once upon a time.
I did ALOT of arguing when it was me so long ago; but once I got what I needed to get, I realized they were right; I DID need to change, I DID need to grow, I DID need to let go of that man who was deep within crisis...and as long as I held onto him; I wasn't getting anywhere but deeper within my own misery.
Granted, I didn't even start to get it until I gained some understanding of what was happening; but the fact was, I wasn't any different than any one of you in the beginning. I felt everyone that advised me didn't know squat, and I was WRONG about that, so wrong.
Arrogance, and I had plenty of it, did not get ME anywhere; I was only making the situation worse in trying to make him do what I considered right. He turned on me worse as time went past, and as long as I wasn't willing to let go of him, and back away, he was only becoming more secure in his justification for why he was treating me like dirt.
It was only when I backed away, beginning to change that he began to turn back toward me...and in time, when I saw he was serious about wanting to try again with me, the Lord instructed me to begin to lay limits and boundaries on his behavior toward me; holding him accountable in that fashion.
But, the changes in me did NOT stop, they continued, even as I continued to walk my own journey to wholeness and healing.
Even as my husband tested me severely, I kept going; I KNEW these had to finish, regardless of whether he accepted them or not...and I kept letting him go to decide for himself, even as he pursued me, trying to push me back into what I once had been.
I learned that whether the marriage comes together into a new marriage or not, is questionable, as there are NO guarantees; only the work I was willing to do on MYSELF.
My husband chose me, eventually, but it was HIS decision, NOT mine....I wanted to stay married IF that was possible, but I knew I would not be able to accomplish this alone; he would have to help me, and only IF he CHOSE to. That was when the harder work began...and it was hard, I won't kid you.
There were times and seasons for "Unconditional" love, just as there was the same for the "Tough" love...and I saw both seasons; sometimes separately, sometimes they ran together; but they existed for me. It depended upon what I was seeing in my husband's behaviors at a given time.
Within the first bout of crisis, I was busy changing; and I was counseled by the Lord to back down, learning the Unconditional lessons. I was a pretty independent lady; and the opposite I had to learn, was to become weak; and many things I did looked like doormat behavior. This did not bring me humiliation, rather it taught me to serve in much a different way than before. You see, my husband was searching at that time for what he thought was "The One"; and I mattered very little if I even mattered at all to him.
Yet, his broken road led him right around to me; who had been "The One" in the beginning; I remembered him saying that...and I didn't understand what that meant at that time...but I saw this meaning later.
Once I became his choice, I saw the "rules" of engagement begin to change somewhat, and then, I was able to learn the tough love lessons set before me.
The Lord(my Intuition) knew when the times were right; and instructed me accordingly. Sometimes people showed up with confirming words, sometimes what He spoke into my heart was all I had to go on, but I trusted Him with all I had; and followed His advice/instruction; learning even more in that process.
The road was a seriously broken one; a long and hard journey for both of us; and things, even now, aren't always what they should be; but we're still together, and we still love one another. I'm honestly glad for the broken road we walked; sometimes separately, sometimes together.
Again and again, it has been written that it's time for people begin to grow within themselves...you cannot fix your MLC spouse, you cannot fix your situation, it is NOT your fault what has happened; but everything happens for a reason.
The crisis was definitely designed to get your attention; not just your MLC spouse's; and the process will be walked through; no shortcuts, nothing you can do to shorten it, although you CAN lengthen it with your actions toward your MLC spouse..and this is regardless of whether the marriage makes it through or not.
As long as you fight the process you'll mire yourself down in a bog of self pity, depression, and anger.
Your spouse in crisis has chosen a road that you were NOT invited upon; yet, if they allow the process to work on and within them, they will eventually learn the SAME lessons you have been brought to in your own journey; within a road you were set upon that was NOT of your own making.
ALL of you were FORCED upon this particular road when you were bombed by your MLC spouse, and I was NO exception. It happened to me, too.
I have shared so much of my experience with you over time and space; until I didn't have any more to write about.
My life at this time has continued to be a successful one; but NOT because I managed to stay married, but because I walked my journey to COMPLETION. The way was hard, I had people who, at times, were less than kind, but it was for my own good. I needed the kicks in the seat of my pants that I received; if not for those, and the grace of the Lord, I might have quit at given points of this.
As time went on, I came to know with a certainty that it was possible my husband could have walked away at any time; and left me for good. Yet, I also found that I could stop this anytime I wanted to; as I had this same power he did.
It's amazing when you find you are just as capable of walking away as your MLC spouse is...they really do think they have all the control; little do they know, they have no more control over you, than you have over them.
This is all about CHOICES; use them wisely; no one can tell you what to do; and the advice on protecting yourself from the MLC'er's antics remains the same. Start learning to take care of yourselves, and learn to support and stand on your own. No one should ever be saddled with the care of another; each person must learn to stand independently; this is one of the imbalances the crisis puts into true balance.
The difference between most of you, and me, was that I was already independent to a certain extent; and that independence has grown into total independence upon myself.....my husband cares for me, but is not expected to take care of me...there is a difference here.
I used a combination of Unconditionals and Tough Love during the 11 years we were within the crisis to bring us both through; sometimes I was backing down, sometimes standing up; but the method I used during a given time was unique to whatever he and I were facing.
No one can say for sure when certain techniques will work; you KNOW your MLC spouse better than anyone; except the Lord; and only YOU know what will or might work.
It's a fine balance, a tightrope, if you will, to try and work on yourself, and attempt to bring your marriage through at the same time, but the growing you do need to accomplish within yourself DOES NEED TO BE DONE.
The crisis triggers this growing within; and yes, you do have the choice NOT to walk the journey that is always being spoken of here on the board...no one HAS to do anything they don't choose to do, and that's a fact.
Yet, if you don't do the growing, changing, becoming...you will face circumstances that will take you through it again, and it becomes harder to accomplish, as time is added, and your lot becomes tougher. I know, it took me the whole 11 years just to learn compassion for my MLC spouse..why do you think he took some of the detours he took?
You see, I can see things that most of you can't see because you're not where I am; I looked back over the whole time, and saw the importance of the journey the LBS needs to take.
If I hadn't begun to walk my journey, I would not have been anywhere on the internet, nor would I have learned, written, nor dispensed all that I was given to write.
His journey honestly did become about ME and MY JOURNEY. I found it did not matter if he decided to return and help me rebuild a new marriage. This was about ME, and no one else.
Oh yes, God instructed me at various times, to do various things, He called me to stand for the marriage; but there was a point when He did ask me what I wanted to do; and I decided to continue standing after considering all that had been faced, the time gone past, the love I still held for him.
Yet, if I hadn't focused on myself, I would still be stuck at this time in my own self pity; and a vicious cycle that wouldn't have ended UNTIL I learned what was set before me. Recognizing that I needed to learn about me was the first step in my journey.
Each crisis is different, just as each person is different what works for one doesn't work for another..it is definitely trial and error.
Oh, and although I agree we are worthy of love and we never deserved what happened to us; without the behavior of the MLC spouse, we would NOT learn how to deal with truly hateful people out in this cold, cold world.
You might think God is mean to allow what He allows, but I came to see it as a true blessing on my part. If the crisis had not happened, I would not have the knowledge I hold, and I would not have learned to stand up for myself, setting boundaries that were healthy so that I would be treated better by not just my spouse, but others, as well.
There was wisdom in not always taking what was said/done personally; as I learned that people would treat us as we allowed them to, but on the other hand, also learning that when one does/says something it has nothing to do with you, and everything to do with the person who does it.
If you're looking for your MLC spouse to do what is considered right, don't hold your breath; you can only decide what's best for you, and it is they who will be the losers in the end if they don't grow up and straighten up.
When advice is given, regardless if it's "unconditional" or "tough love" of a type, understand that it's of the take or leave it variety; you can either take it, leave it, trash it, whatever.
In the end it's YOUR life you must live; no one else can live it for you, just as no one can survive this for you, nor do it to you.
A house divided cannot stand, this much is true; but one person CAN work to bring a marriage back together if they are willing to do so. I put up with a great deal just to stay married; and in my book, it was worth the steps I took, the crap I observed, and I learned something new from each interaction with my husband that helped me deal with other people.
The changes I underwent were necessary and worth the pain I endured to become the person I became.
I became hard in my many ways, soft in others. Our marriage is not perfect; but anyone who expects a perfect marriage is in for a hard disappointment; as NO relationship, nor any person is perfect...each is flawed in various different ways.
In closing; be kind to one another; you are all in the same boat in various aspects of this crisis; love one another...each person is different, each one's views are different; and though you might be angry at what one says; bear in mind each of these views may come together to make a whole new view for yourself.
Keep an open mind; the people advising will always see something you don't, as you're too close to see it for yourself....it is rare the person who is able to step out of the proverbial box of their own situation, and look back in from another's point of view.
Just so you know, there have been many times, I've needed someone to clarify what I could not see for myself. :)
Much love and hugs to all of you. :)
Love,
HB
-
Love and hugs back to you HB. Thanks for your outstanding words. You are so right, we all have something to offer each other.
hugs Stayed
-
I just so much do not want to be on this journey. Love to you HB
-
Love and hugs back to you HB. Thanks for your outstanding words. You are so right, we all have something to over each other.
Stayed, you are so right about all having something to offer the other; all you can do is offer your honest opinion and advice; it is up to the other person to receive or reject; that's not a reflection on the advice you give. :)
People can say all they want, but that doesn't make it the truth; as long as you know the truth which resides within your heart; what's said about or to you really doesn't matter in the longer run. You know where you are within this journey of your life, and you know where you're coming from. :)
I just so much do not want to be on this journey. Love to you HB
Well Xyzcf, I didn't want to be on this journey when it all began; but it was what it was; and I had to make the best of the hand that was dealt to me; learning in that process about ME; as this didn't concern anyone else, not even my MLC husband.
Hon, there is a light at the end of the tunnel, and I promise you it's not a runaway train...just the light that leads to the naked truths that we discover deep within us during our journey to wholeness and healing.
***Warning, Hijack coming; update on me**** LOL!!
Oh, and while I'm thinking about it; I'm doing OK; the Doc had to up my dose of Synthroid for the time being...my mouth stays dry, my skin is dry; I'm still losing hair, I'm exhausted sometimes, and I look like crap, LOL...but I'll survive.
I left the board awhile back, I'm not able to handle it any more. I have a great many memories beginning to fade most especially since I spent the last weeks before I left purging my experience.
I've been writing them down in another place backing them up for a different kind of use; but they are leaving me; and I knew this would happen.
From what I understand, I will always "store" them within myself; but they'll fade further unless triggered at a later time when necessary.
My prior post doesn't mean I'm "back"; I'm honestly out of stuff to write; except for repetition.
I'm currently working fairly steadily, all continues to be OK and just fine in my neck of the woods.
****End of Hijack***
Hugs to both of you. :)
-
lots of love to you hb. glad you popped in to see us all xxx ;D
-
HB,
So good to hear from you... today, I thought especially of you. I am glad that you are 'surviving'! I hope that doctor of yours manages to hit on the right dose of Synthroid (my son takes it too because of his brain cancer he simply does not produce T3, so he takes T4), I am sure that once you hit the right balance, things will even out as to the skin and hair (probably nails too!!) issues...
Love ya!!
-
HB, if you read this, don't ever think you have nothing left to contribute. Just because the words don't want to come out anymore, your presence in this community has been a help for so many of us. We are glad you are doing well, and hope you continue to do so. And if, on random occasions, you stop by to say hi or Happy Turkey Day or whatever, we will all feel a little better just for that. Thank you for all you've shared with us.
-
Yeah HB I'd like to 2nd that. I told my Ds if I get all sad about daddy being away remind me to read some Heartsblessing. They do!!
Little voices coming from the back of the minivan saying "Mommy don't forget to read Heartsblessing's words" :)
Works like a charm everytime. Thank you! Also when I do see you pop on I like to yell out " Elvis is in the building." :o :o ??? :)
-
lots of love to you hb. glad you popped in to see us all xxx
Hi Nesquick! :)
Lots of love and hugs right back at you! :) I guess if I'm going to hijack, I might as well make it a good one! :)
:)
HB,
So good to hear from you... today, I thought especially of you. I am glad that you are 'surviving'! I hope that doctor of yours manages to hit on the right dose of Synthroid (my son takes it too because of his brain cancer he simply does not produce T3, so he takes T4), I am sure that once you hit the right balance, things will even out as to the skin and hair (probably nails too!!) issues...
Hi Mitzpah!
I forgot about the nail issues; they are breaking like crazy; not to mention having gained weight faster than I ever had. I'm still having some trouble when holding conversations with people; I can't think of what I want to say; and will often forget the simplest names of various things, unless I just let Him step in for me.
But it's apparent my writing is not suffering at all; that flows right out like it always had before. :)
Maybe doc will get my med balanced given some time; I hope so. :)
HB, if you read this, don't ever think you have nothing left to contribute. Just because the words don't want to come out anymore, your presence in this community has been a help for so many of us. We are glad you are doing well, and hope you continue to do so. And if, on random occasions, you stop by to say hi or Happy Turkey Day or whatever, we will all feel a little better just for that. Thank you for all you've shared with us.
Hi LC,
There comes a time when you get all "talked out"; and there's nothing left to say; but to repeat in another way what was said before. I never claimed to be an expert on MLC or any other stage of life. I only know what I have learned, what the Lord has taught me, and what He brought through and still brings through me from time to time.
He has guided me for years, still guides me, even to this day; and He startled me when He directed me to come in here to take a look for the first time since He pulled me off some time ago.
I think it was something I needed to see; but since I was being talked about, LOL, I threw my two cents worth in at His request. There is very little you don't know about me anymore; I think I exhausted everything when I purged myself out a short time back. :)
I still have no clue what is and was supposed to be so special about me; but I have always appreciated the prayers, the love, the hugs; and never worried about getting any kind of thanks for what I tried to do, and that was educate people as much as I was able to do with what the Lord had and has given me in the way of knowledge and understanding. Hopefully, all I was able to document; and set down in writing will help others in times to come. :)
Yeah HB I'd like to 2nd that. I told my Ds if I get all sad about daddy being away remind me to read some Heartsblessing. They do!!
Little voices coming from the back of the minivan saying "Mommy don't forget to read Heartsblessing's words" :)
Works like a charm everytime. Thank you! Also when I do see you pop on I like to yell out " Elvis is in the building." :o :o ??? :)
Hi MammaBear! :)
I have to say when I read your post, I burst out laughing; although it's heartwarming to know I get read on a regular basis by anyone who cares to read what I've written, that is, IF you can stand getting "informationed" to death; what with my long posts and such. LOL!! :)
I saw you make that comment about Elvis sometime back when I was chatting with you and several other posters on one of your threads. :)
Oh, Mamma, I'm not special; I never was; I've tried and tried to tell all of you that I'm nothing worth mentioning; in real life you would be surprised to see that I'm only 5'3" tall; gray headed by now; not the GIANT people had often expected to see...yet, I believe the Lord has a sense of humor; He had to have had one when he made ME; and then equipped me when I was 35 years old with wisdom and knowledge of the crisis that exceeded my years lived on this earth. :)
Now, some of you are younger than me; so I guess that put me in the category of being an "elder" as wisdom is supposed to belong to the "elder" set; yet, there are people older than me that I often find myself still counseling; even at this late date.
A miracle was performed in me, as I recall; my memories from the first crisis were gone; and I was fragmented and broken within that area of my life back in early 2010...yet, the Lord had seen fit to guide me directly in 2009; at least until my husband broke his ankle...then over a three month period, He restored my knowledge, my memories of that time, and added more unto me as I worked here for over a year and a half.
I have attempted to leave at least 3 or 4 times; but was instructed to return each time, for a period of time, until this last time, when He pulled me in for just a few posts this time.
Just so you know, I haven't lurked much, during this last time of hiatus, if at all. I have checked in on several posters in the past month; but had not seen any reason to log in to post anything. I've posted on Hyperglad's thread; and on another thread tonight, besides this one.
You are all doing fine; there are certain things I can't teach any of you; the majority of it you will find in my postings; but some of it you will figure out on your own, just as I did.
One of the biggest lessons you learn out of this crisis, is to stand on your own; and that's something I can advise, but not teach you to do. Even I had to learn at a given point to trust myself, and what my intuition was telling me.
That was the biggest reason I was so heavy on teaching people how to access that still small voice within; this necessary gift will teach you more than I ever could; as God knows your situations better than I do or ever will. :)
You may find at first what you think is my voice echoing throughout your heart to begin with; but God has a tendency to use what He knows will work in each situation; and even if my own words seem to echo within your heart; know that God placed them there; as He once spoke them through me.
That's a deeply humbling experience to hear the voice of the Lord as He speaks to you; and a spiritual aspect I have never forgotten to bring forward in all of the teachings I have done over time.
There have been people I've known in real life, that have said they heard my voice but the wisdom spoken and taught to them was far beyond what He would have given me to speak; and what they heard was actually tailored to their own situation; and unless I had been a fly on the wall, I cannot know these things for sure.
With that said, I will NOT tell you I'm such a great person, nor am I perfect; I was and am only a willing vessel who was honored, and am still honored to have the experience of being used in the way God has chosen to use me to help others.
The Lord certainly does work in mysterious ways, His Wonders to behold....and He really does use the simplest of things and the simplest of people to confound the wise...enter ME from stage left, LOL!!
I never asked for it; but I surely accepted and gratefully received all He's offered me. :) I'm not even what you would consider an educated person; I graduated high school, but never went to college; I don't even have a degree; just some street smarts; and a willingness to learn what's set before me.
All I can say is that He's blessed me beyond my own expectations; educated me beyond what I once knew, trained me in various ways for the work I have done, and still do, and most of all, I still know that whatever I face, He really does love me; and looks after me....if He didn't; I'd already be dead. LOL!!
I have learned to be grateful for what I have, as it all belonged to Him before it ever came to me; I know for a fact He owns all and everything; even me. :)
Love to you,
HB
-
L I get confused. No duh! I think in HBs stages it says at BD MLC is 1/2 way or 3/4 way through. My H (hindsight) was depressed and withdrawn a good 3 years pre BD. Now gone 9 months. How can 17.5 mos post BD be the beginning of anything ? Beginning of the end as in 3 more years? I know that each sitch is different and I know why. All the variables of each sitch and all.
I guess I'm counting my lucky stars that my H acts sheepish around me and kind. Good thing. :)
Mamma,
Yep. We are all confused, aren't we? This stuff is confusing.
HB wrote the Stages of a Mid Life Crisis - and, I believe, she struggled with whether or not to put any specific time periods with each stage. While I am extremely grateful that she did put her estimates (when I first came to this sight - it was the time periods that gave me hope......at the time, all I could think about was when would he return), but, now, I think that the times and estimates are dangerous - if we believe that this is a road map that our spouses will follow. I think the beginning (the beginning as far as OUR awareness) - the Bomb Drop event - is pretty typical - as the MLCers pretty much do and say very similar things. After that - when they go into Full Blown Replay - the path is not so typical. The long middle part is a crap shoot - as it appears that the Replayer can go off into different paths and types of Replay behavior. After all, this is life. Life is unpredictable.....life sometimes just happens.
This is not an exact science.....there is so little understood and documented - it is barely scientific at all.
HB wrote that BD can be (note CAN BE) 1/2 or 3/4 of the way toward the MLCer coming to Acceptance - if one can look back to the trigger that began the descent into the tunnel.
I've surmised that my H's trigger was a heart-attack in June of 2006. If that is true - it took 4 years for my H to go through denial and anger - before he hit Replay - BD was May of 2010. Well, that doesn't fit, does it? Four years for denial and anger? That's quite a stretch..... Ok. Them maybe the trigger was D21's graduation from high school and moving away to college in August of 2008. I know that H was in contact with his ex-wife sometime during 2009 - which culminated in a trip he took to visit her in August 2009 (I remember when he told me about this trip......He went on and on about what he did over the weekend. It sounded very unbelieveable - but I just accepted it.....Looking back, I can see he was clearly lying.....or maybe it's because I know, now). In reading HB's stages, this makes sense. Anger during 2009, with the seeds of his affair being planted - culminating to full blown Replay in early 2010 - and Bomb Drop in May.
I can look back and now, see the anger my H displayed the 6 to 12 months prior to BD. My kids would tell me, when I would return from a business trip, how mean their father was, how he would explode over very small things, how he was constantly putting them on restriction and screaming at them. Okay. I guess that fits.
RCR has written that Replay lasts an average of 2 years - with low energy MLCers bringing the average down. Again, these are just estimations based upon the research she has done and the countless number of MLC stories she has followed over the years.
So, here I am 17.5 months post BD. H is deep in the tunnel. Everything is still my fault. He's filed for divorce. While he cycled back and forth over the past year - giving me mixed messages - he now seems determined and steadfast that this is what he wants. If you read the articles, this is also pretty typical.
Sometimes I think that we LBS hope for the end of the Replay stage. Like Replay will end - our spouses will go off into Depression and Withdrawal - and come out - CURED. (Okay...Maybe that was what I was thinking/hoping for). ;) ;) ;)
There are so many LBS on this site - ahead of me. LBS' - whose stories I've followed - on the year plus that I've been on this site. Many of these LBS' spouses are still in Replay. Some MAY be in Depression and Withdrawal - but, again, it is only from our viewpoint. Just because we see something or think that our spouses have entered a certain stage - doesn't make it so. Sometimes it seems to us that the MLCer has reached a certain stage - because we want it to be......we see what we want to see.
So....Replay is over. Great! Now what? Well, Depression and Withdrawal. According to HB - this averages another 1+ years. Discouraged, yet? I don't mean to be the bearer of glad tidings..... but - if we continue to watch (I guess what I mean to say is - if I continue to watch) - this all is just too long....too depressing.....just too, too much.
So. Maybe this is why I say I'm just at the beginning. A bit of brainwashing that I do - to myself - to accept that this is just going to take a long time....and I've got to quit wasting this time - WATCHING. Watching my H and paying attention to what my H says and does - reminds me of what it is like to have a sore on the inside of my mouth. You know those types of sores? The ones where - if you touch the sore with your tongue - it stings like hell. So, what do I do? All day long, I will "test" it. I put my tongue on the sore and guess what? It stings. Yep. It's still there. It still hurts. It hasn't healed. Ok. So, let me check again....Yep...Ouch...That really hurt! It's not getting ANY better. Ok. It's been a few hours - let me check again. Damn....that really hurts! It hasn't healed at all! Yep. This is what it feels like.
No two crisis are alike. I think I remember OP posting that MLCer's with short Replay stages - may have Depression and Withdrawal stages that last longer. (How encouraging, huh?) To quote DGU, quoting RCR - MLC takes a long time. And, to quote HB - you honestly don't want your spouse to go quickly through the stages - as they are likely to skip issues - that can and will rear their ugly heads at a later date. There just is no getting around it. We just have to get through it.
So....where am I going with all this? I don't know. I think I had a point when I began this post - one that I've completely lost in all my rambling.
Oh yes....Conway says that MLC in men lasts 3-7 years.
So, trigger being 2006 or 2008 - My H may be 2-4 years from.......getting his head out of his a$$. As I've been at this for 17.5 months - it seems like I've not reached the top of the hill yet. Hence, the beginning.
Lots of words......I've obviously spent too much time thinking about this. End result? Guess what? H is still in Replay.
That's why we need to live our lives. Watching theirs is too painful and too discouraging.
Limitless
-
Limitless,
I am coming up just behind you all the way, you are like a mentor to me and sometimes a teacher needs their student to remind them why they were the teacher!
You know that it takes time..............measuring this time will only send you in a downward spiral! So I just wanted to send you a video that for me helps me everytime I feel the way you do:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7aosc4gu-Xo&feature=relate
There is a season for everything :-)
-
Dandy,
Thanks for the song....I love that song!
L
-
Thanks L, I knew it had to be along the lines you described. I guess with my sitch I feel like a big part of replay was started before BD bc he was a stay at home Dad who never stayed home. Out taking vicodin again and drinking(he was clean and sober 10 years) Out to go play music with his guy friends.
I always let him come and go as he pleased.
Also I have always been independent financially and other ways. He tried to control me sometimes accusing me of having a BF. :o :o :o :o Once his Mom moved in (she's 94 years old) we both had to do more.
The responsibilities were too much for a 51 year old man/boy.
That's why I think when she went to Florida at the end of Jan he started EA with Bowser turning PA on Valentine's Day. :'(
I may feel optimistic about his return bc I feel when he's around me that he's acting like I am the bestest W ever.
H is acting like a teenager with a crush. Blaming himself and not me. Getting all happy with the Ds when it's time to come back here.
We'll see what happens but the chemistry between us is alive and well. Thankfully. Now I just need him to deal with whatever issues he's struggling with. I know he's doing a lot of soul searching. He talks about it in his texts.
Thanks L for answering my question. Also good luck with your H. You're right while they're in the tunnel all bets are off! :o
-
HB wrote that BD can be (note CAN BE) 1/2 or 3/4 of the way toward the MLCer coming to Acceptance - if one can look back to the trigger that began the descent into the tunnel.
This wasn't written anywhere in the stages but within the Sermon's Thread I once had; and this came from an article entitled "The Importance of Establishing a Time Line"
Also bear in mind this particular article was written back in 2002. I know a whole lot more now, than I did back then.
Besides that BD that comes during the stage of Replay for the MLC'er, is the start of the LBS JOURNEY; whereas the MLC'er has already been within the tunnel for a period of time...so what COULD be considered the "middle" for them; brings you in at a time when you are called upon to begin the work within yourself; but the signs for some reason must be clear; and they don't come any clearer than during Replay, otherwise, the people here and elsewhere would NOT recognize what was happening.
God works in mysterious ways; and as I delve deeper into the various aspects; I can see where one thing works into another, linking everything together into a strange kind of symphony.....I know I'm not the only seeing this; but each piece is instrumental to what happens next.
On the other hand, regardless of how hard people try; there will NEVER be a way of stopping this crisis from happening; unless parents become totally perfect in the raising of their children, people learn to stop hurting and harming each other, and every material thing a person has is stripped from them, taking them back to the basics of life and emotional connection with people that is honestly MORE important than accumulated "stuff". You know, as well as I do, that may never happen....at least not in my lifetime.
Anyway, I'm rambling. :)
I've been considering having OP or someone willing to help me to edit that particular post; or at least allow me back into it long enough to retitle it; leaving my initial story within....I'd considered deleting it entirely at one point, but I am unable to do that.
On the other hand, it might be better if that post were deleted in its entirely; in my own situation, it doesn't tell but a piece of the story illustrating the timeline of my husband's first crisis.
Limitless is right, back at the time I wrote the stages themselves, I'd hesitated about writing the times within; but even with them, I believe I wrote the times as "CAN LAST "x" time".
There was a great deal of uncertainty even back in 2002; as even next to NO information was available.
The timeline really was written to help pinpoint where it all started; and the MLC'er will usually let you know WHEN; and that's assuming they come through far enough to talk about what happened to them without blaming you...and that time does come; it did for me and many others.
The stages were written as a GUIDE to assist one in hopefully knowing where the MLC'er was within the tunnel; although most people use it as a template in HINDSIGHT.
The last and final stage of Acceptance was written long BEFORE my husband came out that first time; and I did see him navigate in this way; although it took time for him to exit that first time.
When he was forced on through back last year, he picked up where he had left off, within the Settling Down Process....that was another confirmation I had regarding the interruption and continuation of the crisis.
I suspected that he didn't finish various aspects of Replay; as the 7 year old was mostly in the driver's seat during Replay back in 2001; but because of the fear of losing me; he put this most painful issue on hold; and it traveled with him into the Settling Down Process; rearing its ugly head, and interrupting his processing in the fall of 2004.
This resulted in his RE-navigation of ONLY the stage of Replay simply because the issue he had set aside and tried to run from wasn't finished...and so his secondary bout of crisis; consisted of nothing BUT Replay...so, I got the pleasure(sarcasm) of experiencing from him some of the other aspects I'd written about in that particular stage. LOL!!
And you know, even more answers were available to me ahead of time, even I was exiting stage right back in early 2003; I was unable to see them at the time, if I had; I might have run like the d!ckens, no kidding. :)
I was completely unaware of what I was holding ahead of time, until I found confirmation of what I'd been saying about everything needing to faced in order to come out whole and healed nearly six months ago. They'd been right in front of my face back in late 2002; I found them literally immortalized in the archives of the board I had started out on so long ago.
I'll have to share that experience sometime. :)
The fact is; a MLC can last 5 to 7 years if not longer; and if all issues/aspects are NOT faced; it is possible to exit the tunnel into the Settling Down Process, but no farther, as given time, processing will be interrupted and more bouts of crisis will come; related to the initial crisis; but not exactly like.
And if the initial crisis is interrupted or put on hold; given time it WILL return and pick up right at the very place it was left off with additional time added; and it gets much worse than before.
I think my husband also sets the example of how the crisis stages aren't always navigated in a straightforward fashion; that some decisions, issues, aspects are made, faced, settled; and others can be set aside for later on.
The possibilities are endless; but there is ALWAYS hope as long as you still love your MLC spouse, and are willing to stand, doing the work on yourself, regardless of how this comes out in whatever end will come.
Please start focusing on yourselves and let what will come, come when it needs to. Learn to trust the process AND yourselves that you'll handle what you need to handle just fine; and last but most important; lean on your intuition for the answers and guidance you need.
Have a good one. :)
-
so what COULD be considered the "middle" for them; brings you in at a time when you are called upon to begin the work within yourself; but the signs for some reason must be clear; and they don't come any clearer than during Replay
I am interested to know whether my H could be continuing replay where he left off off ten years ago. He had an affair and when things went horribly wrong, he turned back to me (to safe ground) but I don't think he dealt with his issues. He left them to fester under ground with the added issue of infidelity on top. This all exploded into his MLC. So sometimes I wonder whether this is a continuation of a development phase he did not continue at age 30..........leading to stagnation and ultimately into a crisis. He himself understood that OW is just an escape, he never wanted to go down that road again. It was like he had no choice, he had no control (okay I know we are all in control of our own destiny here!!!!) but can we control how we feel about our MLCers, it is very hard! He told me he knows that this will never work and he just cant help himself. I have started to see it as a continuation of replay until he learns what he needs to...........and thus leads to the next step of accepting who he is. Am I crazy to think this way, am I pushing two different events together or are these two separate events.
Would like to have some feedback.........don't know of many on the forum that can help me with this one............perhaps some experienced LBS's??????
Hope that made sense...........useless at writing sometimes so if you need clarification pleeeeeeeeeeeese let me know.
-
I am interested to know whether my H could be continuing replay where he left off off ten years ago. He had an affair and when things went horribly wrong, he turned back to me (to safe ground) but I don't think he dealt with his issues. He left them to fester under ground with the added issue of infidelity on top. This all exploded into his MLC. So sometimes I wonder whether this is a continuation of a development phase he did not continue at age 30..........leading to stagnation and ultimately into a crisis. He himself understood that OW is just an escape, he never wanted to go down that road again. It was like he had no choice, he had no control (okay I know we are all in control of our own destiny here!!!!) but can we control how we feel about our MLCers, it is very hard! He told me he knows that this will never work and he just cant help himself. I have started to see it as a continuation of replay until he learns what he needs to...........and thus leads to the next step of accepting who he is.
Maybe HB will chime in but she has written that if the crisis is not completed and the MLC'er does not face their issues that they will cycle back at a later date to repeat the crisis, only this time it will be much worse.
Tiny Dancer is faced with that now.
So he may be repeating REPLAY or have a new crisis either way it will be much worse than the first one.
You rescued him from the first one and hopefully you learned a lesson that you should not do that again.
Detach, live your life "as if" he is never returning and let him finish up this crisis on his own.
At least that is my .02
-
Thanks OP, I very much appreciate your advice. It is quite confusing for me, there are very few that are in this situation.
-
Personal Message (Online)
Re: MLC & Experts
« Reply #70 on: Today at 02:21:25 PM »
Quote
Quote
so what COULD be considered the "middle" for them; brings you in at a time when you are called upon to begin the work within yourself; but the signs for some reason must be clear; and they don't come any clearer than during Replay
I am interested to know whether my H could be continuing replay where he left off off ten years ago. He had an affair and when things went horribly wrong, he turned back to me (to safe ground) but I don't think he dealt with his issues. He left them to fester under ground with the added issue of infidelity on top. This all exploded into his MLC. So sometimes I wonder whether this is a continuation of a development phase he did not continue at age 30..........leading to stagnation and ultimately into a crisis. He himself understood that OW is just an escape, he never wanted to go down that road again. It was like he had no choice, he had no control (okay I know we are all in control of our own destiny here!!!!) but can we control how we feel about our MLCers, it is very hard! He told me he knows that this will never work and he just cant help himself. I have started to see it as a continuation of replay until he learns what he needs to...........and thus leads to the next step of accepting who he is. Am I crazy to think this way, am I pushing two different events together or are these two separate events.
Would like to have some feedback.........don't know of many on the forum that can help me with this one............perhaps some experienced LBS's??????
Looks to me like these are two DIFFERENT events..he was a WAYWARD spouse at the time of his first affair; instead of bringing his problem(s) out in the open to solve within his marriage; he chose to go OUTSIDE of his marriage to find a solution, committing adultery in that process.
When his affair blew up in his face; he returned to you, but instead of you coming down on him to get to the root of his problem, you and he both swept this under the carpet; he never dealt with the root cause, but you didn't deal with it, either, and because things got better, you let it go.
I know this sounds harsh coming from me; but I suspect it's close to the truth; it's harder to dig deep to figure out what happened than it is to simply let the sleeping dogs lie and hope it doesn't happen again.
Going outside the marriage was a character fault within him; but it would have taken you to have literally forced him to face what it was within himself that drove him into HIS affair; instead of bringing his problem/issue to you at that time.
So he and you came full circle, only to face it again during his MLC; and like you said, he had the added aspect of having committed infidelity on his wife to deal with right along with the issues already present within himself.
For what it's worth, EVERYONE has CHOICES; NO ONE is ever left without a choice. We are each in control of what WE do, we have control of our reactions, and while we still love our MLC spouse, we should not condone their actions toward the marriage.
The crisis is currently driving his reactions, responses; but HE is totally responsible for his decisions; and the actions he takes; and it's easier to just go along for the ride than to stand and fight ones way through.
The MLC fog that clouds their minds is a hard battle to overcome; and they are the only ones who can fight this.
All you can do is focus on yourself; see what you need to do in the way of change, growth, etc...and leave that man twisting in the wind.
You may still love him; but this is the time to focus on YOU, NOT him...he's made his choices for now; right or wrong, and he's made his bed to lie in, right or wrong; hard or soft.
Don't let what he's doing now bring you down; there's nothing you can do for him; only learn to live for yourself.
I hope this helps.
-
I am interested to know whether my H could be continuing replay where he left off off ten years ago. He had an affair and when things went horribly wrong, he turned back to me (to safe ground) but I don't think he dealt with his issues.
This is exactly why you don't just gently, gently take your MLCer back. This is why everything must be RESOLVED. This is why the words HOLDING THEIR CRIMES OVER THEIR HEAD, should never be voiced... but be totally ENFORCED! This crap has to be HELD OVER THEM... if we do not force them to EXAMINE their ISSUES. Then 10 years later, the MONSTER will return. ACCOUNTABILITY, also has the effect that it locks unacceptable behavior, into ones brain, helping to reinforce that that behaviour was really, really bad and if you repeat it, you are going to feel really awful AGAIN.
It's been my experience, no repercussions, no accountability enforced... easy to forget about how outright terrible the behaviour was, all the people it hurt and that WE JUST DO NOT TREAT PEOPLE LIKE THAT... no, no, bad, bad.
Quite frankly, wayward spouse, MLC spouse, not much bloody difference, if you do not HOLD accountable, BIG TIME at the time, then do not be surprised if they REPEAT the behaviour. You probably thought you were being kind, understanding, not holding it over his head, moving on, letting this despicable behaviour go and just continue loving him. Then of course, next to NO changes were done in your marriage. You let this go without holding them accountable, this is going to revisit you later... not a doubt in my mind.
hugs Stayed
-
HB, yes this does help, yes the root of the problem was not dealt with! A fear within me stopped me from exposing the real problem, thinking (naively) that the problem would sort itself out!!!!!!!
In some ways I am thankful for the first affair, (that does not sound right I know) it made me stronger and made me work on myself. But, it also made me shake my head in amazement that this could happen again!!!!
So what are we facing here...........this is the question I keep asking myself? Still trying to answer that one, or is it just my H who is facing himself this time? I'll keep up with my therapy and working on myself, that seems the best way to go right now :)
Thanks HB
-
Stayed..........wow
That is exactly what happened..............I thought if I forgave his sins and loved him unconditionally things would be good again................but instead I ended up with a broken man who was still running from himself!!!!!
There were no consequences, in fact the opposite, I was the one helping him through his adulterous pain and he never once understood that I may be feeling pain too!
-
Without a doubt Dandy Lion, the LBSer can be TOO NICE! This is serious stuff. WE all have to be held accountable. I do not believe for one minute that we cause they to do this, just don't buy that. But as loveisntweakness says, it is a really good time to scrutinize our marriages and honestly evaluate and fortify some things, rebuild others, tweak this and leave that completely alone.
We need to look within ourselves and see what also needs to be changed. What needs to be tougher, more unconditional, more exciting, calmer, whatever... what would be better for ourselves to change. Should we be less DEPENDENT, more dependent, more loving, less loving, more demanding, less demanding... the list goes on and on. Bottom line, what would be best for ourselves and how would the MARRIAGE benefit from these changes.
Of course the spouse has to be evaluated as well. Get those rose coloured glasses off and be prepared to see him / her as he/she really is. What has to change if you are going to continue to have a relationship, marriage... friendship... or NOT!
We OWE it to ourselves after something like this, and even more so, when someone like yourself has already been through this 10 years ago... TO TRULY KNOW, what we want. AT this point DL, you have every right to not even want to be bothered with him. It would certainly be a consideration for me, but having let him have a totally free pass like you did, I think I might feel a second chance is allowed if both of you are in agreement.
For the record, on my Surviving Infidelity Forum/Chat room, there are a lot of people whose spouse had an affair 5 - 10 years ago and here they are again. There are some people whose spouses seem to have a fling every 5 years or so. To my mind, this is something completely different and one is dealing with a serial cheater, not sure you can ever really stop that. That is some sort of Thrill of the catch/adventure/forbidden fruit/excitement of the chase thing, not really MLC.
Start with yourself DL. You truly need to understand what would make you forgive so easily that you actually made it easier for him to live with his betrayal, disloyalty and disrespect to you. Glad you have a counselor and I would not stop until I had a good grip on what made me tick that way.
There are so many people who are terribly AFRAID of HOLDING THIS over their spouses head, forever. I don't buy that. I think you hold onto it until you can see that they really truly regret doing this. Trust is not something that SHOULD BE handed back ... EASILY! Trust is won, earned!
hugs Stayed
-
Thank you Stayed,
How do I access your surviving Infidelity Chat room?
-
Here u go Dandy Lion.
http://www.infidelity-help.com/chatroom/?utm_source=www.infidelity-help.com&utm_medium=banner&utm_campaign=Chatroom%2BBanner%2Bv1
-
Thanks Stayed, really appreciate this :)
-
I've been considering having OP or someone willing to help me to edit that particular post; or at least allow me back into it long enough to retitle it; leaving my initial story within
I don't have to say this but anytime any place.
Send me what to edit and it is done.
-
Thinking about how my H had our MC completely convinced he was ready to reconcile. 28 years in marriage counseling, had some experience with MLC and she was shocked with second BD. Said she is trained to detect the slightest movement in the eye for deception. My H fooled her. Or really, has he fooled himself? Does he believe all the lies he's been telling himself for so long. He must.
I finally told my Aunt about what is going on in my life. She has been a nurse for the past 20 years. We've been having in depth conversations about MLC as she believes she may have gone through a MLC or MLT during my Uncles sickness (he passed away two years ago). Anyway, my Aunt is reading articles from the site. Her take is that as a species we are living longer. 40 is the new 60. So, years ago we would have been dead by the ripe old age of 45-50. Now we live to be 80. Life is hard. It's stressful and complicated. Made sense to her that so much MLC is going on. We're just not made to take it all!!!
I will say that having the false reconciliation with H has been fascinating. I know he loves me. We had fun on our date nights. The sex was good. He would hold me for 30 minutes afterwards--there was love there. But at the same time it was almost more painful then other parts of this journey. After the sex he became distant again. Unable to connect emotionally. It made me truly realize that until he has worked through this, I do not want to be with him.
I learn something new every day on this site. I'm learning new ways to apply the information as my sitch changes.
-
I am not convinced that MLC is brought on by a troubled/unhappy/unpleasant childhood/adolescence. I am sure any of these things would contribute to a person having a crisis but I feel that so many people are now having mid life crisis, it seems incredibly unlikely that SO MANY people had miserable childhoods.
I looked up the divorce rates and the statistics for 20+ years of marriage ending in divorce are really quite horrific. Once again, it seems unlikely to me, that SUDDENLY people after 20 or more years of marriage are unhappy with their partner, supposedly have been almost from day one of the marriage and absolutely everything the partner does makes the MLCer want to throw up and run away.
When my h came out of his crisis, when asked what he felt caused it, he simply said, "I felt like I was growing old and that if I did not take advantage of what YOUTH I had left in me, the window of opportunity would prevent me from ever finding happiness." Whenever I read the articles or comments by DGU, HB, RCR, anybody that this CRISIS is caused by a troubled/ unresolved issues etc. he becomes quite angry. He has continuously maintained, EVERYBODY HAS ISSUES... not everybody did what he did. His childhood wasn't great but it wasn't horrible either. In some ways, he had a good childhood, his parents were very committed to outdoor activities, such as fishing, hunting, hiking and did a lot of that sort of thing. Yes, an all boy family of 4 boys, a fair bit of physical labour, but lets keep in mind, all 4 of these boys were tall, strong, very healthy lads. Heck, I am one of 4, 2 sisters and 1 brother and honestly, I think I did just about as much physical labour as my h and his brothers did. I don't think it did me any harm either.
I found a very interesting article on the increase of divorce with the change in D laws in the late 60's by Pres. Reagan. There is also some speculation about the change in attitude about marriage. Marriage at one time was security, responsibility based on the welfare and safety of the family unit. In the 70's it changed to "soul mate" marriages. A intense, passionate relationship to your mate. Higher expectations of personal happiness over the welfare and over all good of the family.
I have no objections to the inclusion of childhood/teen issues but please could we keep a bit more open mind and admit that there are a lot of reasons why people are having mid life crisis. There is not reason not to honestly consider the fact that we are living longer, that 60 is the new 40, perhaps the idea of 2 being able to remain happy and content for 50/60 years or more, is a bit too much to ask of anybody.
I do not think it is a good idea of giving people such an easy "out". Why does SOMEBODY ELSE always have to be RESPONSIBLE for another persons state of mind. Be it parents, grandparents, school bullies, whatever... perhaps, people just are more concerned about their own personal well being then they are about each other and the spouses they marry and the children they produce from their union.
hugs Stayed
-
Interesting perspective, stayed, and one that resonates. If childhood issues were everything, then it would be me doing this, not H. Of course he has issues, but it certainly doesn't stem from not having been loved. In my case the bit about growing old and wanting the window of opportunity resonates much more -- my H has said as much as well.
If there were any childhood issues then they would be about not really talking things through, which is of course a big thing, but it isn't the same as having had a horrible childhood. From what I can see, he wants now to do everything that he feels he missed out on for whatever reason. Yes, his childhood formed him and he certainly is determined not to live the way his parents did, but fear of aging and the weight of responsibility to me explains much more than anything else.
As does the idea that looking at me reminds him of all his inadequacies.
And yes, those high expectations....
And so it goes....
-
I have to agree with much of what you said Stayed - my H has ISSUES from childhood, overbearing mother, high expectations in a father that he could never quite meet, that sort of thing. But it is a FAR cry from being verbally or physically abused or neglected.
I think that SO many factors come in to play, not least the innate personality of the person in crisis.
My H has a history of being a "people pleaser" an "accomodator", maybe some of that is environmental going back to the way he was raised, but how much of it is just his nature? Furthermore, it is do with perception too.
My H may feel that other people influenced where he is at in his life - things he "missed out" on or whatever.
But I was there with H from the time he was 18.
No one ever had a gun at his head.
He just was always less scared of the easy route. He is risk averse and did what was expected of him even when presented with viable alternatives. I remember somethng that we did when we were younger that was exciting and adventurous but by no means "unusual", and he got physically sick from nerves ahead of time - he was vomiting in the toilet which I found very strange (I was doing it too and it did not wind me up like that).
He would consider a career change or something and then ultimately freak out and decide to do the safest thing. It WAS his CHOICE!!!
The person holding him back in life was HIM, not his mother, not EVEN his father, and definitely not me. It was HIM.
People know that mental health issues OFTEN have a strong genetic component.
Everything about us has a strong genetic component and I think that for some people there may be significant childhood issues that need to be addressed, but I don't buy that being the whole story.
I also wonder if living longer, coupled with a materialistic, individualistic , youth obsessed and throw away culture in the context of relatively wealthy, time rich, educated societies has more to do with MLC than we willingly accept.
-
No one ever had a gun at his head.
The person holding him back in life was HIM, not his mother, not EVEN his father, and definitely not me. It was HIM.
People know that mental health issues OFTEN have a strong genetic component.
Everything about us has a strong genetic component and I think that for some people there may be significant childhood issues that need to be addressed, but I don't buy that being the whole story.
I also wonder if living longer, coupled with a materialistic, individualistic , youth obsessed and throw away culture in the context of relatively wealthy, time rich, educated societies has more to do with MLC than we willingly accept.
S&D you could have been talking about my HUSBAND! And this statement, omg, I so agree...I also wonder if living longer, coupled with a materialistic, individualistic , youth obsessed and throw away culture in the context of relatively wealthy, time rich, educated societies has more to do with MLC than we willingly accept.
OH YES!!!! I totally believe this!
TrustandLove, the number of LBS's I have met who like you, SHOULD HAVE HAD AN MLC, instead of their spouse, if you looked at their childhood vs their MLC spouse... give me a dollar for everyone I have read about and I would be a rich lady.
hugs Stayed
-
I had a brief rest from the forum and can't really leave the forum alone it is so interesting, and the cartoons of course are brilliant.
Refering to Stayed a few entries ago, I agree that the pressures of European / American attitudes has much to do with a potential panic that youth is slipping away, which accounts for the juvenile behaviour. The implication of some missing development in childhood or youth makes me think that this lack of experience makes the Mid lifer not be equiped to deal with this panic. In blind panic our brains may overload and not cope properly. Some of us are more mentally strong.
If you have had a number of boyfriend girlfrend relationships and you met up later in life with some chancer when your guard was down you would have the experince (maybe) to recognise a chancer for who he is.
I maintain that probably we have all been through these experiences that our partners are struggling with, but we probably had the experience, or witnessed someone else have this experience, so that we dealt with it in a way that damged few other people.
That is why this Forum is so valuable. Knowledge is King, the more you read the more you build up your own immunity to being damaged. We gain strength from the experience of many many people here and we filter it to suite our own situation.
We become our own experts in our own situation. That is the best we can do. Hopefully we can use that knowledge to understand and help those less fortunate.
-
Stayed,
I believe my H's MLC has much to do with his Narcisstic mother and the fact that he had stuffed his feelings for so long - I don't think he even knew how to express what he felt or even knew HOW or what to feel.
As my H wasn't the only child in the family and, thus, the only one impacted by his mother's selfishness - why did his other siblings not have MLC's?
I remember reading a book years ago - I think it was called "Kaleidoscope." It was the story of three women who had all been raised in the same family under very terrible conditions. The story followed the lives of these women as they grew to adulthood - the three led very different lives with their own sets of problems. One of the women, especially, had a very difficult life - as she struggled more than her sisters - unable to have a successful relationship with anyone or truly find love in her life. Her sisters were able to marry, have children, and lead somewhat normal lives. Even though the three has pretty much endured the terrible childhood - only one of the three seemed to truly suffer from it. The gist of the story was that their lives were like a "Kaleidoscope" - where all you had to do was turn the chamber ever so slightly - and the resulting picture was a completely different view.
My H's siblings have had issues of their own. While, I believe, they all have addiction issues - my H was the only one who seemed to face consequences - i.e. DUI's, money issues, drug issues. In any family that is run by a Narcissistic mother - there is a golden child and a scapegoat. My H was the scapegoat - blamed for all, never able to do anything right - while his brother was the golden child, completely adored by his mother. n His father adored the younger sister. From what I understand - all three lived in fear of her wrath and her acid tongue. All three grew up adept at lying and hiding their true selves and lives. Now, that H is back "home" living with Mom and Dad - he has now become the "golden child" - while his sister and brother (who moved away from Mommy) are no longer "preferred."
Many of my H's issues (I believe) come from a need to be accepted and approved of by his mother. How unbelieveable is it that he had to abandon his own family to gain his mother's approval? It's really sad, actually.
Additionally, I can now see that my H put me in this "mother" role through much of our marriage. And, now, at Midlife - he resents that I have been in this role and rejects me.
Crazy, crazy, crazy.
Even though raised by the same parents, living in the same house - each child has a slightly different experience and, thus, either learns their own set of coping skills - or lives a life of avoidance. My H is the latter. Run, hide, avoid. He was an MLC just, like a ticking bomb, just waiting to go off.
Anyway...that is how I see it.
L
-
Hi. I think its a combination of things. I think my h's bad childhood made him insecure and to feel worthless. And that in turn causes him to make bad choices. He has always put his wants first. He has always worked out a lot. I think he thinks if he looks good on the outside he will feel better inside. Still hasn't figured out that its not working. One of the things he said to me was that i stopped loving him when the kids were born. We have a 7s and 3d. What he doesn't realize is that people grow and change within a marriage and that I couldn't just walk out the door and go for a run with him anymore. I had babies (still do!). My life changed and I adjusted. He did not. He also said that he " didn't want to wait another six years to do things with me". WTH! We have a seven year old and three year old! He's 38 and I'm 37. Still very young for heavens sake. But je wants to do what he wants to do. What he doesn't understand is rhat he should be raising his kids right now. Personal gratification has its place but not at the expense of your family. What he will regret is letting his kids grow up without him. I don't k.ow how you can ever reconcile that.
-
S&D,
I agree with you and Stayed about childhood issues being a part but not the whole story - my father, in fact, pointed it out to me - comparing his own difficult childhood to husband's and saying that he didn't go into crisis because of the death of his sister and the disappearance of his father for a good part of the II WW, or because of debilitating asthma, which cost him a year at school. Ok, my husband does have issues with his parents divorce, his father's MLC and premature death, but I also think that what Stayed husband said comes in to play he simply said, "I felt like I was growing old and that if I did not take advantage of what YOUTH I had left in me, the window of opportunity would prevent me from ever finding happiness."
and the fact that we are living longer, coupled with a materialistic, individualistic , youth obsessed and throw away culture in the context of relatively wealthy, time rich, educated societies has more to do with MLC than we willingly accept.
My father went through his own transition when I was 16-20 and he faced serious health issues at the time, coupled with a desire to become a minister of the church, when he was tested for it, it was found that he has an IQ of a genius level - the shock of finding this out rendered him speechless for a few days and my mother said all he could say was 'why me?' - he had a very underprivileged early life and loved school - he used to offer to do the dishes just so that he could use the only light in the house to read by. He rose from coffee clerk to assistant draftsman in an engineering firm in three weeks - nowadays he is a highly respected piping engineer with published articles all over the world. He put himself through nightschool, while working full time and still works full time at the age of 76. His transition was played out far from home because he was on a project, however he had a good mentor to help him through and my mother held the fort back at home with 6 teenagers! They are from the generation that Stayed mentions There is also some speculation about the change in attitude about marriage. Marriage at one time was security, responsibility based on the welfare and safety of the family unit.
and my h. seems to have bought into the 'soul mate' philosophy.
Like you S&D, this could have been about my h.My H has a history of being a "people pleaser" an "accomodator", maybe some of that is environmental going back to the way he was raised, but how much of it is just his nature? Furthermore, it is do with perception too.
My H may feel that other people influenced where he is at in his life - things he "missed out" on or whatever.
But I was there with H from the time he was 18.
No one ever had a gun at his head.
He just was always less scared of the easy route. He is risk averse and did what was expected of him even when presented with viable alternatives. I remember somethng that we did when we were younger that was exciting and adventurous but by no means "unusual", and he got physically sick from nerves ahead of time - he was vomiting in the toilet which I found very strange (I was doing it too and it did not wind me up like that).
He would consider a career change or something and then ultimately freak out and decide to do the safest thing. It WAS his CHOICE!!!
The person holding him back in life was HIM, not his mother, not EVEN his father, and definitely not me. It was HIM.
Especially the part of always wanting to be on the safe side! - I used to encourage him to be more adventurous, more spontaneous... He would always try to argue me down, referring to safety issues or that he was too old for some things.
At BD, he said that I didn't want to have fun any more :o
He also suffered terribly from anxiety, in fact the initial part of his MLC was diagnosed as Anxiety Disorder, a comorbidity from having ADHD! This by a psychiatrist who supposedly knew him. So mental health issues get a tick here too!
Of course, now there is nothing wrong with him, only me ::)
The fact that OW is a psychologist doesn't help matters either...
-
as far as i know hubby had a great childhood. was very much loved. i think getting older suddenly hit him and he was overworked. might be wrong but thats my thinking. i did not have the best childhood. even now my mum did not see me for 4 months after BD. has still not to this day asked how im doing. i promised my self before i had kids i would be a good mum. i love my mum very much but was never treated as a daughter. i had counselling 10 years ago so i could become a foster carer. i dealt with all my issues and it was the best thing i ever done. i hope one day my family comes back complete again but if it does not im determined to still be a good person and mother and carry on enjoying life ;D
-
I would like to throw a few things into this great discussion.
I believe that the notion of childhood issues causing/contributing to MLC is valid. Those issues That are NOT FACED and dealt with at the time, become MLC issues.
Seemingly positive aspects can have an impact as well. For example.
"My grandfather worked hard, loved and was dedicated to his family and then he died."
"My neighbors lost everything. It drove my ambition to succeed."
Fears rooted in childhood seem pervasive to me, especially when you broaden the perspective past dysfunctional families.
-
Here is an interesting article I found. It is called
The Evolution of Divorce
Prior to the late 1960s, Americans were more likely to look at marriage and family through the prisms of duty, obligation, and sacrifice. A successful, happy home was one in which intimacy was an important good, but by no means the only one in view. A decent job, a well-maintained home, mutual spousal aid, child-rearing, and shared religious faith were seen almost universally as the goods that marriage and family life were intended to advance.
But the psychological revolution's focus on individual fulfillment and personal growth changed all that. Increasingly, marriage was seen as a vehicle for a self-oriented ethic of romance, intimacy, and fulfillment. In this new psychological approach to married life, one's primary obligation was not to one's family but to one's self; hence, marital success was defined not by successfully meeting obligations to one's spouse and children but by a strong sense of subjective happiness in marriage — usually to be found in and through an intense, emotional relationship with one's spouse. The 1970s marked the period when, for many Americans, a more institutional model of marriage gave way to the "soul-mate model" of marriage.
Of course, the soul-mate model was much more likely to lead couples to divorce court than was the earlier institutional model of marriage. Now, those who felt they were in unfulfilled marriages also felt obligated to divorce in order to honor the newly widespread ethic of expressive individualism.
here is the link to the entire article
http://www.nationalaffairs.com/publications/detail/the-evolution-of-divorce
I'm not saying that our familial situations didn't help to predispose us to an MLC, I am simply saying it is not the only contributing factor. I understand also that not everybody copes as well as others, but seriously we have become not only a society of prosperity, entitlement etc. but we make EXCUSES for just about anything anybody does. If somebody killed somebody senselessly and brutally, then we look at the murderers childhood. Absolutely everything these days has a REASON for why they did this or that. All I am wondering, WHERE DOES IT END? When do we simply call a spade a spade and admit, we REALLY DON'T KNOW. If all of these things really truly caused things like this to happen, then why doesn't EVERYBODY who had that type of life do exact same thing.
You see, the truth is... some do and some don't. There is no absolute CAUSATION of anything. There is no way of predicting who will do such and such a thing, or not.
My goodness, these comments have opened up a floodgate of discussion... so cool.
Mitzpah, I simply have to respond to this:
Especially the part of always wanting to be on the safe side! - I used to encourage him to be more adventurous, more spontaneous... He would always try to argue me down, referring to safety issues or that he was too old for some things.
At BD, he said that I didn't want to have fun any more
This WAS totally my h. He even used my words to blame me for why he did what he did. He told me at one point that my comment about him being AFRAID TO TAKE A RISK... motivated him to continue on with OW. He felt it was a sign that he was suppose to take more RISKS... I said to him months after we reconciled, WhyTH did you choose CHEATING/BETRAYING/DISRESPECTING me, as your big RISK???? :o like what the h???
Loving this everybody, thanks for participating... hehehe
hugs Stayed
-
Why do people always find their soulmate when they are already married? Soulmate is such bulls**t! Love is a choice.
-
Stillhopeful,
Because they can't say that they just left their longterm spouse, broke up the family and abandoned their kids for someone who is just a "hook up." Part of the insistence on this new person being a "soul mate" is to legitimize it and convince the world that this is true love and, thus, worth throwing everything away for.
Hence....Soul Mate Schmoopies.
L
-
True dat! ;D
Stayed
-
soulmates
My H sent a goodbye letter saying we HAD been soulmates, best friends, lovers.
(I guess our "souls" stopped "mating") :o :o :o.
When I brought up the letter after he had left (I found it some weeks after his departure), his response was: "Oh, I wrote that letter before we went to MCing" WTF does that mean? I still have no idea what he was "trying" to say.
::) ::) ::)
-
I'm not saying that our familial situations didn't help to predispose us to an MLC, I am simply saying it is not the only contributing factor. I understand also that not everybody copes as well as others, but seriously we have become not only a society of prosperity, entitlement etc. but we make EXCUSES for just about anything anybody does. If somebody killed somebody senselessly and brutally, then we look at the murderers childhood. Absolutely everything these days has a REASON for why they did this or that. All I am wondering, WHERE DOES IT END? When do we simply call a spade a spade and admit, we REALLY DON'T KNOW. If all of these things really truly caused things like this to happen, then why doesn't EVERYBODY who had that type of life do exact same thing.
Stayed I whole heartedly agree with you on this. It's kind of like when my kids played T-ball. It's what the younger ones play before they play real baseball. Nobody lost, everyone won, no score was kept. I often wonder if it is why we have a society of kids who now have such a sense of entiltlement. Fast forward 20 or so years. Will these same kids think there are no rules, no losers, I am entitled to my happiness no matter how I get it.
-
From MLC Overview article
"Aging does not cause midlife crisis--it is inevitable; midlife crisis is not. Since midlife crisis seems to be isolated to technologically advanced Western cultures lacking in ritual rites of passage, ageism is often blamed, but it is also not a cause of midlife crisis; rather it is an incubator, providing ideal cultural conditions. Symptoms are outward manifestations, not the cause of the crisis."
-
That's my worry too Growing every day. I see less and less accountability all the time. We are constantly telling us LBS's that we must take responsibility for our part in this mess. Yet we continuously make excuses for our MLCer, he/she is out their minds. WE must go gently or they will run back to their cave. Hello, maybe they should stay in their "caves" until they have it figured out, quit coming out and peeking at us, seeing if we have stayed where they left us, say something ignorant or indifferent again, and get all p*ssy when we say something they don't like.
Hellllllllllllllllllloooooooooooo! There is no way of playing this, so totally forget about your MLCer, let them do whatever they are going to do and totally EMPOWER YOURSELF. Grow strong. Figure out what you would really like to see happen in your life, then go and get it. I know, easy said, hard to do, but for goodness sake, we have to stop with the POOR MLCer... I don't know how they got there, I might have contributed, I might not have... but I eventually got to the point where I didn't care anymore. He either figured it our or he didn't.
As you all know, he figured it out. The longer we have been out of this, the more I realize the LBSer has nothing to do with this... but we sure make the difference if they decide to return.
Dontgiveup, how can you say that with such ABSOLUTISM! How can you deny that age does NOT cause the crisis, with such authority, such 100% certainty? How is that our CHILDHOOD / teens cause us all kinds of ISSUES when we become adults, yet growing old has ABSOLUTELY no part in the issues that we are all seeing CLEARLY MANIFEST before our very eyes?
Who says this stuff? Good old Jim Conway, HB, RCR, last two who freely admit neither of them are psychologists or have much more then 1 semester of psychology at university? The stuff I am reading doesn't DISMISS mid life crisis as nothing to do with AGE. Why would it materialize with AGE especially around the 40-50 point, if age had nothing to do with it?
Does it make people feel better to be able to somehow make this about our spouses childhood? Blame on the terrible parenting we all go. What? I just don't get it?
hugs Stayed
-
"The stuff I am reading doesn't DISMISS mid life crisis as nothing to do with AGE."
The information below does not say age has nothing to do with MLC. It says age is an incubator.....just not the cause.
"ageism is often blamed, but it is also not a cause of midlife crisis; rather it is an incubator, providing ideal cultural conditions. Symptoms are outward manifestations, not the cause of the crisis."
Also, the information does not necessarily say bad childhood. It says unresolved issues from childhood/adolescence. The three emotional components that seem to typically be associated with this are love, self-esteem and coping skills.
-
I'm no expert and can only speak through my own experience but my husband has said throughout this period that he is terrified of growing old. He fears he will be irrelevant, disregarded, considered a stodgy, doddering old fool. He does not want to lose his looks, his faculties, live in pain, be incapable of doing the things he likes to do.
His issues began shortly before his 45th birthday and that was the birthday he started grumbling about as it approached...to the point of being nasty when the impending birthday was brought up.
Since I'm three years older than he, he has constantly asked me how it is I can handle the fact that I am aging since "the quest for youth, the dismissal of the elderly...it's everywhere around you, all day, each day...how can it not bother you??????".
Honestly, he's asked me that probably 30 times in the last three years.
His childhood issues may have contributed to this but honestly, if at all, only a bit in my opinion...I think a lack of self esteem probably fueled this to some extent but there is no way he had so many unresolved issues that it would explain his behavior. I truly feel that his lack of self esteem and the culture of youth, the high regard placed on looks and money and youth, and the lack of morality and accountability all played a part in this.
I have told him the following...you either grow old or you die. If you are lucky enough to grow old and you choose to be miserable throughout, then you are wasting the precious time you've been given and that is one hell of a shame. Surround yourself with people your own age who understand, surround yourself with people who love you and don't give a fig how old you are, and value the time and wisdom you've been given and consider it a gift. Shame on you if you don't.
If you want to fight your age, that's ok in some innocuous ways...stay fit, use lotions...whatever. But if you want to regress and time travel back to being a 20 year old, then you're a fool because all you will have accomplished will be to have romantized a period that frankly, wasn't as great as you now remember it and you'll expose yourself as an old geezer trying to look like a teenager....and with that you will assure yourself exactly what you feared the most..that people will think you're an old fool.
I believe that these statements have helped him. They were said once I had figured out that he was just fearing his age. I believe it needed to be said and said often and said clearly as he has regurgitated these very things to me and has claimed they are helpful to him in the last year or so.
I have yet to see how this MLC is rooted in his childhood in any substantial way. Maybe it did indeed happen because he was immature and that could be a childhood issue...I don't know and at this point, I'm really not even sure that I care to be quite honest. I've analyzed it to death and all I've ever had firm and positive evidence of is his fear of aging. And that is something he's just going to have to deal with as we all do. It isn't an excuse to go off the rails. Certainly this terror has caused him to go into a depression and I believe that is where the fog came in as that can happen but he isn't mentally ill...not pathologically at least. Either way, it still is not an excuse and he's going to have to face his issues and the issues he caused me as well.
-
You know, I am wondering if all this is about accountability?
Years ago my nephew started driving. He passed his driving test and had a succession of accidents. My brother kept repairing and replacing cars because 'none of these accidents were nephews fault'.
It's like no fault divorce. If you are not accountable you have no responsibility.
An old joke, 'My mother in law has never been in an accident, but she has seen thousands'. :-)
I have just realised what Stayed is saying.
If you don't have any accountability you can play a game forever, stay in your tunnel or cave as everyone else has to worry about it.
For 2 years I have voluntarily paid my wife maintenance. She has not looked for a job. Its the easy way out always.
I suppose in this life there are always passengers.
Maybe I am detaching or just losing patience.
Is the Titanic sinking? No, play another tune.
-
Bon Bon
Yes, my ex-wife made statements about growing older as well. I think that's what RCR is referring to as an outward manifestation....or a symptom.
From Bon Bon
"I think a lack of self esteem probably fueled this to some extent but there is no way he had so many unresolved issues that it would explain his behavior."
Dr Dobson touches on this in Conway's book "Women in Midlife Crisis". Self-esteem is one of the emotional pieces that is specifically mentioned. I'm not sure that the MLCer has to have many unresolved issues. I think it's more about what those specific issues are, including self-esteem and coping skills.
And the point that Dr Dobson and Conway....and others.....have made is that self-esteem is developed during childhood/adolescence, so that is the correlation.
From Bon Bon
"I truly feel that his lack of self esteem and the culture of youth, the high regard placed on looks and money and youth, and the lack of morality and accountability all played a part in this."
I agree with the above....and I think I have seen those things referred to by RCR as "catalysts" for the MLC.
"But if you want to regress and time travel back to being a 20 year old, then you're a fool because all you will have accomplished will be to have romantized a period that frankly, wasn't as great as you now remember it and you'll expose yourself as an old geezer trying to look like a teenager....and with that you will assure yourself exactly what you feared the most..that people will think you're an old fool."
And this in many cases is a very good description of what happens during the MLC process before Liminality.
From Bon Bon
"I've analyzed it to death and all I've ever had firm and positive evidence of is his fear of aging."
Yes, because the evidence is the symptoms. Symptoms help us to "diagnose".
-
Yes, because the evidence is the symptoms. Symptoms help us to "diagnose".
Be careful... diagnosing = wanting to fix
wanting to fix = not detaching.
-
There are a lot of moving parts to a MLC, childhood issues is one of them, maybe age, hormones, depression, body chemistry, triggers, the LBS and maybe something else that I am leaving out.
You can not blame any single one of these things as the CAUSE, it is the perfect storm and they are all the ingredients.
Authors of midlife topics include Conway,(Jim and Sally), Jed Diamond, Understanding Men's Passages by Gail Sheehy and others.
So when HB,RCR,DGU repeat what they have learned I do not cast doubt on it.
I have read the same material.
I think if you read the above book by Sheehy you will see that different events happen in our lives and every 10 years or so their can be a transition, and those can lead to a crisis if the conditions are right.
Although I agree with everything else that you wrote, there is no way to PLAY this, other than what you said STAYED
-
The dictionary says
Diagnosis;
Definition: identification of problem, disease
Notes: a diagnosis: the process of identifying or determining the nature of a diseased condition or the conclusion reached
No mention of fixing, they leave that to us and one way is to diagnose the symptoms you see and detach as part of our movement forward whilst the MLC works it out.
-
Anyway, my Aunt is reading articles from the site. Her take is that as a species we are living longer. 40 is the new 60. So, years ago we would have been dead by the ripe old age of 45-50. Now we live to be 80. Life is hard. It's stressful and complicated.
Well, first I certainly hope youn meant that 60 is the new 40…otherwise I might start my own MLC!
These are common ideas and they are actually inaccurate. Just because the average lifespan at the start oif the 20th century was ~49 does not mean a person was considered old at 49. It did not mean people thought that they were close to death and were moving in with their kids. They were still 49. The average age of mortality is measured for the entire age range. Infant mortality was high and there were many others who survived infancy, but not childhood. Those early deaths broguht the average down significantly. Then what about casualties of war? And what about the possibly common incidents of deaths by acciedent and injury—farming accidents, hunting accidents… Those people did not consider themselves old and yet they died.
Even now when researchers look at age groups and mortality they sometimes give averages within groups. So a woman between 60-69 may have a certain risk of dying within the next 5 years. That risk is different for different age ranges and for some it is higher at younger ranges, goes down and then goes back up—think young adult men.
People lived into their 80s 100, 200,300 and 2000 years ago. Not as many lived that long because some of those robust individuals died in accidents or war or just the harsher conditions of life they may have had then as compared to now.
I think it was the book Sex at Dawn that went over some of this—and I was so relieved to see someone finally admit it.
I am not convinced that MLC is brought on by a troubled/unhappy/unpleasant childhood/adolescence…
When my husband came out of his crisis, when asked what he felt caused it, he simply said, "I felt like I was growing old and that if I did not take advantage of what YOUTH I had left in me, the window of opportunity would prevent me from ever finding happiness." Whenever I read the articles or comments by DGU, HB, RCR, anybody that this CRISIS is caused by a troubled/ unresolved issues etc. he becomes quite angry. He has continuously maintained, EVERYBODY HAS ISSUES... not everybody did what he did. His childhood wasn't great but it wasn't horrible either.
… I have no objections to the inclusion of childhood/teen issues but please could we keep a bit more open mind and admit that there are a lot of reasons why people are having mid life crisis. There is not reason not to honestly consider the fact that we are living longer, that 60 is the new 40, perhaps the idea of 2 being able to remain happy and content for 50/60 years or more, is a bit too much to ask of anybody.
Sweetheart had a great childhood too. That does not mean there are not issues, of course everyone has issues. It’s about the ability to deal with those issues, it’s about coping skills and many may seem to have acceptable coping skills until something strikes. It may be an external event—death, weather, terrorism, illness… That even may bring up thoughts that brings up buried or repressed issues. I am not into blaming the inner child—I hate that term because I associate it with excuses. But that does not mean that our history stays history. It influences who we were, who are and who we become.
Looking at Sweetheart’s childhood I can find a few things, but they aren’t about the type of trauma we think of. His cousin drowned on a family picnic—he was 12 or 13. Around that same time his sister’s Lupus became active—she was also about puberty age. She apparently spent months at Children’s Hospital and she almost died.
When he was a bit younger—maybe 6-8(?) His Dad was in an explosion at work. I don’t knnow how long he was in the hospital—days or weeks(?)—but I think he spent a lot of time recovering at home also.
None of those incidents were preventable or blamable. They were not about abuse or violence, they were accidents and an illness. Did they contribute significantly? I don’t know. Did he feel he was losing the love of his parents while it was focused on Dad or his sister? I don’t know.
But that does not mean I think the Shadow force is not significant in everyone. And I mean everyone MLC or not. I think it is something we all deal with at life transitions—which we all go through. Whether those become a crisis is influenced by the level of issues within those shadows—so greater trauma in childhood may mean a person is at greater risk—or not. But I think what is more important is their level of coping skills. There are many people out there who had horrific childhoods but learned then or later to cope and have become successful and managed to cope well through their life transisitons. And there are many people who had healthy childhoods with little to no trauma who have poor coping skills and are at greater risk.
Forget trauma for a moment and consider parenting. Did Mom coddle? Was Dad hard to please? Were one or both oversheltering so that their children did not learn independence well? What sort of adult lives(coping, critical thinking, social…) did their parents and other adult figures model? Dependence, codependence, independence, partnerships…? How did those authority figures deal with conflict? Childhood is an important place to look, not for the purpose of rooting out trauma and abuse but to look for what the then child was taught, how that child was prepared for becoming an adult. Part of that preparation for adulthood is in preparing for look-backs—how to handle those unresolved issues when they do surface.
As for Stayed’s husband’s words about it being about losing youth…that is a common MLC symptom. Unfortunately it has been spread around many professional articles as the only symptom—MLC is about aging, the fear of death and wanting to prevent it. Many professionals consider that to be the litmus test for whether a person is in MLC or not. A person’s MLC may have that as a part of it, but it is not a requirement for MLC. It is a regression to youth even when the person does not recongize it as such. And Stayed’s husband was able to articulate it amazingly well—that is unusual. Maybe that is because he is through the crisis, but even then I find his articulation amazing.
Consider this.
If MLC is in part about reintegrating missed pieces of earlier development, the MLCEr may regress to the age at which those pieces are typically integrated—or the age directly preceding. But if a person does not know this is the reason for the age regression, they may come to other conclusions for the regression. It seems an easier answer to say the person doesn’t want to grow older or that they are afraid of growing older or that they are losing their youth. They may interpret it this way too—because who is going to intelectualize it to the level that they think of it in terms of Ericksonian Development. It’s a lot easier to say they are afraid they are lsoing their youth.
That doesn’t mean that the fear of losing youth is also a valid contributer, but just because a person thinks that is the reason for their behaviour does not mean they are correct or that they are not also missing other reasons. I find self-reporting to be one of the least reliable forms.
I do not think it is a good idea of giving people such an easy "out". Why does SOMEBODY ELSE always have to be RESPONSIBLE for another persons state of mind. Be it parents, grandparents, school bullies, whatever... perhaps, people just are more concerned about their own personal well being then they are about each other and the spouses they marry and the children they produce from their union.
This is one of the greatest misunderstandings. People so often think that searching for reasons and patahways leading to present behavior is the same as looking for excuses. There is evidence that children who are sexually abused may have a higher risk of becoming sexual abusers. That doesn’t mean they will and it doesn’t mean they will not. It also doesn’t mean that their damaged childhood removes them from culpability. But it does give us a pattern to explore when we are considering prevention and it gives us something that may be useful in therapy with abusers. Why one person abuses may be different than why another person abuses and those two peope need help specific to themselvse, not to the other person.
MLC is not an excuse; it is an explanatory label. It’s not a get out of jail free card, but understanding a what lead a person to their present state can help us with compassion, empathy and it can help the helpers.
I found a very interesting article on the increase of divorce with the change in divorce laws in the late 60's by Pres. Reagan. There is also some speculation about the change in attitude about marriage. Marriage at one time was security, responsibility based on the welfare and safety of the family unit. In the 70's it changed to "soul mate" marriages. A intense, passionate relationship to your mate. Higher expectations of personal happiness over the welfare and over all good of the family.
This is much of what the Calition for Divorce Reform has been studying and using to spread the word.
Divorce rates skyrocketed with No-Fault laws and the idea of love and marriage changed either at the same time independently or with the laws—perhaps preceding the law and motivating some of the changes.
Is that the same as MLC?
No?
Has it influenced MLC?
Of course.
It has also made it easier for someone in MLC to just leave, where 50 years ago that same person might have suffered through. That person may also have been more likely to get stuck since both partners may have felt forced to remain married—though that may not have been the case at all. Maybe feeling forced to stay together also encouraged them to work through the crisis. I admit to being doubtful, but I have not studied that.
I also wonder if living longer, coupled with a materialistic, individualistic , youth obsessed and throw away culture in the context of relatively wealthy, time rich, educated societies has more to do with MLC than we willingly accept.
OH YES!!!! I totally believe this!
Other than the living longer portion, yes I think this is a major factor. But that does not mean upbringing, traumatic or other is not also a factor. It’s a perfect storm that can be prevented before it happens, but once it has started the person needs to see it through.
The implication of some missing development in childhood or youth makes me think that this lack of experience makes the Mid lifer not be equiped to deal with this panic. In blind panic our brains may overload and not cope properly. Some of us are more mentally strong.
Missing Development is not synonymous with abuse or some other trauma. Whose development is perfect? We are all missing something! How we handle that missing piece when it surfaces for integration makes a difference.[/i]
If you have had a number of boyfriend girlfrend relationships and you met up later in life with some chancer when your guard was down you would have the experince (maybe) to recognise a chancer for who he is.
I maintain that probably we have all been through these experiences that our partners are struggling with, but we probably had the experience, or witnessed someone else have this experience, so that we dealt with it in a way that damged few other people.
That is why this Forum is so valuable. Knowledge is King, the more you read the more you build up your own immunity to being damaged. We gain strength from the experience of many many people here and we filter it to suite our own situation.
We become our own experts in our own situation. That is the best we can do. Hopefully we can use that knowledge to understand and help those less fortunate.
…we make EXCUSES for just about anything anybody does. …Absolutely everything these days has a REASON for why they did this or that.
This is where I find we are limited by langauge.
Excuses does not equal excusable.
Reason does not equal reasonable.
But shouldn’t they? That would make sense and linguistically they are probably meant to work as equals. I want a word that means what I am saying—something has a reason but is not reasonable, excusable or justifiable…but what is the word?
So we use the terms reason and excuse and don’t mean reasonable and excusable, but we have to qualify that so people know what we mean and things feel so unclear. Maybe there are words and I am just not thinking of them.
From MLC Overview article
"Aging does not cause midlife crisis--it is inevitable; midlife crisis is not. Since midlife crisis seems to be isolated to technologically advanced Western cultures lacking in ritual rites of passage, ageism is often blamed, but it is also not a cause of midlife crisis; rather it is an incubator, providing ideal cultural conditions. Symptoms are outward manifestations, not the cause of the crisis."
Dontgiveup, how can you say that with such ABSOLUTISM! How can you deny that age does NOT cause the crisis, with such authority, such 100% certainty? How is that our CHILDHOOD / teens cause us all kinds of ISSUES when we become adults, yet growing old has ABSOLUTELY no part in the issues that we are all seeing CLEARLY MANIFEST before our very eyes?
…Why would it materialize with AGE especially around the 40-50 point, if age had nothing to do with it?
Because if aging caused it, we’d all have an MLC. Well, that is a simplistic answer and of course not true since not everyone gets a disease that is caused by something the person is doing or has. Aging is just a factor, not a cause.
But I think you’ve hit on an even bigger topic of debate—one I just cringe over. There are a lot of people who do not believe in MLC because of the label midlife crisis. They look at the symptoms and wow, people that are not in midlife match those too—even for the timelines. They may accept the crisis portion of the label, but refuse to even have anything to do with it because of the inappropriate age term midlife. There was a thread over on the marriageadvocates forum about this and that was much of the basis for refusing to even include MLC as anything important for their posters. People can be in what we call MLC at 25, 30 70…
Well, at what age is it more common?
I think that makes a difference, there are always going to be statistical outlyers. But also maybe the label is inaccurate. My argument is not indefense of the label, then, but in defense of using the label.
I use it because it is already accepted and recognized. But because the label points us to an age range we have an bias linked as an affirmation—so we are constantly sending ourselves the message that this crisis is for those within a midlife age range. But is that true—maybe, maybe not. Back on that thread—almost a year ago—I said we could change the term to something like (I can’t recall my suggestion, so I’m thinking of what it might have been) Existential Life Crisis, Life Identity Crisis… those aren’t catchy like midlife crisis—but maybe midlife crisis is only catchy because we are accustomed to it.
But I also find it is the term I must use because it is the term you will look for. I would have very few people here receiving help if I used a term nonhe of you would google when looking for help. Do you blow your nose with tissue or Kleenex? Technically I just use toilet paper! But Kleenex is the brand name, not the name of the item. Or what about owies? Do you put a Band Aid on your owie or a plastic strip? You might be using Curad brand, but you probably still call it a Band Aid.
The people I was talking to over at Marriage Advocates refuse to believe in the existence of midlife crisis because of the label, but if I’m recalling correctly, they did not seem to have a problem believing in the crisis as I described it symptomatically—not that they read my articles, but within the discussion of the thread.
Does it make people feel better to be able to somehow make this about our spouses childhood? Blame on the terrible parenting we all go. What? I just don't get it?
The information does not necessarily say bad childhood. It says unresolved issues from childhood/adolescence. The three emotional components that seem to typically be associated with this are love, self-esteem and coping skills
I have yet to see how this MLC is rooted in his childhood in any substantial way.
How about changing the language? Childhood seems to be a loaded term. MLC is rooted in unresolved developmental pieces. Age is not a root—it’s the present, so it’s a branch of the tree, not a root. The tree is made up of the roots, the trunk and the branches. MLC is a factor of all of those pieces of the tree, not just one. Suppose childhood was perfect and somethin g triggers a person into MLC. It doesn’t mean their childhood caused MLC, but it created who they are and thus can influence how they handle—coping skills—the crisis. A positive childhood can help a person metter navigate through a midlife transition even a transition that becomes a crisis.
You know, I am wondering if all this is about accountability?
I have just realised what Stayed is saying.
If you don't have any accountability you can play a game forever, stay in your tunnel or cave as everyone else has to worry about it.
Oh absolutely it is about accountability—and that is a good word.
I consider those reasons or excuses to be things I can use to help fuel my understanding in the situation for that individual. With that increase in understanding I may better be able to learn what responses will be beneficial for that individual—responses that would have different results with someone different.
I don’t offer 7 steps to success. That would be misleading and thus unethical. Maybe there are 7 steps, but they are 7 different steps for you than they were for me—and I seriously think it was a lot more than 7!
-
My h goes to an anti aging doctor. Hmmmmm...I think someone is afraid of getting old...
-
Comments by RCR's
Oh absolutely it is about accountability—and that is a good word.
I consider those reasons or excuses to be things I can use to help fuel my understanding in the situation for that individual. With that increase in understanding I may better be able to learn what responses will be beneficial for that individual—responses that would have different results with someone different.
Ok then, if this is absolutely about ACCOUNTABILITY, why do I see so many people afraid to say anything to their MLCer? Why are people weighing every word out of their mouth, afraid of sending their MLCer scurrying back into their cave? The only people I am seeing being held accountable are the LBS's who are more then willing to examine their "mistakes", their "actions" throughout their marriage and most of their lives, but I don't see many people HOLDING their MLCer's toes to the fire. Instead I hear a lot of VALIDATING his/her feelings, his/her thoughts, his/her opinions but their MLCer isn't validating theirs.
I never kitty footed around with my h RCR even when he was in the deepest part of his crisis. I wasn't cruel, I wasn't unkind, but I DID NOT VALIDATE his behaviour ever! Not once. What he was doing was WRONG... WRONG... WRONG... and I did not let him forget that. What's more, he knew what he was doing was WRONG and he simply chose to do it anyway.
I find that there is a lot of EXCUSE sounding language and I honestly feel it doesn't help anybody, the MLCer or the LBSer. Somehow we all have to be able to live with this. Our MLCers have to understand that they did something that was reprehensible, that it is not something easily forgiven and will never be forgotten, unless we are unfortunate enough to get Alzheimer's or Dementia.
I know many people in my other forum who are dealing with a second and in some cases 3rd. infidelity event, with some time in between each affair. Each time, there has obviously been some sweeping the issues aside, under the carpet no less. Whatever is happening, they are not RESOLVING their issues.
Also, it concerns me that these younger men and women going through this "crisis", is far more likely to have a repeat if the issues are not totally examined and dealt with, especially as they are so young and have many more years to get through without another incident.
What I wonder, do they have a propensity for this, the younger they are when this occurs? Plus, if the chances are increased, might I ask, who would want to stay and take the chance of going through this again? Is their a limit to how many chances one gets?
I am all for saving marriages, but one does have to wonder when "enough is enough"!
hugs Stayed
-
Oh, also then, I guess I can assume there are no CAUSES for mid life crisis. Everything is just an incubator, or a contributor, or symptom of crisis. Right?
hugs Stayed
-
Stayed...
I will tell you why I kitty foot around the truth...I'll be blunt. Because I was told here to ZIP IT.
That it doesnt matter how many times you open your mouth to the MLCer, they dont hear you, so why waste your breath.
That is MY reason....I for one have NEVER been the type to just sit back and not stand up for myself...I may have enabled honey to cheat...but I went through it saying HOW I felt.
SO where is the fine line here?? DO we stand UP for ourselves or Not??
In my very own opinion, I dont believe it has much to do with childhood issues..If I believed that 100% then I didnt learn a damn thing going through PPD...and in this case would mean I'll go through it again. This is my understanding anyway.
I believe we ALL have issues, but I dont completely believe it is based on that fact alone.
So anyway...Thats just my .02
-
I have to agree with Synicca on that point that we are encouraged to either detach or if we address an issue it is not detaching.
My position was that if I spoke up it would make matters worse in the early stages and Monster, so for my own sanity, leave her to it. Get away and go dark.
I think our approach has to be geared to where we thing the spouse is at in the process.
If they are cake eating, we set a boundary. If they cross it, we let em have it.
Being caring (as we are) and being a door mat is a fine line. One that if crossed we will pay for, for a long time.
-
Some thoughts I am having as I follow this thread:
On examining causation to excuse mlc behavior...
Personally, I always examine causation in events in my life. Knowledge and understanding lead to compassion and forgiveness, allowing me to move on, empowered to have boundaries against another occurrence. More than that, the information of cause, always leads me back to me and a particular issue with which I must deal. Examining my MLCer's issues always shines a light on one of my own. (And after 25 years together, they are very closely related)
As much as we, who have been in this for awhile, would like to save those behind us much of the pain, we must allow them their journey. Their journey may be different than ours. We may believe they wallow in victimhood for way too long. It may be they seem too focused on their MLCer's behaviors, or affairs, or stage, or history, etc. We and our journeys are as different as our MLCers are different. Some are longer, some shorter. Some may get stuck for awhile. The best we can do to support each other is to encourage movement in the journey, validation of our feelings, reality checks, and differing perspectives. :)
The current discussion is appearing to encourage a dismissal of trauma, a rejection of the journey. To say that my spouse is a bad boy and I will take my toys and play elsewhere until he shapes up would deprive me of the exploration of my marriage, and more importantly, myself. I am sure the result would leave me bitter not better.
I am not looking to excuse my husband or relieve him of responsibility for his behavior. I know that a time for accountability will arrive. Because those that have gone before me have documented, I know accountability is essential for reconciliation. I do not have time to deal with making him accountable now. I am too busy focusing on my journey and that of my children out of this trauma. I do not have to constantly hold my husband's toes to the fire. He is already ON FIRE. He will not hear me. He already knows what I think and feel about his behavior and has rationalized it away. Showing him anger keeps me feeling angry! However I will never seem agreeable to his behavior. Once he was moaning about our financial distress and suggested that I get a job. I simply stated "I will not get a job to support your philandering." and left the room. Some issues are not as clear. Like holidays. My kids, who daily struggle with his rejection and abandonment, want him included in our holiday plans. I would prefer not to deal with his bizarre, irrational presence, especially in my home. Do I hold him to his choices and not include him? Allow him to cake eat family time or allow my kids holiday time with their dad? Which perspective is "best"? And then there is "What if he turns down the offer?" or pulls a no-show? or "just puts in an appearance and runs off"? All which leads me back to leaving him to the consequences of his choice to leave. Which direction will I take that will hurt my kids the least? There is often more to the tightrope walk than my or my husband's feelings.
On current culture and society as cause of MLC.
Aspects (symptoms such as infidelity, selfishness, abandonment, abuse, etc) have been around since the dawn of time and are documented in greek and roman mythology, the bible, most literature and historical events. I have spent a lot of time over the years researching my family tree and met many other researchers. We were often amazed at the amount of abandonment that occurred ...going back 300 hundred years. It was much easier to disappear. Hop on a boat to the new world, join the circus, get on a wagon going west. These stories were often explained as a death, only to have the vanisher appear on a public record a few years later either as returned to the family group or in another locale. hmmmm... Look at life a hundred years ago! During Victorian times, Mistresses, weird sexual escapades, addictions and vices were common, if not expected...as long as they were not publicly displayed and a pretense of an honorable life was maintained. Even then, wives and families were set aside and sent to live in the country house IF it was affordable....Is that preferable to what we have now?
Some thoughts on age
Age ranges for MLC are varied and encompass age 30 to 60. Seems to me, that is most of one's adult life. Do MLCers really want to return to their teenage years? I do not believe so. I believe they do so out of necessity. Their coping skills are failing them and they return to a time where said skills were developed. We all use similar mechanisms. Rationalizations, denial, projections, minimizing, etc., help us cope in life. How we use them and to what extent determines our level of mental health. MLCers overuse them to the point they become distorted thinking patterns. Does years lived determine coping failure? I believe not. It is more about the situations the skills developed in, how strong and healthy they are to withstand the current stressors. In addition to developmental issues, there are physical issues, (sex hormone changes, overstimulated stress hormones, other health issues, brain issues, etc), as well as spiritual issues. When all areas are in failure, you will have a crisis.
So my rambling thoughts may not be sensical, but I thank you all for provolking them! ;D
-
And I think that is all pandering and it comes from a mindset of "standing." Not that I think standing is wrong, but I think it makes you a stakeholder in the process, but you are not and should not be. All the "diagnosis" and watching, trying to assess progress through the tunnel is about standing. Because as you stand, in the back of your head and heart are questions and doubts and so very clearly, frustrations. Because no matter how much you GAL or detach, a HUGE part of you is waiting for your MLCer to get the f over it. Am I wrong here?
It is why I knew I could not stand and why I never really cared much what I said or did--while a part of me accepted all his blame, I really didn't and I will not stand back and validate his feelings--I could have done that BEFORE he decided to replace me, but not after he turned to another person. I have said it before, I admire people who stand for their marriages but I don't understand it or know how I would manage it. I am STILL too vested in him and his life, I still care too much and have a hard time letting go, but I feel I am a lot healthier than I would be if I tried to wait it out.
So much of the talk on the boards is "what if." He did this, so what if I do that, what if he does this, should I say that? It is all so tied to the process and there is really no telling. There are no guarantees, whether you trust the process or not, he might finally make it through the tunnel and get hit by a bus as he is running across the street back to you--and you might never know it. Life has no agenda, syllabus or prescription. It doesn't matter which "expert" you turn to, there will always be a different opinion.
It's interesting reading from my perspective as a non-stander almost two years post-BD. I realize how much and why I frustrated so many people earlier on with my comments and observations--because I always had a different perspective, but I didn't realize how different and how that might seem threatening. But I think as the forum gets older and more people grow impatient and question their stands the tone and observations do change. I still have a great deal of respect for RCR and her mission, and I will be the first one to congratulate each and every case of standers reconciled, and I hope that much is learned from their stands, so that in the future everyone could come out of MLC with an intact M. But I am not sure that most people have what it takes to stand in a healthy manner as long as it takes.
This is a fascinating discussion. Love and light to all, Lisa
-
LGO,
Maybe this is a mini hijack.
This jumped out at me:I am not looking to excuse my husband or relieve him of responsibility for his behavior. I know that a time for accountability will arrive. Because those that have gone before me have documented, I know accountability is essential for reconciliation. I do not have time to deal with making him accountable now.
Accountability is very important and I too, believe it will come as it says in the Bible (expert writings on MLC too :)) Let him sit alone in silence,
for the LORD has laid it on him.
Let him bury his face in the dust—
there may yet be hope.
Let him offer his cheek to one who would strike him,
and let him be filled with disgrace. Lamentations 3:28-30
There will be a time when they face what they have done and they will offer their cheek to one who would strike him = accountability to those whom he/she has abused.
-
Lisa Lives comment:
So much of the talk on the boards is "what if." He did this, so what if I do that, what if he does this, should I say that? It is all so tied to the process and there is really no telling. There are no guarantees, whether you trust the process or not, he might finally make it through the tunnel and get hit by a bus as he is running across the street back to you--and you might never know it. Life has no agenda, syllabus or prescription. It doesn't matter which "expert" you turn to, there will always be a different opinion.
Truth is, I didn't have a forum like this to tell me not to push so hard, or not to say this or that. I am a mother of 5 children, I raised 5 through their teen years and I just was not going to VALIDATE and give my husband a BREAK on his despicable behaviour. I simply had no idea how to do that.
I did not yell and scream. I did not demean myself or him for that matter. That being said, I did not allow him to delude himself about what he was doing, how he was behaving. He was being a JERK, a mean spirit, smug jerk and when he was like that with me, I got in his face and just like I did with my teenagers, I asked him, "who the hell he thought he was talking to?" I let him know, just like I did my teenagers, that I would not ALLOW him or anybody else to DISRESPECT me.
I had no idea whether my h would come out of this, or if he would return if he did manage to find his way through it. I was just like all the rest of you "heartbroken" but I had done the work and I knew I was going to be ok. There was lot's more to be done, that I was aware of as well, but I was no longer afraid. Obviously, that brings "detachment" with it. Quite frankly, I withdrew from commenting Freddygone and others because I honestly felt I was wasting my breath. That being said, when he sent me an email or said something totally ASSININE while on the phone, I didn't even attempt to restrain myself. I couldn't see any point in holding back.
I think everybody starts off cautiously. At first we are so broken, so hurt, so willing to accept all the fault for our destroyed marriage, we would lick their boots. Anywhere from 3-6 months after that, then it became a "fair fight". Learning time for everybody. Did I want him? Did he want me? Was it worth the bother? Ahhhhhhhhhh everything, everybody has said here... so said I.
I was completely in the HEAL THYSELF stage when my h sent me the return ticket. I should not have come back that easily, but I did. Thereby the rest is history. Sometimes, I guess we get lucky!
Hugs Stayed
-
I agree with much of RCR's post, but I am not sure I entirely concur with the demography element of this. As an historian by academic background, it is evident in many sources, primary and secondary, that being 49 (for instance) was considered "old" in the past, in a way that it is not deemed to be anymore. If you were a woman you were likely past childrearing age (without HRT) and you may have been through childbirth multiple times, you could easily be a grandparent, you probably had worked much of your life in a manual capacity that wore you out, there were few labour saving devices so most housework was manual, as was agricultural labour and industrial labour. Actually pretty much any type of work was more manual then. This was the case unless you were part of a wealthy elite, which most people were not (partly why we are more obese these days too - we just don't burn energy that we consume anymore). People aged faster, because of the type of life -life was, frankly, HARDER.
The way we view age in general has been entirely altered in the last 400 or 500 years. Then people were considered "adults" at an age that we now define as "teenage" and were married and sent out to work from 12, 13,14 years old because it was expected that many people would die young, in child birth, from disease (less from war than people think, disease was the biggie).
With the growth of the middle class in teh 19th century, the advent of leisure time as concept and the slow decline in family size, the "cult" of childhood saw an entire redefinition of what childhood is even about and for. Social history is fascinating because if you go back not all that far in history as the nations of Europe and the "new world" industrialised, the whole structure of society from a political level down to family level dramatically changed and partly this was because of the advent of modern medicine, sanitation etc.Birth control, modern medical practices, pharmaceutical and surgical interventions have prolonged life, reduced mortality across the board and increased life expectancy. Infant mortality rates impact that, of course, but even if you take infant mortality out of the equation, it is clear that MORE people are living longer. If you look at the mortality rate for people OVER 65, for instance, you will see a drop throughout the western Europe in the last 100 years, even if you exclude generations lost to war.
One could argue that the fact that people are living longer MAY impact MLC as a factor because for instance, although people are living longer we are also keeping people alive that would simply have died from their ailments in the past - we can slow the progress of diseases like alzheimers, which often leaves younger generations with the burden of seeing a loved one age in a slow and debilitating way for longer. One could argue that we know that more of us are more likely to stay alive longer than our great-grandparents , but that does not mean that we believe that we will stay healthy or whatever. So ageing is not just about death, it is about the prospect of living a long time, possibly with a very reduced quality of life. Getting older is inevitable, we may live longer, but that does not mean that we will be healthy. Is that a factor in MLC? I just don't know.
It is late here and I am tired, so I am sorry if what i am saying is not clear.
-
Actually S&D, as usual it was very clear. I was thinking much like you. I am a history lover. The changes I have seen even in my lifetime are substantial, so the changes in the last 100 years or more... incredible.
I too was wondering about the witnessing from as early an age as we can remember, watching old people struggle. Most throughout my lifetime did not age particularly graciously. Most were robbed of their strength and vitality by illness. It wasn't pretty.
I just find it hard to believe that aging would not be a possible cause, as it is certainly something that we have been witnessing from our earliest ages. Believe it or not, I can still hear my grandmother's scream of pain and agony when she fell down the basement stairs, shattering her right arm and shoulder. I was only 3 years old. Believe me, it has had a huge impact on me, as I always feel like I am being SUCKED down stairs.
I then watched my very capable grandmother become completely dependent on my mother. Her arm was never the same and as adaptable a woman as she was, she was never able to dress herself without help again. This was a very proud lady and believe me, having to have our help to do the simplest thing such as doing up her bra, was utterly humiliating to her.
I can understand a person being afraid of ageing. Thanks for your comment S&D, I found your comments thought provoking.
hugs Stayed
-
Another thought.
My Uncle is a Psychiatrist (I know...Nurse Aunt and Pscyh Uncle... my support is good). We have been talking about my husbands father. He also had a MLC. Both H and FIL were the same age 48-49. FIL was gone for 2.4 years. OW was never confirmed but he did move out. He eventually came back and they just celebrated their 50 year anniversary in July. No counseling, no help...just came back. Told my MIL that he would go hunting and fishing whenever he wanted, but he was back. BTW, I adore my FIL. Funny, goofy,smart--- awesome Grandpa!
My FIL has Adult ADHD. I have a son 11 that has been diagnosed with ADD. All three of my sister-in-laws have at least one child with ADHD. Youngest SIL has D23 with Bipolar and severe anxiety. My sister in law has struggled with depression. H has been taking paxil since we've know each other (10mg for anxiety).
Is there a connection here? My Uncle is intrigued but has no experience with MLC. Although, he is learning from me...whether he wants to or not!
-
Stayed, Think that there is a difference between validate feeling and actions. Like you I never stop tolding my husband whatever I had to say. I had just simply (before this forum even come to be) detached and went NC. But that was for me. I had had enough of all the stuff that we went through during OW1.
And I did all the "wrong" things during OW1. Well, she lasted less than OW2, he keep coming back. Yep, I know, I could had done the same during OW2. But there were the court cases and I was done with arguments and all that stuff, so I cut the cord.
But I always told him that he was responsable for what he did and what I thought of what he did. What changed with time, and understanding MLC, was that I started saying in a not so furious way.
Now I say nothing. There is nothing to say.
SD is right, the concept of childwood and the years people live changed with the centuries. Yes, many people would die very young and many women would die at childbirth. And I must also add that, when separated or widowed people would pretty much couple again with someone else. They would not be studying MLC. Life was too short for that.
Even in many european countries live until the middle of the 20th century, sometimes until the 70's was still pretty hard for most people. When I was born the difference between city and country life and the diverse social classes was huge. Now all is much more levelled.
But I think the cult of youth plays a part in MLC. If nothing else because of the pressure people suffer to stay "young", look "young". There is nothing wrong with being keeping fit and a happy healthy mind and body. That is not the same as keeping being a teenager for ever.
Well, in a way, life is still too short for that...But...but many things are different now.
-
Is there a connection here? My Uncle is intrigued but has no experience with MLC. Although, he is learning from me...whether he wants to or not!
Gallagher - this has been debated on the forum before somewhere. Not sure on what thread?
A lot of us seem to have come to the conclusion that if there was a tendency towards these sorts of things pre-crisis - it could perhaps tip them over the edge and into crisis. Because their coping mechanisms are not necessarily all functioning as they should.
-
Hi Stayed,
You know I love you dearly, always have; but I wanted to answer this comment you made:
Who says this stuff? Good old Jim Conway, HB, RCR, last two who freely admit neither of them are psychologists or have much more then 1 semester of psychology at university? The stuff I am reading doesn't DISMISS mid life crisis as nothing to do with AGE. Why would it materialize with AGE especially around the 40-50 point, if age had nothing to do with it?
Does it make people feel better to be able to somehow make this about our spouses childhood? Blame on the terrible parenting we all go. What? I just don't get it?
I have said to various posters numerous times in the earlier days; and sometimes, even now, that the crisis can strike between the ages of 35 and 55, sometimes sooner, sometimes later; and I HAVE more than once asked for the spouse's age to help me determine if it's a true MLC, or an emotional crisis; not to mention, I have also asked for the HISTORY of the marriage, the LBS and the MLC spouse; and any other relevant information I deem necessary so I can help the poster determine what's going on.
I have NOT seen EVERY case as MLC; and I ask for lots of DETAIL; no one can determine a whole lot from very little, and as intuitive; and insightful as I come across as being to others, NO ONE can see EVERY LITTLE thing about another. I only know what the LORD shows me outside of what I've been given to read...and He doesn't always give me more; sometimes that's not necessary to see.
I have never thought it made people feel "better" to know the majority of issues came from traumatic events that happened within a spouse's childhood or even their young adulthood....or even from issues that were never faced that came from a previous marriage.
If anything, information like that can increase the guilt of the LBS for not seeing this earlier when it wouldn't have stopped the crisis, regardless. Yet, once the MLC'er has dropped the bomb, making sure the LBS knows these type things can forestall a hard shock when the LBS is walking their journey in a proper way; and these things WILL be seen anyway; regardless of whether I prepare them or not. With that said, I'm a believer in making sure people know all they need to know so they are well prepared for this walk.
I'd ALREADY had this kind of information 'fed back' to me more than just a few times at an earlier time and place, so I KNOW I'm on the right track in this aspect.
Not ALL issues come from bad parenting; some traumatic events that become later issues also can come from other sources during childhood. You never know what may cause an issue to develop within a child; as you don't know everything a child will see and experience.
I know this one to be a FACT from firsthand knowledge; and will say nothing further on that particular subject from my personal experience; except there were several issues within myself that were not caused directly by my parents; but my parents could have protected me better than they did. There was another issue created within me in young adulthood, and this had to do with my son; I did what was right to protect him; but there was an aspect of hurt I never got past UNTIL I was navigating through my Transition.
However, this partial revealing does NOT color my own perceptions.
I've observed SO many situations over the years; and have drawn most of my certainty from these observations, and from asking a great many questions so I could understand this better for myself.
When the crisis arrives, the majority of MLC'ers are literally "covered" in issues that cry out to be heard, and this is IF they didn't face themselves at any time BEFORE the crisis.
Some of their issues evidence within as "errors" that need to be corrected; therefore this is where the "reliving" of their prior relationships(if these existed) takes place. For others, you'll often see them "reliving" their EARLIER years of marriage. For some, you can see them "reliving" a time that concerned correcting an error made with either mother or father; the earlier inability to make the proper break a young adult is supposed to make; but some remain emotionally attached to their parent or parent until this issue is properly resolved within the MLC'er.
That is why you see some MLC'er's "reliving" a prior marriage that occurred before your current one; and I'm aware a few of you have already seen THIS aspect at work within some of the various MLC affairs.
That's ANOTHER aspect of the crisis; one that can LENGTHEN the crisis even more, as a MLC'er actually DOES "relive" their lives in various ways to correct certain "errors" made within their past; and certain things they say will actually tell you where they are within their journey in the past.
I have NOT written this article yet; but I have made reference to knowing this aspect happens during MLC.
Then again, as every person is different, every crisis is different...and each person's life leading up to the MLC is also different. Some components that show up in one; won't show up in another; yet issues show up in ALL people at this time.
You see the "groundwork" for various issues has its roots somewhere IN EVERYONE's childhood; comprised of traumatic events too painful to deal with; and so these are set aside.
These compound in time, as they go forward within their lives, making further mistakes/errors that ADD to their issues; making mountains out of molehills.
Not to mention materialism, lack of the ability to emotionally connect, not to mention all of the other psychological defense mechanisms learned along the way; that must be UNLEARNED during their time in crisis.
The ones who already have their investments in people, rather than material things, ones who are emotionally "open"; are the ones that have the easiest time navigating through, and keep the Transition just what it is...a TRANSITION, that NEVER becomes a crisis.
It's a scary thing for people who were never taught to be open with their feelings; having been trained by trauma, not to mention their issues within to remain closed.
This aspect is ALSO a major contributor to the crisis. When my husband was going through; not only was it shown to me he was suffering a major midlife crisis complicated by sexual addiction, it was ALSO shown to me that he was of the group whose investments were MATERIAL, rather than emotional. I was in the EMOTIONAL group of people whose investments were in PEOPLE rather than MATERIAL things.
I COULD go on and on and on; there are SO many aspects I've spoken on, and written about over time; as I was learning about this stuff.
People's questions trigger a great many things in me; and your comment was one of those triggers, Stayed. :) The board was started in the beginning to help people; no one gets paid to sit here and answer questions; least of all, me. I welcome the challenges put forth, but in many aspects we will have to agree to disagree on various things.
I'm actually glad you're researching; and you haven't said one thing that I don't already know about; as I researched heavily in past years; and I still research what I don't understand or don't know.
My question to you is this; and it really doesn't matter to me if you answer it or not.
Does it really bother you that RCR has some college and I don't have any at all? Is this some way of pointing out that we don't know what we're talking about? You have every right to your opinion, but this looks like you are trying to cut us down to some kind of small size....and in the longer run; what you or anyone else says is not going to matter that much in 10 years.
I saw attitudes just like yours back years ago when I was 34 or 35; having written the stages, the lessons, and was advising people on how to deal with the crisis. In many aspects, I didn't write much differently than I do now; advocating the SAME journey; plus I advised people on HOW to deal with their MLC spouses, much like I STILL do now.
The majority was acting the SAME way you often advise; they were tossing their spouse out in the street because "they didn't deserve to be treated this way".....and all but just a few of the spouses were NOT returning; they had perceived this action by their respective LBS as total rejection of THEM. This reflected the state of mind the MLC'er IS IN during the time of Replay; around the time of the Bomb drop.
I was ahead of most people by over 6 months; and I began advising the SAME way I advise present day; using my Intuition to help people deal. They ridiculed me when I advised letting go, letting God; change their behavior, start looking within themselves, but DON'T throw the MLC'er out.
Yet, it did work in my situation; and I saw it work within other people's as well. As long as the LBS is willing to set aside their pride and arrogance; and begin learning to set healthy boundaries, learning to live for themselves AS IF the MLC'er would be walking away at any time; take this same journey, and I was actually STILL walking mine when I was doing so much writing.
I think that was why I wasn't able to write any kind of journey threads back then; I only knew to look within me to find what I needed to fix; which did lead to me seeing my husband and my marriage in naked reality; the lessons I was continuing to learn; and was writing these things down AS I was learning them.
Wisdom belongs to the elder generation, and I have deep respect for my elders; even when I don't agree. Most of the people back then had 10, and 20 years on me.
I argued that no one would listen; simply because I was SO much younger, but the Lord DID say to hang with it; and keep talking; they eventually would try my advice at least once. I never advised anything I hadn't done myself, and what I was advising looked like "doormat" behavior; but it was working in my situation; and my husband was moving forward within the tunnel of that first crisis.
He made the choice to stay with me; and various things I did on the instruction of the Lord played a HUGE part in influencing his decision. Now, he was one of those who would NOT have returned had I thrown him out in the beginning; just so you know.
Some people tentatively tried the advice; found it was working; then more jumped on the bandwagon. What gave people the most trouble was the TIME it was taking to bring certain aspects forward. The time factor is a huge problem with some here; just as it was back then.
I think what shocked people was when I returned last year STILL married; I don't think some of them really believed I would stay that way. And they latched onto the fact that I was reconciled within my marriage; and really thought I had some short cut I could share that would bring them to the same outcome.
I suppose they were disappointed when they found out that I had walked the harder path, and that it still took time, even in my own case. I never knew, didn't ask, just said that I'd had to take the journey to wholeness and healing; and only then, was I able to write that article; then later, the added aspects as the questions came up.
RCR would most likely have termed my husband a "clinging boomerang" in many aspects; there were times he got really mad; but the connection between the two of us continued to bring him home each time he was ready to come home. He could have left at any time; but he didn't; regardless of his threats every time I got near the truth...
Back in the day I said the same things then that I say now; and I followed these SAME principles; as long as you're not being beaten, or in danger of your life; it is better if you can stand them staying with you; if they don't leave on their own; then through the learning of the tools you gain during your journey; you CAN learn to deal with and SURVIVE the emotional crap one endures from the mouth of a MLC'er.
It is often forgotten that I endured just as much emotional abuse from my husband as anyone here; and since he didn't leave home, I LEARNED to deal with it, learning in that process to set boundaries on his behavior.
On the other hand, marriage was designed for one spouse to teach the other HOW to treat them fairly, with respect, and most of all, with LOVE. And if it takes some trouble along the way to start maturing BOTH spouses; it is what it is.
I won't get started on marriage vows, I just know I honored mine to the fullest; walked his crisis all the way to end; came out whole and healed; with knowledge on how to get to that end.
As each person is different, each crisis is different; what one will do, another won't. I'm often glad for discussions such as these because I can always stand to learn something more about human nature; and other people's opinions are another welcome read.
One last thing I will leave you with; read on:
Anyone can gain street smarts and otherwise, if they are willing to put in the time researching and studying this or any other time of life.
I didn't ASK for all of the knowledge I gained over time; I simply inherited it; and over time I have written on every aspect you could dream up on the crisis; only I did NOT dream these up; I've SEEN these in action, and I passed them on in order to help others.
When it comes down to brass tacks; it doesn't really matter WHAT started it; although it helps to know...... what matters is the JOURNEY taken by all to grow out of this; but along with that journey DOES come the deeper intuitive understanding of yourself AND of your MLC spouse; who, believe it or not, is ALSO a part of your journey, AND a part of your issues, just as the LBS is a part of the MLC'er's issues simply because on parts the two were a part of each other's PAST.
The journey the MLC'er takes ALSO delves DEEPLY into their past to face, work out, confront, resolve, and put to rest their past mistakes; from which PART of their adult issues come about.
That's WHY two of the major decisions a MLC'er makes is in regard to his MARRIAGE, and HIS SPOUSE. His JOB, and his LIFE; are two more issues and aspects he is faced with....The fifth decision is the direction his life will take.
I will put these in a list for clarity: There are FIVE decisions, (not necessarily in this order) a MLC'er will make in order to also move forward within the crisis:
1 His job
2 His life
3 His marriage
4 His spouse
5 The direction his life will lead going forward
I know you've read the stages of MLC that I wrote; and in the first stage entitled DENIAL; you'll find the various descriptions I've written in regards to AGING as being a CONTRIBUTOR to what the MLC'er begins to face.
I heard my husband talk about this, too; and he was 37 when his crisis started.
Do you REALLY expect me to write in the SAME way every time? The majority of people who arrive here ALREADY know what's going on; they just need additional answers for clarification. Only if they ask directly about the aging aspect; do I write on it.
Also, just for your information RCR AND Jim Conway; have ALSO written on the aging issue MLC'ers face that CONTRIBUTES to their crisis; it doesn't CAUSE; like everything else, it CONTRIBUTES it's part to the "perfect storm" that comes for almost everyone.
I'm always geared toward the LBS JOURNEY ALL needs to take AFTER they get some answers so THEY can understand MORE about this crisis.
I have NEVER made "excuses" for the crisis; I simply understand how it works having observed it firsthand; and in the situations of other people. It IS true that during certain times they really are "out of their minds" due to MLC fog, pressure, and deep depression.
I have made it clear many times that the MLC DOES know what they are doing at the TIME they are doing it; so set boundaries on bad behaviors; and don't allow yourself to be talked to disrespectfully. Otherwise, you really can't "stop" much of what they do....they will do whatever they choose to do when they feel they need to do it.
They are really NOT children; however, they are acting out in rebellion; and boundaries are called for to protect YOU; but you can't "force" them to do what you consider right; or even to do what's right.
All you can do is protect yourself as you see fit to keep them from bankupting or otherwise hurting you in a physical fashion.
Sometimes various things you do or say will bring out spewing and deep confusion;(what RCR terms as "monster" and NOTHING you say or do will make any kind of difference; you're the ENEMY during this time; that is the MLC'er's perception of the LBS during the worst parts of the crisis.
Until the fog clears within their brains; you will NOT be able to get through to them anything that makes sense; they will interpret this as pressure, and run far away; possibly NEVER returning.
This is NOT the time during the crisis to decide they need to "straighten" up and fly right; the time for accountability comes LATER, once the fog begins to clear more within their minds; you'll need to do as your intuition instructs you at any given time.
The one aspect I have seen pop up again and again and again; has been emotional traumatic damage that originated in one's CHILDHOOD, and YOUNG ADULTHOOD.
There are issues that came stem from there that are NOT always clearly recognized by the person going through the crisis; nor does the LBS have that kind of knowledge; yet these will exist; and do come up to be seen.
The LBS will NOT always see EVERYTHING the MLC'er faces in the way of their issues; ALTHOUGH they MIGHT hear bits and pieces of things they NEVER knew before about their spouse.
Now, I did read about your husband becoming angry at what he's reading about the aspect of issues that can also drive the crisis; and I fail to understand why HE should become so angry. He was only one of MANY MLC'ers that navigated the tunnel, and no two person's issues/aspects/problems/causes are just alike.
However, in order to reconcile a marriage shot dead and ravaged by the crisis; each person in the marriage must still face themselves and their own individual issues within; in order to move forward within the rebuilding of the NEW marriage's foundation.........and I will leave it at that point to keep from beating the dead dog beyond recognition. :)
Yes, he's absolutely right that aging, one last shot at what he thought he missed, loss of youth helped contribute to and drive his MLC, influencing his actions; but he will NOT be able to tell you ALL he faced during his time in the tunnel; he really doesn't remember it all, but all he really remembers is the actions HE was responsible for toward you, but not much more than that.
There will always be things about him that you'll never know.
It really doesn't matter for him at this point; and it shouldn't; you AND he really should now be past this crisis, being able to remember it as a time in your life that helped your marriage rebuild, change, and become stronger at this later time. This is all that should matter to either one of you at this time, Stayed.
Hugs to you,
HB
-
Know this is for Stayed but I will highjack.
When the crisis arrives, the majority of MLC'ers are literally "covered" in issues that cry out to be heard, and this is IF they didn't face themselves at any time BEFORE the crisis.
Think can aply pretty much to my husband. He had a lot of issues from childwood, and even adultwood, related with is familt that were "covering" and upsetting him. There was also the regular job. He had taken it because, many years before, he made a business mistake, we lost a lot of money, and he needed a standard job. he got it. he was good at it. But...And there was I wanting to have a family (children).
That is why you see some MLC'er's "reliving" a prior marriage that occurred before your current one; and I'm aware a few of you have already seen THIS aspect at work within some of the various MLC affairs.
That's ANOTHER aspect of the crisis; one that can LENGTHEN the crisis even more, as a MLC'er actually DOES "relive" their lives in various ways to correct certain "errors" made within their past; and certain things they say will actually tell you where they are within their journey in the past.
I thing husband is reliving our marriage with OW2, doing some things, like traveling, we always wanted to do but never did. He takes her to all the places we wanted to go to. With OW1, he also took her to places we wanted to go, but refused to go with her to places she wanted but we never were into. Odd... I would say that is way of dressing, and his letters to OW1 could give me a sense of were in the past he is.
Yes, he's absolutely right that aging, one last shot at what he thought he missed, loss of youth helped contribute to and drive his MLC, influencing his actions; but he will NOT be able to tell you ALL he faced during his time in the tunnel; he really doesn't remember it all, but all he really remembers is the actions HE was responsible for toward you, but not much more than that.
Ah! Age. Mine was 36, about to be 37. And I was told, over and over that he could only go and do it (the party boy, night life superstar live) "now" because, then, we would be to old. I, on the other hand, could do my studies and intelectual stuff until I die. So, yes, he wanted to grab teenage years. This time with the liberty of living them the way he pleased because there was no dad to stop him. Makes sense.
I have notice that they forget details. The big things, like leaving and so, they remember.
-
Who says this stuff? Good old Jim Conway, HB, RCR, last two who freely admit neither of them are psychologists or have much more then 1 semester of psychology at university? The stuff I am reading doesn't DISMISS mid life crisis as nothing to do with AGE. Why would it materialize with AGE especially around the 40-50 point, if age had nothing to do with it?
Does it make people feel better to be able to somehow make this about our spouses childhood? Blame on the terrible parenting we all go. What? I just don't get it?
Does it really bother you that RCR has some college and I don't have any at all? Is this some way of pointing out that we don't know what we're talking about? You have every right to your opinion, but this looks like you are trying to cut us down to some kind of small size....and in the longer run; what you or anyone else says is not going to matter that much in 10 years.
I’d love to write a long response to the posts since I posted, but I need to work on the blog mailing issues and coaching posts… but I did want to comment to this.
HeartsBlessing, had Stayed not been referring to something I said earlier—I think in my initial post that started this thread—I might think that she was getting in a dig too. But I think this is more a reference to what I said about me not having an education in Psychology. The last and only Psychology class I took was my Junior year of High School—not even at University. I said it to emphasize that I am not an expert in this. At least not an expert according to academic credentials.
I think it is fine if other people want to label you or me or Stayed or Snodderly…experts. But I don’t think it is fair for me to self-label! I have to admit that sometimes I think of myself as an expert and I feel a bit guilty and am wary of such ideas because I don't want to inflate my head. :P For me when I was at DB you (HB) and Snodderly were experts, and so I find it acceptable if someone considers us experts. But I guess it seems immodest to self-label. Maybe if I had all sorts of official academic credits to my name I would feel fine claiming expertise since the credits would be labeling me…Silly perhaps!
-
OK I will but in too.
I think we are all EXPERTS on MLC.
Each in our own way and we all bring different things to the table.
I have really studied this reading as much as I could about this, now I do not have as much real life experience in MLC. But my mother is BiPolar and so is my daughter.
So I know a thing or two about mental illness and can completly relate that we can not FIX it.
I have 50 years of trying to do that with my mother and I failed miserably.
If they decide to stay in crisis then nothing we can do about it.
And not to pick on college but Thundarr has a marriage counseling degree and we are teaching him.
I got counseling in the beginning from someone with a PHD and she was clueless.
So just because you have a college degree does not mean anything IMHO.
I think we all need to take what we need from the advice and apply it to our own sich with the use of our own intuition
Let GO and live our lives as if they are never coming back.
-
Another thought.
My Uncle is a Psychiatrist (I know...Nurse Aunt and Pscyh Uncle... my support is good). We have been talking about my husbands father. He also had a MLC. Both H and FIL were the same age 48-49. FIL was gone for 2.4 years. OW was never confirmed but he did move out. He eventually came back and they just celebrated their 50 year anniversary in July. No counseling, no help...just came back. Told my MIL that he would go hunting and fishing whenever he wanted, but he was back. BTW, I adore my FIL. Funny, goofy,smart--- awesome Grandpa!
My FIL has Adult ADHD. I have a son 11 that has been diagnosed with ADD. All three of my sister-in-laws have at least one child with ADHD. Youngest SIL has D23 with Bipolar and severe anxiety. My sister in law has struggled with depression. H has been taking paxil since we've know each other (10mg for anxiety).
Is there a connection here? My Uncle is intrigued but has no experience with MLC. Although, he is learning from me...whether he wants to or not!
It's possible there's a connection of a sort, here. MLC is NOT a "one size fits all". Now, your father in law may not have had a whole lot to see/process. On the other hand, it is/was entirely possible he could have another bout, given some time, and disappear again for another period of time.
There's NO rule that says it all has to done ONE time; sometimes it's accomplished in recurring bouts of crisis, as long as there are issues to face, resolve and heal within oneself.
And ALL your father in law told your mother in law was that he would go fishing and hunting whenever HE wanted to, but he was back. :)
I wish it were THAT simple for everyone; but that's not to be. It is also possible he could be one of the ones who really DIDN'T have much to look at within; but time will tell on this one.
I would venture to guess that he returned different than before, if your mother in law remembered the before and after.
Regardless; every person experiences unsettled feelings during Mid Life; and it's programmed into each one of us by the Lord who made us ALL; the severity however, I believe, depends on the choices we make before that time arrives.
MLC is also a spiritual and emotional battle that only the person going through must fight as a individual. People might try and pass off this particular aspect; but again, I don't dream these things up; I've lived them, seen them, and experienced them.
And before things get better, they must get worse, as the crisis burns something out of the MLC'er bringing about change within them. I would speculate that would feel almost like the fire of Hades; having been "branded" like that, myself, but since I've never been there(to Hades); I cannot say for sure. :)
This is NOT an easy journey to navigate, and it's emotionally painful.
Furthermore, I can remember having a conversation with the Lord not long after Bomb drop; my intuition wasn't developed at that point, and someone else was used to help me, as the Lord actually DID send several people to intervene with me.
Bear with me, this does have a point, and might further help.
He said that it would not have mattered what I had done beforehand; the crisis would STILL have happened; as it did not have anything to do with me, and everything to do with my husband. Now, He termed it more than once as a "Major Midlife Crisis complicated by sexual addiction"....this was what I was told; not only by the person He sent initially; but later on when my Mentor finally showed up; and then even later than that when my Intuition gift finally broke through; and opened within me.
There is a passage in Psalms written by King David that speaks of his MLC; I can't remember where it's at; but Jim Conway had referred to it in his book. And the Bible contains passages regarding boundaries, divorcebusting tactics, and even speaks about the other woman in Proverbs.
Somewhere within God's Design resides this growing time in our lives....I can also remember Him letting me know that I, too, I had to navigate through, too....in spite of all I knew and learned...and I didn't escape this.
Anyway, I never got ALL the aspects/pieces at one time from the Lord; these came slowly as I was ready to understand and receive them. And believe it or not, I never knew EVERY issue/aspect my husband faced; I just knew the ones that pertained to me, several that came from his childhood, what I knew of his history; and actually, the Lord showed me more than I expected; this was confirmed from him later on, too.
There were other events that occurred when he was a young adult that caused MORE issues within him; these were "errors" he made within his life and marriage.
The Lord further let me know that his crisis had NOTHING to do with me, personally, and it had everything to do with him...the SAME things I tell all of you.
But---He kept working on and with me to help me get on my journey; told me the SAME details about the learning about myself, my spouse, and my marriage. Other people were sent that had ALREADY walked this same path, and recognized what I was dealing with; and they also assisted and advised me.
My advice written does NOT vary from what I was told; and it never will.
I didn't find out for sure what had happened to my husband until a little over 2 years after his wreck threw him into the tunnel....and then he confirmed when this had begun, and he spoke of his changed feelings toward me during that time.
The issues within him; were coming out; one piece at a time; and I had to pay strict attention; because he would speak some; then withdraw to process; and this was during the latter part of Replay, more came while he was in Depression, even more started coming as he was processing his way through the Withdrawal stage.
Sheesh, I just realized where I was within this thread...but maybe this will help, too, sorry. :)
-
OK I will but in too.
I think we are all EXPERTS on MLC.
Each in our own way and we all bring different things to the table.
I have really studied this reading as much as I could about this, now I do not have as much real life experience in MLC. But my mother is BiPolar and so is my daughter.
So I know a thing or two about mental illness and can completly relate that we can not FIX it.
I have 50 years of trying to do that with my mother and I failed miserably.
If they decide to stay in crisis then nothing we can do about it.
And not to pick on college but Thundarr has a marriage counseling degree and we are teaching him.
I got counseling in the beginning from someone with a PHD and she was clueless.
So just because you have a college degree does not mean anything IMHO.
I think we all need to take what we need from the advice and apply it to our own sich with the use of our own intuition
Let GO and live our lives as if they are never coming back.
OP, this is why you are truly the Wizard. I totally agree. :)
-
I will weigh in also. I mentioned this earlier in this thread....that I am not going to get caught up on the word expert. But when it comes to information and knowledge about midlife crisis, the two resources that have the most credibility for me have been RCR and Jim Conway.
From my perspective, what sets RCR apart from other information sources on midlife crisis is the true, focused research she has done. Conway's materials have been around for about 30 years. RCR has taken it to the next level. For those who may not know, RCR lists her study of midlife crisis on the home page. It may not be academic in nature, but it is quite impressive.
•I've researched midlife crisis in depth, studying Jungian views of midlife and incorporating his ideas of psychological type to understand the differences in individual MLCers.
•I've studied Erik Erikson's stages of human development to gain an understanding of the roots of crisis and how they may manifest in adulthood.
•I've studied depression and the differences between overt and covert depression to explain different behaviours that are often not recognized as depressive.
•I researched the psychology of affairs, looking into the motivations for choosing a partner who is already married. Who does this and why?
•I've studied hypnotherapy to gain an understanding of language and communication in addition to learning to control my cycling emotions amidst crisis.
I do not personally know RCR. But as I said earlier in the thread, there have been times when I read an article and it felt as though RCR must have been listening in on what my MLCer was saying or doing. I believe this website has the most accurate information available on midlife crisis.
At the end of the day, I am thankful to RCR for helping me gain an understanding of this traumatic experience we call midlife crisis.
-
HeartsBlessing, had Stayed not been referring to something I said earlier—I think in my initial post that started this thread—I might think that she was getting in a dig too. But I think this is more a reference to what I said about me not having an education in Psychology. The last and only Psychology class I took was my Junior year of High School—not even at University. I said it to emphasize that I am not an expert in this. At least not an expert according to academic credentials.
I think it is fine if other people want to label you or me or Stayed or Snodderly…experts. But I don’t think it is fair for me to self-label! I have to admit that sometimes I think of myself as an expert and I feel a bit guilty and am wary of such ideas because I don't want to inflate my head. :P For me when I was at DB you (HB) and Snodderly were experts, and so I find it acceptable if someone considers us experts. But I guess it seems immodest to self-label. Maybe if I had all sorts of official academic credits to my name I would feel fine claiming expertise since the credits would be labeling me…Silly perhaps!
Just for the record at least on MY part; I NEVER CLAIMED TO BE AN EXPERT IN MLC or any other phase of life; not all those years ago, not last year, and not even now.
I contain Intuitive, and Insight type knowledge that people say is "otherworldly", but I know NOTHING about ANYTHING; except what the Lord gives me to speak in order to help others.
I retain my right to exhibit deep humility and humbleness within the face of God; who is the one who has given me all I know; and I will continue to stand on that; regardless of who says what.
My confidence comes from Him who gives me the voice to speak the words HE gives me; and there is NO way I could know all that I know...it would have taken most of my life in research to attain even the fraction of the knowledge that I know comes from Him.
I answered the comment with a question. :)
I don't doubt that I irritate a number of people here, when I start up posting; and I don't doubt that most think I'm a nut or worse, LOL!!
However, that's quite all right with me. :)
I'm aware that contradictory views are held by others; that don't match what I know; but I rely on past knowledge and current Insight to guide me; and if I need to know something further in regards to an aspect, I do the research for myself; just as I did long ago.
That honestly does NOT mean I think I hold all the keys to the kingdom; I'm still learning as I go within various aspects of the crisis. After the initial learning you do of the straightforward details of the crisis, it then becomes ALL about the aspects; and there are MANY to be seen.
And I'm STILL that student that keeps asking for more knowledge; and I keep getting it in more and more detail that stretches beyond my own experience. :)
So, again, I'm NOT an expert; and never claimed that status; don't even wish to have that "label" applied to me. :)
Hugs to you, Girl! :)
Howdy, OP, :)
OK I will but in too.
I think we are all EXPERTS on MLC.
Each in our own way and we all bring different things to the table.
I have really studied this reading as much as I could about this, now I do not have as much real life experience in MLC. But my mother is BiPolar and so is my daughter.
So I know a thing or two about mental illness and can completly relate that we can not FIX it.
I have 50 years of trying to do that with my mother and I failed miserably.
If they decide to stay in crisis then nothing we can do about it.
And not to pick on college but Thundarr has a marriage counseling degree and we are teaching him.
I got counseling in the beginning from someone with a PHD and she was clueless.
So just because you have a college degree does not mean anything IMHO.
I think we all need to take what we need from the advice and apply it to our own sich with the use of our own intuition
Let GO and live our lives as if they are never coming back.
OP,
You have attained MUCH more than just basic knowledge on the crisis. I daresay if you had not read true confirmation what has been written down in various books, you would question and keep questioning what was being said.
And you would NEED to. :) Even I was sent to do research all those years ago to confirm many things I was being told by others, I started out OFFLINE; then through the guidance of the Lord, I was sent ONLINE to begin work that I had never done before.
It has brought me in contact with so many wonderful people over time including you and RCR.
You ARE finding the confirmations in books that I have NOT read. I wasn't reading that many books years ago; and I'm not reading any now to tell the truth.
Like I said in another post, I waited this time early in 2010; once RCR got the board up and running, for people to feed the knowledge I already knew and had learned BACK to me. That was the best way to know and see if all I was remembering was accurate, as I did not wish to put out information that wasn't correct.
I'm STILL seeing consistent feedback in those areas, so I heard correctly.
There is value in continuing to learn about the crisis; so learn all you can; it can only benefit you at a time when someone comes to you for help. :)
Hugs to you,
HB
-
OP, but bipolar people can have medication...it does not fix them (in the sense of cure) but it can balance them. Does this not happen with your mother and sister?
As for academic study, I've studied Jung and the behaviour and story of mankind since its dawn, in university. I knew it all about the shadow, about behaviours, bla, bla, bla. Did it made it any easier to deal with this? No. In the begining and did not even remembered Jung and his studies. I were taken aback by the all situation.
HB, my only "irritation" with you is that I left you a huge post in the other thread and send you an equally huge PM and you have not aswered me yet! Now, that is irritating me! :P Because it is very, very nice of me to bombard you with huge stuff for you to answer! ;D ;D ;D ;D
Hugs :)
-
HB, my only "irritation" with you is that I left you a huge post in the other thread and send you an equally huge PM and you have not aswered me yet! Now, that is irritating me! :P Because it is very, very nice of me to bombard you with huge stuff for you to answer! ;D ;D ;D ;D
LOL! I can only be in ONE place at one time, as there is only ONE of me. :) Anne, my dear, I just have sent you a PM. :)
Hugs to you, Sweetie! :)
-
OP, but bipolar people can have medication...it does not fix them (in the sense of cure) but it can balance them. Does this not happen with your mother and sister?
My mother has been on meds for 45 years and it has not really helped.
My daughter on the other hand is in full control of her illness.
And is doing wonderfully on meds.
I pray that it continues.
So I have seen both sides of the illness.
-
Sorry OP. I wrote your sister when it was your daughter. Glad to now she is doing well with the medication. It is sad your mum does not do well on med. Maybe they don't work for everyone... :-[
HB, you are right! There is only one of you (we may need to clone you ;D ;D). Will take a look at your PM and reply tomorrow. It is very late (or early) in this side of the world. My night job is done, gotta go sleep.
Hugs, and Thanks, HB. :)
-
I have come to the conclusion that experiencing our partners with MLC (if that is what it is) leaves us all a little nuts. :) :) :)
(Gently rocking)
-
I’d love to write a long response to the posts since I posted, but I need to work on the blog mailing issues and coaching posts… but I did want to comment to this.
HeartsBlessing, had Stayed not been referring to something I said earlier—I think in my initial post that started this thread—I might think that she was getting in a dig too. But I think this is more a reference to what I said about me not having an education in Psychology. The last and only Psychology class I took was my Junior year of High School—not even at University. I said it to emphasize that I am not an expert in this. At least not an expert according to academic credentials.
This is exactly what I based my comment on, thank you RCR. I could care less about what degree people have or don't have. I will always question things that do not make sense to me. Sorry if that offends you HB. Didn't take you to be that thin skinned as you seem to say pretty much what you want, freely.
I have spent my entire adult life around people of EDUCATION. Believe me, I admire them but do not believe for one minute that they are in-fallable. As a matter of fact I often found their ability to learn often prevents them from learning the obvious. Being well educated does not make you any smarter or any dumber then the next, met plenty of dumb people with and without degrees. Met plenty of really smart people without degrees, too.
Call it my age "thing" people, my pet "peeve" if you like. I have watched everybody psycho analyze everything to death. Not just MLC, but every little thing. I am so sick of the "abuse excuse" or the "whatever excuse" and make no mistake, we may be quibbling over a word, but they are EXCUSES. Maybe I am old fashioned but when I was a kid, we knew EXACTLY what was right and wrong and the consequences of doing it were severe, the rewards for behaving were applied as well. No, I wasn't beaten but I knew I had stepped out of line. The lines are all BLURRY THESE DAYS. I don't know how anybody knows what they are suppose to do or not do.
I also resent and I mean the word RESENT... very strongly, being implemented in my husbands crisis whatsoever. Certainly, no marriage is perfect, nor was mine, but if ever a man had NO BLOODY REASON to go off half cocked, it was mine. He, along with many other "soldiers" was able to immerse himself into his career because he had a wife like me at home, manning the "homefront". While he was off "stemming the tide of Communist Aggression" as they were so fond of saying, their family, homes, bank accounts, cars and every other part of their life was taken care of. He might not have been 100% thrilled with me, but he had not RIGHT, or any EXCUSE to betray, abandon and deceive his children and I. In fact he OWED us far more then he could ever repay.
Also, when I went through my MENOPAUSE, I didn't BLAME him for my body having a chemical change. I didn't blame him for being crazy, teary and unpredictable. Nor did he for one second accept any of the BLAME for the way I felt. Heck, he didn't even make it easier, he certainly didn't hold back on what he thought of MY behaviour. I didn't hear him telling everybody... "Stayed can't help it, she is going through her change of life"... no, instead all I heard was, "what the hell is wrong with you, have you lost your mind?"
I'm not saying this is "tit for tat" time, but we women have changes in our life that are well documented, clearly defined, with very descriptive analysis of what is happening to us. Most MLCer's won't even ADMIT they are going through or having a crisis, until they have done it... then, it's oh please forgive me, "I was having a crisis"!
The big problem with Crisis ( I think I will stop calling them mid life) is that they are personal. There is nothing attractive about a crisis. A crisis is not somebody wrestling with a few issues. A crisis is almost always personally directed at somebody close to the person in Crisis. Someone in here said her unmarried brother had a crisis. He stopped all contact with his family members and then proceded to say and do terrible things about his parents. You see, there is the difference between this being a INCIDENT in their lives and a CRISIS.
I find that this is almost made out to be like an INCIDENT... a big... OOPS... me bad. Everything about this crisis is ugly. It rips apart families, destroys children's lives, can obviously bring about financial disaster for the entire family, it destroys self esteem, confidence, trust (in anything and anybody, not just of the person in crisis). WE are forced to discuss personal topics, even with our children (age related of course). It is gut wrenching, everything about it.
You are right HB, my h and I are long past this. WE still discuss this because many people ask me questions, deep personal questions, that I pass on to him and he very GRACIOUSLY tries to oblige. The reason I continue to bring up the AGE issue, is because it OFFENDS him, how everybody tries to reduce its importance. He resents everything being REDUCED to childhood issues, resolved or unresolved. He freely admits it was a horrible time. It felt like he was watching a movie and he was the "star" actor. He feels shame, pain and still some fear, that he could be a person that could do those sort of things, to someone that he knows did not deserve to be treated so horribly. He hates that his children cannot "accept" the "crisis" alibi. He of course fears, that it will happen to one if not more of them.
It simply has become another of the MENTAL illnesses of our times.
I'm not questioning your credentials HB or RCR. Or Jim Conways. I am simply saying we do not have all the answers. WE cannot talk about this like it is this, this and this and when I went through my this, this and this, and this what I was suppose to learn. I wish it were that cut and dried. I really do.
I believe you have about as many answers as I do HB. A lot of hypotheses and no real conclusions or solutions. For every answer, there a billion more questions. We have been fully reconciled for 5 full years. My h has opened his home, his heart and his mind to anybody and everybody. I haven't seen any other recovered CRISERS stepping up to the plate. Unless of course they were writing a book. Then they seem to have lots to say. My husband has had no benefit whatsoever from answering anybody's question, simply some peace of mind, that he may have EASED their troubled hearts a little. I guess you would say, he is paying back the second chance he has been granted.
hugs Stayed
-
I have come to the conclusion that experiencing our partners with MLC (if that is what it is) leaves us all a little nuts. :) :) :)
(Gently rocking)
You nailed it Freddy... we are all nuts... hugs Stayed
-
This is exactly what I based my comment on, thank you RCR. I could care less about what degree people have or don't have. I will always question things that do not make sense to me. Sorry if that offends you HB. Didn't take you to be that thin skinned as you seem to say pretty much what you want, freely.
I'm surprised at you, Stayed; what do you mean that I say pretty much what I want freely? LOL!!
I thought YOU did that! :)
All jokes aside, I'm like you; I question what I don't understand. I prefaced my post with the fact that I DO love you dearly; and furthermore, I have a very healthy respect what you have to say, even though sometimes I don't agree; but I don't expect you to always agree with me; and I felt I was probably coming across a little too blunt.
And God knows I would NOT hurt you for anything; you've brought a great deal to this table over time.
Nope, you missed boat on me being thin skinned, Stayed; if I see something I have a question about, I ask it for clarification; just like you do. :) Didn't offend me at all; I was actually surprised at seeing something like that written down, and from you, I probably SHOULDN'T have been so surprised; and so, I waded right in like I commonly do, and spoke freely, just like you said. :)
I'm not questioning your credentials HB or RCR. Or Jim Conways. I am simply saying we do not have all the answers. WE cannot talk about this like it is this, this and this and when I went through my this, this and this, and this what I was suppose to learn. I wish it were that cut and dried. I really do.
To be very honest, I wish it were that way too, one of those 12 step processes or something like you can find in a book about say, Alcoholism.
Yet, it doesn't work like that; it didn't work for me like that, either. It started out as trial and error, then it wasn't much easier when I found he'd left out one last issue.
And this last time, he's said nothing about it; but the last and final changes in him have been clearly evident that he's now past it all.
His relationship with our son has improved a thousandfold, as our son actually UNDERSTOOD what was happening; not only during the first one, but the second one, too. This really did make things easier for me, and my husband did some opening up to our son for a period of time during his second bout of crisis. I know about that, because Son was asking me questions about what his dad was revealing to him. Some of it I knew about, some I didn't; but I left that aspect alone...and at a later time, my husband opened up to me in other aspects.
I will say this; one of the reasons why they finally admit to being in crisis is that it all finally comes home to roost at a given time within them. I sincerely doubt anyone that goes through doesn't know they've gone through.
No excuses here, but unless a person has intuitive knowledge of what they endured; they are unable to explain the whats and whys of how they endured.
And since this is an emotional battle; it can make it that much harder to speak about it; those that come through successfully are more emotional than they were before; just like your husband is, Stayed.
You are right HB, my h and I are long past this. WE still discuss this because many people ask me questions, deep personal questions, that I pass on to him and he very GRACIOUSLY tries to oblige. The reason I continue to bring up the AGE issue, is because it OFFENDS him, how everybody tries to reduce its importance. He resents everything being REDUCED to childhood issues, resolved or unresolved. He freely admits it was a horrible time. It felt like he was watching a movie and he was the "star" actor. He feels shame, pain and still some fear, that he could be a person that could do those sort of things, to someone that he knows did not deserve to be treated so horribly. He hates that his children cannot "accept" the "crisis" alibi. He of course fears, that it will happen to one if not more of them.
Your husband still has some healing to do, Stayed, and the only way he's going to heal is to finish processing himself, and in time, reaching complete forgiveness of himself. From what you're describing; he's not reached that point. He's deeply hurt that his children cannot accept that he really did suffer through a major mid life crisis; having made some terrible mistakes that he can never take back or reverse.
The past itself is set in stone; he knows this intellectually; but emotionally, he still hurts for all he's done.
He's beating himself to pieces over something he cannot change.
He's become a giving, caring man; but in many ways, he's still broken hearted over his past actions.
His memories should be fading; but quite honestly; several aspects are still alive and well within him.
He's the ONLY one who can work his way through. He knows you've forgiven him; but it really is the forgiveness of himself that he cannot seem to reach; and this will take some additional time.
I understand his worry about the children going through this later in their lives; as I have thought several times of our son who endured through with me and his dad. And I wonder what will happen in the future, but know I don't have that in my control.
I believe you have about as many answers as I do HB. A lot of hypotheses and no real conclusions or solutions. For every answer, there a billion more questions.
There are never any clear solutions only trial and error in most cases. No one ever tells all they know; sometimes, the smallest details could make the biggest difference. Sometimes my insight will fill in the blanks, sometimes not; it all depends.
MLC can strike between the ages of 35 and 55; sometimes earlier, sometimes later, either triggered by a major event or even by a spouse that has just come through their own Transition, or Crisis.
To come through, and I DO know this for TRUTH and NOT hypothesis; EVERYTHING within a person must be faced, confronted, settled, resolved, and healed, and positive permanent CHANGE must take place within in order to come through whole and healed; and this takes time to complete.
The general time of a crisis can take 5 to 7 years, if not longer, but if it's shorter, the possibility increases that something or more than one something got "skipped" in that process; and this WILL bring on ANOTHER bout of crisis at a later time. This is another TRUTH I know; not a hypothesis. The times can vary from person to person.
There are other things I know for TRUTH; but too many to list, and I'm tired, anyway. :)
As each person is different, each crisis is different; what one will do another won't; but there ARE the aspects where the MLC'er act and speak just alike; which helps to figure out WHAT is going on.
The dynamics of the crisis are just as individual as the person going through.
After that, depending on each individual person, it's anybody's guess...but, there again; focusing on one's self, learning to be the opposite of what you were before, taking the journey to wholeness and healing, and learning everything you can learn about the crisis; and how it works.
The outcome is uncertain; but no time is wasted as long as you take the time to do the necessary work on yourself. The most confusing aspect of the crisis is that this is truly an individual journey where each person will do God knows what and arrive at God knows what outcome...personal choice is exercised at all times whether it be the MLC'er or the LBS. The LBS is considered the SANE one, whereas the MLC'er is considered the INSANE one.
Boundaries can be set for bad behavior; but don't look for the MLC'er to honor these boundaries unless they are enforced; and even then you may experience hard rebellion.
You really CANNOT use an ultimatum in the MLC affair if you might want to stay married after it is all said and done; and you still want the MLC'er.
On the other hand, you KNOW your MLC spouse better than anyone; and you would have a BETTER idea of what would work, and what wouldn't work in your situation/case.
Then again, the decision to stay married or not doesn't really belong to the LBS; it actually belongs to the MLC'er, regardless of what the LBS wants, and most do want to stay married if possible. :)
The LBS, however, can STOP standing, and end everything ANYTIME they choose; although a chance is taken when the LBS decides to stand.
I will say this: I knew the outcome from the beginning, Stayed; YET, throughout all the time I was walking through this trial, I was prepared for EVERY possibility that COULD happen, regardless of what I "knew". My husband could have decided at ANY time to walk away;(he had that kind of power, but SO DID I) and in spite of learning that aspect, I still chose to stand; whether I looked like an idiot or not. :)
It wasn't until I figured out that I had the SAME power of decision that he did, that my stand became much easier to carry out. I also came to know circumstances can change at ANY time, and I could have found myself NOT married.
That did NOT stop me from pursuing my own life, walking my own journey; and taking care of myself. :)
Have a good night. :)
-
HB, I never had any knowing about whether my h and I would stay together or not. I think anybody who had been married as long as I was, definitely had trouble imagining that we wouldn't be together again, but it was more out of familiarity then it was out of a KNOWING.
Standing is a personal choice. I could care less what other people thought about what I did. Not their business. They are free to do what they want, not my business. Never even gave it a second thought about what other people might think. I was not ready to let go of my hope for a reconciliation. My choice. I would have let go, when and if he had not come out of this by the time I had finished processing it... I would have moved on without him. That I can say with certainty. I felt then and still feel no obligation to a marriage that my h had already broken.
Also, I have very few TRUTHS, other then speaking my mind about what I absolutely know. As I have NEVER had a crisis, I honestly do not know what he had to do to get where he is now. I tend to think many do not do as much as they should, but like I said... I DO NOT KNOW... SO I will not pretend I do.
I think my h is pretty much through this, further along then you tend to think he is. You have never met him, you have no idea what he was like before and the man he is now. So there really is no way of you knowing. He is not having any trouble forgiving himself. He is very good at protecting his inner equilibrium.
His children are only rationalizing this, as he himself would have before he went through this. Believe me, he would have mocked anybody else who claimed to be going through such an episode. We often reap what we sew HB. He showed very little empathy for anything that they went through when they were growing up, so expecting and receiving empathy now from them, seems to be a little over reaching.
I'm really not as cold indifferent as I sound about this, but seriously, his children are all over the quarter century point, they have opinions of their own. If he wants to resolve this with them, then it is going to have to be him to approach it because they definitely will not. Seeing as he won't, I think it cannot be as pressing as we might think it is.
hugs Stayed
-
Just a brief aside here, still on subject, but a little distraction.
We established in an earlier part that this has been going on for centuries, in the Bible and in history, but seems more common now.
What we are debating is how much we understand (or not) whether we are assessing correctly (or not) whether we are showing empathy (or not).
How many women and men with this problem were burned at the stake in times gone by, or in fact even now in this modern age in far eastern or african countries, are stoned to death for this behaviour?
As we know and see, few people in society would be standers.
If the law in Western countries was not as it is, would there be brutal responses?
-
I feel like jumping in here...
I did have my own crisis, not at midlife but much earlier on, in response to many stressful factors in my FOO. Early enough that it could be attributed to youthful folly, but I know myself how much of a crisis it was, particularly in hindsight. Deep depression was a part of it. I didn't hurt a husband and children, but certainly did behave very, very badly to my parents, and to a certain extent other family members. And I got involved with someone I shouldn't have. Perhaps I hurt that person when I came out of it, I'm not really sure.
So was it personal? Well, not the same way that our spouse's MLC is against us, but yes, it was a sort of rebellion against my family. Although at the time of course I didn't agree that it was. I was just "choosing to live differently", claiming that I was very happy.
I remember what it was like, that I was just pressing on ahead with the choices I had made, acknowledging those as choices, thinking that what I was doing was right. I also remember the waking-up process.... to outsiders it looked like "one minute I was gone, the next I was back"; but of course it wasn't like that. And coming out of it wasn't without it's stresses, either.
That was now a long time ago, thankfully, and I know I have erased a lot of it (a good thing), but I do remember that all along there were people telling me that I was making a mistake, that I was heading down a wrong path, you name it. I totally refused to listen, even laughed at it, all that. And then I didn't want to come out of it because I didn't want the "I told you so" speeches.
In the end I realised that I HAD been making a huge mistake, and decided to brave the "I told you so"s of which there turned out not to be any..... And then, boy, did I move fast. The whole process took over 5 years, btw....
And I HAD established a totally different life, which proved surprisingly easy to dismantle.... and went back to what was my "real" life, albeit of course with some changes. But I was able to slip back in. And yes, I went around apologising profusely to those I had hurt.
Does that make me any kind of expert? Of course not. But it does give me some empathy, and does affect how I treat, or try to treat, my MLCer. I do remember how I was treated while I was in it, and to this day am a bit distant with those who were very nasty. And I particularly do remember those friends who tried to keep up with me despite also feeling that I was doing wrong.
Yes, it was me making those choices at the time, but a lot did have to do with things that were going on in my family, they weren't without blame, even if they weren't directly responsible for my actions. so that helps me see my own role in things now as well.
Just wanted to say that....
-
If the law in Western countries was not as it is, would there be brutal responses?
Yes, there would be brutal responses. The adultery part of the crisis occurs here in the west because it is "permitted". It is part of the culture. Books, movies, television, and celebrities in the news engage in it and it is called "affairs" or it is trivialised to the point where it is accepted as virtually the norm.
honour
-
Interesting T&L... very interesting. I am sure it would give you a unique experience. Can't decide whether I should be wishing I had screwed up my life, been able to put it back together again and then I would have a better understanding about this stuff.
Definitely food for thought T&L... thanks.
hugs Stayed
-
If the law in Western countries was not as it is, would there be brutal responses?
Yes, there would be brutal responses. The adultery part of the crisis occurs here in the west because it is "permitted". It is part of the culture. Books, movies, television, and celebrities in the news engage in it and it is called "affairs" or it is trivialised to the point where it is accepted as virtually the norm.
honour
You are so right honour, my h actually said to me as he walked out the door.... "this is what people do Stayed... there is always ANOTHER PERSON... grow up!" and he left.
Stayed
-
Sometimes it makes you wonder if these guys in the East have a point about Western way of life. There are extremes I know, but I think you can have excitement in a marriage without going outside it, for what?
I have learnt so much, changed so much, and feel so much better.
Maybe I should not say it, but I think this crisis of my spouse has made me self examine, be a better, more tolerant person. Nothing is black or white to me.
My future may be financial damaged, but the future looks bright even if I am alone. Keep smiling. :)
-
If the law in Western countries was not as it is, would there be brutal responses?
Yes, there would be brutal responses. The adultery part of the crisis occurs here in the west because it is "permitted". It is part of the culture. Books, movies, television, and celebrities in the news engage in it and it is called "affairs" or it is trivialised to the point where it is accepted as virtually the norm.
And yet, with all of those brutal responses in the past (and "honor killings" and the like in the present day), adultery still happened and still happens. Assaulting or killing people who cheat doesn't work as a deterrent; it's just a culturally-approved form of revenge.
It might also be worth considering that many cultures, past and present, arrange marriages or otherwise dictate who their children can marry. Marriage may seem less like a blessed covenant and more like a burden or a prison when you're married off to some guy twice your age, or to some woman you've never met.
-
HB
I will say this: I knew the outcome from the beginning, Stayed; YET, throughout all the time I was walking through this trial, I was prepared for EVERY possibility that COULD happen, regardless of what I "knew". My husband could have decided at ANY time to walk away;(he had that kind of power, but SO DID I) and in spite of learning that aspect, I still chose to stand; whether I looked like an idiot or not.
This is how I have always seen my M with Honey...I always knew where it would end. But, Like you I have a choice whether I want that end to happen. I have never doubted that we would be married and together. But the pressures of the crisis cause me to end my stand on a continual basis, because Its emotionally draining. :)
I have though reached a end to MY enabling of HIS crisis and had a very nice discussion about MY bounderies.
and so far Honey has complied and respected them.
Funny, is one boundery was No more talks about HIS R with OW..and he started to slip lastnight telling me he's not happy and then he said "oops, so how about that heat on your toes" (we were in the car heading to the store) LOL!
-
And yet, with all of those brutal responses in the past (and "honor killings" and the like in the present day), adultery still happened and still happens. Assaulting or killing people who cheat doesn't work as a deterrent; it's just a culturally-approved form of revenge.
It might also be worth considering that many cultures, past and present, arrange marriages or otherwise dictate who their children can marry. Marriage may seem less like a blessed covenant and more like a burden or a prison when you're married off to some guy twice your age, or to some woman you've never met.
I agree. But in the west, culture tends the other way: adultery is romanticised. People who haven't been through this can't understand our pain because, "its just the way life is, get on with it" because they have been conditioned to have a softened view of it. Which is why we are all here huddling together for support.
honour
-
Well maybe in an arranged marriage people learn how to love each other without the "LOVE HORMONES",
but because of respect, trust and communication.
Maybe they have a more solid foundation than those of us that were just in it for "LOVE".
-
Of course people have always cheated - I also thought about the fact that they might have been hung for it in the past and maybe that wasn't a deterrent but at least they weren't rewarded with a reality show or spot on a talk show.
Culture certainly has at least something to do with this...how much I don't know but certainly there is more propensity now to give a pass on, or "understand" bad behavoir then there ever was. All I have to do is watch my friend's children or my own neices and nephews as they run under other people's tables at restaurants or tell their parents off with no consequences, not even a quiet reprimand, to know that.
My parents generation had couples that fell apart, that had cheating or someone walking out but it was shocking, shameful, a blight on that person's "record". Anyone shocked these days when it happens to someone that you know? I don't think so.
-
Actually, many of those marriages are very successful. I have a friend who is from India... her marriage was arranged and she has always been very happy. They believe, that who knows them better then anybody in the world...then family. Judging by the success rate, it appears to be true.
As for the honour killings etc... sick. That's just wrong!
hugs Stayed...
-
Actually, many of those marriages are very successful. I have a friend who is from India... her marriage was arranged and she has always been very happy. They believe, that who knows them better then anybody in the world...then family. Judging by the success rate, it appears to be true.
When I was thinking of arranged marriages, I was thinking of situations in less-developed countries where women are married off at a young age and treated little better than a servant.
Obviously, not every arranged marriage is unsuccessful, just as non-arranged marriages are successful. I may have painted with too broad of a brush, and I apologise.
-
oh ok... :-[ would you be referring to the ones where the girl is about 6 and her new h is 86 (ok slight embellishment there, hehehe) 46. Those arranged marriages are disgusting. Which is more NORMAL, I'm not really up on these thing?
hugs Stayed
-
there is always ANOTHER PERSON... grow up!" and he left.
Their insensitivity knows no bounds.
My W said to my son during the only contact they've had since she vanished, "now that you and your sister have grown up it is time for me to grow up." Do we therefore conclude that to the MLCer being a faithful, honest and a loving spouse is immature and naive, whilst on the otherhand lies, deceit and adultery is mature, grown up behaviour? More evidence of the back-front-thinking process in the MLC brain?
honour
-
Hard not to SHOCKED isn't it? I always laugh when people say, "you know your spouse better then anybody else"... I didn't have a clue who that guy was that pried my arms off from his legs, as he stomped out the door saying,
there is always ANOTHER PERSON... grow up!" and he left.
. He didn't even look like my husband.
Honour, I don't think we assume anything. The sooner we can pick ourselves up and get sorted out, the better able we are to look at what has befallen us. If I could PREVENT one person from NEVER having to feel this excruciating pain, I would gladly do anything. Unfortunately, there is just no other way but, through!
hugs Stayed
-
oh ok... :-[ would you be referring to the ones where the girl is about 6 and her new h is 86 (ok slight embellishment there, hehehe) 46. Those arranged marriages are disgusting. Which is more NORMAL, I'm not really up on these thing?
hugs Stayed
Honestly, I don't know which is more common. But I'd venture a guess that the correlation between the type of arranged marriages I was thinking of and things like "honor killings", stoning adulterers, etc. is pretty high.
-
You are so right honour, my h actually said to me as he walked out the door.... "this is what people do Stayed... there is always ANOTHER PERSON... grow up!" and he left.
There's that microchip that seems to be inserted into our MLCers again. More evidence of 'the script' - mine said ' this is what people do Kikki ......... they leave for another person ..... it happens all of the time'.
-
You are so right honour, my h actually said to me as he walked out the door.... "this is what people do Stayed... there is always ANOTHER PERSON... grow up!" and he left.
There's that microchip that seems to be inserted into our MLCers again. More evidence of 'the script' - mine said ' this is what people do Kikki ......... they leave for another person ..... it happens all of the time'.
:o :o :o :o lucky me, never got to hear that one!
of course, there is always another person...there was always another person during all those years they send with us, right?... ::) ::) ::)
-
My thoughts ...
This is interesting to me as I can see the 'big picture' unfolding yet can also see that some of the pieces for some of us (me included) just don't 'fit'!
So we can either keep trying to squash a square 'view/perspective/attitude whatever' into a round piece of MLC/Life Crisis or we can see how lucky and fortunate we ALL are to have this forum/& the people we meet from this forum etc to help us work through this indescribable situation and support ourself getting clearer perspectives; because we are in regard to our own situation emotionally too attached (You don't say?) and like any decision ever made in life emotions are attached to them.
From Banker's to CEO's of large conglomerate's armed with facts. figures and expert advice STILL
make decisions based on emotions.
I have studied 'emotional economics' in relation to my work and the workplace and in my job as a consultant I can see how the theory makes sense as I can actually see it in practice .... unfolding and happening right before my eyes ... stupid decisions made based on personal hidden emotions/feelings.
MLC has opened my eyes in relation to my work life in how destructive it is to hide how you feel about ?? Not put your head above the parapet etc. (NO One is doing this at the moment and its understandable - recession etc. but so destructive) emotions and feelings discussed in a controlled way can be assist towards a good outcome BUT
More important is if you don't admit it to your colleagues then the consequences can be costly, cause bad moral etc but not admitting it to yourself puts you into a spiral downwards at some later date when you can see that if you had said what you felt you may have made a change for the better and even if ignored you would feel at least you tried - but the emotions and feelings need control over them and at work this can be done if you train how you communicate it?
Accountability is invisible in the workplace .. these days .. its head down and maybe I wont be noticed and blamed if it goes wrong and I can pop up if it goes right and smile as if I was involved ??
SO ..
RE: Our MLC ers issues we need to (IMO) approach it a similar way .. use our intuition, listen to advice and have an open mind Why because all we can only do is work this out by having first a flexible mindset, then use our own experiences - good and bad and read others perceptions, experiences and that includes articles/books.
I am seeing daily more clearly (via the forum/friends of the forums) through the dissection of MLC that whilst each MLC er is different the pain is the same and to emerge from this whole you need to determine for you what is acceptable behaviours and do not compromise.
Accountability is important to me but so is actions that show an appreciation of the pain the MLC er has put the family through.
I know from experience - with my sister - now doing what she has done in the past again .. because I had not addressed her bad behaviours, as my Mother would no let me - in fact no one ever has she was a sickly child and my mother let her get away with every and anything and she still is .. but to her detriment whilst I was always learning to cope - lots of love in my childhood but by a mother who wasn't like me in anyway and didn't get me (anti me going to University, working abroad, living in big cities blah blah so I learnt to have to be strong and force my wishes without compromise but with kindness if possible to be me.
My sister blames my mother for her missed chances/opportunities ... has never once seen it as being in her control to have made changes/taken opportunities like I did ... she has reinvented history and its centred around how hard done to she was but if you talked to anyone in our family she had it everything she wanted .. but is not happy .. pretends to be but?
the book they F*** YOU UP (http://www.selfishcapitalist.com/they_f_you_extract.html)
extract below; is great and says so much about childhood and how it can stop developmental issues in one child and not the others in a family etc A perfectly happy childhood abundence of love and attention can still cause developmental issues - unless your parents are perfect!! And we all know that is not the case ...
Half the battle is acceptance that your parents are not always great, right, perfect and as you get older they need to treat you as an equal?
Whilst schizophrenia is not the main focus of this book, it is a cause célèbre in the nature—nurture debate. My answer to this specific question is distributed throughout the book. Towards the end of Chapter 2 I present a wide variety of evidence that the role in which we are cast within our family drama can be highly influential. In later chapters, I show how early infantile experiences may create a potential for the illness. Whether this potential is realized may depend on subsequent childcare, in particular whether our parents give mixed messages and are unsupportive, and whether they are abusive. Only in some cases are genes the main reason; in others it may be largely or wholly environment, and in others still it may include elements of both nature and nurture — and schizophrenia is one of the most genetic human characteristics there is.
As this book proceeds, you will see that the real tension in explaining why we are as we are in most respects is between past and present, not nature and nurture.
My principal question is this: to what extent is the way we were cared for during our first six years more influential on the kind of adult we have become, compared with the second or third period of six years, or present-day adult experiences such as unemployment or divorce? In particular, how is the kind of care received during different periods within the first six years linked to specific adult outcomes?
I think HB is right when she councils that the time taken is important to get the MLC er through their issues and to quote RCR: which fits in to the above books views -
Childhood seems to be a loaded term. MLC is rooted in unresolved developmental pieces. Age is not a root—it’s the present, so it’s a branch of the tree, not a root. The tree is made up of the roots, the trunk and the branches. MLC is a factor of all of those pieces of the tree, not just one. Suppose childhood was perfect and somethin g triggers a person into MLC. It doesn’t mean their childhood caused MLC, but it created who they are and thus can influence how they handle—coping skills—the crisis. A positive childhood can help a person metter navigate through a midlife transition even a transition that becomes a crisis.
and a Philip Larkin Poem .......
They firetruck you up, your mum and dad.
They may not mean to, but they do.
They fill you with the faults they had
And add some extra, just for you.
But they were firetrucked up in their turn
By fools in old-style hats and coats,
Who half the time were soppy-stern
And half at one another's throats.
Man hands on misery to man.
It deepens like a coastal shelf.
Get out as early as you can,
And don't have any kids yourself.”
This is the best way to see the issues of the MLC er as pieces of a much bigger picture .. we learn and hope they can too and then just see what can be achieved .. if they can't work it out for themselves they can't ever be accountable to us IMO as they can never understand what they have learnt from this crisis .. so accountability should be an evolving process and if you have to wear yourself out demanding it then maybe its not worth it ....
Love B x