[stayed]

That's my worry too Growing every day.  I see less and less accountability all the time.  We are constantly telling us LBS's that we must take responsibility for our part in this mess.  Yet we continuously make excuses for our MLCer, he/she is out their minds.  WE must go gently or they will run back to their cave.  Hello, maybe they should stay in their "caves" until they have it figured out, quit coming out and peeking at us, seeing if we have stayed where they left us, say something ignorant or indifferent again, and get all p*ssy when we say something they don't like. 

Hellllllllllllllllllloooooooooooo!  There is no way of playing this, so totally forget about your MLCer, let them do whatever they are going to do and totally EMPOWER YOURSELF.  Grow strong.  Figure out what you would really like to see happen in your life, then go and get it.  I know, easy said, hard to do, but for goodness sake, we have to stop with the POOR MLCer... I don't know how they got there, I might have contributed, I might not have... but I eventually got to the point where I didn't care anymore.  He either figured it our or he didn't. 

As you all know, he figured it out.  The longer we have been out of this, the more I realize the LBSer has nothing to do with this... but we sure make the difference if they decide to return.

Dontgiveup, how can you say that with such ABSOLUTISM!  How can you deny that age does NOT cause the crisis, with such authority, such 100% certainty?  How is that our CHILDHOOD / teens cause us all kinds of ISSUES when we become adults, yet growing old has ABSOLUTELY no part in the issues that we are all seeing CLEARLY MANIFEST before our very eyes?     

Who says this stuff?  Good old Jim Conway, HB, RCR, last two who freely admit neither of them are psychologists or have much more then 1 semester of psychology at university?  The stuff I am reading doesn't DISMISS mid life crisis as nothing to do with AGE.  Why would it materialize with AGE especially around the 40-50 point, if age had nothing to do with it? 

Does it make people feel better to be able to somehow make this about our spouses childhood?  Blame on the terrible parenting we all go.  What?  I just don't get it? 
hugs Stayed

[Dontgiveup]

"The stuff I am reading doesn't DISMISS mid life crisis as nothing to do with AGE."

The information below does not say age has nothing to do with MLC.  It says age is an incubator.....just not the cause.

"ageism is often blamed, but it is also not a cause of midlife crisis; rather it is an incubator, providing ideal cultural conditions. Symptoms are outward manifestations, not the cause of the crisis."


Also, the information does not necessarily say bad childhood.  It says unresolved issues from childhood/adolescence.  The three emotional components that seem to typically be associated with this are love, self-esteem and coping skills.

[BonBon]

I'm no expert and can only speak through my own experience but my husband has said throughout this period that he is terrified of growing old.  He fears he will be irrelevant, disregarded, considered a stodgy, doddering old fool.  He does not want to lose his looks, his faculties, live in pain, be incapable of doing the things he likes to do.

His issues began shortly before his 45th birthday and that was the birthday he started grumbling about as it approached...to the point of being nasty when the impending birthday was brought up.

Since I'm three years older than he, he has constantly asked me how it is I can handle the fact that I am aging since "the quest for youth, the dismissal of the elderly...it's everywhere around you, all day, each day...how can it not bother you???".
Honestly, he's asked me that probably 30 times in the last three years.

His childhood issues may have contributed to this but honestly, if at all, only a bit in my opinion...I think a lack of self esteem probably fueled this to some extent but there is no way he had so many unresolved issues that it would explain his behavior.  I truly feel that his lack of self esteem and the culture of youth, the high regard placed on looks and money and youth, and the lack of morality and accountability all played a part in this.

I have told him the following...you either grow old or you die.  If you are lucky enough to grow old and you choose to be miserable throughout, then you are wasting the precious time you've been given and that is one hell of a shame.  Surround yourself with people your own age who understand, surround yourself with people who love you and don't give a fig how old you are, and value the time and wisdom you've been given and consider it a gift.  Shame on you if you don't.

If you want to fight your age, that's ok in some innocuous ways...stay fit, use lotions...whatever.  But if you want to regress and time travel back to being a 20 year old, then you're a fool because all you will have accomplished will be to have romantized a period that frankly, wasn't as great as you now remember it and you'll expose yourself as an old geezer trying to look like a teenager....and with that you will assure yourself exactly what you feared the most..that people will think you're an old fool. 

I believe that these statements have helped him.  They were said once I had figured out that he was just fearing his age.  I believe it needed to be said and said often and said clearly as he has regurgitated these very things to me and has claimed they are helpful to him in the last year or so.

I have yet to see how this MLC is rooted in his childhood in any substantial way.  Maybe it did indeed happen because he was immature and that could be a childhood issue...I don't know and at this point, I'm really not even sure that I care to be quite honest.  I've analyzed it to death and all I've ever had firm and positive evidence of is his fear of aging.  And that is something he's just going to have to deal with as we all do.  It isn't an excuse to go off the rails.  Certainly this terror has caused him to go into a depression and I believe that is where the fog came in as that can happen but he isn't mentally ill...not pathologically at least.  Either way,  it still is not an excuse and he's going to have to face his issues and the issues he caused me as well.   

[Freddygone]

You know, I am wondering if all this is about accountability?
Years ago my nephew started driving. He passed his driving test and had a succession of accidents. My brother kept repairing and replacing cars because 'none of these accidents were nephews fault'.
It's like no fault divorce. If you are not accountable you have no responsibility.
An old joke, 'My mother in law has never been in an accident, but she has seen thousands'. :-)
I have just realised what Stayed is saying.
If you don't have any accountability you can play a game forever, stay in your tunnel or cave as everyone else has to worry about it.
For 2 years I have voluntarily paid my wife maintenance. She has not looked for a job. Its the easy way out always.
I suppose in this life there are always passengers. 
Maybe I am detaching or just losing patience.
Is the Titanic sinking? No, play another tune.

[Dontgiveup]

Bon Bon

Yes, my ex-wife made statements about growing older as well.  I think that's what RCR is referring to as an outward manifestation....or a symptom.

From Bon Bon
"I think a lack of self esteem probably fueled this to some extent but there is no way he had so many unresolved issues that it would explain his behavior."

Dr Dobson touches on this in Conway's book "Women in Midlife Crisis".  Self-esteem is one of the emotional pieces that is specifically mentioned.  I'm not sure that the MLCer has to have many unresolved issues.  I think it's more about what those specific issues are, including self-esteem and coping skills.

And the point that Dr Dobson and Conway....and others.....have made is that self-esteem is developed during childhood/adolescence, so that is the correlation.

From Bon Bon
"I truly feel that his lack of self esteem and the culture of youth, the high regard placed on looks and money and youth, and the lack of morality and accountability all played a part in this."

I agree with the above....and I think I have seen those things referred to by RCR as "catalysts" for the MLC.

"But if you want to regress and time travel back to being a 20 year old, then you're a fool because all you will have accomplished will be to have romantized a period that frankly, wasn't as great as you now remember it and you'll expose yourself as an old geezer trying to look like a teenager....and with that you will assure yourself exactly what you feared the most..that people will think you're an old fool."

And this in many cases is a very good description of what happens during the MLC process before Liminality.

From Bon Bon
"I've analyzed it to death and all I've ever had firm and positive evidence of is his fear of aging."

Yes, because the evidence is the symptoms.  Symptoms help us to "diagnose".

[ece711]

Yes, because the evidence is the symptoms.  Symptoms help us to "diagnose".

Be careful...  diagnosing = wanting to fix
                  wanting to fix = not detaching.

[OldPilot]

There are a lot of moving parts to a MLC, childhood issues is one of them, maybe age, hormones, depression, body chemistry, triggers, the LBS and maybe something else that I am leaving out.
You can not blame any single one of these things as the CAUSE,  it is the perfect storm and they are all the ingredients.


Authors of midlife topics include Conway,(Jim and Sally), Jed Diamond, Understanding Men's Passages by Gail Sheehy and others.

So when HB,RCR,DGU repeat what they have learned I do not cast doubt on it.
I have read the same material.
I think if you read the above book by Sheehy you will see that different events happen in our lives and every 10 years or so their can be a transition, and those can lead to a crisis if the conditions are right.

Although I agree with everything else that you wrote, there is no way to PLAY this, other than what you said STAYED

[justasking]

The dictionary says

Diagnosis;

Definition: identification of problem, disease
Notes: a diagnosis: the process of identifying or determining the nature of a diseased condition or the conclusion reached

No mention of fixing, they leave that to us and one way is to diagnose the symptoms you see and detach as part of our movement forward whilst the MLC works it out.

[Rollercoasterider]

Anyway, my Aunt is reading articles from the site. Her take is that as a species we are living longer. 40 is the new 60. So, years ago we would have been dead by the ripe old age of 45-50. Now we live to be 80. Life is hard. It's stressful and complicated.

Well, first I certainly hope youn meant that 60 is the new 40…otherwise I might start my own MLC!

These are common ideas and they are actually inaccurate. Just because the average lifespan at the start oif the 20th century was ~49 does not mean a person was considered old at 49. It did not mean people thought that they were close to death and were moving in with their kids. They were still 49. The average age of mortality is measured for the entire age range. Infant mortality was high and there were many others who survived infancy, but not childhood. Those early deaths broguht the average down significantly. Then what about casualties of war? And what about the possibly common incidents of deaths by acciedent and injury—farming accidents, hunting accidents… Those people did not consider themselves old and yet they died.

Even now when researchers look at age groups and mortality they sometimes give averages within groups. So a woman between 60-69 may have a certain risk of dying within the next 5 years. That risk is different for different age ranges and for some it is higher at younger ranges, goes down and then goes back up—think young adult men.

People lived into their 80s 100, 200,300 and 2000 years ago. Not as many lived that long because some of those robust individuals died in accidents or war or just the harsher conditions of life they may have had then as compared to now.

I think it was the book Sex at Dawn that went over some of this—and I was so relieved to see someone finally admit it.

I am not convinced that MLC is brought on by a troubled/unhappy/unpleasant childhood/adolescence…
When my husband came out of his crisis, when asked what he felt caused it, he simply said, "I felt like I was growing old and that if I did not take advantage of what YOUTH I had left in me, the window of opportunity would prevent me from ever finding happiness." Whenever I read the articles or comments by DGU, HB, RCR, anybody that this CRISIS is caused by a troubled/ unresolved issues etc. he becomes quite angry. He has continuously maintained, EVERYBODY HAS ISSUES... not everybody did what he did. His childhood wasn't great but it wasn't horrible either.
… I have no objections to the inclusion of childhood/teen issues but please could we keep a bit more open mind and admit that there are a lot of reasons why people are having mid life crisis. There is not reason not to honestly consider the fact that we are living longer, that 60 is the new 40, perhaps the idea of 2 being able to remain happy and content for 50/60 years or more, is a bit too much to ask of anybody.

Sweetheart had a great childhood too. That does not mean there are not issues, of course everyone has issues. It’s about the ability to deal with those issues, it’s about coping skills and many may seem to have acceptable coping skills until something strikes. It may be an external event—death, weather, terrorism, illness… That even may bring up thoughts that brings up buried or repressed issues. I am not into blaming the inner child—I hate that term because I associate it with excuses. But that does not mean that our history stays history. It influences who we were, who are and who we become.

Looking at Sweetheart’s childhood I can find a few things, but they aren’t about the type of trauma we think of. His cousin drowned on a family picnic—he was 12 or 13. Around that same time his sister’s Lupus became active—she was also about puberty age. She apparently spent months at Children’s Hospital and she almost died.

When he was a bit younger—maybe 6-8(?) His Dad was in an explosion at work. I don’t knnow how long he was in the hospital—days or weeks(?)—but I think he spent a lot of time recovering at home also.

None of those incidents were preventable or blamable. They were not about abuse or violence, they were accidents and an illness. Did they contribute significantly? I don’t know. Did he feel he was losing the love of his parents while it was focused on Dad or his sister? I don’t know.

But that does not mean I think the Shadow force is not significant in everyone. And I mean everyone MLC or not. I think it is something we all deal with at life transitions—which we all go through. Whether those become a crisis is influenced by the level of issues within those shadows—so greater trauma in childhood may mean a person is at greater risk—or not. But I think what is more important is their level of coping skills. There are many people out there who had horrific childhoods but learned then or later to cope and have become successful and managed to cope well through their life transisitons. And there are many people who had healthy childhoods with little to no trauma who have poor coping skills and are at greater risk.

Forget trauma for a moment and consider parenting. Did Mom coddle? Was Dad hard to please? Were one or both oversheltering so that their children did not learn independence well? What sort of adult lives(coping, critical thinking, social…) did their parents and other adult figures model? Dependence, codependence, independence, partnerships…? How did those authority figures deal with conflict? Childhood is an important place to look, not for the purpose of rooting out trauma and abuse but to look for what the then child was taught, how that child was prepared for becoming an adult. Part of that preparation for adulthood is in preparing for look-backs—how to handle those unresolved issues when they do surface.

As for Stayed’s husband’s words about it being about losing youth…that is a common MLC symptom. Unfortunately it has been spread around many professional articles as the only symptom—MLC is about aging, the fear of death and wanting to prevent it. Many professionals consider that to be the litmus test for whether a person is in MLC or not. A person’s MLC may have that as a part of it, but it is not a requirement for MLC. It is a regression to youth even when the person does not recongize it as such. And Stayed’s husband was able to articulate it amazingly well—that is unusual. Maybe that is because he is through the crisis, but even then I find his articulation amazing.

Consider this.
If MLC is in part about reintegrating missed pieces of earlier development, the MLCEr may regress to the age at which those pieces are typically integrated—or the age directly preceding. But if a person does not know this is the reason for the age regression, they may come to other conclusions for the regression. It seems an easier answer to say the person doesn’t want to grow older or that they are afraid of growing older or that they are losing their youth. They may interpret it this way too—because who is going to intelectualize it to the level that they think of it in terms of Ericksonian Development. It’s a lot easier to say they are afraid they are lsoing their youth.

That doesn’t mean that the fear of losing youth is also a valid contributer, but just because a person thinks that is the reason for their behaviour does not mean they are correct or that they are not also missing other reasons. I find self-reporting to be one of the least reliable forms.

I do not think it is a good idea of giving people such an easy "out". Why does SOMEBODY ELSE always have to be RESPONSIBLE for another persons state of mind. Be it parents, grandparents, school bullies, whatever... perhaps, people just are more concerned about their own personal well being then they are about each other and the spouses they marry and the children they produce from their union.

This is one of the greatest misunderstandings. People so often think that searching for reasons and patahways leading to present behavior is the same as looking for excuses. There is evidence that children who are sexually abused may have a higher risk of becoming sexual abusers. That doesn’t mean they will and it doesn’t mean they will not. It also doesn’t mean that their damaged childhood removes them from culpability. But it does give us a pattern to explore when we are considering prevention and it gives us something that may be useful in therapy with abusers. Why one person abuses may be different than why another person abuses and those two peope need help specific to themselvse, not to the other person.

MLC is not an excuse; it is an explanatory label. It’s not a get out of jail free card, but understanding a what lead a person to their present state can help us with compassion, empathy and it can help the helpers.

I found a very interesting article on the increase of divorce with the change in divorce laws in the late 60's by Pres. Reagan. There is also some speculation about the change in attitude about marriage. Marriage at one time was security, responsibility based on the welfare and safety of the family unit. In the 70's it changed to "soul mate" marriages. A intense, passionate relationship to your mate. Higher expectations of personal happiness over the welfare and over all good of the family.

This is much of what the Calition for Divorce Reform has been studying and using to spread the word.

Divorce rates skyrocketed with No-Fault laws and the idea of love and marriage changed either at the same time independently or with the laws—perhaps preceding the law and motivating some of the changes.

Is that the same as MLC?
No?

Has it influenced MLC?
Of course.
It has also made it easier for someone in MLC to just leave, where 50 years ago that same person might have suffered through. That person may also have been more likely to get stuck since both partners may have felt forced to remain married—though that may not have been the case at all. Maybe feeling forced to stay together also encouraged them to work through the crisis. I admit to being doubtful, but I have not studied that.

I also wonder if living longer, coupled with a materialistic, individualistic , youth obsessed and throw away culture in the context of relatively wealthy, time rich, educated societies has more to do with MLC than we willingly accept.
OH YES!!!!  I totally believe this!

Other than the living longer portion, yes I think this is a major factor. But that does not mean upbringing, traumatic or other is not also a factor. It’s a perfect storm that can be prevented before it happens, but once it has started the person needs to see it through.

The implication of some missing development in childhood or youth makes me think that this lack of experience makes the Mid lifer not be equiped to deal with this panic. In blind panic our brains may overload and not cope properly. Some of us are more mentally strong.

Missing Development is not synonymous with abuse or some other trauma. Whose development is perfect? We are all missing something! How we handle that missing piece when it surfaces for integration makes a difference.[/i]

If you have had a number of boyfriend girlfrend relationships and you met up later in life with some chancer when your guard was down you would have the experince (maybe) to recognise a chancer for who he is.
I maintain that probably we have all been through these experiences that our partners are struggling with, but we probably had the experience, or witnessed someone else have this experience, so that we dealt with it in a way that damged few other people.
That is why this Forum is so valuable. Knowledge is King, the more you read the more you build up your own immunity to being damaged. We gain strength from the experience of many many people here and we filter it to suite our own situation.
We become our own experts in our own situation. That is the best we can do. Hopefully we can use that knowledge to understand and help those less fortunate.

…we make EXCUSES for just about anything anybody does. …Absolutely everything these days has a REASON for why they did this or that.

This is where I find we are limited by langauge.
Excuses does not equal excusable.
Reason does not equal reasonable.

But shouldn’t they? That would make sense and linguistically they are probably meant to work as equals. I want a word that means what I am saying—something has a reason but is not reasonable, excusable or justifiable…but what is the word?

So we use the terms reason and excuse and don’t mean reasonable and excusable, but we have to qualify that so people know what we mean and things feel so unclear. Maybe there are words and I am just not thinking of them.

From MLC Overview article
"Aging does not cause midlife crisis--it is inevitable; midlife crisis is not. Since midlife crisis seems to be isolated to technologically advanced Western cultures lacking in ritual rites of passage, ageism is often blamed, but it is also not a cause of midlife crisis; rather it is an incubator, providing ideal cultural conditions. Symptoms are outward manifestations, not the cause of the crisis."

Dontgiveup, how can you say that with such ABSOLUTISM!  How can you deny that age does NOT cause the crisis, with such authority, such 100% certainty?  How is that our CHILDHOOD / teens cause us all kinds of ISSUES when we become adults, yet growing old has ABSOLUTELY no part in the issues that we are all seeing CLEARLY MANIFEST before our very eyes?     
…Why would it materialize with AGE especially around the 40-50 point, if age had nothing to do with it?

Because if aging caused it, we’d all have an MLC. Well, that is a simplistic answer and of course not true since not everyone gets a disease that is caused by something the person is doing or has. Aging is just a factor, not a cause.

But I think you’ve hit on an even bigger topic of debate—one I just cringe over. There are a lot of people who do not believe in MLC because of the label midlife crisis. They look at the symptoms and wow, people that are not in midlife match those too—even for the timelines. They may accept the crisis portion of the label, but refuse to even have anything to do with it because of the inappropriate age term midlife. There was a thread over on the marriageadvocates forum about this and that was much of the basis for refusing to even include MLC as anything important for their posters. People can be in what we call MLC at 25, 30 70…

Well, at what age is it more common?
I think that makes a difference, there are always going to be statistical outlyers. But also maybe the label is inaccurate. My argument is not indefense of the label, then, but in defense of using the label.

I use it because it is already accepted and recognized. But because the label points us to an age range we have an bias linked as an affirmation—so we are constantly sending ourselves the message that this crisis is for those within a midlife age range. But is that true—maybe, maybe not. Back on that thread—almost a year ago—I said we could change the term to something like  (I can’t recall my suggestion, so I’m thinking of what it might have been) Existential Life Crisis, Life Identity Crisis… those aren’t catchy like midlife crisis—but maybe midlife crisis is only catchy because we are accustomed to it.
But I also find it is the term I must use because it is the term you will look for. I would have very few people here receiving help if I used a term nonhe of you would google when looking for help. Do you blow your nose with tissue or Kleenex? Technically I just use toilet paper! But Kleenex is the brand name, not the name of the item. Or what about owies? Do you put a Band Aid on your owie or a plastic strip? You might be using Curad brand, but you probably still call it a Band Aid.

The people I was talking to over at Marriage Advocates refuse to believe in the existence of midlife crisis because of the label, but if I’m recalling correctly, they did not seem to have a problem believing in the crisis as I described it symptomatically—not that they read my articles, but within the discussion of the thread.

Does it make people feel better to be able to somehow make this about our spouses childhood? Blame on the terrible parenting we all go. What? I just don't get it?

The information does not necessarily say bad childhood. It says unresolved issues from childhood/adolescence. The three emotional components that seem to typically be associated with this are love, self-esteem and coping skills

I have yet to see how this MLC is rooted in his childhood in any substantial way.

How about changing the language? Childhood seems to be a loaded term. MLC is rooted in unresolved developmental pieces. Age is not a root—it’s the present, so it’s a branch of the tree, not a root. The tree is made up of the roots, the trunk and the branches. MLC is a factor of all of those pieces of the tree, not just one. Suppose childhood was perfect and somethin g triggers a person into MLC. It doesn’t mean their childhood caused MLC, but it created who they are and thus can influence how they handle—coping skills—the crisis. A positive childhood can help a person metter navigate through a midlife transition even a transition that becomes a crisis.

You know, I am wondering if all this is about accountability?
I have just realised what Stayed is saying.
If you don't have any accountability you can play a game forever, stay in your tunnel or cave as everyone else has to worry about it.

Oh absolutely it is about accountability—and that is a good word.
I consider those reasons or excuses to be things I can use to help fuel my understanding in the situation for that individual. With that increase in understanding I may better be able to learn what responses will be beneficial for that individual—responses that would have different results with someone different.
I don’t offer 7 steps to success. That would be misleading and thus unethical. Maybe there are 7 steps, but they are 7 different steps for you than they were for me—and I seriously think it was a lot more than 7!

[stillhopeful]

My h goes to an anti aging doctor. Hmmmmm...I think someone is afraid of getting old...