Midlife Crisis: Support for Left Behind Spouses
Archives => Archived Topics => Topic started by: With Gods Help! on June 28, 2012, 01:38:29 PM
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The first one may help the newbies ...........and a good read for the rest of us she defo says it as it is lol xxxxxxxxxxxx
http://chumplady.com/2012/04/the-humiliating-dance-of-pick-me
/Dear Chump Lady, He’s worried about his girlfriend, WTF?
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WGH
Love it!! ;) ;D
Hope xx
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Love it..... Since he definitely affair downed I have no worries. I say she can have him right now with his drinking, his erratic behavior, his anger and his co-dependency.....while I work on my independence, losing weight, feeling good about myself, getting a new job and moving.....LOL.
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GREAT STUFF!! ;) ;)
Should show it to my BIL who thinks I am equally at fault with H for him leaving us and finding OW >:(
SP.
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GREAT STUFF!! ;) ;)
Should show it to my BIL who thinks I am equally at fault with H for him leaving us and finding OW >:(
SP.
LOL - yeah like you lead him around with his ---- whatever and helped him find his affair down... :) Here honey I know you will like this one she doesn't work, she drinks all the time, she is your cousin and just perfect for you, she will leave her kids for you, she will validate all your poor decisions and she will adore your drunkness... I am sure that is what I did.
Sorry that is the picture that comes to my mind when an idiot says I am at fault for the OW scenario.
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, she will validate all your poor decisions ......
Sorry that is the picture that comes to my mind when an idiot says I am at fault for the OW scenario.
Yes, I DIDN'T validate any of his poor decisions. That was my biggest 'MISTAKE' in the marriage. H: "You should be on my side as you're my WIFE"!!!!!
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Yes, I DIDN'T validate any of his poor decisions. That was my biggest 'MISTAKE' in the marriage. H: "You should be on my side as you're my WIFE"!!!!!
Yeah they fail to realize that as the Husband they should be protecting, loving and treating their wife with love and kindness too. They expect it from us 24/7 yet fail to grasp that maybe we are angry, tired and acting the way we are is because they demand so much that it sucks the lifeblood from us until they feel validated and justified for leaving us and yet they expect us to pick up all the pieces as they walk away and destroy the last bit of self respect we may have had. Not only do they do this but then they keep reinforcing how everything bad is all our fault. yeah sounds like we should be on their side. I am glad this site and the advice here is teaching us to work on ourselves. I guess you can see where my anger is.....lol :-[
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Oh, my goodness, what an awesome blog! Just shared it with my RL LBS "sisters."
THANKS!
I feel...taller. Or something.
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quote fr NR: I feel...taller. Or something.
;D ;D ;D
So, but does this apply to mlc affairs? and lbs's?
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So, but does this apply to mlc affairs? and lbs's?
It applies to mine right now. I believe the "Pick Me" dance applies to most of us after BD.
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But this Pick me, it raises the background question I always have going on, am I nuts for standing? I do think couples give up too easily & divorce but still, it is really, really hard to stand when the whole business devours your self-esteem.
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This really resonates with me and has nothing to do with whether or not W has an OM or not. As BJC said on his thread this mess takes all your positive energy and sucks it down a drain. It's hard to differentiate between whether our spouses are in MLC or just an "affair fog" and we are always posed with the question of whether we even want them back after it's all said and done, or if we are just holding on because of our own co-dependency issues. Perhaps "standing" is another term for "fixing" in that we hope to win in the end by either waiting it out and assuming they are going through a process that will end with them wanting to return, or to keep us from truly letting go even though in our hearts we know they are already gone.
Very thought provoking read.
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Hi, I just wanted to say thanks for the links and discussion of my blog, Chump Lady. It's neat to find you. Per the question, are you crazy to stand there and take it if a cheater wants you do to the "pick me" dance? IMO, yes, sorry. Yes you are. Marriage is not about humiliation and requiring competition to ensure "monogamy." The whole dynamic is abusive. The only response to discovery of an affair from a cheater should be, I'm sorry -- I'm ending this marriage. OR I'm sorry I'm ending this affair. The middle ground is cake. Manipulating your spouse into competing for you (doing the dance of "pick me!") is getting ego kibbles at the emotional expense of someone you've devastated. It's totally $h!tety.
I could go on... I do... on the blog. You matter. You're worth more than taking that crap.
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With Gods Help: thank you for sharing the link!!
Chump Lady, thank you for visiting us and your great blog. Were you puzzled by the sudden increase in traffic on your site ??
Wish you well,
Dragonfly
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I was Dragonfly! But I'm very thankful to you all. I just started it a couple months ago and very much appreciate the kind words and the new audience.
Finishing up a post now, it's a long interview I just did with George Simon (author of "In Sheep's Clothing" the tactics of manipulators) and he's got quite a bit to say about the "dance." And how in therapy, people who have character issues like cheating need to be confronted (versus the poor sausage treatment they often get in marriage counseling).
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Hi Chump so glad you called in ............i love ya blog.......looking forward to reading more.........ive always been a bit GOBBY (since his affair down) with my h..........and i think this is why i liked your blog xxxxxxxxxxxx
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WGH - what's GOBBY?
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Chump Lady,
Also checkout Lifetwo.com and specific thread of 'My wife is in MLC, pls help".
Enjoyed your blog/site.
Dr. NO
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Hi Calimity..............GOBBY means saying it as it is.................... ::) ::) ::) no more eggshell walking for me.........and to be honest there hasn't been for a long time..........its just not me........i do have more patience but i don't allow h to blame me for his issues anymore.........xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
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Great link, I think that we can all relate to this at sometime.
FH
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Hi Chump Lady
Wow - I love your blog.
Have just read your 'spectrum of cheaters'. Mid Life Crisis is mentioned in the visual, but not in the text.
Just wondering if you have experienced MLC in your partner? The affair is just one of the many weird changes that occur in your spouse. It's pretty surreal. So much for the red sports car and blonde bimbo. Most of us wish it was 'just' this.
There's scientific evidence that when a certain neurotransmitter (serotonin) gets especially low in the brain, people start thinking all sorts of strange things, leading to the out of character behaviours.
This is where we get confused. We know something very enormous is happening to our spouses.
It would be so much easier to deal with though, if cheating and lying wasn't part of the equation.
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Kikki, I have to think more about MLC. My uninformed quick take on it is, nah. People who have $h!tety characters are usually like that. Maybe they didn't cheat before, but I bet dollars to donuts they were entitled takers. Self important. Valued themselves above their spouse or kids. Probably has an expensive hobby or two (sailboats, motorcycles, QVC). I don't think people just wig out and become horrible partners. The MLC aliens invade. I think you have to start off kind of $h!tety to *indulge* in a MLC.
As for my ex-husband, he was a serial cheater. No MLC for him. (Although I met him when he was in his 40s.) Three marriages and three divorces that I know of. Double life.
I think it is very possible that people attribute MLC to people who have been cheating for a long time, but only discover the deception years into it -- in mid-life.
I tend to think you should get more maturity and character with age. Not less. JMHO.
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My very quick read leads me to think that what you're dealing with and what most of us are dealing with here are two very, very different things.
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Agree with Trusted, what you’re dealing with and what we here are dealing with are two very different things. A serial cheater is a serial cheater, a MLC affair/cheater another.
Anyway, we all have the capacity of cheat. Its part of being human. Given the right (wrong) conditions any have us could cheat. I’m not saying we will all cheat, just that we’re all capable of it. Many of us will never do it.
Plenty of cheaters do not have expensive hobbies, they are plain, ordinary working class people. Cheating does not come with expensive hobbies. And plenty of cheater were not takers, nor become after they cheated. For many cheating was a one off they regretted and that was it.
Does not sound fair to me to put everyone in the same boat as your husband. Not everyone is on their mid-40’s is a serial cheater and has 3 marriages and 3 divorces behind them.
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Hi Chump Lady
Thanks for your thoughts on this.
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You wrote:
Given the right (wrong) conditions any have us could cheat. I’m not saying we will all cheat, just that we’re all capable of it. Many of us will never do it.
I totally agree with this. Kikki asked about my ex-husband (I'm not married to him any longer, and am happily remarried now.) In my blog, I have a post on a spectrum of cheaters and say, I do think the *majority* of cheaters are one-offs, or an exit affair. Serial cheaters are a different breed of cat.
My examples of toys are examples of selfishness, short hand for issues of character.
I think all cheating is about character. Yes, we are all capable, but some cross those lines and others do not. I believe cheating if it is a MLC or serial cheating is about selfishness and lack of character. Not everyone chooses to indulge in a MLC. IMO having an affair is a choice. Not something that hits you midlife like perimenopause.
I do not think all cheaters are serial cheaters.
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People who have $hitty characters are usually like that. Maybe they didn't cheat before, but I bet dollars to donuts they were entitled takers. Self important. Valued themselves above their spouse or kids. Probably has an expensive hobby or two (sailboats, motorcycles, QVC). I don't think people just wig out and become horrible partners. The MLC aliens invade. I think you have to start off kind of $hitty to *indulge* in a MLC.
Zing!
How have I not put two and two together before now? There they were sitting right next to each other!
Yes, Chump Lady, my xH felt entitled to spend THOUSANDS of dollars a month on a vacation home that I hated, one I worked my a$$ off to maintain, all the while begrudging me things like a pair of shoes, a used book, a vacation every year.... He spent time on bikes but would not help with yard work (except at his beloved beach house.) And now he's all about the sailing and the woman, all the while crying poor to me about how much the kids are costing him. HIS! KIDS!
And he has the balls to call ME entitled.
He felt entitled to tell me all about the women he was infatuated with over the years as his head was entertaining fantasies about the level of his own importance--but I'm the entitled one if you ask him.
You see, now that the law is involved, he finally has to hand support money over to me without making me grovel for it. And it makes him feel better to call me the entitled one.
What an a$$ I was married to!
>:( >:( >:( >:( ;D >:( >:( :o >:(
That said, I do believe that serial cheaters are not able to be rehabbed. But I do believe that many of the men and women here were married to people who are suddenly acting out of character, perhaps due to chemical imbalances created by or resulting in depression. I do believe there are a few marriages that can be successfully restored, that some of the walk-away partners can eventually experience true remorse and make restitution. I do believe that.
But I also believe that too many of us give way too much real estate in our hearts and minds to our spouses--the ones who've treated us so poorly--when we should focus on a life without them, and live as if they aren't coming back, leave them to their own growth or deterioration and move on to focus on the life that deserves our attention.
Thanks for the insight, Chump Lady!
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Excellent posts from all you ladies!!
Chump Lady, I'm chiming in to add a little perspective to this discussion and from a different viewpoint than my W's. Since you are new here you probably haven't read through my threads so I'll give you a bit of an update on myself and some events from several years ago. W and I have been together since I was 18 and she was my first time. We married when I was 21, but several months into our marriage we were hit by several stressors at once and rather than focusing on those stressors I put the blame on my marriage and started focusing on the fact that I had married young and had not been with any other girls. Coincidentally, I was carpooling with my best friend's W and she had begun to flirt and talk about sexual subjects during our commute. I had a long talk with W and told her that I wanted to break up and "sow my wild oats" and she agreed that it may be for the best. I went through with it and slept with my best friend's W several times over the course of a week or two (she had told me they were separated and divorcing and I used that to justify what I was doing. It was all a lie, btw). W was deeply hurt, of course, but it wasn't until I woke up (literally) in the middle of the night in a hotel room that I realized that she and our baby daughter were the most important things in the world to me. I called her from the hotel room (not bright) and apologized profusely. I cut off contact with the OW the next day but W stayed at her parents' house for a few weeks after that. We got back together but it was probably several months to a year before she finally forgave me. For my part, I never justified my actions after that and talked to her about it whenever she brought it up. I did have to go through a penance but found forgiving myself was the hardest part. Since then I have not even been tempted to touch another woman and that was over 20 years ago. I went through grad school an hour away from home and could have had many opportunities to engage in extramarital relations had I been looking for them, but instead I went straight to class and came straight back home and usually talked to W during the drive back.
So, my point is that those who say "once a cheater always a cheater" are incorrect in many cases. 20 years after the biggest mistake of my life I am standing for my marriage and have now gone over a year without being with a woman (sadly). Truly, I have no desire to take this opportunity to sleep around or "see what's out there" and will be fine if W and I R and I end up spending the rest of my life with her. I'm not a fan of making the same mistake more than once.
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Hi TD,
I don't believe in once a cheater, always a cheater. And you're a text book case of a successful reconciliation, it sounds like. You were honest, remorseful, and did the hard work. I do think, however, that stand up guys like you who do the hard work (on yourself, on the marriage) to reconcile are the minority. That is JMHO. My blog is really addressing people who stay with "cake eaters" -- those cheaters who "can't decide," or say one thing and do another, who hold out hope for the betrayed spouse, but don't do the real work, and want to maintain a situation in which they can have both. It's also for people who are living with the mindfiretruck that a unremorseful cheater puts on a spouse that the cheating is somehow their fault.
You didn't do any of those things. But those tactics, blame shifting, gas lighting, cake eating... are sadly very common. And IMO, abusive.
Many things put stresses on a marriage. Again, I think reacting to those stresses with an affair is a choice. A destructive one. And how a person deals with that is a matter of character. It sounds like you had a one-off experience that you regret and fortunately for you, it did not end your marriage.
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This is an interesting discussion. It brings up something we don't talk much about here: character.
Chump Lady I took a look at your blog and my first reaction to it was what some others here have said, I don't think my husband is the kind of person you're talking about.
My H is having a MLC. My H is suffering from covert depression. My H has chosen to become involved with (take your pick) an affair down OW/a borderline personality disorder OW/ an OW who is in MLC herself/ an uber needy OW who is propping up his ego/ etc., etc. My H is struggling unconsciously (isn't that convenient!) with unresolved FOO/trauma/childhood/adolescent (fill in the blank) issues. A phrase we use a lot here is our spouse has been "abducted by aliens"! Hey, I say and believe it!
It all works for me. But I do struggle at times with asking myself, "Is this MLC construct simply an easier, softer way for me to process what's happened to me? A way to slowly absorb the ghastly realities of my new life?" The biggest ghastly reality being that my H is, as another LBS here has said, "a liar, a coward and a cheat"?
If I can obsess over the idea that my H has been "struck" with this disorder then I don't have to really "let in" the stark horror of the fact that my H is in a 3.5 year affair with a woman who was married when their affair began and has since divorced her H to live with mine, making my H an instrument in the destruction of two families; that my H has altered forever his D's trust in men; and that my H shows no remorse for what he's done and tells my D and me he did the right thing and that our feelings about the loss of our family are "collateral damage."
If I can believe my H is in a MLC then I can soften somewhat the pain of his abandonment of our 38 year marriage and his seeming overnight personality change.
Seriously, who can process that? I've had 18 months since BD and I still can't bear to unflinchingly look at the situation. I can only handle small bites of the horror at a time. I think that's one of the reasons "MLC takes time" is a favorite maxim here!
So, perhaps, believing in MLC "prettys up" the mess, makes it easier to take, gives us a structure to work with, and, perhaps biggest of all, gives us a ray of hope.
I don't know. I truly don't know.
For now, I'm staying with MLC. But I can't say I'm 100% certain my H isn't simply and primarily a selfish creep.
TMHP
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Many things put stresses on a marriage. Again, I think reacting to those stresses with an affair is a choice. A destructive one. And how a person deals with that is a matter of character.
Bit of a tangent - this helped me ... and got me journalling.
As someone who still stubbornly questions his role in his marriage breakdown, mostly I think because my wife was pretty brutal in what she said to me, I really value what you've written and how concisely you wrote it. It makes sense to me. It is something that I want to repeat telling myself as I keep moving forward with my life.
It's what my therapist should have said to me.
I would say though, on reflection and based on the sequence of events, and other things my wife said, it is clear that her leaving and choices were very influenced by episodes in her past - before she met me. Things that were suppressed and not dealt with. I can see that too. There was an element of mystery - at points even to her.
I'm sure there is a mix of both things - a push and a pull. But bottom line, the relationship with the other person is more valuable to them when they leave than the relationship with their spouse. They seem to do whatever it takes to have that relationship. Of course they deny that being the motivation for leaving, but go ahead with it anyway. They rationalize it all by attacking the character of their spouse - the mind**** as you put it.
I was in a position, one time, where a woman I worked with and admired tried to initiate a relationship with me earlier in our marriage. I remember feeling shocked, but somehow flattered. I walked away, came home and hugged my family. I think that's part of why I find it so hard to understand. Even now, three years after 'bomb drop', and a year of separation I don't feel able to be in a relationship with another person. I suppose at some level that's a choice too.
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Chump Lady, Not so sure if a one-off cheating or affair is about the overall character of a person. It may just be a circumstance that is never repeated again and the person may have learned the lesson.
Imagine one of us, LBS is too down, gets too drunk and there is a convenient person around, and that person is married. The cheating happens. Does that define the entirety of who the LBS is and the LBS character or is it just circumstantial? I’m not saying it is right, just that we are human and sometimes things happen that are totally our of character.
I’m not so certain people choose to indulge in MLC. MLC is depression and issues with the neurotransmitters/chemical imbalance. Drugs, alcohol, depression all those things can completely change a person basic character. Still I think it would had been much better if the MLCer would have asked for help rather than become in-fatuated with someone else.
Of course many people have affairs simply because of character flaws and because they choose to. Or they did not choose to but also did not stop them from happening. But the thing with most MLCers is that they have never cheated or had have an affair until midlife. Some of us meet our spouses on our late teens and spend several decades with them. It is a little strange that they only get to the affair at midlife.
Thundarr, once a cheater always a cheater in the sense that since it had happened the person was a cheater. But in your case I don’t even think you were a cheater. You discussed the subject with your wife she agreed it may had been for the best. You did not go behind her back. I think what happened to you, getting together very young, putting the blame on the marriage, happens to a lot of people.
Trusting, was your husband always a “a liar, a coward and a cheat"? Or has he become one in midlife? MLC is far more than the affair. It brings with it a lot of other changes that are not present in regular affairs. Change in musical tastes, dressing young, getting along with types of people one would never get near before and plenty of other stuff. Was your husband “ simply and primarily a selfish creep” before or was he caring and committed to the marriage and you?
Chump Lady as for Dan Savage Monagamish he is not advocate people going behind anyone’s backs. He is talking about situation like Thundarr one or similar ones. It is not the same an open marriage/relationship. Check Dan’s definition of the term. I think you will understand what he is talking about.
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I just read this thread and have a comment or two. The blog is not really my style. I understand it's a blog about affairs. The affair is a symptom of MLC and I feel that many LBS put too much emphasis on the affair, which may hinder detachment. I understand it is often the most humiliating part of MLC. People have affairs all the time which are not MLC. MLC has several symptoms.
I think the best line of the entire blog may be the end where letting go is referenced.
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DGU, don’t think the blog is about MLC, just about affairs. As for the MLC affair, well, it is the affair who brings in the whole devastation for the LBS. Emotional, financial, psychological. If the MLCer were to leave it would be bad but they leave, there is someone else, they refuse us money yet they spend it with the other person.
And, of course, they are parading OW/OM around town, living with them while still married at us. Let alone that, if we ever let them back we will have to forever live with the OW/OM ghost and the years they spend with OW/OM. That makes the affair if not the most humiliating, one of the most humiliating things of MLC. Pragmatically the affair is hardly a foot note for a LBS.
No matter how much knowledge of the crisis we have the affair (or affairs) and what comes with them will ever be a foot note. To us it is the relevant thing. All else is MLCers internal issues and those belong to the MLCer.
I think we tend to downplay the part the affair plays and the devastation that comes with it. Yes, it is just a symptom but I think we would all be more or less fine is all the MLCer was just having to deal with their internal issues without someone else on the picture and the stuff that it brings.
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DGU, don’t think the blog is about MLC, just about affairs.
Yes, that's what I wrote in my post. "I understand it's a blog about affairs"
As for the MLC affair, well, it is the affair who brings in the whole devastation for the LBS.
Yes, I also wrote that it is often the most humiliating part of MLC. "I understand it is often the most humiliating part of MLC."
Let alone that, if we ever let them back we will have to forever live with the OW/OM ghost and the years they spend with OW/OM. That makes the affair if not the most humiliating, one of the most humiliating things of MLC. Pragmatically the affair is hardly a foot note for a LBS.
I never referenced it as a foot note. It is likely I will have to deal with it as well at some point, though I have no clue to what extent right now.
I think we tend to downplay the part the affair plays and the devastation that comes with it. Yes, it is just a symptom but I think we would all be more or less fine is all the MLCer was just having to deal with their internal issues without someone else on the picture and the stuff that it brings.
RCR has a whole series of articles titled "Understanding Infidelity"
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I agree DGU. Thank you for your posting--I couldn't get my thoughts into words. I was uncomfortable with the blog & the response on here as it seemed everyone was agreeing with Chump Lady's opinion. I don't think anything about affairs [never mind mlc affairs] is as simple & straightforward as it seemed on this blog.
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I'm not agreeing with Chump Lady's opinion. If anything I'm questioning it. Affairs are not black & white let alone MLC ones.
DGU I know you've never referred to the affair as a foot note. I said that because we hear a lot: in the future the affair would have menst nothing. Yes, maybe... in the future... until then it is an elefant in the room. And I think even in the future it will be a very uncomfortable issue.
I've read those RCR articles. I still think, overall, the affair is played down around here. We're told not to worry, it is just a side effect, the person was convenient, OW/OM meant nothing. True, it is a sympton, the other person was willing but OW/OM meant something, at least during their existence. Even if only a shoulder to cry upon they meant something.
Focussing on why her/him is kind of useless. If not X it would had been Y, because it is not about the affair partner themselves, but the consequences of an affair, any affair, are huge and the ones of a MLC one gigantic.
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I've read those RCR articles. I still think, overall, the affair is played down around here. We're told not to worry, it is just a side effect, the person was convenient, OW/OM meant nothing. True, it is a sympton, the other person was willing but OW/OM meant something, at least during their existence. Even if only a shoulder to cry upon they meant something.
Focussing on why her/him is kind of useless. If not X it would had been Y, because it is not about the affair partner themselves, but the consequences of an affair, any affair, are huge and the ones of a MLC one gigantic.
I think for me the affair is just hurtful especially as it continues each day he shows no regard for our home. H doesn't want D is very plain about that, he claims to be saving money, he claims he loves and misses me and he plans on coming back yet he is staying with a woman who has all the attributes of a prostitute ell worse because at least the prostitute gets money for what she does and values her worth a little. I will never be a fun loving party girl who does women, several men and is very cruel about ruining people's lives and laughing about it, yes they actually laugh at me openly and ridicule me as I have been told.
Sorry it is hurtful that I was replaced with that and while it is his choice, it is even more hurtful that because of it I reacted very angrily and lashed out for two weeks in a manner that I find it hard to live with because it goes against everything I am, and I did betray my husband by publicly humiliating him in a manner that I have never done before, nor would I ever do again but the damage is there because of his choice to have an affair and my blind fury and choice to act in a very cruel manner. I hate that part of myself and will forever wonder if he never contacts me if my actions to his behavior was the true cause and not just MLC.
It isn't even about sex as we were intimate and were very loving that way but our marriage was suffering due to his issues and yes due to my anger with my life at the time and neither of us were meeting each others emotional needs. I hated the home I was living in, the isolation and the negativity that surrounded me and I have had to admit that I turned away into myself and stopped being fun due to the situation we were in. Too bad it took him leaving me to get a backbone, find my own happiness, break my heart to have a heart again, find my faith and love of life again only to realize that I can do nothing but trust in God that one day my H will return.
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Affairs are not black & white let alone MLC ones.
Affairs are wrong. I think that is pretty black and white. I can't think of any occasion when deceiving your spouse to screw around is an okay thing.
Whether or not a person reconciles is, yes, not black and white. Everyone has their reasons and cheaters show varying degrees of remorse and willingness to work on the marriage.
I have the utmost respect for people who have cheated who own their issues, do the hard, hard work to win back trust, humble themselves, and do therapy and fight for their marriage. IMO these people are a minority.
Many stay mired in entitlement thinking and manipulation (trying to pin fault on the betrayed party through blame shifting and gas lighting) and eat cake (try and have both), which you can attribute to neurotransmitters, but I would say is a choice.
Few things are as depressing as being cheated on. The devastation alters your well-being and presumably your neurotransmitters. So do betrayed people get an excuse for revenge affairs?
If not... is it because they show greater character? Restraint?
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I agree that affairs are wrong.....and that is black and white.
My main point of posting is the affair is not the only symptom of MLC. MLC is about deep issues. I believe affairs are more common by themselves than is MLC.
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I did betray my husband by publicly humiliating him in a manner that I have never done before, nor would I ever do again but the damage is there because of his choice to have an affair and my blind fury and choice to act in a very cruel manner. I hate that part of myself and will forever wonder if he never contacts me if my actions to his behavior was the true cause and not just MLC.
JoJo, I don't think it really matters IMO how we respond to the revelation of our spouse's affair. Some people will disagree with me. You obviously have great remorse for your reaction and anger and concern that it may have driven your H completely away permanently. I am on the other side of the pendulum and told NO ONE. He has not suffered publicly or has been humiliated by my anger or devastation. It is only these past 2-3 weeks that I have summoned the courage within me to find support from some of my closest friends and having to share this horrendous news with them brings great shame upon me and sadness.
I have to agree with Chump Lady in that affairs are always wrong and I believe character is the root core to the way our spouse handles himself/herself with the decision to pursue the OP and treat their spouse. I believe I acted with great restraint and respect and yet my H did not respond in kind. It only empowered him to treat me more viciously and with contempt. Despite his behavior I still have not publicly humiliated him. This does not mean I am in a better place than you. It just means that my H does not respect how I have treated him and his paramour. He lacks substance and character and I believe he is so proud and arrogant that he will be hard pressed to find the humility to ever come to me and apologize or seek forgiveness, no matter how miserable his life turns out or how much he would want to return to me.
Your H may hold a grudge for a long time, never forgive you or if you believe in the power of God, he may find it in his heart to forgive you if and when he has that AHA moment.
I wouldn't be concerned about your behavior. If you know you did wrong, take it up with God, seek his forgiveness, make reparations with Him. Do what is right in your life to walk in the right path. God makes crooked paths straight. Maybe he will make it straight to your H? No need to carry anymore guilt than necessary.
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Thanks SavingGrace - It is the major issue I am working on with me at the moment. For the most part I understand that I have to forgive myself and I have to an extent, still appalled at my over the top reaction......lol. I do not normally like such attention but I think after the last year with not being able to do anything correct I snapped in a big way.
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Chump Lady, I’ve said it before, affairs are wrong. And, yes, that is black & white.
But nothing else in an affair is black & white. And a MLC affair has nothing do to with a regular affair and is far less black & white.
Most non MLC cheaters I know tried to fix things and did not blame their partner.
Like DGU said, the affair is only one symptom of MLC, not the only one. Would agree with him and say yes, affairs are more common by themselves than MLC. But even the non MLC affairs are, plenty of times, a symptom of something else.
Yes, the devastation brought in by an affair will affect neurotransmitters (like any other severe emotional shock would), alter our brain chemicals and have them imbalanced. Again, in a MLC affair the imbalance will be far greater than in a normal affair because there are many other things attached to it that provoke damages.
It would be understandable that the betrayed person has an affair. I’m not saying it would be right but it would be understandable. And plenty of people have revenge affairs.
Still, in my perspective, in MLC, if the LBS is seeing someone, that does not mean the LBS is having and affair. There is no marriage, the spouse is gone, the LBS is simply moving on with its life. Different from having a straying spouse that has regretted and go and have an affair just for revenge revenge.
Jojo, the affair is terribly hurtful and damaging for all parts involved. Even if one, or several of the parts are not aware of it.
You don’t have to be anything you are not. If your husband and his OW laugh at you and ridicule you they are just being mean.
Don’t be so hard on yourself. In the beginning of this MLC mess e all have done things that were out of character for us. Would say that, in the end, it does not matter that much how we have initially reacted to the affair and MLC. You just ned to forgive yourself, be kind to yourself, take a day at a time.
Living with a person in pre-MLC, and pre-MLC can last a very long time, is very hard. My husband had been in pre-MLC for ages and it was driving me mad, he was causing a lot of tension, he was gloomy, with outbursts of happiness, and was behaving in a very weird manner for months before he left.
When we stay on our own, after they have left, in a way it is a relief. We have space and time for ourselves; we no longer have a depressed unpleasant person around. Enjoy the time on your own the best you can, and I cannot stress it enough, be kind to yourself.
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While I was typing, Anne responded & left me nothing to say! I am glad we are having this discussion tho--some of these questions have been running around my brain for a while.
FindingJoJo--I will never ever admit to some things I did in the aftermath of BD--lunacy would describe it.
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I would like to agree with everyone that all affairs are, by definition, wrong. I don't think anyone would belabor an opposing opinion to that and I don't think anyone here has.
I would also like to say that I think all affairs are also symptoms of something else underlying. Even if it is not MLC, if one partner strays in the marriage then the marriage was not completely healthy. People in completely healthy relationships do not stray unless a) there was an underlying problem that was not address, b) the straying partner has an innate character flaw that predisposes them to cheat (which would mean they were never truly able to commit completely) or c) something affects the judgment of one of the partners that is independent of the marital relationship (biochemical changes, mental health issues, Alzheimer's etc). Again, the fault is NEVER on the betrayed spouse as even revenge affairs are by definition wrong.
Affairs are one of, if not the most devastating things a person can go through relationship-wise. The sense of betrayal and insecurity brought upon by the one who you bared your soul to and trusted with your very life is nigh incomprehensible. At some point we have to believe there is no chance whatsoever that our spouse will cheat and betray us. If we are unable to do that, I see no way that we can be our true selves with them. I have not had to deal with an affair, or at least more than an EA as far as I know, but may have to down the line. If it comes to that I do not know if I would be capable of keeping the love for my spouse alive and I may lose all interest in ever R with her. I don't want that and never will, but it is a bridge I will have to cross if it comes to that. In the nearly 22 years that W and I have been together I have never had to worry about her cheating and I know her top priority has always been the kids. To even suspect that she has or will engage in this contradicts everything I have known about her over the years, and I doubt she could have kept that hidden from me all this time if that was part of her character. In the end, it may not even matter as she may never turn back toward me or show any interest in saving or reviving our marriage.
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Hi Thundarr,
I would have bet my life my h would never have an affair.
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Jojo, the affair is terribly hurtful and damaging for all parts involved. Even if one, or several of the parts are not aware of it.
You don’t have to be anything you are not. If your husband and his OW laugh at you and ridicule you they are just being mean.
Don’t be so hard on yourself. In the beginning of this MLC mess e all have done things that were out of character for us. Would say that, in the end, it does not matter that much how we have initially reacted to the affair and MLC. You just ned to forgive yourself, be kind to yourself, take a day at a time.
Living with a person in pre-MLC, and pre-MLC can last a very long time, is very hard. My husband had been in pre-MLC for ages and it was driving me mad, he was causing a lot of tension, he was gloomy, with outbursts of happiness, and was behaving in a very weird manner for months before he left.
When we stay on our own, after they have left, in a way it is a relief. We have space and time for ourselves; we no longer have a depressed unpleasant person around. Enjoy the time on your own the best you can, and I cannot stress it enough, be kind to yourself.
Thanks AnneJ - I am not worry about the OW ridicule and in a sick way find it amusing myself. My H wasn't engaging in it according to BIL - he was playing on his touchpad ignoring them. I find it amusing because when he did that he was under stress at home and would use that as a means to block it out, so she doesn't know him very well at all. I don't care if they laugh at my belief in God or praying or whatever because they are just talking about things that are spreading God's information out there. My H knows I believe in God and always respected that so it will just sink into his ears more and the more he hears God and praying the better for me.....lol.
I enjoy the space and freedom of not having to be stressed out at home because of his mood swings without a doubt and it is liberating. I have a stress at home with BIL here but that is soon ending as well. I get wallowing when I have to pack, which I am doing now or I clean heavily which I use to do everyday when H was here due to his tendency to make a mess like a teenager this last year and a clean house is calming. So today was both of those normal duty days and my house will be clean while I am packing.
I for the most part am calm and at peace, glowing is the term often used by friends and neighbors, when we talk about the affair things it brings out how badly I reacted to it is all. it is definitely not something I dwell on daily, I have asked for forgiveness from God, H and myself for my actions only and will work through it. I know in my head that I did not cause H's crisis, affair or anything else, I reacted poorly for the first time in 15 years but WOW it was a stunner.....lol. I didn't know I could be so out there like that, I guess the dam burst from the strain of the year before with his changing moods and ultimately I can't force him to forgive me at all, but then again there isn't just one party who caused the ultimate final break now is there - he finally admitted that to me.
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Chump Lady,
Thanks for commenting. I think you have made excellent points and even more, I appreciate that you are adding to this discussion with such Grace! To be honest, I was concerned you might be one of those who came in an attacking manner, but you have not done that. I’m sorry it surprised me.
Per the question, are you crazy to stand there and take it if a cheater wants you do to the "pick me" dance? IMO, yes, sorry. Yes you are.
Sure, some people thought me crazy for making the choice to Stand for me marriage. But that’s really unfair as well—and the crazy label is a sensitive one for me. My sanity is not dependent on my doing what other people think I should do or what they think they would do in my situation. The crazy label is a sensitive one for me because I knew crazy personally. I watched crazy as he spiraled into legal insanity when I was a child. I answered the collect calls from Jesus. It’s a real disease and people toss the label around as a light insult to upset people into following their opinion of appropriate behaviors. Crazy died when I was 19 from Cancer and being crazy did not stop him from being my hero.
I read your post and it was accurate and well-written. I agree that a betrayed spouse should not agree to compete with an alienator.
But that is not what Standing is about. Standers may do it; we all make mistakes. Standing is about a few things—and standing there and taking it is not one of those things. For some it really is about the Big Goal of reconciliation and that Big Goal can get in the way if the Stander focuses on it rather than on the personal goals along their own journey. In the beginning that pick me dance is a common phase many betrayeds go through to get to the other side of it and learn they don’t have to lower themselves like that; they don’t have to prove themselves. For some, Standing is simply a Grace Period where they focus on their own healing and put any decisions regarding their marriage on hold.
There is not a right or wrong, crazy or sane in whether an individual chooses to Stand or Leave. Left Behind Spouses hear they are crazy from friends, family, co-workers and strangers who don’t know their situation, but only the generalities: a cheating spouse who has left and possibly filed for divorce.
The only response to discovery of an affair from a cheater should be, I'm sorry -- I'm ending this marriage. OR I'm sorry I'm ending this affair. The middle ground is cake.
Thank you for that. You included remaining married as an option. Not everyone does that. I also agree that the middle ground is cake, but around here that’s what we are dealing with. My husband did choose the option to get a divorce, but I got a say too and I said No. I was not going to be forced into something I didn’t want because he chose stupid. And technically he chose to be persuaded by the alienator to file for divorce. He would not have done it on his own, but being persuadable certainly does not absolve him; he did it; it was his choice to take that action and clearly it says a lot about him being weak since he allowed someone else to manipulate him like that.
Kikki, I have to think more about MLC. My uninformed quick take on it is, nah. People who have $hitty characters are usually like that. Maybe they didn't cheat before, but I bet dollars to donuts they were entitled takers. Self-important. Valued themselves above their spouse or kids. Probably has an expensive hobby or two (sailboats, motorcycles, QVC).
My examples of toys are examples of selfishness, short hand for issues of character.
I think all cheating is about character. Yes, we are all capable, but some cross those lines and others do not.
You refer to cheating as an issue of character. Well, that’s where we will disagree—hopefully agree to disagree. I think that it certainly is that for some cheaters—especially serial cheaters—philanderers. But cheating is also a behavior and behavior is not character. We are all sinners, none perfect, but our bad behavior does not make us bad people. And yeah, cheating is really bad behavior.
As for toys. 2 jetskis and a motorcycle—and another motorcycle added later which is for sale. That doesn’t point to Sweetheart being selfish either. I like them too. I may be the passenger on the motorcycles, but those toys are for us, not him alone. Life will certainly change when we have kids, but without kids we’ve had the freedom to indulge in play. It seems unfair to give a default label of poor character to someone because they have toys.
Thinking on it further it may not even be disagreement, but how we each define character. To me it goes to the core person, those things within that are unchanging—though they may be hidden. I separate bad behavior from a bad person. I don’t want to be with a bad person because that’s who and what they are. But bad behavior is something for which we all hold guilt. I also find that labeling a person as bad in character does not facilitate conditions of healing or improvement for them—it makes the bad seem permanent and so what’s the point. I do much better when other believe in me because their belief helps me to believe in my Self.
My blog is really addressing people who stay with "cake eaters" -- those cheaters who "can't decide," or say one thing and do another, who hold out hope for the betrayed spouse, but don't do the real work, and want to maintain a situation in which they can have both. It's also for people who are living with the mindf*ck that a unremorseful cheater puts on a spouse that the cheating is somehow their fault.
You didn't do any of those things. But those tactics, blame shifting, gas lighting, cake eating... are sadly very common. And IMO, abusive.
This website is for that same audience—for those who choose to Stand for their marriage through their spouse’s midlife crisis. And infidelity is most often a part of that—ongoing through the crisis.
But unlike your blog which you say is not a site for saving marriages, that is what we are about here. Not everyone has the reconciliation goal, but it is what brings people here. They want that and this is a safe place where they will find understanding and support rather than your crazy accusations.
Some of it is about that Grace Period where they need to heal before they are strong enough to make a life-altering decision. And then many choose to continue Standing because they have faith in the core person they married—faith that person will come through this crisis and then (not now) be remorseful and work with them to repair their marriage. It’s a huge leap of faith and it’s a risk. Standing does not involve putting one’s life on hold, but it does involve being married even when your partner is choosing to act against your vows.
Many here are pointing out that you do not seem to be talking about people like our spouses. As TrustingMyHP emphasized her husband is in an MLC, dealing with a BPD alienator, depressed… all of our common reasons or, as some may consider them, excuses for Standing.
But you are talking about men (and women) like our MLCers. You are talking about cake-eaters and let me tell you, we are champion cake bakers around here—and that is not a good thing. But we are also Standers, we want our marriages—not the present sham, but real marriages and that means accepting the process of what it takes to get from here to there. In the beginning I do believe that offering a tidbit of cake—diet cake—can help. It helps teach the LBS how to interact and respond rather than react which Paves the Way. It helps the MLCer to look toward the spouse with interest. But I will admit it takes a lot of balance to give just enough and then give no more than that and stop giving even the diet cake. In addition, I will admit that I was terrible at that. It’s easy to preach, but can’t say I ever did well in practice.
But I do struggle at times with asking myself, "Is this MLC construct simply an easier, softer way for me to process what's happened to me? A way to slowly absorb the ghastly realities of my new life?" The biggest ghastly reality being that my MLCer is, as another LBS here has said, "a liar, a coward and a cheat?"
If I can obsess over the idea that my H has been "struck" with this disorder then I don't have to really "let in" the stark horror…
If I can believe my husband is in an MLC then I can soften somewhat the pain of his abandonment of our 38 year marriage and his seeming overnight personality change.
Seriously, who can process that? I've had 18 months since Bomb Drop and I still can't bear to unflinchingly look at the situation. I can only handle small bites of the horror at a time. I think that's one of the reasons "MLC takes time" is a favorite maxim here!
So, perhaps, believing in MLC "prettys up" the mess, makes it easier to take, gives us a structure to work with, and, perhaps biggest of all, gives us a ray of hope.
The Dis-ease theory of MLC helps with empathy and understanding the motives and actions of the betrayer, understanding can help with accepting and depersonalizing the ongoing betrayal. And yeah, it pretties it up. Like Standing, the dis-ease theory can set aside some pieces of the pain in order to deal with others—otherwise many LBSs feel overwhelmed with so much coming at them at once. I’m not saying MLC is simply a coping device we apply as a label for ourselves; I’m saying it can also act as that and not everyone here has a spouse in MLC—even though they think it’s MLC. Or in some cases MLC is just an expansion of serious psychological issues (NPD) or character flaws that the person may have masked or the LBS simply denied previously.
MLC takes TIME goes with Recovery takes TIME.
I think you have to start off kind of $hitty to *indulge* in a MLC.
I’m not so certain people choose to indulge in MLC.
No, since when does a person indulge in depression? They may be wallowing, but indulgence makes it sound as though they are enjoying it. Infidelity is often included in lists of depressive symptoms. I call it depressions dirty secret because though it’s included in the list, the authors who created the list fail to discuss it later when they discuss the other symptoms point-by-point. I remember reading several books on depression and seeing infidelity in the list, but reading nothing about it afterwards in the books. It was quite enlightening to read as a symptom, and then a bit frustrating and even infuriating that the authors spoke of the other symptoms in detail and ignored infidelity.
Pragmatically the affair is hardly a foot note for a LBS.
No matter how much knowledge of the crisis we have the affair (or affairs) and what comes with them will ever be a foot note. To us it is the relevant thing. All else is MLCers internal issues and those belong to the MLCer.
I think we tend to downplay the part the affair plays and the devastation that comes with it. Yes, it is just a symptom but I think we would all be more or less fine if all the MLCer was just having to deal with their internal issues without someone else on the picture and the stuff that it brings.
I still think, overall, the affair is played down around here. We're told not to worry, it is just a side effect, the person was convenient, OW/OM meant nothing. True, it is a symptom, the other person was willing but OW/OM meant something, at least during their existence. Even if only a shoulder to cry upon they meant something.
Focusing on why her/him is kind of useless. If not X it would had been Y, because it is not about the affair partner themselves, but the consequences of an affair, any affair, are huge and the ones of a MLC one gigantic.
And that is why I try to downplay the affair. My intention is not to dismiss or deny or ignore the pain and humiliation, but to redirect focus toward Mirror-Work and away from something beyond our control. No matter what, infidelity is pretty much what people focus on when they talk to me about my work. But my research is on infidelity in the context of MLC. MLC is, for my studies and focus, the bigger context. My book is about dealing with MLC and infidelity is a part of that—a major part, but still there are other parts as well.
I have the utmost respect for people who have cheated who own their issues, do the hard, hard work to win back trust, humble themselves, and do therapy and fight for their marriage. IMO these people are a minority.
Many stay mired in entitlement thinking and manipulation (trying to pin fault on the betrayed party through blame shifting and gas lighting) and eat cake (try and have both), which you can attribute to neurotransmitters, but I would say is a choice.
There are different sorts of affairs—as you know. Most MLC affairs are of the emotionally-bonded type—they think they are soul mates. And then there’s the MLC which is a whole cesspool of yuck in itself—even without an affair.
There are those situations (non-MLC) where discovery is the start of recovery. The betrayer is either caught, exposed or admits and stops the affair, agrees to counseling, feels remorseful and actively sets out to repair the damage.
For Standers here dealing with MLC there is a gap between discovery and recovery. Sweetheart self-disclosed the affair before it became sexual—that’s rare. But partnered recovery was 3.5 years in the future. He made some genuine efforts at which he failed before that and some false efforts when he was pretending while continuing the affair. But when he committed to recovery for good, he stuck to it and did the work and continues to do the work.
But Chump Lady, he might not have met your criteria if you only accept those things immediately upon discovery of infidelity—or soon after. He was mired in entitlement and manipulation for a long time and even more mired in it as the receiver with the alienator as dishing it out. She faked a pregnancy first, a few months later she threatened indirect suicide unless he came back to her—she said she had a problem with her brain that she wouldn’t fix. And last week Sweetheart told me that a few months after that she tried wanted him to sign documentation saying he would not leave her because she was having a hysterectomy and I guess that was a sacrifice or something. I knew about the hysterectomy, he was supposed to leave to come home the day before and backed out. I understood his feelings of guilt at the time, but did not know the extent until only last week.
Though I will admit I got very little blame. He blamed a bit in the first weeks after Bomb Drop, but only a little even then and for most of his MLC he did not blame me—though he transferred his projections to others like his brother’s wife—she got mad and told him off and Sweetheart confided in me that he thought she was bipolar because she turned angry so quickly. She and I had a good laugh at that!
I don’t know about minority or majority. Many MLCers may not get the opportunity to be in the majority when they are ready because they don’t have Standing spouses. They may feel remorseful and even seek therapy, but there is no partnered repair. Some may have felt remorseful if the conditions had been different, but their betrayed spouse took the scorned route and may have done as much damage—without themselves committing the sin of adultery. We cannot say what would have happened in a situation that had no opportunity. We can certainly extrapolate from Standing situations and make guesses, but that’s just creating data and people are not data.
I am not in a rebuilt marriage because of odds or luck.
I would like to agree with everyone that all affairs are, by definition, wrong. I don't think anyone would belabor an opposing opinion to that and I don't think anyone here has.
Challenge accepted!
Are all cases of adultery affairs?
Terri Schiavo’s husband technically committed adultery by having a girlfriend—and children with her—while she was still alive in a supposedly brain-dead coma.
The Catholic church may consider what he was doing was wrong, but I don’t.
Going through my old journals from the first two years after Bomb Drop has been pretty freaky for me. I’m only reading the My Story journals which I think are different—and I felt so at the time as well—from my posts to other people where I was offering advice and support.
I remember feeling calm and feeling certain and that comes through in my words—the literal words. But the actions of what was going on with Sweetheart and his MLC were anything but calm. I failed over and over at No Contact and boundaries and had no idea I was failing.
If you want defensiveness…OH MY GOODNESS was I defensive when anyone suggested something about Sweetheart—like he was cake-eating or I was not setting boundaries. I mean fly-off the handle raging banshee in defense of me and of my Sweetheart. You guys are polite here, but I was not. And yet when I read those I can put myself back into myself at that time and still feel those defenses and irritations. I did not focus a lot on the alienator, but I was certainly focused on MLC. If that board were like this one, I would have certainly had my own topic on a the moderator board where they discussed concerns about me! And some moderator would have PM’d me to tell me I was being rude—and I would have probably told them off too. People were worried that I was too focused on MLC—and I continue to defend that now because I knew pretty soon after Bomb Drop that this was a calling for me. I knew I wanted to study it in greater depth. I find it interesting. But I was still a raging banshee at anyone who chose to disagree with me—and there were a few who did it in a manner that was just as rude.
I did not get to reconciliation because I did everything right. The things I think I did well: I believed we would make it—on that I did not waiver. I believe in Sweetheart—the core person. And perhaps most importantly: I had a positive attitude; though I must admit that I am naturally perky and depression is rare for me. I’ve been Liminal, but true Clinical Depression where I can’t pull myself out is probably something I have never experienced—I sometimes joke that I’m unipolar.
I had a Clinging Boomerang and chose to post the soap opera because I wanted to show the drama. My believe in a future reconciliation was absolute and I wanted to show what it was possible to get through to get to reconciliation. Mamma Bear and LettingGo also have Clinging Boomerangs and have done the same thing. I think it is important to show that drama…until it affects us, the LBS negatively or if parts of what we are showing are affecting other LBSs negatively. When focusing on the drama was beneficial to showing others and yet detrimental to me, it stopped being worth it. I finally stopped talking about my situation for a variety of reasons. But I was still far from doing things well.
I dealt with the cake-eating and I put up with it. Who knows, maybe Sweetheart would have come home for good a year earlier had I maintained the boundaries I kept trying to set.
[Shrug] But things happen when they happen for good reason too. I was working and needed the money so much that I could not leave my job. When Sweetheart left the alienator that last time, I’d just lost my job and suddenly had greater freedom to walk away from my house and help care for Gram. It was not only my ability to set boundaries, but the other conditions in my life met up to give me greater ability with those boundaries. When I kicked him out at the start of 2008 I was finally prepared on the boundaries and it was some of the most frustrating times because I couldn’t walk away from my job which meant I had to be in the house and we couldn’t afford a separate place for Sweetheart as a transition between the alienator and home. I was freaking out torn over what to do—I was trying to figure out how we could pay for a year’s apartment rent on credit cards—and for my marriage, I would have done that.
But maybe God just waited until I was ready with boundaries and Sweetheart was ready to work with me to rebuild and then He gave us the right conditions.
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RCR,
Thank you for writing this. You've put forth the stander's case with clarity and conciseness. I feel inspired! And reminded of why I keep coming back here, even at times when I think it would be better for me if I "moved on."
I wish I had the confidence in the outcome of my sitch that you had with yours. Unlike you, I'm a pessimist. Frankly, I'm surprised I made the decision to stand and to stick with it as long as I have as I'm a "worst case scenario" sort of gal.
And, not having a clinging boomeranger or boomeranger makes standing more difficult, in my view. My H's most definitely an "off and on." As you may remember, my H is very, very bonded and beholden--both financially and emotionally--to the OW. It will be harder for him than for most to disengage from her if that time ever comes--and I know it's hard for all MLCers to leave the OW.
But, for now, against what seem to be very strong odds, I continue to chose to stand. I tell myself I will stand until if and when I'm divorced and then make the decision at that time whether or not I wait around to see if my H marries OW. If he marries her, my stand will definitely be over.
One of the big challenges for the LBS is we're fighting time. I'm fortunate I live in a state that (until recently) required a two year waiting period before a divorce could be filed. That's unusual, actually. In most states I think you can be divorced in one year, in some the waiting period is only 6 months. Because we know MLC takes usually 3 - 4 years, sometimes longer, the time crunch for the stander's a big handicap. If divorces could be delayed enough to give the MLC process time to proceed, they're might be fewer divorces and more reconciled marriages.
Well, it is what it is. I do believe that, whatever happens in my sitch, I'm a better person for having chosen to stand. "Character building" is an old-fashioned phrase but it applies to what happens to those of us choosing to do what we can to preserve our marriages. It's a hard, but effective, school.
TMHP
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RCR - thank you. This insight helps me as I am almost free to leave my house and rather than being in a full blown panic I feel liberated that I can make the changes that are holding me back. It is nice to read your story and experience as well.
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RCR,
We are imperect. That is a trivially true statment.
We are all sinners. That is a WRONG Statement.
Dr. NO
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We are imperect. That is a trivially true statment.
We are all sinners. That is a WRONG Statement.
Not wrong at all. Romans 3:23....."for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God"
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RCR,
We are imperect. That is a trivially true statment.
We are all sinners. That is a WRONG Statement.
Dr. NO
How is that wrong? Do you know someone who has never sinned?
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How is that wrong? Do you know someone who has never sinned?
Well some of our MCL'rs do think they no someone - themselves......LOL. I agree with you though, no one is without sin we aren't perfect and were never meant.
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Wow Doc! Is that all you got out of that terrific post? Sinning? Hmmmmm.
Thanks RCR.
I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that we all have/had 'hate and 'anger' for what our spouse's have done to us.
I'll go out on another limb and say that this site brings alot of clarity to the 'happenings'/going ons' inside the MLCer as well as ourselves and thats what makes standing easier in my opinion.
Chump lady express's alot of what we all may have felt (or still do), and to me, it is actually good to an extent for her to let those thoughts/opinions out to make room for some healing. To me, from RCR experience and studies, she brought out a lot of clarity/insight from those posts. :) I personally see lots of healing going on here daily and that needs to come first. :)
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Jojo, I guess this MLC thing bring up sides of us we did not knew we’ve had. Both good and bad sides. You reacted poorly for the first time in 15 years and you’re worried you had let yourself down? Would say many of us had reacted poorly a few times in 15 years.
And that is why I try to downplay the affair. My intention is not to dismiss or deny or ignore the pain and humiliation, but to redirect focus toward Mirror-Work and away from something beyond our control. No matter what, infidelity is pretty much what people focus on when they talk to me about my work. But my research is on infidelity in the context of MLC. MLC is, for my studies and focus, the bigger context. My book is about dealing with MLC and infidelity is a part of that—a major part, but still there are other parts as well.
A point comes when there is no more mirror work to do and, if by then, the MLCer is not done I think the chances for reconciliation are, if not gone, very low. Of course infidelity (and the financial devastation) if pretty much what people focus on. They are the Elefants in the room and the two things (the other is a child born out of the affair) that are tangible. The rest are the MLCer internal issues. To put it bluntly, I could not have cared less if my husband had went and have his MLC in the confined solitude of a monastery, staying there resolving whatever issues he has. From a theoreticall point of view I like the bigger context of MLC. I appreciated Jung’s theory and think it makes sense. However, outside of an academic context, the real concerns are the adultery, abandonement, financial issues (the last two, to me, even bigger that the affair) and divorce or not divorce.
No, since when does a person indulge in depression? They may be wallowing, but indulgence makes it sound as though they are enjoying it. Infidelity is often included in lists of depressive symptoms. I call it depressions dirty secret because though it’s included in the list, the authors who created the list fail to discuss it later when they discuss the other symptoms point-by-point. I remember reading several books on depression and seeing infidelity in the list, but reading nothing about it afterwards in the books. It was quite enlightening to read as a symptom, and then a bit frustrating and even infuriating that the authors spoke of the other symptoms in detail and ignored infidelity.
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Some, rare, people do indulge in depression. They do not want to stop being depressed because they will no longer be the victim and no longer have everyone around them constantly asking how they’re doing. They enjoy that state and do not allow themselves to the cured. I have meet some people like that over the years. They are insufferable. But I don’t think anyone chooses to have a MLC. Agree that infidelity, at least some of it, is a sign of depression. Not all people who sleep with someone they are not married with are depressed but many are. That is strange, the books list infedilty as a symton of depression but, then, don’t elaborate on it. Could it be because the authors find it too
One of the big challenges for the LBS is we're fighting time. I'm fortunate I live in a state that (until recently) required a two year waiting period before a divorce could be filed. That's unusual, actually. In most states I think you can be divorced in one year, in some the waiting period is only 6 months. Because we know MLC takes usually 3 - 4 years, sometimes longer, the time crunch for the stander's a big handicap. If divorces could be delayed enough to give the MLC process time to proceed, they're might be fewer divorces and more reconciled marriages.
Trusting, yes, we are fighting time in more than one way. In some cases, even if divorces could be delayed it would still not do. My husband first went to court October 2008. Currently, nearly 4 years down the line, he is on his second court case. He remains in replay, we remain legally married, I lost any interest in reconcile. Sometimes too much time on “limbo” can be detrimental to the LBS and the hopes of reconciliation. I would be much more willing to reconcile had we divorced years ago.
Maybe the real problem for me in all this is not that I don’t believe my husband will, eventually, make it. He most likely will. It is the fact that I’m logical and, to me, it makes no sense to remain married (divorce offers more choices: to remain single, to remarry someone else, to remarry the same person; not to have to be married to someone who is living to someone else, allowing more easily for a reconciliation, to have the financial situation solved). Since I have been trapped on the financial and divorce front I’m not willing to take my husband back.
I’m certain he will repent, say he is sorry (and mean it), and show remorse. But, for me, those things are not enough and they are all in the future. Meanwhile the future has come for years on end and our marital situation remains the same, only worsening any existent possibility.
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DGU,
Oh my! Thanks for the reference. Fortunately 'religious dicates' and 'historycentric religions' don't do much for me. But thanks for the reference.
Thundarr,
If you are asking me, I know many, including myself who have not sinned'. I struggle with defintion of 'sin'. I don't know what is. Anyway, I am imperfect, but that a a far cry from being a sinner.
Rookie13,
The entire article of RCR was great. I found the ref. to sin odd with the rest of it, that is why I mentioned it.
Dr. NO
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AnneJ,
I agree completely...in your ref. to MLC doing its MLC time in a monastary and not bothering others and causing financial and health destruction. To some extent LBS will be affected by emotional and health issues and depending on earning power/history of MLC/LBS, financial issue would be there too.
But the way legal system (in USA at least) is designed ......to the extent it does not recongize MLC, but even if it did, still would have had few financial/children custody consequences for them.
Too sad.
Dr. NO
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Sorry I’m returning to this thread late. I wanted to thank RCR for her long post to me, which was so full of substance to respond to.
First off, I wanted to clarify that I don’t think people who “stand” are crazy. I was replying rhetorically to someone who posted – am I crazy for standing? In that instance, and my choice was “crazy,” I said yes.
I do understand that people are motivated to try and reconcile. I tried it myself for over a year. I very much get the impulse. I have to say, however, in my experience it was far more painful to attempt reconciliation with a cake eater (or to have false reconciliation with someone pretending to NOT be a cake eater) than the initial discovery of the affair was. And I think it is abusive of a cheater to want their spouse to twist in the wind while they “decide” or encourage them to do the humiliating dance of “pick me!”
I didn’t heal until I left. That’s my experience. I divorced and it’s years later and I’ve been remarried now for two years to a wonderful man, who was also once a betrayed spouse. So that’s my history. Standing = ouch. New beginning = joy. Hard fought to get there, but well worth it IMO.
You wrote:
My husband did choose the option to get a divorce, but I got a say too and I said No. I was not going to be forced into something I didn’t want because he chose stupid. And technically he chose to be persuaded by the alienator to file for divorce. He would not have done it on his own, but being persuadable certainly does not absolve him; he did it; it was his choice to take that action and clearly it says a lot about him being weak since he allowed someone else to manipulate him like that.
Reading your story the part where I really started to root for you is when you set boundaries at the end.
You write about character:
I separate bad behavior from a bad person.
What defines our character if not our actions? Our opinion of ourselves? I’m sure many foul, horrid people think they’re just swell. In fact, I’d say lack of insight into one’s self is a pretty good sign of poor character. My H’s ex-wife (a serial cheater) said (when her double life was revealed) “I am NOT defined by my relationships.”
Well what are you defined by? She failed at the most significant relationships – being a wife and mother. So King’s X? She’ll choose instead to be defined by being a National Merit Scholar in 1982? Choosing to cheat, IMO, does define you.
Absolutely, you can take that abhorrent character and devote yourself to forming a better character with new acts of good character. But IMO you cannot “decide” yourself to be a good person. You have to earn it. There needs to be acts of restitution, of trust earning, of humility to EARN back someone’s love after you betray them.
You wrote:
. Standing does not involve putting one’s life on hold, but it does involve being married even when your partner is choosing to act against your vows.
One painful lesson I learned from my “reconciliation” is that no one person can hold up a marriage by themselves. And to try to do that is excruciating and humiliating. To deny someone a divorce who wants to divorce you, IMO, is not noble, it is passive aggressive. Understandably, you feel powerless and upset. So to deny this divorce gives a sense of agency.
But I think it is a false sense. I would not want to ever again spend one New York minute with someone who doesn’t want me and me alone. I will not be an option for someone who does not make me a priority. Who refuses to honor their commitments. What kind of marriage is it if you have to hold a legal gun to their head to make them “commit” to you?
If you want to wait for them to come to their senses, they can do it after the divorce. Let them earn their way back. I think anything less is a hollow victory. I just don’t think you convince people to stay married to you by letting them eat cake, or “nice-ing” them out of an affair. All you do with that approach is feed their already colossal sense of entitlement.
Per “indulging” in depression (related to MLC) – again, I come back to character. Few things IMO are as depressing as being cheated on. And yet the betrayed person isn’t cheating. They’re “standing.” Surely, they suffer as greatly from depression as the cheater.
You wrote:
I still think, overall, the affair is played down around here. We're told not to worry, it is just a side effect, the person was convenient, OW/OM meant nothing. True, it is a symptom, the other person was willing but OW/OM meant something, at least during their existence. Even if only a shoulder to cry upon they meant something.
Wow. That really surprises me! I would think infidelity would be the HUGEST part of a MLC. The most devastating, shattering part. Anything else, like a new car or job change or religious epiphany or whatever would be window dressing compared to betraying the person you purport to love.
Yes the OW/OM alienator could be anyone (narcissistic supply is narcissistic supply). But it is still a betrayal.
You wrote:
he might not have met your criteria if you only accept those things immediately upon discovery of infidelity—or soon after. He was mired in entitlement and manipulation for a long time and even more mired in it as the receiver with the alienator as dishing it out. She faked a pregnancy first,
Do these OW come with a playbook? :P Mine claimed pregnancy too – she was 46. (Didn’t know I knew.)
Hats off to your of 3.5 years of standing. I don’t think I could stand it. But I admire – and I think we have common ground – where you finally set your boundaries and consequences and it wasn’t until that point that he came around. I don’t think that is a coincidence.
Thank you for letting me post on your site and sharing your story with me. www.chumplady.com
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Hi CL, I totally see your point. Actually most here probably see your point and questioned the same things you did. No arguing the Lying, Cheating and Deceit are deal breakers as it is for most. Standing, in my opinion, is a rarity.
How the heck is anybody going to see that our spouse's are MLC! lol. They can't. plain and simple.
I wouldn't expect anybody to try and understand MLC, the time, energy and PAIN is enough to run. But when you do understand it, it is much easier to stand.
That is where this site comes in. People who have done the work. didn't quit. wanted to understand what happened. No humiliation in the world was going to stop some from understanding what the hell happened. It is soooo much more than cheating, lying and being deceived. That is a script for most of our spouse's if not all here.
One thing I feel we all know here is that we are not seeing the real spouse. When you put the time in to understand you do realize they are "out of character' "out of personality" which I think RCR was explaining in her post in not these exact words. This is not a whole marriage worth of deceit. It's a MLC period in which they are in deep angst.
I totally get not putting up with the "offending' spouse as I'm sure most don't. And I totally get even if MLC caused it and you understood it to be that, it would not make a difference to you.
Best of luck in your new marriage! :)
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Oh, Chump Lady, you're like a shot of B12 in my upper arm.
I get such a boost from you!
Hear me roar!
And I needed it today!
:-\ :-\ >:( ;D
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Thanks you just made my day with some clarity.. This definitely applies to mine who told me " if you had been a better wife, I wouldn't have cheated" I asked him to define the word " husband"
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One thing I feel we all know here is that we are not seeing the real spouse. When you put the time in to understand you do realize they are "out of character' "out of personality" which I think RCR was explaining in her post in not these exact words. This is not a whole marriage worth of deceit.
I understand grieving the person you thought they were, or once were. But IMO you have to deal with the reality you're dealt. That person isn't there any longer. They may not be ever coming back. My suspicion is that the cheater has probably been the taker in the relationship for a long time, before the cheating. That they have a weak character. But even if they are stricken with a MLC, okay, that "out of character" person is the person you are now with. You only get to communicate with THAT person. They don't switch on and off like Sybil.
And that person betrayed you. In character, out of character, they betrayed you. So it's not a whole marriage worth of deceit? Well, to that I'd say "Other than that Mrs. Lincoln, how'd you like the play?" Some things can eclipse a whole marriage, can ruin the play.
My ex-H used to like to say about his affair(s) -- "Well it didn't take up that much of my time, really." Like he was billing his marriage in 6 minute increments. Like infidelity could be measured with a spread sheet. Okay, so the entire marriage didn't suck. He was fun to dance with, have sex with, travel with... sometimes. And the good, or even okay, the domestic holding pattern of normal, was certainly the "majority" of the marriage. But I had to conclude that I didn't know him. I didn't know which "character" I was living with at any time. Had he slipped out at lunch and firetrucked the OW, and then come home to dinner? (yes, many times). Who IS that guy?!
None of the rest of it mattered. He was capable of that. Repeatedly. In the face of my pain and devastation and doing it again.
If it's a half a marriage of deceit or a whole marriage or .0001% of the marriage -- IMO it is devastating.
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Thanks you just made my day with some clarity.. This definitely applies to mine who told me " if you had been a better wife, I wouldn't have cheated" I asked him to define the word " husband"
Oh!
That makes me double over and want to faint!
But then I remembered we were talking about projecting, which MLC'ers, and I'm sure garden variety narcissists do.
So I think what your husband meant to say was, "If I had been a better husband, I wouldn't have cheated." Instead he projected onto you.
Don't accept his bull ess!
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Character? Goofy...... Lucky for me my MLCer didn't lie much. Woke up one day and in a desperate panic took his guitars and amps to ask a 'friend' if he could leave some stuff there bc his M had become hopeless and he was moving out. That's when he got hit by a "tsunami". :-* :-*
Since then he is mostly quiet. Lingers in the driveway and acts bashful but for the most part he acts like he thinks he's gone forever. ::)
He doesn't think of it as cheating bc he figures he announced he was with "someone else" and "a real friend now" ::)
Since we have 2 Ds together he comes around occasionally to visit them but he is visibly not able to have an R with them. I can see it. Me either, he can't have an R with me. It's superficial. His actions and words are almost robotic and so odd to observe. He tried to offer to help with the roof and the lawn a few times but later renigged. I think the Affair Down OW told him he can not help with chores.
So what we have is a person totally convinced his only option to salvage his future was abandoning his wife and kids and starting a new life. ::)
Not going well...just like RCR said in her articles he now appears more confused and lost. He seems way to HAPPY when he runs into me . His other life includes not being able to find any friends or familly to accept OW. Isolated in a hot, smelly, messy, manipulated existence all the while his wonderful family forges ahead with all the good things in life.....God, school, good friends, sports...animals...charity work..the arts and culture. I could go on forever. ;D
Point being, I will Stand and hold my Hs spot bc he has shown kindness through the insanity and because I love him. ;D That's it. My Ds will Thank me for it one day. I enjoyed reading what everyone wrote here. Especially RCR giving me a shout out about Clingy Boomerangs..... I can put 'handling Clingy Boomerangs' on my resume. ;)
Thank you as well Chump Lady. Never been mad at cake eater yet because I don't think he is cake eating. Just gone and polite...........and 'thinky' ::)
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CL,
My ex was a giver her whole life, put herself pretty much last as I did. We both came from big family's and also have 4 children.
My ex was frugal to herself and had a tough time spending money on things she really wanted. In my honest opinion she never was a taker.
Now did she have a very rough childhood? Yup.
She was pretty wonderful till her past caught up with her in my opinion.
Reality does suck that she is going through a rough time and I am the one she blames, but..... for better or for worse. For now :)
Life for me does not evolve around whether I have a partner or not. Thats a insecurity. This gave me some much needed time to really connect with my children on a level they have never even seen never mind me. :)
Not to mention the respect they feel for me for standing. :) Maybe it will help them down the line. :)
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CL,
I think Rookie stated it perfectly in that it is so hard to not only see our W's going through a tough time but also knowing that we are the object of their blame for it. We WANT to be able to reach out and be there for him, akin to if they had a debilitating illness or disease and needed us to comfort them. This is soooo much more than an affair or character flaw in our spouses. Too many other elements to put it in one small box.
My W was never a taker either and in fact was just the opposite. She rarely bought things for herself, even when I encouraged her to. She had little interest and would take the money and buy things for the kids (and sometimes me) instead. She would find value in little and inexpensive things. Her parents threw out or gave away most of her things from when she was a child but she held onto one toy that she had treasured when she was little. She did not hoard things and put up with the fact that I collected several things and she only collected smaller trinkets or keepsakes. No, she was never a taker and in writing this I'm reminded of one of the millions of reasons why I love her so much. She always put the kids first and worried about their well-being even when we were out together. This new person she has become would go days without even calling to check on them but is doing better now. I know the real her and I really don't think she could have fooled me for 21 years. She is a gentle soul who has never intentionally hurt anyone but has been hurt by the actions of others. In many ways I'm happy to see her taking charge of her life and being assertive while also buying things for herself for a change and doing things she enjoys. This whole thing is such a double-edged sword in that we WANT to be supportive of our spouses, yet doing so encourages them to do things that are not in OUR best interest. Through this I think many of us have learned just what love really is.
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CL,
My STB EW was taker all along our married life. Not overtly..but by manipulation...nagging...crying...throwing tantrum (her body grew, the kid inside did not). With every tantrum, my tolerance went up, natural thing but a bad thing.
In last 4 years (and my guess is her MLC began somewhere during this time) Her take:give ratio was more like 88:12. Then BD and then all the chaos. Peace would return soon.
Dr. NO
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Mamma Bear, you wrote:
I will Stand and hold my Hs spot bc he has shown kindness through the insanity and because I love him. That's it. My Ds will Thank me for it one day.
but then you also wrote:
he comes around occasionally to visit them but he is visibly not able to have an R with them. I can see it. Me either, he can't have an R with me. It's superficial.
So how is he kind to you? He reneges on his commitments (roof repair and marital), he is superficial, and he has abandoned his daughters. By holding him in high regard, what are you signaling to your kids? That people who walk out on them are still people you can be friendly with? This IS cake eating. He has you (you're still there, no consequences for him) AND he has the OW.
He may not seem "happy" -- (I'd remind him his unhappiness is due to his poor choices) -- but his ACTIONS show you he is with her. He lives in that camp. As long as he can come and go, I don't see how things can improve, he's in the nirvanic state of cake. http://chumplady.com/2012/04/the-unified-theory-of-cake/
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Hi CL,
I respect your decision to move on as I also thought that as an option.
I respect the people here more who try/understand the MLC process.
Your decision to move on and remarry may be a good one as your 'first pick' seems to be a man who could never meet your needs and you realized that a bit to late.
Yes, our spouse's here are selfish these days but that was not the norm for most in my opinion.
We choose to stand because we see/saw something completely different in our picks and we stand and 'hope' for a safe return with out the issues. A better marriage if you will and it is out there.
This is something you gave up in your H and probably for good reasons well before MLC happened in my opinion.
Please stop trying to analyze our spouse's while they are obviously 'flip flopp'n' around in another shell.
Of course they are hurt'n us and if you think they are stable and are making rational decisions at this point in their lives well..... hmmmmm.
JMO.
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I'll second that.
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Chump Lady, My Hs actions before BD were those of withdrawal and depression. His sudden departure was very against the man I knew all those years (16).
Since he was in tears a lot after he left and told me with few words that he would have died if he stayed I tried to find an explanation. ::) ::) ::)
When I discovered this website I was amazed to see that everything RCR described was what I was seeing.
My H doesn't come and go as he pleases. He lives with OW and gets the Ds for visits and play/swim/ hang out with Dad. He is NOT there mentally. No sense in me throwing up my hands and calling a lawyer when several people have told me stories (including my sister) about Hs that ran away depressed, acted a bit out of sorts(where buses don't run) and after 2 years woke up terrified about what they had done and why. ???
Since I usually take care of the Ds and work and go to church and do yardwork etc etc like a normal person, I figured I'd hold the fort for H because it seems he's in a crisis. That's some serious stuff. It will play out like a thousand times before. The names and faces change but the stories are eerily similar. ::)
I for one am not the type to be shy or let anyone walk all over me. No sir-ree. I am from Brooklyn and I am quieting down on my own journey. LOL! Part of the process. My Ds, I hope, will come to understand that the reason I stood for my H was bc he was deep down inside all along a very fair and honest person who gave us everything we ever needed. This implosion we saw coming in his irritability and sadness is a blip on the screen of an otherwise exemplary giving and kind hearted individual.
God as my witness, when I was hitting rock bottom from drinking 12 years ago, I was out of my mind. So selfish and uncaring. Now I have a new perspective to what it feels like to have everything getting worse and worse and you don't know why.
Sometimes life just has to play itself out. Sometimes patience opens doors that we never knew were there.
Anyway, I do not hold my H responsible for not being able to have an R with anyone right now. He's so much involved in self loathing it's not possible for him to enjoy anything. We all pray this changes .... and it wil.
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Chump Lady, I don't think anyone here is saying that you are wrong but only that you are comparing apples to oranges. When it comes to serial cheaters I think you are spot on that they will likely continue that behavior ad nauseum and there is likely a personality disorder (actually the accepted term now is more "personality style") that would prohibit such people from truly committing to a relationship. But, the vast majority of people here have spouses or ex-spouses who did not take the immoral road until something inside them just.... snapped. If you read through RCR's articles I think you will find certain factors that are not consistent with the examples you have given. The most telling of thee would be Bomb Drop itself as in many of our cases everyone around our spouse can see that they have become someone they don't recognize.
People get divorced all the time without deserting their kids, turning against their faith and adopting new clothing and musical tastes (usually those of a much younger generation). I honestly don't think you could look at a 65 year-old man who suddenly leaves his W of 35 + years to take up surfing and skateboarding as a serial cheater in his right mind. Or, how about a man who asked his W if he could move his OW into the house to "help out with the kids." Or, a man who offers to let the OW sleep at the foot of the bed with him and his W. Or how about a woman who leaves her well-to-do H for a house painter that was hired to paint their kitchen and moves off to a farmhouse to fulfill her lifelong dream of running her own antique shop? Or a W who leaves her upper-class H for a 30 year-old World of Warcraft addict who works at Wal-Mart and lives in his aunt's basement? Or a W who leaves her H of over 18 years along with the house and kids because he watches wrestling and thinks Britney Spears is hot? It's all here in living color.
Btw, where is that thread "Things my MLCer has said"? I think some of the newbies would get a real kick out of it!!
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Mamma - all I can say is......damn!!!
Of all the hilarious and gut-splitting posts over the past year from you, that is BY FAR one of the most poignant and heartfelt ones I have ever read here or anywhere else. I think you quieted everyone who ever assumed you were in denial of any kind. That was just beautiful!!!
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Btw, where is that thread "Things my MLCer has said"? I think some of the newbies would get a real kick out of it!!
How do I go about finding this thread T. I think it would be an interesting read.
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I forgot about the OW at the foot of the bed! ;D ;D ;D ;D That never loses it's luster.
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Hand up in the air here!
It was my H who told me that he wouldn't have to leave if I would just allow OW to "sleep at the foot of our bed." That that was all he/she wanted.
He was serious. I'll never forget it. It was just a few weeks after BD. We were standing in my office at home, H had come over to install a new printer for me, and he was so sincere.
It was then I began to realize something seriously bizarre was going on. . .
Just wanted to add that!
TMHP
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What's bizarre about after 38 years of marriage someone wanting to have a skank sleep at the foot of their marital bed? Oh, wait.......
We really need some humor to kick off this weekend, and just as Trusting has so valiantly chimed in I think we can all find it in ourselves to forget for a short while the pain behind some of these incredibly strange yet funny stories. Humor may well be what keeps us sane.
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Oh, Trusting, how did you keep a straight face?! For having no poker face, I've been pretty proud of how I've contained myself after a few of H's little "revelations" during this process, but that one I would be no match for. It should definitely be line #1 on the "You might be an MLC'er if..." comedy tour.
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Hmm. Some clarification -- I do not believe all cheaters are serial cheaters. I do believe, however, that when someone is cheating on you -- whether a serial cheater or a MLC -- the only way to get them to stop eating cake is to change YOURSELF. You cannot change them. You only get to control you. So that means enforcing your boundaries with consequences and setting limits. That is very painful to do. It's frightening to let go of the outcome when you assert yourself. But to face the fear of losing that thing, is the best way to gain that thing.
I do not believe that nice-ing people out of affairs and waiting for them patiently to return to their senses works. Instead it signals to them that you are okay with cake.
Also, I'm not against reconciliation. I find true examples of it to be rare, but I'm not against it -- if BOTH parties are committed to it. That alone is a very difficult road. IMO it is an impossible road if the cheater is still engaged in the affair. There's nothing to work with.
I recently interviewed Dr. George Simon -- and he talks about a trap betrayed spouses fall into (OMG, I totally fell into it) -- of thinking what cheating people need is "insight." No, he argues, they are very aware of what they are doing. But you haven't convinced them to play by the rules. He has a rhyme that goes "It's not that they don't SEE -- it is that they DISAGREE."
It's not that a cheating MLC spouse doesn't know you want them back or are distraught without them. They get it. They DISAGREE with you, however, that they should stop cheating. If you work to convince them that they need to return to their senses, he says you're "wasting your time."
He refers to cheating and other such acts as being "character disordered." Part of the interview here:
CL: For people who are on the receiving end of bad behavior by (a cheater), is it better to constantly to be the marriage police and gently confront them when they step out of line? If you’re neurotic, you’re buying books for them on Amazon and trying to help them figure themselves out.
GS: I think that would be a total waste of time because it assumes something that is patently untrue. It assumes that what they need is insight. I make that point in my book. We live under this delusion! Therapists do this all the time! They think they are going to be the person who says just the right thing in just the right way, so that this time a light bulb is going to go off in this person’s mind and all of a sudden — they will understand and “see” the error of their ways! The problem is, they already understand!
It’s not that the cheater or disturbed character doesn’t know what they’re doing and what damage comes from it. If the wounded party is crying their heart out and is miserable, it’s not like you don’t know what you’ve done and what an effect it has had! It’s right there.
Character disordered people are not stupid people. They’re contrary people. They know what the rules are, they know what the expectations are. But they haven’t made the decision in their heart to play by the rules that you want them to play by. That’s a matter of the heart. So, like I’ve said over and over in countless workshops:
They already see but they just disagree. A little rhyming phrase I use a lot. I can’t say it enough! Therapists make the same mistake!
And they’ll change only when the cost of their behavior rises too high, the benefits of doing something different becomes more clear, that’s when they’ll change. It’s not that people can’t or won’t change. It’s under what circumstances they’ll be motivated to change. What you need to do if you’re in a relationship with someone like this is set those limits and enforce those boundaries! You must set the terms of engagement! You can’t trust them to do it. When there is a clear cost to continuing their crazy behavior, there will perhaps be some incentive to change.
You can define the terms of engagement. The problem for neurotic folks is they don’t like operating in that mode. It’s not natural for them. It feels to them like they’re being a hard [ass], like they’re being too selfish. They have all these ideas about how inappropriate it is to start calling some shots! But asserting your needs and enforcing the limits is just what you have to do.
The rest of the interview is here: http://chumplady.com/2012/06/an-interview-with-dr-george-simon-on-character-disturbance/
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A lot of that resonated, CL. Certainly the part about us only being able to change ourselves. We talk about that here constantly.
And the idea of them disagreeing with us may just be another way of saying some of the other things that we talk about here; perhaps RCR may have a view, or DGU -- he knows her articles better than anyone.
I do believe, however, that they in many cases just shut their eyes and ears to the effect that their behaviour has on others, because they can't face themselves at this point.
I do think that Dr. Simon is right, though, when he says that people won't change unless it is in their interests to do so, and that applies in MLC as well.
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I have to say that I agree with CL to some degree on this.My H saw and knew the devastation he caused...I got to a point where i couldn't even look at him, because he was caught out lie after lie and i had had enough. I physically pushed him out the door...(before i found this site) he begged with his usual false promises that he wouldn't talk to her again (he did so again on many occasions after this) but i was done...anger overcome the fear and when I made him leave (and this may sound mad) I felt good...not because i was punishing him, but because i was not worrying about what people would say or how I would live without him...but I was feeling I had some dignity back, especially after the crumbling begging wreck I had been on discovery of OW (well no the immediate discovery as I kicked him out then too) but the sad reality of the aftermath. :(
Many know my H is a CB and never really moved far away, never moved in with OW or flaunted her...I think he knew that would have been it for me...and i am even confused why I let him home...never more so than now. He lived in his own flat for 18mth...coming home several times...never giving up his bolt hole and when the heat got too much here he would run again. Only when i got to the point where I felt truly done...I didn't shout and scream at him...I just said leave me be and do whatever..did he sit up and take notice. Now, thinking back...I think i was so happy and excited by this and him wanting to come home, give up his cave, i didn't give it enough time. I was then truly detached and should have waited until i was sure.
He has been home now going on for 8mths and i have to say I am disappointed with our R. Maybe I had expectations ( I know OP ::) ) but why shouldn't I. I am now considering if i want to continue being with him. He has not cheated (as far as I know, but can we ever be sure ) he is just not what a committed loving H should be IMO...so for now i am still while i decide what it is I want. He doesn't want to talk....doesn't want to try anything really so maybe it is just our time to go our separate ways.
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He has not cheated (as far as I know, but can we ever be sure ) he is just not what a committed loving H should be IMO...
NOPE because he is still in crisis.
And he is not yet capable of giving you what you want.
I guess trying to eat the cake when it is only half baked just does not work.
CL FTR nothing you said in your post above is anything that we do not preach on this forum.
It sounds almost exactly like our advice.
I guess the only difference is that we hold a slight sliver of hope that at some point these knuckle heads will emerge from the dark tunnels.
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And the idea of them disagreeing with us may just be another way of saying some of the other things that we talk about here; perhaps RCR may have a view, or DGU -- he knows her articles better than anyone.
Thank you for the compliment Trustandlove.
I did comment earlier in the thread. I believe RCR commented earlier in the thread as well, including clarifying some insight on "cake eating" with an MLCer. I do not know if Chump Lady has read RCR' articles....RCR has several on infidelity.
Chump Lady's focus seems to be on the affair. My focus is more on the MLC process, and the affair is a symptom (often the most public and painful one). I may look at MLC less emotionally than many, but as I learned about the symptoms of MLC I just figured the possibility was high that my MLCer was likely to do any and all of the behaviors associated with MLC.
I let my MLCer know I disagreed with what she was doing, but I also detached. As I sometimes say to those I know, during MLC my MLCer is going to do what MLCers do.
Here is a piece of one of RCR's Standing articles that I found helpful.
In fighting there are sides working against each other. Standers give up the fight--the power struggle. Thus the MLCer has nothing with the spouse to fight against. Standing is about Passive Resistance.
RCR has written a few times to let the MLCer have their crisis. I agree with that. This thread is focused on the affair. I am not. And out of fairness, let me also say that my MLCer has not flaunted any OM to me. She told me she had one, but that was two years ago. She has never brought one in my presence, nor said anything about one since then. I have done no snooping.
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I think if I focused on my MLCers affair there is no way I could stand. I do believe ow is a symptom and a way for my H to escape reality. He knows this too deep deep down. When my H first left he said to me I'm using that poor girl. Now he is with her all the time. However if I focus on him being with her I think I would have to stand down.
The OP is in MHO just a symptom of the crisis.
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I do not believe that nice-ing people out of affairs and waiting for them patiently to return to their senses works. Instead it signals to them that you are okay with cake.
I don't believe that anyone is advocating to nice-ing people out of affairs, as the affair is the symptom not the cause in many cases. When I first started on here the very first piece of knowledge that I received is that I cannot change him and to focus on me and changing me. It isn't a pretty process self-evaluation but because of it I can cope and move forward in my life. It has also helped me change from being an angry person who couldn't please an MLC crisis H to one that is nicer and more patient. I don't think it signals that you are okay with cake, but rather that you recognized that you had some issues and worked on them, in turn it settles a person into a more productive lifestyle while the MLCer keeps imploding. For me it was becoming a nicer person.
Outsiders looking in choose to view this as being a push over but for me it works because I feel more centered and happy, I chose to forgive for my own sake not his. He clearly knows how I feel about his actions, but I also choose to move past that. Is that cake? To some maybe, but to me it is part of my healing. I think everyone has a different viewpoint based upon their own relationship details, but really each situation is different and we are the only ones to know our H's and the only ones who can determine what fits for us.
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I guess the only difference is that we hold a slight sliver of hope that at some point these knuckle heads will emerge from the dark tunnels.
Does the "slight sliver of hope" imply a degree of attachment and expectation?
This is where I struggle with the logic for the LBS:
The advice is to detach, to live like they are not coming back. It therefore follows if you thoroughly detach you do not care if they come back because there is no emotional attachment. So, if the "knuckle heads" emerge from the dark tunnel will the LBS even care? Should the LBS care? Does "caring" imply attachment? If the MLCer wants to return it is because the MLCer has a need; it won't be because the LBS has a need; the LBS no longer has an emotional attachment.
If the theory holds that MLC is a form of depression and the MLCer wants to return to a thoroughly detached and now emotionally independent and emotionally healthy LBS, then the relationship can only be one of a therapist(LBS)/ patient(MLCer) scenario. Nothing wrong with that of course, it would be noble and selfless, but at BD, that is our new reality if the detaching advice is adhered to.
honour
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http://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/self-focus_releasers_detach_practical-applications-to-detachment.html
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Boy, Honour, what a post!
You hit the nail on the head of what I ponder about quite regularly!
I guess that is where the detachment, with love, comes into play?
The more I detach, the more I wonder if I still love my H? I can't love him now. The man/child he is right now is completely unloveable. Completely.
Stayed has said that love can be re-kindled at a later time. I have had to blindly accept that statement - because if I think about it too much - I have doubts that this could actualy happen.
The advice is to detach, to live like they are not coming back. It therefore follows if you thoroughly detach you do not care if they come back because there is no emotional attachment.
I don't know if the LBS doesn't or won't care if they come back or not. I think we need to accept the fact that they may or may not come back.
It is really a difficult concept. To live like they are not coming back - in my mind - means that I go forward with my life. I do not plan to be alone for the remainder of my life....so, eventually, I would imagine that I would be open to a new relationship.
But, I am not divorced. I remain legally married. So, until my divorce is through - I continue to live my life as if I am married? But, I have no partner. I am alone (with my kids...thankfully).
So....let's take it further - if my H finally divorces me....I am a free woman. There are many Standers here who are divorced...and yet continue to Stand for their marriage.
When are you really living like they are never coming back?
So, if the "knuckle heads" emerge from the dark tunnel will the LBS even care? Should the LBS care? Does "caring" imply attachment? If the MLCer wants to return it is because the MLCer has a need; it won't be because the LBS has a need; the LBS no longer has an emotional attachment.
I think that this is the fear or concern of many Standers - who have been Standing for some time (1, 2, 3 + years). Will I still care? Will I even want him/her back? I wonder about this.....
If the theory holds that MLC is a form of depression and the MLCer wants to return to a thoroughly detached and now emotionally independent and emotionally healthy LBS, then the relationship can only be one of a therapist(LBS)/ patient(MLCer) scenario. Nothing wrong with that of course, it would be noble and selfless, but at BD, that is our new reality if the detaching advice is adhered to.
Wow! The relationship can only be one of a therapist and a patient!???!! Wow! That isn't the relationship that I would have in my mind, that is for sure.
Few of us are therapists. And, even if I were, I don't think that I could/would, or should be counseling my partner.
The MLCer has a need...and the LBS does not. Wow. It does sound a bit lopsided, doesnt it?
I know that i sound a bit Pollyana - but wouldn't it be great if we both were to heal ourselves and reconcile as two healthy people? But, it seems that many (most) MLCers return broken (if/when they return).
I wonder how much an LBS can take?
Good questions, Honour. Wish I had the answer for them. ;)
limitless
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Hand up in the air here!
It was my H who told me that he wouldn't have to leave if I would just allow OW to "sleep at the foot of our bed." That that was all he/she wanted.
He was serious. I'll never forget it. It was just a few weeks after BD. We were standing in my office at home, H had come over to install a new printer for me, and he was so sincere.
It was then I began to realize something seriously bizarre was going on. . .
Just wanted to add that!
TMHP
Just look at her as like...like the family dog. Sleeping there at the foot of the bed.
Oh, can you imagine if SHE'D heard that?
Why, it would have suited your H just fine for her to have a spot at the foot of your marital bed.
Another sign they don't even care about the OW's feelings--it's all just fantasy, the OP is a shallow character, available for the MLC'er to use.
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What Chump Lady has written does not conflict with what we believe about MLC.
MLC is a character disorder.
Many here believe it is temporary. Many here believe that if they are not nice or compassionate about MLC, including understanding that the affair is a symptom of the character disorder, that the MLCer will not come back to the marriage.
Many here believe (want to believe but are conflicted, often) that the MLCer will one day heal him/herself of their character disorder and will be a full partner (not a patient or child-like character) in a mutually committed and closed relationship.
Each LBS has to decide for him or herself how long they're willing to wait for that to happen, and if they trust themselves to recognize that they aren't being used again by the MLCer during a reconnection (as opposed to a touch-and-go or cake-eating), and that they trust themselves to let go of the pain caused by past transgressions.
I think Chump Lady is asking you to also trust that you're not being a door mat, and that you're going to be ok if you have to wait forever to be in a healthy relationship, because there is a significant chance that the MLCer may never come back to the relationship as a healthy partner. If your faith, religious or otherwise, tells you that waiting forever is a viable option for you, then so be it--that is a choice that many of you will make.
Personally I think that is a waste of life, but others may feel that it IS their life's calling to be forever devoted to their husband or wife--even if that husband or wife does not return the devotion.
EITHER outcome is very, very sad. It hurts a great deal to give up on the hope that the character disorder is temporary (or temporary enough) and move on. I think that except for the very religious here, where hope is not the driving factor, and religion dictates standing as a rule no matter why or what, our biggest fear is that right after we move on in life and enter a healthy and loving relationship with another person, our MLCer spouse--often the parent of our children--would transform themselves into an ideal character worthy of being our partner again. But it'd be too late, the door closed. This breaks our hearts.
But nothing that CL has said here conflicts with anything we know about MLC, except that many of us feel MLC is a temporary character disorder, and CL is urging us to consider the possibility that MLC is not as temporary as one might like to think. Or that any of us get a say in the matter. Often the MLCer is truly narcissistic and always was--that person will never be a suitable partner unless you like to be the relationship cop and be used regularly (please get counseling if that is the case!) Sometimes the MLCer has made a new baby who deserves two parents--that can't be fixed. Yes, your children also deserve two parents, but your MLCer spouse has made an unfixable mess. Often there are no children involved, but the MLCer will NEVER go back to the LBS.
And sometimes, with careful nurturing (feeding the squirrel!) the MLCer emerges from this awful process as a battered but better person, and a beautiful reconciliation can occur (after a lot of work.) CL is right when she says this is not a common occurrence. But I would maintain that what RCR has set up here--a primer on MLC and standing--is a unique workshop that can increase the odds of successful reconciliation. If we're looking at statistics, it's for darn sure that we're not looking at folks like the people here who have a better understanding of MLC (who, besides a few hundred people who read here or a handful of other standing websites like DB understand MLC??)
I think an understanding of MLC can increase the odds of reconciliation, can assist with the process of reconciliation. But it is a character disorder, it is an indication of at least one very damaged person (maybe both partners are damaged). And it's up to each MLCer and LBSer to decide if/when he/she will re-engage in a relationship with their partner. Who knows what the odds are, since nobody has studied MLC and people who skillfully and patiently stand.
All CL is asking is that you go into this process not with hope alone, not with illusion/delusion, but with your eyes and your mind wide open. You get one life--it's up to you to decide how you want to spend it and on or with whom. You have to look back in the end and ask yourself, "Was it worth it?" The hard part is that we don't always have the foresight to know with certainty what is the right thing to do. Some of us have a good idea but lack the strength or self esteem to do what is in our own self interests (that can go either way--the strength and esteem to stand, or the strength and esteem to know when to call it and move on to something good for the short rest of our lives.)
Love to you all! I love my LBS peeps!
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Stayed has said that love can be re-kindled at a later time. I have had to blindly accept that statement - because if I think about it too much - I have doubts that this could actualy happen.
In a regular, non MLC affair it can be done. After a MLC I think it depends of all that has happened. The LBS will change and move on so it may never be possible to do so.
I don't know if the LBS doesn't or won't care if they come back or not. I think we need to accept the fact that they may or may not come back.
It is really a difficult concept. To live like they are not coming back - in my mind - means that I go forward with my life. I do not plan to be alone for the remainder of my life....so, eventually, I would imagine that I would be open to a new relationship.
But, I am not divorced. I remain legally married. So, until my divorce is through - I continue to live my life as if I am married? But, I have no partner. I am alone (with my kids...thankfully).
Exactly, living if they are not coming back means move on, find someone new, remarry, have a new life. Like you I still legally married (against my will). I have dated, I liked the man but, you see, I was still legally married. :( The concept does not work very well. If we really live like they are not coming back there is no more room for them. Unless, of course, the LBS has no plnas to have another relationship ever or the MLCer turn up when the LBS is still not in another relationship.
So....let's take it further - if my H finally divorces me....I am a free woman. There are many Standers here who are divorced...and yet continue to Stand for their marriage.
When are you really living like they are never coming back?
I dare say, in that sense, they are not. They are wainting for the MLC process to end and, hopefully, have their MLCer abck. Some of those LBS, of course, may end up finding someone and, in that case, I think things will change.
To it is more about Standing for ourselves, until we re fit and strong enough to move forward, with or without the MLCer. Standing for a marriage that does not exist and a vanishing husband, in my case, does not make sense.
I think that this is the fear or concern of many Standers - who have been Standing for some time (1, 2, 3 + years). Will I still care? Will I even want him/her back? I wonder about this.....
Like the MLCer we will cycle and, again, it will depend of what happens in the LBS life, how long they are in crisis, the type of contact/relationship we have with out MLCer. In the end many of us may not want the MLCer back. But we had become strong, know our selves better and know what man/woman we want in our lives.
Well, we have a normally depressed spouse, when they stop being depressed we do not have a patient and therapist relationship with them. Like you do not have a patient therapist relationship with a true borderline spouse.
However, I have no wish to be looking after a broken MLCer. The more the LBS is on their own, the more detached and strong we become the less appealing the thought of having a broken MLCer back. To me, having a person in that condition in my life would mean go backwards.
So, it may be that if not too much time as passed and the LBS has not become too detached, too strong, too moving forward and living like they are not coming back, the LBS may still find some appeal in the returning MLCer.
Yes, at a point the MLCer will have many needs the LBS no longer has.
I know that i sound a bit Pollyana - but wouldn't it be great if we both were to heal ourselves and reconcile as two healthy people? But, it seems that many (most) MLCers return broken (if/when they return).
Yes, that would be great. And that may happen if, for exemple, LBS and MLCer are divorced, the MLCer has had its crisis and, latter on, reconnects with the LBS. If the LBS remains single both partner may, by then, be happy and healthy. Having a broken MLCer back will see the couple on a bumpy road that may lead to happiness and a great marriage but the LBS will have a tough time, toughter than during replay. If the LBS is happy and healed way before the MLCer is out of the tunnel and has found a new life, I’m not certain the MLCer has a chance. Most likely the MLCer will not have a change in those circumstances. The LBS, on the other hand, will be a very well grounded happy person
Many here believe it is temporary. Many here believe that if they are not nice or compassionate about MLC, including understanding that the affair is a symptom of the character disorder, that the MLCer will not come back to the marriage.
Don’t think MLC is a character disorder. To me it is a mental, psychological and emotional disorder. Don’t even think there is such thing as a character disorder. There are character flaws. For me it pretty soon become irrelevant if I’m not or not nice to my MLCer. I’m nice, in the few times I speak to him, because I’m not a rude person but that is all. I’ve never walked on egg shells and have always told him what I thought.
Personally I think that is a waste of life, but others may feel that it IS their life's calling to be forever devoted to their husband or wife--even if that husband or wife does not return the devotion.
Waiting forever is not an option for me. It never was. The only thing I’ve been waiting for years is the legal end of the marriage. To me it is a waste of time to wait forever. Waiting is more a case of the LBS to be well enough to move on healthy than for the LBS to wake up.
EITHER outcome is very, very sad. It hurts a great deal to give up on the hope that the character disorder is temporary (or temporary enough) and move on. I think that except for the very religious here, where hope is not the driving factor, and religion dictates standing as a rule no matter why or what, our biggest fear is that right after we move on in life and enter a healthy and loving relationship with another person, our MLCer spouse--often the parent of our children--would transform themselves into an ideal character worthy of being our partner again. But it'd be too late, the door closed. This breaks our hearts.
For those with children I understand that there is a want to have the marriage back. In my experience, a point will come when the LBS will no longer care if the MLCer will transform into an ideal character. We’ve moved on, the door is closed. And, at that point, our hearts will no longer be broke, we’ve moved too far, the MLCer and its crisis are in the past.
But nothing that CL has said here conflicts with anything we know about MLC, except that many of us feel MLC is a temporary character disorder, and CL is urging us to consider the possibility that MLC is not as temporary as one might like to think.
MLC is a temporary disorder except of those few who enter it and never come out. But it was not a disorder that was there 10/20/30 years ago. I think we know our spouses and we have not been mistaken for 10/20/30/35 years. A loving spouse that turns into monster had a change. For most the change is temporary. Problem is some of them take too long to be done with their crisis.
And sometimes, with careful nurturing (feeding the squirrel!) the MLCer emerges from this awful process as a battered but better person, and a beautiful reconciliation can occur (after a lot of work.) CL is right when she says this is not a common occurrence. But I would maintain that what RCR has set up here--a primer on MLC and standing--is a unique workshop that can increase the odds of successful reconciliation.
The reconciliation in not a common occurrence. The MLCer coming out of the crisis is the most common result of the MLC. And when they do they normally are, first a battered person, then a better person than before. The thing is, how many of us, once we have become strong, detached, healed and have been living a life without a spouse for ages are willing to have a wreck back into our lives? Not many, probably.
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MLC is a character disorder.
It's an emotional and developmental "disorder", or dis-ease. I would think a "character disorder" would have always been present, not suddenly after a bomb drop.
Many here believe it is temporary.
Temporary is a relative term.....it is a process. But yes, those who are knowledgeable through study and reseach have said it's temporary.
Many here believe that if they are not nice or compassionate about MLC, including understanding that the affair is a symptom of the character disorder, that the MLCer will not come back to the marriage.
Being understanding, nice and compassionate about MLC is part of the Unconditionals.....ways that everyone should be treated. It is for Self growth. The MLCer returning to the marriage is too much of a focus on an end result.
Many here believe (want to believe but are conflicted, often) that the MLCer will one day heal him/herself of their character disorder and will be a full partner (not a patient or child-like character) in a mutually committed and closed relationship.
Who else is going to heal them? From RCR's coaching archives.
You aren’t going to mess up his crisis—it’s his crisis and if anyone is going to mess it up, it’s going to be him and if anyone is going to get through it, it’s going to be him.
Each LBS has to decide for him or herself how long they're willing to wait for that to happen, and if they trust themselves to recognize that they aren't being used again by the MLCer during a reconnection (as opposed to a touch-and-go or cake-eating), and that they trust themselves to let go of the pain caused by past transgressions.
A reconnection is part of the continuation of Touch and Goes. And, yes, forgiveness and the Unconditionals are very important.
because there is a significant chance that the MLCer may never come back to the relationship as a healthy partner.
It is true they "may" not return, but what is your evidence that there is a "significant" chance they will not?
Personally I think that is a waste of life, but others may feel that it IS their life's calling to be forever devoted to their husband or wife--even if that husband or wife does not return the devotion.
Some of us (or at least me) are quite confident in the core values of their spouse or ex-spouse. The difference in my MLC before and after bomb drop is night and day, and I believe MLC is a process. RCR's articles have told the story of my MLCer.....and a few others that I know.
EITHER outcome is very, very sad. It hurts a great deal to give up on the hope that the character disorder is temporary (or temporary enough) and move on. I think that except for the very religious here, where hope is not the driving factor, and religion dictates standing as a rule no matter why or what, our biggest fear is that right after we move on in life and enter a healthy and loving relationship with another person, our MLCer spouse--often the parent of our children--would transform themselves into an ideal character worthy of being our partner again. But it'd be too late, the door closed. This breaks our hearts.
Yes, RCR addresses the reality that often the LBS has moved on in the article Stories and Human Behavior. The article also mentions the process and that it's rare for an MLCer to get stuck.
But nothing that CL has said here conflicts with anything we know about MLC, except that many of us feel MLC is a temporary character disorder, and CL is urging us to consider the possibility that MLC is not as temporary as one might like to think.
CL is focused on the affair. I do not know enough about CL's credentials in the study of midlife crisis specifically, but I do know the credentials of other sources, including the credentials that RCR lists on the home page.
Or that any of us get a say in the matter.
Yes, you get a say. Standing is a "say". Ending your Stand is a "say".
Often the MLCer is truly narcissistic and always was
Then perhaps it's a true personality disorder and not MLC. In MLC, there is a sudden and drastic change at bomb drop.
But I would maintain that what RCR has set up here--a primer on MLC and standing--is a unique workshop that can increase the odds of successful reconciliation.
Yes, RCR mentions this is the blog Hope Expectations and Probability.
I think an understanding of MLC can increase the odds of reconciliation, can assist with the process of reconciliation.
From RCR's article on Acceptance.
To get through this, Acceptance of the MLC process is a requirement.
since nobody has studied MLC and people who skillfully and patiently stand.
Jim Conway has specialized in working with an writing about MLC for over 30 years. RCR lists her research on the home page.
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Limitless, Honor
Reg. your posts on 'Detaching with love" or "Why have a flicking hope when you are truly detaching"
One reason I think one may want to do that...i.e. detach completely but still hope that MLC recovers (not to reunite with LBS.. since that is LBS choice at that time) but often times for the sake of kids.
I am detached (as good as it gets) from my MLC W and I don't want anything to do with her in future, as far as I am concerned. In addition, I am all determined to take good care of my kids, without MLC W and in spite of MLC W", however I do hope that one day she comes out of it so that my kids will also have a sane mother.
Thoughts?
Dr. NO
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I do hope that one day she comes out of it so that my kids will also have a sane mother.
I think that's a good thing to hope for. And it shows what a good person that you are that you're putting your kids first. They're lucky they have one sane parent.
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Dr. No.
Yes. I believe that you are correct.
As I look into the future...I question if I will choose to reconnect with my H - if/when he comes out of it....and if/when he looks back toward me. When I think of my kids....I hope that I can. A happily reunited family would be in the best interest of my kids....my future grandchildren.... That being said...it takes two willing participants to have a marriage/relationship. Currently, that is not the case....so I just let it be. Maybe someday that will change.
And whether or not we can reconcile....I also hope and pray that my H comes out of it. I want my kids to be able to have a caring, loving father.....like they had when they grew up. Not this man/child stranger alien....he is now.
And, rose colored glasses completely removed....the man I loved, the man I married, the man I had three children with....was a really kind hearted, giving person. I'd like to see that person return.....he was a good guy.
limitless
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I just joined this website and since Tracy has posted here thought I would resurrect this thread and see if she gets any hits from our site.