[Trustandlove]

What treasur wrote.

I may be reading things incorrectly, but how I read what Brain wrote about those who say that an MLCer knows EXACTLY what they are doing is that knowing exactly what they are doing implies, as treasur so eloquently put it, that the MLCer is implementing a thought-out evil plan, designed to hurt us.  And I think, and again I may be reading it incorrectly or just unable to express myself as well as I would like to, that what so many are saying is that in many cases there is no overall coherent evil plan, they are carried away by other forces, like an addiction.

Now that does NOT in any way, shape, or form absolve the perpetrator of responsibility.  Explanation isn't an excuse. 

I myself went through a bad period when I was much younger -- at the age when so much is excused because of youth and inexperience, and I hurt people during that time.  But it was about 6 years, so not just a little blip.   And I had some serious amends to make and some serious fixing to do when I "woke up".  Which I did, to the best of my ability. 

At no point did I think  -- "Ha, I'm going to stick it to _______", even while I was doing something that turned out to be hurtful to them.  I had in some way turned off the bit of me that thought about how what I was doing would affect them, and I honestly thought, at the time, that I was doing what was right, I believed things I shouldn't have believed, I could go on.

I'm not trying to justify my actions, I was responsible for them, even though I was 18 when this started (which I now think is still a child, looking at my own children) , and much was a reaction to my own FOO things.  And I don't know where I would be if my family had said "forget it, stay away, you are crap", rather than be relieved that I came to my senses.  Again, that is easier when the perpetrator is young, but still. 

And that is definitely a period of my life that I want to forget about, when I did wake up I tried to clean up the mess as fast as I could so that I didn't have to think about it again.  The only thing that carried over is that at some point I did explain to my children about it, so that they wouldn't hear about it from anyone else, but other than that I have mercifully been able to overcome it. 

Even so, it remains part of my story.

The point is that I DID do what I did, but in all honestly at the time I didn't understand the longer term consequences.  I started waking up when I started to understand things like that.  Now that can also be a factor of just growing up in general, because as I said I was young at the time, but still.  And if finding a way to "package" that time helped all concerned then so be it. 

Now that isn't MLC, but it's the closest I have to understanding what a brain fog must be like.

And I think that the key to my actions being "forgiven" by those affected was that I owned them.  I remember, when I was starting to realise that what I was doing wasn't good, that I didn't want to change course because I didn't want to hear "I told you so".  I also remember the day that I woke up realising that I was willing to deal with "I told you so", and from there things moved quickly.

The final bit of that was that when I really was willing to deal with "I told you so", no one actually said that (even if they probably thought it).  Somehow they must have felt that my remorse was real, and we were able to quickly rebuild from there.

I'm sorry if this sounds simplistic, it's the best I can do right now.   

[Whyus]

I just wrote a Long post with quotes as I seem to be the evil one here because I blame my MLC and NOT THE FOG for her Actions! I then deleted and thought firetruck it, theres no Point. Everything gets twisted here anyways.
Sorry for being honest and open and trying to protect People from years of heartache with (in most cases) nothing at the end except D and more pain. Some dont want to accept the reality and thats fine by me too.

I stand by what I wrote "They know EXACTLY what they are doing" because they do. I didnt realize that such a short sentence could start such a $h!testorm. I apreciate the Input from Shocks sis but she still blames the fog and even blamed her H at one Point for them not being together because he didnt wait!!!!!!! I mean WTF? Sure, he made bad choices but the guy was in total shock and defended himself the way that he thought right att.

If somebody wants to blame the fog and not the MLCer then fine, go ahead. Its not my life, its yours and each to their own.
Have a nice weekend

[Treasur]

WhyUs...nothing wrong with your post. It is how you feel and what makes sense to you about your own experience and what helps you adjust and move forward. Imho that is good enough and our target as an LBS.

Different people have different experiences and reach different conclusions that help them accept, adapt and move forward. And that's ok too. It's the stuff that keeps us stuck for a long time that isn't so helpful imho.

My perspective has undoubtedly been shaped by two things; very little contact or information from a vanisher who remarried, and my own experience of having a not very healthy mind for a while. The latter meant I experienced things in my own behaviour that I never had before and that has probably left me with a different POV on others behaviour too. Which currently works fine for where I am so that's ok too.  None of us have the perfect answers do we? Just good enough hopefully for us. 

[Songanddance]

I don't like the title of this thread. I don't like the word Justification

And quite a few of us didn't like the comment you made in one of your posts on shocksis's thread. 

I hate to be vindictive but I hope that each and everyone of you who is so self-righteous and quick to condemn those who have experienced this crisis end up going through the crisis yourself.

The word" Justification" came out of quite a few of the posts on shocksis's thread and so it seemed expedient late last night when splitting these posts off to make sure that people knew quickly where this interesting debate had gone to.

[Whyus]

WhyUs...nothing wrong with your post.

Thanks Treasur, Brain seems to think that everything is wrong with it as he started a $h!testorm with it. Saying that though, who am I to compare myself with an ex MLCer? I havent been there and hopefully never will go there and so I dont know what it is like.
If he says that they dont know what they are doing then there it is! What more do we Need to know? They are all pardoned and can do as they please because they just aren't themselves.
Sounds like more hiding behind the fog and blame pushing to me!

[Whyus]

I just wrote a Long post with quotes as I seem to be the evil one here because I blame my MLC and NOT THE FOG for her Actions! I then deleted and thought firetruck it, theres no Point. Everything gets twisted here anyways.

It seems like your wife isn't the only one who has a hard time expressing remorse for upsetting others.
Im sorry Brain, I didnt realize that writing "they know EXACTLY what they are doing" could upset somebody. If that upsets you then you obviously still have some work to do. I have never done anything to upset anybody in RL and when im wrong I admit it ALWAYS and always take responsibility of my Actions. Enough already, I dont want to Play handbags here as its totally pointless and helps nobody.
Enjoy your weekend.
I will thank you, Stand up paddleboarding is on the Agenda if the weather is suitable.

[Silver]

I hate to be vindictive but I hope that each and everyone of you who is so self-righteous and quick to condemn those who have experienced this crisis end up going through the crisis yourself. It could easily happen. It isn't unusual for both partners to do so, one after the other, and the fact that you haven't had one yet, doesn't mean that you won't. After all, none of us, including our spouses, had any idea that our spouse would ever experience this crisis so how can you be so sure it won't happen to you? In fact, I think that being so quick to place blame is one sign of somebody who is likely to have a crisis. I'm looking forward to welcoming all of you self-righteous and judgmental people to our world.

Sorry but a bit hard to take anything you write seriously after this. Please think before pressing post button.

[MyBrainIsBroken]

Whatever you say. This is your site. Have a good life.

[Whyus]

What Silver said x10

[1trouble]

I have skimmed through some of this thread and can see there is a lot of heated debate.

So have purposely not read anyone's posts in detail, however I get the general gist of what this thread is about

And I want to add my take on it...

I saw my loving faithful kind husband change within a matter of weeks to someone erratic, manic and distant.
I sat there as he said he felt numb, he knew he loved me and Jet but he couldn't feel it,

I saw him loose an incredible amount of weight in 8 weeks and turn from a muscular man into a puny 6ft 2in shadow of his former self

He didn't sleep, he worked 18 hour days and he did all this eating a pack of ham and some crackers.

I saw sometimes a frightened look in his eyes and the man I knew and I saw him look at me sometimes as if I disgusted him and other times with a blank look as if nothing was being processed behind his eyes.

We have had many conversations (which I have documented on here) in those conversations he has been confused, contradictory and sometimes sounded himself.

I have seen him stand in the living room and look around talking to himself and saying 'this is me, this is the real me, not the $hite I have been doing'.....trying to remind himself of who he is...

I have heard him talk about the OW in cold dismissive terms like a work colleague he doesn't like......without seeing the irony that he married this woman

He has asked me a number of times to help him in genuine despair and other times because he really wants to be ok, but then the fog comes in and there is this look in his eyes and I know, without him saying a word, I have lost him to the fog again.
I remember having a conversation with my BF who's mother was, at the time, suffering from the middle stages of dementia and she said it was a very similar experience, seeing her real mum and talking to her for a few moments only to lose her to the grips of dementia again.....

Over the last four years I have seen a change in him and slowly I have seen a little more empathy, a little more awareness of what he is doing, gone is the mania, the need to drink himself into oblivion, there is more distain for the OW, he has not made and sort of attempt to flirt or fleece me (like he did, every time we met, for the first 2-3 years)….
So I believe he is very slowly coming back

There is so much more I could add, but to summarise, from what I have witnessed with my own eyes, what I have read on here and researched and from experiences from many others who have been in MLC (not MLT which BTW I think is markedly different from a MLC), I have no doubt in saying this....

I truly think this is a mental health condition brought on because of trauma in childhood which has meant the person has been carrying a huge amount of pain throughout their lives which, because it happened to them in a key developmental part of their lives they did not develop the emotional maturing to deal with or even the ability to voice it or ask for help.

At ML most of us experience a feeling of some sort of panic (I know I did and several people in my social circle have) where you start to question your life choices and realise you havent much time left to do the things you have always wanted to do or dreamed of...BUT the difference for someone in MLC is they havent the skills and strength of some of us to process these feelings and turn them into something positive and when they look back at their lives suddenly they are not seeing good childhood memories they are seeing and remembering traumatic one's or very sad ones AND then some other traumatic event occurs or  a significant life change (like kids leaving home, jobs lost etc, health problems in them or someone close) and all this creates the "perfect storm".

And this chain of events leads to a unique type of depression which we all see as MLC.

And I do think it is a unique type of depression and I do think it effects the area of the brain which deals with decision making, long term planning, empathy etc.

And this is a long winded way of saying ................

I do believe in the moment they know what they are doing BUT (a HUGE BUT HERE) they cannot connect this decision to any feelings of empathy, any feelings of rationality or long term consequences.
Its like a child seeing an ice cream seller on the other side of a busy road and deciding they want an ice cream without seeing the traffic and the danger.

When anyone NOT in MLC makes a decision, they do it with a fully functioning brain which allows them to weigh up the consequences, be able to make plans weighing up the long term implications, appreciate the impact on others and to empathise and see another persons point of view.

MLC'ers brains do not function like this when in crisis, they can make decisions yes, very bad one's but whilst in crisis they are unable to appreciate or care about the impact of their choices, 'feel' or even acknowledge the pain they are causing.  This is not an excuse, this is what I have seen and also what you read in the vast majority of stories from 'recovered' MLC'ers and its why I see again and again LBS's questioning whether their spouse is a narcissist.