[Songanddance]

If we are making excuses for MLCer’s choices, why? 

Initially immediately after BD I didn't. I stated it was his problem and he had to sort it. Then as I calmed down I made excuses such as severe depression so that I could have a breather from my hurt, anger and panicstricken state. It happened to be true once I found this site.  I didn't excuse anything he did with OW or said etc to me but I did understand that he was having some sort of breakdown so that I could then rationalise it and learn how to deal with it for me

If we are blaming non-prosecutable things such as the fog/alien/monster, why?
Nope not done that.  Once I learned about MLC depression - there was no point blaming - it just was what it was

If we are blaming MLCer with intense resentment and anger, and no compassion and understanding (it is a monumental crisis), why?

Nope - never had the level of intense resentment or anger except at the very very beginning and especially when OW wrote me a letter three weeks in and when I saw how much H revelled in my anger - I stopped.  I had to - I couldn't continue my profession if I harboured anger. I knew it would destroy me. 

The problem is we can also go too far in compassion and understanding and forget to learn about detachment so that our compassion and understanding comes from a place of detachment where we can continue with our own lives in an emotionally healthy way regardless of the MLCer does. 
 My take

[readytofixmyselffirst]

Hello,

This is a very interesting debate and has many issues. And for the record, I have not forgiven my ex at this time. My feelings towards her are shifting, but I still hold a lot of emotions that I have been working through slowly.

The first part is this idea of fog. Fog limits one, but doesn't eliminate everything. A person in a fog can still see, but just not well. If you are driving in a car and it is foggy, the rational person slows down and is cautious. The MLCer speeds up.

The issue of the OP, doesn't mean the MLCer doesn't know what they are doing is wrong. If they thought it was right or had no ability to differentiate between right and wrong, they would be open and up front with you in the first place.

"How was your day, honey?"
"Not bad at all, changed Ms. Smiths old light with a new one and she was so thankful that she let me examine her personal plumbing with mine."

That's not how it happens and every person that engages in an affair know they are not doing the right thing. The problem is that it feels right in the moment. It fills a void and the emotional and chemical high creates a new attraction. But it doesn't mean the MLCer doesn't know what they are doing.

For example, two men are starving. One sites in front of a store and begs. The other hits a woman over the head with a stick and takes her sandwich. Starvation justifies the actions of both, but one is going to be punished for his choice. Fog or no fog.

I grew up in a loving household. However, responsibility was big. My mom would tells us that she would never lie for us even if it meant we would go to jail. We had to accept the responsibility for our actions, but she would still love us and visit us in jail.

I love my children, but just like my mom I always tell them that they are responsible for their choices. They own it.

I want to be very clear. My MLCer and I will never get back together. I am in a new commitment and enjoying a healthy relationship with someone who I love and adore.

However, I can still love my MLCer and have compassion for her and the choices she made. The difference is that she is still accountable for her choices and lives her life based on those choices. On my side of the coin, I too am responsible for my choices and how I conduct my life. I definitely did not allow the bad behavior of my MLCer to enable or justify bad behavior on my part.

I've learned a lot of the past decade of my journey and how to be more strategic in how I approach things and training myself to respond as opposed to react. To listen carefully, think, and respond. To let go of proving a point to be right in favor of saying my piece and moving on.

To me, the critical aspect is not to worry about the MLCer. They don't come to our site seeking support. Waiting for the day, "Hello, I am an MLCer. Dumped my husband of 18 years and our three children for a crude and rude OM who is a father to three children with three different women. Please help me. Then laugh my a$$ when OP offers the gift of time.

We support the LBSer in getting their life back. To put in place the systems to first financially protect themselves and their children. To engage in activities that take the eye off the crazy MLCer and focus on themselves. This paves the way to healing and filling the void in a healthy manner.

It may take therapy and legal action to make that happen. Everyone has a different situation and needs to respond accordingly. However, the focus and emotional energy should be spent on us as the LBSer. 

LP stated it is his monkeys; his circus. Yes, but often, we are amused by the monkeys and circus. We become distracted to watch the show and tell everyone what we see rather than focusing on ourselves and what we do.

((((Hugs))) to all

Ready

[Treasur]

Nas...anyone blocking you? Their loss. Your honesty, courage and wisdom is invaluable imho.

I was just chatting to another forum member and the phrase that kept coming up for us was about 'bringing reality into the room'. That neither LBS nor MLCer can address their own damage until they do. And our individual defence mechanisms get in the way for quite a while usually.

Imho it is easier for LBS to see their own reality when it carries less emotional residue. And that includes things like blame and judgement...or indeed excuses or denial. Reality has a lot more of 'this is the information I have right now' and a lot more 'I don't know'. And a lot less mind reading hats or assumptions. I don't know why my xh showed no emotional reaction or concern about my life being threatened. I don't know what he thought or felt. I just know what I saw and heard. And what I think is a normal response to something like that by most humans and by someone who shared my life for almost 20 years although it took me a while to trust my own reality bc it was so horrific. But I couldn't deal with it until I looked the reality right in the eye without trying to explain it. Just the facts. And tbh that was hard enough! Now that reality may change if I ever get different information, but right now I can only work from what I see/saw and make my own choices and conclusions based on that.

I believe that anyone recovering from a significant crisis/breakdown needs to bring reality into the room too in order to heal. To reach that simple no BS point that LP described so well that J eventually reached. Where the why's and wherefores and who caused it becomes much less important than this is how it really is and what do I want to do about it. To look at the facts without a pink tutu or a sledgehammer. It is hard as hell for the LBS to get here....it is probably much harder for the MLCer to get here by the nature of the process.

But 'reality in the room' is really the only way to break the cycle for both. The truth in the observable facts without excuse or explanation is hard to excavate sometimes but really can set you free....Jmo.

[Anjae]

I'm sorry, Nas. Their loss.


Mr J told both OW1 and myself that he knew what he was doing was wrong. That he knew it would hurt me. He knew he had got involved in an affair. He also knew that leave would hurt me, but he was going to because he needed to be happy and now it was about him.


"If we are making excuses for MLCer’s choices, why?" - I'm not, and never did. 
"If we are blaming non-prosecutable things such as the fog/alien/monster, why?" - I am not blamming the fog/alien/monster. Those things have an explanation, and serve a purpose, but they are not the reason.
"If we are blaming MLCer with intense resentment and anger, and no compassion and understanding (it is a monumental crisis), why?" - Not sure I understand this question. The blame is on the MLCer. Should the LBS have compassion and understand MLC? Maybe. Maybe not. Each LBS is different. I am not good on compassion and, usually, I feel none towards Mr J. Maybe it a self-protection mechanism.

The LBS did not cause the mess. People don't come to HS because of themselves, but because of their MLCer crisis. It is normal people talk about MLC and their MLCer, since that is what changed their lives.

Asking hard questions, being blunt or concise, that's not necessarily anger yet many here are quick to call it that.

This a million times.

Anger is useful if it drives people foward. Anger becomes a problem if someone gets stuck in it, it becomes self-destructive. I certainly was more productive in certain matters when I was furious. I was also much more tired and depressed.

[lawprofessor]

LP stated it is his monkeys; his circus. Yes, but often, we are amused by the monkeys and circus. We become distracted to watch the show and tell everyone what we see rather than focusing on ourselves and what we do.

((((Hugs))) to all

Ready

Wow is that true!  A long time ago I changed that with my mentees a bit.  His circus.  His monkeys.  So why are you trying to clean the cage floor?  When they would keep circling back and staring at the floor show.

Boy I hope people read and take to heart what you wrote.  This experience doesn't have to mean nothing other than a lifetime of pain. 

Bringing reality into the room, very well put.  And exactly what some dislike others for. 

Lp

[lawprofessor]

OK threads unlocked.  I'm not sure what happened.  It could have been me because I'm an absolute technical moron?!!  Or it could be simply I have fat fingers and don't wear my glasses often enough??

Spank me please

Lp

[Ready2Transform]

If we are making excuses for MLCer’s choices, why?

I did it at first, like most, because I wanted a clean reentry back. The more I learned about his bipolar diagnosis, the more I could blame it on that. In fact, I thought everyone here was dealing with bipolar mania for awhile (spoiler alert: you're not. Some of you may be? Only a qualified specialist could diagnose your spouse, and only if they were treating them one-on-one). I could relate to bvFTD in that way when she felt so strongly that that's what we were all dealing with. When we can't help our spouses, sometimes it feels so crucial to try to help someone - but that too is part of our "fixer" personas and is usually more about us than them.

If we are blaming non-prosecutable things such as the fog/alien/monster, why?

Inability to accept every aspect of the spouse, including their shadow. Cognitive dissonance, once we have a concrete belief about who our spouses are (whether that's who they actually were or that trauma response of idealizing them that some of us know), is one tough cookie.

My xH would say prior to BD that he didn't know what was happening to him. He had a time of awareness after BD2 when he was open to answering questions (before I found this site). He said he knew what he was doing was wrong, but he still felt compelled. The lying, he said, "the more I did it, the easier it got." So I lean with the others that there may be a shadow side coming forward, but they are aware of it, and make choices.

If we are blaming MLCer with intense resentment and anger, and no compassion and understanding (it is a monumental crisis), why? 

Anger phase of grief. It's an important pivot point of change and detachment for an LBS. In some ways it mirrors what our spouses did to some of us at BD, in using their anger (unfounded or self-inflicted) to break the bond enough for them to leave. I'm less critical of LBSs with anger because most of us have very valid reasons to be angry. Ultimately it doesn't do us any good to hold onto it, but I think it is also to our detriment to skip it. The only way over it is through. Also, we eventually change our focus to more positive things. Even when standing, if you move your attention from your spouse to other aspects of your life (GAL) that will ultimately help in transforming the rawness of those harsher emotions. Easier said than done!

As I said, I once thought we all had bipolar spouses, because I was so certain in my research. But we as lay people can only work toward understanding our own personal experiences. Even with our spouses, who we feel we knew inside and out, we don't know the inner workings of their minds. xH was my best friend from age 17 forward. Knew things about me that no one else could ever know. But still, he and I are sovereign beings, and I've had to come to accept, even were when we were at our happiest. It takes a huge burden off to shut the door to trying to creep into their minds. I needed to know what I needed to for closure, and in that sense I know what I *accept*, but truly, I will never exactly know. We are not meant to or we would all have been created with ESP. That is my belief anyway.

I like that "nervous breakdown" was brought up, as that phrase, like MLC, is something that is not recognized by the DSM, yet we all have an idea of what it means. I believe that's why MLC will never be there (and I agree, it's a spectrum, that like COPD is an umbrella of many things that like *are* in the DSM). Limerence (the romantic kind, not the MLC stage) is another one that mentally alters a person by such a large change in hormones and neurotransmitters that they make out of character choices, but is not something they'll ever be on disability for. I have an acquaintance that recently had a stroke, and he's already rapidly building new neural pathways in order to heal. I wonder sometimes if some of these cases here where the MLCer "gets stuck" isn't someone whose neural pathways, after the extreme changes in neurotransmitters or hormones due to andro/menopause, have formed anew and helped concrete the new personality. No clue and will probably never have one! But it's interesting, once detached, to see that the very thing I might have feared happen to them in the past, I welcome to happen to me now. Let those new pathways to healing form! For everybody. Question why you fear letting go and letting God. The answers inside of you about your own life are more important.

[Anjae]

Nervous breakdown as well as burnout are medically accepted and diagnosed here, but those often are diagnosed by a GP, a psychiatrist is not necessary. They are not seen as mental illness, more normal medical issues or neurological issues.

European psychiatrists are sceptical and concerned with DMS-5, Europe tends to use ICD (The International Statistical Classification of Diseases and Related Health Problems) that is run by the WHO (World Health Organization).

Over here several things are seen differently. As they also often are in each European and/or EU country. The other thing is that, regardless of where and what manual is, or isn't used, psychiatric diagnoses are not precise, are often wrong and not even the best psychiatrist in the world is capable of knowing certain things for sure.

Psychiatry is very falible and does not have a good success track record. Same for therapy. If surgeons had such low success track record no one would want to have surgery.

As for strokes, like with everything, there are different types and levels. New neural pathways build, but each case is a case. Some are too severe for recovery or recovery that allows for autonomous life. Grandmother had severa big one, the last one, 3 months before she died, with vascular epilepsy, she recoved tiny motor things, like being able to hold her head on the pillow, but that mostly it. Even if she hadn'r died of pulmonary edema she would hardly had been able to have motor function again.

One of my aunts had three stokes and the other one very mild one. Some things were never recoved even if they had the best care.

I think we sometimes think long time MLCers are stuck. I think many of those aren't. It is just that we weren't used to thing of MLC as something that is so long and to people who can endure years on end of Replay.

[OldPilot]

I think blocking only works in one direction and the person you block does not even know that you have blocked them.

[akjomsviking]

This is the most insightful thread that I've read on this site in a very long time.  Thank you all for sharing your opinions on this topic.  Some of you have discussed this so thoroughly and eloquently!  It is amazing how much self-reflection and personal growth we go through by virtue of being LBS'.

I suspect that one of the biggest hurdles we need to get over is to understand that with the exception of people with legitimate personality disorders - not a huge percentage of the population btw - people who do "wrong" things know they are wrong while they are doing them.  I have a bit of insight into this and I suspect lp does as well because of her profession.  For me it's not for such a noble reason.  I have not always been the man that I am today.  I lived for a long time being very casual with the law and because of that I've known a few criminals and unsavory types.  Most of them know they are doing something wrong, but all of them have very convincing reasons why they do it anyways.  That's been almost universally true in my experience. 

Do you think the man breaking into your house while you're at work doesn't know that what he's doing is wrong?  Do you think he didn't have a bad childhood, perhaps suffer some trauma or abuse, and also see authority figures in his youth breaking the law?  Of course he did.  There are exceptions but nearly everyone I knew while I was living that way had what you could describe as a bad childhood.  That doesn't mean anything to me and it's no justification for anything.  Because I've also known LOTS of people with bad childhoods who would never hurt a fly or break a law.

My MLC wife knew what she was doing.  She wasn't taken over by aliens or some kind of mind-control device.  Yes there were moments of clarity and she would break down and tell me she didn't know why she was behaving that way.  But the OM knew she was married, knew she had kids, and she intentionally and publicly dated this guy and brought my little girls around him for months.  She simultaneously had the wherewithal to hold down a job and keep up her health and spend thousands of dollars on hobbies and trips.  She went to months of therapy sessions with me (all on my dime naturally) where she expressed confusion and claimed she was trying to sort herself out.  It was very frustrating for me because I have known lots of people like that.  They know they are hurting you, they know what they are doing is wrong, but they are going to do it anyways.  It's hard for some of you to understand because (I suspect) you are not that way.

I wouldn't wish an MLC on anyone.  It is obviously painful and destructive.  But let me tell you my sympathy only goes so far because for us LBS' there is a LOT of pain and destruction.  The only difference is that we don't have a bunch of cheerleaders around us shouting Yaaassss queen!!  and telling us that "As long as you're happy..." like that's the end-all be-all of life when you have a home and a family.  She still hasn't suffered any significant social or financial backlash from what happened.  I suspect the fact that MLC'ers can get away with what they do with so little repercussions is one of the reasons this event is so common.  I bet there weren't a lot of MLC's when our great-grandparents were settling the country.