[OffRoad]

The breakup of the family is what is devastating to our children, not the fact that a parent is standing.

I am only quoting this part because this is not true in my case for my D, who was 18 at the time. I was the standard mess for 2 months, then slowly started pulling myself up by my bootstraps, not easy with an in home wallower. After he moved out, I started healing in earnest. One day, I was laughing at Chimp Lady and my D said "Thank God you found that site. I was worried you would wait around for Dad, and that's just not healthy and I was beginning to think you would  never laugh again. I love Dad, but he is broken and I don't want you to be broken because of it."  Long conversation ensued, but my standing WAS devastating to her. Her confident, feisty mother was waiting for a screwed up person to get unscrewed up. That's when I truly decided he's doing his thing, I'm doing mine and if somewhere in the future we find each other and it's beautiful, fine. If not fine.  But that is only my case.

[OffRoad]

Some of this side bar started because a person was angry at their MLCer for what they had done. Another person asked "What if an MLCER doesn't know what they are doing or can't stop themselves from doing it. (Alway possible) It was implied that if either were the case, the LBS has no right to be angry.(this I would disagree with) After all the MLCER is just mentally unwell. It was also pointed out that maybe they know what they are doing, but don't realize the consequences of their actions. (I think this is quite likely, btw)

Maybe they don't remember, or can't stop themselves, or don't realized the consequences. Ok  But the LBS and any family is still collateral damage. We have  loss. We have to survive. Heck, we have to figure out HOW to survive.

My most important LBS lesson:
I get to be angry. I get to be sad. I get to have an opinion. I get to change my mind. I get to feel however I want to feel and deal with it in the fashion that makes sense to me at the moment. If I accidentally hurt someone in the process, I get to try to make it right. No one has the right to tell me how I feel or that their reality is the only valid one or that I'm wrong. They can tell me they disagree and I accept that.

Always acceptable: What you said makes me upset because that is not my experience or reality. I think if you experienced my reality, you might think differently.

Rarely acceptable: This is what the problem is, not that . (Said definitively )

Never acceptable: if you believe/feel that, then you should leave/die/insert over reaction here.

I try to remember this lesson when I have to deal with my MLCer. He also tries to tell me I "should" feel/think something.

[Ready2Transform]

Good points, OffRoad. I need to borrow that list! The "rarely" part is something I need more practice in.

Your daughters words resonate with me because my parents divorced when I was 21/split up at 20. If my dad had entertained even a friendship with my mother, I would have written them both off as cuckoo. It's a good sign that your daughter knows what a healthy relationship should look like, even if she loved both of you and didn't just selfishly want you to work it out for her sake. I knew my mother was unwell and wasn't going to change (not a big personality change there), and I would have never wanted that for my dad. I also accepted when he left his second marriage, even though I really wanted them to be happy together again. They weren't the same people anymore, and there was no unreasonable expectation that they would flip back into the early stages of their relationship.

[Anjae]

Many people (back in the day) were surprised that I was on a standing site, yet I was juggling men, why?

And I arrived years into Mr J's MLC. It was the only place, of the several that existed at the time I come by that I liked. The articles were good and interesting, the threads and the posters diverse, it was possible to share external links, there were discussion threads.

Mr J's crisis may had started years before I come here, but there was still a million things I didn't had a clue about and he was still doing very nasty, horrible things. It is not MLCers, or at least some MLCer, stop doing damaging MLC a little while after BD.

What’s wrong with having hope in the early days?´

There is nothing wrong with hope. Be in the early days or latter on. What we hope for may change with time, from reconciliation/saving the marriage to a good, joyful future for ourselves with or without someone else. Hope is never wrong.

There are, however, times when hope is replaced by an end. For me when I took my grandmother to the hospital for the last time. I knew it was the end. However I did not lost hope that, in the future, medicine and science will be further developed and things will be different for others.

Some do come back, if you are a “lighthouse” I think the chances are better.  I have moved on, happily married, living a completely new life, why do I still believe that standing and hope for return is not a bad thing?

I don't disagreee that being a "lighthouse" may up the odds, but being a "lighthouse" is not for everyone and, at times "lighthouses" go dark and find a new life. You mean standing and hope for return in broad terms or in your case? If in broad terms, I love happy ends and would love to see as many LBS as possible reconciled. But I know that does not tend to happen. As for standing, I see it more as a grace period for the LBS and something that covenant keepers or people with similar beliefs will held for life.

Many of us will cary on with our lives and standing will fade. Some of us may meet the MLCer later on even if we stop standing and even if we have had someone else in our life. MLC takes so long some will date and become single while the MLCer remains in MLC, etc. There are as many variables as LBS and MLCers.

It was RCR’s articles at the time that said 2-7 years, he would be back, and I believed them. Of course MY husband would be on the shorter side of two years,  , so I only had to make it that long. I could do two years.

When I come here the articles had a shorter timeline for MLC, 2-5 years, I think. If 5 was the maximum, surely Mr J that had already been in MLC for a good while would soon be over his crisis.  I already had managed more than 2 years, 5 was around the corner. Except, no, it wasn't going to happen.

When we are left, our whole world as we knew it is turned inside out.  At that point, I don't care who you are, what your bank account reads, how high your IQ is, etc.... you go into survival mode.  You will also say and do things you never thought possible.

This. BD was a very long time ago for me. When I try to remember it, I know the facts, but it becomes harder to remember how I felt. I know I was a mess and everything was up side down because I was not able to think logically. I have no desire to go back to BD times, and like I said on another post, I would no wish MLC on my worst enemy if I had one. Same with BD.

Forgiving end up being easy for me, but I don't have my MLCer around. I don't know what will happen if that comes to be. Maybe the flood gates will open, maybe not.

There are two things many LBS do not manage, but I always managed, eat and laugh. As for angry, I was not angry, I was furious. Truly furious.

[Treasur]

Maybe they don't remember, or can't stop themselves, or don't realized the consequences. Ok  But the LBS and any family is still collateral damage. We have  loss. We have to survive. Heck, we have to figure out HOW to survive.

My most important LBS lesson:
I get to be angry. I get to be sad. I get to have an opinion. I get to change my mind. I get to feel however I want to feel and deal with it in the fashion that makes sense to me at the moment. If I accidentally hurt someone in the process, I get to try to make it right. No one has the right to tell me how I feel or that their reality is the only valid one or that I'm wrong. They can tell me they disagree and I accept that.

Such a wise reminder.
Along with the truth that I am responsible for choosing what to do with how I feel.
Which sometimes means working hard to be honest with myself at least about how I feel. And that feelings are not facts and they move around.

Which brings me back to Acorn's point about the issues of blame/justification etc being more about us and less about them perhaps.
Put simply, most MLCers don't care what we think or feel about their actions. And often superimpose their assumptions and emotions on us. So whether we blame them or excuse them or justify them or not pretty much doesn't matter to them...unless they want something from us or it fits their justifications.

I guess that might change if they have recovered enough respect and empathy to want to talk about what they did or reconnect in some real way. And some may never reach that point so I live on the operating assumption that my xh has not and will not. Until then, it doesn't matter to them imho. And our feelings should not be influenced much by what we think they think or feel either. Again jmo.

But perhaps it really matters to us bc it is part of how we answer the big WTF happened question we all have. And part of trying to find peace with our own past and present life. In doing that, different people will reach different conclusions about it bc we are influenced by our own experience and values and needs, and we may change our minds too with time and events. All of which is ok....as long as it is within spitting distance of healthy reality, we get to choose how we see it all in whatever way serves us best and helps us heal and live well despite what happened. And it is ok too to say idk what I think.

For me...and I speak only for me...I think I am guided now by three things.

I do not want to expose myself to things or people that will damage me. Including my own thoughts.

I value my sanity and rationality so accept that some kind of understanding the incomprehensible is necessary for me even if it has a lot of gaps and I need to be open minded...but not so much that my reality or brain falls out about my past, present or future.

I do not want my life to be shaped by hatred or fear of someone that I loved and valued for so long, regardless of how they feel about me.

All of which for me - rightly or wrongly from others POV - means currently:
I accept but can't forgive without some acknowledgement of what was done.
I can guess at explanations (bc they are a guess based on limited info in my case) without excusing or justifying what is unacceptable behaviour to me by one human to another, let alone a spouse.
I can apportion responsibility - both mine and others - without blame or victimhood bc that is constructive for me and respectful towards the free will of others and the lessons they may learn.
I can accept that there are things I know and things I don't including what it feels like in someone else's head or shoes....and I have the right to choose my own thoughts and shoes.

[lawprofessor]

Well today is my self imposed deadline for my involvement on this thread.  I'll close my portion of the posts with a few random thoughts.

I know this thread has been a bit (to some of you very much) a Wild West of jumbled thoughts and opinions and topics with some (lots) of emotion and steam, messy and even difficult.  Others enjoyed it. 

Please consider taking away from this that we are all different and giving voice to needs and thoughts helps some work though sticky areas.  Where one is today, may or may not be where the person will be later today or even tomorrow.  And that's perfect.

In this, it matters who we surround ourselves with in all aspects of our lives.  Depression can be soul sucking and contagious almost.  Surrounding oneself with depressed people, I always find, trends to pave the way to sucking me down that rabbit hole.  Surrounding oneself with people too willing to enable slows ones ability and or desire to stand on your feet with pride, dignity, and self respect, again in my experience.  It handicaps ones ability to take ownership and steer their own course in life.  Everyone needs a bit of powder on their backside at times.  A steady diet of it leaves one in a cloud of powder and victimhood much like the well discussed mlc fog, in my opinion.

It's a hard life to be a fixer.  A carpenter who spends his life building everyone else a home is still homeless at the end of the day, the week, the year.  Nobody hires a carpenter to build a home and gives him a room in the house for repayment wanting him to live there forever.  People want the carpenter to leave when the house is built because they don't need him anymore.  Don't neglect yourself and your needs and end up homeless.

Do one thing new every month.  Or week if your more high energy and have the time to do so was always my goal.  It gives you a new challenge and helps build self confidence.  Even if you end up disliking it, you've learned something.  Plus it gives you something else to talk to people about.  One of my ladies got her first Brazilian wax having no idea what all that would entail.  Totally knocked the thought of her ex out of the conversation for hours.  Small, big, whatever.  Plus it gets you off the forum, and you'll have something new to say when you return that may just distract others for a bit. And you'll have accomplished something which is important for many people. 

I used to describe paving the way as the biggest waste of time I could imagine for a recommendation on this forum.  I still think that.  LBS's have too much to do to first survive and then to rebuild their lives in my opinion, to worry about paving a path for the possible return of someone who has no desire right now at least to be there.  Bad for fixers to give them something to do for another instead of for themselves and their children.  Distracting from the real work that needs to be done.  That doesn't translate necessarily to mean filling the path behind you with boulders unless you want to of course.  As well, in my view naturally, if we have to face forward and hack our way through the jungle to getting healthy and healed and building a life, it's not too much to think those who wish to follow at some point can't make the effort to walk through some tall grass.  If they are going to return, they will, tall grass or not.

Time is a gift.  But it doesn't stand still.  If you're standing still for too long, time is passing and your gift is ticking away, wasted.  Yes, everyone is different and some need more time than others especially at different stages but that doesn't mean sitting down in hell complaining about the heat has to be a life long career unless you choose it to be.  And then it's your responsibility to NOT lure or build cushy places for others to sit down next to you just because misery loves company and you don't want to be alone in misery.

Choices.  That's what we are left with.  Make your choices with your eyes wide open.  Take care of yourself and your children first.  Spend your time looking forward not over your shoulder. 

That's my suggestion. 

Best to you all.

Lp

[Treasur]

Thank you, LP.
There's a lot in this that speaks to just where I am. Even if it took me an irritatingly long time to get here  ....so I really appreciate your sharing your learning in the way you have here.
Time and tall grass, just as you say.

[Silver]

(I believe this thread is locked again by mistake, so I'm unlocking it now)

[One day at a time]

A bit late to the party but very interesting thread indeed... It is clear that people in HS are at different stages and have different views on what has happened to their spouses, responsibility, blame, etc so I guess it's only normal that certain topics cause heated debates but I actually think it's quite helpful as people can see there's no one size fits all..

I could give a long explanation as to what I think about what my H has done, is he responsible or not, etc.. But today I feel none of it matters. He's gone, I'm alone and it's up to me to find a way to make my life better.. If he ever wakes up and wants to talk to me, I will let him say his piece for the sake of the 15 years we spent together.. Will I care about what he has to say? Who knows! Today he's not here and it's very unlikely he'll me here tomorrow.. or next week.. or next month..
The fact that others have returned, doesn't

[terrified_in_TN]

Wow, guess I am late for the party.  Everyone has packed up and went home already.  But since I was mentioned a few times, I'll weigh in even if everyone has gone home.

I spent the holiday weekend visiting with my brother, my cousin (also a LBS who has NO IDEA about this site), and a cousin by marriage I've never met.  So I missed out on this discussion.

As I have stated before, my situation is slightly different in a lot of ways.  But chiefly I WAS the OM in my ex's first marriage.  Maybe I am living my Karma now, after all I DID participate in the breakup of a family (I'm not taking sole blame here, it takes two to tango, but I accept my part in it).  I was young, naive, had extremely low self-esteem, and only valued myself if I was in a relationship, which in those days was extremely rare as I was so introverted as to be alone most of the time.  My, my, my, how things change.  Sound like I'm justifying why I did it?  Maybe.  But I do accept the fact that I DID.  Although I didn't FULLY appreciate the consequences of my actions, I am not going to say I was in some "quarter life fog".  I knew it was wrong.  But she had me convinced their marriage was over anyway.  She conned me pretty good.  You know what, I STILL had a choice, and I chose poorly.

What I am about to say is going to piss off a whole lot of folks, and I don't really care.  I am not angry-I am just speaking MY truth.  You might get the wrong impression that I do not care for 'standers', or that I think they are in some way 'wrong'.  Couldn't be further from the truth.  Actually, I have the highest admiration for covenant-keepers.  They have a level of commitment that I can only dream of aspiring towards.  But you see, I can NEVER be one.  My first and only marriage started with lies and deceit, and although I'm not really religious, if I understand scripture as I *THINK* I do, then technically I am already an adulterer.  So even if I WANTED TO, its not an option for me.

LP was right.  I do feel deceived.  Maybe somewhat by RCR, but more so by the general attitude of the forum.  YES, RCR has stated that MLC takes TIME, and has stressed that it take a lot of it.  Many times when probing for the odds, back then we were greeted with replies that blatantly stated "there are no reliable statistics", but yet heavily intimated that most, if not all MLCers do eventually want to return.  I think just like LP, that does a HUGE disservice to those who arrive confused, hurting, and are in enormous pain to the point of being frozen from making much needed decisions, and possibly quick action to secure themselves.  I am one who Divorced quickly.  It didn't prevent financial damage, but it sure mitigated it.  I am one of the lucky ones.  Not to get into my story too much, but these days I have recovered financially, and actually doing better in that respect than when I was married.  My ex is on welfare.  She still owes me money for medical bills due to our d's broken arm last year, which I warned HEAVILY about when my ex abruptly quit her job (and caused the kids to lose health insurance, which I quickly secured).  Rumor has it that her life isn't quite the dreamy fantasy she thought it would be.  Not that I ask questions, because I don't.  People just offer me up info without prompting.  But I digress...

I have also found quite the obvious bit of contradiction in this site, or at least the forum.  I didn't notice it at first, but its obvious to me now.  Anjae, I'm going to use you as an example since you mentioned I jumped in an R without enough time to self-reflect...I thought we all process at our own pace, and it takes as long (or as short) as it takes for each of us individually?  Since I jumped into an R too soon, let me ask....how long is the proper amount of time to wait?  I thought that was different for each of us?  You don't even KNOW me, so how would you know whether I've had the proper "alone" time or not?  Again, not picking on you, just making a point.  For the record, it WAS too soon for me.  I got out of that r and got into another one not too terribly long after that-with a fellow member of this forum.  Again, would you say I've had enough time now?  Still too soon?  Being frank, its nobody's business but mine.  I DON'T post details of my r on this forum, because opinions are like a-holes....everyone has one.  For the record, MY truth is this:  I PREFER to be in a r.  I've spent enough time "alone" in my life.  Don't think I need any more of it.  The difference this time?  I don't NEED to be in an r for my self worth.  I know my deal-breakers, and they are firmly in place.  I know what I will tolerate, and won't.

Myself, and my SO (who is taking a self-imposed hiatus from this forum) have come to the same conclusion:  This place helps a lot of people...at first.  But after a period of time becomes unhealthy and I would dare say quite damaging for MOST.  Its almost to the point I question who the sane people are.  Again, I don't speak for ALL, but for SOME I certainly think those that find this site, hang around for a few months, get their footing back under them and leave to never be heard from again probably are more healthy than those that hang around for years, possibly decades discussing MLC.

There are those here who would like nothing more than HS to be a landing spot of only like-minded people.  And I can almost see wishing those of us who don't drink the cool aid from being prevented from having a voice.  So they have their own safe place where they can wait like the lady of shallot without having to be presented with the ugly truth of the likelihood of a desired outcome is unlikely.

And by the way, I am not being accusatory here thinking myself as better than anyone else.  I TOO have done the VERY things I am posting about.  This place has been unhealthy FOR ME.  Its my own fault, but again, I do feel highly mislead.

So why am I still here?  Well, I'm not like I used to be.  But every once in a while I HAVE to speak my truth in the hopes it helps just ONE person.  You see, not everyone here can possibly be the victim of MLC.  There ARE other possibilities, and I speak to those that might be dealing with something else entirely.  I stand firm that although I googled the right 'terms' to find this place, I wound up on the WRONG forum.  I still believe in my case although there might be a sprinkling of MLC in there, I am dealing with something entirely different, and I KNOW there has to be others like me.

Lets see in my tenure we have blamed MLC on...

Brain chemistry
bvFTD
identity crisis
BiPolar
DID

I'm sure I'm leaving out a whole laundry list of other things to 'blame' it on.  Yet, the one thing I don't recall ever being blamed here, is couldn't it be a simple as it came down to a CHOICE that our ex/spouses made?  Nope, can't be that....got to be some reason for it-see list above.  Got to be something wrong with them.  If only we can figure out what it is, we can find a cure!  Sorry, I don't buy it any more.  Not for the majority.  I'm sure in some cases you can find a medical diagnosis, but thats not what I'm talking about here.  Its akin to 'analysis-paralysis', something that even RCR warned heavily about, yet here we are....day after day, month after month, year after year still trying to figure out what happened and what went wrong.  I submit it doesn't matter what went wrong-but it is time to accept that something did go wrong, and there is nothing you can do about it.  You much better off pulling yourself up by the bootstraps and gathering yourself together as quickly as you can.  If you don't, there is a good chance they will break you....financially, emotionally, or even physically.

I realize I added very little to this discussion, so I'll just wrap up and say YES, in the vast majority of cases, they know what they are doing.  Hell, I've done some pretty horrible things in my life that I am TERRIBLY ashamed of, and I STILL knew what I was doing.  I am sure you can find the odd case here or there where there is some extenuating medical explanation of why they don't, but I akin those to the 'temporary insanity' pleas in a court of law:  While I have no doubt there are those who have suffered and should not be held accountable, that is extremely RARE.

I also believe they are indeed responsible.  If you can't defend it in a court of law, then its not a valid excuse:  Oh, they aren't responsible for robbing that bank, they were in a fog!  Sorry, doesn't fly.  Again, if there is a credible, verifiable, medical excuse then maybe.....otherwise, YES they ARE responsible for their actions.

Thanks my take anyway.  Don't take it personally.  These are MY thoughts, feelings, and MY TRUTHS.

-T