[Treasur]

Isn’t it funny how language can obscure accuracy was my first thought….
Bc actually you don’t ’have to’
The words we use can somehow skip over the real problem in problem solving sometimes.

Different people might want you to, or find it easier if you did, or think you should, or say other people do, or that they would if they were you…but you don’t have to actually. You just need to understand how you feel, accept that it’s ok to feel that way and that there may be consequences of having a boundary. Which of course includes that others might not like it. I think you are being commendably clear eyed in seeing that.

We all know that what happened to us, what others did to us to meet their own wishes, was as damaging as being seriously assaulted. Maybe worse tbh. Would people say we ‘have to’ socialise with someone who beat us up or raped us or stole from us? Probably not. Odd.

Funny too how all the heat and energy got focused on you….what you should or shouldn’t do or feel or need…and not much at all on your xh or ow based on what you said. When as a ‘parental’ event, the obvious first presenting solution is that the person who is not a birth parent eg ow should not attend?

 I suspect a lot of LBS parents here, even those with adult children, will be familiar with that dynamic, where the ‘safe’ parent is told they ‘have to’ bend and suck it up so the kids can avoid conflict with the not so safe parent who has a track record of putting their own needs first after all. That the LBS is expected to be the grown up in the room while everyone else not so much. I imagine it might even feel like a bit of being blamed unfairly or victimised all over again actually…if it does, i’m sorry.

Not a child owner so no solution to offer  And I’m not sure you need one….i have no doubt that you are wise enough to choose your own.

What I hope though is that, underneath all the heat and fury, the conversations with your daughters may have sown some seeds of understanding even if they are small ones. What did strike me is that, I think, your pov is different about socialising with xh vs ow? Is that accurate? And do you know why you feel that way if so? Don’t misunderstand me….i am not saying you should or should not feel anything different from how you feel….but it has been my experience sometimes that my own gut boundaries have clarified something that turned out to be quite helpful in my own process of shaking my jigsaw pieces into place. Just a thought.

So, no advice.
Just wanted to say I (we) hear you and we get it and it’s ok for you to feel however you damn well feel 

[FrenchHusband]

I suspect a lot of LBS parents here, even those with adult children, will be familiar with that dynamic, where the ‘safe’ parent is told they ‘have to’ bend and suck it up so the kids can avoid conflict with the not so safe parent who has a track record of putting their own needs first after all. That the LBS is expected to be the grown up in the room while everyone else not so much. I imagine it might even feel like a bit of being blamed unfairly or victimised all over again actually…if it does, i’m sorry.

Not a child owner so no solution to offer  And I’m not sure you need one….i have no doubt that you are wise enough to choose your own.

Hi Evermore,

I am sorry for you that, even 5 years after BD you "have to" face still hurting situations even for moments that should be happy and provide good memories like birthdays. And also I am happy for you that you are able to get and see positive outputs and M's support.
As a child owner I won't offer to you a solution but a  different perspective.
From my point of view, a big part of the topic is related to boundaries, what we can accept and what we can not accept.

People under MLC have usually a terrific way to set up boundaries : when they are upset with something, they shout, they raise the voice, they blame, they make a mess of the normal adult conversations : what we call "monstering". It is very childish, very teenage-ish but... it works. We LBS learn sooner or later to NOT wake up Monster and to NOT feed Monster. It is the same for our children : when they are confronted with a parent under MLC and Monstering, they usually avoid the conflict and they learn how to walk on eggshells.

We LBS, instead of this "strong" approach, learn the "soft" approach to set up boundaries : few words, no projections, no blame, no scream, clear communication. It is an adult way of handling things, but this may be considered as "weak" and "changeable", mayn't it ?

Your initial boundary was "not in the same room/place with OW", right ? And it is a reasonable boundary IMO. If you want to keep it or enforce it, it would be fine IMO. After the initial plots from D24, you even accepted to lower your boundaries to "ok to be in same room with OW with some initial conditions of big family presence".

From my point of view, this situation is an opportunity for you to reaffirm to your Ds (and sister ?) what is your boundary, and also that lowering your boundary for exceptionnal events (birthdays, marriages) would NOT mean you lower your boundary for everything. Assertivity is a way to let no room for unfounded assumptions.

[Reinventing]

I am torn about this issue. On the one hand, my visceral reaction is the same as yours and what others have said. On the other hand, it gives OW a lot of power in ones life that her mere presence can mean missing out on important events in ones daughter's life.

I'm not offering any insight here, just ruminating on this, yet again, painful situation that the LBS is faced with as a result of the MLCer's choices.

Some speak of things such as acceptance, yet don't accept that the MLCer, as a separate adult human being can have another person(s) in their lives.

I know my ruminations may not be helpful. I can certainly say that the situation is hurtful for the LBS, that part is for sure.

......would NOT mean you lower your boundary for everything. Assertivity is a way to let no room for unfounded assumptions.

I agree with this--good idea from FH.

[Evermore]

I knew writing here and considering all your thoughtful replies (thank you H&F, XY, UM, Treasur, FH, Reinventing) would help me put my thoughts in order and sort through them.

Isn’t it funny how language can obscure accuracy was my first thought….
Bc actually you don’t ’have to’
The words we use can somehow skip over the real problem in problem solving sometimes.

Different people might want you to, or find it easier if you did, or think you should, or say other people do, or that they would if they were you…but you don’t have to actually. You just need to understand how you feel, accept that it’s ok to feel that way and that there may be consequences of having a boundary. Which of course includes that others might not like it. I think you are being commendably clear eyed in seeing that.

We all know that what happened to us, what others did to us to meet their own wishes, was as damaging as being seriously assaulted. Maybe worse tbh. Would people say we ‘have to’ socialise with someone who beat us up or raped us or stole from us? Probably not. Odd.

Funny too how all the heat and energy got focused on you….what you should or shouldn’t do or feel or need…and not much at all on your xh or ow based on what you said. When as a ‘parental’ event, the obvious first presenting solution is that the person who is not a birth parent eg ow should not attend?

 I suspect a lot of LBS parents here, even those with adult children, will be familiar with that dynamic, where the ‘safe’ parent is told they ‘have to’ bend and suck it up so the kids can avoid conflict with the not so safe parent who has a track record of putting their own needs first after all. That the LBS is expected to be the grown up in the room while everyone else not so much. I imagine it might even feel like a bit of being blamed unfairly or victimised all over again actually…if it does, i’m sorry.

Not a child owner so no solution to offer  And I’m not sure you need one….i have no doubt that you are wise enough to choose your own.

What I hope though is that, underneath all the heat and fury, the conversations with your daughters may have sown some seeds of understanding even if they are small ones. What did strike me is that, I think, your pov is different about socialising with xh vs ow? Is that accurate? And do you know why you feel that way if so? Don’t misunderstand me….i am not saying you should or should not feel anything different from how you feel….but it has been my experience sometimes that my own gut boundaries have clarified something that turned out to be quite helpful in my own process of shaking my jigsaw pieces into place. Just a thought.

So, no advice.
Just wanted to say I (we) hear you and we get it and it’s ok for you to feel however you damn well feel 

As usual Treasur you have dug straight through and found the nugget that needs examining. The crux of the issue.

I explained what I am feeling about having to be in the same room as xH and OW… but not WHY I feel that way. And for me it’s an important thing to explore. Because this from Reinventing is the ‘place’ I am aiming for these days:

Some speak of things such as acceptance, yet don't accept that the MLCer, as a separate adult human being can have another person(s) in their lives.

Accepting that he has a right to live his life as he wishes, which includes accepting he gets to choose who he spends his time with. Who he loves. Who he wants to grow old with. Because I do believe I should accept these things. I do love him and I do wish the best for him. If that means he lives a life without me (much) in it (as we do now), that is his choice to make. I wish him well. I have chosen this as how I want to respond to his choices. It is being the person I wish to be.

Intellectually I am mostly already there. Emotionally… still a ways off. It’s still very painful for me.

For some ‘part of me’ it’s still unbelievable even. Because I know the bond/connection we had/have is still there for some ‘part of him’ as well. But he has made his choice. I believe he even made it twice. The first time was in MLC-run mode. The second was more considered but I believe still ‘MLC influenced’ (in that it would be just ‘far too hard’ to ‘roll everything back’ now  ).

From BBHelp comes this timely reminder about what GAL really ‘is’ (thanks keepfighting for digging this up at the perfect time, I haven’t read BB in a long time but always found him inspiring):

… We humans HATE change…we fight against it, we rage against it…we try so hard to avoid it.  The reality is that “We don’t change when we see the light…we change when we feel the HEAT”.   So to me GAL=Making the Changes Necessary to Adjust to your NEW Life...and learning to Embrace the Change.”
…
“Getting a Life to me means…Living YOUR Life.  It doesn’t mean joining a gym, going on trips and dating because your spouse is lost in the fog.  It means that your life is forever changed…and it doesn’t matter that you didn’t want it to.  To me it is about putting your focus on the right things and moving forward…because it is the only way out.  So if gyms and vacations help find the new you in there…good for you and go for it.  Embrace this time…not because it is fun…because it is inevitable.  So the question is what will you do with it.  Will you spend it in a funk, will you spend it in denial, or will you spend it building yourself, your family and your world into something you will enjoy in the end.  It took me years to really embrace Getting a Life…but I thank God every day that I did.

Emotionally I am still “raging against the change”. My feet and head, and even heart, are making great progress (I think) in moving forward with building a new life for myself. ‘I’ve seen better days’ (thank you again Bernard for the great thread titles ).

Part of being able to do that has been learning to ‘take my eyes off him’, as we are told to do. Took a while (years!) but in my mind he is now (for the majority of the time) ‘over there’. Over there is always ‘up and over to the left in a fogging/misty/out of focus’ place in my mind for some reason (I wonder why that is and if there’s any significance?).

I think though, that the ‘taking my eyes off him’ has allowed my brain to emotionally think that he is ‘still there’ as he was… just ‘not here right now’. That he’s working away. Or on a holiday. Lately, because he’s so so far away these days, so distant, in my brain it feels like he’s died. I’m sure it’s a protective thing. And I’ve used it to my advantage because it’s allowed me to do the moving forward that I’ve done.

But it’s not reality is it. In reality he IS still living. Just not with me. This whole big long post boils down to the fact that, as Treasur pointed out, I don’t have a problem with being in the same room as xH. I have a problem with being in the same room as xH WITH OW.

Because I don’t want to SEE.   

^ crux

My poor little brain thinks my heart will explode if it SEES. 

I’ve been able to get along up until now without having to. There’s been no real HEAT until now. I do think now though, that it will be important for my healing and for my continued moving forward, to SEE. To look reality in the face and truly accept that this is where we all are. To no longer be afraid. I think I will be able to at some point soon. I think it’ll be good for me (after I work through the pain it’ll cause). It’ll also make it easier for others so that’s a bonus.

Sorry for length. It was important for me to set it out in order and in full.

[Reinventing]

Intellectually I am mostly already there. Emotionally… still a ways off. It’s still very painful for me.

Yes, if there's one thing I've learned is that our emotions lag behind, painfully, woefully, so.

[Biscuit]

Evermore,

Not meaning to hijack your post but some of what you wrote really resonated with me.
Whilst W was off with OM, introducing him to mutual friends, entertaining him our house, taking him to events (which we had planned to go to as a couple), I didn't have to physically see him. But obviously the brain does a very good job of seeing and imagining anyway. For that time I kind of compartmentalised that part of her life, as kind of being away, like you say.

The interesting part for me here is that W had introduced OM to everyone except me. Friends had accepted their relationship as friends do I suppose.
Some months ago W asked if I wanted to meet OM . I said yes as part of our agreement in mediation was that any potential new partner would be introduced before meeting our kids (which she ignored and just went right ahead having him over for weekends). I made it clear that the terms of our agreement were that I should have met this guy before he met the kids, but yes I wanted to meet this person, as I thought it was important to know who my children were interacting with and possibly being left alone with.
I also said I was going to have a proper chat with OM not just as part of a group but sitting down man to man. By that stage I was absolutely dreading meeting this person - but had mentally prepared myself. That was really hard, building myself up to meet the man that my W now loved instead of me. It took a couple of weeks, then I said - Mrs Biscuit, I'm ready. Then the weirdest thing happened, the OM was gone. I'm not sure if it was him feeling intimidated with meeting me, her being scared about me meeting him - one to one - where her BS might be revealed ("Oh, my ex, Biscuit is such a horrible person etc") then he realises I'm not Voldermort. But that was it - he evaporated, never to be spoken about or seen again.

Anyway, sorry to hijack, but I don't think I wrote about this at the time and it felt (kind of) relevant, if only that I felt true dread about spending time with this person, and built them up to be Arnie or Leonardo DiCaprio in my brain but in the end I think he just legged it rather than get involved with a difficult conversation.

[Treasur]

Well, that makes complete sense to me, Ever.
Tbh I recognise that feeling all too well. I have it when I visit my mother who has advanced dementia. I had it this week clearing out an old laptop full of divorce related files. I know both of these things are reality, but I don’t want to SEE them bc they make my stomach lurch and my breath stop. Like you, I have done well to make a life with those things in the corner of my eye 
Is it a kind of PTSD residue? Idk. Maybe it’s just how our human brains cope with living despite great pain and loss. Our brains are remarkable quirky and creative things I think. 

I get too that feeling of he’s somewhere ‘there’…..I think most people who have experienced bereavements know that feeling. It’s an odd one but somehow makes sense, doesn’t it? We don’t always talk about it bc we know it’s not true exactly, but it feels true enough to go on with to us. I think my h lived in my head for a good couple of years long after I’d seen him. And then tbh, as I posted here, it made sense to me to pretty much think of it as if he’d died. My feelings and struggles were much the same. I intellectually knew he hadn’t, but it felt as if he had; I felt widowed. (Didn’t share that much in RL either tbh bc it felt a bit nutso. But made sense at the same time). Easier in my situation with a vanisher and no children, of course.

So, makes sense.
You do you
See (or not) when or if you’re ready
But I hope being able to put your finger on it, while maybe unsettling in the short term, will prove helpful to you.

[hopeandfaith]

After hearing about your ‘why’s’ Ever, I am curious as to what your D’s ‘why’ is.  Why doesn’t she want to be around ow?

[forthetrees]

Now you´ve got me pondering whether radical acceptance requires being in ow´s presence or if you can reach radical acceptance and not have to be in her presence. I´m not sure that the acceptance requires putting yourself in her presence. Kinda like you can accept that burning coals are really hot without having to step on them barefoot or you accept that gravity is a force without hurling yourself off a building to prove it. All that to say that I don´t think you need to SEE it to reach the next level of healing. I wonder if your D could have invited her dad for appetizers and you for cake and then the crossing of paths would be a non-issue. She does need to take into account your feelings and having the attitude of "get over it" is not helpful.

[Reinventing]

Now you´ve got me pondering whether radical acceptance requires being in ow´s presence or if you can reach radical acceptance and not have to be in her presence.

I don't think it requires being in her presence--some never have that choice--but I wonder if not shying away from being in her presence means the LBS is not handing over so much power to the OW/OM in what the LBS does or doesn't do.

I still remain torn about all this. I read all of our thoughts and part of me thinks, why does OW/OM get to insert themselves in our lives? And then I remember that is our former spouses who were the ones that broke their vows to us, not OW/OM. I then think, OW/OM should be disinvited to events. And then I remember that I only have control of me and my actions.

In the end, I still come back to the power it gives OW for her presence to dictate what the LBS does with their own family. And that rankles me the most, and I land on doing what I would normally do if she weren't in the picture. Minimize her effect on my life and decisions.

And it doesn't hurt to think about the OW seeing the LBS interact with their children and realize that she doesn't have that long history, memories, and ease that parents have without even thinking about it, they just do. But that is the part of me I try to not entertain in decision making.