[kikki]

Hi onlyjo
You're right - it's so sad how their crisis affects so many people - the ripple effects just keep on and on

My clinger has had a change in behaviour too.  We still have a lot of contact because of running the business together, but his obsession with me and being around me is waning.
It kind of reminds me of the very early days where even though I saw him every day, he wouldn't come within a four meter radius of me (it was as though I was on fire and he was terrified of me).

Not sure what is happening, and I am reading between the lines, but I suspect he is waking up ever so slightly and can see that his insistence on living his new life and seeing so much of me is just bizarre.
So in recent months, he has not been spending large amounts of time hanging around my house. This means he sees even less of the boys too.

Where to next, I do not know.  Hope you're doing okay too. I don't know what I would have done without finding this forum either 

[kikki]

http://depression180.com/terry-real/

[UKStander]

I've got to find the time to listen to this, Kiki.  I'm a BIG fan of Real's I Don't Want to Talk About It. It goes to the very root causes of mlc like no other book. But be warned, once you read it, you will realise just what your spouse is up against on the road to complete healing. ALL self-esteem props must be dropped. That buried pain must come forth.

I think sometimes it's like a boil. Unless you get the puss out, you're never going to get full healing of the wound. Don't take back a half-healed mlc-er!   

[Anjae]

Don't take back a half-healed mlc-er!   

But many of us will take back, if not a half-healed MLCer, at least one that is not fully cooked. They return broken.

Regarding male depression, my issue with it is that the MLCers I know were quite capable of taking about their feellings (and far better than I am capable of taking about mine), knew how to aks for what they need, knew they were depressed, some even told their so to their doctor and spouse (like mine) and still, they did not nothing about it.

So, for me the problem is not so much that we, or the depressed male, cannot identify that depression is present, but that nothing is done to solve the issue. Therefore leading to all the destruction we have to deal with.

Sorry Kikki, but I have read and listen to tons of stuff about male depression,  yet no one seems to know how to solve it. At least not when it is reaching MLC point. And, at least now, I want solutions. We already know what make depression is and what causes it. Time for someone to come up with a way of mitigate the damages.

[xyzcf]

Thanks Kikki for sharing this link.

Newbies may not be aware of Terrence Real's book on male depression. An excellent resource to read to help understand what depression can be like.

Anjae stated:

Regarding male depression, my issue with it is that the MLCers I know were quite capable of taking about their feellings (and far better than I am capable of taking about mine), knew how to aks for what they need, knew they were depressed, some even told their so to their doctor and spouse (like mine) and still, they did not nothing about it.

My husband was totally opposite Anjae. He never, and still does not talk about his feelings nor would he ever ask for "help". He never told me that he is depressed and I doubt he told his physician for he has never been treated wither with medication or any kind of therapy.

[Anjae]

My husband was totally opposite Anjae. He never, and still does not talk about his feelings nor would he ever ask for "help". He never told me that he is depressed and I doubt he told his physician for he has never been treated wither with medication or any kind of therapy.

I know many men don't speak about it. At least not with their wives. They may, or may not do it with male friends and their doctor. The thing that confuses me is that it does not seem to make a difference it the male MLCer talked or did not talked about his feelings, said or did not said he was depressed.

My cousin who had MLC also talked about his feeling and it was clear to everyone he was depressed. Including to his brother and male friends. Did it prevent his MLC? No, it did not. Even if my cousin's MLC was benign for the patters we deal with here. No OW, no leaving his job, no loosing his home. Just more and more anger, anxiety, then very dark depression and rock bottom.

To my horror, dear xyzcf, I become quite capable of identify male depression, even on male acquaintances just by seeing/reading what they post on their FB walls.

ps - Sorry Kikki, I did not wanted to sound rude. I'm glad you posted the link. It really is that I want the solutions for an already identified issue and I can't find them anywhere.

[kikki]

Anjae - I hear your frustration.

The audio is on male depression, not male MLC.
A far more extreme beast altogether.

It really is that I want the solutions for an already identified issue and I can't find them anywhere.

Sure, we know about this stuff, but I don't know that many people out there have any idea about this information. Including the MC that I managed to get my H to see a few times with me. She had absolutely no idea.

There is that psychiatrist in the UK (can't remember his name) that I posted the audio for a while ago.  He said that the biggest initial clue to male depression was the silence and the withdrawal, then came the agitation and anger.  He is hoping to educate youngsters about this, so that they can get help early, and also accept help (if male).  Guess we will have to wait and see if having that knowledge makes a difference.

At the time, with my H, I had no clue at all what the silence meant. I knew it wasn't good, but had no idea what was about to hit us.

[hobo1]

I really don't believe in any difference between male and female.  It is individual specific.

My xW is incapable of expressing her feelings. Always had been like that.  Not an MLC thing.  In thinking about it, a couple of years before BD, I think she started feeling depressed.  She never said it to me, and has denied it.  But she was never enthusiastic, never.  Never wanted to talk, never excited, never really wanted to do anything.  Never wanted to make any effort.  Never affectionate.  I never thought anything was wrong, but we mirror each other...  I became bored with and frustrated with her emotionless attitude.  I thought it was just life...  but it's not.  It's not normal.  She didnt make friends, I'm sure she was lonely.  She never opened up to me, and I didn't try too hard to make her.

Now she is all excited about going on dates with OM....  i think it was depression...  now, not sure...  perhaps it's masked depression, perhaps not...  I just know she attributed the depressed feelings with me....  they say men deal with depression differently because they have less of a support system....  this goes for my xw...  so yea...  men and women depression, probably the same.

[kikki]

Hobo, you're also talking about MLC, not 'just' depression.

Did you listen to his audio?  More women display 'classical' depression symptoms, but men can do so as well - just not as many as women. 
A higher percentage of depressed men show covert, acting out symptoms, but that doesn't mean that some women won't display this version of it.

He believes it needs to have it's own category in the DSM.
I would agree with him.

[Anjae]

The audio is on male depression, not male MLC.
A far more extreme beast altogether.

I know, Kikki.

Well, for me MLC is a far more extreme beast. Mr J had been depressed twice years before MLC. It was pretty easy to know he was depressed, he accepted to see a doctor and follow doctors orders. There was never any devastation, no OW, nothing like MLC. Mr J was treated for is two pre-MLC depression, was fine after it. It did not prevent his MLC.

When he had is normal depression he did not really become more silent, he simply was dead, no energy, nothing. Juts like normal female depression. Same for my brother who suffers from depression, it is like female one. Same for many other men I know.

So not all men react to normal, non MLC depression, the way Terrence Real says. And some women will do what he says men do, like me.

I'm a bit with Hobo and a bit with you, TR and the English psychiatrist on this one. It depends of the person, be it male or female. In males, given their higher levels of testosterone, it is natural that it may escalate to anger at a point. But the silence is not always there before the anger. It was not there for Mr J. I cannot recall a single moment when he become more into himself, I only recall the agitation and anger.

Since I had seen his normal depression I know it was not like MLC one.

In the Drugs and the Brain course and other neuroscience courses I took we were always told thatmale depression could have different symptoms than female one.

Don't see the need for its own category on DMS. Epilepsy is epilepsy even if it has many different levels and shows in different ways. Depression is depression.

What I would like to see on DMS is MLC.